****************************************************************** This conference transcript is the exclusive property of the Atari SIGs on DELPHI. Permission to reprint is granted only if this notice is included with the transcript and left unchanged. To get your own DELPHI account and join in on the many activities sponsored by the ST Advantage and the Atari Advantage on DELPHI, please call 1-800-544-4005 and ask for Member Services. ****************************************************************** Gordie> First, let me welcome everyone to the ST Advantage's first Online Panel Discussion. To my knowledge, this is a first both for Delphi and for the ST community as a whole. I hope it becomes a somewhat regular feature of our formal Conference program here. Next, I'd like to thank our panelists for taking the time to spend a couple hours here on Delphi, sharing their thoughts. We all appreciate it. Briefly, this CO will follow the same format as a live panel discussion, with the moderator (that'd be me) presenting the panel with questions and points for further discussion amongst themselves. If there's time at the end of the discussion, I'll open it to questions from the audience. Recent events in the computing world seem to show a new direction for Atari. A positive direction. The CeBIT show in Germany showed that Atari is doing some fairly serious research & development. The CEPS show in Chicago unveiled a new face from Atari, with the Professional Systems Group making a significant impact in the corporate DTP arena. But we've seen Atari make forward progress before, only to stall out when things should have been moving forward. So this is a good time to hear what some of the leading Atari developers are thinking, and see if we can peer through the fog a bit and look into the future a bit. The ST community is unique to the computing world. It seems that here, we have a situation where the computer is truly made by the software it runs. Without good software, a computer is a doorstop. But without enough computers to run the software, the developers, who write the software, can't make a living. And that is the crux of the problem. Which comes first, the software or the computer sales? Both are essential to one another. But with the Atari computers, there seems to be some confusion about which should 'drive' the other. I don't want to put too much of my own opinion into this, so I'll shut up and start the discussion. First, I'd like the developers to briefly talk about who they are. Dorothy, why don't you start, then John, then Nathan. DABRUMLEVE> Well, I'm D.A. Brumleve, and I specialize in software for young children. I have a series of programs, both PD and commercial, called "kidprgs" which are only available for the ST. John... .John at CodeHead> I'm John Eidsvoog from CodeHead Software. My partner, Charles F. Johnson, couldn't be with us tonight. We are the makers of about nine products for the ST. G+Plus, MultiDesk, HotWire, MaxiFile, CodeKeys, Midimax, LookIt & PopIt and the CodeHead Utilities. Nathan? .Nathan> My turn. My name is Nathan Potechin, and I'm President of ISD Marketing. My company represents the Calamus family of products and DynaCADD. Which means, I'm the guy that represents professional alternatives based on the Atari platform. Calamus is an Atari-only product while DynaCADD is alive on well on 2 others. I am also President of the IAAD (Independant Association of Atari Developers). Both John and Dorothy are also key members. Our little organization represents about 80% of the existing Atari developers in North America. Between us, we should be able to provide a little insight on most everything Atari related. :-) ga .Gordie> In my opening intro, I mentioned that there seemed to be some confusion about who 'drives' the bus. Dorothy and Nathan represent software that can, and does, make the Atari a viable computing platform in their respective niches. John represents software that supports those who have already made the choice, and have developed a need for getting the nitty-gritty work done. Dorothy, can the Atari become a player in the educational field? DABRUMLEVE> I really think it can, Gordie, and I think Atari is interested in seeing to it that it does. The Apple IIs that are in most schools will need replacement soon. Schools with funds are buying new machines, usually Macs and IBMs. I think the 1040STe can compete with these platforms, especially on the elementary level, and WIN. We just have to get in there NOW and market them. .Gordie> Have you seen anything from Atari that indicates they are aware of that market niche, and are planning to pursue it? DABRUMLEVE> Yes, I certainly have, and were it not for my non-disclosure agreement, I'd be happy to share it with you. ;-) .Gordie> Ah, yes, well... Nathan, have you seen anything from Atari that would support the optimism that seems to be running at a low level through much of the Atari community? .Nathan> I recently had the pleasure of exhibiting with the Professional Systems Group at CEPs. As some of you may know, I have had the opportunity to participate at every major exhibit that Atari has been at. This latest, at CEPs, was the most professional showing ever. The Atari name and Logo were downplayed. What they showed was pre-press publishing solutions. And the booth, and all it contained, was very well received. This is another market niche, and, as with education, it is a large one. Not only has Atari recognized their potential in this market, they did something concrete about it. This was a very positive show and serious leads were had by all. End result will be sales in this market. Sales in any niche all add up to market recognition for Atari. It doesn't matter if your interests are in playing games or CADD, every sale helps. Every area where we (Atari, itself, and our software) can shine, helps us all, the entire Atari community. .Gordie> John, you have some interest in music, , could you talk about what Atari means in that market? .John at CodeHead> Yes. When the ST was first introduced, it seemed they had a head start on the other computers because of the built-in MIDI ports. Hopefully, they haven't lost that edge, although the Mac II software has started to catch up and in many areas is superior to the ST software. We at CodeHead have not concentrated very much on MIDI software, mainly because the competition is very fierce, and the market is a subset of the general ST market which is already rather small. ga .Gordie> A late welcome to Tom Harker, from ICD, Inc. It sounds like there is a lot to be excited about, but as I said in my intro, we've been excited before, and have been let down. Do any (or all) of you think this time will be different? .John at CodeHead> We're waiting with a slightly skeptical optimism. :^) .Nathan ISD/IAAD> Gordie, we've all been around Atari for a very long time now. Bascially, we're still here, we're still supporting the product and letting their actions speak for themselves. None of us represent Atari Corp. All I can offer is that the CEPS exhibit by them was as good as the best at the show. And that's action. .Gordie> Tom, how about you? Or Dorothy? .Tom at ICD> Well, we are still making a good living selling and developing products for the Atari ST. Of course, there is a market in Europe that Leonard hasn't messed up yet. ;-) .Gordie> There are a lot of people who are thinking about upgrading their systems to either MegaSTe's or TT's. But they are hesitant because they aren't sure just where the Atari market is going. Would any of you recommend upgrading, or upgrading with qualifications? .Nathan ISD/IAAD> We wrote DynaCADD. We will continue to support DynaCADD on the Atari platform regardless of whether we end up with the program on 4 other platforms. I can only speak for myself, but that is definitely our intention. And with a product like DynaCADD, we always recommend that you upgrade. :-) ga .John @ CodeHead> I think it will be wonderful once the new machines pass FCC class B approval. Until then I believe people might be skeptical about the investment, not being sure whether developers will support it fully. We've taken the trouble to make all of our software compatible with the new machines, however. .Gordie> Dorothy, how about you? DABRUMLEVE> Well, I don't think too many people are going to buy a TT for their children, but of course I want my software to run and run well on any compatible machine. And I intend to see to it that it does. .Nathan ISD/IAAD> I might also add that Calamus remains an Atari only product. .Tom at ICD> We also have made our software compatible but I don't see a market for the TT in the USA. It is just too close to the Macintosh offerings in price. .Gordie> That brings up an important point. It is a global compute market. Is that where developers are going to have to go for their bread and butter income? .Nathan ISD/IAAD> I depend on the global Atari community to make a living. Atari's success in the North American market leaves a little to be desired, just a small amount. :-) ga DABRUMLEVE> I am translating my programs to other languages; Icelandic and German versions are already available. But I'd like to point out that we have been looking into expanding to other platforms, but will continue to support our ST products. The ST is not the only amazingly neat machine that is marketed everywhere EXCEPT the US. The Acorn RISC-based machines from England are in the same position. GA .Tom at ICD> In order to grow you MUST go international in the Atari market. And after a while, as the Codeheads have seen, you must spread to other platforms. That does NOT mean that we are abandoning Atari. Just need to pay the bills. ga .Gordie> One of my pet theories is that there are, in fact, a lot more STs in North America than anyone, especially Atari Corp., knows about. But they are so spread out that there is no effective way to reach them. Anyone care to comment? Either in agreement or disagreement? GA .Tom at ICD> Or else they are in warehouses. ;-) DABRUMLEVE> Gordie, there really are lots of "closet" STers. They aren't really IN closets, but they aren't buying mags or going to user group meetings. GA .Nathan ISD/IAAD> The sad reality is that Atari has not expanded its market penetration in both Canada and the US in years. Meanwhile, the software and the 3rd party hardware, such as Tom's excellent products, have gotten better and better. All we really need is for Atari to do some serious marketing. Let the public know that they still exist, etc. Before they can do that, they must have FCC approval, they must have inventory, they must have channels of distribution and the list goes on. They are not unaware of these facts and have taken steps to deal with the situation. We ALL have no choice but to wait and see how well they accomplish their job. ga .John at CodeHead> I'm not really sure whether there are more (or maybe fewer) machines than Atari claims, but our problem seems to be that we have effectively saturated that portion of the ST market that we _can_ reach. It seems that these days all we can count on are sales of updates to those users who loyally support our products. There seem to be no "new" Atari owners to speak of, which makes it a very stagnant market which does not grow. Marketing is desperately needed in ANY form, but it's just not coming. ga .Nathan ISD/IAAD> Bottom line, we cannot sell software if Atari doesn't ship some hardware. ga .Tom at ICD> And Atari cannot ship hardware unless they have dealers that can find customers to sell the hardware to. .Gordie> If we can take a brief moment, Tom hasn't had an opportunity to introduce himself. Tom? .Tom at ICD> Thanks Gordie. Sorry I was late here. I am one of the founders of ICD, Inc., which makes hardware products for Atari, Amiga, and Macintosh computers. We have been supporting Atari since we started in 1984 and it still is 40 to 50% of our sales. ga {A glitch caused the moderator to be temporarily disconnected from the group. During his absense, Nathan offered some information on the IAAD} .Nathan ISD/IAAD> The IAAD was founded back about 2 years ago basically to allow Atari developers to help each other, in terms of marketing, sales, advertising, distributors, connections, contacts, etc. As I mentioned earlier, we do contain about 80-90% of the existing COMMERCIAL Atari developers in North America. And even though many of us have competing products, the amount of cooperation has been unprecedented in any group of developers. ga .Gordie> Before Tymnet so rudely interrupted me, I was going to ask all of you to talk a little bit about how 'big' your respective companies are, so we can get an idea of who we, as users, are dealing with. Tom? .Tom at ICD> ICD has 2,345 employees and 5.4 billion $ in sales. (Actually make that about 50 employyes and I will never tell the sales figures.) We found that we had to diversify when we reached around 20 people. .Gordie> Hehehe, that's 50 worldwide, right? .Tom at ICD> That is around 15 in the office (R&D, clerical, lame officers, and other fat cats), and around 25 in manufacturing in the USA and 3 in Germany. .Gordie> Nathan? .Nathan ISD/IAAD> I'll tell, I'll tell, Toms sales figures are *)&_*()*_()*&)% ISD and Ditek have about 12 staff in Toronto, and then we have representatives worldwide. DynaCADD is now translated in 4 languages with 2 more appearing shortly. .Gordie> John, how about CodeHeads? .John at CodeHead> We are basically a partnership of two programmers trying to run a company. We have one part time employee helping with the phones and orders. Even so, with nine products we may be the most prolific company for Atari, now that Michtron has bit the dust. .Tom at ICD> Whoops! Another 10 that are lost somewhere. ga .Gordie> And Dorothy? DABRUMLEVE> Well, our office has seven bedrooms. Big enough for you? I do have an educational consultant and over 300 beta-testers... .John at CodeHead> 300 beta-testers? Wow. DABRUMLEVE> And our entire staff has advanced university degrees... so there. .Gordie> So we're talking about maybe 75 actual employees between you all. DABRUMLEVE> Maybe. .John at CodeHead> Sounds about right. .Tom at ICD> I am sure that Dot's staff has more cumulative education than all of ours. ga .Gordie> Probably less than Microsoft has in a single office full of cubicles. .Nathan ISD/IAAD> That's probably accurate and I'd agree with Tom's assessment of Dorothy's staff. DABRUMLEVE> I would like to correct my fellow panel member. .Nathan ISD/IAAD> oh oh DABRUMLEVE> MichTron is still in business. .John at CodeHead> Oh, sorry. DABRUMLEVE> It's been sold, and Jim Dorsman of the new MichTron is actively marketing the products. .John at CodeHead> Then they probably have more products than we do. Not that nine is any big deal. :^) .Gordie> So it's important to note that every sale you folks make is noticed. Where Microsoft, et al, can afford a certain amount of 'preview' copies, whereas, you folks can not. DABRUMLEVE> No, every borrowed copy hurts. .Nathan ISD/IAAD> More accurate would be to say that every single sale that we make is important. None of us can afford PIRACY, or more accurately, none of us are Microsoft, and PIRACY could affect the very manner in which we can afford to support our products!! .Gordie> I think that many in the Atari community have seen the folly of rampant piracy, and its effects. But it's still too easy to steal from faceless entity somewhere far away. But all of you are real live people. I know, I've met most of you. And you have the same needs that all of us have. And the same problems. When you steal software, you are taking money out of a real person's pocket. Not some corporate bank account that won't miss it. That is what has to be brought out. .Nathan ISD/IAAD> Don't let anyone tell you that there is more PIRACY on the Atari than on the IBM or MAC because there isn't, but because of the substantial difference between the size of the existing user bases, every single THEFT hurts. And aren't you glad you brought this up. :-) ga .Gordie> Go ahead, Nathan. .Nathan ISD/IAAD> More reality is that a company such as Microsoft can afford to lose a percentage of its gross to PIRACY and survive. Our reality is that, in many cases, particularly in games, the percentage of PIRACY is higher than the actual sales. And then there is software rental, in almost all cases, an invitation to PIRATE. Perhaps John would care to comment on that. ga .John at CodeHead> All of us who have hung in there with the Atari have basically done it for the love of the machines and the people who use them. Those who are purely interested in making money have long since left this market. ga DABRUMLEVE> Good programs don't materialize effortlessly. It takes months to hammer out the best interface, get out the bugs, provide for automatic installation, etc. This is real work. When people use the program without paying for it, it's the programmer's work that goes unpaid. I don't know many people who would be anxious to work without compensation. GA .Nathan ISD/IAAD> John raised the most basic point. We LOVE our Atari's, from the 1040 to the TT's. We ask all of you to help us to be able to afford to continue in this market. I'm not talking about Atari here. There are still new products being released for the ST/TT platform as well as current products being upgraded or enhanced for the TT. If you need to see a product, get the DEMO. Almost every single company has one available. If you like what you see, buy the program!! ga .Tom at ICD> ICD actually started out doing software. We quickly realized that many users did not respect it so we switched to hardware which has "built-in" protection. Of course, there is not much room for many hardware vendors in this market. Software is what computers are really about. Respect the developers. Support them. Pay for their wares. ga .Gordie> Well, unless any of you has anything else you'd like to say, I'll open it to audience questions. .John at CodeHead> Fire away. .Gordie> Okay, let's see if I can remember how to do this... .Nathan ISD/IAAD> :-) RMORROW> Why would schools that already have Apple stuff be willing to reinvest in Atari programs, no matter how much *better*? ga DABRUMLEVE> I bet that's for me. Apple machines are archaic by today's standards. There is a _lot_ of educational software available for the Apple, and some teachers are still satisfied with it... but not the ones who see what's available for the ST. So, when a school is ready to update its hardware, it is likely to look at the hardware from the same manufacturer (Apple). But the cost-performance situation with the basic Mac and the basic ST is just no contest: The ST has color, which is really important with smaller children. And the Mac educational software is no more innovative than the Apple edsoft was. The stuff for the ST is a world apart, and teachers who have worked with the other know it immediately. I think there is a great market for the STe in education. I have thought all along that that was where Atari's low-end machines belonged. I'd like to ask Bob Brodie to comment if I may Gordie. .Gordie> Sure, why not? DABRUMLEVE> Bob? BOBBRO> Well, in addition to Dorothy's already well thought out comments, I'd like to point out that developers are starting to drop the Apple II line. Electronic Arts, for example, is dropping the entire Apple II line, including the GS. So the schools are indeed going to be looking for another platform to carry out their work on. For the elementary end of things, we've got good things to talk about with software like Dorothy's. And on the college end, in specific areas, we've got GREAT things in DTP, CAD, image software, etc. The biggest thing that we have to do is combat the middle ground in high schools. Actually, one of the biggest customers that we have is an educational VAR that has placed THOUSANDS of STs in school districts throughout the US. Computer Curriculum Corp. sells the ST as it's own product, though. The Atari label isn't seen anywhere on the device. They instead sell a COMPUTER CURRICULUM LEARNING STATION that is in reality a 1040 ST. GA .Tom at ICD> Bob, What kind of incentive plan does Atari have for educational purchases? i.e. IBM or Apple discount programs. BOBBRO> At this point, we don't have one, Tom. But in every instance that I have been contacted by a college student asking for such a program, I... (BOB's signal was lost at this point) DABRUMLEVE> oops. .Gordie> Indeed. Well, Bob got completely knocked off. .Tom at ICD> Guess I overloaded that question. ga DABRUMLEVE> Maybe Bob was about to say he pointed out that the STe is already priced so low that it doesn't need an incentive program. One thing I as a VAR point out to teachers is that by buying our STe bundle, they can have a computer AND 11 programs for the price of 11 Apple programs alone. GA .Tom at ICD> But consumers need a discount! IBM gives 40 to 60% off. DABRUMLEVE> With the STe they get one Tom, ask ANY dealer! The list price is discounted compared to those other platforms. ga .Nathan ISD/IAAD> I might add that we have always had an agressive educational policy for DynaCADD and Calamus. Paired with the Atari, the total workstation cost is far below the other platforms. ga BOBBRO> Fell offline, sorry. Anyway, what I was saying is that in every instance where I have checked with a college student, we're still cheaper than the discount... DABRUMLEVE> hehehe! .Gordie> On the nose, Dorothy. BOBBRO> Although I agree it's something that we should do. The real issue is in getting the machines more available in the bookstores. .Tom at ICD> Please! .Gordie> That sounds like a plan! BOBBRO> You know me too well, Dorothy. We've never discussed this at all, have we? :) .Gordie> Okay, then on to Raven, with a question about languages. .Raven> I wanted to know if Dot would pursue language tutor prgs? DABRUMLEVE> I've thought about that because I am a linguist, but actually there are some fine ones already, even a very good PD one. .Gordie> And one from Zissis about Unix. ZISSIS> How well do you think UNIX based software will interface with the ATARI TT? BOBBRO> Sounds like one for me. We are working very aggresively on UNIX at Atari. We have hired an group of UNIX experts to help us in this market. We have licensed ATT System 5, currently working with Release 4.2 (so far as I know), and it is working fairly well. We have also hired a UNIX marketing expert who is now learning about TOS from us (grin) while he shares some of his UNIX expertise with people like myself. I expect to see UNIX developer packages go out late in June to developers that we know are intersted in this type of support from Atari. We have already attended several UNIX specific shows, and find that there is considerable interest in UNIX on our platform. I personally find that very encouraging. ga .Gordie> How about one from Bob Trowbridge about STs in schools. .BobT@KC> Lincoln Academy at K.C. already uses a lot of STs. .Gordie> That was easy. BOBBRO> Glad to hear it, Bob! I hope they use Dorothy's stuff. CHRYSTAL> To DABRUMLEVE... Is the ST a West Coast educational phenomenon? As one with many years of school experience, I have NEVER seen an ST of any stripe in a classroom (in Conn. or NY or for that matter, Michigan). Also, since Bob Brodie is here, how about enlisting college students to market STs to their peers? Just an idea... :) DABRUMLEVE> I am aware of entire school systems in Milwaukee and Detroit with STs. And locally, we have three schools with STs right here in the heart of Illinois. I think the ST is kind of "invisible" in some schools. Like Bob says, there are many that don't even have the Atari markings, so you may not be aware of them even if you are looking at them. BOBBRO> From our end, no...it is most certainly not a west coast thing! .Nathan ISD/IAAD> I know of quite a few schools in the Toronto area as well, real far from the west cost. ga BOBBRO> We sell the machines to CCC, who in turn market them all over the USA. Re the idea of marketing through college students, not a bad idea, but we'd need a lot more people to make that work. For the time being, I'd rather concentrate on just having the machines for sale in the bookstores on campus. ga .Gordie> How about one from Raven for Tom Harker. .Raven> Why is ICD's lastest software not online here on Delphi like it is on GEnie. I do not call there, but would like to use the latest upgrades. .Tom at ICD> We are trying to work out an ICD account with Gordie and Clay so we can support people on Delphi. In the meantime our software is available on our own BBS at 815-968-2229 ga .Gordie> We're working on it, folks. Maybe soon. .Raven> Could we U/L it here ourselves? Bob, is there a path for upgrading the older ST's? Like trade ins? ga BOBBRO> Not at this time. Sorry. .BobT@KC> Are user groups doing enough? BOBBRO> Bob, I think the user groups are on the balence, very helpful. Of course, there are both ends of the spectrum in that area. There are some that would love me to show up, so they could hang me. And there others that are still very excited about their machines, and want to hear "the latest and greatest". Naturally, the latter groups are the ones that I tend to gravitate toward. ga .Tom at ICD> If I may comment, an Atari supporter was asking earlier about the "Atari trade in program"... I think it would be a big help if that Atari user, instead of trading his old computer to Atari, was to convert some novice into a new Atari user by selling him his machine. That would take some of the marketing load off of Atari. ga BOBBRO> Actually, I was wrong when I said that there were no plans for a trade in. We are in the process of putting together an 8 bit trade in program that would allow them a very cost effective means of upgrading to an ST. But from ST to STE is a different issue, I'm afraid. ga .Tom at ICD> There go our 8-bit sales! ga BOBBRO> :) .Gordie> That might tip the balance for some long-time 8-bitters. I've got one from RMORROW. RMORROW> Dot, how about typing tutor prgs for us big kids? What good is a computer if you can't typw ell? :-) ga DABRUMLEVE> I recommend Mavis Beacon. My son has learned touch-typing quite well with it. .Gordie> And one from Zissis. ZISSIS> Are any of you going to support the "new" interface ports of the ATARI mega STE? .Tom at ICD> No plans at this time from ICD. ga .Nathan ISD/IAAD> Are you referrring to the VME? ZISSIS> Yes, and the dual modem ports. BOBBRO> Well, we are! :) We are actively pushing some networking software for the SCC Lan port, and getting some VME cards "out and about" as well. .John at CodeHead> We have no VME or serial ports plans. ga .Nathan ISD/IAAD> I believe that at least two companies, Gadgets and Fast Tech are working on 68030 boards for the STe. .Gordie> It's getting pretty late out East, so we'll take a couple more questions then call it a night. .Dave> Bob, is Atari considering extending its warranty period? DONE. BOBBRO> Dave, yes we are. It's pretty clear that we need to do something about that issue, and it's one that's in the works. Not just for an extended warranty, but one that will address the high end users that will need on site service as well. .Gordie> Then we'll take one last one from JBEAU. JBEAU> Nathan, what is on the horizon for us 'POWER' Calamus users who aren't interested in upgrading our system, only the software? Any chance of color capabilities for normal ST or STe? .Nathan ISD/IAAD> The two new versions of Calamus will be S and SL. The modules will all be compatible with both, with one exception; 4 color separation will only be available with SL. I am currently using my Mega ST with a 16 Mhz board to run a beta version of SL. It works fine. However, once you start using virtual memory and importing 10 MBYTE 800 DPI scanned color images, you're going to wish you were running a 68030 at 25 Mhz etc. It will not work on the standard Atari monitor but will work on standard VGA. Sorry, it will also work on standard SM125. I intend on releasing SL in July. S will follow shortly thereafter. ga JBEAU> ga .Gordie> Well, that's about as much as we can handle for one night in a formal conference. I'd like to thank all of the developers for being here tonight, and Bob Brodie for his valuable perspective on things, as well. .John at CodeHead> Our pleasure. BOBBRO> I appreciate Dorothy Brumleve letting me know about this! .Nathan ISD/IAAD> As John said, thank you for asking us. .Tom at ICD> I enjoyed it, thanks. .Gordie> The first ST Online Panel Discussion is herby ended... ***************************************************************** Remember that Delphi's 20/20 Advantage Plan gives you 20 hours of online time a month for $20, with additional hours at just $1.20 per hour. Those big downloads cost a lot less at $1/hour! If you're already a Delphi member, type GO USING ADVANTAGE for more details. 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