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Message: #109392, S/15 Mutual UFO Network
Date: Sat, Aug 5, 1995 6:37:01 PM
Subject: #109308-The TRUTH of Roswell
From: BOB SHELL 76750,2717
To: John W. Ratcliff 70253,3237
John,
Sorry, so much of what I have put into the forum has been in private
messages that I have forgotten who knows what.
Simply put, the critter under the blanket in the tent scene has been
estimated by most of the people who have seen the full version of this
scene at "well over six feet", or in the case of metric viewers "around
two meters". Either this guy (or gal, can't tell for the bloody
blanket!) is really tall, or everyone in the tent is really short!
The body you have seen in stills is estimated at about five foot four to
five foot six, and the other one in the first autopsy has been said to
be slightly bigger. Little fellers these aren't.
Admittedly, I have not read extensively about Roswell in the past, and
am a rank amateur in that respect, but nothing that I have read has
mentioned aliens of human size or larger.
I already said that my working hypothesis is that the Roswell crash
happened in June, just as the cameraman says, and that a secret military
unit was on the spot right away, cleaned everything up and departed.
They were on site in a matter of hours because they knew of the crash
right away, either from extensive radar surveillance, or more probably
because they had it shot down. What Brazel found the following month was
a small part of the craft which was blown off in the explosion and was
somehow missed by the first crew, who may not have known that they were
missing part of the craft.
Roswell AACB knew nothing of the actual crash, and released their press
story following Brazel's find. The guys in the secret military group
saw it in the papers and said "Holy s---! Some fool has spilled the
beans." and then came in fast and hard to put in the cover story, and,
just to be sure, came back a couple of years later and got rid of all
the records they could lay hands on.
Anyway, it could be this way. The cameraman, according to Ray, is
absolutely positive that this is the one and only Roswell crash. It
will be interesting to see what, if anything, is on that roll of film
Michael Hessemann recently bought!
Sorry if I threw you a curve, but this is only one hypothesis among many
which could fit the facts. Maybe there has only ever been one crash,
maybe there have been more.
Bob
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Date: Sun, Aug 6, 1995 10:40:21 AM
Subject: #109777-Santilli
From: BOB SHELL 76750,2717
To: Niels Jensen 73510,1371
I'll try to make some sense of this or you.
Ray first saw part of the film about two years ago and determined it was
worth going after. Raising the money (no, I don't know how much) to buy
it was a big problem, and wasn't done until late last year. As I
understand it, Ray did not come into physical possession of the film
until early this year. As to why Ray didn't get the testing done, Ray
doesn't know the people at Kodak in Rochester, and they don't know him.
That's why I volunteered to act as an informal liaison for Ray and Fox
TV to make the connections at Kodak and get this all set up. However,
just to make this perfectly clear, I am taking no money from Ray or Fox
for doing this, other than actual travel expenses for going to Rochester
to be present during the testing.
The window of time in which this film could have been exposed and
yielded an image of high quality, which it definitely is, is probably
rather narrow. I don't know precisely, but will get answers on that
from Kodak when they test the film. My original guess, based on past
experience, is about four years. Maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less.
Once exposed, the image deteriorates rather rapidly, so film must not be
kept too long after exposure before processing.
Cryogenic storage would slow chemical deterioration to a bare minimum,
but has just the opposite effect on sensitivity to radiation.
Astronomers super cool film to make it more sensitive when photographing
distant stars and such. Cold storage of 1947 film is not the answer,
since background radiation would have created very high fog levels,
which are not evident in the film. If we date the film positively to
1947, that will mean that any hoax also dates from around 1947.
The cameraman's name, according to my sources, is Jack Barnett. Whether
that is his real name or simply a _nom de guerre_, I have no idea. I
doubt it is his real name. Interestingly enough, there was a fellow in
1947 who used to make money as a Harry Truman look alike, and his name
was Barnett!!!!!!!
I have not decided that the film is real, nor have I decided it is a
hoax. I'm waiting for the dating first, and then the film itself,
before I make my decision. I have some pretty sophisticated electronic
imaging systems at my disposal, and I am interested in doing some frame
enhancement to see what I can find.
Bob Shell
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Message: #112369, S/15 Mutual UFO Network
Date: Wed, Aug 9, 1995 6:24:18 PM
Subject: Meeting Ray Santilli
From: :Michael Hesemann/SL 100660,3672
I spent the last two weeks in England, investigating the crop circles
(about 100 appeared, mostly man-made) and the Roswell footage. I
interviewed Colin Andrews, reg Presley and, of course, Ray Santilli. On
Friday July 28 and today I spent three hours each with Ray, getting some
of the latest information.
1. Ray is very busy in the moment. He lives about two hours from London,
near Cambridge, and comes home very late and very tired. That's the
reason why he did not have the time lately to surf on Compuserve. But he
gives all of you his best greetings and feels bad that he might let you
down. But, to quote him, "the day only has 24 hours, even if you would
need more..."
2. Channel 4 spoke with the cameraman but did not interview him yet. His
family name is NOT "Barnett". Ray now produced a summary of the
cameramans statement and will release it as soon as he has is lawyers
approval, because of some names involved. The most shocking detail of
the report (which I read) is that the "freaks" (as he calls the aliens)
were still alive, screaming all the night. and that the retrieval team
had to use force to get a metallic "box" out of their hands with they
held closely. "They were protective of their boxes but we managed to get
one lose with a firm strike at the head of a Freak with the butt of a
rifle". One was already dead, three were alive!!
3. Ray showed me the stickers of the film reels. Reel # 52 indeed says
"Trumans ,,," (destroyed further), Reeol # 64 was "July 1947, Autopsy #
2". Indeed the film in the "Trumans..." reel is stuck together and in
the moment they try to find a way to save and restore it.
4. It is true that Ray sold -to get the money to buy the film- footage
to a collector (but NOT a Japanese) but he will try to convince him to
let him use the material for the video edition. He regrets it all now,
but he is not a ufologist nor a scientist and he had to get the money to
get everything started.
5. Recently papers all over the world (Observer, Guardian, Saturday
Times, Sunday Times, Sun, FOCUS (Germany), DER SPIEGEL, People plus more
reported. The telephone is constantly ringing in Rays office. Bob Shell
reportedly did a good research in the authenticity of the footage. The
Japanese gov't official, Johsen Takano, was flown with two others to the
CIA HQ in Langley to view 5 hours of material including the same
autopsies. Prof. Ch.a.H. from Taiwan (Rep. China) said his gov't
received 80 pictures of this being from the US gov't after an official
request. He has access to them and we will certainly try to get copies.
THE SAD NEWS: On the 16 mm US gov't film I brought over from Roswell
(from a widow of a Lt.Col.) is nothing anymore - the chemistry did not
survive the 48 years (it was predicted by two laboratories I consulted
in Berlin).
Greetings,
Michael Hesemann,
Dusseldorf/Germany
--
Page Index
From: mjd@embratel.net.br (Mario Jorge Dourado)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Roswell alien: a new hypothesis
Date: Sun, 06 Aug 1995 22:50:46 -0200
Organization: Empresa Brasileira de Telecomunicacoes
space7@aol.com (Space7) wrote:
>I would certainly agree with you excpet for the fact of what I read in Bob
>Schell's summary of the footage. In part of it he states:
>
>""The last sequence, about seven minutes in length, shows pieces of
>wreckage on a couple of tables. A man, apparently in uniform, whose
>face is not seen picks up pieces of material and turns to various angles
>for the camera. Among the material is sections of (...)
>described as looking like ancient Greek writing. The letters appear to
>be part of the metal, and are raised. They are not recessed or painted
>on.
>(...)
I thought Santilli's film showed only authopsy scenes. But if
there's a man showing pieces of wreckage and strange material, it
is clear that the film is intended to show an alien's authopsy,
not a poor earth creature victim of some kind of radioactive or
genethic experiment.
This way, the film can't be a mistake. It has only one of two
hipothesis: the most important revelation of our century, or a
farse...
According to a magazine, Globo TV Network was intended to show
Santilli's film here in Brazil next August 28th. Let me wait, so.
MJD
Page Index
From: james.easton@stairway.co.uk (James Easton)
Newsgroups: alt.paranet.ufo
Subject: "Roswell" Film: Update
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 00:21:00 GMT
Organization: Stairway to Heaven BBS - +44-181-769-1740
- Host of UFONet
Regarding the recent misunderstandings concerning Kodak's dating of the
alleged Roswell film, with the permission of Quest International and Mr
Peter Milson of Kodak, I have transcribed some of the relevant conversations
which took place. I think you will find this helpful:
Peter Milson: Just to let you know what happened yesterday...basically my
colleagues in Los Angeles, Hollywood, basically said the same as we did. My
colleague in Denmark, who's not perhaps as much experienced and it isn't
such a big market place, had looked at the film, looked at the first bit of
the chart and said "1947".
Now, what I've done this morning is , I've talked to my Danish colleague and
I said, "the edge code you looked at", he said, "yeah", I said, "what did
you say?". (He said) "Well, it's '47". I said, "yeah, but it also could be
'27 and '67".
"Ah...", he said, "didn't realise that", 'cause he's fairly inexperienced.
So I said to him, "OK, go back to the distributor and say you've got more
information and it could be '27, '47 and '67."
Then we have a consistent line and we're all saying the same thing. I mean,
you know, if it is '47 and it's genuine...hey...you know, whatever... I'm
looking forward to seeing aliens (laughs).
Tony Dodd: So are we! (laughs)
Peter Milson: ...and what he's done, obviously I can't blame him for this,
is given me a bit of the leader, or given us a bit of the leader and said
this is the same as the neg, this is from the same bit of film.
Now, the print film is probably all one piece, we assume, but again, we
don't know until we see the film.
Tony Dodd: Has he given you any reason why he hasn't let you see the
original?
Peter Milson: No, and I'm still waiting for them to do that, you know, we've
said to them a number of times, delighted to look at it, but nothing has
come back.
...all I'm saying to anybody is, what I would like to do is to say to
somebody, we've said to them, you know, please send us it, we'll have a look
at it...we can't be more definite. I said to Santilli yesterday, our problem
is, the identification is such that it's '27, '47 or '67, assuming that the
neg...the bit of print could have been printed in '47, you know, if we get
a chance to have a good look at it, you know...a: when was the negative
shot? b: when was it printed, how was it printed, is the edge coding we're
getting...is that a print through from the negative or is that off the
original print...we don't know. It's all those sort of things, so that's why
we're being somewhat circumspect, as they say.
Tony Dodd: Well, absolutely. We've got thousands of readers all over the
world and of course what we are doing, we are quoting you, because the only
way we will accept authenticity is if you tell us so.
Peter Milson: Well, yes, that's what we're trying to do.
[End]
========================
Bob Shell, a CompuServe subscriber who is also an eminent U.S. photographer
and photographic consultant, has established a good working relationship
with Ray and has also now persuaded Kodak to date the film conclusively by
undertaking a destruct test on one of the original 16mm film frames. Ray has
agreed to this on the basis that none of the images which show the alleged
ET are destroyed.
This is scheduled to take place shortly and will hopefully definitively
determine what we are dealing with. Either the alleged 16mm film will not
be forthcoming, or the film stock will be dated beyond dispute.
There are many anomalies with the story of the film's origins, acquisition
and processing and these are now documented. It has become clear that much
of what was purported to be on the original 16mm film, simply isn't going to
appear on the footage which will be sold. Ray has now admitted that he was
rather optimistic about what would be recoverable, although it's by no means
as simple as that.
Some of the film has also been sold, apparently to a Japanese party. The
footage which has been sold is the "autopsy" footage which features a more
decomposed body. This footage has not been seen by many people, but is
apparently of superior quality to the "autopsy" footage shown at the Museum
of London on May 5th and which is better known.
Ray apparently sold this some time ago, but now regrets doing so.
It is unclear whether any of this footage will still appear on the "raw
footage" video, currently being sold from the WWW site.
The Japanese buyer is supposedly a "private collector" and has exclusive
rights to the footage.
It seems that what remains is the "tent" footage, which appears to show an
injured humanoid receiving medical attention, the "autopsy" footage shown at
the Museum of London and elsewhere and some "debris" footage, which shows
various types of debris on a table.
It would therefore appear that there is no footage of President Truman, no
vehicle recovery, no footage of the debris being recovered and at no point
can anyone be identified.
Added to the known anomalies and other matters, it is of course all
consistent with a hoax; the footage which would be hard evidence of a
connection with the Roswell incident and which would be extremely difficult
to fake, is very conspicuous by its absence.
One other important point which Ray has just disclosed is that the alleged
16mm reels contain written notes relating to the dates of filming and
processing and other "nonsense". Bearing in mind that Ray is very much "a
fish out of water" in this whole affair, what he perceives as "nonsense"
could of course be particulary significant and I have asked him to detail
this.
Indications of a hoax are countered by the fact that the key figure in
this story, the cameraman, does appear to exist and John Purdie of Union
Pictures, the company who are producing the major Channel 4 documentary
to be shown later this month, has apparently now met him.
This is not confirmed, but indications are that the cameraman is willing to
go public if he is guaranteed immunity from any prosecution.
The other factor which would tend to support the view that the film may be
authentic, is that it simply isn't consistent with what we would expect if
it was an attempt to recreate the Roswell story. Neither the creatures shown
in the film, nor the date of the alleged crash are consistent with the
documented evidence.
And if it is a hoax, it's a damn good one.
Much has become clear during recent weeks and the dating of the film by
Kodak should be a further significant, factor. If the film doesn't check
out, then it will obviously be a conclusive factor.
16mm film stock has a short life span, and if the film stock does prove to
be of 1947 origin, it would apparently be extremely unlikely that the images
were not also from that era.
Is it the Holy Grail?
We should all know the answer to that shortly.
James.
--
Page Index
This information comes from a page on
Stanton Friedman's Web Site. In
many posts we have shared on our site, we have mentioned Mr. Friedman and we
thought it might be a good idea to quote him directly. I have met Mr.
Friedman on a few occassions at various New Age conferences and respect his
insights and willingness to share UFO related information as a scientist and
from a scientific perspective. I applaud his efforts to help us unrevel this
very complicated situation around the UFOs and hope that his efforts will
inspire other scientist to take their heads out of the clouds and really dig
deep to see all the evidence that exists around the UFO phenomena.
ILLINOIS
A Monthly Report: August 4
ALIEN AUTOPSY FILM: FACT OR FICTION?
Background: Ray Santili, a British promoter has come into possession of what he claims is an
authentic copy of a film showing the autopsies of several alien corpses recovered from a crashed
flying saucer near Roswell, New Mexico in 1947.
A WWW page contains more info and some pictures.
As the nuclear physicist who began the serious investigation of the New Mexico recovery of crashed flying
saucers in 1978, I have tried to follow the action on the supposed alien autopsy film footage since first
hearing of it on January 14th of this year. Twice I have met with Ray Santilli in London. Finally on July 31
and August 1, I was able to review it in Washington, DC.
I am trying to separate Mr. Santilli's many and often changed claims about President Truman being in the footage,
the background of the cameraman, etc, from the question of film legitimacy. The symbols (old Greek) and debris on a
table very much look to be of Earthling origin and are very different from the ones drawn by Dr. Jesse Marcel based
on the alien I-beams he handled in 1947. The female body bears no resemblance to any aliens I have heard described
or sketched in my 37 years of serious UFO investigation. I have collected a good deal of information which strongly
suggests that she is a victim of Turner's Syndrome, a fairly common female birth defect. In addition, the supposed
on site "military" witness, Frank J. Kaufmann, provided nothing to back up his many claims during my recent
2 hour visit with him. He claimed to Ch. 4, that the stills are of the bodies he supposedly saw, but the drawings
in The Truth about the UFO Crash at Roswell bear little resemblance to the body. They also show 4 fingers and a thumb,
not 5 and a thumb, as in the footage, and not the 4 fingers (no thumb) that other witnesses have noted.
Having worked under security in the nuclear business in the US for 14 years, I have great trouble with the notion of
so much highly classified material being smuggled out.
However, I am certain after all my research, that two saucers crashed in New Mexico in July, 1947, as described in Crash
at Corona and that alien bodies were recovered and would have been autopsied. Loads of film would have been shot,
presumably by some of the many cameramen who had high security clearances for such projects as the explosion of two
A Bombs during Operation Crossroads in 1946 in the Pacific. It was Major Jesse Marcel and others of the 509th who
recovered the Roswell wreckage. The film is still in my "gray" basket, though I am leaning towards fraud...though not
made, only exploited, by Santilli. His order blank for the $50.00 video has 4 disclaimers!
A former USAF OSI man told me he saw the footage in 1981 and it was then shown to be fraudulent. There is insufficient
evidence as yet to support this notion.
Tune in next month.
Stanton T. Friedman, August 4, 1995
To visit Mr. Friedman's Home Page:
http://medianet.nbnet.nb.ca/medianet/atlantic/ufo/sfhome2.HTM
Page Index
Hans V. Kampen is a Dutch UFO researcher who has been following the Roswell
Film very closely. I met Hans on Compuserve and we have been sharing notes.
Please go to our Roswell Hoax Page and review
Mr. Kampen's theory that the Film aliens are drowned humans. So here is what
Hans discovered in his visit with Ray Santilli and a chance to see the actual
film .............
FROM: Hans v. Kampen, 100544,1761
TO: Joshua Shapiro, 74217,1412
DATE: 8/19/95 2:38 PM
Re: I have seen Ray and the Roswell movies
On Friday 18 August 1995 I was flown from Munich to London to meet a team selected and
sponsored by the leading Dutch newspaper >De Telegraaf< comprising a filmmaker/special
effect experts, a leading forensic pathologist from the >Vrije Universiteit< Amsterdam, and 2
journalists involved in covering the current >Roswell< hipe. They had arranged a 100 minutes
meeting with Ray Santilli at his small basement office in London. We were shown now
wellknown autopsy of the 'wounded' 'alien' - the debris film wasn't available for projection.
Much has been written about this autopsy and I refer to the description of Bruce Maccabee,
which is exactly what we have seen.
Next to this we had a profound discussion with Ray Santilli, a young, energetic and cooperative
music-videomaker/retailer. We were presented many documents confirming the authenticity
of the reels and provocative (sometimes new) details about why the cameraman JB shot the
films, as well as how he got them. There is for us no shadow of doubt as to the fact that these
films are no hoax! They are real and well documented (!). There is a logical reason why JB kept
these reels: they caused cameraproblems and were removed but not returned to the Army,
who send this cameraman to a site 'just southwest of Socorro, June 2nd, 1947' (literal quote
from JB). He kept these few 'faulty' but still intriguing films in his personal archive, the rest
was returned to the Army Airforce for which JB worked from 1942 until 1948 and then for the
USAF until 1952. Santilli got the films (everyone now knows how) and had them electronically
reprocessed (that is where Maccabee states: "1) The black and white film is quite clean, i.e.,
no obvious scratches such as one gets from running the film through a projector many times.
I conclude that the film has been run very few times.")
Maccabee can't have seen the original films, because they aren't in the UK, but somewhere in
Switzerland in a safe! Santilli and his team tried to 're-sequence' the 3 minutes reels on video
and enhance their poor quality (no scratches, better contrast etc.). Santilli explained us, that
he can't guarantee all sequences are correct however! Which we believe, seeing jumps in the
segment that was hown to us. From 90 minutes 'roughs' he could restore but 21 minutes of
good quality. From these 21 minutes several broadcaster may show about 10 minutes in their
documentaries on August 26th.
What did we see? One single autopsy, slowly performed by a surgeon helped by a female
assistant in usual protective clothing (according to our pathologist). On what sort of creature
did he perform the autopsy - well exactly this:
The so-called Roswell "alien" most closely resembles a human suffering
from a form of Patau's syndrome (chromosome 13 trisomy). In common
with the "alien", a Patau victim typically has low-set, abnormally
shaped ears, underdeveloped nose, absence of eyebrows, triangular
forhead, partially fused brain hemispheres, polydactyl hands and feet,
narrow finger tips, prominent heels and arched feet, abnormal
genitalia and many visceral organ defects. There are also some
similarities to Edward's syndrome victims (trisomy 18) who, in
addition to having low-set, abnormal ears and many visceral defects,
also have protruding posterior (occipital) heads with small jaws and
mouths and narrow hips, similar to the "alien".
The main difference between a typical Patau or Edwards case and the
"alien" are the abnormally large eyes, iris/pupil, palpebral fissure
(eye-opening), and semi-prominent brow of the so-called alien.
This was precisely what our pathologist came up with, after seeing the film.
Patau's syndrome in full glory. BUT with some extra remarks:
The eyes are covered with a gummi- or couchouc like folie which is decisively removed by the
surgeon (no pathologist (!) as for his technique) with a pincher, showing normal human eyes
with the pupil turned fully upwards as is usual in dead people. We saw absolutely traces of
small whimpers, eyehairs! Our pathologist explained that covering the eyes is not unusual as a
protection to prevent the eyes from drying out when the corpse had to be stored for a longer
period of time in a freezer. The fluid shown at the cuts of the lancet seems not to have been
blood, but formaline, also to protect the corpse (balsaming it). The same is seen after cutting
the aorta and consecutive removal of parts of the bowels, that became quite messy by it. For
our pathologist a 'daily phenomenon'. He decided to have seen a slow, but fairly usual autopsy
on a 'Patau' patient - a real human being, although slightly deformed.
The patient we saw was a woman, with tiny nipples and for sure traces of a belly button. The
top light above the table makes identification of the belly button difficult, also due to
overexposure and high contrast of the film... He believes the patient to have been almost 14 or
15 years of age, by comparing the skullsize with the bodies. The skull makes out some 15% of
the bodysize, indicating a still immature person. Size corrected for slight hydrocephalus.
The kneejoint in the wounded leg appear to work normally, although the legtissue is heavily
damaged. It is possible that the patient is shot at several times, causing these and possible
other wounds. The 'strange' marks and bloodstains on the corpse were identified by him as
'Leichenflecken', 'marks of death' appearing on corpses that have been preserved for some
time. Their existence rules out the possibility, that 'blood' comes from cuts - it confirms the
idea of balseming.
Our filmexpert acknowledged the originality of the reel labels that were shown to us, on one of
which was a name: Trumann xxxx, where the xxxx of the name was torn off unfortunately.
He decided to have seen an enhanced video of authentic old Kodak BW film material about an
autopsy on a somewhat deformed human. The film just have been shot with a fixed focus 16
mm camera at about 18-24 f/s, slightly overexposed.
Our pathologist noticed the removal of a bright bloodclot from the aorta or heart, which was
presented by Santilli as 'a crystal'. The pathologist explained this common phenomenon and
had to laugh out loud about the crystal, but could imagine the misinterpretation by laymen.
He also amended the claim, that in a shot a strange organ was seen lying above the bowels. He
explained that Patua patients (a rare disorder) can have a 'sunken' liver, that peaks out of the
rib-cage more than seen with common corpses on opening. The liver seems to have been
exposed more than usual for filmreasons - the liver is enlarged.
The brain that is removed, is a typical Patua brain although it is taken out with complete dura. A
slight hydrocephalus seems present, causing the eyeballs to protrude a bit. This is no unusual
combination of syndroms.
I concluded, that we apparently have some shots of the recovery of debris (!!) - not shown to us
- a field with debris near Socorro (not Roswell), with small flags marking the pieces. And we
have shots about possibly 4 autopsies, of which the last took place in July 1949!!!
One of these autopsies was shown to us.
From documents and answers on question to Santilli I concluded, that a general McMullan had
ordered cameraman JB to go from Edwards to a site near the southwest of Socorro on June
2nd 1947 to film 'the crash of an experimental Russian spy-plane' (lit. from a document).
A few weeks later JB got orders to film some autopsies for the Army and got a last order to do
so in July 1949 (forty nine) in behalf of the USAF. The first autopsies may have taken place
either near or in Socorro, the last one almost certainly in Dallas. This I base on verbal
accounts.
A document is to be released soon, claiming JB to have seen '4 circus freaks' near the
crashsite in the Socorro area, where 1 'freak' was already dead. JB writes in this document
about the maltreatment by US Army personel of one such 'freak', hitting it with his rifle.
I find this document utterly doubtful - although not impossible - it is a JB's recollection.
JB recognized the 'freaks' while filming the autopsies with his Bell & Howell 16 mm fixed focus
camera...!
My temporary conclusion at this moment is, that the films have nothing to do with the genuine
'Friedmanian'_Roswell case, which developed originally after 4 July 1947. It is NOT Roswell.
There is no filmed evidence, that the crashed vehicle near Socorro (identified as an
'experimental Russian spyplane' by general Mc Mullan) carried the 'freaks' shown on the later
registered autopsies. Neither exists firm evidence, that the craft was a circular vehicle (a
flying saucer), nor that it was recovered in toto and transported to a base near Dallas, as is
claimed by JB (thru Santilli).
What the US Army had to do with the autopsy on Patau patients is a riddle, if this part of the
story is true. However it might be, that these patients were used in secret military
experiments. We have to find out more about this aspect of the case.
The Roswell label is a smart marketing tool, however - to our opinion.
All of the Dutch team concluded, that the film doesn't show 'aliens' or extra-terrestrials.
No indication to hold that opinion could be presented or was discovered.
We believe that a short-lived myth has been born, that will go as it has come, quickly, but with
one complication: many people will start to believe things they will see, without asking further
questions. The case about 'Rossie' will damage the reputation of ufology for a long time to
come. We had neither a methodology to quickly identify the nature of the material, nor its
source(s), and the status to prevent a major media-hype of sorts, that may/will damage the
trustworthyness of future, serious ufo-research in the eyes of the public. It now depends
largerly on the media what the public will believe (not know) for the time to come.
Hans van Kampen
Message received August 21st:
If you want to contact 'De Telegraaf' for further information, call Patrick van Weerenburg,
Redaktion Telegraaf Amsterdam, 0031 20 585 2407. He will write the findings in the Saturday
issue, July 26th.
I am a 49 years young Dutch psychologist and sciencewriter, studied the Ufo phenomenon
in The Benelux from a critical (open-minded skeptical) perspective since 1967, have written 5
books about my findings in Holland, many UK and US books quote me, have made regular radio
en TV appearances in Holland on Ufo's and the paranormal, and I am married to a lovely
Bavarian woman. I live in Herrsching am Ammersee.
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From: density4@aol.com (Density 4)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Ecker on Santilli film
Date: 19 Aug 1995 20:51:50 -0400
(9595) Wed 9 Aug 95 11:59a
By: Don Ecker
To: All
Re: Autopsy Research
------------------------------
I first heard about the alleged "Roswell Autopsy" film while
speaking at the 1st International UFO conference in Vienna, Austria
in November 1993. British UFO researcher Philip Mantle brought it
to my attention during a chat there. I gave no credence to it, as
there was nothing to support it except the story Mantle relayed to
me.
In 1994, a number of newspapers and magazines reported a rather
bizarre story claiming that inside information found out that
American film maker Steven Speilberg had original footage from
Roswell and was going to use it in a UFO movie he was working on.
Checking with Speilbergs offices, they totally denied the claims.
There it rested until the first of this year, 1995. (I later found
out the Speilberg story had been planted by a PR firm hired by
Santilli to up the interest factor!)
Around the first of the year, I received a call from Paul Davids,
the producer of the "Roswell" movie, and Davids told me that he had
just heard that FOX Television had acquired the rights to actual
footage from the Roswell crash. Having worked on a number of
television programs for the old "Sightings" program, and the more
recent "Encounters" I called Bob Kiviat to check if there was any
truth to the rumors. Kiviat had heard about the film, but had no
information on FOX getting rights to it. He said he would check and
call me back.
I spoke with Kiviat later and he told me there was no truth to the
rumor, but he was going to follow up on it. For any of you that do
not know Kiviat, he is a former producer for "Unsolved Mysteries"
and worked with the Geraldo Rivera program "Now It Can Be Told." He
came on board with "Encounters" after the program began to run, and
I worked with Kiviat on several shows, including the military laser
pack, cattle mutilations, and the Mars show. I have found Kiviat to
be very journalistic in his approach to the UFO subject.
I informed Kiviat that I was very skeptical about this alleged
autopsy film, and it was my thoughts that a tremendous amount of
work and research would have to be preformed before anyone could
state or determine that it was genuine. Kiviat agreed and said he
was going to research to find out if FOX was interested in a
special not connected with any other "paranormal" programming, ie
not with Sightings or Encounters. Kiviat had expressed displeasure
with the direction Encounters had taken prior to its cancellation.
Time progressed and Kiviat informed me that he was going to travel
to the United Kingdom for a special screening of this film, which
took place in May, 1995. Upon his return he informed me that he was
impressed with the film, and FOX was interested in negotiating for
the rights to the film. At that point I told Kiviat that if the
stories about the alleged cameraman were true, he was in his 80's
and in poor health, it was vital that he go on the record, or at
least go on the record behind the scenes to validate this from his
standpoint. His military service, where he was stationed, his
commanding officers, etc. Kiviat agreed, and also told me that Ray
Santilli of Merlin Group, the people that had the film were being
difficult to deal with. They would not release the name of the
cameraman, were not truthful with certain details, and Santilli
made promises that he could not or would not keep.
Kiviat then told me that when the deal was set with FOX he wanted
me to come on board and research the cameraman. I thought I could
find him if he were real and I told Kiviat I needed time to do the
background research on him. It then became a series of weeks
passing by with promises of "next week" to the tune of about six
weeks with no word. A number of telephone calls to Kiviat were not
returned.
I spoke to Kevin Randle, author of two Roswell books several weeks
later, and Randle told me he was scheduled to travel to Roswell
with the FOX production. I began to research the background on the
film and people for UFO Magazine. I also spoke to several
executives with the Kodak Film company to inquire about the type of
film that the alleged cameraman used during the autopsy sequence.
According to the people in the UK including Santilli, the autopsy
and other sequences were shot with 16MM film. I spoke to the Los
Angeles Kodak representative, Lawrence Cate, and he informed me
that in the Kodak letter now sent all over the world, he had
neglected to state that he also saw on the side of the print, KODAK
SAFETY FILM. What caused me to sit up was that he also said that he
did not think that this type of film came into use until after 1950
because this type of film was not available in 1947. If this was
true, it might mean that the film with the bodies on it could not
have been printed in 47. I called the Rochester, NY offices of
KODAK and spoke to several people there. We found out that this
film was not manufactured until 1951. I called England and asked to
speak to Santilli.
My thinking went like this.... if the type of film that the autopsy
sequence was on was not made until 1951 (through 1987) and the
codes from 1947 were on it (from the negative) then the cameraman
either had to have the negative, where tests could be preformed, or
Santilli had the negative, or if no one had it, then we have a gap
of at least 4 years. Santilli told me he did not have a negative,
(later proven to be a lie) and the cameraman did not have one. I
then asked him who did? He said "the government I guess." I then
told him if this was true, then the film must be a hoax unless the
cameraman had an earlier positive print. Santilli denied it. We
went back to research, and were put in touch with a KODAK executive
that was visiting Los Angeles. We found out that the film they
referred to from 1951 however, was m. 16MM was available in safety
film in 1947. So it seemed we were back at square one. The KODAK
exec, Tony Aimed, however informed us that a Robert Shell, located
in Virginia was going to preform a chemical analysis on a piece of
negative, by the way for the FOX special. At 11:00 PM that night I
received a call from Kiviat.
Early in the game Bob Kiviat had told me that the moment he
received the autopsy film here in Los Angeles, he would call me so
I could view it and give him my feelings on it. Now I knew from
Kevin Randle that FOX had had the film for at least a couple of
weeks, and I had had no word. Telling Kiviat I was angry about
that, he told me that the next night, Saturday August 5th, he would
call me as soon as I completed my weekly radio program UFOs Tonite!
and set up a screening Sunday morning. I spoke to him around 11:30
PM on Saturday and made arrangements to meet him at 11:00 AM with
my wife.
Sunday....the big day. Arriving at Kiviats offices at 11:00 AM I
could hardly wait to see the thing that had made so much havoc in
the UFO field. With no further ado, Kiviat popped the video in the
VCR and turned it on. Not quite sure what to expect, I remembered
all the hoop-la about telephone cords, excessive bleeding and so
on. Having 10 years in the law enforcement field, I attended my
share of autopsies. The film opens up with views of the body, just
like the computer gifs all over the computer world. Then two people
enter the field of view, covered from top to bottom with what must
be radiation suits, circa 1940's. My wife noticed ( and she was the
first ) that one of the two people in the room appeared to have
breasts. A nurse? At any rate the autopsy began with cuts around
the neck and ears. A bit of seepage of blood? The film is black and
white. No gross amount however. When they went into the chest
cavity, the closeup shots were out of focus. Kiviat informed me
that Dr. Bob Nathan at JPL could perhaps clear some of this up.
Peering closely at the fingers and toes did show six digits. I did
not see anything that would suggest they were added onto the body.
Later I viewed what might have been an tent with wreckage in it. I
beams with odd figures or glpyhs on them, and two "panels" with
inset areas for a right and left six digit hand with what looked
like studs or something inlet where the finger and palm would rest.
Another sequence included was a tent scene with two or three people
in it with yet another body. It was a terrible copy, nothing could
be discerned, it was so poor. Kiviat was upset at this because he
knew Santilli had a better copy, but did not send it. Yet FOX paid
a large sum for the copy. How do I know? Kiviat informed me that
now was the time for me to start to work, right then and there.
"Just pick out a desk Don. We have two weeks for you to do the
background research. However I am sorry to say I can only cover
your expenses, no consulting fees, we spent all our budget on the
film." And I might add, on there host. You see Bob wanted to get
Connie Chung or another well known journalist to host the show, but
FOX did not want to appear to endorse the film. So he went to his
B list of celebrities, first wanting Captain Picard, Patrick
Stewart, but settling on Commander Riker, Jonathan Frakes to host
this program. Is this all? Nope, read on.
Santilli has never been shy about stating that he is not in this
for the research, UFOs or anything else. He wants to make money.
However his greed has screwed him out of who knows how much more.I
am aware of another bit of this film that allegedly shows an
autopsy in a tent. This has not been available however because
depending on when one speaks to Santilli, either a German or a
Japanese businessman bought the segment in question. This however
is another lie. Santilli had hoped to turn this into a separate
video for sell, so in order to make it appear more authentic, he
destroyed it by trying to imprint "1947" on it which destroyed it
for research or possible historical value.
Having spoken to a number of people who know Santilli, almost to a
person they all said that no one could have been a worse choice to
receive this film if it is real. If it is real, Ray Santilli
doesn't have a clue on what should have been done. If the film is
a hoax or disinformation, he still does not have a clue. By taking
the mercenary road he has effectively destroyed it in a great many
minds by only worrying about the financial aspects. If it is real,
and the only way to prove it is by interviewing the cameraman and
checking on his story, and by a chemical analysis of the original
negative, Ray Santilli has done a disservice to the entire human
race. If it is a hoax, then by Santilli's game playing, he may have
obstructed the road to find out who perpetrated the hoax. We may
never know. And that brings us to FOX.
As in almost all television geared toward UFO stories, the bottom
line IS THE BOTTOM LINE. In ratings sweeps, and when a TV network
wants to up its ratings, they gravitate to the UFO subject. Much
like that long ago October 1988 program, "UFO Coverup Live!" much
anticipation waits on FOX's Autopsy Special. I am fearful that many
people will be disappointed. Is it real? What did I feel while
viewing it? 1st, I don't know, and 2nd, nothing..... The key still
lies with the 80 plus year old cameraman, IF HE EXISTS, and with an
impartial analysis of the actual negative. And as long as TV just
worries about ratings, and people like Santilli worries about
profits, we the people end up getting the short, brown and sticky
end of the stick.
Don Ecker
UFO Magazine
PS I think the cameraman can still be found and interviewed, time
will tell. However like all things a screwy as the above story, we
researchers that care about the real truth must remain VERY
SKEPTICAL.---
* Origin: Ask UFO Magazine with Don Ecker (1:102/828.0)
------------------------------
(12358) Tue 15 Aug 95 11:30a
By: Don Ecker
To: All
Re: Nipples
------------------------------
Subj: Nipples
Section: UFO Magazine
To: All
Date: Tuesday, August 15, 1995 7:08:46 AM
From: Don Ecker/UFO Mag., 73227,2635 #116370
As I have stated to the forum when I uploaded my text file on the Autopsy
film controversy, I saw the autopsy film on August 6th. I have now had a bit
of time to digest what I observed and thought I would relay the
information here.
As I mentioned before, I have attended a number of autopsies while in law
enforcement. So I was prepared to look for "normal" procedures. While
observing the goings on, I noticed
that above the table a microphone hung down, so we must assume that there
are
audio recordings "somewhere". It appeared that the doctor or whoever was
doing the procedure was making comments during the event.
One big question that most everyone seems to be asking is "Where are the
nipples or belly button?" If you have viewed the computer gifs, there
does not appear to be any. Well, I did observe what appeared to be
nipples,
but they were very faint. This was during the film sequence.
I had the chance to stop the tape and rerun it several times. My wife and
Bob Kiviat both concurred. However no belly button.
There has also been much debate over items viewed in the room. Television
producer Russ Estes has pointed out that there appears to be a lit
bunson burner in the frame. If so, this would appear to be very
dangerous as there could be explosive gases present if this is an
operating room. Of course no one yet seems to know if this were a morgue
or
operating room. Also in the tray of instruments, there is a reflex hammer,
the type that we are all familar with. The one that your doctor uses
to tap you on your knee's with. What would that be doing in an autopsy
room?
Estes feels that if this were a "movie set" however
someone might place such an item there to give it a more medical feel.
However
what I noticed was missing was most telling to me. Where was the scale?
During the entire film sequence with the autopsy, there was no scale
visable.
This is the item that hangs above the autopsy table to weigh the organs.
It is present in every autopsy. It is used to measure organs against
what is normal. If this were such an extraordinary event, and we
(US Military) captured a flying saucer and occupants, it would
only make the utmost sense to capture each and every detail. This of
course
would mean each iota of data on this "alien". However no scale was
present.
This made no sense to me. I suppose the argument about no normal being
known
for an alien -- could be used. However, we would have to invent a normal
in such a case.
At anyrate these are a series of observations for your information. In
another
week or so the special will air and you can make your own conclusions.
Best;
Don Ecker
UFO Magazine
UFOs Tonite!
---
* Origin: ParaNet BETA(sm) Home to UFO Magazine & UFOs Tonite!
(1:102/828.0)
--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
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