Debian bug report logs - #1678
w3-el: no install-info; elisp files; mailcrypt

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From chiark.chu.cam.ac.uk!ian Mon Oct 16 18:24:15 1995
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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 95 02:24 BST
From: Ian Jackson <ian@chiark.chu.cam.ac.uk>
To: debian-bugs@Pixar.com
Subject: Re: Bug#1678: w3-el: no install-info; elisp files; mailcrypt

CD Rasmussen writes ("Bug#1678: w3-el: no install-info; elisp files; mailcrypt"):
> Dirk, thanks for including your explanation of the current packaging
> of elisp files.  While it clarified the current condition it also
> helped me to pinpoint my issue with the treatment of elisp sources.
> 
> I'm not having a fit over this.  If debian distributions are to go
> against the convention of keeping elisp files as a primary
> distribution form for the sake of disk space, I can accept that.  If
> we are doing to follow the convention of a different language, I find
> it unreasonable.
> 
> If for what ever reason we do separate the elisp source files, I would
> like to see it stated as a convention to be followed by all elisp
> related packages and I would want to ensure that when sources are
> installed that they fall into the same directory as the compiled
> files.
> 
> I think the example set by the emacs and emacs-el packages is the
> correct model to follow.

Much as I don't like posting `me too' articles, I agree.  The *.el
files are necessary in some situations, and having them available
should be easy, but not necessary.  I think putting them in a
separate package achieves this.

Ian.

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From sme.siemens.com!cdr Mon Oct 16 14:03:23 1995
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To: Dirk.Eddelbuettel@qed.econ.queensu.ca
Cc: debian-bugs@pixar.com
Reply-To: cdr@sme.siemens.com
Subject: Re: Bug#1678: w3-el: no install-info; elisp files; mailcrypt 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 16 Oct 1995 15:26:00 EDT."
             <m0t4vBF-00016CC@miles.econ.queensu.ca> 
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 17:03:10 -0400
From: CD Rasmussen <cdr@sme.siemens.com>

Dirk, thanks for including your explanation of the current packaging
of elisp files.  While it clarified the current condition it also
helped me to pinpoint my issue with the treatment of elisp sources.

I'm not having a fit over this.  If debian distributions are to go
against the convention of keeping elisp files as a primary
distribution form for the sake of disk space, I can accept that.  If
we are doing to follow the convention of a different language, I find
it unreasonable.

If for what ever reason we do separate the elisp source files, I would
like to see it stated as a convention to be followed by all elisp
related packages and I would want to ensure that when sources are
installed that they fall into the same directory as the compiled
files.

I think the example set by the emacs and emacs-el packages is the
correct model to follow.

Costa

Message received at debian-bugs:

From magenta.com!moth Mon Oct 16 13:34:13 1995
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 16:29:11 -0400
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From: Raul Miller <moth@magenta.com>
Reply-To: Raul Miller <moth@magenta.com>
To: Dirk.Eddelbuettel@qed.econ.queensu.ca
Cc: cdr@sme.siemens.com, debian-bugs@Pixar.com
In-Reply-To: <m0t4vBF-00016CC@miles.econ.queensu.ca> (Dirk.Eddelbuettel@qed.econ.queensu.ca)
Subject: Re: Bug#1678: w3-el: no install-info; elisp files; mailcrypt

Dirk Eddelbuettel:
   I don't want to take them away from anyone, not even from Emacs
   specialists.  I simply want to have the option of installing them
   or not. 

Well, you could delete them.

$ (cd /usr/lib/emacs/site-lisp/w3; for x in *.elc; do rm `basename $x c`; done)

   If I want to read or modify them, I can always grab the source
   package --- as with any C code.  But .el is source code, and we
   usually hide that from users that want to run binaries from in a
   .deb package. All I propose is to do the same with elisp code. And
   that idea seems well represented among debian packages. Here's a
   quick poll that shows that vm, the example I cited, is not
   atypical:

	   editors/emacs			only .elc files

Not precisely -- these are available as a separate package.

	   mail/itimer			        only .elc files
	   mail/vm				only .elc files
	   tex/auctex			        mostly .elc plus three .el files,

In my opinion, this is a bug.  The .el files should be available in
package form.  They are, after all, executable code.  [Which is why
I'm still not sure I should compress them for w3 -- once compressed
they're no longer executable code.]

   whereas
	   net/w3				el and elc files

I suppose I could release a w3-elc which has only the .elc files.
Alternatively, I could make it an install-time configuration option to
run that line of code that deletes the .el files for which
corresponding .elc files exist...  Actually, I kind of like this idea
-- I could also support compression for those people who want them
handy but need to save space.

I suspect this will become a much bigger issue once we start having
alternative implementations of emacs available.  At that point I
suspect I'll have to include something like w3's makefile as well
[because of byte-code incompatabilities].

-- 
Raul

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From qed.econ.queensu.ca!edd Mon Oct 16 12:26:27 1995
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 95 15:26 EDT
To: cdr@sme.siemens.com, debian-bugs@Pixar.com
Subject: Re: Bug#1678: w3-el: no install-info; elisp files; mailcrypt
In-Reply-To: <9510161835.AA00631@cons.mountain>
References: <m0t4Gch-00013eC@miles.econ.queensu.ca>
	<9510161835.AA00631@cons.mountain>
From: Dirk.Eddelbuettel@qed.econ.queensu.ca


  CD Rasmussen writes:
  Costa> Elisp folk don't tend to separate the source from the executable the
  Costa> way people do with C programs.  I'm sorry to hear this was done with
  Costa> VM.

I don't want to take them away from anyone, not even from Emacs specialists.
I simply want to have the option of installing them or not. If I want to read
or modify them, I can always grab the source package --- as with any C code.
But .el is source code, and we usually hide that from users that want to run
binaries from in a .deb package. All I propose is to do the same with elisp
code. And that idea seems well represented among debian packages. Here's a
quick poll that shows that vm, the example I cited, is not atypical:

	editors/emacs			only .elc files
	mail/itimer			only .elc files
	mail/vm				only .elc files
	tex/auctex			mostly .elc plus three .el files, 

whereas

	net/w3				el and elc files


--
Dirk.Eddelbuettel@qed.econ.queensu.ca          http://qed.econ.queensu.ca/~edd 

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From sme.siemens.com!cdr Mon Oct 16 11:35:38 1995
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To: Dirk.Eddelbuettel@qed.econ.queensu.ca, debian-bugs@pixar.com
Reply-To: cdr@sme.siemens.com
Subject: Re: Bug#1678: w3-el: no install-info; elisp files; mailcrypt 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 14 Oct 1995 20:08:00 EDT."
             <m0t4Gch-00013eC@miles.econ.queensu.ca> 
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 14:35:15 -0400
From: CD Rasmussen <cdr@sme.siemens.com>

Separating the .el and .elc files does not sit well with me.  If I had
to have one or he other, I'd rather have the .el files and decide what
to do with them myself.  Granted the w3 lisp files are large.

Elisp folk don't tend to separate the source from the executable the
way people do with C programs.  I'm sorry to hear this was done with VM.

Costa

   Subject: Bug#1678: w3-el: no install-info; elisp files; mailcrypt
   Date: Sat, 14 Oct 95 20:08 EDT
   To: Debian Bugs <debian-bugs@Pixar.com>
   From: Dirk.Eddelbuettel@qed.econ.queensu.ca
   
   Package: w3-el
   Version: 2.2.22
   
   Just installed w3-el and noted that
   
    * postinst doesn't call install-info (but the info files are put in /usr/info)
   
    * all the elisp files come shipped with w3-el --- is this necessary? I
      gzipped them all, but had to gunzip w3-sysdp.el. The vm package for
      example ships only only the compiled elisp code.
   
    * w3-el comes with an (old) version of mailcrypt that I had to move away as
      it collided with mailcrypt.el (3.2) in /usr/local/lib/emacs/site-lisp.
   
   --
   Dirk.Eddelbuettel@qed.econ.queensu.ca          http://qed.econ.queensu.ca/~edd
   

>

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From magenta.com!moth Sat Oct 14 22:40:51 1995
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From: Raul Miller <moth@magenta.com>
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To: Dirk.Eddelbuettel@qed.econ.queensu.ca, debian-bugs@Pixar.com
In-Reply-To: <m0t4Gch-00013eC@miles.econ.queensu.ca> (Dirk.Eddelbuettel@qed.econ.queensu.ca)
Subject: Re: Bug#1678: w3-el: no install-info; elisp files; mailcrypt

Dirk Eddelbuettel:
    * w3-el comes with an (old) version of mailcrypt that I had to move away as
      it collided with mailcrypt.el (3.2) in /usr/local/lib/emacs/site-lisp.

On second thought, I'm leaving this in.  Not everyone is going to have
a /usr/local/lib/emacs/site-lisp/mailcrypt.el

If you can tell me where to find the current version, I'll see about
including it with the next release of w3-el.  However, the right thing
for me to do is append w3's directory to the tail end of the
load-path.

-- 
Raul

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From magenta.com!moth Sat Oct 14 22:36:32 1995
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In-Reply-To: <m0t4Gch-00013eC@miles.econ.queensu.ca> (Dirk.Eddelbuettel@qed.econ.queensu.ca)
Subject: Re: Bug#1678: w3-el: no install-info; elisp files; mailcrypt

Dirk Eddelbuettel:

   Just installed w3-el and noted that

    * postinst doesn't call install-info (but the info files are put
      in /usr/info)

Oops, I'll fix this for the next release.

    * all the elisp files come shipped with w3-el --- is this
      necessary? I gzipped them all, but had to gunzip
      w3-sysdp.el. The vm package for example ships only only the
      compiled elisp code.

I've been waffling about this.  I think I ought to provide the .el
files but gzipped.  There's some significant documentation in those
files.

    * w3-el comes with an (old) version of mailcrypt that I had to
      move away as it collided with mailcrypt.el (3.2) in
      /usr/local/lib/emacs/site-lisp.

I'll remove this for the next release.

-- 
Raul

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From qed.econ.queensu.ca!edd Sat Oct 14 17:07:51 1995
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Date: Sat, 14 Oct 95 20:08 EDT
To: Debian Bugs <debian-bugs@pixar.com>
Subject: w3-el: no install-info; elisp files; mailcrypt
From: Dirk.Eddelbuettel@qed.econ.queensu.ca


Package: w3-el
Version: 2.2.22                                 

Just installed w3-el and noted that

 * postinst doesn't call install-info (but the info files are put in /usr/info)

 * all the elisp files come shipped with w3-el --- is this necessary? I
   gzipped them all, but had to gunzip w3-sysdp.el. The vm package for 
   example ships only only the compiled elisp code.

 * w3-el comes with an (old) version of mailcrypt that I had to move away as
   it collided with mailcrypt.el (3.2) in /usr/local/lib/emacs/site-lisp. 

-- 
Dirk.Eddelbuettel@qed.econ.queensu.ca          http://qed.econ.queensu.ca/~edd