========================================================================= (C) 1993 by Atari Corporation, GEnie, and the Atari Roundtables. May be reprinted only with this notice intact. The Atari Roundtables on GEnie are *official* information services of Atari Corporation. To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem) 800-638-8369. Upon connection type HHH (RETURN after that). Wait for the U#= prompt.Type XTX99437,GENIE and press [RETURN]. The system will prompt you for your information. ========================================================================== Category 25, Topic 16 Message 1 Tue Apr 21, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 03:58 EDT If I'm operating Aladdin correctly this should be the first message (cross fingers here!). I'm starting this topic so that we may be able to help improve our creative thinking skills. Most the Lexicor library is dedicated to the technical aspects and basic problems of each individual program. I felt we needed a topic to help handle the other end of the process. Remember when you enter this topic that it's for creative purposes. All opinions are welcome and there are no stupid, trivial questions or right answers. Please check pre-conceived notions and social barriers and topic cops at the door.:-) They will be well cared for and returned to you as you leave the topic. Now for something completely different... Imagination is basically the distortion of existing creation. If we try to imagine something entirely new we'll find it's simple made of enhanced pieces from other perceptions. If we try to imagine a state other then Gas, Solid, Liquid or Plasm. We'll find it impossible to create such a matter. We may create a unique substance but it will simple be a composite of the properties contained in the above mentioned 4. Now we can see imagination is somewhat limited by this definition. In order to expand our imagination it's important to push the limits outward. Outward hoooo.... Observation is simple method, it just takes a small amount of thought. Over the years our mind decides whats normal and whats not then it checks that list. Unfortunately we end up missing a lot of things just because there seen on a daily basis. What we need to do is force our minds to look at these things as if they've never been seen before. How many concepts could arise from just taking a minute to consider a blade of grass? Hmm... how about two tribes of little creatures who argue over possession of the blade of grass. After reaching an agreement they find it has been eaten by a large beatle... opps. Now they begin talks for the blade next to that one... Welp... Observation is a good start on expanding the limits of imagination but theres plenty more and I want to see it in this topic.:-) If you have any profound observations or know a good way to expand the bounds of imagination please speak up! ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 2 Tue May 05, 1992 LEXICOR [Lexicor] at 04:34 EDT Realm, I once had an insperation based on the blade of grass idea you commented on. the scene opens with a news camera man setting his video camera down in the grass at a park, while he waits for the news person to finish a conversation at a phone booth. the camera man fogets to shut off the camear, so it is taping. POV the camera lens as it auto focuses....we see a tiny pupa that hangs from the underside of a toadstool. it shakes and then splits...from it emerges a delicate faerie which then extens tiny transparent wings to dry. the fasie tears a bit of toadstool off to make a all to brief tatter of clouthing. then stretches infront of the camera lens. At this point the news person retuns from the phone booth and tells the camera person to get moving. The camera person notices the camera was on and as the two walk back to the news van complaining about the lack of any interesting assigments the camera person rewinds the tape. When this insperation for an animation first surfaced I had yet to buy my first computer. I made a sketch or too but never did more because I knew it would take more time than I had to just do the key frame pencile drawings. Now such a project or at least the faerie segments could be done by any reasonably compatent computer animator in a ,atter of weeks. You see Realm that what you observed is ever present in all of us, it's a shame that more people don't realize that they can with just a little effort make their dreams and imaginings 9?sic) become real through this new "Medium" the computer. Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 3 Tue May 05, 1992 S.LIVERSIDGE [STEVE L] at 23:08 EDT Yo, Lexicor: Re your animation sequence, doesn't it remind you of DL's (not David Lean) Blue Velvet. Okay, okay, interspersed with a Conan Doyle hoax. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 4 Wed May 06, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 00:09 EDT Coolness! I wouldn't be surprised if it's actually happened that way.:-) I'm wondering if the fairy had any idea the camera person was working for the human news. I can see her checking herself out in the reflection of the camera lens unaware of it's ability to transmit her image all over the world. Might be interesting if the camera where hooked to a monitor where anyone walking by could see. Better yet shoot a major portion of the animation on a B & W monitor with feet constantly going back and forth in front of it. Have her cleaning and grooming herself in a small drop of dew, right in plain sight. Have a guy drop his glasses and pick them up right in front of it. That would have some viewers yelling "look you idiot!".:-) After the camera man hauls the camera off rewinding it, travel outward through a monitor where a scientists turns to sign in a delivery. As he looks away from his electron microscope the little blue Earth travels across the screen about 2" in diameter. Thats probably overkill... the original concept is complexly simple and leaves a lot more for the imagination (as you can see!). ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 5 Thu May 07, 1992 LEXICOR [Lexicor] at 23:23 EDT Hopefuly, You will all be able to begin to use the ATARI as a creative medium in sted of a computer, Aftere all the name it self is an accident of history. Just think what it would be called if it (the Computer) had been used to do graphics first in sted of computations! In any case the faerie insperation can be done now, it can be modeled on the Atari, it can be animated on the Atari, and it can be rendered on the Atari. The only real limiting factor at present is speed and limited color. I hope we will be able to get the final Video bugs out of our card and marry it to Mona-Lisa so that we can all begin to explor the medium of Atari Grafix (sic). Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 6 Fri May 08, 1992 B.STOREY [Bill] at 09:11 EDT Lexicor: > You will all be able to begin to use the ATARI as a creative medium in >sted of a computer, Instead of a computer? You mean Atari ISN'T a computer? ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 7 Sat May 09, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 00:26 EDT Bill, I think Lee's refering to the way people view the computer as a machine instead of an artistic tool. You know, number crunching, finances, word processing, etc, etc. Not to mention the politics involved with owning an 'Atari' computer.:-) We can't discuss that any further because it's not allowed in this topic.:-) I think we need to get past that 'machine view' and see the computer as you would a paint brush or pencil. It's just another medium for conveying ideas. It has it's own characteristics like any other medium. It wouldn't hurt to get over the Atari issue either. Stop worrying about Atari the company, Atari the Computer and see it as something to use like anything else. The one thing I like about this medium is it's very forgiving and easy to get out of the carpet.:-) Plus once you create something you can pass it around to different programs or experiment with it later. You put something on paper or canvas and thats it.... aside from erasing big holes in a pencil sketch or scabbing more paint on a canvas. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 8 Sat May 09, 1992 LEXICOR [Lexicor] at 23:07 EDT Well Said realm, I had never really thought of the "computer" as a computer! I always thought of it as a tool to greate graphics. And now that is actually happening at the desk top. I would venture that in the next year the"computer" will finally become what I consider a true "Creative medium". Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 9 Sun May 10, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 15:29 EDT Thanks Lee!:-) I hope your right because it's still really mis-understood even now. Mention to somebody you own a computer and they usually reply "Oh, you doing Word Processing?" or "Trying to balance the checkbook?" I tell them I'm doing 'Creative Processing', that gets some interesting responses.:-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 10 Mon May 11, 1992 LEXICOR [Lexicor] at 03:50 EDT Realm, Well actually, we are already there. but only in the sense that vary high end systems used to create broadcast video do these things. If you are very carful and really know the in's and out's you can do "broadcast" quality computer animations now at the desk top. I don't mean at the practical level but at o level, yours and mine! (the creative) level. Currently I have figured out how to make transparent soft bodied animals... "Jelly fish"...and only this evening got the rippling muscle action these animals us to work. Now I have the test animals working..."Bell shaped objects"...I have to build a complete animal and then a first animation. It will take at least two passes through the anm file to get an animation. The real shame is that only people who get our video tape will see this stuff at the moment. I could upload the animation, 22Megs in size. But I don't think It could be uploaded in a single whammpf! and 160 targa files is even worse. So for me while I am pleased to be learning how to do these things and I know when we can re- lease the next wave of Phase-4 our users will jump for joy... it is very frustrating not being able to share my work with others. As an artist thats where the real pay off for all the work that is in volved. I have begun to give instore seminars on lexicor products and 15/24 Bit color. mayhaps one of these days I will visit a store near you and you will be able to try some of this stuff your self. That is if you have not gotten your own color card and software by then. Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 11 Mon May 11, 1992 ISD [Nathan] at 16:12 EDT Lee...I volunteer to upload all 160 targa files, seriously. If you send them to me on cartridge I'll upload them into the library for you. I bet you'll be amazed but some people would certainly download them. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 12 Mon May 11, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 19:40 EDT Lee, Speaking of video tape... Where's mine?:-) I've been waiting impatently as usual. I think it's only been a little over a week so I'm probable 'way' premature in asking but the suspense is killing me.:-) Plus all that other good stuff, can't wait! Have you thought about offering a trade in policy for 44Meg carts? Something along... Send us your cart and $15(?) for 40Megs worth of files. I wouldn't mind doing that, should be cheaper then downloading 40Megs. You might even be able to get some dealers to load the carts when they sell them. Plus, I know your looking for something to do in your spare time.:-) Those Jelly fish sound interesting! How do you make two passes through an Animation file? I've been playing with a 3-D Stickman but I only got to experiment about 2 hours. I made the models and they worked perfect the first time! Purely luck, on my part... or great software!:-) Hope I'm that lucky during the rest of it... ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 13 Mon May 11, 1992 LEXICOR [Lexicor] at 23:13 EDT Realm, I have been holding it so I could add the last few animations. I might try your dealer cartg. Idea but we already have a dealer cartg, that the dealer can buy. making several passes is very simple. heres how it works. lets suppose that you have an object that passed accross the scre in one direction and another that passed in a different direction and there is some kind of staging that does not move. OK you could just run the whole thing. It might take a week to generate 60 frames. On the other hand you could hide the two objects and just generate one stage. Then hide the stage and generate 60 frames of one of the moving objects. next you could hide this first object and generate the second object. All this would take less than half the time because the computer would have far less to calculate. Nothing but the object. When you are finished you would have three animations. Now you overlay or underlay as the need dictates these three to make the final animation. In the case of items with highlights and reflections it is often faster to render them, then throw away the base object and overlay the highlights or reflection patterns. Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 14 Tue May 12, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 00:39 EDT Cool! Feel free to add all kinds of stuff to my tape! Did you hold the Tablet too? Sorry... I'm so addicted!:-) Thats a good idea on the layering but how do you layer the finished frames? Do you have an in-house feature or can you load it into the copy block of Prism and place each one seperately? My rendering is limited right now to Chronos and TT Low or Medium, plus I only have the two packages. My knowledge on this subject is pretty limited at this point. I've been meaning to ask if anybody knows where to get Video's of computer animation? I've taped 3 so far off KET or Discovery but they've been mostly about commercials. One had Pixars Willy B., the forest was incredible! I've seen other clips of Pixars stuff in the news but I can't seem to find anything to buy. I saw a part of the Snowman trying to get out of the bottle and the baby chasing the toy solder. I'd like to find them somewhere so I can watch the whole thing about a million times.:-) I thought they assembled the shorts from the Animation Festival each year btu I've had no luck so far. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 15 Tue May 12, 1992 B.KOLINS1 [Brian] at 01:03 EDT Here's 2 I purchased at a local video store -- they were on sale for $9.95 -- how could I resist! > Computer Animation Magic - MPI Home Video > Computer Dreams - Digital Vision Home Video (with your host Amanda Pays - Leviathan, Flash fame. Worth the price of admition alone!) Many graphics software developers offer their own demo tapes much like Lexicor's. They're pretty eager to distribute these if there's the hint of a possible sale! I've seen especially good ones from AT&T/GSL and AutoDesk. AutoDesk's even had a very nicely done Jellyfish on the tape. That one was defintely captivatin' :) ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 16 Tue May 12, 1992 LEXICOR [Lexicor] at 22:55 EDT Realm, Your tape is made and I am processing your tablet order this evening. yes we have an inhouse way to do the layers. it's called the "animators toolset" . this will do every thing you want. Bare in mind that as long as you are doing everything in ST low you have Cyber paint and computer eyes as well. this allows you to import real world back grounds to add to animations you can convert your chronos animations to SPC 512 files and animate these as 512 dlt. animations with 512 colors. this you can save on tape in real time with any of several atari computers including the 520stfm, 1040 stfm, mega Ste and any 1040 with NTSC encoder. If you save your basic work as .ANM files then you can re-generate these at any future time using higher res/colors. You should if your are seriously interested, be learning every- thing you can about object modeling. Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 17 Wed May 13, 1992 M.POCHE [Mick] at 01:54 EDT Lee, Actually, Cyber Paint is out for us MegaSTE users, as it locks up on TOS 2.xx. That's one of the real bummers with the MSTE, but I'm sure someone will create a program to replace it for us. ;^) ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 18 Wed May 13, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 03:57 EDT Thanks for working late on my order! I just got a TT...opps.:-) I had a Vidi ST but it didn't work on the TT and I sold my Computer Eyes to buy Vidi. I haven't tried Cyberpaint but it gave out on my Mega STe so I didn't think it would work with TOS 3.06 (although it doesn't work faster now). Spectrum can't, won't, will not and probable never will work.:-) I'm not too interested in rendering to tape at this point. I've been using TT Medium and low and thats close enough for now. Like you said I'm more interested in the modeling and motion control at this point. All the 24bit rendering in the world won't save a poorly executed concept. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 19 Wed May 13, 1992 LEXICOR [Lexicor] at 04:43 EDT REALM, OK......I guess that tells it all......:-) I am now only just realizing through exposure to the real workings of high end systems how close Chronos is to being a professional application. I also seem to be on the verge of being able to build "good" objects. You know ones with out holes, with out seems in the wrong places, with smooth even curves and all the rest. I have been doing stick figure motion animations and wire frame animations trying to learn motion controle. No matter how much time I can find to study it never seems to be enough? When I get the Crystal jellyfish completed I will send you a copy. I am sure you will like it! Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 20 Thu May 14, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 00:01 EDT I'd love to see the Crystal Jellyfish! I saw something flipping through cable a couple weeks ago on those little translucent creatures that live deep in the ocean. The have tiny electrical lighting systems running trhough their mass. Reminded me of the Aliens in the Abyss. Probable the source of inspiration. I've been messing with stick figures myself because there easy to create and don't require a lot of system time. I'm planning on messing with a stickman soon as get done here.:-) See ya... ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 21 Thu May 14, 1992 LEXICOR [Lexicor] at 22:34 EDT Joey, I will be adding it to our video tape when it is finished. My next project will be a Crystal Fire Dragon. the story board goes like this: 1. First you see drops of water falling from the tip of an oak leaf-POV under the leaf. Next the drop hardens just as it is about to rfall from the leaf. It transforms into a Pupa. next you see somethin develop in side the crystal Pupa. next the Pupa splits and a tiney Crystal dragon emerges. It's wings expand and it then breaths leaser fire on to the Pupa vaporizing it, then flyies away. The background is a defocused forest scene with a fortres pearched on a cragy spire. You see each new project is built on what is learned in the one befor. Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 22 Fri May 15, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 01:33 EDT Coolness! Can't wait to check that one out! I'm currently playing with a Stickman. I was surprised that my modeling time is 90% of the work. I don't think I've used Chronos about an hour or so. It does everything by itself! I set three or four frames and I've created some complex camera movements and morphing effects. It's great! I've accomplished more in that time then I ever did with Cyber Control. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 23 Fri May 15, 1992 LEXICOR [Lexicor] at 05:27 EDT REALM, We shipped your order today. I was holding it hoping to include the crystal jelly fish but it is still rendering away. BTW learning motion with your stick figures is the most important thing you could do. the models can be subed in later, if the motion is poor the best model in the world will be shabby at best. And save all those motion files and models...when we start shipping the 24Bit stuff that will all come in handy. Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 24 Sat May 16, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 13:52 EDT Thanks for letting me know about my order! Now I can really be impatient until it arrives.:-) Too bad about the Jelly Fish, any chance I can send the tape back in a month or so and get some more added for a small fee? Wouldn't mind seeing the Crystal Dragon when it's finished...hint... hint.:-) I've been incredible lucky with the stickman for some reason. Every model I make seems to do just what I want it too. I keep adding them to my cycles and they work first time out. Soon as get a couple minutes of film I'll upload the animation file so you can pick on it.:-) This is the first semi real thing I've tried and it seems to going really well so far! The one tool I'd really like to see is a way to link objects to joints and move them with the mouse. Cyber is good but it's hard to move things like stickmen. The arms and legs are seldom square to your view so rotate and bend are acting on them at cross angles. Not to mention rotate acts around the center of the model and not the joint so your leg or arm travels about 3 feet around the man everytime you move it.:-) Luckily, Morphing saves a lot of model making since you only have to hit 3 or 4 key points. Excellent feature fo Chronos! ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 25 Sat May 16, 1992 LEXICOR [Lexicor] at 19:12 EDT REALM, If you are moving arms or legs at odd angles then you are doing it wrong! Your model should be set up in sculpt so that all movement of parts (linbs) is along X,Y,Z only. All the realitive angles occure in chronos durring the animation. You can move the axies of joints if you like but you should not be using the rotate function on assembled objects in chronos. All these "Sub-actions" as I call them should be pre deturmined in you cycle or morph object files. An example might be walking. the cycle of the legs walking would be one body and 8 pairs of legs that can be cycled to walk. the path the walker takes in cluding leaning into a turn are set up as keyframes. with the two you can walk the object in any fashion you like. this is importand because you can switch object types durring a cycle with "sub-Morphs" this means the walker could break into a skipping or hopping gate at any time along the path you set up. You can choose the exact moment this can happen. In ths way you can in a single animation create very complex action like sword fights or what ever with out the need of elaboriate scripting files. All you beed are a few bodies and groupes of arms and legs that are modeled to do different things. Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 26 Sun May 17, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 02:28 EDT Lee, I'm not really doing it the 'wrong' way, I'm just not doing it the 'best' way.:-) I don't understand exactly what your saying but I have a better idea now, thanks to your suggestion. I should have my arms and legs prefabed then scab them to the body and head. In Chronos I'm using the whole Stickman in one piece. I've already setup the keyframe Stickmen in Cyber. I couldn't figure out an easy way to link the legs and everything together seperate in Chronos and still cycle. Hmm... I could cycle each individual piece come to think of it. Is that what your saying? For instance, I should have a cycle for the upper arm, lower arm, etc, etc... Then if I want the arm to rotate up while twisting to the right I can just change the last frame in the cycle? I'm I getting close? ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 27 Mon May 18, 1992 LEXICOR [Lexicor] at 04:41 EDT REALM, ordinarily I would agree with you about a "right or wrong" way to do something. But in this case the software was designed to do animations in a very cirtin way. And while it is true that you don't have to do it our way, you should. The reason is that if you do you will be able to create the same kind of animations I have. Like the man pedling the bicyle that has legs insted of wheels. The whole idea of cycles and morphs is to build a groupe of objects that can be used in many different ways. As in combinations. each different combination will create a different motion. Like the running and jumping example. In this way we hope to make it possible for users who had no computer expearance would be able to do very complex animations. While we don't use the term scab on in animation, the answer is yes. Keep up your efforts you are on the right track. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 28 Mon May 18, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 18:50 EDT Lee, it's pretty obvious I need to experiment a little more with the basics.:-) I got the results I was after, I just did it the hard way. I'll try something different on the next stretch of action. However, when I'm finished I think the expression 'scabed together' will probably describe it very acurately.:-) I'm trying a little bit of everything. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 29 Wed May 20, 1992 B.KOLINS1 [Brian] at 01:33 EDT Joey, Didn't get the whole gist of your message but something about "objects moving 3 feet whenever I rotate..." Are toggling on that little box that says GLOBAL to LOCAL? That'll cure that problem. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 30 Wed May 20, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 03:02 EDT Thanks Brian, Maybe I should break out the manual and see if it still works.:-) I'm sure theres a couple other things I've forgotten also... ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 31 Sun May 24, 1992 R.MONFORT1 [LEXICOR] at 01:32 EDT Joey, you are correct I just notice that you had created your topic ans so I forgot to update my topic list in aladdin. Now back to topic: YES, we need to have the computer as a natural artist tool, like having "Tablets, and excellent Paint Programs like Mona-Lisa to give all of us the artistic tools that we need. So forget that it is a computer, think off it as a graphic/drawing device to create all of your special ideas. More Later. ------------- Joey and Lee: Reply to message 9, Here is one close-minded IBM user reply, " Why would anyone use a computer as a graphics media? What ever happen to painting on a board for animaiton work?" and my reply would be what ever happen to good thinking or even better, how about letting your mind open-up to good ideas. -------- Nathan. I would upload them the TGA files also and many others but I have that Genie problem! -------- One more, after listening to Lee's seminar lecture today. I can say to all of you that his sample animation work in 24bit mode is excellent, he also gives all of us very good points in animation work. later. Ringo. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 32 Sun May 24, 1992 ISD [Nathan] at 09:39 EDT Ringo...Pleasse send me the files. I'll be happy to upload them for you. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 33 Sun May 24, 1992 R.MONFORT1 [LEXICOR] at 19:13 EDT Joey. Lee was very kind in giving me his book "BUILDING BEINGS, CREATING CREATURES and DOING DINOSAURS - A Guide for the Stop-Motion Modeler". It is not a computer animation book but it is excellent for creating 3D creatures and how they should work. The animation Classes cover some of the same technical information. The book has black and white pictures of Lee at work drawing Dinos and Building dinos. Excellent book. Ringo. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 34 Mon May 25, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 01:46 EDT Cool Ringo! Lee, do you carry the book yourself or can I just pick it up at a bookstore? About the video, it mentioned a lot of the animation was cut short because of the length of the tape. This is exactly the kind of stuff I'd like to watch. Is there some way to get the complete animations? Are they mostly in house animations from different artists or are they available on other tapes? I'm not talking about getting it from Lexicor. I'm sure theres some commercial stuff available I'm just not sure where to look. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 35 Mon May 25, 1992 LEXICOR [Lexicor] at 01:50 EDT Nathan, Ringo has yet to have his Lexicor Flag reinstated, which is a problem for him and us. The targa files start at a MEG and just get bigger. Ringo simply can not be imposed on to make that kind of investment. Mr. John Cole18 is now the head of Lexicors TOS division and i guess be the person you should approach if you wish access to Lexicor resources with respect to TOS applications. Generally most 24Bit Targa format images Lexicor has are my own work, the exception a few examples of Canadian currency scanned by J Craswell. The 24Bit files most have see are my paintings transferred to video tape and currently available . Most uploaded versions have been conversions to GIF for Compuserve and a few Spectrum test files. May I suggest that you contact mr. Cole18 with regards to getting any targa materials you might be interested in. BTW you might also see what you can do about Mr. Monforts Flag reinstatement. He works for us and need to have his access restored so that he can continue the fine work he has done for both Lexicor and Genie. Lee Seiler President Lexicor Software. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 36 Mon May 25, 1992 ATARIAUSTRIA [J.Widi] at 11:52 EDT Ringo, do You know if Lee's "Building Beings..." book is still in print? And if so, can You tell me the publisher (and eventually that magic ISBN number) so I can go hunting for it? -Johannes ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 37 Tue May 26, 1992 LEXICOR [Lexicor] at 00:31 EDT Realm Well we have quite a bit of material, the real problem is not if you can have it so much as we got most of the material from the authors as raw files or Targa files. We used short segments to demonstarte what our resolution of choice will look like on video. I know this may sound strange but if I show someone interested in water pipe anlysis a video of animals being animated, they often will ask some thing like............ "Well can you do water flow in a pipe?" and conversily showing steam pipe failure anlysis to some one interested in doing cartoons will get the same sort of questions. So what we did was to do just bits and pices. Most were targa or converted to targa and then transfered to tape. The going cost for this is $350 per rendered second. I might suggest you check some local video shops, they often have Video animations and computer animations available. I regret that we simpley can not fill your request. We hope you will understand. About My Book: It is no longer in print. There are still a few around and are available for the asking as long as there are any. I must caution all interested is that they are in storage and not the best condition. Most have rusty wire back binding. The only cost if any one wants a copy would be the mailing cost and the price of an envelope. If I get any more request we will figure out a cost. Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 38 Tue May 26, 1992 M.POCHE [Mick] at 03:00 EDT Lee, Your book sounds like something I would be interested in. When I was about 12 years old, I took a summer course at LSU on animation. We mostly did "Claymation" type stuff on Super 8 film, and a bit of work in cell animation. The instructor was this wild 60's kind of guy who did some incredible animation work, and later went on to become part of the production group on the movie "sex, lies, and videotape" (director Steve Soderburg is from here in Baton Rouge). Your book would've come in handy back then, but I figure it's never too late, so you can add my name to the list of requests. The thing that I've always found most attractive about animation is that _anything_ is possible, especially on computers! ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 39 Tue May 26, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 20:18 EDT Lee, I completely understand... I wasn't really looking for the files I just wanted to see the animations on video. I really like the short segments you had with the bugs and metal insects. I didn't know if it was work in progress, available on video or what.:-) I've seen a lot of little Pixar clips on the news but I can't seem to find that stuff. I did find a series on animation that had a lot of good stuff. There was lot of good music on that Video too!:-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 40 Tue May 26, 1992 LEXICOR [Lexicor] at 21:55 EDT To ALL: First...there is no list for my booklet. if you want a copy just send a post card or E-Mail or drop a note here?? and we will ship them out. When it was in print The postage was 64cents. Now I would guess $1.50 ??? I will wait till I see how many are wanted then do a mailing. As far as the clips you saw, we got everything as Raw files so that we could process it in our own resolutions. I will try to find some time to upload the object files for some of these animations, then you can make your own animations. Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 41 Tue May 26, 1992 S.FEENEY [Shaun] at 22:11 EDT Lee, I would like to have a copy of the book if possible, I just bought a copy of Prism Paint BTW. Shaun ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 42 Wed May 27, 1992 J.ROY18 [Jonathan] at 00:59 EDT 350$/sec isn't so bad though... 30 frames a sec. About a meg a frame. That's about 10$ or so per meg... (wink) Does lexicor have a frame-perfect SVHS controller in the works? ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 43 Wed May 27, 1992 LEXICOR [Lexicor] at 03:16 EDT ROY18, Yes we do. We have two units on developers order. One is JVC the other is Sony. If and when these are released we will produce software controllers. "But that is a BIG" IF? we have no control over the availability or delivery of these machines and it took me three months to get the two companies to take my request seriously. The just could not accept the idea that anyone would spend any money to record any immage to tape from an ATARI. I finally had to russel up an RGB Spectrum real time video work station (cost $10,000.00) and make an animation of my seahorse rendered as a Crystal object in front of a 24BIT color field (swerl of colors). Once they saw this they started answering my letters and returning my calls. Now at least we have some credibility. I won't burden you with the details but surfice it to say that I get lauphed at a lot when I approach commerical HWD Mfg'ers about making some kind of compatabilaty link with ATARI. I will post all the info and details as soon as we can deliver useable software. It all depends on ATARI now, I am confident they will come through with what we need to be compeditive with AMIGA and MAC. Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 44 Wed May 27, 1992 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 18:05 EDT Realm, The best source of computer animation videos I've found available are in the 'underground' arts video stores. You should be able to find one in most major cities. Tivoli Video in Kansas City, TLA video in Philadelphia, I forget the name of the place I used to go in NYC. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 45 Wed May 27, 1992 J.ROY18 [Jonathan] at 19:04 EDT Most of the good animation can be found on older copies of Siggraph VHS tapes... (Grinning Evil Death for one.) ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 46 Wed May 27, 1992 J.ROY18 [Jonathan] at 19:36 EDT That's cool. Right now we have to drag files over to a friend's house to copy them to tape. He has a A3000/Toaster setup. Real hassle. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 47 Wed May 27, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 20:07 EDT John, Thanks but I live in the sticks.:-) I may be able to find a small place around here with people willing to look. Have you ever asked somebody at Blockbuster if they can find something? Gee, they act like you've layed some heavy work load on them, having to type into that computer and everything.:-) Just sit there sucking on that empty Wendies cup, I'll do it myself...sheesh... want me to take that cup over and get a refill while I'm at it?:-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 48 Wed May 27, 1992 B.AEIN [B Man] at 21:41 EDT I'll take you up on that animation booklet! I am a film major at U. of Maryland Baltimore County, and have done a fair number of stop action as well as cell animations. Send Email for myu address. Thanks Bman ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 49 Thu May 28, 1992 R.MONFORT1 [LEXICOR] at 00:04 EDT Jonathan, yes and the Toaster is not "NetWork" quality anyway. I do have a video that John Cole has seen! Ringo. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 50 Thu Jun 11, 1992 LEXICOR at 22:53 EDT Joey, how about some type of underwater sea monster or creatures like in the Abyss movie that should be a very nice piece of work. Anyone else with some other ideas? ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 51 Fri Jun 12, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 20:56 EDT Speaking of the Abyss, what about those High pressure suits made out of spheres and rings. Those look like something begging to be animated. I also like the water tentacle idea or the creatures that dragged him through the lighted tunnels. Might be interesting trying to create the lighting effects. You could probable make underwater light rays out of alternating alomost non- visible models. I was finally getting some time to use Chonos now I'm busy again...sheesh. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 52 Sat Jun 13, 1992 LEXICOR at 00:29 EDT Joey, how can you be busy with out Chronos!?! Well you have pointed out some very usefull Ideas. Lets see, how about JAWS, can that be done with some type of animation work? Hint: Lets all talk about it. Yes we can and No we cannot. Lets see why maybe we can work out some Ideas. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 53 Sat Jun 13, 1992 E.WELLS at 02:32 EDT Here's an idea, but then I've probably already mentioned it: using objects as lights. A neon sign for example...Oh well, I'm off to work on my spider... EHW ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 54 Sat Jun 13, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 03:18 EDT Lee, You mean JAWS the movie right?:-) How about the part where he slides down the end of the boat and kicks like crazy only to be skewed in half and draged into the water screaming. Always liked that scene! The Ocean is a pretty safe area for creation. I've heard it's estimated over a million unknown species swim in it's depths. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 55 Sat Jun 13, 1992 S.SCHAPER [Meneldil] at 12:10 EDT Those are called JIMsuits, and there is a counterpart for space exploration. They are very nice, but NASA is too hidebound to go with them. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 56 Thu Jul 09, 1992 J.ROY18 [Jonathan] at 03:00 EDT Is there anything availible yet that can allow animations (or still frames) too look as if they are rendered under water? You know... That fuzzy/blurry type of look.... ----- (It doesn't look like I'll ever own any of this software now...) Summer's quickly coming to an end, didn't find a job, and on top of all of this, my mother had cancer again, and missed alot of work. We still haven't recovered financially from the last time! Oh well... Maybe I'll take a student loan in 5 years and buy a Falcon/UNIX setup to use while working on my Masters Thesis (grin). ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 57 Fri Jul 10, 1992 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 14:47 EDT Jonathan, For the blurry water here is an idea, though I'm not sure if it will work or not. Create some type of a cube-like object with lots of faces on one side and make that side into an irregular surface (like what a fractal mountain generator would do). Place all the normal objects in the animation inside this cube and the camera outside the cube and position the cube so that the camera is pointing at this rough surface. In Prism Render assign a water surface to the cube (and make sure its smoothed). Because of light refraction at the air- water interface this should give a distorted image with a blue cast. It might even darken items further away. (I'm not sure if depth attenuation effects are handled or not.) It won't 'blur' the image though. You also won't get any caustics (light shimmers) from the water bending the incomming lightsources either. And it might not work at all! I can't tie up my machine long enough to find out! The other John @ Lexicor ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 58 Sat Jul 11, 1992 J.ROY18 [Jonathan] at 01:15 EDT I don't even have a machine to tie up! Oh well. (grin) I saw some underwater effects on a NewTek demo tape once, and was really really impressed. Should I have the ability to do that (And the time to use my friend's TT) I'd like to make some animations with under-water mechs ala Mobile Suit Gundum, and other anime films. (grin) ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 59 Sat Jul 11, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 01:29 EDT I think Lee as animations of dolphins and now one with Jellyfish maybe he can let us know how it was done. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 60 Sun Jul 12, 1992 LEXICOR [Lee] at 02:14 EDT yes they are finishe. But in True color. They are and the current version of the video demo. This video is now 1Hr and 15 minutes or so. There will be a new one around the end of the month which will includ animations that have been transported to SGI for rendering. LEXICOR ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 61 Thu Jul 23, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 00:44 EDT Ringo, Did you ask me something about the spider? I saw it go by when I did my Autopass but my Aladdin trashed out and I lost about half the messages. I think my copies got corrupted the other day. I had a slight Hard Drive directory problem. I've been trying to download another copy for about 1/2 an hour... ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 62 Thu Jul 23, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 15:34 EDT Sure Joey. Do you think the Spider is a nightmare project and do you like all of the nice details that are in the blue-print. Ringo. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 63 Thu Jul 23, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 19:17 EDT Yeap, it's a nightmare project.:-) Speaking from an artist point of view the thing is amazing! I love all the little parts and pieces along with the spear like flexable tips on the legs. I'd like to use those myself.:-) Excellent movie creature! I can see where people might be easily torn to shreads and dropped in a bloody pulpy mass. Still spasmimg as the fall down the side of an electrical tower.:-) Mechanically speaking... I don't think it'll work.:-) A lot of the interlinked pivoting points are interesting but they put a lot of stress in the joints. I like the idea of placing the actuaters into the individual leg parts. Thus amputation isn't a problem.:-) I see a lot of problems for the spider with it's cables running on the outside and the placement of it's radar system. Basically, you could shoot foam on it, shut down it's vision then either turn it over on its back or climb on top and cut the 5 main hoses to its legs. Both would priovide a lot of entertainment for the viewer!:-) Especially with a couple truckloads of drunk rednecks.:-) If they could be killed fairly easily I would suggest having the spiders group together against the people. Not only that but give them a limited intelligence and communication amoung themselves plus make some of them help people. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 64 Thu Jul 23, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 23:04 EDT Joey. The spider project is also a good learning project for students. The blue print is to be use as a reference for the creation of the Spider or spiders students should do their own version of the spiders. As Lee said as the project develops the animator/artists needs to communicate with the customers so that the project gets the proper look. The movie plot is under development, I think. What we know is that this creatures attack at night un-notice, etc. I think I will post one of the lectures in the class Category for more information. John Cole is going to upload Lecture #12 along with the 300 DPI scan sample of the spider. P.S. note that the spider in the drawing has only 5 legs and students need to create spiders with 6 legs. Later! Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 65 Tue Jul 28, 1992 B.KOLINS1 [Brian] at 03:00 EDT Hi there... Does anyone know what the sequence of leg motion is for a common ordinary 6- legged insect? The one's I've managed to capture have not been entirely cooperative in posing for me. Thanks... BK ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 66 Tue Jul 28, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 18:30 EDT Brian, do you have a Camcorder? I dropped mine into Macro mode one time and filmed every creature I could find out in the woods. Like a moron I taped a movie over it... sheesh. Then just pause it and look through one frame at a time. Possible something big and slow. Maybe an old movie with a giant spider in it.:-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 67 Tue Jul 28, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 23:27 EDT ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 68 Thu Jul 30, 1992 LEXICOR [Lee] at 03:18 EDT Brian, yes it is very simple...the animal has three legs on each side. so start with ither side and select the two outside legs then on the oppisit side pick the center leg. These will become one set of legs. Now this leaves the same pattern for the remaining legs. To walk simply lift either set of three...this will leav the animale standing on a tripod. lean the body forward with out moving the standing leg contact point with the ground. next lower the raised "tripod os legs", then lift the first set or "Tripod" and again lean the body forward. This will give you a simple forward walk. to turn right or left just shift the raised legs to the proper new position...ie reight or left. hope this helps you. Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 69 Sat Aug 01, 1992 B.KOLINS1 [Brian] at 02:33 EDT Thanks Lee... I'll certainly give it a try. Curious though -- by leaning the body foward, it implies the little critter will having a bobbing motion when it crawls? BK ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 70 Sat Aug 01, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 20:39 EDT Brian, spiders probably counter act the bobbing by moving the legs at the body joint. Try keeping the body at one height while moving at a constant speed then adjust the legs to hit the ground. Three of the legs will be on the ground pivoting in one spot while the other three will travel forward up and down. At one point all 6 legs should be on the ground. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 71 Sun Aug 02, 1992 B.KOLINS1 [Brian] at 02:22 EDT Thanks Joey... Since Lee's post I attempted a maiden voyage based on his suggestion -- 100 frames, scurrying across the kitchen floor. The leg motion works fine, it's just necessary now to match the distance travelled with the leg movement -- so it doesn't appear as though the critter's simply gliding across a fresh wax job. Within the cycle, each set of 3 legs has 3 positions with a morph accompanying each -- for a total of 6 frames per side -- times 2 for both sides, that means 12 frames per 1 step! 100 frames isn't enough for the entire trip across the floor. It looks like he's sliding on casters :) ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 72 Sun Aug 02, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 14:25 EDT Drian. I downloaded your truffles animation and it is very good! Very good use of the Morph effect. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 73 Sun Aug 02, 1992 B.KOLINS1 [Brian] at 23:25 EDT Thanks Ringo... Yer too kind. Have you seen the original 3D Studio demo I cop'd the idea from? You'd appreciate the humour in it if you had. --- although I really just used it as an objective (much like a homework assignment) to see of I could recreate, using Chronos, something that had an impact on me that was created on another platform -- and in this case, using a software package retailing for 3 grand on system that couldn't have been less than a 386 PC. It has certainly reafirmed how glad I am to be on the Lexicor bandwagon, and certainly learned a great deal in the process. One question though... I don't believe I noticed in the manual any explanation for the effect of Smoothing within a Cycle list. I would have thought that one just gains more smoothness by either adding more objects or morphs to a Cycle List. Am I missing the point? BTW --- Would you recommend the "Computer Wars" animation? ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 74 Mon Aug 03, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 03:15 EDT Brian, Glad to help! I have trouble using just leg cycles. I have better luck setting up the entire spider in sculpt. A poor way of doing it I know but the program handles the 3D shapes a lot faster. I use the same method but I morph the whole thing instead of each leg piece. I'm hoping eventually there will be a Mouse driven program for building jointed objects. Where you can assign joints, range of motion and then place handles for moving the objects relative to one another. Let the computer do the work, thats my thinking.:-) You might try setting your animation up so the spider ends up in a loop. That way you can do just 12 frames and let it continue forever. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 75 Mon Aug 03, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 08:46 EDT Brian. The computer wars animation is very good it has sounds and Digitatize voices. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 76 Fri Aug 07, 1992 DHAMM [DAVE HAMM] at 03:18 EDT Today I picked up a Laserdisc called The Mind's Eye it's a computer animation in CAV Format. Only played it once at regular speed it's 40 min. long. Has some neat stuff in it. Just thought some of you animation buffs might be interested. - David Hamm ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 77 Wed Aug 26, 1992 LEXICOR [Lee] at 04:34 EDT Ringo: you need to take the following information and add it some where in the newsletter/papper, also make sure that Cole18 post a correctly spelled version on genie general bullition board. here is the list of some "Developers tools and test equipment" we will be selling at the Glendale show as our "Developers Surplus Sale" all items work and are sold "AS IS" payment is by VISA/MASTER Card or Cash...sorry no personal checks. 1. Video camera system, includes 5 High quality lenses, Model ITC -400 this is an IKEGANI high res monochrome camera. Also included is an RGB Kodak wratten color filter system w/Computer eyes with all software. You can use this system to make great full color image captures. 2. Z-RAM 4MEG upgrade system with 4 Megs of ram installed this is a complete system with all original software and hardware. 3. ParSec system: complete high res Graphics workstation comes with developer docks, Da Vinci paint programs and C-com- piler. Can be run with any 520 to mega ST computer. } 7 2 b 4. Albert 1024X768 VME color card w/Prism Paint 1.5B that was # 4. 5. Turbo 16 accelorator withadditional OEM 68000 CPU 6. Very rear TT-FAST RAM card populated with Standard SIMMS RAM chips, This is the removable type card. 7. TT 8 Meg ST RAM or system card. 8. Delux Video dubbing and Enhancement system with Gold connectors. 9. Video Link "Detailer" used to clean up final output video signals, uses split screen. 10. CP-10 RGB to NTSC/Y-C converter. This is a very high quality device, same as advertised by RIO computers. 11. OmniTrac Video Audio mixing system, used to add your own sound tracks, music, narration in cludes Microphone. 12. Video ED/it 2" Mini-editor, has enhanced video and sound mixing, one touch auto fader, two chanel vidoe switcher, microphone ect. 13. SGS NET networking system for the atari, uses medi ports. will work on any 520 to Mega ST computer. 14. Mouse master 15. 3 leonardo VGA color cards, 512X512X16,000,000. colors VME only- recommended for TT's. comes with Hackers docks, source and system drivers. These few cards are over runs on the final non Video version. very good for any one interested in doing their own 24 BIT color applications. Will display on any VGA monitor. we will publish prices just befor the show. With much of this stuff it is possible using standard 520/1040 or mega computers, very acceptable multi media work. All items work and were used breifily by LEXICOR developers to audit present day home quality video and computer/video systems in the low end market. Lexicor is selling these items only because Lexicor has no furthor use for them at this time. Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 78 Tue Oct 13, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 05:09 EDT Lee, What sort of technique do you use on the GIF files I keep downloading? I can't seem to do anything in color but when I look at yours magnified I can't really see a basic technique. I try using Airbrush and such for skys but I don't get the well blended smoothness yours seems to have. The randomness of the pixel colors is what throws me off. You have colors together I would never use but the look great the way you do it.:-) One thing I did notice in Prism Paint is the serious need for the ability to choose the screen color like you can with the space bar. I was trying the other night and even if you leave and a choose a color the Magnify Palette is still set to the same one. If it's possible let me know I haven't figured it out yet.:-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 79 Wed Oct 14, 1992 LEXICOR [Lee] at 04:11 EDT Oh...my a real artistic question...well er la..ma lets see? This is for Joey: all els can read over his shoulder. First let me comment that Joey has sent me some samples and his work is very good to start with. next let me just pat my self on the head here for a moment and comment that I began actually selling animal sketches at about 11 and put my self through college with zoo animal paintings I did right at the zoo, Then I began air- brush and acrylic brush book covers for Bantom and the like, this lasted nearily 30 years, on an on and off basis, so much of what follows is stuff based on a lifetime of practical work and not book theory or software tool limitations. Depending on which version of Ppaint you have and which resolution card you are using the beginig of a work starts with a few pencil sketches on "real paper". then I "already know" which colors I am going to use for the "work" I generally use a medium grey color (256 palette) as a sketch and transfer the general idea to the computer with the drawing tablet. I save it out then do some color testing with this file saving each test for later. If for instance I am going to have a cloudy sky I will do a "basic grey fill {solid} as an underpainting" then begin adding what ever...clouds, I always do a light source patch on the screen which I then use to make a "blend" with the sky underpainting color....eg..yellow to grey! next I use the blended color palette to paint in the details, usully 1 or 2 pixel brush. I use this same basic process for each main element of the work. When all the elements are more or less done I will often just sit about 6 to 8 feet from the monitor and just look at the screen. aftere a while I can see all of the "mistakes" in color and compasition, these are corrected one by one using the blend editor to get better and better blends from element to element of the work. One of the hardest parts is to sit real close to the screen and work. I like the tablet and long cable. I often sit 34 feet away with feet up, coffee or booze handy, music on and just a 15 watt lamp on the tablet or keyboard. Try scanning your eyes first in a "Z" pattern on the screen then in a counter clock wise circle then back to the "Z". You will be surprised how the colors change! There is a very important lesson here...you don't see color the way you think you do and with the computer set up as it is it is very hard to break out of the numeric color approach. If you study the "find palette" pages in Ppaint in 256 mode you will notice that each of the small individual color squars of the color pages seem to have a slight color gradient with in the squar, or if you have my Ithyo- Metalicous you will also see this effect. Now we know that the whole squar/piexl is just a single color but it looks shaded, this is because your eyes see only a part of the spectrum, and your mind/brain calculates the rest. because of this when you see colors in certin ranges they look very different once the pixels apparent size falls below 400X400. This is why I use such a wid range of colors in a work and why the "seem" as smooth as they do. Try some color matching and blending projects to get the Idea... Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 80 Wed Oct 14, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 20:00 EDT Thanks Lee! Sounds like experience and time might be my missing factors at this point. I can see where sketching a lot of animals would be a big help. I don't know if I rememeber how to use a pencil and sketch things, however.:-) Now I've gotten attached to Phoenix 512!:-) Something about making a model and having it shaded for you just appeals to me. I'm little too impatient for creating a screen image by hand. I'd still like to create some interesting GIF files however. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 81 Fri Oct 16, 1992 LEXICOR [Lee] at 06:44 EDT You shold reconsider...think of it you could map a neat Lion or some such on to the sheild if you first "sketched" it. Or patterns for the Helm, ect and so on! Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 82 Fri Oct 16, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 20:00 EDT Lee, Your right, I'm just lazy.:-) Actually, I used to play Infocom games without mapping. It takes longer but it's good exercise for the imagination. Possible where I picked up that bad habit.:-) Anyone watching the debates?:-) The debates are bad enough but it's funny how many interpretations come out of what each person says. For one thing you have the actual debate, it's the one piece of the puzzle thats constant. Now everyone they interview has watched the same debate in it's constant state but all their opinions are different.:-) I've noticed that whoever their for is usually who won the debate in their eyes. One thing Ross mentioned, I thought was a good idea is the electronic town hall. I think we've reached the point where we could have a TV channel to view the government and vote using the phone. 1-900-GET-EVEN...:) Then the senator or whatever from that state would have to vote according to the peoples choice no matter what they felt. Not only that but the job would get done the way the people wanted it done. I'm pretty sure no one would be voting themselves pay raises.:-) I bet that scares a lot of individuals in Washington. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 83 Wed Nov 04, 1992 LEXICOR [Lee] at 03:28 EST NOTICE: LEXICOR WILL BE CLOSED FROM NOV 21st TO DEC 11th FOR SOME MUCH NEEDED RR. If you need assistance or have a question please refer it here and Ringo or J. Cole18 will help you. Thank You LEXICOR ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 84 Wed Nov 04, 1992 POTECHIN [Nathan @ DMC] at 09:36 EST From Nov. 21st? Hmmm, you coming to Comdex for a few days Lee?:-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 85 Wed Nov 04, 1992 J.COLE18 [John Cole] at 22:34 EST Not unless the moved Comdex to the bahamas, Nathan :-) Not that thats a bad idea :-) John @ Lexicor ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 86 Thu Nov 05, 1992 S.SCHAPER [Meneldil] at 00:52 EST Lexicor, Take a look at the current Starlog Spectacular to see what is being done on linked Toasters for the new TV series Babylon 5. For inspiration. See if you can't do better and faster on SGI's with your software. This is the up-and-coming manner for doing FX for movies and TV shows. Don't miss this market. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 87 Thu Nov 05, 1992 LEXICOR [Lee] at 02:26 EST Nathan: a minor correction to Cole's comment...I will be spending my time in the Virgin Islands, St Thomas and St John with some sailing trips here and their. I will be leaving on the 14th or as soon there aftere as I can. S.Schaper, I know all about the Babalon-5 project and the linked Amiga systems.....the fact is that to render at the same speed as the SGI systems they would need 30 Amiga's with Toasters. And their is already many very powerful software applications which do that sorta of work now! BTW you Might try and read the credits very carfully! you might see a "NAME" you know :-) "you can just never tell!" Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 88 Thu Nov 05, 1992 POTECHIN [Nathan @ DMC] at 13:11 EST Ah Lee, I'm jealous! ;-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 89 Fri Nov 06, 1992 S.SCHAPER [Meneldil] at 01:33 EST Lee, I will do that. I participate in the Babylon 5 Cat over in the SFRT2, where the author and producer hangs out and even discusses the technical issues. Looking at the screen shots in the Starlog Spectacular I can't see that the design phase has anything over CyberSculpt. And from what I've heard of your key-frame animator, that is at least as good as well. The industry is sitting up and taking notice, now that the preview videos are making the rounds at the SF conventions. So more than just Foundation Imaging might be interested. Go get that market! Good luck!, as they say. I am going to four megs in the next couple months. I'd be interested what that will open up to me with your products. (I gotta get me an SGI) ;-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 90 Fri Nov 06, 1992 LEXICOR [Lee] at 02:26 EST S.S, Actually once you get to any level in a monitor that allows the kind of object creations that is possible in Csculpt ot Imagine, or softImage, it all becomes the power in the user and not platform or MEGs or any of that sort of thing. You may have seen our video which shows some of the simplest and some of the most complex objects, all done with about the same level of software. Now that DTV and animation has arrived at our desks it's all a matter of fallowing what you like most. Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 91 Sat Nov 07, 1992 S.SCHAPER [Meneldil] at 14:07 EST Lee, I haven't seen the video. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 92 Sat Nov 07, 1992 J.ROY18 [Jonathan] at 22:22 EST S.SCHAPER, Forget Starlog. Just go to the SFRT and talk to the creator of the show. :) He's a nice guy, and has uploaded lots of info (And some GIF pictures) about Babylon 5 to the library. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 93 Tue Nov 10, 1992 S.SCHAPER [Meneldil] at 20:43 EST Jonathon, I'm already over there. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 94 Sun Nov 29, 1992 V.HUTZ [Vern] at 17:44 EST There is a graphics and animation show in NY citynext weekend will Atari, Lexicore, and/or Falcon be represented there that you know of? It must be a pretty big show from the size of it's location! Does anyone know anything about it? I will be going, what should I look for? ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 95 Mon Nov 30, 1992 B.KOLINS1 [Brian] at 05:19 EST Vern, You'll certainly enjoy yourself -- I've been going there the past 3 years. Also had a booth a couple of times with a company I used to work for. So I can tell you that it's *extremely* expensive to participate. I haven't seen Lexicor yet(for shame), and since Lee's on holiday it's not likely they'll be there this year. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 96 Mon Nov 30, 1992 V.HUTZ at 20:53 EST Thanks, Brian. Seems like just the place for Atari and/or Lexicore to show off a little! I'm very excited, is it something which can be seen in one day? and are there handouts for the public? Do you have to be somebody to get in? Thanks ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 97 Tue Dec 01, 1992 B.KOLINS1 [Brian] at 01:35 EST If I'm not mistaken the emphasis is more on presentation graphics -- slides & print. Athough animation is a part of it. I think you can certainly knock off seeing all in one day. I don't know what the admission charge is, I've never paid. There's usually plenty comps going 'round to folks in the industry -- haven't secured one for myself so I'll probably be paying. But if you know someone... It's always been predominately PC & Mac. I've never seen Amiga there, let alone any offerings from Atari. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 98 Tue Dec 01, 1992 K.LEE29 [Kim Lee] at 03:40 EST Vern, Thanks for notification of the show in NY, I would really like to attend but where did you hear about it and do you know ANYTHING about it? (If you're going I would imagine you do) I haven't a clue as to anthing about it. I'll check the NY Times tommorrow in the computer section. Let us know if you find out location, times, or phone #. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 99 Tue Dec 01, 1992 B.KOLINS1 [Brian] at 04:47 EST Kim, The show's at the Jacob Javitz Convention Center. Call 203-852-0500 ext. 234 for info. It was posted in the recent Z-Net Atari online newsletter -- of all places. It's Dec. 4th-6th, and showtimes are usually 10-5(4th&5th) and 10- 4(6th) ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 100 Wed Dec 02, 1992 V.HUTZ at 22:55 EST Thanks for your help and information,Brian. See you there! ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 101 Thu Dec 10, 1992 AEO.3 [Lyre] at 22:41 EST Greetings All! The other day while at the news stand, I ran across a magazine that I thought I would mention here. I do so simply because in the RTC the other night I remember someone asking about 3D modelling / desktop video magazines. I purchased the priemere issue, Spring 1993, just the other day so it should still be available. I have not been able to read any of the articles, but a quick scan showed me that it supports the Mac, IBM and Amiga platforms. No mention of Atari that I've seen; however, I have not been able to read any of it as of yet. The magazine states that it is to be produced quarterly. Some of the artwork / layout is a bit simple, but I get the impression that the publisher is not a big corporation. This is not to say it is "amatuer" - simply that it needs more work, visually. Cover price is $3.50; 84 pages (front cover, interior pages and back cover). No subscription information provided. Contact Info in case anyone is interested: Computer Video 4880 Market Street Ventura, CA 93003 Published by Miller Magazines, Inc. I hope that the person asking this the other night sees it. I also hope that it helps. How about some of you Lexicor product users tell Computer Video about the company that is supporting your 3D efforts? Lyre Odesar, ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 102 Thu Dec 10, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 22:59 EST Lyre, Thanks for the post, we will send the proper information to the magazine. You may also use the Newsletter topic for posting any Graphics news or suggestions. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 103 Sat Dec 12, 1992 P.GRECI1 [MIDGARD] at 14:43 EST Vern--->>> If yer talking about Photo 92 at the Javitz Center I don't think Lexicor would be there and I SERIOUSLY doubt Atari would be there. Brian Kolins--->>> If you guys are refferring to Photo 92/Viscomm Amiga was there with 1 booth(Amigo Biz machines in Long Island) they were mostly showing the Video Toaster only.Silicon Graphics had a booth there,Alias Animator had a Booth.Adobe was showing off their Non linear Editing goodies for the MAC,Kodak was showing Photo CD equipment etc.Twas a Nice Show but Exhausting the Javitz center is soo large and there was so much to see.it was Predominantly Photography based show tho. Kim Lee---->>>> Whassup Bro?Anytime you want to go to a show lemme know as I usually get complimentary tickets to em at my Studio(Midgard Graphics).I went to Photo 92 and it was Cool tho they raped you at the food places but Show prices on Equipment was GREAT.I subbed to 2 Mags there at special show prices.Pixel Visions and Communication Arts.Both were quite nice. Lyre--->>> You might check out Pixel Visions for 3D info too.I imagine they would have Lexicor info in their simpy because they cover the SGI platform alot. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 104 Sat Dec 12, 1992 AEO.3 [Lyre] at 19:30 EST Midgard, Thanks for telling me about Pixel Visions. However, it would be easier to contact them with an address. ;) Lyre ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 105 Sun Dec 13, 1992 P.GRECI1 [MIDGARD] at 18:02 EST Lyre---->>> ooops,sorry bout that. Pixel Vision PO BOX 1138 Madison Square Station NY NY 10159 ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 106 Tue Dec 29, 1992 J.ROY18 [Jonathan] at 03:22 EST Maybe Lexicor will have a killer IRIS setup at Siggraph 94 in Orlando. :D I'll be there for the duration, soaking in graphics algorithms like a sponge. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 107 Sun Jan 03, 1993 J.WENZEL2 [ J R ] at 06:49 EST Jonathan, Don't forget to bring a good supply of asprin... Those lectures and workshops are INVOLVED. ( Not to mention mucho $$$ ) L8er J R ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 109 Wed Feb 24, 1993 S.SCHAPER [Meneldil] at 01:16 EST Lee, I freeze-framed through the credits. I saw neither Lee Seilor, nor Ringo Montfort, nor Lexicor. What should I have looked for? ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 110 Wed Feb 24, 1993 LEXICOR [Lee] at 05:01 EST See above message! You did not see a full credits listing, which is common in TV shows. Unlike the movies you rearily see a full credits list- ing like you do at the movies. I was hoping that that for the premier thay might make an exception. They did in the latest Star Trek spin-off. well I guess they mystry continues....... Later Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 111 Thu Feb 25, 1993 S.SCHAPER [Meneldil] at 00:56 EST Lee, I think I did see all the credits. But perhaps I don't know all the corporate names you might be working under? ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 112 Thu Feb 25, 1993 LEXICOR [Lee] at 01:54 EST Nope.......you did not see even half the credits, but you are on the right track! now the question is..? OOPs almost spilled the beans...........Snicker...Snicker...:-) Just imagine some recient animation samples...like...maby.... Computer animation clases.......legs......anthropomorphic machine designs........Does the term..."Xenomoprf" ring a bell..? Did you know that lexicor is selling a program titled "Xenomorf". see .....I new you missed that one! Haah Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 113 Sat Feb 27, 1993 S.SCHAPER [Meneldil] at 01:03 EST Xenomorf, Hadn't heard of it. What does it do and what does it run on? I saw plenty of animation and graphics firms mentioned, including the last bit about Synthetic Worlds, but I did not see Lee, Ringo or Lexicor. It _looked_ like all of the credits. The stations are required by law apparently to show all the credits JMS was going to get on the case of some stations that didn't. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 114 Sat Feb 27, 1993 LEXICOR [Lee] at 04:07 EST S.S, it's not a case of deliberate deleating in every case. Generally the net does show all credits offered, but you will often see local channels steping on the tail of net shows to get a few seconds of local promos. In addition I have rearly seen full credits on TV shows, just try watching a rented film and look at all the various credits listed, then aompare that with say any weekely series, you wont see even half the credits that you saw for the film. yet it takes just as many people and the same size unit to do a TV series (which is shot on film) as it does for the film. I am not complaining just pointing out that the surprise I suggest might be in store could be understood better if there were full credits. Again I need to re peart that "I did not say I would be mentioned in the credits" or at least not to expect that. See messages above for more info!" Lee.............Snicker....Snicker! ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 115 Sat Feb 27, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 10:52 EST Xenomorf the program it renders 3D2 files with marble, wood, image mapping using SPC, GIF, TGA. Runs on a ST/STe/TT/Falcon computers. Has animation support using Cyber-Control etc. It sounds like Phoenix Object Render because it is Phoenix! It is the German version of the program. So in Germany look for Xenomorf. Now back to our Observation topic. A local TV station show Bladerunner last night. I think the movie looks even better now than the first time it was release. The special effects are very well done. Later. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 116 Sun Feb 28, 1993 P.GRECI1 [MIDGARD] at 23:23 EST Meneldil----->>>> Whats Xenomorf????? Is it a Morphing prg for the Atari? If so I have to tell my Buds. Thanx in advance for the info. Ringo--->>> Thanx for answering my question about Xenomorf. I was all excited thinking I could tell my Buddy Barry Summer(he's still waiting for his Pheonix 512 Lee) that there was a 2D morphing prg for the Atari. He's very jealous of my Cinemorph and Imagemaster. Oh Well. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 117 Mon Mar 01, 1993 LEXICOR [Lee] at 02:46 EST Barry should have it by now so he ain't jello-us any more. Maby we will come up with an Alien builder for the US and call it Xenomorph, which by the way is a real term..... maby one of us should come up with some interesting Xenomorphic animals for a release disk? Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 118 Tue Mar 02, 1993 E.WELLS at 00:02 EST Well, I just finished watching Babylon 5 tonight, and I must say that I was less than thrilled. It was fairly interesting (similarities between DS9 being what they were and put aside). While the make up efects were top notch, I don't think the computer graphics were all that they could have been. For what it is rumored that they spent of Toasters, they probably could have bought better hardware and built a few models and come in with a vastly reduced budget. The highlight of the set design was the doors. Most of the doors were very interesting. I noticed two spider ships and the texture mapping was impressive, if gave the ships a look that probably would not have been possible with models. (The next part has nothing to do with B5 or DS9, but It will no doubt be of interest) Has anyone seen the criterion collection laser disc version of "ALIENS"? If you get a chance, watch it! It's seventeen (17) minutes longer and is incredible. There is also 3 hours of production notes, story boards, and information about how many of the effects were produced. The alien creation segments are probably the most amazing. Also, it was interesting to learn what shortcuts were used to keep the budget down to half what it was rumored to be... and two last notes...In about 2 weeks are similar versionof the THE ABYSS will be released, restored to James Cameron's original cut of 2hrs 58mins. If you were a bit confused, this one will leave you with a new respect for the film (blame the studios for cutting it, not JC). Also, read the book, if they had shot camerons full script it wold have been more like 4 or 5 hours... EHW ps: there is also a similar version of Close Encounters you should check out... and finally, sorry that this is a bit off topic, but it does, in a round-a- bout way pertain to imagination... ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 119 Tue Mar 02, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 00:12 EST E.Wells. Yes! The special edition of the Abyss in now playing here in L.A. and it sounds very good. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 120 Tue Mar 02, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 01:48 EST E.WELLS, I don't think you can get off topic under this heading.:-) Are you refering to the Video Laser Disk versions of those films? I've wanted one of those players every since I saw a special on them! I never realized VD's included so much extra info on the disk. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 121 Tue Mar 02, 1993 LEXICOR [Lee] at 02:34 EST H.G, Go back and watch your disc again, look for a man about 50+ with dark hair with a bit of grey, in Poney tail, doing production sketches, might have "graney glasses on".....three guesses who that am! As I have alsways said here time and time again, there is often many more times work that goes into a good film, and which is often never seen, and in the same lite, many people who make substancial contributions which never get noted in the credits. here is a bit of triva...where was the shark "Bruce" built? answer: in the back of a Milk bottleing company just a few blocks east of the Orange county airport...... about imagination! this is the place to speak up! you never know when you might get a good Idea for a project or have a chance to offer something no one ever thought of befor. Speaking about B5 why do you think that there was not one single original story point or effect? no imagination, no place to share ideas no place to try something new. thats what this place is! Think of how it must have been in Socrties time when he gathered his students in a quite gardin and just talked about the wounders of the world they knew! This place is really a a gathering of some of the best creative minds of our time. Sound silly? or is it? Here you are free to express what ever you could possibly imagine and know that others who are touched by you may have had the same thoughts. here are just a few possible questions to ponder. 1. How would you visualize a craft that used black holes as motive power to cruze the universe? 2. How would you visualize the shape of the universe? is their a way to do this with observational powers, with out math? 3. Why are living things as we under stand the term living put to geather the way they are? Would living things from other parts of the universe be any different? what is wrong with most film and TV aliens? 4. What could you do with the animations tools you have to impress a professional film maker to consider you as possible talant? Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 122 Wed Mar 03, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 01:07 EST Lee, on the bits and pieces thing... I've noticed most movies follow the same plots or a combination of plots. Maybe it's just I've seen so many it's hard to see something entirely new. I wish some better ideas would make it to film. Good questions! 1. A sphere would be good shape to hold up under strong gravity. Even then you would have to use the very outer edge of the holes gravity. Thats if the people inside didn't compress into puss. I doubt anyone will every travel that way, it doesn't look look good on paper. An alternative source of travel would be more realistic. Of coarse you could cop out and just make something up seeing as it's a show.:-) The anit-gravity impulse drive modulator coupling device... or dylithium crystals.:-) 2. Don't know how you would do it without math but if it did explode from a single source it should be spherical in nature. You could possible get that from observing the sky and planets. The sphere seems to be a commonly used geometric shape throughout the universe. It could also be a flattened sphere do to rotational forces much like galaxies. 3. Most living things as we know them are products of there enviroment both pysically and brain ways. Most aliens would probably be related the same way to their own enviroment. The biggest problem I've noticed with aliens in some films is they speak english.:-) Outside that they never seem to fit any known enviroment. They have one covere in slime with a claw and a hand or some other parts that don't fit together. Star Trek seems to have a majority of them human shaped except for a bumb or two on there head. Probably a budget/time thing more then an actual flaw. 4. I wouldn't want too work for a proffesional... I usually do everything or nothing. If it's going to be done wrong, I want to do it myself.:-) I think thats a bad trait I picked up do to my enviroment (see 3).:-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 123 Wed Mar 03, 1993 AEO.3 [Lyre] at 18:48 EST Realm, Not to really side track the comment, but another reason that TV aliens are so close to humans in appearance is the time and effort involved with make-up. If a really exotic looking humanoid is created requiring several hours of make- up, the actor has to go through a lot of hassle. Now lets assume that this alien is supposed to be a regular on the show. Barring some kind of mask, that means the actor has to spend double the amount of time getting into and out of the make-up. Would you want to spend 5 hrs or more a day going through all that? Lyre 6:34 pm, March 3, 1993 ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 124 Wed Mar 03, 1993 P.GRECI1 [MIDGARD] at 18:52 EST Lee--->> I meant Barry Was jealous of Imagemaster and Cinemorph's 2D morphing abilities. Not of not having Pheonix 512(kinda redundant eh?) I hope he does have it as I've seen some nice GIF's and Targa images that he's done. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 125 Wed Mar 03, 1993 P.GRECI1 [MIDGARD] at 19:11 EST E Wells--->>> Guess you don't know that much about the Cost of Optical Compositing. The MAIN reason the Toaster's were used was due to COST SAVINGS. For Example some FX for Freejack were needed, Foundation did it for $10,000, the next lowest bid was $40,000 using Traditional methods. While the FX could Definitely have been improved, they were nice IMHO. The Acting was mediocre in parts but all in all a pretty good show. As to what they spent on Toasters, I believe they were "ON LOAN" from NewTek for Mention in the Credits/Publicity. Shoot over to SFRT2 and ask JM Straczynski directly. As to "BETTER" Hardware, what do YOU suggest? SGI's? They cost Considerably more than a Toaster and Don't include Decent 3D software. So add a MINBIMUM of $3000 to the price of using an SGI for this type of FX. Using the SGI would give better results I imagine but would have broke the budget. ******NOTE******* I'm probably Prejudice here since I am an Amiga Owner and soon to be an owner of a Toaster System Midgard Graphics 718-714-1423 ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 126 Wed Mar 03, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 23:52 EST Midgard, Don't feel too bad, most Atari owners are slightly prejudice the other way.:) Lyre, Thats why they get the big bucks!:-) Seriously though, I understand TV shows need to get the job done and done cheap. I'll cut them plenty of slack. On the other hand in the Star Trek movies the aliens are still humaniod shaped. The're bound to have the means to have something fairly complex. The Star Wars crew did a good job. I always liked Godzilla myself... They didn't even try to cover up the zipper.:-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 127 Thu Mar 04, 1993 E.WELLS at 01:53 EST Midgard, I yield to your superios knowledge [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [Dr [C [C [C [C [C [C [C [C [C [C. However, if the toasters were on loan I will agree, and only then. Still, I will hold to my review, the best part of the show was the interesting doors (bad grammar, sorry). EHW ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 128 Thu Mar 04, 1993 LEXICOR [Lee] at 04:15 EST OK lets see? Try thinking about the laws of nature a bit and think if you can visulize the shape of space...universe, it is quite possible to figure out if you are interested at all in science and all that. Almost every one who has ever spent much time in front of the TV has actually seen "exactly" what the existing universe looks like! lest see now the SFX, OK yes I know all about that and barring a total loan of Computer equipment, I still maintain that to do "quality" cad animations on an Amiga/Toaster et-al is more expensive than the SGI. Thats a fact the numbers don't lie here. But thats not really the point, the point was that we have two nearily identical programs that were done using the two ends of the creative specturm. I think that both teams did very well given the natural limitations of the medium and their gross lack of creative talent to do something new. You could always do some creative surgery, then the actors would not have to spen all morning in make up! The three best examples of aliens I liked and in some cases had some hand in were, Creature from the black lagoon, Tremors and Alien. if you for get the movie aspect and start considering alien morphology as a serious science, then you will see what I have tried to teach in our classes. The very best such attempts are based on taking the subject seriously and then apply your best efforts. No matter how silly the plot or stupit the acting is, it is the creations of alien life that stays with us. One of the best examples of actor and impossible machine was in the film Brazil! can any one guess what I am talking about.? Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 129 Thu Mar 04, 1993 E.WELLS at 19:16 EST Lee, Brazil? Possibly Sam's flying suit during his dreams? Brazil was an amazing film, one of my personal favorites... EHW ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 130 Thu Mar 04, 1993 AEO.3 [Lyre] at 19:20 EST Lee, Brazil!!!! ????? Egads, but that thing seemed like an acid trip with a few of the other more choice psychodelics thrown in! That is not to say that I disliked the various special effects, actors or their acting, etc. For the most part, I would say that taken singularly any particular facet of the movie was done very well. As a comment on society it also did alright (although it is a bit obscure). As a movie, in its entirety, I think that it was awkward and left the viewer wondering what the heck they had wasted good money on. Now, to answer your question in regards to "best examples of actor and impossible machine" I could think of two possibilities. The first (and my preference) is the angel wings. The other would be the shogun. Hmmm, wait a minute, weren't we inside the head of the guy based upon some kind of interface with a machine? I forget - it's been awhile. Lyre 5:22 pm, March 4, 1993 ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 131 Thu Mar 04, 1993 S.SCHAPER [Meneldil] at 22:15 EST E.Wells, Babylon 5 came in under budget and a quarter of the cost of the DS9 premier. Lee, I designed #1 back when I was in high school. Midgaard, As to the acting, they had a whole _two days_ to rehearse. Also the script was designed to lead in the series, not be an isolated movie months from the series start. JMS has uttered regrets to these matters, and I think they cover most of the real flaws in the film. BTW in the B5 category there is lots of discussion, and JMS listens to us, or appears to. SGI does have decent 3D software - from Lexicor. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 132 Thu Mar 04, 1993 MIKE.KELLER [ST Aladdin] at 23:41 EST >> You could always do some creative surgery, then the actors would not have to spen all morning in make up! In _The Making of Star Trek_ Gene Roddenberry recounted an episode of having Leonard Nimoy "on." Leonard was getting a bit depressed about his character on the show during the first season, compounded by having to spend so much time having his ears put on each day. Gene started chatting him up about how great the character was, how the ears really made the character, and maybe they could do plastic surgery to alter his ears for the run of the show, sure would make him stand out on the talk show circuit, and Leonard started saying "Hmmm, that might be interesting, you sure they could reverse the surgery later?" and it took awhile before he got the gag! mike.k ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 133 Thu Mar 04, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 23:59 EST I love Brazil! I always liked Monty Python though so the bizzare humor kind of sticks with you. I also liked his other flicks Barren Munchhousen(sp?) and the Fisher King. I think theres another one I forgot... Has anyone seen Pumpkin Head? I liked that creature... not that it looked anything like an Alien or was created by the same guy.:-) The underwater aliens in the Abyss where incredible! They looked to be based on the actual luminate underwater life in the deeper part of the oceans. I liked they way they crossed that concept with machines. The Dark Crystal had some really interesting puppet life also... ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 134 Fri Mar 05, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 00:28 EST I have seen Alien, Aliens but not the third one. What I like about the first and second films are many things. First the Alien is not one of thoses human like creatures from Start Trek. The Alien does take some of the human forms but not all of them. It only takes some of the characteristics of the host that gave it birth. Over all a very nice Alien creature. ---- JAWS I did like very much. So much that I went into reading alot about the Great Whites, the attacks at San Francisco in 19XX something very early. 7 attacks done by a Great white. They are very big creatures. Also seen books about the effects done for the shark or sharks I think they were 3 of them for different angles etc. I think Bruce was great. Love that shark but I don't think I would like to go swimming into the ocean right now. Never can tell if Bruce is just waiting out there. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 135 Fri Mar 05, 1993 E.WELLS at 01:43 EST Ringo, You missed Alien 3? Too bad, heh, heh. Actually, the movie stunk. The story was a mish mash of 3 different scripts. Cameron wanted to do number 4 if Ridley Scott would to 3. They got William GIbson (he writes interesting CYberspace books) to write it. His script expanded upon # 2 and actually gave the aliens characters rather than just evil thing lurking in the shadows. The producers didn't like it so they hired a second guy to write one without telling Gibson he was out. He was upset. They didn't like the third one either so they wrote their own from the two they had. Basically, they went for closure and the movie stunk. There was a bright spot however, the cinematography was top notch with some of the best steadicam effects around. The director (his name eludes me at the moment, but he has done mostly music videos and select scenes in the Empire strikes back (he's a friend of George Lucas by the way)), did a great job with what he had, but like I said, the script stunk. I would recomend that you check it out, just to see the Alien effects, they are a bit different than the first two and worth it... EHW FYI: while alien3 sucked wind here, it was a smash hit in France, go figure ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 136 Fri Mar 05, 1993 B.KOLINS1 [Brian] at 01:44 EST I have to admit to being more of a Darlek fan. At least they go against the typical T.V. alien grain where, no matter how odd the appearance of the species, they always have human-like lips :) ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 137 Fri Mar 05, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 03:20 EST Jabberwalky, Time bandits, Brazil, The Adventures of Barron Munchausen, and Fisher King are all Terry Gilliam films, not Monthy Python, although he used to be part of the troup. I think the man is brilliant. His artistic approach to film making is definitly more interesting than most "hollywood" hit formula scenerios. Brazil is one of my favorite but I think my all time favorite is Barron Munchausen. IT is a very romantic film and makes it obvious that if you let yourself get old.....you die! You might still be walking and talking but you dead buddy. I was verry proud of Gilliam when he made Fisher King. It is his most accessible movie for now since he set it in our times with characters (as kooky as they may be) we can believe. Why was I proud of him......because he still managed to put a knight on a horse in it! ;-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 138 Fri Mar 05, 1993 LEXICOR [Lee] at 05:35 EST Nice responce fellows: Well Brazil was my choice because of the suttle wing movements and the general realisum of the Ornithopter. That bit of attention to detail is what seporates the cream from the cow pie! Now as to B5, hay under bugget, late earily what ever just doenot cut the mustard. I just here excuses, there is simply no reason why the "actual" events have to be so poor. Who's fault is it they had only two days rehursal? I doubt that two years would have helped the acting or the story. If you have old material and tired crafts then you get what we saw. Explaining what all the problems were is like all the people who did not turn in their Lexicor Home work...They failed because they did not finish their work. End of story.....as Yoda observed in a critical point of Luke's training......... "that is why you failed".....eg Luke did not believe he could move the X wing from the waters..ergo he could not do it. bear in mind that some of you have created incredible animations with powerful energy, even though you are stuck with crapy resolutions and limited colors. You work rendered in the proper resolution and in 24 bit would surprise even your selves. Did we for get the premis? any one discovered what the universe looks like? any ideas as to weather it is possible to actually explore it in Human terms? that is with out Motavators and subcutanious space folding BS? Any one have a copy of the film "Cronos" 1953 Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 139 Fri Mar 05, 1993 ATARIAUSTRIA [J.Widi] at 11:25 EST Lee, the one thing that most impressed me in Brazil was the huge Samurai fighter that seemed to be entirely composed of printed circuits. Is that what You meant? My favorite aliens are: the 'waterface' from 'Abyss', the embryonic baby from 'Eraserhead' and the invisible monster from 'Forbidden Planet' (shamelessly copied in 'Supergirl'). Must see if my local videostore carries a copy of 'Tremors', never seen that one. -Johannes ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 140 Fri Mar 05, 1993 P.GRECI1 [MIDGARD] at 18:34 EST Meneldil---->>> I never said the SGI didn't have good 3D software I merely said that to get DECENT 3D software for the SGI you have to spend at LEAST $3000 which is $1000 more than I can buy the Video Toaster Card for. I've seen some real nice software for the SGI from Electrogig and Xaos but the prices are Quite High. E.Wells---->>> Believe it or not I'm one of the few people that actually liked Aliens 3. I guess after hearing so much NEGATIVE about the flick I wasn't expecting much so when I got it on Laser Disk I was shocked that I liked it. I prefer the first 2 more but # 3 wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. Lee---->>> I believe Cronos the movie is available on Laser Disc. as to B5 I enjoyed it. Maybe it's just because of the CGI..... I did hate the Commander but then again I also hate Sisko on DS9 they both seem like Marionette's. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 141 Fri Mar 05, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 19:04 EST A lot of effects really dazzle us the first time we see them. I guess the combination of realism with the unexpected really does something to our senses. When there boched, we usually just laugh. Like the Godzilla zipper thing. I agree with Joey though, I like that too. It has it's own charm. One of my all time favorites is in the Adventures of Baron Munchausen when Eric Idle (forget the name of the character) chases the bullet out of the gun. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 142 Sat Mar 06, 1993 S.SCHAPER [Meneldil] at 00:59 EST Lee, I take it that you did not like Babylon 5. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 143 Sat Mar 06, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 02:27 EST See Flat, I knew it wasn't Monty but I couldn't remember how to spell Gilliam, thanks!:-) I forgot about Jabberwalky and Time Bandits. Erik the Viking was a good one too... and yes thats where Erik the wooden Viking got his name. I liked the Fisher King and Aliens 3. I thought the alien in 3 was dog like because of it's birth from the dog. The idea of it containing some of the genetics from it's host was rather interesting. It did have some nice photography. I would guess the universe is spherical in nature if it did come from an explosion. It would be logical to assume it expanded outward from a single point. I also thought it was the size of a pin head at birth... rather dense. Which means it's mostly made of space at this size. However infinities an awfull big place for such tiny creatures to make assumptions of that nature. We're not exactly that far from throwing rocks at the moon. The only way I can see to explore the universe in current human terms is via telescope. Even then your not seeing whats actually there but light millions of years old. Hmm... guess that proves time travel is possible.:-) Our best bet would be Mars from an actually exploration via ship point of view. Possible find some fossils in the river beds. You could cryogenically freeze people in solid spheres and shoot them toward a planet from a rail gun. They can theoritically launch objects 3 times the speed of light. You need somebody intelligent enough to thaw them out at the other end though.:-) Solve the DNA problem and human degeneration won't be a factor in space travel. Imaginations the cheapest route for the individual... ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 144 Sat Mar 06, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 04:14 EST REALM, I didnt' see Erik the Viking......that was not Monthy Python or Gilliam. I don't know who did it but I know Eric Idle is in it. It's not available at our video store and I missed the theater run. Alien Three: Put me up as another one who liked this movie. The suspense was almost as good as the first one. I had to overlook how the second creature might have goten in the pod though. As for Alien Two....I hated it. It was a Rambo extravaganza. I never got over how many times she said she wasn't going near that planet and first thing she does when she gets there.......flies down with the boys! sheeesh..... The Aliens lair with the queen and workers was a real piece of art though I must say. The Universe: If I go with my gut instinct I would say it is Egg shaped. All life seems to start from an egg. If you look at a solar system it is seems squashed ....there must be pressure commin from somewhere. The universe definitly has a theme and everything repeats. I'm not very good at physics but.....everything turns...starting with the atom ....the earth, the galaxies , and on and on....trees are big at the bottom small at top....just like sound, another rotation, cycle, bass tones are big long wavelenghts....and high pitched tones are tiny short wavelenghts. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 145 Sat Mar 06, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 11:44 EST Lee, Is your book "Building Beings, Creating Creatures, and Doing Dinosaurs" still in print. I'd like to get it. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 146 Sat Mar 06, 1993 AEO.3 [Lyre] at 14:12 EST See Flat, I agree, Barron Munchausen was fantastic. While being totally absurd and outlandish, somehow all the zanyness seemed appropriate. Not once "jarring" the viewer out of enjoying the film because it had some scene/character snafu that seemed unbelievable. Which is really odd since it was *all* unbelievable! Realm, > Hmm... guess that proves time travel is possible.:-) Oh my. Yes it is definitely possible, but I won't get into that here. Is off the subject. On the other hand, I left what I thought was a pretty darn good reason for why it would not be =FEASABLE= in another RT. At least, not at our present stage. Lyre 1:08 pm, March 6, 1993 ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 147 Sat Mar 06, 1993 N.FRAGA at 14:44 EST Has anyone ever read the RoboTech books/comics or animation series? They had some pretty good descriptions of alien life forms, from the one-time peacefule Invid, to those giant warrior feared throughout the galaxy. How their battle cruiser could actually heal themselves. I read all 18 books! Jack McKinney did a good job on these. Upto the description of the Regis ( queen of the Invid, I think) was just great. They had the ability to transform themselves into what ever creature they wanted to be. Did someone around here have a 3D2 file on a Verytik (spelling?) fighter, please upload it, I'd like to have it. How about the RAMA series of books by Arthur C. Clarke? It's about a giant tube like spaceship, that travels throughout the universe picking up any kind of alien/creature it can lure, brining them to a 'way station' I'm not giving a good description, as it's been a year and a half since I had read the third book in the series, and a fourth will be coming Fall '93. I just thought I'd share that you guys since a lot of alien movie 'stars' are being talked about, and was thinking 'doesn't any read anymore?' :-) Space Oddysey 2061 was good, but a mountain sized diamond????????? Norm. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 148 Sat Mar 06, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 16:36 EST Lyre, The Adventures of Barron......was not absurd. It is a beautifully poetic image of the sillyness of war. The stupidily human reasons that start them, and the often inhuman ways that people make a business, or run economies, with wars. It is also a beautiful statement of how everything is possible if you believe. The only reasons people don't achieve is because they tell themselves "I could never do that" Perhaps you have met some very successful person that you have reflected ..."he's so stupid i wonder how come he's gotten where he is" .....simple.....He thought he could.....and he did! Brazil, does anyone share my opinion that Brazil's setting would indicate that Germany has won the second world war. (in the movie that is) ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 149 Sat Mar 06, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 19:20 EST Lyre, This if for Observations, Imagination etc topic. So lets observe and imagine that "IS" topic related. I want to know how the Transporters work. is that part of the traveling by light idea? Is that what a wormhole does? Work that one out in a future animation. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 150 Sat Mar 06, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 20:10 EST N.Fraga The first "Dune" book I like. I was also reading "King" books way before they became "popular" and I am waiting for the "The STAND" the movie or mini-series to make it. The Stand is a 1978 book and it is now 1993 and maybe it will be out this time. The Dark man "The man with no face" will finally make it to the screen to face the few. Plus the super-flue will kill you in only a few days, three tops. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 151 Sun Mar 07, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 02:35 EST Lyre, You can't get off topic here.:-) The one thing I find wrong with the current theory of time travel is it's based on light. I don't believe you can actually travel through time and interact amoung them. It would make sense though that you could look at something that you could look into the past and see what happened. If you travel away from the earth fast enough you should be able to turn around and see the earth as it was in the past. That makes perfect sense. However what your seeing is what was, not what is. See Flat, I think Erik the Viking was Gilliam but I wouldn't swear too it. I'll try and find out but I believe it was his name that caught my eye. Judging from it's style it should be him.:-) It looks like his film. I don't think Eric Idle was in it... It was Eric Roberts playing Erik and I think Michael Paylen(?) and Terry Gilliam where in it. I get them mixed up since their always playing 8 and 9 rows in the same flick (not to mention different races and sex's).:-) I do recognize John Cleese and Eric Idle right off!:-) I saw a really good movie a long time ago called the Navigator. Not the Disney flick, this was about a party of 18th century people that traveled through a mountain into 20th century England in search of a clock or something. The entire thing was black and white and I don't think they spoke but maybe twice. I can't find it now, the store that had it closed... they where also my Atari dealer if that explains anything. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 152 Sun Mar 07, 1993 LEXICOR [Lee] at 03:52 EST First: What agreat responce.....You all have the right Idea about this place. I hope the notion of converting some of this into atari generated animations or art has not been lost. About aliens......some unknown facts that you may never see in any printed form or hear in any interview....but it is as factual and as close to the source as you can get :-) Xenormorph is a real term and was correctly used in the film series. If you look up the term then you will find some answers about the Alien creatures. With the exception of the H- Giger "Oral syco/Sexual" pardyme, all the alien nature is based on real living animals...Insect...(ants) to be exact. Now some leberties were taken and the Flying drones were left out but apart from that...well you see what I mean. All this along with the continual (underground) dark imagery and contrasting bright lights (Sun) fills in the mood and sets the tone of the film. If you forget it's just a story and look at is as a real portrail (acid blood discounted) it is a fair description of how many ant types live. No it was not the warrior from Brzil...it was the ornitho- thopter I was referencing. Check out the wing motion and feather flexing, just wounderful. I like Munch....it was to me a very well done portrail of visual story telling where the technology and action was taken literally, this with the other contextual parts is what made it so much fun, the sea monster was stright of some old map! About the shape of space.....well you have the right idea but there is one minor flaw, you are supposing that in space there is no trublance, which is incorrect, You have to realize that although mostly space...eg vacuum, it still acts like a fluid! The actual space is know on an observable level, not mathematical level. Hint....for many years I always thought the shape of the continents fit to geather, but no one had ever proposed this was once the case, and when "qan accepted" expert did suggest it, there was a contrversy for several years untill some testing proved it was so. This means that right now you could know to a certinity what the shape of the universe is, the shape at the moment has to my satisfaction been established but then of course, who am I to say ! :-) just an artist. On the other hand I and thoses who are doing the actual research could just be right? the clues are....if you have been watching television long enough you are certin to have seen the actual "expermental shape", it was man mad here on earth, there is some obsercational research that supports this theory. So any one want to try again? SPHERE AND EGG ARE WRONG. Well thats it for now, I will be uploading some "interestin objs" soon. Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 153 Sun Mar 07, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 23:04 EST Lee, Ok... how about a squashed sphere, almost disc shaped? Any where close?:-) I've got no idea I could go look it up but that wouldn't be any fun. Could be simulated for all we know... Whats past outside the Universe by the way? Anybody have theories on that I've never seen anything. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 154 Mon Mar 08, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 00:16 EST What I have learn from Lee's book is that paying attendition to how creatures move helps in the creation of animations. Sounds logical but some people never get this. For example we see things moving all the time but we really never notice "how" they really move. Lee give a sample of a bird/seagull and how its body moves, wings move up and down, tips move in ciscles, the tail moves, head etc. He also points out that it does not have to be a seagull it can be a "Facitfowl" made of crystals but moves like a bird. One more, no amount of "model" detail will make the animation good if the actual motions does not look real to the eye. If you look at Lee's Dolphin animations you will not only see a Dolphin but the motions is of a dolphin! It is very real even if the resolution of the animation is limited. I thinks this works just fine within this topic, imagine your latest Alien creatures and Observe how things move before creating your 3D2 models. Next use Chronos to create your animations. How about someone creating the "Alien" creature as an animation or say something new for an upcoming animation for the library? We can talk about them here. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 155 Mon Mar 08, 1993 S.SCHAPER [Meneldil] at 00:26 EST Ringo, You can do that with Chronos? Maybe you or Lee could email me a text file, if you have one, detailing your products and costs and system requirements. Lee's book? Whazzat? ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 156 Mon Mar 08, 1993 AEO.3 [Lyre] at 18:59 EST See Flat, On the Baron, the "absurd" was meant in the context of "this is not realistic." I agree with the rest of your comments though. It really was an enjoyable movie. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 157 Mon Mar 08, 1993 D.HELMICK at 19:25 EST ERIK THE VIKING was directed by Python member Terry Jones, based (VERY loosely) on his children's book of the same title. Jones was also director of LABYRINTH, and wrote another hilarious and imaginative children's book entitled FAIRY TALES. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 158 Mon Mar 08, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 22:37 EST D.HELMICK, I knew it was Python like in appearance.:-) It was Tim Robbins as Erik not Eric Roberts (Where'd I get that name?:]). They just can't seem to get away from that style... although The Fisher King was close to being normal.:-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 159 Mon Mar 08, 1993 AEO.3 [Lyre] at 23:25 EST Ringo, The only problem with my Time Travel Theory is that it is a bit combersome. It might be easiest to say that my original post on the subject went into "dissertation mode" and raised as many issues as it dealt with. As a drastically abbreviated version of my theory, all you have to do is figure out where everything in existance is at the arrival/departure time when coming to/leaving from yesterday/today. Of course, this assumes you know when you are leaving and arriving from both yesterday and today. Dealing with this kind of mathematical model of existance would require the computational power of the entire planet - and then some. Keep in mind that you would also have to discover and include in your calculations things such as alternate dimensions, alternate decision realities (Germany won WWII, etc), etc. Otherwise you would do the "Back to the Future" thing: Start at Time/Space Earth 1, affect the past/future and end up in Time/Space Earth 2. Which are *not* the same world. Your temporal alterations of the timestream as known prior to the time travel expedition could easily cause a split in reality (alternate decision realities). Of course, what the heck do I know about all of the math and/or theoretical science involved?!? Lyre 7:37 pm, March 8, 1993 ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 160 Mon Mar 08, 1993 LEXICOR [Lee] at 23:46 EST Time travel and Inter steller travel is very much easyer than that, :-) but first you have to under stand the shape of things! so here is a hint. every thing is the same, size does not matter motion does! you can "see" how this works by direct observation, but remember that nearily every one who has ever spent any time in front of a TV "has" seen the shape of things to come! Egg shap, flat spheer is wrong, remember that in chaos ther is order! space is like a fluid at it's own level! Hint on travel...."rember" the weak force and the strong force! Think of the limits...Light....and....is there a per- ceptable contridiction to this accepted notion? What Book? why My book of course! "Building Beings, Creating Creatures and Doing Dinosaurs" a guid to the stop motion model builder. Lee BTW objects soon :-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 161 Mon Mar 08, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 23:59 EST Lyre, You mean people really can't run a thousand miles an hour? By the way Lyre, my chalenging your statement about the absurdity of the film was only for me to express my views on the film. You would have every right to find it absurd, stupid, ridiculous. I'm glad you liked the film though. Lee, Too bad the Universe isn't Eggshaped. I think eggs are beautiful. Hmmmmm....I remember my teachers in High school telling us about the continents being attached at some point. You picked up on this from your own observations? You must have been happy when some scientists came up with the idea. I would really like to know where I could get your book. I was very surprised when I got the Lexicor manuals and saw your book suggested as a reference manual. Not that you would have written a book but that it was published in 1976. I thought you were younger than me when I spoke to you on the phone. :-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 162 Tue Mar 09, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 00:48 EST The Universe, I believe that there is a general theme in the universe as I've stated before. I have noticed long ago that everything turns.. or cycles if you prefer. So does TV but I don't quite get the hint. Nevertheless, I agree with you Lee that everything is the same no mater how small or big. Everything is made up of the same thing also. Just put together in a differnt way. When I was a kid and I used to look at ants and small insects I used to wonder if perhaps we (our solar system and universe) were living on the arm of some person walking around doing his own thing in another BIGGER universe. This person would be in a universe on the arm of another bigger person.... and on and on.....infinity......but have scientist proven the universe is finite. Surely. maybe the universe looks like an atom. if I back up far enough I might get a peek. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 163 Tue Mar 09, 1993 ATARIAUSTRIA [J.Widi] at 02:59 EST The shape of the universe according to Lee..?? Here's my try: Assuming a finite universe (don't know if that question is settled already) the shape has to be something along the lines of a sphere. A hypersphere, to be more precise, because we need three dimensions of space folding back onto themselves. This needs a fourth axis in space. Might be a hypertorus as well, but in analogy to atoms, moons, planets my vote is for the sphere. The mass is not equally distributed throughout the universe, which should cause irregular warped regions of space, giving bumps and dimples to our hypersphere. So the universe could look like a 4D-golf ball. Now add black holes to the picture, places where space is heavily distorted. Some people say that black holes are tunnels that lead to white holes. If we have tunnels in our universe than we actually have a sponge. So the universe is a spongy four dimensional golf ball! Even if I'm wrong I like the idea :-) -Johannes ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 164 Tue Mar 09, 1993 M.SCHEFFEL at 20:11 EST About that whole shape of the universe thing: the best analogy I have seen is a Mobius loop ( one that circles in on it self , if you start at one point and go straight you will reach that point again. The math part of this is bad, but the imagination takes a lot more work in three dimensions. Question: does Chronos do this? When you make an object to big it tends to fold.*s ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 165 Tue Mar 09, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 21:22 EST Did anyone like the Deep Space Nine time and alien idea. Remember how the alien could make anyone jump back into time sometimes like a dream were you can see yourself do things and sometimes as the object and just be there in time? M.SCheffel. Like the Ad says. Now you can cut and past time and space, see your objects in the past, present and future all in Chronos! Cut and past the time and space of an ubject and past it onto another. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 166 Wed Mar 10, 1993 J.COLE18 [John] at 00:12 EST Lyre, Doesnt Hiesneberg's U. Principal shoot your theory down? Lee, Ok I'll make my stab at your 'shape of the univers question' :-) it's a ring, like a smoke ring after an explosion? Just a quick guess. John @ Lexicor (who doenst always know what his boss is talking about ;-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 167 Wed Mar 10, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 01:36 EST I like the spongy 4D Golf Ball theory! My guess would be no one knows what the universe looks like it's all just speculation based on observations. Judging on our past observactions I'd say we're incorrect.:-) Remember the Earth is flat and the sun revolves around it? How about the Gods on mount olympus? You have to wonder if the gods of today and the theories of today will become as obsolete and ridiculed as those of the past. I've often wondered if you placed those same two ants on opposite sides of the Earth if they would ever meet. Suppose they travel in the same direction at the same speed for infinity. They would never meet and both would probably conclude they where the only ant. A False conclusion but accurate from their own point of view. Theres always the possiblity reality is simulated. What if all input was simulated to the five senses. What if your touching an object that is not actually there. What if you peer into space and what is seen is not actually there. We're just some giant technological experiment in some old crazy guys lab. Sort of like Horton Hears a Who. I saw a couple guys on TV trying to recreate life on earth in a glass ball. They introduced all the elements of the earth at the time of the birth. They where trying to see just how possible it was for life to begin on planet. I believe the actually created a 1 cell organism. They planned to do a larger experiment and recreate the begining of the universe on a smaller scale to see what formed. How they where going to do it I have no idea but the Earth model was cool. I don't think the Universes appearance would be very affected by such things as Black Holes. The Earth is still spherical even though it has hills and valleys. Much like human skin looks smooth, it's only noticably mountainous close up. If the Universe is not a sphere I'd be willing to bet it is part of a larger sphere since it is such a repetative geometric shape. It's origin is believed to come from the mobius shape of tiny strings bending upon themselves and straightening back out. Possible this will return in the shape of the universe only to start the cycle again for a much larger creation of spheres. I'm I stuck on this sphere thing or what?:-) By the way... I just read the other day an Atom is too small to reflect light... cool or what!:-) In theory everything is created from a partical to small to reflect light. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 168 Wed Mar 10, 1993 B.KOLINS1 [Brian] at 03:16 EST Joey, If memory serves (and sometimes it don't), in The Navigator, the screen went from B&W to color when the troupe (what were they? Vikings?) reached present day. Kind of a wholed-over from Wizard Of Oz. One of my favorites (The Navigator I mean). That and, what was it called (?) The Quiet Earth (Australian made). ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 170 Wed Mar 10, 1993 D.HELMICK [Dan] at 05:32 EST > Theres always the possiblity reality is simulated. What if all input > was simulated to the five senses. What if your touching an object > that is not actually there. What if you peer into space and what is > seen is not actually there. Heh heh. Well, Joey, you're not very far from a current theory or two. It appears that our senses respond, not to physical particles, but rather to a limited bandwidth of frequencies. The brain subsequently translates this input into Fourier waveforms, which are what we are actually "seeing", "smelling", "feeling", etc. So from there, it's not reaching very far to suggest that you could reconstruct reality merely by direct application of the proper frequencies. And what would reality look like if we could widen the bandwidth of our perception? It's called the Holographic Paradigm, and right now is providing a lot of excitement for both physicists and psychologists, not to mention mystical types. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 171 Wed Mar 10, 1993 LEXICOR [Lee] at 06:31 EST Well well well, We are getting closer! more hints, you are all in a way very close but not quite at the cigar point. remember what I said....size dosent matter motion does. Shape does. Remember the week force and the strong force....eg atomic attraction and Gravitational forces! More hints...No Egg, no spheres in the ordinary sense. Spong is on the right track. For dimentions is wrong. While time is a dimention in a sense, it has no effect on matter, in fact it is the other way around, matter bends space and effects time. The shape of space does have an effect on the question of "Can you travel on a corporal level" through space...eg in the same way that STAR Treck shows it....and BTW....presuming you could travel at Warp 9 would you see stars flying past? Cueeently there are a small groupe of Astronimers who are at work varifying the shape of space......based on dorect observations. It will take about 50 years to plot enought points to have "acceptable" scientific proof. I for one as an artist and X-Scientest see that the new theory is correct, or maby there could be another way to have this knowledge...Snicker....who can ever say for sure? And yes I am much older than you think....Much Much older. :-) So the questions are, shape, how to travel through it on a coporial level...No warp drives.....and....what could you possibley see on TV that would be a proof? Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 172 Wed Mar 10, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 18:02 EST Joey, if the Atom is too small to reflect light.....how would one look at it? ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 173 Wed Mar 10, 1993 E.WELLS at 18:53 EST Lee, Lelet me take a stab at this... Why don't we say that the universe is a gigantic plain that at first glance (if you could glance at it) would appear to be flat. It is however, rippled (the shortest distance being between to points still holds true, thus making warp drive theory more interesting). Yes, space is curved and looks like a plain and gravitational forces, i.e. planets, stars, large space ship, SGI workstations and Toasters, create further curves or distortions in the fabric of space. It's a little simplistic, but then hey, we're not all Einstein... EHW s -s ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 174 Wed Mar 10, 1993 S.SCHAPER [Meneldil] at 19:21 EST Dan, That is confusing the aparatus with the reality that it observes. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 175 Wed Mar 10, 1993 R.SNYDER6 [Roger] at 19:48 EST I believe they bounce electrons off atoms to "see" them. --Roger ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 176 Wed Mar 10, 1993 D.HELMICK [Dan] at 21:53 EST Meneldil, But what do we really know about reality, outside our experience of it? Lee, Travelling through space on a corporeal level. Does your idea require a technology in advance of our own? And if not, how long have we had the capability? ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 177 Wed Mar 10, 1993 LEXICOR [Lee] at 22:27 EST Well lets see? First flat is wrong, but a nice Idea, on the other hand traveling in a strightline makes some presumptions. One is that you have some referance that allows you to creat a stright line...and that motion has no effect on the strightness of the line, which it does. But that aside, you are right in one respect, where you want to go may not be where you see it now. Try a simple little animation to see how this works. mahe a planet and a moon. Now with traces on make the moon orbit the planet, then have the planet orbit the center of the chronosuniverse. next choosing an arbitray direction move the universe in some direction 10 times faster than the planet moves in its own orbit. Now try these two experments. First using a marker (cube) will do. Mark the launch point and with a second market (diff- color) fly to the moon by always keeping the moon in view (camera on marker). what is the path the marker takes? Now can you get to the same send point faster using the same speed ( marker moves one moom diameter per frame)? If you do the experment you will see that even if you lay down a stright line from launch to contact in the second test, you still get a curved line. Why? becaues our galaxie it's self is rotating and then orbiting in its own right, that with our sun un it's spiral arm orbiting it's glatic center and the Earth, orbiting, and being orbited by the moon, makes for a 6 fold compound curve through space. And yes we do have the technology, and I thought every one knew this? we most every one any way. I am interested to see who comes up with the solutions first! and By the way you can demonstrate the correct shape using SyberSculpt and Chronos! but it was done way back in the Forties......."that was a Hint"....:-) Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 178 Wed Mar 10, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 23:58 EST Brian, Is the Quiet Earth the one where he thinks he's God and sets up a front yard full of cardboard people? I liked that myself, I believe, I even went saw it at the theater... back when you didn't have to take out a loan for popcorn.:-) Dan, I didn't say that right.:-) I meant... what if you had no physical properties at all. What if you could only touch objects because you where told the object existed. Dreams are a good example of this effect. In other words there is no actual object but you would be told it has certain properties. I'm getting anywhere colse to this concept.:-) I always liked peoples concept of handicapped. You have a blind person and the're considered handicapped. On the other hand, none of us can see the infra red or ultraviolet light so in sense we are also blind. Same as what your saying, what if we could see and hear everything out there. I thought it would be kind of cool if there where a race of creatures that only reflected infra red or something. They could wonder around in plain sight and we'd be unable to see them do to our limited senses. Lee, Is it shaped like a sphere!:-) Actually the closer you get to lightspeed the less you can see. Your point of view narrows into a single area directly in front of the viewer as thats the only light reaching your eyes. You'd be traveling to fast to see light beside you and light behind you would be traveling away. I think Einstein theorized it was impossible to travel faster then light. The closer to the speed of light the traveler approachs the slower motion becomes to the point of stopping so it's impossible to travel past that point. I'm still not positive what the speed of light has to do with mass but he was obviously brighter then me so I tend to believe him.:-) I think he also calculated a mass traveling at emense speeds could pass through other objects undamaged due to the speed giving it and increased virtual mass. See Flat, I think they where using an electron microscope. It was on the learning channel or something like that when I was flicking through. They couldn't actually see the Atoms it was just a computer representation. They also believe if the Atoms smaller parts are actually comprised of vibrating strings we would never be able to see them. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 179 Thu Mar 11, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 01:32 EST Lee, the Kronos movie. That was the hint! right......Now I know why I like Chronos. Oh, well back to more studing this...Rats! Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 180 Thu Mar 11, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 01:43 EST Lee. Will splines help with this idea? Splines are like waves and splines are use to show motion timelines thru space, distance use by objects etc...I need to rest. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 181 Thu Mar 11, 1993 ATARIAUSTRIA [J.Widi] at 13:22 EST Well... if sponge is a good idea, You can demonstrate it with chronos and see it on Your TV set (late at night?)... Lee, do You think the universe is a point cloud? If that is the right answer I'm completely at loss what to make of Your other hints. Gee, actually I think You cheated. Those Sirius guys took You on a ride on their UFO and You looked out of the window ;-) and 'it happened in the forties' actually refers to the fact that You can find an article about it in the 'Fortean Times'. Seems I got carried away -Johannes ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 182 Thu Mar 11, 1993 AEO.3 [Lyre] at 21:42 EST John, It very well could shoot my theory down. Of course, I have absolutely no idea who Hiesneberg is, but if he's technologically and scientifically more aware then myself, I would pay him more attention then my own ramblings. :) Not to say that I would agree, just that I would pay attention to what he said. Lyre 8:43 pm, March 11, 1993 ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 183 Thu Mar 11, 1993 S.SCHAPER [Meneldil] at 23:39 EST Dan, `Our'? There is a basic faith decision at this level of epistemology. Am I the only being, and the creator of all that is, or am I a created being and perceive a universe that actually exists. If the former, why the discussion, unless you enjoy it. Indeed, why are you spending your time on the computer reading a message from this particular figment of your imagination when you could be doing something more enjoyable or more interesting? ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 184 Fri Mar 12, 1993 B.KOLINS1 [Brian] at 02:48 EST Joey, Huh? The Quite Earth was a loose variation on the Armageddon thing. Scientific experiment gone awry where all humanoid life just vanishes... except for anyone at that instint that found themselves on the brink of death--by accident or of their own volition. They inherited the Earth. Worth a look just for the matte painting at the end :) ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 185 Fri Mar 12, 1993 J.COLE18 [John] at 22:39 EST Lyre and All, If you dont know who Heisenburg is, and would like to know more about quantam physics, look for a paperback book called 'the cosmic code'. I'll try and find my copy again and get the author info. A very good intro to the realm of smaller than atomic physics and other really strange stuff! John @ Lexicor ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 186 Sat Mar 13, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 01:22 EST Brian, I think I've got the right film, you have to remember I saw it the first week at the movies. That was what... 83 or something? I remember the scene with the huge planet in the background, I believe it's the one used on the poster. Kind of a little guy standing in front of it? It starts out with him naked in a room laying on a bed. I'm talking about the part about half way through, right before he meets the girl where he's gone about half crazy. He's in some huge house walks out on the terrace where he's dressed up cardboard people out in the yard and procliams himself God, half drunk. I believe he's almost over the edge thinking he's the only surviver. It's also the movie where they kee having the flashes isn't it and the try to stop it some how? I may have to go see if I can rent that.:-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 187 Sat Mar 13, 1993 B.KOLINS1 [Brian] at 02:02 EST Joey, Yep, that's the one. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 188 Mon Mar 15, 1993 M.SCHEFFEL at 21:00 EST )Lyre et al The Cosmic Code by Heinz Pagels/ Bantam Books The structure doesn't even stop at Galaxies. There are groups of galaxies, groups of groups of galaxies, etc. Now, I don't know about anyone else, but My Atari can't handle that much. Setting great simul ations is not impossible in Chronos, but what about giving us a gravity effect to make it much easier? A great book about our effect on reality is Blood Music by Greg Bear. In it things get screwed up by too much observation of the universe. There is another one in the last Year's Best Science Fiction by Gregory Benford called Matter's end. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 189 Wed Mar 17, 1993 LEXICOR [Lee] at 02:36 EST Well lets see? are we having fun yet? the chronos hint was two part, and ringo has got part of it! the use of Chronos was to show you how interesting realative motion is and how the notion of a stright line on Earth is quite inappropriate for considering such things as intersteller travel. Which leads us to that...with out taking anything from the work of Albert did, what makes you think that his assumptions are absolute? they are not in fact. next the model of light is currently based on two theories, (Particle and Wave) both can't be right and the effects one sees at speeds (motion) at above the currently measuarable on earth are quite different than you would expect. As to my original question....would you see the now well excepted movie version of star movement at intersteller speeds greater than currently accepted for light. The answer is no! in reality, the universe is so large even at it's denser points, and the distances are so vast, that even at many orders of magnatutd faster than light there is still no perceptual star movement. now it is true that if you do a sudden turn you will see the star field swing past in the oppisit direction,hu when traveling from one position to another in an apparent stright line you will not see stars rushing past. Sorry if this spoile the ol'e Si-Fi effects. BWTH !! now the question is if this is so then what effects do you see if any? Hint......compare flying at 90MPH at some given altitude and 500MPH at twice the same altitude! Now to the shape of things....the intersteller universe.. My hint was directed at focusing something that is on Video tape that you have seen that is man made and is an exact model of the intersteller universe. This hint is very accurate....thats a hint in it's self. you can make a very accurate universal model of the universal with C-Scult in a one meg 1040! BTW Point Cloud was a very good guess and if you use this feature you can model the actual universe even better. You need only the primatives tools and 3D scale tools! Now the comment about my actual experances and origin speaks to an interesting notion :-) but then if any thing like this were a fact would I ever admit to it? and if I did would any one ever accept the fact. On the other hand how would any one ever disprove such a possibility. Just for the sake of this forum suppose that one of you were talking with some one who admitted to such origins....ie non terrestial intelegent being and that being took you on a ride,or better yey put you under the ol'e brain scanner, and in the barging left more than it took? would you dear tell any one? who would believe you, even if they saw some physical proof? and what good could you do with your increased abilities if you ended up in the looney bin? Some very interesting questions! is the Earth population really ready to be exposed to other intellegent beings? Think of it many people are now supposed to be hiding their childhood expearances because of stress, I wounder how much stress meeting other world travelers as a child would create? Ever wounder if one of your dreams about such a thing is actually a buried memory, what about the Idea that Earth is really a ZOO? there are a lot of very strange animas animals on this planet! is it possible that thay are not all natural to Earth, maby none of them are, or worse maby the Earth is a development lab site for animal life and the whole thing could be shut down any moment? you know kill all the lab animals, clean out the cages and put it on the shelf! Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 190 Wed Mar 17, 1993 S.SCHAPER [Meneldil] at 19:37 EST Oh, you mean the concentric shells of galaxies, roughly centered on the local group? Or the image of the crucified man in the early maps? ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 191 Wed Mar 17, 1993 S.SCHAPER [Meneldil] at 19:42 EST As you approch c, the stars will appear to form a circle around you, moving forward as you move faster. The forward edge of the band will be blue, the trailing edge will be reddish. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 192 Wed Mar 17, 1993 LEXICOR [Lee] at 23:36 EST you are getting closer.....:-) but not concentric....... now think about the hints and you should have it! Hint the shape is NOT regular, remember the hints! Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 193 Thu Mar 18, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 13:13 EST Well I'm working on the sample animation suggested by Lee. Lets see first create the planet and moon. Have the moon orbit around the planet. Planet turns around own orbit. Planet with moon around the Chornos universe. What was next? Have the universe move 10 times faster than planet? Was that it? Well with setting Traces on and smooth at 80% we get some very nice curves splines. Is anyone else working on this one? Would like to know what you are getting. Application of Showing Traces in Chronos. 1. Verify object motion. 2. Gives you a sense of motion over time. 3. Gives you a reference to use for positioning objects in the current key frame. Maybe this will help. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 194 Fri Mar 19, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 23:55 EST Well lets see what we need to find out: 1. The Babylon 5 project related done by Lee Seiler. What is in the show that Lee did or had a influence on? Now Lee has some 3D2 models that will be uploaded to the library soon. I don't know what they are. So, can anyone guess! 2. The Universe, planets, objects and the shape of it. Shape maybe influence by its objects(Planets, etc) movements etc. I don't know but I'm working on it. 3. What if "Aliens" did carry out experiments with "some" of us? How, when and why? If so and we were given something in return for our use. Would others have trouble believing this? Yes, they would! Even if it is true even if they had imagine this when they were very young. But we cannot say that we are the only ones in the universe. People use to say that they were the only ones in the "planet" before discovering America and other continents. 4. Let your imagination run free much like it did when you were very young. Remember the time you did not have all of the restrictions that society hinders onto our/your imagination and creative process! Well this are just my opinions...Ideas. Now I'm going back to work on the planets universe ideas...Later. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 195 Sat Mar 27, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 18:25 EST The Universe; Well.....I've no idea which is why I haven't added anything to the subject. I dont' own a TV so I dhave no idea if Lee's clue is related to a TV program or the actual physical properties of the tv's operation. ie. Gases in a tube with electrons being shot on the front screen. (or something like that) I am still hoping to find out what the Universe looks like according to Lee. ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 196 Sat Mar 27, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 20:00 EST J.B Well you can always give it a shot! Remember that as children we were just basically allowed to have more of a "FREE" run with our imaginations. That is why we have Cartoons. But as adults society doesn't really give us that Freedom of imagination. So lets just imagine things. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 197 Sat Mar 27, 1993 LEXICOR [Lee] at 21:47 EST Right as rain....Bear in mind that this area is for streching and reaching with your mind. it makes no difference about right or wrong, what matters is the effort, and I hope that in time some of you will let your selves go and begin to use your computers and our software to turn your thoughts in to something that others can see and expeariance. Think of it !......If you can think of a thing you can create it as an animation....I just got a video tape titled,,,, War on Venius!...the cartoon from japan starts out by explaining how the planet becomes habitable, and while it might never actually happen, it could happen, but then the rest of the 90 minute cartoon follows the adventures of some motorcycle racers ( one wheeled cycles) as they help defend thsir city against an invasion. Now in it's self this is not so special considering the body of Scirnce Fiction, but as an individual work it is very good. Any of us can now with our computers and our talents and a bit of software, create just about anything! well once we give ourselves permission to do it of course. So what I hope in the comments here is to do two things one to expose some of you to the mystries of our real world that you may not be aware of, this might I hope spark an interest that will lead you to something you enjoy, the other is an exercise to get you to take up the challange of doing your own thing! and sharing in return what you like and think is interesting. Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 198 Sun Apr 04, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 16:11 EDT Mr. ET, Raider of the lost ARC, is working on a new film that is base on some very popular cartoon characters. BUT it is not a cartoon it has actors and actresses. It should be fun. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 199 Mon Apr 05, 1993 E.WELLS at 20:33 EDT Ringo, Might that production be the FLINTSTONES? EHW ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 200 Tue Apr 06, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 10:37 EDT Yes, it is E.Wells! Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 16 Message 201 Tue Apr 06, 1993 P.GRECI1 [MIDGARD] at 21:11 EDT Ringo---->>> I was going to answer the Fantastic Four, wouldn't I have looked the fool. ------------