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The system will prompt you for your information. ========================================================================== ************ Topic 14 Wed Aug 01, 1990 GRIBNIF at 14:36 EDT Sub: NeoDesk 3 - The Ultimate Desktop The topic area handles all messages concerning the NeoDesk 3 desktop replacement package by Gribnif Software. 204 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 1 Sat Jul 10, 1993 J.TOWLER1 [John] at 04:02 EDT Dan I picked up a copy of one of the British mags (Atari ST User, June '93) which has a review of NeoDesk 3 (very positive too). Anyway, one of the screen captures shows the desktop in mono with a nifty secretary's pad for Desktop Notes. When I use Notes, they appear directly on the desktop. How did they get the steno pad? A NeoDesk ACC maybe? I'm using ND 3.03 - John ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 2 Sat Jul 10, 1993 K.HOUSER [Kevin MQ Def] at 09:10 EDT John, The DeskTop notes you saw were on the desktop. It just happens that the background picture had a "notepad" in it. :) --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 3 Sat Jul 10, 1993 DMJ [dmj] at 15:58 EDT John: As I recall, that picture is actually on your NeoDesk Extras disk. Look for it. -dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 4 Sun Jul 11, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou][Machine] at 03:25 EDT John, I have the same magazine. That picture of the notepad is just that, a picture... as in a background picture. --Lou T.-- Written: Sunday, July 11, 1993 01:27 a.m. EDT ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 5 Sun Jul 11, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 11:51 EDT Background pictures can do all sorts of wonders for a NeoDesk desktop. I uploaded some NeXT-style desktop backgrounds quite a while ago; they're worth trying out for a different look. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 6 Sun Jul 11, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou][Machine] at 18:45 EDT Al, Do you use any desktop pictures in TT med resolution? --Lou T.-- Written: Sunday, July 11, 1993 03:13 p.m. EDT ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 7 Sun Jul 11, 1993 DMJ [dmj] at 23:11 EDT I have a couple of really nice desktop pictures. Basically, I swiped the MARBLE.BMP from Windoze and remapped it so the colors work well in ST Medium. This I use as the Warp 9 desktop picture. Then I took a snapshot of "NeoDesk" written in the Flash font inside PageStream, which looks uncannily like the "NeoDesk" written on the manual cover, and applied it to this marble picture with a sculpted look. This I use as my NeoDesk desktop picture. Background pictures *do* make the entire system look nicer. -dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 8 Mon Jul 12, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 17:29 EDT Lou, NeoDesk cannot currently load pictures (for the background) in TT Medium rez. Ed, Networking is a little beyond the scope of NeoDesk, I'm afraid. John, The "Notes" pad is actually a desktop picture I drew some time ago. It appears on the NeoDesk Extras disk. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 9 Mon Jul 12, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 18:03 EDT Lou, No. My desktop is filled with running apps, since I am running Geneva all the time. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 10 Mon Jul 12, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 19:57 EDT But LittleNet, the DA networking software, works just fine under NeoDesk, and my wife and I would be sad without it. I back up her 20-meg drive to my 1400- meg setup over the network, while each computer, under Geneva, is busy doing other things. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 11 Tue Jul 13, 1993 T.HEBEL [Spud Boy] at 22:39 EDT How did you convert the .BMP? ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 12 Tue Jul 13, 1993 B.AEIN [B Man] at 22:53 EDT Would I be able to backup to ICD's Tape while doing other things under geneva? Bman ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 13 Wed Jul 14, 1993 DMJ [dmj] at 00:30 EDT Spud Boy: I used a custom program, which will be integrated into DMJ GIF 4. STyle reads Windows & OS/2 .BMP files, and there are probably other programs that do as well. -dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 14 Wed Jul 14, 1993 AEO.5 [Ed Krimen] at 22:34 EDT GEM-View reads BMP files. ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 15 Thu Jul 15, 1993 J.TOWLER1 [John] at 01:37 EDT Thanks for the replies. I'll have to dig out my Extras disk I guess. Anytime I've tried using background pictures in the past, my screen (which is mono) has reversed colors, so I've left it vanilla. I'll try again though. - John ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 16 Thu Jul 15, 1993 DMJ [dmj] at 20:07 EDT John: Does your screen actually reverse colors, or does the picture display in inverse? If it's the latter, the image needs to be inverted or you need to use the NeoDesk CP to toggle the colors. -dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 17 Sat Jul 17, 1993 R.BEATTY3 [Buffalo Bob] at 00:04 EDT Lou, I don't think it is possible to use pictures in NeoDesk when in TT Medium resolution. The ST resolutions all use .PI? format pictures, which don't "fit" a TT Medium screen. I'd like to see the option in NeoDesk to use the standard GEM desktop image. With Warp 9 you can load .PNT images, and I just fond a nifty program on CIS called Deskpic (from Europe) that pastes Windows- like wallpaper on an ST/TT screen. I think it was made for the Falcon, but works on my TT in all resolutions. Their color pallette seems to shift, though. The primary 8 colors go to position 7-15 will the darker shades move to 0-7 slots. Gotta figure that one out before it becomes a fixture... Bob Beatty Neutronics Honolulu, HI ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 18 Sat Jul 17, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou @Machine] at 04:07 EDT Buffalo Bob, Thanks for the info... Yeah... I see now that you can not load a desktop pic in TT med with NeoDesk 3.03, I guess I just got so used to Warp 9, that I forgot. I use a real nice one for TT Low res via W9 (but that is another TOPic). Maybe future versions of NeoDesk will support other picture formats like PNT for the larger resolutions especially since there are now Falcon users that access the higher resolutions. --Lou T.-- Written: Saturday, July 17, 1993 03:24 a.m. EDT ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 19 Sat Jul 17, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 19:59 EDT Bob, Use the desktop pics in monochrome and the problem will go away (the shifting). Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 21 Mon Jul 19, 1993 J.SHRAGER1 [JosePh] at 18:22 EDT I have neodesk 3 and I am thinking of getting TOS 1.4 for my 1040 st. The 1.4 will be cheaper to install than the 2.06. Does anyone know of any reason why I might opt for 2.06? Or will 1.4 with neodesk 3 and a good hard drive be just as good? -Joe ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 22 Mon Jul 19, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 21:01 EDT Joe, 2.06 is a better OS, so you should choose that no matter what alternative desktop you will be running. A good hard drive is, of course, an excellent option. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 23 Mon Jul 19, 1993 PMC.INC at 21:48 EDT I'd sure like to be able to put a picture on the TT med. res desktop. I have one just waiting to be displayed (it's been waiting for a while...) oscar ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 24 Tue Jul 20, 1993 W.HYNES at 03:38 EDT Joe, If you decide to go with 2.06 just make sure your programs will run on it. I have a few ST's and can't upgrade one of them because I use it for something that won't run on anything above 1.4 and there is no longer any support for it so it will never be upgraded to run above it. -Bill- ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 25 Wed Jul 21, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 14:28 EDT Everyone, Using a background picture in non-ST resolutions will be part of NeoDesk 4. Joe, The only significant difference between TOS 1.4 and 2.06 where an older machine is concerned is the desktop. Since you plan to use NeoDesk anyway (and why you would want to use Atari's desktop is beyond me ), there really isn't any reason to get 2.06. Bman, I am not certain how ICD's tape software works, but since it most likely does not allow access to the menu bar, you would not be able to do anything else while this is going on. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 26 Wed Jul 21, 1993 J.WISNIEWSK2 [Jeff - ST'er] at 22:45 EDT >Bman, >I am not certain how ICD's tape software works, but since it most >likely does not allow access to the menu bar, you would not be able to >do anything else while this is going on. The ICD tape software does not allow access to the menu bar, but it can run with a script file - maybe you can set it up to run at a certain time. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ JSW ^^^^ ^^^^ ST'er ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Wednesday, July 21, 1993 - 10:22:12 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 27 Sat Jul 24, 1993 J.TOWLER1 [John] at 03:24 EDT >DMJ [dmj] at 20:07 EDT > >John: > >Does your screen actually reverse colors, or does the picture display in >inverse? If it's the latter, the image needs to be inverted or you need to >use the NeoDesk CP to toggle the colors. > Actually I tried again and it's working fine. The problems I had were in using background pics with Superboot or Warp 9. Since I wasn't really that worried about backgrounds anyways, I just shrugged and moved on. But the notepad is nice and makes Desktop Notes really visible. I just had to open up Degas Elite to move the pad where I wanted it. - John ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 28 Fri Jul 30, 1993 C.BINCKLEY [-- Chuck --] at 06:51 EDT Okay, since I haven't seen anyone else ask this yet... How much will current owners of NeoDesk versions prior to 3.03 (the Geneva- compatible update) have to pay to get the Geneva/NeoDesk4 package? Would we save money by ordering the Geneva-beta program for $50 and then getting NeoDesk4 alone when it is available as an upgrade? Or will the price of an upgrade to the G/ND4 _package_ - IF one is made available - be less than $50+the price of an ND3->ND4 upgrade? Enquiring (and CHEAP) minds want to know!(8^})... -- Chuck -- ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 29 Sat Jul 31, 1993 C.ALLEN17 [Cliff] at 09:19 EDT Have encountered a problem. I am experimenting with NeoDesk on my Mega4 (while awaiting Geneva). I have NeoDesk autoboot. 1) With the A drive window open, I go under "View" and select "Print Directory". 2) From the dialog box I select size, date, time and folder contents. 3) With the printer offline, I select the "File" option. The file select box comes up, I type in a name for the file. 4) Geneva does its thing but then tells me my printer is not Ready. I select cancel and Geneva continues to write to the disk. Part of the File select dialog box remains on the A dive window. 5) Even though the A drive window shows the DIR.TXT I just created (0 bytes), with a window redraw it shows 1307 bytes. 6) If I pull this file (DIR.TXT) into an ASCII editor, this file shows shows DIR.TXT as having only 0 bytes. 7) If prior to step 3, I put the printer online, it ejects a blank sheet of paper. Still reading the manual, and trying different settings. Just plain experimenting. This is fun. As soon as I become a little more comfortable with NeoDesk, I will be installing it on my TT. Cliff (Ashevillite) ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 30 Thu Aug 05, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 16:55 EDT Cliff, You've come across a couple of known bugs in NeoDesk 3.03. The best way around the problem with it trying to send a formfeed when the output is going to a file is to use the Printer Queue to set "Form feed after every file" to Off. Then, Save Configuration. Chuck, The prices haven't been finalized yet, but ordering Geneva now and getting the Neo 3->4 upgrade will still be cheaper than getting the two of them together. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 31 Thu Aug 05, 1993 C.ALLEN17 [Cliff] at 19:47 EDT Dan, Thanks for the info. I'll give it a try. am still awaiting Geneva. Cliff (Ashevillite) ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 33 Fri Aug 06, 1993 R.LIBBY3 (Forwarded) Dan... The other day I bought a new copy of Neodesk 2. I guess I should have examined the demo more closely and bought ver 3. Upon reading manual, and following instructions, I found that it will not work on Low- Rez. (probably not a surprise to the rest of the world), and that the "Advanced Features" seciton of the manual, wherin is found the needed magic to cause the program to execute automatically (page 9, para 2) cannot be found. The question is..How can I auto-boot the program? (it is in an auto folder on drive C) and how can I upgrade to ver 3. whatever?..Sustem is a 1 meg ST, original OS. (havent sent in the warranty card yet, but the serial is 3304) ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 34 Sat Aug 07, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:38 EDT R. Libby, Really, you should just trade up to Neo 3.04. I know this sounds like a know- it-all comment, but you are wasting your time with the older version. And then download my Secrets of NeoDesk, here in the library under NEOSECR.LZY or something close to that. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 35 Sat Aug 07, 1993 P.LEFEBVRE [T.K.] at 22:24 EDT I have noticed a problem with NeoDesk 3.04 (the upgrade that came with Geneva). When in medium res, if I try to drag an icon that is on the desktop, only the top half of it gets moved. It will appear where it is supposed to be after a screen refresh, however, so it is merely cosmetic. -- Paul ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 36 Sun Aug 08, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 11:48 EDT I have the same problem with dragged icons breaking up that Paul reports. ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 37 Sun Aug 08, 1993 R.BUSH [Richard Bush] at 20:14 EDT >I have noticed a problem with NeoDesk 3.04 (the upgrade that came with >Geneva). When in medium res, if I try to drag an icon that is on the >desktop, only the top half of it gets moved. It will appear where it >is supposed to be after a screen refresh, however, so it is merely >cosmetic. I've noticed that, too. Since the outline isn't accurate it's kind of hard to put the icons exactly where you want them. ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 38 Mon Aug 09, 1993 R.LIBBY3 [Ralph] at 22:40 EDT OK, I agree that ver 3 is what I need. Is my previous money down the drain, or is there a deal for upgrading, as opposed to new purchase? ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 39 Tue Aug 10, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 13:11 EDT Ralph, Gribnif usually has arrangements for upgrading. Dan should have a response here soon, when he comes up for air in the Geneva project. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 40 Thu Aug 12, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 14:15 EDT R.Libby, To upgrade from version 2 to version 3, you need to send us the original disk and a check for $25 + $3 S&H. Here is our current address: P.O. Box 779 Northampton, MA 01061 To autoboot it, you need to use STARTGEM (which is in the EXTRAS folder). Copy STARTGEM.PRG to the AUTO folder and STARTGEM.INF to the root directory. You will then have to modify STARTGEM.INF with a text editor, so that the path reads: C:\neodesk\neomastr.prg Yes, NeoDesk 3 works in low rez. Paul, David, & Richard, Yeah, somebody else noticed that, too. It's a problem in the medium rez resource file. Fortunately, you won't have to use 3.04 for too much longer . Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 41 Fri Aug 13, 1993 R.LIBBY3 [Ralph] at 00:09 EDT Dan...Thanks.."old" disk is on the way, with a check.. ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 42 Thu Aug 19, 1993 D.SWARTLEY at 21:13 EDT Dan, I have NeoDesk 3.01 running on a MegaSt2 under TOS 1.02. When I delete a folder from one window by dragging to the trash can and then try to copy a folder with the same name from another drive's window I get a message saying that a file with that name already exists. It asks if I want to create new or use old filename. If I say new it refuses to act. If I say use old it goes ahead and writes to the disk but the copied folder and files never show up in the window. What's happening? The only way around this has been for me to reformat the floppy I'm copying to and then proceed. Thanks, Don ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 43 Fri Aug 20, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:47 EDT Don, 3.01? You need to upgrade to 3.03 or 3.04. A lot has changed since 3.01. (I'll be danged if I knew that 3.01 even existed; 3.02 seems to have been the version that most users had...) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 44 Fri Aug 20, 1993 D.SWARTLEY at 20:02 EDT What is the cost to upgrade from 3.01 to 3.04? ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 45 Fri Aug 20, 1993 T.WRATHER [Thomas] at 22:04 EDT Is there a way to get NeoDesk 3.03 to run under MultiTOS? When I double click on NEOLOAD, I get sent back to the Atari Desktop. I have the 'GLOBAL' flag set on NEOLOAD (I didn't set it; it just came that way). Without MultiTOS, NeoDesk loads fine. Thomas ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 46 Sat Aug 21, 1993 B.AEIN [B Man] at 19:08 EDT Dan Will Neo 4 address the limited file names of Tos/Dos? I am looking at a project to deal with the 12 letter limit and would rather not be reinventing the wheel. Thanks Bman P.s. How about that Data Diet on/off automation? ;') ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 48 Sun Aug 22, 1993 J.WISNIEWSK2 [Jeff - ST'er] at 13:52 EDT >This conversion and installation stuff is a real royal pain in the >ass!!!!!!!! The instllation and conversion programs are fairly straight forward. How else would you get the programs on your drive if not by a installation program?. >But of course INF_CONV.PRG had not already been converted and the >existing INF_CONV.PRG when I try to run it says it will run only from >3.01. Was the file compressed or something like that?. What version of NeoDesk do you have?. Did the rest of NeoDesk convert for you?. And for what it is worth - the upgrades from NeoDesk 3.01 have been available on GEnie for awhile now in the form of patches. ********************************* Number: 19193 Name: PATCH302.ARC Address: GRIBNIF Date: 910430 Approximate # of bytes: 184448 Number of Accesses: 592 Library: 21 Description: ====> NEODESK 3.01 TO 3.02 UPGRADE PATCH PROGRAM <==== --------------------------------- ********************************* Number: 27669 Name: NEOP302A.LZH Address: GRIBNIF Date: 930212 Approximate # of bytes: 240256 Number of Accesses: 313 Library: 21 This will path NeoDesk v3.02 to v3.03. --------------------------------- ********************************* Number: 27725 Name: NEO_CONV.LZH Address: GRIBNIF Date: 930215 Approximate # of bytes: 8192 Number of Accesses: 131 Library: 21 This will convert the 3.02 INF files to 3.03. --------------------------------- >I'm not in the mood to send my disks back to GRIBNIF and wait a week. You can get the needed files from the library. >I strongly urge someone from GRIBNIF to EMAIL me the correct version >of INF_CONV.PRG which is for the conversion of 3.02 files to 3.03 >files. Did you tell them what version of NeoDesk you had?. Did you think to look in the library for the file?. >Wow whatever happened to "user friendliness" on the ST? It went the same place as customer friendliness!. You run a business and this is the type of message you post!. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ JSW ^^^^ ^^^^ ST'er ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Sunday, August 22, 1993 - 1:16:32 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 49 Sun Aug 22, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 16:26 EDT Jeff, Kudos. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 50 Sun Aug 22, 1993 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 17:55 EDT People, Please don't post serial numbers in the BBS. DO you think it would be too hard to make up a disk label with the number on it? The post (47) is deleted and cced to Grbnif. Please use EMail or cat 18 if a response is necessary. No offence meant. BTW, can't the upgrade be done on a b/u? It was so long ago I pathced it that I forget. Jeff, you forgot the spaces at the beginning of each line. ~~~~Brian ... Written on Sunday 22 August 1993 at 06:17 p.m. ADT ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 51 Sun Aug 22, 1993 J.ZORZIN [Joe.Z.] at 18:51 EDT >It went the same place as customer friendliness!. You run a business and this >is the type of message you post!. Thats right. I know how to follow instructions and the process failed so I think I have a right to let off some steam! The upgrade nstallation program which I received when I purchased Geneva first examined my "master" and "extras" disks- and said all the right files were in all the right places. Then while doing the conversions it indicated that there was a problem with the existing INF_CONV.RSC file. My only options were to SKIP or to ABORT. I don't consider that very good error trapping. >The instllation and conversion programs are fairly straight forward. How else >would you get the programs on your drive if not by a installation program?. By dragging them over with your mouse! I have a vast amount of ST software and thats how it all got on my hardrive. This installations nonsense belongs in the DOS world not here. Also, it amazes me that for an update so minor as to be measured in the second decimal place- that almost every GRIBNIF file under the sun needs to be modified and all associated files. And I have to go through this twice to go from 3.02 to 3.03 to 3.04. I can't be the only person who considers this excessive. Nowadays discs are cheap- why not just ship the fully modified programs- and then GRIBNIF could also save all the time it takes to prepare the patches. ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 52 Sun Aug 22, 1993 K.SPRINGER1 [FROZEN NORTH] at 22:24 EDT Whoa! Are we having a bad hair day or what?! Let's cool down and think about this for a minute. Why installation programs? Because, believe it or not, there are those who cannot grasp this process even though it is so much simpler to do than a command line installation. Also, and installation prg can check the system the software is being installed on, and move only the files necessary. Although I can move the appropriate files myself, usually, I like the convenience of having the computer do the work! :-) On the other side of the coin, I also found the Neodesk patch prgs somewhat confusing. I don't remember why, but do remember getting frustrated with it. I did succeed though. I'd like to suggest that Gribnif look into providing patch upgrades similar to what the Codeheads did with Multidesk Deluxe. The upgrade disk has more than one patch data file and one program to install the patch, and you simply select the data file that matched the version of the software you had installed, and you were up to the latest version in one step. With the Neodesk system, you had to upgrade to each version sequentially, I believe. Well, just my 2 cents worth. Ken S. ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 53 Sun Aug 22, 1993 J.WISNIEWSK2 [Jeff - ST'er] at 23:20 EDT Joe, >Thats right. I know how to follow instructions and the process >failed so I think I have a right to let off some steam! How about answering the questions so people can try to figure out your problem, then if the fault was Gribnif let off steam. It might not be Gribnif's fault. Just don't immediatly blame the company or software when in the world of computing there is also operator error to consider. But that might not be the case here and we will not know until you calm down and answer the questions of people trying to help you. If you have read my last message you would have found out that there was a version of the INF_CONV updater that had problems with the older TOS's but that it was re-released with the fixes. >I don't consider that very good error trapping. Well I am glad that there are no such things as bugs. >By dragging them over with your mouse! That way is rather old and archaic way to install software, especially if there are quite a few files across more than one disk. This is the time of computers and it is time for them to start doing more and more of the work. Have you ever installed Calligrapher, Word-Up, Timeworks Desktop Publisher and others?. >I have a vast amount of ST software and thats how it all got on my >hardrive. I also have a VAST amount of ST software and a good part of it got installed on my hard-drive by installation programs without any problems. >This installations nonsense belongs in the DOS world not here. I think that you will find that quite a few of the IBM/MAC programs now have installation programs and more are being added every day. It adds to the ease- of-use that customers want and expect. (And also ask for). >it amazes me that for an update so minor as to be measured in the >second decimal place- that almost every GRIBNIF file under the sun >needs to be modified and all associated files. The updates were not minor and really should have been done when they were released. A lot of stuff was fixed/added/improved. And with a program as complex as NeoDesk it only stands to reason that more than one file would have to be changed. >And I have to go through this twice to go from 3.02 to 3.03 to 3.04. The update to 3.02 has been available for two years, why wait so long?. They are available here on GEnie for the cost to download them, which saves on time, postage and trouble of packing up the disks and mailing them back. >Nowadays discs are cheap- why not just ship the fully modified >programs- and then GRIBNIF could also save all the time it takes to >prepare the patches. Disks are cheap, but not the time to put the correct version on the disk, then mail an increased number of disks. What would you rather do: let's say you have 250 upgrades/updates to mail out, you could make up one disk that has the patch programs on it which would make 250 disks, or make up three disks per customer which would make 750 disks. Then pay the extra postage for those disks 250 times. Maybe for one customer it would not be so bad, but multiply the costs by 250 and it is not cheap in any sense. With the Atari market being like it is sometimes this is the only way the company can get the updates out to the users. Please note that that last sentence was in no way a reference to Gribnif, I hope they are doing well and will be around for a long time. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ JSW ^^^^ ^^^^ ST'er ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Sunday, August 22, 1993 - 10:21:20 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 54 Mon Aug 23, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:29 EDT Joe, If Gribnif were Microsoft, maybe that's the way it would happen (although even then it would probably be a hassle). When software such as NeoDesk improves, the changes often require a careful reinstallation; NeoDesk, after all, is not just a program, it's the desktop, and Geneva is not just an add-on, it's a replacement for the AES. Making changes such as these is not a trivial exercise. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 55 Mon Aug 23, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 16:04 EDT Joe, I have sent you private email about your patches. BMan, NeoDesk 4 will not affect the 12.3 file naming convention. However, you probably will be able to have longer names within program groups or for items on the desktop. Don, What you are hitting sounds like a common offshoot of the infamous 40- folder bug. Press Esc (or, with NeoDesk 3.04, Shift-Esc) when you have a window opened to the offending disk, and that should clear it up. The other thing you can do is reset the computer. There are patch programs in the libraries here on GEnie that will take you to 3.03. Thomas, You need to do a couple of things: 1. Make sure that the extension EXE is executable by MTOS. You do this by adding it to the GEMEXT env var in GEM.CNF: setenv GEMEXT=PRG,APP,GTP,EXE 2. Make sure NEOLOAD.PRG is in the AUTO folder, running before MINT.PRG. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 56 Mon Aug 23, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 17:56 EDT Bman, NeoDesk (and even NewDesk) will already let you bypass the 8.3 filename restriction for folders and files on the desktop. Just select the icon and press Control-D; you'll get the dialog for renaming the icon. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 57 Tue Aug 24, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou @Machine] at 04:27 EDT I have noticed that when I am in NeoDesk, sometimes I get the Window Colors that I customized in the Atari CPX (WCOLOR) and sometimes I do not. For the most part, I do not. And for all the neat features that NeoDesk offers, I miss my set window/gadget colors that work in other applications and Atari's NewDesk. Plain black and white window scroll bars and gadgets get boring. Is there a cure for this? If not, a fix for it in the upcoming NeoDesk? Thanks. --Lou T.-- Written: Tuesday, August 24, 1993 02:19 a.m. EDT ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 58 Tue Aug 24, 1993 R.PLAGGENBUR [Ralph / WA] at 17:22 EDT Upon receiving my Geneva and NeoDesk 3.04 upgrade today, I started to upgrade to Neodesk 3.04...I read the instructions, and I'm sure the answer is there but maybe someone could re-word it for me. My problem is my desktop. It goes to the default. I read the not under step 1 of the upgrade, so maybe I don't know hoe to save a .NIC file. What I am after is my old desktop with my Icons on it. The desktop .INF file is the same. Also I ran the macro converter and it didn't appear to convert, it still says wrong format. Ralph ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 60 Wed Aug 25, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:38 EDT Lou, You must be using an older version of NeoDesk. The versions that are current (3.03 and 3.04) pick up the window colors just fine. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 61 Wed Aug 25, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou @Machine] at 21:58 EDT Al, I am using NeoDesk 3.03 with TOS 3.06. My NeoDesk does not pick up the window colors that I have it set to, just plain b/w gadgets and scroll bars. SOMETIMES it does it pick it up, but more often than not, it does not :( Speaking of colors, I would like to once again recommend more color options in NeoDesk 4. Such as background colors for windows (that NewDesk offers). And more important, the ability to create multi-color icons (more than just two colors). These things do not add to the preformance of the computer, but since the monitor screen is our interface with communicating with the computer (along with input devices such as the keyboard and mouse), it is very important. After all it is the thing that I am looking at for the most part of my time on while using the computer. NeoDesk did WONDERS for my desktop on my 1040STE. I would like to see NeoDesk 4 with Geneva do the same with my TT030. Thanks. --Lou T.-- Written: Wednesday, August 25, 1993 09:21 p.m. EDT ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 62 Wed Aug 25, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou @Machine] at 22:16 EDT Well I just rebooted and this time I had NeoDesk load up on boot up and by doing this, I get color window gadgets. But when I boot NeoDesk striaght from the desk without having it load in automatically on boot up. I do not. --Lou T.-- ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 63 Thu Aug 26, 1993 T.HORNIG [Thomas] at 01:30 EDT Hi Dan, I'm not able to get Neodesk working under Multitos. I added the EXE extension to the CNF file but it still won't load I'm using a Mega STe tos 2.06 and the latest Neodesk version (4meg ram). Thomas ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 64 Thu Aug 26, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:15 EDT Lou, Sounds like your RSC file is munged somehow. Rename the one you have and run NeoDesk without it; it will use its defaults. See if that helps. Your newdesk.inf file may also be messed up. You definitely should be getting the window colors. But then, if you get the colors when auto-booting NeoDesk, just run it that way for now. (If you are worried about the RAM that's used by Neo, you can always set it to Unload for Execute; then it uses only 35K when running an app.) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 65 Fri Aug 27, 1993 T.WRATHER [Thomas] at 18:29 EDT Dan, Re: Running NeoDesk 3.03 under MultiTOS I do have EXE as a GEMEXT, and NEOLOAD.PRG is in the AUTO folder before MINT, but NeoDesk still will not run. I have a TT with 2meg ST RAM and 4meg TT RAM, TOS 3.06, no accessories, with XBOOT.PRG, JAR10.PRG, NEOLOAD.PRG, and MINT.PRG in the AUTO folder (in that order). Remove MINT.PRG from the above setup, and NeoDesk loads fine. In some other messages in this topic, I've seen mention of 'shell' Is this something that I should also be setting up? Thanks, Thomas ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 66 Sat Aug 28, 1993 L.HINSLEY [Stargazer] at 01:44 EDT Lou, what Control Panel do you use and how is it loaded?? I'm wondering since the Window Colors CPX controls how the window appears.... ***** Stargazer ***** ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 67 Sat Aug 28, 1993 R.PLAGGENBUR [Ralph / WA] at 16:18 EDT So does anyone have any info yet on a way to keep your old desktop icons and look and feel after I upgrade to 3.04? Ralph ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 68 Sat Aug 28, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 17:51 EDT Ralph, Huh? There's no problem keeping your icons and your look and feel. Do you have the documentation that came with the upgrade? Let me know, and I'll help you after you read the docs. If they are missing, give me some idea where you got the upgrade. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 69 Sat Aug 28, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 23:20 EDT Hi all, I'm feeling quite dumb at the moment, but I'm at a loss and I'm asking anyway! Next week some time I will be installing Geneva. I updated to NeoD 3.04 today in preparation. All went fine. Also in preparation for G I removed NEOLOAD.PRG (in the NEO folder) as AUTO booting. (went to orig. Atari dkstop, etc.) I have Hotwire running NEOLOAD.PRG as AUTO RUN. This works fine in hi and med rez. When I boot to low, I get the med rez screen with low rez accs. (accs & auto prgs set up in boot manager) If I get it to boot into low rez, it stops at the orig. desktop without auto booting NEOLOAD. I can hit the hotwire hotkey and Neo loads/runs flawlessly. I may be crazy, (I don't argue that) but could someone recount for me how to set up a low rez desktop. I can't imagine I'm doing it wrong, as it works fine in other rezes, but you never know. The fact that when I save the dsktp from orig. Atari dsktop, select it from boot manager in the low rez set up, and get the med. rez dsktop (with low rez config.) puzzles me. By low rez config I mean: the 5 partition I keep on med and hi rez desktop won't fit accross the bottom of the low rez screen, so it typically shows C,D,and G with E and F under G. I'm lost, Matt PS: also posting in HotWire area ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 70 Sun Aug 29, 1993 J.ZORZIN [Joe.Z.] at 08:51 EDT >Atari-ST RoundTable >Category 17, Topic 14 >Message 67 Sat Aug 28, 1993 >R.PLAGGENBUR [Ralph / WA] at 16:18 EDT > >So does anyone have any info yet on a way to keep your old desktop icons and >look and feel after I upgrade to 3.04? > >Ralph >---------- > Thats what I have been struggling with all week. Apparently ***BEFORE*** you upgrade to 3.04 you must create a new NIC file and save your entire default icon collection to the new NIC file. Luckily I had saved my old Neodesk and associated files. But I have been having a nightmare of a problem with my old INF files. The INF_CONV.NPG that came the 3.04 patch created was faulty. Dan at GRIBNIF emailed me the corrected program (at least I think it is the corrected one). Now INF_CONV.NPG updates my INF files. Upon quiting INF_CONV.NPG after converting the last INF file, 3.04 correctly loads the last converted INF file. But if I then quit Neodesk and then I reload Neodesk it refuses to use the converted INF files (of course I name them to NEODESKH.INF). I'm sure I'm doing something stupid but I just can't see it. Any suggestions? Last night I sent an EMAIL to Dan and when I hear from him I'll mention the fix (unless he cares to post his reply hear). I haven't yet tried converting the macro files. I hope I don't have the same problems there. And this is all so I can get GENEVA up and running which is what I'm all excited about. ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 71 Sun Aug 29, 1993 NTACTONE [Ron Hunter] (Forwarded) >> I will gladly note in detail how I have gone about saving the << >>orig. lowrez desktop if asked. It's such a simple operation I << >>can't imagine I'm blowing it. But then, why should I be getting << >>the med. rez screen at times when I'm booting to low??? << Matt, This is probably the wrong topic for this, but there is a LOT of confusion about how to use Neoload.PRG. You NEED it in the AUTO folder, and then if you want to load Neodesk from HotWire, you need to run it again to load NeoDesk after the boot. Yes, twice. Check the Gribnif topic for further help. ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 72 Sun Aug 29, 1993 DMJ [dmj] at 13:00 EDT Joe Z.: To convert your .INF files is a simple three-step process: 1. Load NeoDesk in the resolution you want the .INF file converted to (in your case, I think this is ST High). 2. Run INF_CONV.NPG and select your old .INF file. Click the CONVERT button. Exit INF_CONV.NPG back to NeoDesk. 3. SAVE your desktop. You'll have to reload NeoDesk in each of the resolutions you use and convert each rez's file separately. If you use several .INF files for the same resolution, you will have to convert, save your desktop, and rename the file, for each of the files you use. -dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 73 Sun Aug 29, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 17:29 EDT I have a request. I hope this isn't an imposition on anyone. I apparently have a munged-up NeoDesk 3.04 that thinks it's a 3.03 version. I need a good version of 3.04 for Geneva testing. Can someone who has a working version of 3.04 e-mail the neodesk.exe part of it? I realize any of you who don't know me may wonder if I am trying to get something for nothing here. I can assure you ... oh heck, you guys know you can trust me on this one. I realize it will cost GEnie time, but I'm hoping someone can afford it. I need a good, working version of 3.04 quickly for a reason that will become clear shortly. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 74 Sun Aug 29, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 22:18 EDT Thanks Ron, Yes, I know about Neo. in 2 places. I've been using it for quite some time now. That's the problem, It seems that the way I usually load things is no longer working! I posted in the HotWire topic as well. It is HotWire that seems not to auto run Neo.prg when I do get to the low rez screen. Oh, I posted to the author of the boot prg. also. I have misplaced the docs and it's possible that it is in _that_ config. that I am making my error. Thanks again, Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 75 Mon Aug 30, 1993 F.GORON [Frank] at 00:35 EDT Joe Z. You converted you INF's for 3.04? That should be unnecessary. The INF's MAC's & NOT's will work from 3.03 without conversion. I recall that when I upgraded from 3.02 to 3.03 conversion was necessary & there was some sort of problem with the INF_CONV.NPG which Dan fixed up with a new NPG. But in the docs it was indicated that you did have to convert them. But there was no mention of this in the 3.03 to 3.04 docs, and I simply copied my INF's etc. to my new NEODESK folder & all worked fine. Is it possible that you're referring to 3.02 to 3.03 upgrade? Frank G. One thought, is it possible you have your default filenames changed to something else in the NEO_INF.DAT? If they're different from the standard NEODESKH.INF NEODESKL.INF etc, that might be causing your problem. ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 77 Mon Aug 30, 1993 C.BINCKLEY [-- Chuck --] at 04:45 EDT Ralph and Joe Z., I also upgraded from 3.03 to 3.04 without any need to convert anything with INF_CONV.PRG. My .INFs, .NOTs, and .MACs all work fine. Al, Whatsamatter? Won't any of those evil geniuses at Gribnif give you a good copy?(8^})... If you're still in need of it, let me know; I'd be glad to UL it for you as F-Mail (if Dan has no prblems with that). -- Chuck -- ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 78 Mon Aug 30, 1993 J.ZORZIN [Joe.Z.] at 06:44 EDT DMJ: Yikes- It never dawned on me to have to save each converted INF file to desktop- especially since the conversion program will do several conversions in succession- that's rather counter intuitive, c'est ne pas? Once the file is converted- shouldn't that be the equivalent of what you get when you save the desktop? Well I'll give it a whirl. Thanks again to you and others in this topic. How do you folks get so smart to figure these things out? Oh well, I'm 1 step closer to GENEVA. I hope shes worth it. ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 79 Mon Aug 30, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 06:52 EDT All, My Neodesk file arrived! Thanks vermillion! Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 80 Tue Aug 31, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 10:47 EDT Joe, I've already replied to your private email message about INF_CONV. Ralph, Page 95 of the NeoDesk manual describes the "Create NIC file" option. You need to use this to create a file under NeoDesk 3.03, then select all of your current NeoDesk icons and drag them to a window opened to the new NIC file. Once you close the NIC file window, you will be asked to save the file. This file can then be loaded into 3.04 using its icon editor. If you previously had NeoDesk 3.02, then to get the setups (INF files) converted over, you need to use INF_CONV.NPG to load the settings from your old (3.02) INF files. Then, quit the INF_CONV and use Save Configuration in NeoDesk to save the settings in the new 3.03/3.04 format. Thomas, I forgot one thing in my last post: you also need to make sure that NeoDesk's path is included in the PATH= variable in GEM.CNF, like: setenv PATH=.,c:\neodesk3,c:\bin Lou, I suggest that you make sure that you have NEOLOAD.PRG in the AUTO folder. This will make sure that when XCONTROL loads WCOLORS.CPX, it loads it before NeoDesk runs. What may be happening now is that WCOLORS gets loaded after NeoDesk runs, at which point NeoDesk has already asked for the current window colors (which are white.) Your two suggestions are already in the works. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 81 Tue Aug 31, 1993 R.PLAGGENBUR [Ralph / WA] at 10:57 EDT Al or others, I got the 3.04 upgrade in a specially marked box of Geneva flakes. I want to do the upgrade to 3.04 but as soon as I did it, I lost all my icons and the desktop looked different. So I quickly deleted everything new and jumped back into the familiar word of 3.02. Yes I did review the docs that came with both 3.03 & 3.04 (pretty much the same) and I did see the NOTE: under step one regarding saving the NIC files. but it didn't say how!...I went back to one of the 3 manuals I have for various versions of Neodesk, but didn't see it there either. So how do you do it, and what do you do after that? Do I need to upgrade my Macro files to 3.03 and then to 3.04 or can I do the leap to 3.04. and throw in anything else you think might help here!!! Thanks Ralph ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 82 Tue Aug 31, 1993 R.PLAGGENBUR [Ralph / WA] at 11:32 EDT Dan, As I was sending my last letter, Aladdin showed me the 3 messages before mine, OH-- OK I don't have a page 95 in any of my manuals, but I found "Create NIC file on page 32 of the 3.0 supplement. I never had a reason to use or try that function, and didn't really know it existed, but I did it work, and now I will proceed later today with the upgrade again...I mentioned a week ago that (MSG 59 I think?) after using the MAC convert program, Neodesk still said wrong MAC files will use defaults. Also After I load 3.04 I sure I will see the same type of message for the desktop, If I ...no instead of me guessing, could you just tell me what to do with my newly created NIC file. Thanks Ralph ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 83 Wed Sep 01, 1993 J.TOWLER1 [John] at 03:11 EDT Dan: I happened to look at my NEODESK.INF file and saw something I don't understand: ;Applications: type,flags,name,path,extensions(2) 152 17 USEONE.PRG D:\DATABASE\ .ONE . 152 17 ARCSHELL.PRG D:\UTILITY\ARC\ .ARC .LZH 152 1 DEGELITE.PRG D:\GRAPHICS\DEGAS\ .PI? .PC? 155 1 GIFFER.TTP D:\GRAPHICS\ .GIF . 152 17 WWRITER.PRG D:\WORDS\WWRITER\ .DOC . 152 17 STZIP.PRG D:\UTILITY\ARC\ .ZIP . 152 17 WFII.PRG D:\WORDS\WRDFLAIR\ .WF . 152 1 SPECTRE.PRG D:\SPECTRE\ . . 0 31 ^WRITER.PRG ^:\WORDS\WWRITER\ .DOC . 0 0 ^ ^ ^ ^ 0 0 ^ ^ ^ ^ 0 0 ^ ^ ^ ^ 0 0 ^ ^ ^ ^ 0 0 ^ ^ ^ ^ What is the line 0 31 ^WRITER.PRG ^:\WORDS\WWRITER\ .DOC . all about? I'm sure I have the format for the .INF files somewhere, but can't seem to find it. - John ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 84 Wed Sep 01, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:45 EDT Ralph, I'm pretty sure that Secrets of NeoDesk will help you out; it's in the library here as NEOSECRT.LZH or .ZIP or something of that sort. I'm not sure where to start to help in rergard to the .NIC files. Dan left a good explanation of the basic process. You need to save the icons in a .NIC file, then later, after running the newest versuion, you enter the icon editor, delete all the icons (it won't let you delete the first group, no matter what), and then open up your saved icon file and drag all of them over to the window that you have open. I think the problem is that it is just plain too easy, and we all expect some sort of hassle; in reality, it's just a drag and drop operation. You really do need 3.04. It's worth the trouble to upgrade. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 85 Wed Sep 01, 1993 F.GORON [Frank] at 20:08 EDT Two cents time: My guess, Ralph, is that the very first step is being overlooked. Check out Page 96 in the Neodesk 3 manual. The second sentence on the page is critical. If you don't have the Create .NIC File option available, this is why. If you're beyond this step, then I don't have a suggestion, sorry. Frank ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 86 Wed Sep 01, 1993 F.GORON [Frank] at 20:16 EDT About the Window colors CPX - I get the colors set by the CPX in all my window while in Neodesk (and programs run within it) EXCEPT the regular directory windows. I think I'm getting the top bar & some others ok, but if I recall correctly, the scroll bars & some gadgets SEEM to be getting set by Geneva. Does that make sense? Perhaps that's what Lou is experiencing? Frank ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 87 Wed Sep 01, 1993 F.GORON [Frank] at 22:04 EDT To be more specific about the Window colors CPX- A topped window will be correct, but in an untopped window the scrollbars and window gadgets are what are not correct. However these elements can't be defined in the CPX (for an untopped window) and that may be where the problem lies? Frank ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 88 Thu Sep 02, 1993 R.PLAGGENBUR [Ralph / WA] at 00:55 EDT Al, Thanks for your help.. I think I've either got it, or I'm close.. (fingers crossed) Frank, As I stated, I don't have a page 96 in any of 'my' manuals but thanks, I found a simular page in my books. Ralph ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 89 Thu Sep 02, 1993 F.GORON [Frank] at 19:04 EDT Ralph, Sorry, I missed that. In my manual the Create NIC thing is illustrated on page 95 but the description actually started on page 96. Glad you found the proper spot in your manual. Have you been able to get it working? Frank ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 90 Thu Sep 02, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou @Machine] at 23:47 EDT Dan, Thanks for the tip. I will have to check out what I have configured with XBOOT. But I think you might have hit it on the nail. When I do not autoboot with NeoDesk and I just enter it from Atari's NewDesk, I do not always get the window colors. Yet when I bootup with NeoDesk, I always get it. So I believe you have found the problem, I will have to change my XBoot configuration and it should solve that little problem. Thanks. --Lou T.-- Written: Thursday, September 02, 1993 10:21 p.m. EDT ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 91 Fri Sep 03, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:24 EDT John, Download "Secrets of NeoDesk" (NEOSECRT.LZH or something like that) from the library here for help with that .inf file and a lot of other things having to do with NeoDesk. It's a fairly decent little exposition on NeoDesk, written by somebody-or-other, I forget who. Your .inf file contains the links that NeoDesk uses for associating data with programs, and for setting up the desktop icons and such. "WWRITER" is of course WordWriter ST, and the ".DOC " line is the NeoDesk reference to the data files -- the text files -- that WordWriter is associated with. But grab a copy of "Secrets." You'll be glad you did. The author stops by here now and then. Al :) ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 92 Fri Sep 03, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 18:09 EDT All, I have discovered that a problem that I was having with CodeHead Software's "Calligrapher" word processing program bombing out whenever I told it to print is directly attributable to having the NeoDesk Control Panel desk accessory (v3.04) loaded into memory. Calligrapher users should not use the Neo Control Panel. ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 93 Fri Sep 03, 1993 K.SPRINGER1 [FROZEN NORTH] at 23:33 EDT All, So I'm not the only one to have problems with the NeoDesk Control Panel accessory. I stopped using it a long time ago. Ken S. ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 94 Sat Sep 04, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 09:46 EDT Mike, I'll try the Neo control panel with Cal here and see what happens. I usually don't have the Neo CP installed, since I use different utilities (mostly CPXes, which I am very fond of) for the settings in the Neo CP. I'd check to see if you have the fast-load bit set for the control panel, however. Al (Later ...) I loaded the CP into NeoDesk (under Geneva, this can be done on the fly), and printed out a Cal document just fine. I was using CP 3.03. BTW, it was dumb of me not to use it all the time; I like the way it integrates into NeoDesk so well. It's in my Geneva startup file from now on. ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 95 Sat Sep 04, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 13:59 EDT Ken, After the report of problems with it, I ran the Neo CP and did all sorts of stuff. No problems. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 96 Sat Sep 04, 1993 K.SPRINGER1 [FROZEN NORTH] at 21:33 EDT Al, It's been a long time since I used the Neo CP, so maybe some problems have been cured. With the TT, I'm using XCONTROL. Hmmm, do you know the magic search word for version 1.3? I tried CPX (seemed logical ) but only came up with 1.0 which is what I have. Thanks, Ken S. PS: My lib file was missing some files, so I downloaded the whole shebang a little while ago, and maybe CPX will work now. ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 97 Sat Sep 04, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 22:17 EDT Ken, XCONTROL.ZIP, 29751. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 98 Sun Sep 05, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 09:42 EDT Al, >> I'd check to see if you have the fast-load bit set for >> the control panel, however. I checked - the fastload bit was not set. However, the "Run in TT RAM" and "Use TT RAM" flags were set so I turned them off. I don't think that should have made a difference on my Mega4 ST (w/TOS 2.06). >> I was using CP 3.03. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the Neo Control Panel desk accessory was one of the programs patched by the NeoDesk v3.04 patch disk. I'm using CP v3.04. I've had another user over in the Calligrapher topic say that he's using CP v3.03 with Calligrapher with no problems. -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- Ken S., >> With the TT, I'm using XCONTROL. Hmmm, do you know the >> search word for version 1.3? I tried CPX (seemed logical >> ) but only came up with 1.0 which is what I have. XCONTROL v1.31 is file #29751 in our RT library. CPX should have worked for you; maybe, the SYSOPs hadn't released it yet at the time you did your search. ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 99 Sun Sep 05, 1993 K.SPRINGER1 [FROZEN NORTH] at 12:51 EDT Al, Thanks. Just flagged it for download. BTW, how's pagination training these days, and do you have the enitre library contents memorized? Mike I was using Todd Johnson's Searcher prg. to search my lib file listing offline. I have to log on using long distance. I knew my file was missing a couple of files because they were released out of order, but during the search I discovered that the file was also munged somewhere in the middle. So, I just downloaded an entire new listing yesterday. That's the way she goes!!! Ken S. ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 100 Sun Sep 05, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 18:35 EDT Al, In response to a comment that John Eidsvoog made over in the Calligrapher topic about whether or not I had tried using a clean system, with only NEOCNTRL.ACC in the root directory and no AUTO Folder programs, for a test, I felt that I had been remiss in my analysis so I did a little more digging. First, I booted off a floppy with only JARXXX.PRG in the AUTO Folder and NEOCNTRL.ACC in the root directory (NEOCNTRL will not load without JARXXX) and afterwards, I ran ICDBOOT.PRG from the Desktop so that I could get to and run Calligrapher. The result was no problem - Calligrapher printed fine. Next, I rebooted and this time, my floppy had JARXXX and NEOLOAD.PRG (NeoDesk v3.04) in the AUTO Folder and NEOCNTRL in the root directory and then TOS 2.06 autoran NEOLOAD.PRG (a 2nd time) from the NEWDESK.INF file. Then I ran ICDBOOT from the Desktop. The result this time was again no problem - Calligrapher printed fine. Clearly, NeoDesk itself was -not- causing the Calligrapher print problem. Next, I rebooted and this time ICDBOOTed my hard drive, ran only JARXXX, GENEVA.PRG (v0.95 Beta), and NEOLOAD in the AUTO Folder and NEOCNTRL and TASKMAN.ACC (the Geneva Task Manager) in the root directory with Geneva autorunning NEOLOAD a 2nd time. Then I ran Calligrapher and the result was a crash during printing. This suggested that either GENEVA.PRG or TASKMAN.ACC was the source of the conflict so, finally, I reran the previous test, but without loading TASKMAN.ACC at all (i.e., just GENEVA.PRG in addition to the other software loaded successfully in test #2). Again, I experienced a crash with Calligrapher printing which leads me to conclude that somehow the interaction between Geneva v0.95 Beta (in the form of GENEVA.PRG) and the NeoDesk Control Panel v3.04 desk accessory is problematic to the point where if used with Calligrapher 3, Calligrapher 3 will crash when the printing function is selected. I hope this serves to clear things up and better identify the source of the problem. From a user's standpoint, it's much easier to dispense with using the Neo Control Panel than it is to dispense with Geneva. ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 101 Fri Sep 03, 1993 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] (Forwarded) Mike, Thanks for the report about the Neodesk Control Panel. It's possible that the conflict is unique to your system or version numbers. Perhaps someone else can confirm whether they get bombing with the Neodesk CP and Calligrapher. Out of fairness to Gribnif, since no one else has reported this problem, I'd prefer to get confirmation before assuming that an inherent conflict exists. John ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 102 Fri Sep 03, 1993 M.MOTOGAWA [MEL] (Forwarded) Mike, I just tried printing in Text Only and Graphic Text mode with v3.03 of the Neo Control Panel loaded as a resident acc. in MDD and everything went cool. Maybe it's a tsr/acc. clash with something else, or perhaps this only happens with v3.04 of the CP? I'm using Callig 3 v3.03. - Mel ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 103 Sat Sep 04, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] (Forwarded) Mel, >> Maybe it's a tsr/acc. clash with something else, or >> perhaps this only happens with v3.04 of the CP? That could be it. I'm using v3.04 of the Neo Control Panel. ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 104 Sun Sep 05, 1993 T.CARMAN [Tom Carman] (Forwarded) Mel, I've just begun using Geneva and I too have had problems with the Neodesk Control panel. When it is loaded Calligrapher refuses to print. As soon as the print selection screen comes up the program bombs. This is with version 3.04 of NeoDesk, the only version that works with Geneva. Tom Carman ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 105 Sun Sep 05, 1993 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] (Forwarded) Tom & Mike, Am I correct in assuming that if you boot up with no AUTO programs and only the Neodesk Control Panel, v3.04, that Calligrapher will crash when you run it? John ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 106 Sun Sep 05, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] (Forwarded) Just to clarify, Under Cal 3.0, Geneva 1.00 (a later version than some of the others have, which may make a difference) and NeoDesk 3.04, Callig prints fine with the Neo CP loaded. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 107 Sun Sep 05, 1993 M.MOTOGAWA [MEL] (Forwarded) Tom, Well, I don't know what to say. I just tried again to reproduce the crash and couldn't. I loaded the Neodesk CP (v3.03) into Multidesk Deluxe, and also tried it outside Multidesk, but was able to call up the Print dialog with no problem. I tried toggling the screensaver, blitter and corner clock options in the CP, but still no crash. This was in monochrome on TOS 1.60 and a dirty system, plenty of tsr's and acc's. The only thing I can think of is that either it's a TOS specific or CP version specific bug. Does the crash happen while printing is going on or just by calling up the Print dialog? - Mel ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 108 Mon Sep 06, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 09:13 EDT The preceeding (forwarded) messages were posted here out of chronological order. Specifically, message #100 is intended to be in response to message #105. ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 109 Mon Sep 06, 1993 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 12:16 EDT Thanks Mike! I forgot to mention the sequence being fooled up. ~~~Brian... Written on Monday 06 September 1993 at 12:02 p.m. ADT ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 110 Tue Sep 07, 1993 T.CARMAN [Tom Carman] at 03:26 EDT John, Re your question in message 105, no Calligrapher does not crash as soon as you run it, nor does it crash if only Neodesk and the Neodesk Control panel are running. The problem does not occur until you introduce Geneva. When Geneva is running with Neodesk and the Neodesk Control panel Calligrapher will run fine, but when 'print' is selected from the drop-down menu it crashes with two bombs. It makes no difference whether TASKMAN.ACC is running or not. The same result occurs. Now, if the Neodesk Control panel is shut off and everything else remains the same, bingo Calligrapher will print again. Substituting XCONTROL.ACC ver. 1.3 seems to work fine. Calligrapher continues to print with no problems. The difficulty seems to lie in the combination of Geneva and the Neodesk Control panel with the print function in Calligrapher. I thought perhaps a copy of the system's registers at the time of the crash might help you figure out what is going on, so I copied them down and am including them here. The initial statement across the top of the screen at the time of the crash is: A Bus error has occurred (2 bombs). Press "R" for a list of the system's Registers, or any key to exit. Upon pressing "R" I get a repeat of the statement, "A Bus error has occurred (2 bombs)" and the following list of registers: d0: 00000001 a0: 0004CBA6 d1: 000F7222 a1: 00107A7C d2: 00000002 a2: 000DEFC8 d3: 00000000 a3: 00107AC4 d4: 00000000 a4: 00000000 d5: 00000013 a5: 001429E8 d6: 00000280 a6: 000F0AB0 d7: 00100000 a7: 00003DDA ssp: 00003DDA usp: 000FA21C instr.: 4E75 sr: 0300 = {t:0 s:0 interrupt:011 x:0 n:0 z:0 v:0 c:0} pc: 0004C3F6 Hope this helps you figure out what is going on. Otherwise things are working not too bad. One other little glitch I have noticed is that when running Calligrapher and Bible Concordance program together and trying to paste from Bible Concordance to Calligrapher, Calligrapher is not aware of the scrap file ready to paste. Two things will remedy this. The first I discovered was that if I then quit Calligrapher and restarted it, it was then aware of the clip and would paste it. The other solution I later discovered was that if I performed a cut and paste once in the Calligrapher document (not between programs), then tried to cut and paste between programs everything worked fine. I hope I have explained this clearly. It seems that Calligrapher is not getting the initial message that there is something to paste if that cut and paste is between programs. I tried this with another program in combination with Calligrapher just to be sure it was not specific to the combination of these two programs and I ended up with the same result. I don't know whether the problem is with Calligrapher or Geneva, but there it is. Its a minor annoyance, but not too serious. Geneva is a great piece of work. Hope the honing goes well. Tom Carman ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 111 Tue Sep 07, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 06:59 EDT Tom Carman, >> One other little glitch I have noticed is that when >> running Calligrapher and Bible Concordance program >> together and trying to paste from Bible Concordance to >> Calligrapher, Calligrapher is not aware of the scrap file >> ready to paste. Calligrapher was designed using Atari's new standard for Clipboard which uses a CLIPBRD folder to store its data whereas most other ST applications use a SCRAP.TXT file in the root directory of one of your disks. A possible workaround for you in this circumstance would be 1) use the Clipboard Manager CPX that came with XCONTROL v1.31 to set the Clipboard location to where your other application (in this case, Bible Concordance) is (the CPX requires that you Save this location, even if RAM Resident), 2) run Bible Concordance and perform your cut or copy function, 3) exit that application and copy the resulting SCRAP.TXT file to your \CLIPBRD folder used by Calligrapher, normally placed on the C:\ hard drive by the INSTALL program, 4) use the Clipboard Manager CPX to reset the Clipboard location to where Calligrapher's \CLIPBRD folder is (again this requires a Save), and 5) run Calligrapher, open the document you wish to paste to and perform the Paste operation. Of course, if your other application can be and is loaded as a desk accessory, all of this can be accomplished quickly and easily while running Calligrapher provided that you have a file manager desk accessory such as MaxiFile or Universal Item Selector III (v3.32) - otherwise, you'll need to use Geneva to momentarily transfer to NeoDesk to do the file copy operation. It's not an elegant solution, but it's workable. I hope this helps. ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 112 Wed Sep 08, 1993 T.CARMAN [Tom Carman] at 01:44 EDT Mike, Thanks for the concern and the attempt at a solution, but it seems you really didn't understand what I was trying to say and if you didn't others may have misunderstood as well, so let me try to clarify. I am using the Clipboard CPX supplied with the version 1.31 of the XCONTROL.ACC. I have set the path to a CLIPBRD folder in the root directory of C drive on my hard drive. Bible Concordance program does create a scrap.txt file and save it to that folder when a copy is performed (you can't cut the text out of the Bible or you would corrupt the text for future use). Calligrapher also uses the scrap.txt file in the CLIPBRD folder. I am running both programs under Geneva which allows me to multitask. The problem lies in the fact that if I am starting with a fresh document in Calligrapher and try to perform a copy and paste from another program, such as Bible Concordance, Calligrapher does not recognize that there is anything in the Clipboard. It appears that it needs to be awakened to this fact internally, for once I perform a cut and paste internally, within a Calligrapher document, it will from then on recognize a copy and paste request between programs. What I am trying to point out is that Geneva does not seem to be passing the initial message to Calligrapher that wakes it up to the fact that something is in the Clipboard. Calligrapher appears to insist on doing that itself, although, there is an exception. If I start up both programs and try to copy from Bible Concordance to Calligrapher it will not recognize that there is anything in the clipboard, but if I then quit Calligrapher alone and restart it, presto, it is aware of the scrap file in the clipboard. So the problem is that Calligrapher seems to need a push-start, as it were, to recognize the clipboard. I hope that clarifies things. I don't expect this is the kind of problem that can be solved by a slight change in configuration. It appears to need correction at a programming level, but then what do I know I'm not a programmer. Dan, I hope you and the Codeheads can iron this one out. Meanwhile I'll keep using my workaround. It is really isn't too difficult, just a minor annoyance and something it might take others a while to discover. Tom Carman ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 113 Thu Sep 09, 1993 R.LIBBY3 [Ralph] at 22:53 EDT I am sure that most people have the answer to this problem, but I dont, and need some help. I am using Neodesk 3.03, TOS 1, and have a problem tryin to get some pictures for the desk top. I have gotten some nice pics, ren ed them NEOPIC_L.PI1 etc, and they appear on the desk top, but the colors are all messed up. Attempts to correct them with the desk top color pal let do not seem to do the job, nor does messing around with the colors in the EDIT ICON box. Do I have to revise the pictures in a trial-and-error method, or is there something I have missed? ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 114 Fri Sep 10, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 01:14 EDT Ralph, [R.LIBBY3] There may be an easier way, but what I've always done is to load the picture into an art program and check the individual color settings for the picture in there. Any prg that will give you an RGB scale for the palatte colors. Then, you can set the colors in the NeoDesk Control Panel, and save the NeoD config. (Can't remember, you may have to hit reset colors while in the Neo Cntrl Panel first) I usually write down what my defaults were before making any changes... just to be safe! Someone else might have a better answer, but I hope this helps. Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 115 Fri Sep 10, 1993 T.HEBEL [Spud Boy] at 19:54 EDT Untrue. You can select and edit the window gadget colors of the untopped windows with the window colors CPX. ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 116 Fri Sep 10, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 22:00 EDT Ken, I got promoted (system editor) and am now training the newsroom on 100 new PCs, as well as doing the software for in-house stuff. Busy, busy. Mike, At any rate, version 1.00 of Geneva does not exhibit that problem with the CP, so you should be OK when you upgrade to the release version. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 117 Sat Sep 11, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 07:40 EDT Al, >> At any rate, version 1.00 of Geneva does not exhibit >> that problem with the CP, so you should be OK when you >> upgrade to the release version. That's good to know. I'm sure that v1.00 fixes a lot of little things that will improve my enjoyment of Geneva by keeping me from encountering little beasties that would spoil that enjoyment by turning me from a user into a debugger. Incidentally, I did encounter the same "Calligrapher bombs when you select Print" problem the other day without the Neo Control Panel in RAM the other day so I know its still lurking on my system and that only a cured version of Geneva (the true culprit) will make it go away. I'm looking forward to the new version of Geneva and a new NeoDesk 4 to lay on top of it. Any idea why the windows look (i.e., are shaded) different when you use Geneva alone vs. using NeoDesk on top of Geneva? ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 118 Sat Sep 11, 1993 DMJ [dmj] at 10:43 EDT Ralph: The best way to get your picture's colors to come up is like this: 1. Copy the picture into your NEODESK folder and rename it NEOPIC_x.PIx. 2. Rename your NEODESKx.INF to something else. 3. Load NeoDesk. You'll see a message telling you no .INF was found, and NeoDesk is using defaults. One of those defaults is to get the colors from the picture. 4. Run INF_CONV and convert your old .INF file to your current resolution, taking everything except the colors. 5. Save your desktop. This was the method given to me by Dan Wilga when I asked him this very problem. It makes it kind of inconvenient to change backdrop pictures, but... oh well. -dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 119 Sat Sep 11, 1993 R.LIBBY3 [Ralph] at 10:53 EDT Thanks, folks! I'll give it a shot. Funny that this information couldnt be in the instruction manual! ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 120 Sat Sep 11, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 12:18 EDT Mike, No idea about the windows looking different. I hadn't seen that here, on a TT and an ST, even with the version you have. BTW, I run G a lot without a desktop on the ST. I like the extra memory and slightly added speed. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 121 Tue Sep 14, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 12:32 EDT Everyone, I plan to look into the reports of problems people have been having with printing in Calligrapher while version 3.04 of the control panel is running. Since I do not have Calligrapher, I am going to try it this weekend at the Glendale show. Tom, It is not Geneva's responsibility to inform Calligrapher that something is waiting in the clipboard, it is Calligrapher's responsibility to check periodically. I have seen this happen with other programs (they do not look to see if there is a scrap file except when first run.) Please note that I am not saying that this is definitely the case with Calligrapher; this is just what it appears to be. Again, I plan to discuss this this coming weekend with John Eidsvoog. Frank, The newer version of the WINDOWS.CPX can control the colors of the background windows. Try the archive of XCONTROL 1.31 that was uploaded to GEnie recently. John Towler, That line denotes an entry that has been deleted. It is ignored by NeoDesk. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 122 Wed Sep 15, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 20:13 EDT Dan, >> NeoDesk 4 will not be ready until at least Nov. at this >> point. We will be shipping the 3.04 patch with Geneva. Any chance that you will be providing a corrected version of the ST medium resolution NEODESKM.RSC file in advance of NeoDesk 4 shipping so that us users won't have to frequently press Control-Alt-Undo in order to clean up the screen, a problem with the present v3.04? -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- >> I plan to look into the reports of problems people have >> been having with printing in Calligrapher while version >> 3.04 of the control panel is running. Since I do not have >> Calligrapher, I am going to try it this weekend at the >> Glendale show. Just keep in mind two things as you explore this problem. First, the culprit in the Calligrapher printing problem is not NEOCNTRL, but GENEVA. In my tests (based on a clean system and working my way up), everything worked fine until GENEVA was loaded, including the Calligrapher/NEOCNTRL combo. It just so happens that removing NEOCNTRL seems to allow GENEVA and Calligrapher to work together better for some strange reason. But sometimes Caliigrapher will bomb with GENEVA present even if NEOCNTRL is not loaded. This problem may have something to do with memory and multitasking since a Calligrapher user, when he runs the CALSETUP program, needs to specify 1) whether or not he's multitasking (I said "no" since I didn't have GENEVA yet and now wished I'd said "yes" - but I really don't want to reinstall the entire Calligrapher program again, which is what I'd need to do to correct this selection, as I don't have the disk space), 2) what % of free memory to allocate to Calligrapher (I chose 80%), 3) minimum memory to allocate to Calligrapher (I chose 512K), and 4) maximum memory to allocate to Calligrapher (I chose 2048K). Second, the problem is not with the actual printing itself, but rather the selection of the Print command which, if GENEVA doesn't cause bombs at that point, displays a menu of user options (prior to printing). An interesting side issue here is when Calligrapher follows up by displaying "Do you want indexing - Yes/No?" buttons, there seems to be no GENEVA flags option that will allow the user to select one of those two buttons. As far as GENEVA works, you can't pick either button, you just have to wait 30 seconds or so until Calligrapher assumes you said "no" and continues processing your print request. Of course, all of this is with GENEVA Beta v0.95 and hopefully, the problems have vanished in later versions. ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 123 Thu Sep 16, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:36 EDT Mike, That Yes/No dialog for the indexer behaves that way here, too, and as I recall, that has nothing to do with Geneva. It's a litle bug in Cal. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 124 Thu Sep 16, 1993 P.LEFEBVRE [T.K.] at 20:18 EDT Mike, If you don't mind messing with the NEODESKM.RSC file you can patch it to fix the icons redraws. Make a backup first, though! While in medium res, load it into a resource contruction set (I used ORCS) and open the second tree (the one with all the desktop/window icons). Individually click once on each icon so that the rubber-band box expands to cover the entire icon. Save the resource. That's what I did to fix mine and it works great now. -- Paul ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 125 Fri Sep 17, 1993 L.DOWDLE1 [Scott Dowdle] at 20:59 EDT P.LEFEBVRE [T.K.], > the resource. That's what I did to fix mine and it works great now. Thanks for the information. I did that and now my icons work great. I wish I new the exact size the icons should be so I could make the height and wide perfect. Basically what I did was select the second tree and double click on each icon... which brought up a sort of master edit dialog. From that dialog (oh, I'm talking about ORCS here too!) I simply chose OK and it reset the icon size a lot bigger. The new size seems to be a tiny big bigger than it should be but at least it did take care of the screen garbage from NeoDesk. Icon placement is still sort of a challange but nothing like it used to be. [grin] TYL, Scott ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 126 Sat Sep 18, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 06:44 EDT P.LEFEBVRE, Perhaps Gribnif will allow you to upload your NEODESKM.RSC file to the library for the rest of us to enjoy since it would be useless to anyone who didn't have the rest of the NeoDesk files. -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- Gribnif, How about it? Would you permit a modified NEODESKM.RSC file to be posted online if you''re not going to offer one yourselves before November? ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 127 Tue Sep 21, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 15:01 EDT Paul & Lee, IMPORTANT: If you make this change, DO NOT try to use NeoDesk's icon editor to edit NeoDesk's icons. Unpredicatble things may happen because the icon editor expects the RSC file to be in a specific order, which is probably different from what is written by ORCS. The only way you can edit the icons is to change the ones that came as part of 3.04, and then fix the RSC file afterward. Mike, I need to make a change to all of the RSC files so that NeoDesk's windows will come up in 3D when using Geneva 1.00, so you will actually be getting those in the mail when 1.01 begins shipping later this week. (Yes, it's going to be 1.01, because I want to do some more bug fixes. And, yes, there will be a patch for anyone who has already bought 1.00.) Thanks for reminding me about the icon height problem, though. I will make sure that gets fixed at the same time. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 128 Wed Sep 22, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 07:14 EDT Dan, >> I need to make a change to all of the RSC files so that >> NeoDesk's windows will come up in 3D when using Geneva >> 1.00, so you will actually be getting those in the mail >> when 1.01 begins shipping later this week. (Yes, it's >> going to be 1.01, because I want to do some more bug >> fixes. And, yes, there will be a patch for anyone who has >> already bought 1.00.) >> >> Thanks for reminding me about the icon height problem, >> though. I will make sure that gets fixed at the same >> time. Thanks for addressing my concern. I wouldn't make an issue of it if NeoDesk 4's release were immenent. I'm looking forward to receiving the Geneva update! ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 129 Wed Sep 22, 1993 C.KROWCHUK1 [CHRIS] at 23:33 EDT I have read a couple of times about a file up here on Genie called NEOSECRETS.LZH or something like that. It has been recommended several times as interesting and informative information that will enlighten the inquisitive neodesk user to all sorts of hidden secrets and overall enhance their useage of this software. It is eluding me, secret! Would anyone care to share the secrets of neodesk, preferably by posting it here or directing me to where it is hiding? Thanx in advance. ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 130 Thu Sep 23, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 06:26 EDT Chris, NEOSECRT.LZH is Library file #26714. It's good reading; well worth the download time. ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 131 Thu Sep 23, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:09 EDT Chis, The guy who wrote that secrets text probably named it NEOSECRT.LZH; "NEOSECRETS.LZH" is an illegal filename because it has more than eight characters in the main part of the name. I suspect you are not using Aladdin, since Aladdin has an excellent file- search function built in, which you can use off-line. So my first recommendation is to download Aladdin from the Aladdin RT and use it. The file number is 26714, by the way. All files here can be searched for on-line, too, if you use keyword or uploader search methods. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 132 Thu Sep 23, 1993 K.SPRINGER1 [FROZEN NORTH] at 23:45 EDT Al, Gosh, you could at least have taken some credit for your own work! Chris, And it is good reading! Ken S. ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 133 Fri Sep 24, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:23 EDT Ken S., Aw, it's too much fun this way... Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 134 Fri Sep 24, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 22:37 EDT Al, Re: the nameless writer... Who was that masked man, anyway??? Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 135 Sun Sep 26, 1993 C.KROWCHUK1 [CHRIS] at 00:03 EDT Blush! Thanks all! Chris ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 136 Wed Sep 29, 1993 M.GARRISON1 [Lazarus] at 19:43 EDT Dan, I have a suggestion for NeoDesk 4. When I was at the MIST show earlier this year I had a question about using GIF's as background pictures on the Falcon and the response was that the loading time would be excessive and that you were looking into other formats. I recently uploaded a desktop picture program for the Falcon that uses GIF's and it also converts to another format (GFB) which loads very quickly with no loss of picture quality. If you haven't come up with your own method, could you consider having NeoDesk 4 support DESKPIC5? The file number is 30113. Thanks ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 137 Sun Oct 03, 1993 G.NELSON16 [GFN] at 12:04 EDT Dan (or anyone), Though I have been an avid user of Neo Desk 3.02 for quite some time it is only today I decided to mess around with using Prgs. as Neodesk Accessories. The reason I looked into the Neodesk Acc was because EdHak 3.02 is able to run as a ND acc. Of course this brings up a good question , having installed edhak as an acc I recalled that Stalker 3 could also be used as a ND acc. Ok this is the question. My acc consist of EDHKAK302,MULTIDesk, and NeoControl panel. When I installed Stalker as a ND acc in the set preferances panel i moved a copy of STLKR to the root of my boot drive It is also in my multidesk.MDX folder. I use a boot manager and turned off the root directory stalker acc and loaded in the three basic acc's listed above. Ok here is the question. Is NeoDesk calling Stalker from the root of drive c even though it is renamed .acx or is it calling Stalker from the Multidesk.MDX folder? (where it is still active as .acc) (MDX's are non resident accessories that are called by Multidesk) Also how much is Geneva and the upgrade to 3.03 from 3.02? Is Geneva out of Beta? Am I to late to get in on the beta version? (haven't really been out of the loop but have been doing some hard thinking as to how much more I would spend on my Atari system so I haven't acted on any purchases-even though I saw Geneva at MIST) Gerald ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 138 Sun Oct 03, 1993 MIKE-ALLEN [NM~SysOp] at 16:08 EDT Gerald, The patch from NeoDesk 3.02 to 3.03 is here on GEnie. NEO302A.LZH is file # 27669. Geneva with the 3.02/3.03 to 3.04 patch is, I believe $70. I'm sure Dan will give you a full answer when he returns from his well-deserved vacation. It was nice meeting Dan and Rick at Glendale. Blast, these young, smart people make me feel old! Mike Allen ST HelpDesk~Sysop Written: 11:26 AM Mountain Time Sunday, October 3, 1993 ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 139 Sun Oct 03, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 20:54 EDT Gerry, NeoDesk accessories must be written to communicate with NeoDesk. A program that is installed as a NeoDesk accessory does not become one just because you've installed it that way; it must be able to communicate with NeoDesk (and vice versa). STalker, STeno, CardFile, the Neo CP, and so on are NeoDesk DAs, as are a few other non-Gribnif DAs. The primary advantage of a NeoDesk DA over a normal desk accessory is its accessibility from within NeoDesk, either by a predefined hotkey or by a desktop icon. The first Neo DA you place in the list will be accessed by Control-1, the second by Control-2, and so on. If you also place a Neo DA as an icon on the desktop, you can open it by double-clicking on the icon, and, most importantly, you can drag a file to the icon of the DA and the desk accessory will open with that file loaded. (STeno will open with the text file loaded, STalker wil open with the BackTalk script loaded, and so on.) This is exceptionally handy, and is one of the many reasons I consider NeoDesk the only satisfactory choice of desktops for the Atari. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 140 Mon Oct 11, 1993 GRIBNIF-1 at 20:42 EDT Gerald, When you have a NeoDesk DA icon on the desktop and "open" it or drag an icon to it, the program must already be in memory, as a desk accessory. In this case, you have MultiDesk which can load a DA "on the fly". This complicates things because a NeoDesk DA needs to remain active in memory in order for things to work 100%. You can either have STalker as a resident DA in MultiDesk, or you can use it outside of MultiDesk. However, I do not recommend using it as an MDX because MultiDesk removes it from memory when it closes. If you are not using STalker as a NeoDesk DA, then using it as an MDX should work just fine. The final version of Geneva is now shipping. The cost is $69.95 + $4 S&H. You can call us at (413) 247-5620 to place an order. Lazarus, Most likely, NeoDesk 4 will support loading pictures in the XIMG format. This is not yet cast in stone, though. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 141 Tue Oct 12, 1993 B.AEIN [B Man] at 18:57 EDT Dan, When I try to delete a folder on my Falcon, I get a Tos error "path not found". Same thing for moves. Will there be a fix? I am using screen Blaster and would like to see Neo auto sense which mode you are in ( 800*600, 1120*760, 480*480, ect...) and load an aproperate resource file for that resolution. I also noticed that you must go back to the desktop to change res and colors, could you add support for this in Neo. Can you also build in a mouse wrap feature as DCmouse wrap does not work correctly in any res over 640*400? Thanks Bman ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 142 Tue Oct 12, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 22:49 EDT Warp9's mouse wrap features work fine with FalconScreen in 832x624x16 on my Falcon equipped with NeoDesk 3.04 and Geneva. I have run into a few minor glitches with Geneva 1.01 that didn't exist with 0.95 tho'. I'll detail them later. --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 143 Wed Oct 13, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 01:53 EDT I should like to see the ability to set alarms in a future version of NeoDesk. This is a good feature of Hotwire. Hotwire will also ring alarms set in Bill Aycock's excellent Cal.6.3 accessory. This is one of the main reasons I like to be able to use Hotwire as well as Neodesk. Otherwise they are about equally useful and it is a matter of personal preference. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 144 Wed Oct 13, 1993 B.AEIN [B Man] at 02:34 EDT Kevin, Sorry but I won't be using W9 with my ScreenBlaster as there are compatiblity probs as well as the fact that W9 does not speed up true color. I would like to see a easy way to rename files with say a double right click or something. Bman ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 145 Wed Oct 13, 1993 T.HEBEL [Spud Boy] at 02:49 EDT I am having problems with NEOdesk 3.04 on my TT. If I change the desktop pattern and colors in TTMED, it affects the settings in ST high? Is this because there is only one resource file for both rez's? Is there a way to have the two rez's separated? ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 146 Wed Oct 13, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 07:43 EDT It sounds like the W9 problems with ScreenBlaster may actually be problems with the ScreenBlaster software. W9 works fine with my 'extended size' screens produced via the FalconScreen program. --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 147 Thu Oct 14, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 12:24 EDT BMan, The problem with deleting folders is a bug in TOS 4.00 through 4.04. Atari has been informed of the problem. At the same time, I plan to do a workaround for this in NeoDesk 4. Actually, NeoDesk 4 will go to just one resource file. You will still be able to have separate icons for medium/high rez color screens, though. Affecting the way the mouse works is really beyond the scope of what NeoDesk does. You can more easily rename files by holding the Control key while clicking with the left button. That's something that's always been there. Spud Boy, Right now the high rez resource file is also used for TT medium rez. NeoDesk 4 will address this, but for now the only thing you can really do is to have a program like XBoot change over to a different NEODESKH.RSC file depending on what rez you are booting into. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 148 Fri Oct 15, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 12:55 EDT Soud, If you have enough disk space, you can create a separate folder for ST High, with the proper INF files, RSC files and NEODESK.EXE in that folder used just for using NeoDesk in ST High-res on the TT. I've had to do that just to keep from going crazy; all my icons in TT Med are colored nicely, and that means they all show up black on black (or green on green, or red on red, and so on) when I use the same setup in ST High. I didn't try Dan's suggestion of using XBoot (I don't use XBoot, although it seems like an excellent product), since HD space is pretty cheap these days. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 149 Fri Oct 15, 1993 T.HEBEL [Spud Boy] at 22:25 EDT Dan, Thanks for the suggestion, but usually I don't get to Xboot during rez switches. I just pop back and forth between ST High and TTMED going between CyberSculpt and Phoenix/Chronos. Al, that is a good idea. Do you also have a fancy way to get it to run the "right" copy of NeoDesk when you swap rez's? ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 150 Sat Oct 16, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 13:11 EDT Spud, I use a boot manager (not XBoot, but one that is flexible nonetheless), and the res changes are handled automatically. The proper inf files are used by the boot manager, and the "right" copy of NeoDesk is used, also. I have a main NeoDesk folder and a NEOHIGH folder. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 151 Sat Oct 16, 1993 R.CARPENTE18 [Bob C.] at 14:51 EDT How do I edit my macros in Neodesk? I want to change the directory that a particular program is running from. So far, the only way I've found is to bring up DEFAULT.MAC in something like Edhak and change the directory by hand. I'd sure like to know how to do this from Neodesk. Thanks. Bob Carpenter ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 152 Sun Oct 17, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 01:35 EDT Bob, Dan Wilga's excellent MemFile will let you edit anything. Neo does not have a built-in macro editor. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 153 Wed Oct 20, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 00:43 EDT Hi all, I'm experiencing a difficulty switching between my ST Hi (ala SM 147) and ST Low (SM 1224). I use MouseBoot as a boot manager, if your familiar with it, and can't seem to get it to work. Usually, I copy the Desktop.INF file to the MouseBoot folder and rename it to reflect it's rez. (ie: LOWDESK.INF). Then, I can include it in the boot set. When I do this, I get the Med. Rez desktop, every time. I can no longer switch to Low rez from Med ala the 'change rez' option in NewDesk either. Works fine if I use the Video option from Geneva 1.01 though. I'd rather not have to go through med to get to low if I don't have to. (BTW- I had to rename Desktop.inf -> Newdesk.inf for G to work right) Oh, if I boot to the TOS desktop in Low rez, save the desktop and do the copy/name change, it works fine if I switch from Low to Hi and back. However, if I spend a long time in Hi, as I usually do, selecting the Low rez boot set when I switch monitors (xswitchit box) I once again only get the Med. screen. Any Ideas? Do you guys know about MouseBoot? Perhaps the author will let me send you the prg to check out if you like, and you've got the time. ---- OK, some more info... I created a Low rez boot set with the following AUTO PRG's and it worked fine: JAR10 POOLFIX SERFIX20 SILKMOUS WARP 9 SUPCLKRD BIGCOOKY NEOLOAD UIS III DMIRROR When I add GENEVA to the list, I get the dreaded Med rez screen again. Note: in the above set up, NeoD doesn't run, because it's not in the .inf file as AUTO run. Of course, it does come up when G is run. I figured the ACC's don't matter as I didn't change them when adding G. To fill out the picture though, the only ACC's loading are CALL_UIS.ACC and Warp9CP.ACC. All suggestions welcome, Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 154 Wed Oct 20, 1993 TQUINN [Terry~Sysop] at 09:52 EDT Matt - I don't know what version of MouseBoot you are using but that program has a topic of its own (Category 2 Topic 13). I would suggest you post your enquiry there. BTW - as a long term (registered) mouseboot user - have you tried clicking the "MouseBoot" title bar to engage the configuration dialog? Terry Quinn ST RT Sysop and BBS Janitor ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 155 Wed Oct 20, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 16:17 EDT Matt, Geneva stores its own idea of what rez to boot into inside the GENEVA.CNF file. It only looks at the newdesk/desktop.inf setting if GENEVA.CNF is not present. (Unfortunately, this means that NeoDesk's rez changing option will not work; this is to be fixed for Neo 4.) Assuming Mouseboot can be told to use files other than NEWDESK/DESKTOP.INF, you can tell it to load different GENEVA.CNF files that have been saved (using Save Settings in the Task Manager) under low and medium rez. It does not matter which of these you use when you have the mono monitor attached. Bob C., Macros cannot currently be edited in NeoDesk, but that is something I'm trying to find the time to write. While you can indeed "edit" them using an editor like MemFile, you should always make a backup copy of the original, since any changes you make may affect more than you bargained for. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 156 Wed Oct 20, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 20:19 EDT Terry [TQUINN] Actually, no. I haven't tried that yet. (BTW- I'm registered too!) I tried a while ago to get an answer from the MB area, but none was forthcoming. I'll try again! Thanks, Matt ---- Thanks Dan, Yes, MouseBoot will use any file I hand it. I'll try GENEVA.CNF. I wasn't sure where G stored the info. I tried looking at the .CNF files in an editor, but well, stupidity set in and I couldn't figure it out! Thanks again, Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 157 Wed Oct 20, 1993 TREVOR.W [Brad@Home] at 22:04 EDT -/- GRIBNIF -\- Is there anyway to turn off the error trapping in NeoDesk? I run a BBS that traps it's own errors and I can't use NeoDesk on this computer because errors in online games causes a lockup.. Maybe a NeoDesk 4 thing? ;) And how do I upgrade to NeoDesk 3.04 or NeoDesk 4? And a date? I can't wait to get Geneva for my new TT! With NeoDesk running as it's desktop! Thanks in advance. ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 158 Thu Oct 21, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:34 EDT Brad, Try setting "Report status #s" to 0 in the NeoDesk config. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 159 Fri Oct 22, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 16:59 EDT Trevor, The other thing you can do is use Install Application to turn the error numbers off for just that one program. NeoDesk 4 will not be out until at least December at this point. NeoDesk 3.04 is available only to people who get Geneva, since the changes in it are primarily for Geneva compatibility. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 160 Sat Oct 23, 1993 MIKE-ALLEN [NM~SysOp] at 15:21 EDT Dan, Just upgraded to 3.04 to run with Geneva - nice combo. Thought you'd like to know that the sound balance control in the NeoControl Panel still doesn't work right. I can go full left (nothing from the right speaker) but full right is the same as centered. Mike Allen ST HelpDesk~Sysop Written: 1:18 PM Mountain Time Saturday, October 23, 1993 ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 161 Sun Oct 24, 1993 W.ORTIZ [Will] at 19:43 EDT Gribnif, Hi! This is the first time I'm coming on to this topic, so bear with me if you've covered this territory before. I recently purchased your NeoDesk 3 (3.03) and I encountered a small problem. I have DATAlite 2 and I can't delete to the recoverable trashcan from my compressed 'D:' partition. I get the following message in a dialogue box: 'This program cannot handle sectors as large as the ones on this partition.' Any fix or workaround I should know about? Thanks.... Will W.ORTIZ ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 162 Sun Oct 24, 1993 DMJ [dmj] at 23:21 EDT Will: From the description in the NeoDesk manual as to how the Recoverable Trashcan works, it appears to be doing some low-level stuff. DATAlite is also doing some low level stuff... it's possible the two just plain don't get along. For informational purposes, click on one of your DATAlite partitions and then select "Show Information" from the "File Menu"... then post what "Bytes/Sector" value is given (near the bottom of the dialog). I'm curious what it is (I don't have DATAlite). -dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 163 Sun Oct 24, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 23:49 EDT Will- About your problem with Neo's recoverable trashcan and Datalite2... I know it not much fun to heat this but, it always worked fine for me. I presently run NeoD 3.04 (to enable use with Geneva) but I had installed Datalite2 while still using 3.03 and never had a problem with the trashcan. What do you have your BPB and DFREE set to? I'm sure someone else here will be able to give you more advice, but for now.. try running a clean system, perhaps only DL2 and NeoD at boot up and see if it works then. If it works, you can then add back in your usual 'stuff' until you find the offending prg or acc. I might be remembering the sequence wrong, in that I may have installed the beta of Geneva, and therefore NeoD 3.04, prior to DL2. However, I don't think so. All things being equal, I believe it should be working fine. Good luck, Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 164 Mon Oct 25, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 00:58 EDT DMJ - Datalite will allow you to set the Sector size when you format (newly compress) a partition. I run DL2 on two partitions and have kept the 512 B/S setting. This is what NeoDesk reports on Show Inf. with compressed partition selected as well. It's not the fastest, but I really like Datalite2. Almost as much as I would like a new (read Bigger) drive! Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 165 Mon Oct 25, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:27 EDT Will, Create a TRASHCAN folder on another partition, and "delete" files by mmoving them into there. Then you can later put them into the recoverable trashcan. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 166 Mon Oct 25, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:04 EDT Hard drives are really cheap these days, folks. Not that I'm saying you fans of real-time data compression should reconsider, but the point is simply that a hard drive is likely to be cheaper than replacing data lost from a misbehaving system. And if you have a lot of your files already zipped or otherwise archived, you're getting almost no benefit anyay. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 167 Mon Oct 25, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou @Machine] at 23:57 EDT I have been meaning to ask this for a long time, when I upgraded from my STE to my TT030 (which has a much larger hard disk than my STE), I noticed that the Neodesk recoverable trashcan will not work with large sectors that my hard drive. Not that this is a biggie, since I don't use the recoverable trashcan that often, but I was wondering if this would be fixed for NeoDesk 4? Speaking of NeoDesk 4, is there any time frame to expect the upgrade path from NeoDesk 3.03 to NeoDesk 4/with Geneva? Thanks. --Lou T.-- Written: Thursday, October 21, 1993 00:52 a.m. EDT ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 168 Tue Oct 26, 1993 MIKE-ALLEN [NM~SysOp] at 01:22 EDT Well, I'm having some sort of NeoDesk (3.04) and Calligrapher3 conflict. This one is really strange in that I can't narrow it down to a single prg or acc. Here's what I have as a minimum configuration to dupe the problem. Auto (in order) Jar10 NeoLoad G+PLUS (1.5) or GDOS (1.5 from Gribnif) ACCs NeoQueue STeno Warp9_CP NeoDesk autoruns to install NeoDesk. (Same problem happens with Geneva using the "shell" command in GEM.CNF instead.) What happens is that with G+PLUS I get 3 bombs when trying to run Cal. With GDOS I get 2 bombs on exiting Cal. If I remove ANY of the accs, things run fine. I have installed Cal to use 50% memory or 2 megs. System is a 4 meg MegaSTe with a 120meg Maxtor HD using AHDI 6.05c. TOS is 2.05 and running in ST Medium. Any ideas? Mike Allen ST HelpDesk~Sysop Written: 11:19 PM Mountain Time Monday, October 25, 1993 ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 169 Tue Oct 26, 1993 MIKE-ALLEN [NM~SysOp] at 02:47 EDT oops, slight error in my previous message (#168). Add Warp9_ST in my auto folder between Jar10 and NeoLoad. Doesn't make much sense to run the Warp9_CP without Warp!!!! Mike Allen ST HelpDesk~Sysop Written: 11:36 PM Mountain Time Monday, October 25, 1993 ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 170 Tue Oct 26, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 06:02 EDT Mike, Cal 3? I have Cal 3 and it doesn't use an external GDOS. You have me confused. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 171 Tue Oct 26, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 16:52 EDT Mike, How much free memory does NeoDesk say you have before you run Cal 3? And which printer driver are you using? I recall John E. having said that Cal 3 is sometimes very sensitive to having enough free memory. Will & Lou T., I plan to release a new version of the Trashcan that can handle larger sectors with NeoDesk 4. Most likely, the problem has nothing to do with DATALite, it's just that that partition is larger than 16 Mb. Lou T., NeoDesk 4 will not be out until at least December, at this point. Mike A., I've been having trouble with the volume controls, too. Of course, I only have one speaker on the machines which have this, so it's a little tough to test balance. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 172 Tue Oct 26, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou @Machine] at 20:16 EDT Dan, I am fairly excited about the coming of NeoDesk 4. As it comes nearer to completion, will you give us a feature list as something to look forward to? There are certain features that I hope it will have and I am still in the dark on what will be new in version 4.x. Thanks. --Lou T.-- Written: Tuesday, October 26, 1993 07:46 p.m. EDT ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 173 Tue Oct 26, 1993 MIKE-ALLEN [NM~SysOp] at 21:50 EDT Al, I know that Cal3 doesn't need external GDOS, but some of my other apps do! It is just this set of auto/acc that makes Cal3 crash. Removing ANY of the auto/acc removes the crash. Strange. Mike Allen ST HelpDesk~Sysop Written: 11:42 AM Mountain Time Tuesday, October 26, 1993 ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 174 Wed Oct 27, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:48 EDT Mike, OK, but are you sure Cal 3 functions OK with another GDOS installed? I know it has problems when NVDI's GDOS is working at the same time. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 175 Thu Oct 28, 1993 MIKE-ALLEN [NM~SysOp] at 02:10 EDT Al, Cal3 and G+PLUS used to co-exist on my normal (non-Geneva) set up. I think that I may have managed to munge up my assign.sys file during all the various installations, reboots and configuration changes. I'll let you know when I dig in a little further. Arrrgh, I wish I were a little more organized! Mike Allen ST HelpDesk~Sysop Written: 10:45 PM Mountain Time Wednesday, October 27, 1993 ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 176 Thu Oct 28, 1993 P.BULLOCK2 [PETER] at 14:16 EDT Hi all, I'm experiencing a small problem between pagestream and neodesk 3.04. I have pgs installed as a desktop icon. when clicked upon, it opens fine, but chokes upon printing, 2 bombs. If i quit neodesk and load from Geneva, no problems. The other programs on the desktop do not exhibit these problems. any ideas? Thanks. ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 177 Thu Oct 28, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 17:42 EDT Lou, Sorry, but I don't want to create any "vapor features" here. When it's closer to release, there will be a press release (and a newsletter). Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 178 Thu Oct 28, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 17:55 EDT Peter, Maybe it is a memory problem. There is a default "Limit memory" set for PageStream in the Task Manager. Try increasing this number (or just turning this flag off) and see if that helps. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 179 Thu Oct 28, 1993 T.FITZPATRI8 [Tom] at 22:08 EDT Peter, I've found that setting the fastload bit OFF for the first and last PageStream drivers loaded, the same way you do with Auto folder programs, solves the memory fragmentation and crashes associated with the Geneva/NeoDesk/PageStream combination. (Might this thread be better discussed in the Geneva Hints and Tricks topic?) ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 180 Fri Oct 29, 1993 MIKE-ALLEN [NM~SysOp] at 00:26 EDT Well, I'm still having the devil's own time with NeoDesk 3.04, Warp9 3.80 and GDOS 1.1, GDOS 1.5 or G+PLUS 1.5 with Calligrapher 3. It is driving me nuts since there seems to be an infinite combination of accs (including Warp9_CP, NeoQueue and Steno) which causes Calligrapher to crash with either 2 or 3 bombs. Arrrgh. However, all is well if I use SpeedoGDOS. Guess I'll just stick with Speedo. Meanwhile, I'd still like to know what is going on. If anyone has any ideas on what I should try to narrow down the problem, let me know. I did put in amonst to see what was happening under certain conditions. Real informative . The instruction was: move.l a0,(a0) a0 contained an odd address. Mike Allen ST HelpDesk~Sysop Written: 10:24 PM Mountain Time Thursday, October 28, 1993 ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 181 Sat Oct 30, 1993 B.CONNOLLY1 [Bud] at 03:16 EDT >Well, I'm having some sort of NeoDesk (3.04) and Calligrapher3 conflict. This >one is really strange in that I can't narrow it down to a single prg or acc. >Here's what I have as a minimum configuration to dupe the problem. > > Auto (in order) > Jar10 > NeoLoad > G+PLUS (1.5) or > GDOS (1.5 from Gribnif) > Mike, I remember reading somewhere that Neoload needs to be the last program in the AUTO folder. Try that. Bud ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 182 Sat Oct 30, 1993 MIKE-ALLEN [NM~SysOp] at 04:35 EDT Bud, thanks for the suggestion. I tried making NeoLoad last with the same problems. Arrrrgh! Mike Allen ST HelpDesk~Sysop Written: 2:30 AM Mountain Time Saturday, October 30, 1993 ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 183 Sat Oct 30, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 07:47 EDT Mike Allen, >> Well, I'm still having the devil's own time with NeoDesk >> 3.04, Warp9 3.80 and GDOS 1.1, GDOS 1.5 or G+PLUS 1.5 >> with Calligrapher 3. >> >> It is driving me nuts since there seems to be an infinite >> combination of accs (including Warp9_CP, NeoQueue and >> Steno) which causes Calligrapher to crash with either 2 or >> 3 bombs. Arrrgh. I posted a list of the ones that I'd discovered over in Topic 19 of this Category, Geneva - Multitasking Environment, so you might look over there. The culprits are primarily desk accessories which provide corner clocks and/or calculators. ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 184 Sat Oct 30, 1993 MIKE-ALLEN [NM~SysOp] at 20:01 EDT Mike Squire, Well, my problems seem to be strictly NeoDesk related. They happen even without Geneva. No corner clocks, or calculators. It really seems to be some sort of NeoDesk/Warp9/GDOS interaction when using certain combinations of accs. Having NeoQueue, STeno and the Warp9_CP all installed will cause the problem. The problem goes away when I use SpeedoGDOS. Mike Allen ST HelpDesk~Sysop Written: 4:40 PM Mountain Time Saturday, October 30, 1993 ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 185 Sun Oct 31, 1993 T.HENRY12 [Tom Jr.] at 15:24 EST Hey all, I'm not quite sure wheter to post this here or in Geneva, so here goes. I just purchased Geneva last week and NeoDesk yesterday. It's a wonderful combination, far better than many aspects of M-TOS. One small question though. I notice that in the Geneva manual, several screen shots have NeoDesk-type windows with 3D gadgets. I can get Geneva-style 3D, but not NeoDesk. Is there something I've missed, or are these screen shots of the coming NeoDesk 4? So far, most everything I've used with this combo works. Calamus SL would not run properly with M-TOS, but sure does in Geneva! Thanks, Tom ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 186 Sun Oct 31, 1993 P.BULLOCK2 [PETER] at 15:38 EST Dan, Tom, Thanks for the input. I seem to have solved the pagestream/neodesk problem by taking the fastload off on just the printer drivers. I guess it was memory fragmentation. I not sure why this solved the problem, and frankly, I don't care as long as it works. ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 187 Sun Oct 31, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 23:02 EST Tom, The version of NeoDesk you bought can be no higher than 3.03. That's the latest commercial version out. (NeoDesk 4 won't be out till around December) You need to run at least version 3.04 with Geneva. There should be a patch program on the Geneva disk. Use that to upgrade your 3.03 (?) to 3.04 and get all the neat 3d Neo stuff. I don't remember if it is on the Geneva disk, but I'm sure someone here will correct me if I'm wrong. Wait till you get used to the combo of G/NeoD, you will enjoy your system more than ever! Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 188 Mon Nov 01, 1993 GENIELAMP.ST [John G] at 01:55 EST Tom, You need to replace the NeoDesk .RSC file found on the Geneva disk to get the 3D buttons. John E. Gniewkowski Editor, GEnieLamp S ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 189 Mon Nov 01, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 17:23 EST Tom Jr., Once you've patched to NeoDesk 3.04, you still need to use the replacement resource files that are on the second Geneva disk in the SRSC.SFX file. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 190 Mon Nov 01, 1993 T.HENRY12 [Tom Jr.] at 20:16 EST Hey all, About my previous post saying I couldn't get the 3D "look" out of NeoDesk. Dopey me didn't update the .RSC files as per the instructions. They work fine. Sorry. Tom ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 191 Mon Nov 01, 1993 A.CULLUM1 at 22:45 EST Hi, I finally broke down the other day, and bought myself a Falcon. I got it home, hooked everything up (and after a few setbacks) got everything to run, only to discover that I cannot delete folders under NeoDesk. All the files within a folder will delete just fine, but when it gets to a folder, I get error -34 ("Path not found", or something to that extent) I can delete the folder anywhere else. It works from the built in desktop, or by switching to Geneva and using the file selector to select and delete the folder. I have booted up with nothing but Jar10 and Neoload in the auto folder, and it still gives me the same error. Has anyone else had a similar problem? Or are there known problems with NeoDesk and the Falcon? Any help would be appreciated, Andrew Cullum (btw, its NeoDesk 3.04 and TOS 4.04) ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 192 Mon Nov 01, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 23:17 EST Oh yeah! (sorry Tom Jr.) I forgot I forgot to mention the .RSC files! Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 193 Mon Nov 01, 1993 DMJ [dmj] at 23:22 EST Andrew: You've found a "feature" of the new TOS. Atari removed a feature from the new TOSes that NeoDesk depended on to delete folders. There's nothing you can do about it. I believe Dan said he was fixing it in NeoDesk 4, about which he's been very [sensibly] tight-lipped. -dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 194 Tue Nov 02, 1993 A.CULLUM1 at 01:20 EST Thanks for the quick reply. Is there any word on when NeoDesk 4 is due out? ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 195 Tue Nov 02, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 05:42 EST Tom, Matt had the answer. Those are screen shots from the ST here, and even in monochrome the look of Geneva is wonderifulous. On the TT, in 256 color mode, it's outstanding. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 196 Tue Nov 02, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 06:39 EST A.Collum1 (sorry, I didn't get your first name), There's a bug in the Falcon TOS that causes this. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 197 Tue Nov 02, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 18:45 EST Mike Allen, >> Well, my problems seem to be strictly NeoDesk related. >> They happen even without Geneva. No corner clocks, or >> calculators. >> >> It really seems to be some sort of NeoDesk/Warp9/GDOS >> interaction when using certain combinations of accs. >> Having NeoQueue, STeno and the Warp9_CP all installed >> will cause the problem. I use NeoDesk (v3.04), STeno (v2.00), and Warp9_CP (v3.80), and G+Plus (v1.5) all in my usual setup and don't have any problems like you described with Calligrapher 3 so they're probably nnot the source of your problem. I -can- get Calligrapher to bomb if I call up the XControl Panel and try to change the location of the Clipboard using the Clipboard Manager CPX (which I've since disabled). My guess is that your problem is either caused by GDOS (a good bet since Speedo GDOS is problem-free) or NeoQueue (I'm using OutBurST for my print spooler except the author recommends turning it off with Calligrapher since a spooler does no good with it). Since you really don't need GDOS in order for Calligrapher 3 to work, I'm assuming you load it to support some other application. ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 198 Tue Nov 02, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 23:27 EST Al, "wonderifulous"?!? I like it. (_and_ I'll get some milage out of it, too!) ;-) Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 199 Thu Nov 04, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 13:09 EST Andrew, What you are hitting is a known bug in the Falcon TOS. Atari is aware of the problem, and plans to fix it for a future version of TOS. I also plan to change NeoDesk 4 so that it will not hit this problem. Right now, there is no way around this other than to use another utility to delete the folder. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 200 Sat Nov 06, 1993 W.ORTIZ [Will] at 07:41 EST Matt, What's up! My DATAlite parameters are the following: Abs. Minimum - BOOT Act. Minimum - BPB Average - DFREE Only legal sectors and Save all boot sectors are also selected. Should I change them? I get a little nervous doing that. I'll change it if it works. P.S. I noticed when I do a 'Show Info' of my compressed partition it comes up with the correct compressed information...For example, I have a 55 Meg Partition with a compressed maximum of 110 Meg. NeoDesk 3 (3.03) will report the total compressed maximum. It sees that, but when I try using the recoverable trashcan it won't allow it. Hmmm... Will W.ORTIZ ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 201 Sat Nov 06, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 10:47 EST Will, The trashcan won't work with extended partition sizes. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 202 Sat Nov 06, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 21:04 EST Will, Hiya! I was just going to post that I have the same settings (except I keep the save all boot sectors-off) and that I have no idea why the trashcan works for me and not you. THEN, I read Al's post. I guess because I don't keep any partitions larger than 16 meg (when uncompressed) the system handles it well. If i remember correctly, there are several programs that run into trouble with extended (ie over 16 meg) partition sizes. Al's info is reliable. I wonder if this is addressed in NeoDesk 4 ??? Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 203 Mon Nov 08, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 13:07 EST Matt & Will, I intend to up the maximum partiton size in the next version of the trashcan. Right now, you can only read partitions with sectors of 512 bytes (i.e.: a 16 Meg or less drive). Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 14 Message 204 Mon Nov 08, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 19:41 EST Thanks Dan. I don't have a problem with the trashcan/16 meg limit, but it's nice to know that it's on your list! Matt R. ------------