========================================================================= (C) 1993 by Atari Corporation, GEnie, and the Atari Roundtables. May be reprinted only with this notice intact. The Atari Roundtables on GEnie are *official* information services of Atari Corporation. To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem) 800-638-8369. Upon connection type HHH (RETURN after that). Wait for the U#= prompt.Type XTX99437,GENIE and press [RETURN]. The system will prompt you for your information. ========================================================================== Category 14, Topic 45 Message 1 Sat Jun 05, 1993 STEVE-J [Steve @ NLS] at 23:59 EDT Since Atari has now officially announced the Jaguar, it now deserves its own topic in the official Atari Corp. category. To start things off on the 'official' Jaguar topic, here's the Jaguar press release: OTC 06/03 1552 ATARI LAUNCHES THE JAGUAR, A 64-BIT MULTI-MEDIA GAME SYSTEM SUNNYVALE, CA (JUNE 3) PR NEWSWIRE - Atari Corp. (AMEX: ATC), the founder of the video game industry and the creative force behind some of the world's best- known titles, has announced the launch of a revolutionary new multi- media entertainment system, the Atari Jaguar. The launch will be supported by aggressive advertising, promotion and marketing efforts to be centered in the New York market in the fall, with a national roll-out of the product within one year. The Atari Jaguar, housed in a futuristic casing, is an interactive multi- media system based on an Atari-designed proprietary 64-bit RISC processor. The 64-bit system is four times the technology currently seen in the market today. The Atari Jaguar features over 16 million colors in 24-bit true-color graphics and produces shaded 3-D polygons to be manipulated in a "real" world in real time. The Atari Jaguar also has real-time texture mapping and creates spectacular video effects. The sound system is based on Atari's proprietary, high-speed, Digital Signal Processor dedicated to audio. The audio is 16-bit stereo CD quality and processes simultaneous sources of audio data, allowing for very realistic sounds, as well as human voices, which are essential for future multi-media applications. The Atari Jaguar is truly expandable and will include a 32-bit expansion port which allows for future connection into cable and telephone networks, as well as a digital signal processing port for modem use and connection to digital audio peripherals such as DAT players. The unit will also have a compact disc peripheral, which will be double- speed and will play regular CD audio, CD + G (Karaoke) and Kodak's new Photo- CD(R). Currently, there are multiple software titles in development, which will be available on MegaCart(TM). Atari, known for such groundbreaking 3-D titles as "Battlezone 2000(R)" and "Tempest 2000(R)," will issue spectacular new versions for the Atari Jaguar. New 3-D game titles will include "Cybermorph(R)," "Alien vs. Predator(R)," "Jaguar Formula One Racing(TM)" and many more. Atari will license third-party publishers to join the Jaguar family. "The Atari Jaguar system will revolutionize the state of home entertainment as we see it today," said Sam Tramiel, president of Atari. "The idea of a 64- bit system is earth shattering and kids and adults will be amazed at both the imagery and manipulative capabilities. And we are proud that our entry into the multi-media entertainment category will be fully made in America." The Atari Jaguar will retail for approximately $200 and will be available nationwide next year. The Atari Jaguar packaged unit will include one software experience and a Power Pad(R) Controller with a ten-key pad and other special features. Atari Corp. manufactures and markets personal computers and video games for the home, office and educational marketplaces throughout the world. Atari headquarters are located at 1196 Borregas Ave., Sunnyvale, CA 94089. CONTACT: August J. Liguori of Atari Corp., 408-745-2069 ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 2 Wed Aug 18, 1993 WETMORE [Tony] at 22:52 EDT Dan or other Atari folks, Any further info on when/where this thing is gonna be available in New York (what retailers, whatever) this fall? Or, are we gonna be able to order direct from Atari, or will that have to wait until "full rollout" next year? I'm a bit anxious, obviously. If I need to drive to New York, I may have to plan ahead a bit to make sure I have some place to stay overnight. I also have to make sure I know which malls/stores I need to find... [;-) -Tony ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 3 Thu Aug 19, 1993 D.MCNAMEE [Dan @ Atari] at 18:03 EST Tony, Sorry, no further information yet. Dan ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 4 Thu Aug 19, 1993 K.OLSON10 [KenO.] at 18:17 EDT My daughter works for an Airline so I can fly into NY any day I want. I hope when the time comes to fly in and pick up a Jaguar. KenO. ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 5 Thu Aug 19, 1993 K.DRAKE [Sir Fransis] at 19:36 EST Tony, We might be getting some info here soon. Bob Brodie will be uploading some info within a month and what you want to know might be in it. (Heck, it may be up now!) ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 6 Thu Aug 19, 1993 WETMORE [Tony] at 23:27 EDT Dan, Okay, thanks. You =will= let us know the minute you hear something, won't you? [;-) -=-=-=- Sir Francis, Ugh! That's what I had to do Friday, September 3rd. Go to the Brodie RTC. I'll have to see if I can wiggle out of the plans I made. I =knew= there was something I had to do that night... Maybe I'll just have to grab the transcript. Oh well. [:-( -Tony ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 7 Thu Aug 19, 1993 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 23:40 EDT Because, like spice, the info MUST flow... A post from delphi said: ( !!! LONG POST WARNING !!! ) 58672 19-AUG 03:04 General Information The Jaguar Media Event - As seen by Andy From: CMILLAR To: ALL 64-bit RISC multiprocessing architecture. High-speed (106.4 Mbyte/sec) 64-bit data path 27 MIPs Graphics Processor with 4K bytes of zero wait-state internal SRAM that is closely coupled to the blitter, that can perform a full range of graphics effects (including shading and rotations) at high speed, yet is programmable for maximum flexibility. A programmable Object Processor that can act as a variety of different video architectures, such as an advanced sprite engine, pixel-mapped based systems character mapped based systems and many others. 27 MIPs DSP with 8K bytes of zero wait-state internal SRAM for CD quality sound and full stereo capabilities. A blitter that can perform a full range of logical operations at high speed with hardware support for Z-buffering and Goudraud shading. MC68000 CPU clocked at 13.3MHz as a general purpose control processor. Lifelike quality 32-bit color on NTSC or PAL television screens, yielding greater than 16 million colors (16,777,216 exactly). Resolution = 720 x 576 ROM cartridge capacity to 48 megabits of compressed or uncompressed code. When compressed, equivalent to almost 400 megabits. 16 megabits of fast page-mode DRAM. An optional double speed CD-ROM drive (sidenote: $200 sometime during 1994) ComLynx I/O for networked multiconsole games (even with Lynx and Jaguar mixture). Two (expandable to literally dozens) enhanced controller ports, supporting digital and analog interfaces, as well as keyboards, lightguns and mice. High performance, ergonomically designed, controller with joypad, three fire- buttons, Pause, Option, and 12-key keypad with game-specific overlays. High speed synchronous serial port for connection to modems, cable TV, networks and other high performance networks. There are two custom chips, code-named Tom and Jerry, which combined contain four processors "Jerry" has the DSP, the 8K SRAM, a sound block and a block for "timers, UART, joysticks and clock control." "Tom" has "DRAM memory controller, object processor, GPU (w/ 4K SRAM) and the blitter." 68000 is separate as it the DRAM and Cart/CD-ROM ties. .Andy>...no discussion of licensees signed or interested. Formal announcement(s) will take place in mid-Sept. Games Andy saw saw: Cybermorph; "Shooter," which has been renamed to something like Trevor McFur in Crescent Galaxy. Also, a scene from Alien vs. Predator. I missed all but the last two questions in the presentation, so I'm going to try to get a copy of the videotape they made of the event. ..[the games are] much like the 3DO stuff that has been shown. Cybermorph is a side-scrolling shoooter, and there was a way to move ahead in the game with a buttonpush (I suspect as a demo), and it screamed the data past the screen F-A-S-T. There was also an on-the-fly rendering, much like Star Fox, but without the ship "on rails" (in the words of John Skrutch). You can go anywhere. .Chris M.> Would you say the 3DO stuff you have seen surpasses what you have seen thus far for the Jaguar? .Andy> I'd say it's comparable. That's an important note given that the Jag is one third the price or about half if you add the CD-ROM drive. .Chris M.> Can you describe the physical Jaguar unit? .Andy> Sleek, black, kinda like a Merlin: Rounded corners on a square unit. Like someone said, though, when the CD is on top, it looks like a toilet... (especially when the CD cover is popped up). .Andy> Also, Atari is dropping the "only Ataris" policy for development and such. Because of that, there is a TT development station and a PC station, but tools are being used on Macs and others. They are still talking about using high-end computer rendering software that already exists (like SoftImage, which was used on commercials and on Sega's Virtua Racing). .Chris M.> Can you desribe the scene from Aliens vs. Predator you saw? .Andy> ...it was just a representation of what the halls would look like while you moved through them. Very cursory. I was going to sign an NDA to see more of the stuff upstairs, but they didn't have one handy (the guy was out to lunch) and I wouldn't be able to talk about them anyway (hehe). Also, I'm trying to get disk files of pictures, which Bob is working on. Oh, and there will be a detailed CO with Bob and Sam next Wednesday...[in the World of Video Games SIG, right here on Delphi!]...they handed out great t- shirts. (hehe) Enjoy!!!!! - Chris Millar ========================================================================== A lot of info flowed at the regular Tuesday Conference in the Atari SIG on Delphi. Bob Brodie was there to answer any Jaguar questions that anyone might have! There is also a picture (AP photo) of the Jag on page 2 of my paper tonight! ========================================================================== A REUTERS newswire item: SUNNYVALE, Calif. (Reuter) - Atari Corp. plans to ship 50,000 units of its new 64-bit "Jaguar" video-game system in time for Christmas, the company's president said Wednesday. Sam Tramiel told a news conference that the system, which is being built under contract by International Business Machines Corp., will be launched initially in the New York and San Francisco markets. The launch will be backed by an "aggressive" $3 million advertising campaign. The game system, which connects to a television, will be marketed nationally in 1994, he said. He said Atari has been conserving cash and now has some $40 million in the bank to fund the Jaguar launch. "We have more than adequate funds to finance the launch," he told a news conference. Tramiel said with the Jaguar launch the company also hopes to revive sales of its Lynx hand-held game system. Eventually the company hopes to get 80 percent of its revenues from the two systems. ======================================================================= Enjoy!!!!! -------------------> Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 8 Fri Aug 20, 1993 RHETT [Mr.Anderson] at 01:35 EDT I'm curious. What do you all think about this 48 megabits of compressed code turning into almost 400 megabits of uncompressed code? Surely they're not actually talking about real program "code." Probably code and data. Perhaps JPEG or fractal-based graphics compression? Wavelet audio compression? What do you suppose is going on here? LZ and arithmetic coding rarely exceed 3-to-1 compression in real world data. So we must be talking about a lossy compression, right? --Rhett ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 9 Fri Aug 20, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 05:00 EDT I'm glad they picked up on the MegaBITs hype. Make me have to use a calculator to figure out what there really saying.:-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 10 Fri Aug 20, 1993 STEVE-J [Steve @ NLS] at 05:38 EDT When I first saw the "agressive $3 million campaign" I was bewildered...then I realized that was probably just for the New York and San Francisco marketing campaigns. Then again, it IS Atari we're dealing with, so maybe $3 million IS their marketing budget for the Jaguar over the next year. The '20 developers' was DEFINITELY distressing, though. Doesn't Atari realize that fewer developers equals fewer titles (which, in turn, equals less interest!)? They already killed the Lynx -- don't do it again with the Jaguar!!! Atari seems to think that great hardware sells itself -- WRONG! ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 11 Fri Aug 20, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 09:52 EDT For what its worth yesterday one of our local papers, the Ventura Star/Free- Press carried an AP story about the Jaguar. Apparently Atari had some kind of a Jaguar press conference on Wednesday. Nothing new in the way of info, but it was nice to see Atari getting some press. I liked the line about how "Atari's computers are barely a blip in the PC market." ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 12 Fri Aug 20, 1993 D.MCNAMEE [Dan @ Atari] at 15:23 EST Tony, Yep, I will. Dan ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 13 Fri Aug 20, 1993 JOHN.KING.T [JOHN KING T] at 22:16 EDT Steve, The press release went on to say that the PR budget for 1994 would be $45,000,000. JKT ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 14 Fri Aug 20, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:48 EDT Sam: > A blitter that can perform a full range of logical operations at high > speed with hardware support for Z-buffering and Goudraud shading. I hope it can scale and rotate too!!! > Lifelike quality 32-bit color on NTSC or PAL television screens, yielding > greater than 16 million colors (16,777,216 exactly). > > Resolution = 720 x 576 I think "32 bits" is supposed to be "24 Bits": 720 x 576 x 32 bits = 13 megabits (not enough for double buffering) 720 x 576 x 24 bits = 9.9 megabits (STILL not enough for double buffering) (As much as I hate these megaBITs terminology, I converted to it, so that nobody would need a calculator to convert these figures to the ones in the specs.) My guess is that these are _maximum_ resolutions! It must have lower ones which are less memory consuming to allow for double-buffering and whatnot. I wish someone could confirm whether or not this thing has a monitor port, or at least S-VHS!!! > ComLynx I/O for networked multiconsole games (even with Lynx and Jaguar > mixture). The ComLynx option is _cool_!!! Just think: you could write a football or baseball game where the players used Lynxes as controllers for choosing strategies/plays _on a private screen_!!! AWESOME! Now all we need is for BEYOND GAMES to port Battlewheels to the Jag!!! > High speed synchronous serial port for connection to modems, cable TV, > networks and other high performance networks. I hope this is a typo, and the author meant Asyncronous. It would be tough to hook up RS-232 stuff to a syncronous port without lots of hardware inbetween. > 16 megabits of fast page-mode DRAM. Looks like the "Only 1 meg" runors were bogus. > SUNNYVALE, Calif. (Reuter) - Atari Corp. plans to ship 50,000 units of its > new 64-bit "Jaguar" video-game system in time for Christmas, the company's > president said Wednesday. Make that 49,999 units. ONE OF THEM IS MINE!!! Actually, they'd have to make $60 profit _on each one_ just to make back their advertising costs. This could finally mean that someone in Sunnyvale learned that they have to _invest_ in advertising to make profits later. _____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 15 Fri Aug 20, 1993 AEO.MAG [?] Travis [?] at 23:26 EDT Look for a special edition of AEO to be in the Libraries tommorrow. It will feature detailed Jaguar information released at Atari's press conference this week - including GIFs of several Jaguar games! AEO - Your Independent Atari News Source --Travis ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 16 Sat Aug 21, 1993 R.SNYDER6 [Roger S.] at 00:04 EDT Gee, a $3 million dollar advertising budget would be agressive for us. (I think we spent $30 last year.) ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 17 Sat Aug 21, 1993 K.DRAKE [Sir Fransis] at 00:18 EST Thunderbird, I think the 1 meg rumor was true but when the developers said,"Great system, too bad it's only 1 meg though," Atari either had to up the megs or deal with disgruntled developers. With their track record, it was safer to up the megs. Look at 3DO. Initially it was supposed to have 2 megs. Even early spec sheets said 2 megs. Now it's 2 DRAM, 1 VRAM for a total of 3 megs. That, they had to do to keep up with the Jag hardware ;)! You wouldn't need to hook up RS-232 stuff to it if you had a software driven controller, would you? Just program the port for what you need it to do and BAM! new peripheral. I'm an audio guy and CD-quality sound means nothing to me if it's only one sound channel. Anyone know how many voices it has? (8-stereo channels would be the minimum for me) I can see the opposition now,"It's got a 68000 so it's 16-bit with a 64-bit graphics chip!" Well, if it is only that, it's the darndest 16-bit _I've_ ever seen! Still Sailing, Sir Fransis -because now we know, and knowing is half the battle. ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 18 Sat Aug 21, 1993 RHETT [Mr.Anderson] at 01:07 EDT Thunderbird, >>I think "32 bits" is supposed to be "24 bits"... It's probably 24 bits of color with an 8-bit alpha channel for effects. --Rhett ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 19 Sat Aug 21, 1993 STEVE-J [Steve @ NLS] at 04:05 EDT REALM - Since other marketing bozos in the video game industry already set megaBITS as the standard for measurement, they pretty much HAD to go with that at this point. General (i.e. ignorant) consumers wouldn't know the difference between "megabits" and "megabytes" (especially since both are referred to as "megs"). If they saw Jaguar games (sorry, "software experiences") listed as being "4 megs" and other platforms' games listed as being "12 megs" (where they are actually 4 megaBYTES and 12 megaBITS, respectively), they're going to come to the conclusion that the latter must be better because 12 is bigger than 4. I wish people weren't so simple-minded -- even the old 2600 COMBAT cartridge (which was ".064 megs" or 8K) is still a fun game. ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 20 Sat Aug 21, 1993 STEVE-J [Steve @ NLS] at 05:48 EDT JOHN.KING.T - Well, I'll believe that when I see it! With Sam Tramiel's admission that there are only about 20 Jaguar developers, I've lost a lot of faith in its ability to succeed. I DO want one and plan to get one as soon as possible, though. D.ENGEL - Also, the Jaguar's video would be interlaced. And when they talked about the $200 price, it sounded a little like the price might go UP at a later date (i.e. the $200 is an introductory price until there is a well- established userbase). AEO.MAG - But Bob Brodie promised us 24-bit Targa pics!!! What's missing, so far, is a public demonstration of the Jaguar. It's been shown to stock holders and now to the press, but the capabilities of 3DO have been shown for a number of months now. Maybe Atari could release a video press release (a videotape demontration of what the Jaguar can really do)? A lot of people are saying to themselves, "it sounds nice, but what can it REALLY do?" By the way, the August issue of ST FORMAT has a picture of Jeff Minter holding a "Jaguar Technical Reference Manual" -- I hope those nosey journalists didn't see any more than they were supposed to! ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 21 Sat Aug 21, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 06:13 EDT Thunderbird, make that 49,998!:-) Their already selling like hotcakes!:-) On the developer end of the deal, what your seeing is their long time history of developer, dealer abuse. No one wants to develope for them. If they get this thing off the ground in a big way over the Christmas season, this should change. Funny how money can iron out any historical problems.:-) Also quantity is not better then quality. I'd guess Nintendo probably only has 20 good games.:-) Maybe Atari plans to get the 20 good ones out first. The Lynx's poor marketing might actually be a blessing. The fewer people who know that, the better. ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 22 Sat Aug 21, 1993 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 12:16 EDT T-Bird: Those extra 8 bits could be for overlays.... The resolution looks to be 600x480+Overscan. I'd say games will use lower res, and the max res was provided for "Text" applications... Also, if you assume 32 bit was a typo, why did you use it in your calculations? Bob Brodie stated that the output is Composite, RF, S-VHS He may of said RGB also, I don't recall... Bob Brodie and Sam Tramiel will be in conferene on Wednesday at 10pm (eastern) on DELPHI in the World of Video Games Sig. I'm sure they will be happy to answer all questions.... ------------> Sam Also, the $199 MSRP includes (1) controller and (1) game... ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 23 Sat Aug 21, 1993 AEO.MAG [?] Travis [?] at 13:58 EDT Steve, The GIFs are for AEO (smaller, to allow for more pixs in the issue). I will begin uploading the Targas (24-bit!) to GEnie after I upload AEO. The games that we have screens from are: Raiden, Evolution- Dino Dudes, Kasumi Ninja, and (what may be my favorite) Tiny Toon Addventures. GIve me about 4-5 more hours to finish up AEO, then expect the Targas to slowly arrive. Question: There are from 2-6 pics from each game. They are... large picture files. Would everyone prefer grouped pics (one group per game) or seperate picture uploads? They will be ZIPped. I'll check in here to see if there is a preference. Take care, all. --Travis ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 24 Sat Aug 21, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 16:51 EDT SteveJ, Actually, COMBAT was boring. I prefer Asteroids. :) So? Are any Jags _REALLY_ gonna be available next month? Or are we talking Atari years here? --Kevin PS. IFF they get this thing on the ball, I'll definitely buy one. Now... how to connect it to my new Falcon... ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 25 Sat Aug 21, 1993 WETMORE [Tony] at 20:55 EDT Travis, I think that if you grouped the pics from each game into a separate .ZIP file (or .LZH, or whatever) and uploaded them, that would be cool. Ummm, just =how= big are these files, anyway? [:-) Looking forward to seeing them! -Tony ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 26 Sun Aug 22, 1993 E.JOLLEY [Eric] at 01:13 EDT I would also prefer the pics to be archived separately, and uploaded with detailed descriptions, since 24-bit pictures tend to be quite large, and I'd like to know what I'm downloading. ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 27 Sun Aug 22, 1993 K.DRAKE [Sir Fransis] at 01:37 EST My 2 cents. One ZIP file containing 2 pix. If a particular game has more than 2 pix then give it numbered files (Toon1.ZIP, Toon2.ZIP) That way, I can download 2 pictures and see if I want to download the rest (If the files are _really_ _very_ _large_!) Sam, It'd be nice to use my stereo RGB monitor with the Jag. I hope it outputs. Ah, Ah, Ah! That's "software experience" my good man! :) Still Sailing, Sir Fransis ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 28 Sun Aug 22, 1993 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 02:10 EDT The files aren't really _that_ large. The current selection of pix that Travis has is about a meg, ZIPPED. I suggest that he break them down into a game by game archive. I'm sure that you will all enjoy them. The issue will have the GIFs in them, so that it can be uploaded to other networks that will not have as efficent a method for distribution as GEnie does. IE, the FNET. Some of those sysops get peeved if a file becomes too big to suit them. This way, we get the best of both worlds! The targas will be here, and so will the current issue of AEO. regards, Bob Brodie ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 29 Sun Aug 22, 1993 B.AEIN [B Man] at 03:42 EDT I just Dwlded both files and I got 1 TGA to work, although it is upside down of the tiny toon circle, the rest are streaks of color!!!! The other file with the gifs worked except for the Jag img!!! I hope one of the Syops can credit my account and anyone else you spent 40- 50min Dlwd unusable files. Has anyone else have these probs? I am using PhotoChrome to veiw everything but the IMG file of the Jag Please check this file Syops. Bman ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 30 Sun Aug 22, 1993 J.ROY18 [Jonathan] at 04:08 EDT Actully, the MPEG2 standard is rather neat. :) AEO.MAG, Can you get all of those pictures onto atari.archive.umich.edu? Then those of us with Inet access can get ALL the targas for free. :) Uncompress tga files, by the way, usually compress pretty well. (At least enough to justify the compression time.) ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 31 Sun Aug 22, 1993 STEVE-J [Steve @ NLS] at 04:31 EDT SAM-RAPP - Yes, composite, RF, S-Video, and RGB. AEO.MAG - That's a relief! No offense, but the low resolution GIFs don't seem like anything special (i.e. nothing you couldn't currently see on a Genesis or SNES system). Get those Targas uploaded NOW! PG.MUSIC - Mass production of Jaguars is supposed to start next month, so I wouldn't expect them to show up for sale until around November. It was good to hear in AEO that the national campaign is supposed to start in January, though! I think Atari should start airing national 'teaser' ads for the Jaguar (e.g. 15 second ads that show a few quick glimpses of Jaguar games in action followed by a simple "Jaguar is Coming!" statement at the end) as soon as possible, though. ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 32 Sun Aug 22, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 08:23 EDT Sam: I used 32 bits in only one calculation, and 24 in the other, to show that the 32 bit number could be an error because it consumed almost the entire memory of the machine for one screen. The 24 bit calculation was only for a comparison to show that this would be a more reasonable number. Travis: Why don't you keep all the files separate, i.e. each one in it's own file. That way I can get one from each game, and then go back and download the rest of the pics from the games which looked like I would be interested in. ______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 33 Sun Aug 22, 1993 K.DRAKE [Sir Fransis] at 10:58 EDT Is Targa a standard or an ST format? I've got a macintosh and was wondering if I'd be able to use the pix if I downloaded them. (I've only got 8-bit color but 32-bit quickdraw should dither it down for me) Still Sailing, Sir Fransis ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 34 Sun Aug 22, 1993 J.NESS [Jim] at 11:24 EDT Sir Fransis - Re: "8-channel stereo... minimum..." Jeez, then they'd have to invent an 8-channel headphone set. There's no way a games developer is going to produce a game with 8 discrete stereo channels. Think of the storage requirement for the digital sound. Plain old everyday stereo, for the masses with two ears, is all that's needed. -JN ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 35 Sun Aug 22, 1993 J.ROY18 [Jonathan] at 13:33 EDT Targa files have a section that says which corner is the topleft (topright?). PhotoChrome probably ignores it. :) ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 36 Sun Aug 22, 1993 JOHN.KING.T [JOHN KING T] at 14:41 EDT B Man, I downloaded the TGAs and they all worked perfectly. JKT ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 37 Sun Aug 22, 1993 J.ROY18 [Jonathan] at 14:46 EDT Well, at least have surround sound. :) Targa is a platform inspecific format. ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 38 Sun Aug 22, 1993 AEO.MAG [?] Travis [?] at 14:52 EDT All, I'll be uploading all (two!) Kasumi Ninja Targas in a few minutes. They're not as large as the Tiny Toons (both are 217K ZIPped), so I'll keep both of them in one ZIP. Thanks for the respnse, guys. When I get to the Evolution Dino-Dudes (three) and the Raiden (eight, I think), I'll try to keep the ZIPs around 200K. Jonathan, I don't have direct Internet access :-( but I wouldn't be suprised if they make their way to atari.archive one day! And you're right about compressing Targas. In some cases, they actually ZIP smaller than similar-resolution-converted-to-256-color- GIFs-that-are-then- ZIPped. I spent a lot of time this weekend testing and retesting different methods. Take care all! --Travis P.S. That is, both KN Targas are 217K when ZIPped TOGETHER! Sorry! ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 39 Sun Aug 22, 1993 AEO.MAG [?] Travis [?] at 14:53 EDT Bman, First, thanks for downloading AEO, and I'm sorry that you're having trouble with the picture files. How are you trying to view the IMGs? What result do you get when you try to view them? I haven't used PhotoChrome in over half year, so I d/l'ed it and checked the Targas. I get exactly what you describe. Then I checked the Targas again with GEMView. Perfect. Not being a PhotoChrome expert, I read through the topic in CAT 7 (TOPIC 30). In there, I found several messages I would like to quote parts from: > Message 39 Fri May 14, 1993 > J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 01:53 EDT > > As far as I know PChrome only handles Targa type 2 uncompressed 24 > bit at 320x200. I've never done any tests though. The Jaguar Targas are Type 2, 24-bit. Only TOONRING.TGA (the one you could view upside-down) is a 320x200 file. This seems to support what John said. Further, the images I viewed did appear to me to be heavily skewed, again supporting the proposition. > Message 6 Sun Mar 28, 1993 > R.MARTIN22 [NETWORK 23] at 20:13 EST > > One thing I forgot to mention about Adobe Photoshop's TGA files. Be > sure to turn them upside down before saving them out as TGA's. > Whenever Photochrome gets a hold of them, it flips them vertically > for some reason. Apparently (and this is an assumption), PhotoChrome assumes a bottom-to-top conversion. This would explain why TOONRING.TGA appeared upside-down. Are there any graphics mavens out there who can give a fuller explaination? In addition, the colors in TOONRING.TGA seemed off in PhotoChrome. I'm truly sorry, but the Targa files I uploaded are good. I will put a note in future uploads to the effect that they may not be compatable with PhotoChrome. My suggestion (for what it's worth), use GEMView. I did note in the file description that the Tiny Toons Targas were checked with GEMView (works back to GV version 2.21, as far as I can test.). --Travis ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 40 Sun Aug 22, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 15:02 EDT To whoever was complaining about the Jaguar Targas: All four of them display just fine on my Falcon using either Gemview or Truepaint. So there's nothing wrong with the files themselves other than they may not be Photochrome compatible. By the way, they look GREAT! Guess I'll be making a trip to San Francisco this Christmas to get myself a Jag. Licensing the Tiny Toon Adventures characters was a smart move. Are they exclusive to Atari or do Nintendo or Sega also have them? ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 41 Sun Aug 22, 1993 AEO.MAG [?] Travis [?] at 15:21 EDT David, Thanks for checking the Targas with Truepaint. As far as getting a Jag, I can't wait myself. I especially want to check out Tiny Toons and Alien Vs. Preditor. I think I've seen a Tiny Toons game out for the N*nt*nd*. I'm glad that Atari is picking up these licenses also. (Next on my list would be ST:TNG and some Major League Baseball and NFL licenses.) The Kasumi Ninja Targas are up, I'll get to the Raidens tonight. Take care all! --Travis ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 42 Sun Aug 22, 1993 G.MON [Gerry] at 16:00 EDT Travis: That was probably one of the best AEOs I've read in a long time! I especially liked the block diagram of the Jaguar (and the Jaguar logo is cool too!). Thanks to all the people who help put that issue together! --Gerry ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 43 Sun Aug 22, 1993 RHETT [Mr.Anderson] at 16:09 EDT After reading the AEO special Jaguar issue, I have a few comments. First, I see that Atari has liscensed the Cinepak technology. That's a good move, in my opinion. The 3DO and Sega Cinepak stuff works pretty well, and I'm glad that Atari has jumped on this particular bandwagon. Second, I'm a little confused regarding the processors. I feel the articles were a bit unclear concerning this issue. One statement was that the Jag has a "64-bit RISC-based multiprocessing architecture." That's kind of a tortured statement, and I'm not really sure what it means. The chart shows that the Jag has 5 processors. It lists the first one as "GPU." Is this a general purpose processor or just a graphic chip? What is the main processor on the Jag? Not the 68000, I hope. This GPU is not mentioned anywhere else in the issue. I guess what I'm getting down to is this: If I want to program the Jaguar, what kind of system am I going to be programming? A 68000 with a set of RISC- like graphics processors? Or a RISC based machine that happens to have a 68000 dropped into it? --Rhett ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 44 Sun Aug 22, 1993 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 17:00 EDT Bman- Forget about PhotoChrome, get GemView to look at those Targas. I used GemView 2.32 to check 'em out on a Mega ST 4 with TOS 1.04, specifically to ensure that people would be able to view the pics. Please don't slam the pix when the fault lies with the viewer that you're using. Sir Francis- I'm sure that you will be able to use your Mac to view the Targas. Try using PhotoShop. Targa is indeed a standard, cross platform format. J.Roy18- Someone is going to have to D/L them from here to get them to the Atari Archives. GEnie is our official resource, the files will start here, and we'll let nature take it's course. :) Rhett- You will be programming a RISC based machine with a 68000 dropped in to it. Some devs are using the 68000 to control the joysticks, or handle game logic. G.MON- I know that your comments are appreciated! regards, Bob Brodie ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 45 Sun Aug 22, 1993 RHETT [Mr.Anderson] at 17:29 EDT Thanks Bob, That's really good news, because a fast RISC chip will do a lot better job of fast decompression (i.e.: The JPEG mentioned in the article) than a 68000 at the noted speed. Decompression is very important for cart games, less so for CD games. Fractal compression typically works better than JPEG, but you need more horsepower to do the work. Hopefully, the Atari RISC chip will make a good engine for fractal decompression. Then we'll see unbelievable graphics on cartridge. I'm not betting on the Jaguar yet(it still seems like quite a long shot), but I must admit that everything sounds great. Now it's up to Atari to pull it off (and developers to support it, and wholesalers and retailers to carry it, and press to cover it, and customers to buy it). --Rhett ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 46 Sun Aug 22, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 22:05 EDT Travis, I don't suppose you have any ALIEN vs. PREDATOR screenshots? ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 47 Sun Aug 22, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 22:07 EDT Travis, I don't suppose you have any ALIEN vs. PREDATOR screenshots? ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 48 Mon Aug 23, 1993 AEO.MAG [?] Travis [?] at 02:55 EDT David, I wish I did. I just uploaded eight shots from Raiden - funny that these eight Targas compressed to 201K. Go figure. Anyway, I have three Targas from Evolution Dino-Dudes which I will try to send up Monday night. All, oh behalf of the AEO staff, thanks for the good words, and thanks for reading AEO! We do our best to provide current, hard information to y'all. --Travis ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 49 Mon Aug 23, 1993 AEO.MAG [?] Travis [?] at 02:55 EDT Deja vu. --Travis ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 50 Mon Aug 23, 1993 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 03:04 EDT Rhett, According to the media, we're already putting up graphics like no one else has. :) Be sure to check out the spec sheets in AEO, I'm sure that you'll be impressed. The rendering speed of the Jaguar is very impressive, and makes things for developers much more exciting. David, Not yet, not yet. Lots of terrific texture mapping to show, but the gang wants to make the Alien look a little bit better before releasing very many shots. (One of the game mags did entice them into a few that they took, though) Travis, Wait a minute, what's with the delay? You wanna sleep or something???? regards, Bob ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 51 Mon Aug 23, 1993 K.DRAKE [Sir Fransis] at 04:59 EST Bob, Just having the pictures here where anyone with an account can get to them is a big step up in PR. Just think of all the Fanzines that will be able to use high quality (even if it may end up grayscale) screenshots without the fuss. I hope you continue this trend because I really think it helps a lot. Are there any plans to offer a keyboard to connect the Jag to GEnie and enable new owners (us :) to view pix of upcoming games? AEO, My conversion program gave me a Jaguar logo that was tall and thin. Is that the actual logo or is my aspect ratio off? If it's supposed to be interlaced then I figure all I have to do is halve the height. David, Tiny Toons has shown up on almost every system so far (TG16, Lynx, and GG excluded, I think). It'll definitely be one of my first purchases unless it comes with the system (along with Kasumi Ninja - cool plot!) Jim, By 8 channel stereo, I mean 8 voices, each with a stereo range of 0 to 255 (with 0 being totally left and 255 being totally right). Of course more would be appreciated. :) By the way, from the block diagram, what is the sound chip connected to? Does the DSP control the sound chip and then the sound chip sends to the speaker (or mini-headphone jack if it has one). I was hoping the DSP would be between the sound chip and the speaker to add special effects to the output. Still Sailing, Sir Fransis ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 52 Mon Aug 23, 1993 WETMORE [Tony] at 05:24 EDT Just a quick note to say that I've grabbed all the Targa files and they =really= are nothing like the GIF files in the AEO mag. If you just looked at the GIFs and weren't real impressed, grab a couple of the Targas! (BTW, I used PMView running on a PC under OS/2, so the shots were dithered to ~256 colors, but they still looked great!) BTW, I'm in the market for a new TV set and want to make sure that it doesn't hinder the Jaguar's graphic abilities. Anyone know what feature(s) I should look for in a TV, and what such a set might cost me? [:-) I saw some notes in the AEO mag about "PAL" or "NTSC" type sets, but I don't know what those are (yet), or how much they'd cost... -Tony ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 53 Mon Aug 23, 1993 ARCHIVIST [Charlie] at 15:04 EDT Tony, NTSC is simply the broadcast standard used here in North America. PAL is the standard used in Europe, and doesn't work here. Don't worry about it; any TV you buy here will be NTSC. Just find the sharpest picture on the largest TV you can afford. ;-) Charlie/sysop ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 54 Mon Aug 23, 1993 WETMORE [Tony] at 16:14 EDT Charlie, Thanks, I figured they were something which would REALLY show my ignorance. I did notice that some of the TVs I was looking at were labelled as having "Super Video" input. That is, I think, what the S-VHS thing and the Super Video thing mentioned in the Jaguar specs refers to, correct? So, if I buy one of these sets with the Super Video input, the Jag should really look cool? [:-) Thanks, -Tony, Leaning toward a 27" Sony Trinitron at the moment... ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 55 Mon Aug 23, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 17:56 EDT NTSC = Never Twice the Same Color. No wonder the Europeans chose another method. :) Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 56 Mon Aug 23, 1993 B.AEIN [B Man] at 18:25 EDT Travis, It seems that I got only part of the file containing the gif's, as it said that the jag.img had a bad header and there was no txt file! Bob, I have Gem Veiw 2.13 and it wouldn't load the TGA either, guess I've got to dwnld the newest version. Can you say if the jag will support Dolby Pro Logic surround sound? I would like to suggest a High energy, Fast cutting/montage editing, surround sound Movie trailer to be shown before movies! This would be a perfect medium to show off the Jag and you could be very percise on your target audience. This would be an inexpensive way to advertise the Jag and would be the perfect place to pump the unknowing mass's about the future of video gaming. A 2-3 minute piece would work really well and be sure to have a direct to film version and not the terrible video to film commercails we are seeing lately in the theaters. What do ya think of this idea? Thanks Bman ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 57 Mon Aug 23, 1993 K.DRAKE [Sir Fransis] at 20:05 EDT AEO.MAG, Now my appetite is whetted. Targa pics, the logo and the block diagram. Only one more thing is needed..... When do you upload the picture of the Jaguar itself? I didn't check my newspaper so I don't know if it was in there or not. Is anyone aware of any dailies that carried the pic? Still Sailing, Sir Fransis ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 58 Tue Aug 24, 1993 E.WELLS at 00:04 EDT I saw a pic of a Panasonic unit built on technology licensed from 3DO today. Pretty nice, though its game controller was little more than a slightly larger version of a Genesis controller. Call me crazy, but aside from the fact that I like my computer games better than Nintendo, I hate the controllers! The Jaguar better have a better controller, 'cause this is the first time since Intellivision that I've even considered a game system... EHW ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 59 Tue Aug 24, 1993 AEO.MAG [?] Travis [?] at 00:25 EDT B00000000000000 Sir Fransis, Are you trying to convert the IMG in ST Medium resolution? I know when I view it in that res, it comes out tall and thin for me. In TT Medium, the logo looks just right. Please let me know; I'm curious. And about the sound chip. Ummm, I don't know. I have assumptions, but we all know about ass-u-me-ptions. Maybe someone will come along who has answers. As to a picture of the Jag machine itself, heck, I haven't seen one. I've asked for such a pic before - maybe, soon.... Bob, Sleep? Nahhhh. Something else. ;-) --Travis ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 60 Tue Aug 24, 1993 F.CUCCI [goodwrench] at 00:41 EDT Bob Brodie, don't you ever check your E-mail??? I see that you are usually on this topic. Thanks, Frank c.*s ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 61 Tue Aug 24, 1993 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 01:08 EDT Frank, My email backlog is huge. I do check it, but only recently started participating in this topic...it's inaccurate to say that I am usually on this topic. I'm hear right now because we just did a press conference, and we can finally end the suspense that a lot of people have had to suffer. If the phone EVER stops ringing, I'll be able to catch up in EMAIL in about 6 hours. I have well over 100 letters pending right now. Sir Francis, Thank you for your kind comments about the data files being available. I'm personally very gratified that it's getting such a nice reception. Targa's would have made the issue VERY LARGE, and many of the Atarians here are a) quite cost conscious, and b) using systems that can't show 24 bit color anyway. So GIFs seemed like a good compromise to give them a taste of the system, while making the Targa's available as well. I'll see if I can get a picture of the unit in a data format soon. The Associated Press had a terrific full color picture that was picked up in the local newspaper that we get here in my little town. It was GLORIOUS, with a beautiful view of the Jaguar with the CD Player mounted on it, with Sam Tramiel in the background. For the record, that was done by the Alameda Newspaper Group, featuring The Valley Times. best regards, Bob Brodie PS- Travis -> a woman????? ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 62 Tue Aug 24, 1993 AEO.MAG [?] Travis [?] at 01:40 EDT Gee Bob, What else??? And just why do you insist on the singular? --Curious ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 63 Tue Aug 24, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 04:57 EDT I checked the TGA's out on the Cyrel Card! Yozzers! Theres a big difference between 24bit color and 8 bit color. Dithering helps but if you can't view the TGA in True Color your really missing the big picture. The GIF's probably look pretty good in Spectrum mode. BTW, I used GEMview 2.40 to view them. I'm impressed... where is this place... New York?:-) Now, if Atari where to make a Falcon add on board and a VME card... ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 64 Tue Aug 24, 1993 STEVE-J [Steve @ NLS] at 05:01 EDT The Targa files are in Targa Type 2, 24-bit format. Re-converting them with GEM-View will yield Targa Type 10, 24-bit format files. At first, I thought maybe Photochrome could only handle a specific type of Targa file. The idea that Photochrome needs 320x200 (and maybe smaller) Targa files in order to work could also be correct. There is another program called 24_BITS.TOS which will load and display .RAW and .TGA files (in much the same way Photochrome does), but it chokes on the Jaguar .TGA files (it bombs when it tries to display). Anyone know if there's a .TGA to .RAW converter? FAIRWEATHER - Tiny Toon games have been available on the NES, SNES, and Genesis systems for many months. BOB-BRODIE - But the whole point about getting the Targas is to see the screenshots as close to reality as possible -- GEM-View on an ST/STE will dither the 24-bit pics to 16 colors, which is pretty dismal (and pointless!). ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 65 Tue Aug 24, 1993 D.MCNAMEE [Dan @ Atari] at 11:13 EDT Tony, S-VHS connection is what you want/need in a new TV since that is the best connection for many new products (laser disk, VCRs, etc). My personal recommendation in a TV is a Sony XBR2. I have a Sony XBR (no 2) and I love it. Plan on spending at least $1000 for a 27" XBR2. Dan ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 66 Tue Aug 24, 1993 K.DRAKE [Sir Fransis] at 19:36 EDT AEO.MAG, No, I've got a Performa 405. I'm thinking the problem has to do with different aspect ratios (my pixels are square.) I think you should redo the block diagram in some vector format. Vector files aren't that large, so you could do one in an Atari format. (I'll do one for the mac and post it over there.) There was one page near the end of the article that mentioned 24-bit color. Was that a typo? For your chart, I believe the Genesis is about .7 MIPS. I've got to find some old docs to make sure, though. Any word on how many DMA channels the Jag has? With everything on the bus, it would be great if everything could access it's own piece of RAM independantly of other components. Still Sailing, Sir Fransis ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 67 Tue Aug 24, 1993 WETMORE [Tony] at 20:46 EDT Travis, More Targas! More Targas! [;-) Are you still in the process of uploading the Targa pics, or have you uploaded all the ones you have? I've got the Raiden, Kasumi Ninja, and Tiny Toons already - were those the only ones you had? I'm especially interested in shots from Checkered Flag II, Cybermorph and Club Drive. Did they make any shots from those games yet? -Tony ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 68 Tue Aug 24, 1993 D.COOKE [Rob] at 22:57 EDT This may be a stupid question but oh well,will the Jaguar CDROM work on the Falcon030 too? Also someone said that the Cinepak technology was for both the Falcon030 and Jaguar so would the Jaguar's mjpeg cartridge plug into the Falcon030 cartridge port also? Didn't Atari redesign the cartridge port on the Falcon030? -Rob ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 69 Tue Aug 24, 1993 RHETT [Mr.Anderson] at 23:37 EDT Rob, Cinepak isn't MPEG. Cinepak is a software video player that will work without MPEG hardware. --Rhett ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 70 Wed Aug 25, 1993 AEO.MAG [?] Travis [?] at 01:50 EDT //// Sir Fransis, First, an apology. In my last message to you it may have looked like I was saying, "Booooo Sir Fransis." - I hit the wrong key when sending the message and tried to ZModem send - which didn't work here obviously, but GEnie saw the B00000 code and thought I wanted to tell you that.... I'll try to get a copy of that block diagram in a vector format. (Hey, Bob!) No promises, though. The Jag does have 32-bit graphics - the 24-bit has to have been a typo. Sorry. About the number of DMA channels that the Jaguar has. That's a good question. Maybe someone will ask Bob and/or Sam Tramiel that in one of their RTCs. Even when AEO was "officially" and Atari Corp. magazine, the one thing we couldn't get any hard info on was the Jaguar. After reading the last AEO, you now know all that I know about the Jaguar. //// Tony, When I'm done here, I'll upload a set of Evolution Dino-Dudes Targas (four, I think at 158K). After that, the well is dry. We'll all have to wait until Atari releases more. I'll be just as impatient as the rest of y'all. --Travis ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 71 Wed Aug 25, 1993 J.ROY18 [Jonathan] at 02:03 EDT Remember, if you have a Falcon, you can use GemTarga to pop TGA files up in a MultiTos compatible true-color window. :D I converted the two Ninja targa's into 256 color GIF files. Is it ok (legal?) to upload them? One is 40K, the other is about 20K. They look pretty good in PhotoChrome. (Since PC won't load the Ninja pics, I ran it through Utah Raster Toolkit.) The Raiden pics look great in PC. It'll be cool when one of my friends snag a Jaguar from NY. :) ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 72 Wed Aug 25, 1993 WETMORE [Tony] at 02:46 EDT Travis, Thanks, all your work is appreciated! [:-) -Tony (I think I need to buy at least 2 Jaguars, if they can be ComLynx'ed together... Thanks, Atari. [;-)) ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 73 Wed Aug 25, 1993 STEVE-J [Steve @ NLS] at 03:15 EDT BOB-BRODIE - Sam in the background??? What a way to ruin an otherwise perfectly good picture! ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 74 Wed Aug 25, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 05:43 EDT Sir Fransis, Actually 24bit graphics would be accurate as far as the images go. Normally in 32bit graphics, 8bits are control bits for various effects and have nothing to do with the actual image itself. 24bits is all you need to generate a 16million color image. Your basically creating a range of 0 to 255 for each of the three colors RED, GREEN and BLUE. 8 bits gives you the possibility of mixing 0 and 1 combinations for a total of 256 different combinations (2 to the 8th power). Then you can mix those 256 combinations to generate your onscreen colors so... 256 x 256 x 256 gives you 1677216 combinations or colors! ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 75 Wed Aug 25, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 09:57 EDT So yesterday Nintendo held a press conference to announce that it is "designing" a 64 bit home videogame console to "leapfrog" the competition. Hmmm seems they stole that "leapfrog" hyperbole from Atari didn't they? ;-) Anyway I thought it was pretty funny that they have to call a press conference just to announce that they are now _beginning_ to _design_ a system that has no present prototype and won't be available until 1995. They also stole a page from Atari's book by announcing that this will be a co-venture with Silicon Graphics. Since they didn't have any prototype to show, they tried to impress the reporters with a scene of a flying dinosoar (probably an outtake from Jurassic Park) running on a Silicon Graphics workstation. Big Deal. But of course the reporters ate it up and swallowed it whole. It was big news in the L.A. Times with only a passing reference to the fact that Atari's system will be ready in "January" 1993. ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 76 Wed Aug 25, 1993 JIM.K [Jim~ST Sysop] at 13:06 EDT Messages #2-131 have been archived and are in the library-File #29805. JAGUAR_1.ARC 6/5/93 to 8/14/93. Jim Kudron 25Aug93 ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 77 Wed Aug 25, 1993 R.WELTER2 at 19:20 EDT Hi All- Just a quick question. I have a plain 1040 STe, and I was wondering- is it worth downloading the TARGA pics for me? Are they any better than GIFs would be in ST medium res? Rich ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 78 Wed Aug 25, 1993 D.COOKE [Rob] at 21:23 EDT Hi Rich,I don't think you would want to bother with the Targas if you have an unmodified STe.I don't think you would get anymore colors but I think some guy was talking earlier about trying to upload Photochrome compatible versions of the Targas so you might look our for those. -Rob ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 79 Thu Aug 26, 1993 M.POCHE [Mick] at 01:36 EDT Rich & Rob - I believe I'm the one Rob was referring to about having PhotoChrome compatible Targa's of the Jag pics. I haven't uploaded them yet, as I haven't gotten permission from Darlah to upload duplicates of the originals (although I do have the OK from Bob Brodie). I'll E-mail her and see what she says. I see that the Jag logo has been uploaded again in other formats though. The GIF's don't even compare to the PhotoChrome conversions on a stock ST(e). - Mick ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 80 Thu Aug 26, 1993 S.SCHULZ2 [STEFFAN] at 04:06 EDT David, I saw a similar article in Nor Cal in the San JOse Mercury News. Although it seemed to be a little less biased than what you mentioned. It compared each companies strong and weak points. Guess what Atari's was... The article tended to write off Nintendos claim of this new system as being an uncertainty tactic. Just before competition releases a product, they -announce- a so- called better product-in- development hoping the consumer waits for it. The article also stated that the Jag will only be released in NY and the Bay Area (San Fran) before Xmas. ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 81 Thu Aug 26, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 06:32 EDT David, I'm glad you noticed that as well! I saw something that really gave Nintendo and SGI more credit then ILM for the dinosaurs.:-) In reality the animators should have gotten the credit. If I where Atari, I'd make my own dinosaur and hook it to the joystick so you can control it. Let some reporters prance it around eating little Mario's (Not the DMC version:-]). Just looks like some people are getting nervous. ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 82 Thu Aug 26, 1993 R.WELTER2 at 18:57 EDT Rob Thanks for the reply. I get a little confused any more about all these different picture formats. All these .GIF, .TN*, etc. I'm never sure what I can view and what I can't! Rich Mick I guess I'll have to wait for the Photochrome versions then. What viewer handles photochrome? I mean on my unmodified STe. And, what kind of mod can be DONE to a 1040 STE? Rich ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 83 Fri Aug 27, 1993 M.POCHE [Mick] at 03:13 EDT Rob (and anyone else interested), I now have permission from Bob Brodie, AEO, and Darlah to upload the PhotoChrome conversions I have made of the Jaguar screen shots. To let you all in on how I managed to get the Targa's into a PhotoChrome compatible resolution; I used Phoenix Renderer from Lexicor. I just loaded them in as background images and "rendered" them down to 320x200x16m. It's not exactly what the program is designed to do, but it does a fine job of it. Anyway, I'm getting off topic here (...sirens in the distance). I'll upload the PhotoChrome versions (with the viewer) tonight! - Mick ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 84 Sat Aug 28, 1993 C.CILLO1 [Chris] at 01:34 EDT Will the photochrome versions be better than the Targas? Chris ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 85 Sat Aug 28, 1993 M.POCHE [Mick] at 03:56 EDT Chris - If you have a ST(e) without any type of graphics card installed, then yes, the PhotoChrome pics will look better than viewing the Targas with, for example, GEM-View because PhotoChrome can display many more colors thanks to some fancy programming trickery. On another subject, I too am a little concerned that all of the pictures we've seen so far are from "platform" type games. Having seen a bit of tape from a 3DO racing game, I've got to hope that Atari has something a little better (meaning fast, 3D, shaded graphics). - Mick ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 86 Sat Aug 28, 1993 J.BUDIL [Jonathan] at 09:51 EDT > I've got to hope that Atari has something a little better (meaning fast, 3D, > shaded graphics). I think in the Jaguar topic in the Scorpia RT, someone mentioned a game like this was coming. --Jonathan in Normal ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 87 Sat Aug 28, 1993 F.OLIVAS [F.Olivas] at 12:09 EDT Dear Mr. Brodie (hope I'm not being too formal here), How do I use GEMView? I d/l'ed GEmView.APP and don't know how to use it. Do I rename it or what? I tried INSTALL APPLICATION and this failed also. Any help would be appreciated. Fred O. ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 88 Sat Aug 28, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 17:51 EDT Fred, Did you extract all the files? Have you tried clicking on the application from the desktop? Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 89 Sat Aug 28, 1993 ARCHIVIST [Charlie] at 20:38 EDT Fred, the APP extention is just another way of saying PRG. It's used in Europe much more often than here (in fact I can't think of any programs origination here in NA that use the APP extension) but it will work just fine on your machine. Just double click on the APP file to start the program. Charlie/sysop ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 90 Sat Aug 28, 1993 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 21:59 EDT Charlie >Fred, the APP extention is just another way of saying PRG. It's used >in Europe much more often than here (in fact I can't think of any >programs origination here in NA that use the APP extension) For your information, Data Diet Info Editor and Data Diet Tools. ~~~~Brian ... Written on Saturday 28 August 1993 at 10:25 p.m. ADT ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 91 Sun Aug 29, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 00:15 EDT I believe APP is used when a Program also runs as an Accesory. It should work fine if you just rename it .PRG. ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 92 Sun Aug 29, 1993 ARCHIVIST [Charlie] at 00:51 EDT Brian, ok. :-) Never used either of those myself, so I wasn't aware of it. The use of APP is rair, though. That's what I was trying to say. Charlie/sysop ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 93 Sun Aug 29, 1993 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 10:15 EDT Joey > I believe APP is used when a Program also runs as an Accesory. It >should work fine if you just rename it .PRG. That's not a hard and fast rule. No need to rename just run it. Just teasing you Charlie [grin]. ~~~~Brian ... Written on Sunday 29 August 1993 at 10:23 a.m. ADT ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 94 Sun Aug 29, 1993 JWEAVERJR [John@RSCARDS] at 12:14 EDT As I remember, "APP" was the extension used for GEM program files in the IBM version, where GEM originated. ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 95 Sun Aug 29, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 17:29 EDT My understanding of APP is that it is a major program. I haven't seen many GTPs, by the way; anyone know of any? (GEM-Takes-Parameters ...) al ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 96 Sun Aug 29, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 20:17 EDT Brain, Your right, it works named APP too. I just always rename everything so it match's.:-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 97 Sun Aug 29, 1993 K.DRAKE [Sir Fransis] at 22:44 EDT Mick, When everyone found out how well the Jag could do polygon games, the first question in mine and a lot of people's mind was,"If it can do polygons _really_ great, what kind of 2D games can it do? (I was asked this question on AOL) Although I figured that if it out foxes StarFox, it could do regular type games better than the SNES, I wanted the pictures to prove it (and I got 'em). I mean, 3D is nice but there's not much you can do with it on a flat 2D screen. No doubt the 3D pix are coming, I believe that as long as the carrot is kept just out of reach, we'll keep nibbling! Still Sailing, Sir Fransis ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 98 Mon Aug 30, 1993 M.POCHE [Mick] at 03:41 EDT >I mean, 3D is nice but there's not much you can do with it on a flat 2D >screen. > No doubt the 3D pix are coming, I believe that as long as the carrot is > kept just out of reach, we'll keep nibbling! I want the @!%&$@! carrot!!! And I have to disagree a bit about 3D on a 2D screen. Perhaps it's just a personal taste thing, but I would much rather fight/explore/whatever in a 3D environment than just moving left and right (or up and down). And I hope that the games that the recent pics came from do have parallax scrolling. At least it gives 2D a little depth. Now, anyone want to tell me about Cybermorph? I read a message in the Internet archives mentioning how _awesome_ it is, but don't recall mention of it here. It was described as a "showcase" game for the Jaguar. - Mick "Carrot chaser" ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 99 Mon Aug 30, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:03 EDT Hey guys... The Latest EE Times is out, and it has all kinds of nifty info in it I'm sure you'll all be interested in. Without further ado, here's a quick synopsis: Nintendo and SGI: New Super Video Brothers? Article about Nintendo and SGI announcement. Highlights include: "Nintendo, by acquiring the giant's [SGI] advanced 64 bit 3D technologies, hopes to leapfrog the next wave of videogame systems." "Nintendo's first step will be to launch a 64 bit MIPS based arcade game next year." System: - 3D graphics - 24 bit color - CD quality audio - 64 bit Microprocessor @ 100+ MHZ - 100 Mips and 100 Mflops - capable of generating 100,000 polygons (50 pixel meshed triangles) per second. [Whatever _that_ means!!! -TB] - Real-Time anti-aliased texture mapping - 128 bit bus - 0.6 micron silicon process Apparently, Time-Warner has contracted with SGI to supply this same "consumer" version of the MIPS CPU for use in digital cable set-top boxes. Kinda sounds like Time-Warner is not committed to one system, which could be bad news for us. The writer goes out of his way to talk about how this announcement will hurt 3DO and Sega's new machines, and does not mention Atari, or the Jaguar _at all_ (go figure). Trip Hawkins rants and raves about how Nintendo isn't smart enough to pull it off, and SGI is not capable of making their stuff cheap enough. Industry observers worry about the cost of the thing being low as they say, and that it will be a DRAM hog which might cause a shortage. Nintendo hadn't decided if it was going to be a CD based system. To make it cheap, engineers have decided to strip down the 'overkill' from the SGI processor. They decided not to do anything to the sound system, but there were things they would be removing from the graphics hardware, to make it cheap. Someone at Nintendo was blabbing about how R&D costs were insignificant, when you think of the 10 million units they will sell annually. ---- skip 2 pages of advertisements ---- Atari Demos it's 64 bit RISC based Video Game (small point size) JAGUAR GETS SET TO POUNCE (Large point headline) This article contains most of what was already printed in AEO, so I won't repeat that stuff. It _DOES_ have a really nice FuLl CoLoR rendition of the Jaguar Block Diagram too. No game pics, sorry. "Atari's announcement upstages last week's Nintendo-SGI unveiling of a rival 64 bit #D system" [How can you unveil VAPORWARE?!?!?!? -TB] "...will reach the market with 5 titles by November." Tom is a 208 pin package. Jerry is a 144 pin package. Atari DSP capable of wavetable synthesis, FM synthesis, FM Sample synthesis, and AM synthesis. The ASICS for Tom and Jerry will be made by one japanese semiconductor manufacturer, and one U.S. semiconductor manufacturer. "The U.S. foundry is believed to be Motorola."!!! - - - END - - - Commentary: Any thoughts? Questions? My opinion is that Nintendo and SGI made a big hubbub about a piece of vapor, to hurt the Jaguar sales. It's up to Atari to use their 1 year head- start to firmly entrench themselves in the market. They should try and have over 100 titles out at this time next year, so that the Nintendo-SGI unit meets the same fate as the Lynx did in the face of the Game-Boy. ("Waah! Waaah! I waana Game-Boy! This stoopid Lynx ain't no good! Billy's gotta Game Boy, take this junk back, it doesn't play 'Super Mario Brothers and Sisters Incest Fest 3: The mystery of the golden garter'! Take it back! Waah! Waah!" you know what I mean) _______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 100 Tue Aug 31, 1993 RHETT [Mr.Anderson] at 00:25 EDT Thunderbird, Typical Nintendo move. They did a similar thing when the Sega CD came out. Here's what I think will happen. Nintendo marketing will decide how much they can sell a new system for. SGI and Nintendo will scale down the hardware to meet that price. Compare this with 3DO approach: Get the machine the way you want it, then figure out what you can afford to sell it for. Nintendo has shown that their approach works--they're a smart company. 3DO hasn't proven anything yet. But who knows...maybe both approaches work. --Rhett ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 101 Tue Aug 31, 1993 K.DRAKE [Sir Fransis] at 00:27 EDT Well Tbird, I remember reading specs on 2 different CDROM systems and am not impressed anymore unless they show some sort of prototype. Heck, even NEC has at least got a 32-bit motherboard finished (IronMan). Also, I've noticed that while Atari had a special chip set developed for use specifically with their system parameters, all competing systems use stock off-the-shelf (or off-the-shelf and modified) RISC chips. I think Atari has an advantage there because the entire system was built to spec rather than acquiring a chip and making a system around it. Trip is scared out of his wits! He's going to be severely challenged in a market _he_ made the public aware of! Mick, Cybermorph _would_ really be a showcase game (pack-in?). I hesitate to use the terminology, but it's a behind the ship view like the one in StarFox. Unlike StarFox, the ship can travel in any direction. The "morph" comes in because the ship's skin can change to meet conditions (ie, to slow down, the rear section becomes a scoop or when accelerating it streamlines to reduce resistance). To me, it sounds like a 3D Defender (because you have to rescue survivors). I enjoy 3D games but I'm not sure how well they'd look as static pictures. At least we do see that they're working on a wide variety of games. And parallax scrolling is a MUST! (O.K. I'll let them slide with Dino Dudes!) AEOMAG, How about a short 256 color .gl or .dl animation file? If all platforms have players, that's how I would recommend distributing the 3D game pix. Have a small loop of Cybermorph flying low over the surface and destroying an enemy then repeat. I'd like it! {:-) Still Sailing, Sir Fransis ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 102 Tue Aug 31, 1993 STEVE-J [Steve @ NLS] at 07:33 EDT RHETT - So far, the predecessors to 3DO (CDTV and CD-I -- I put them in the same class due to price, although the computing power of 3DO is obviously FAR better) haven't faired well (even with pretty hefty marketing -- in the case of CD-I, at least). I don't know that many people that are willing to spend more than a few hundred dollars on any sort of home video entertainment center (and I've lived in an upper middle-class world most of my life!). No matter how much they market any 3DO system, I can't imagine it coming anywhere close to dominating the market simply based on the estimated price of $600-$800. On the other hand, though, no matter how comparatively little the Jaguar cost and more advanced it appears, it will end up being about as big of a failure as the Lynx if there's not enough marketing behind it. K.DRAKE - I don't know if I'd say that Mr. Hawkins is "scared out of his wits" but from what I've heard, it sounds like he grossly underestimated what the Jaguar's capabilities were. And what you said about the CPU's is a good point -- Atari also probably gets the Jaguar chips cheaper since it just has to pay for the manufacturing cost of them (e.g. Motorola can sell 680x0 processors for whatever they want to get as tidy a profit as they want on them -- what's Nintendo's 1995 64-bit RISC machine gonna cost if they have to buy/license the MIPS chips from SGI?). ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 103 Tue Aug 31, 1993 AEO.MAG [?] Travis [?] at 11:43 EDT //// T-Bird, Thanks for the EET news - interesting data on the N/SGI machine. Yeah, they made this announcement to steal some of the Jaguar's thunder - typical capitalism, nothing more. If enough Jaguar games do get released in the next year, I believe Atari could be in a position to dominate once again. They did it before with inferior hardware (2600 vs Coleco & Mattel) and they can do it again with _superior_ hardware. //// Sir Fransis, I'll see if Bob can lean on whomever to come up with a Cybermorph animation. We received some complaints about releasing the 256 color GIFs, and I'd like to investigate doing any future releases in full 24-bit color first. //// All, With that in mind, how would you best go about generating a high pixel count, 24-bit color animation that's under a meg in size? Or am I too worried about filesizes? --Travis ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 104 Tue Aug 31, 1993 RHETT [Mr.Anderson] at 11:57 EDT I don't know if I buy this price advantage that Atari supposedly has on its RISC chip. I've heard that the ARM costs 3DO $25. It's a relatively old chip, having been used in Acorn's Archemides computer for years. R&D costs (I assume) were overcome a long time ago. SGI is another matter, but Nintendo is know for designing and making their own chips. They'll probably just liscense SGI's technology and scale it down. Heck, they even made their own clone of the 6502 (minus a few instructions) to save costs. Nintendo knows how to cost- reduce. Atari (I assume) put a lot of money into designing their chip. I assume it's all been written off as R&D losses. So it's kind of hard to say how much the chips "cost" them. When you're putting out a game system, all the chips become cheap because of the volume involved. Heck, people put DSPs into Nintendo cartridges! --Rhett ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 105 Tue Aug 31, 1993 RHETT [Mr.Anderson] at 12:14 EDT Travis, Atari dominated vs. Coleco and Mattel? Yeah, but the Atari came out first. And they dominated based on their software (coin-op conversions were among the top sellers). Atari was fading by the time Coleco came out with their system, and Coleco was beating Atari for awhile (until they lost their pants with the Adam computer) as Atari died. Besides, if your point is that someone can dominate with inferior hardware, then couldn't market-savvy Sega and Nintendo continue to dominate with _their_ inferior hardware? Regarding the Jag screens, why don't you JPEG the 24-bit files instead of GIFing them? --Rhett ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 106 Tue Aug 31, 1993 J.NESS [Jim] at 16:34 EDT ARCSHELL could be considered to be a .GTP program, since it is GEM-based, and accepts parameters. Same with EdHak. Maybe STeno? -JN ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 107 Tue Aug 31, 1993 K.DRAKE [Sir Fransis] at 20:07 EDT Steve, I just want to know why he would say Nintendo isn't smart enough to pull it off when they kept the 8-bit NES going for a year before they did the SNES! Nintendo is a technological tiddly-winker but a marketing monster. Also, Atari can license their chipset to others and make money from the hardware, software, and licensing fees. Nintendo's chip is from someone else so they couldn't do that. If Motorola is doing the Jag chips (I think they are), then they could be practically _giving away_ the 68000 because they're being paid to do the other chip (I'd guess that they were building the DSP). Plus, the chip is cheap to start with! Still Sailing, Sir Fransis ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 108 Tue Aug 31, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:38 EDT Sir Francis: One of the problems with 3D games is that the graphics are inherently less detailed than platform games. You can't easily make a ship with little rivets on the outside, men waving in the windows, and little flaming damaged areas with ship's mechanisms seen through the holes in the skin, like you can with little 2D drawings. When StarFox came out, I heard a lot of comments from SNES fans about how 'wierd' the graphics are. I even heard the sales guy at a local store making excuses for why the graphics were (in his words) "not very good". (He said something about the billions of 'views' they had to store in the one cart, or some bogus crap like that). 3D games basically look 'ok' in static views. The public has different expectations of what games should look like, and they have to be 'taught' what a GOOD 3D game really IS. ____________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 109 Tue Aug 31, 1993 AEO.MAG [?] Travis [?] at 23:20 EDT Rhett, I agree with your history - my point is that it may happen again, in reverse. And this time Atari will have the superior hardware. The amount and quality of software is just as important as a platform's hardware, and by the time of the Jaguar's launch, the number of Jaguar titles will be dwarfed by the already available others. Quality-wise, I'm very hopeful that the Jaguar games will blow away anything else on the market - even on Day One. When Jaguars go nationwide, sales for Nintendo and Sega _won't_ dry up. It may take a year or more before sales of Jaguars surpass those of either of the other two. (I know I'm leaving out the rest of the pack - but I believe that the Jaguar could be the also-rans' death knell.) By late '94, when I believe the Jaguar will be firmly entrenched, Nintendo is due to bring out their next generation of machine. (The one announced last week.) I would imagine Sega has a similar machine in the works as well, and can have it out in a like timeframe. Unless these machines offer some sort of backward compatibility with their bases of existing 16-bit software, they will be the ones starting from a low base of software. A very simple set of projections on my part. I have not passed the test for Marketing Genius yet. :-) Am I missing something? --Travis ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 110 Tue Aug 31, 1993 E.JOLLEY [Eric] at 23:33 EDT > When StarFox came out, I heard a lot of comments from SNES fans about how >'wierd' the graphics are. I even heard the sales guy at a local store making >excuses for why the graphics were (in his words) "not very good". (He said >something about the billions of 'views' they had to store in the one cart, or >some bogus crap like that). Thunderbird, That is hilarious! Some people have no idea how polygon graphics work. I can't believe games like Starfox get touted as "cutting edge" when games just as good and better have been available for the ST for years. I agree that polygon graphics will not be replacing traditional sprites in the near future. I do hope the 3D games for the Jaguar are top notch, and with all that hardware, they should be. -Eric ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 111 Tue Aug 31, 1993 RHETT [Mr.Anderson] at 23:47 EDT Thunderbird, StarFox doesn't have much texture mapping. Jaguar and 3DO 3-D games will look much better. In my opinion, they'll look better than 2-D games. (I'm not arguing with you--I think I'm agreeing. :-> ) Travis, Boy, you sure are optimistic. I'm a little more pessimistic than that, although I would love to see Atari make a comeback (I still have "Have you played Atari today?" dreams. I like everything I've heard about the machine (hardware-wise) and I especially like that there's no C compiler (high-level languages encourage the wrong kind of programmer for this kind of machine, in my opinion), but I'm doubtful that it's going to get much more than anemic developer support. If it does well, then I'll try to talk my company into letting me develop for it. Until then, mark me down as a sceptic. --Rhett ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 112 Wed Sep 01, 1993 K.DRAKE [Sir Fransis] at 01:37 EDT AEO.MAG, If the pix were animated, then I could see 256 colors being the max. I know _my_ computer couldn't animate 24-bit pix (unless you converted them to Quicktime!) But as far as stills go, I'd say give us the max and let _us_ convert down if we need to. Is CinePak a standard format that you could store the animation in? Still Sailing, Sir Fransis ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 113 Wed Sep 01, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:44 EDT Jim, You're right. In fact, there are a lot of PRGs that act like GTPs, but they're not named GTPs. STeno works like a GTP, yes. I's the text editor I have installed in some apps, and parameters are passed to STeno. I think STalker works the same way -- pass a BackTALK script to it, and it runs the script. Oh, heck, the original Flash and, of course, Flash II, are GTP! Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 114 Wed Sep 01, 1993 E.WINDELL [GENE] at 04:39 EDT Travis, I think your message 109 was right on target. Rhett, How long do you think it would take you to develop a killer game for the Jaguar, working alone and measured in months? Gene ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 115 Wed Sep 01, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 04:49 EDT Travis, Wouldn't a 1 Meg 24bit animation be about 6 frames?:-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 116 Wed Sep 01, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 06:01 EDT Does anyone out there know enough about the speed of these rendering doohickeys to give an accurate comparison of the Jaguar to the Nintendo/SGI Vaportainment System, based on the specs announced? I mean 100,000 polygons/sec is pretty hefty of a sum, but how does that relate to the 850,000 pixels/sec of the jaguar? With a little creative specmanship, Atari could say the Jag is capable of 850,000 polygons/sec (provided each polygon were 1 pixel in size). So, can _anyone_ make an assesment of the capabilities of these (or any other) machine without media catch-phrases and specmanship? Thanks. __________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 117 Wed Sep 01, 1993 RHETT [Mr.Anderson] at 11:54 EDT Gene, >>How long do you think it would take you to develop a killer game for the Jaguar, working alone and measured in months? Hmm. Depends on the game. Maybe 18 months for a killer game, six months for a crap game. Adding programmers to the project decreases the amount of time up to a point. My favorite is to have to or three programmers, so communication is easy and boredom stays away. --Rhett ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 118 Wed Sep 01, 1993 G.LABREC [Greg @ Atari] at 13:09 EDT Thunderbird, You printed an error in your last message. You stated that the rendering speed of the Jaguar was 850,000 pixels/sec. The actual speed is greater than 850,000,000 pixels/sec. That is >850 million compared to 3DO's 64 million. SNES and Genesis currently weigh in at 1 million. ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 119 Wed Sep 01, 1993 K.DRAKE [Sir Fransis] at 17:35 EDT I saw a television show on discovery that showed people working on SGI workstations. I never knew that stuff was that cool. Bad thing about it, though, it that all that they showed was old hat to the Jag. Tbird, I know what you mean. Although the SGI chip is powerful, Nintendo will be engineering a "stunted" version. That 100,000 polys may be with no shading, no texture mapping, no _real_ power, so it sounds good. Also, why would they produce specs that didn't easily compare to the competitions' (Threedio, Jag) specs _unless_ they were intentionally trying to hide a weakness in their (not SGI's) design. I mean, a 128-bit bus? Is that because of bigger speed increases or is it like the Threedio's CD-ROM, it just can't operate with less? Still Sailing, Sir Fransis -oh, JPEG.........JagPEG, I GET IT!! =-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 120 Wed Sep 01, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 18:32 EDT That would make the Jag able to do 1.3 million polygons per sec. ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 121 Wed Sep 01, 1993 SIERRAN [] /\/exus [] at 23:17 EDT A GIF of the Jaguar is now available in the file libraries. File number is 29875. ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 122 Thu Sep 02, 1993 K.DRAKE [Sir Fransis] at 00:17 EDT Tbird, I also believe that 100 Mflops number is a "peak" spec. Going by the chip they're basing it on, there's no way in pratical applications that it could sustain 100 Mflops IMHO. Still Sailing, Sir Fransis ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 123 Thu Sep 02, 1993 K.DRAKE [Sir Fransis] at 01:15 EDT SIERRAN, Now THAT's a cool looking system. I was wondering how they were going to put a keypad on a pad-type controller. It's just cool. Congrats, Atari, I believe you have _got_ to be one of the WCES's products of the show! So, does the cd-rom sit _in_ that little depression? And I believe that's the expansion port cover on the left side, right? Still Sailing, (at an oh-so-happy clip) Sir Fransis ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 124 Thu Sep 02, 1993 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 01:50 EDT Sir Fransis... Atari's can do .dl or .gl? Next you will say we can do MPEG? Travis, Thats late 95 for the new Nintendo, not 94! Rhett, Why not get one of you superiors to call Atari NOW. After Atari gets an NDA signed, they might find out something that would make them want to start developing Jag games now. Wayne, The stated specs from the Delphi Jaguar confrence say the Jag can do "50 million Gourad Shaded Polygons a second". Whatever that means. I will be real interested to see Atari's developer list when it is made public later this month. -----------> Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 125 Thu Sep 02, 1993 RHETT [Mr.Anderson] at 02:14 EDT Sam, >>Why not get one of your superiors to call Atari NOW? Because it's not the hardware that I doubt. The Lynx hardware is great (it was designed by the 3DO guys, after all), but I sure am glad I'm not doing Lynx products. I want to see the Jaguar in the local Toys 'R Us (local for me is Eugene, OR). I want to see the commercials. I want to see the games. I want to see who the other developers are. If the Jaguar succeeds, great. I haven't seens Atari market anything well for years. But I have seen Nintendo and Sega market. I'd program one of their new machines at the drop of a hat. --Rhett ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 126 Thu Sep 02, 1993 M.LYDA [mike] at 19:49 EDT Rhett.... > I want to see the Jaguar in the local Toys 'R Us > I want to see the commercials. I want to see the games. I want > to see who the other developers are. None of these will happen unless somebody writes games for the machines. Even Nintendo wouldn't spend money advertising a product that they didn't already have developers for. I haven't seen a _single_ ad for 3DO _OR_ seen one in a local Toys 'R Us..... but the developers are sure jumping on it. Atari has already announced that they are planning on spending $3 million to advertise in NY and San Fran. before Christmas.... and announced that they would be shipping 50,000 units..... I think it was pointed out here that that's $60 per unit? For a machine that retails for $200... but I can _guarantee_ that they won't lay that amount out for the Jaguar unless they have some developers. I'm expecting to not see any big name developers on this one.. because of the way Nintendo and Sega do business they won't want to put their future w/them on the line.. but you might see some new faces. Have you read "Game Over" yet? And you would still support Nintendo? ehheheheheheheh ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 127 Thu Sep 02, 1993 RHETT [Mr.Anderson] at 21:19 EDT mike, >>None of these will happen unless somebody writes games for the machines. That's my point exactly. That's why I'm pessimistic about the Jaguar. Developers don't seem to trust Atari. Why would I want to be the one to talk my company into supporting a machine no one else supports? I repeat: I want to see the Jaguar in the local Toys 'R Us. I want to see the commercials. I want to see the games. I want to see who the other developers are. >>...the developers are sure jumping on [3DO]. Of course they are. The 3DO is perceived as the future of gaming, with its ties to the entertainment business, the telephone companies, and cable TV. Here's what a developer might be thinking: "Well, if the 3DO flops, my programmers and designers will still be ahead, because they'll have dealt with a system which is probably much like the one that _does_ succeed." There are two approaches to business (and life, as well). First, the safety in numbers theory. If other developers are doing it, we should be doing it, too. Second, the contrarian model. If no one else is doing it, we've got the whole market. I work at a company which seems to subscribe to the safety in numbers theory. --Rhett ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 128 Thu Sep 02, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 22:50 EDT Do you blame the developers for not trusting Atari? I mean after the way they treat them, who would want to ever trust them again. Once you are a developer, it's like you do what they say or else they threaten you with all kinds of stuff. Ask Double Click. Ask all the other developers that had enough and went somewhere else. They ones they will get probably don't know Atari's reputation or they are diehard Atari. Atari knows real well how to recruit developers for Amiga, IBM, Apple, etc. I keep praying for that miracle to happen but, I don't believe anyone wants to buy Atari. ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 129 Fri Sep 03, 1993 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 01:11 EDT I can remember back when a programmer would write for a system because he wanted his work to be the BEST it could be, not because everybody else was doing it. When Everybody and thier brother started writing games for the 2600, the quality of the games took a steep nosedive. It's not enough to be a sheep in the flock. Someone has to stand up and Lead. It's the "lets wait and see what everyone else does" attitude that leads to mediocrity. This isn't directed at you in particular, Rhett, I'm just venting some frustration. It seems that all the big developers are waiting to see who will take the first step, and while Atari may really try this time around, I don't know how well they will do if a few of the big boys won't come out and play ball. ----------> Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 130 Fri Sep 03, 1993 K.DRAKE [Sir Fransis] at 02:17 EDT A gentleman once told me that there hasn't been a single _great_ person that followed conventional wisdom. I started following Atari 4-5 years ago in a class stock purchasing project. I saw when they failed against Nintendo. I saw the Lynx touted as the next big product. I bought one. I saw the Lynx fade to the Game Gear. I heard so much great and wonderful news about the Falcon then it was delayed and I bought something else eventually. Given their track record, they must be doing something _right_ among all the wrong things because they've stayed in business. Companies have come and gone in the time that Atari has endured. I don't see Atari spending $3 million on junk when they don't have _much_ cash. People who don't like Atari because of the way they were treated, I can't say anything. People who don't like Atari because someone _else_ doesn't like Atari need to take a look for themselves. I'm not saying run to Atari _begging_ for the _priveledge_ to program on the _most exalted_ Jaguar. <:-) Just say,"Well, I'm interested, but skeptical." Listen to what they have to say. If you still don't like it, hey, at least you know for yourself! Still Preac -er- Sailing, /;-) Sir Fransis -because the fewer developers to compete against, the more money _I_ make }:- > ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 131 Fri Sep 03, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 05:57 EDT I heard a rumor that Toys-r-them will carry the Jaguar starting in 1994! Maybe some Atari dude can confirm this! _____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 132 Fri Sep 03, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 10:31 EDT The Ventura, Calif. Toys R Us has completely dropped all Lynx support. No hardware, no software, nada. Way to go Atari. How does this bode for the success of the Jaguar?? ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 133 Fri Sep 03, 1993 TOWNS [John] at 12:08 EDT The programs that are being written today are much more complicated. Users demand much more from software than they ever have. This means that programmers and designers have to spend ALOT of time developing products. They need to target markets that have enough machines to repay them for their work on the products they do. I know you think that developers should write software for a machine because they want to, but most developers have families and need to put food on the table. They aren't going to write software just because some machine is "cool." They are going to write software for a machine that is going to sell enough software to give them an income. Can you blame them for that? Not a chance. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 134 Fri Sep 03, 1993 RHETT [Mr.Anderson] at 12:13 EDT Sam, Hey, I agree with you. But remember, there are a lot of new platforms coming out. Most won't succeed. Programming is my _job_. I support my wife and my child (due in November). At home, I've always programmed unpopular machines. I've never had an Intel machine or an Apple machine. But work is different. Don't get me wrong-- I love my job. I like programming the Sega CD. I get to program in 68000 assembly language. It's a limited machine, so I get a sense of accomplishment out of getting it to jump through hoops. I don't own an Atari. I haven't since my 130XE, so I'm not an Atari advocate. But if it is as good as the specs, I'd like to see it succeed. But I'm not going to risk my family's bread on a system put out by a company with a dubious track record when there are competitors with a proven track record of making the children of America drool. Sir Fransis, >>...there hasn't been a single _great_ person that followed conventional wisdom. I agree. However, it's not my company. I wouldn't (directly) benefit if the Jaguar was a runaway success. I'm a great programmer, but my ultimate goal is to be a novelist. So, for my day job I'll follow conventional wisdom. When I write, I won't. I'll leave it up to my family and friends to decide if I'm a "great person." --Rhett ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 135 Fri Sep 03, 1993 RHETT [Mr.Anderson] at 12:22 EDT John, You took the words right out of Aladdin's mouth. :-> --Rhett ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 136 Fri Sep 03, 1993 K.DRAKE [Sir Fransis] at 16:41 EDT Just wondering, I can't attend tonight's RTC because of work and I was wondering if anyone could ask 2 questions for me. Have any retailers committed to carrying the Jag and Are there any accessories other than the CDROM that are planned (ie, steering wheel, accellerator pedal, Atari-made joy_stick_. They should be yes-no answers so 2 questions should be OK. Thanks, Sir Fransis ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 137 Fri Sep 03, 1993 M.LYDA [mike] at 18:29 EDT Rhett, I see your side now.. why stick your neck out and risk your job right? Makes sense to me. Would calling Atari for developer info hurt anybody? Mike ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 138 Fri Sep 03, 1993 J.ROY18 [Jonathan] at 18:29 EDT Something to keep in mind about the Nintendo announcement. They announced a SNES CD-ROM drive, to counter the publicity the Genesis was getting with theirs. One of my friends, in fact, got a SNES instead since "It'll have a CD-ROM drive soon". Well, it's been a while now, and there's no CD-ROM. :) With the Jaguar and 3D0 announcements, Nintendo once again announced their own product. (Not to be on sale for two years, at least...) Will it ever go on sale? Hmmm. --- Mick, My plan for converting to PCS was to use the Utah Raster Toolkit to scale the tga's down to 320x200. :) Ah well. Too lazy... I'm what happens when you stick a bum in college. :) Rhett, I like the contrarian theory myself. :) Do something noone else is doing, and do it better than they could if they tried! Sir Fransis, Exactly. :) If you are the only developer, you make all the bucks! Now, granted, one developer isn't going to make enough titles to make a system suceed, but still... I'm an idealist. :) (ie: If I was a Lynx developer, you invest BIG money, and you pump out 3-4 high quality games a month. Sure, you are talking huge initial investment. But then, there's no competition, really.) ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 139 Fri Sep 03, 1993 C.OINES1 [Chazz] at 20:06 EDT And from the developer's standpoint, we haven't heard a thing about the fabled SNES CD-ROM. Vapor in a big way... ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 141 Fri Sep 03, 1993 RHETT [Mr.Anderson] at 21:29 EDT Mike, No, it wouldn't hurt to call Atari. Maybe I'll ask for info after my current project is done. --Rhett ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 142 Sat Sep 04, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 05:37 EDT You could always develop a product so good everyone would buy a Jaguar just to play it. Maybe in this country it should be, you should market a game so well everyone will want to buy a Jaguar to play it.:-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 143 Sat Sep 04, 1993 WETMORE [Tony] at 12:02 EDT I was unable to make it to the conference last night - is there going to be a transcript available? Please please? [:-) -Tony ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 144 Sat Sep 04, 1993 F.OLIVAS [F.Olivas] at 13:01 EDT I downloaded the newest version of GEMView and I'm in the pink again. Thanks all for your suggestions. Fred O. ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 145 Sat Sep 04, 1993 ST.LOU [Lou] at 13:11 EDT Tony, the transcript is available in file 29907 - BRODIE13.ARC. Too bad you missed the RTC. Six prizes were given away - Atari Works, MultiTOS (2), Speedo GDOS (2) and Lemmings for the Lynx. ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 146 Sat Sep 04, 1993 RHETT [Mr.Anderson] at 13:17 EDT Joey, Good point. But if I started in December (after my paternity leave), then my game that was so good that everyone would want to buy a Jaguar would probably be done for Christmas 1995. Hmm. Does that sound like a risk to you? --Rhett ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 147 Sat Sep 04, 1993 ARCHIVIST [Charlie] at 14:10 EDT Of course there will be a transcript, Tony. It should be released in the library later today. Charlie/sysop ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 148 Sat Sep 04, 1993 WETMORE [Tony] at 17:28 EDT Lou, Thanks, I grabbed the transcript this afternoon. I wouldn't have been eligible for any of the prizes anyway, most likely. I work for GEnie, and therefore wouldn't have accepted them over clients. Still would have liked to attend though. I'm REALLY looking forward to the Jaguar RTC (this month? has it been scheduled yet?), though. You can BET I'll be there for that one... -Tony ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 149 Sat Sep 04, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 18:06 EDT Rhett, No... No risk there at all.:-) I would think if Atari actually does what they plan over the Christmas holidays, it would be big step in helping ease developers minds. I wouldn't blame anyone for not wanting to develop though, I've heard a lot of developer Atari horror stories. ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 150 Sat Sep 04, 1993 ST.LOU [Lou] at 19:09 EDT Tony, the Jaguar RTC has no firm date but it WILL take place this month. Might even be on a Sunday night. ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 151 Sat Sep 04, 1993 RHETT [Mr.Anderson] at 19:33 EDT Joey, Yes, it's all up to Atari, now. They can do a lot to ease developers' minds. We'll see how it all unfolds this Christmas. --Rhett ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 152 Sun Sep 05, 1993 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 12:45 EDT I was thinking that a real good application for the Jaguar would be as a front end to "Air Warrior" and "MP Battletech" here on GEnie. It could certainly become the front end of choice for the hundreds that play those games regularly and draw quite a few new customers to both Atari AND GEnie, especially with GEnies new pricing structure. (most kids spend more than $3 bucks an hour at an arcade....) The only way to do it would be if Atari were to come up with a modem device that they say can hook to the DSP port. Of course, a game company could always build a simple 2400 baud modem into the cart itself, shouldn't add too much to the cost.... hmmmmmmmmm.... ----------------> Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 153 Mon Sep 06, 1993 E.JOLLEY [Eric] at 15:33 EDT ***************WARNING: LONG POST!!!*************** I came across something funny while reading messages in my local FidoNet echo in the Video Games conference. It's a message from Gwar Konczal, making a little humor out of the recent press releases from Nintendo about their vaporware game systems. I think a little humor is in order with such press releases and this is pretty funny. Beginning Gwar's Message: --------------------------------------------------------------------- Net 311 / Video Games, #42 of 200 Date: 03 Sep 93 09:02:00 From: Gwar Konczal of 1:154/750 To: All Subj: Nintendo's New 128mb Lazer Disc NINTENDO'S "EXODUS" LAZER DISC 128-BIT SYSTEM Nintendo of America announced Thursday in a major press release that they would be releasing the Nintendo "Exodus"; the home gaming machine to end all other consoles. When asked about this bold move in such a competetive market, a spokesman responded, "We at Nintendo of America were tired of competition from rival companies such as Sega and 3DO, who often release newer and more technologically advanced gaming platforms at home and in the arcades. We feel that it is not enough to simply release information on an upcoming Nintendo gaming project, and not develop these projects." Nintendo made this expected move after the announcement of the Atari Jaguar and the Panasonic 3DO, two of the most advanced machines in the Video Game industry. In order to keep it's 72% market share, Nintendo of America feels that it is necessary to build a machine that will directly compete with these companies' machines. This machine is the Exodus. Set to launch in January, 1994, this powerful gaming machine will be Nintendo's answer to 128-bit games. The Exodus will sport 10 128-bit processors, each to have a different function. Processor 1 will be the straightforward graphics processor, capable of handling a resolution of 1,048,576X 81,920, plus a maximum of 16 million on-screen colors from a pallete of 1,638,409,600 available. Processor 2 will be the sprite generator, capable of animating 4,096,128 sprites on screen, with no sign of slow- down or flicker. The sprites will not be limited in size, color, or resolution. Processor 3 and 4 will be the Sound and effects chips, which will handle 256Khz of oversampled digital sound. This is an unparalleled achievement in the sound industry, far surpassing the standards set by compact discs and DATs. Processor 5 will be the MODE 7,000,000 chip, which will handle most of the machine's special effects, such as redrawn scaling, rotation, morphing, and other visual effects. The 6th processor will handle most high memory functions, such as Full Motion Video and (as mentioned earlier), redrawn scaling. The 7th and 8th processors will be the upgrade processors, both with room for further improvement on the unit. Number 7 will have chip placements for math co-processors, such as the DSP and SFX chips. The eighth will be a Multiplayer support processor, capable of handling hundereds of simultaneous functions for hundreds of players at once. This will reduce the need for costly multiplayer adaptor upgrades in the future. The last 2 processors will be the backup processors, both multitasking in every area. These processors will take the place of any of the others in the event that they crash from the enormous amount of work running through them. Best of all, Nintendo of America has patented and copyrighted any and all gaming machines above 64 bit, so that there will never be a need to buy a rival companies' 128-bit machine. So far there are 700 third party companies signed on to make games for the Exodus. The unit will be packaged with the Super Mario Universe 3 Game Pak(tm), and 8 control pads. The Exodus will sell for "around $200", with a slimmed down "Control Set(tm)" available by fall and sporting a $149 price tag. The Exodus will be Laser Disc specific, and will be downwardly compatible with the SNES CD-ROM,which was made available in January '93. This is the first case in Nintendo's history that their machine would be at least partly downwardly compatible. It is not known at this time whether the Exodus would be compatible with the older SNES Game Paks(tm). When asked which games the company would be releasing for the first year, a spokesman said, "At Nintendo, we will mostly concentrate on third party support, as we have in the past. This does not mean that Nintendo of America will not be releasing games for the Exodus. In 1994, we intend to have Super Mariotris, Yoshitris, Toadtris, Luigitris, Tetris All-Stars, Super Starfox Kart, Super Donkey Kong Jr.tris, and Super Exodus NFL Playaction, among others. All of these games have been ported over from Japan, and we are very excited to have them on our system." The Spokesman had nothing to say on why Nintendo of America has never made a single game in its entire existence, or why there has not been a Nintendo arcade game since 1985. Asked about runaway software prices, he said "That is a primary concern at Nintendo of America. We cannot control what prices our developers set, but the prices on our games will only be about $59. It does not cost as much to make a game on laser disc as it does on cartridge or multiple CDs." Nintendo's official comment on game quality, "You will find the kind of wholesome, family-oriented games that you have come to expect from Nintendo. All of the games for our systems are prescreened to prevent any offensive or injust material from getting to the public." Nintendo added the Exodus to their growing family of gaming machines, including the NES, Gameboy, SNES, SNES CD, QUAD system, and NES 2 systems. Suprisingly, some of Nintendo's first third party groups are absent from the Exodus lineup. These include Acclaim, Konami, and Jaleco. Capcom, however, is on the Exodus with full force, with a future release of Super Street Fighter 2: Hyper 4 player simultaneous Edition. Capcom has also announced that a preview of Street Fighter 3 will definitely be shown sometime in 1995 on the exclusive Nintendo Channel. The Exodus already has a built in reciever, so you won't have to spend $100 like you may have for the SNES. Nintendo has once again proven themselves king of the home video game industry, miraculously escaping bankruptcy in 1993. It seems that the SNES total generated revenue was around $4.9 billion, but nearly $4.2 billion was lost to illegal software piracy, since backup units are legal to own and can be used for illegal coping. Now they have cornered the market on the last advanced system. BTW, sprinkle the whole thing with a generous amount of =`) =`) =`) =`) =`) =`) =`) =`) =`) =`) =`) =`) =`) =`) =`) and a dash of political humor. Am I the only one who is sick and tired of Nintendo vaporware? Long live Sega, Atari, and 3DO!!! P.S. Most of the statistics provided for this article were directly from Nintendo of America, at some point or another. Disregard the system stats, of course! =`) Ja mata... --- * Origin: *YOPS ]I[* 1.3Gb * RA/FD/FMail RADist * Milwaukee, WI (1:154/750) --------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Gwar's Message. Just goes to show you how silly vaporware can be, and how great it is that Atari has a solid system and Nintendo doesn't. I really liked the part in the message where he said Nintendo has patented all systems above 64-bit. Now that is funny. It actually sounds like something they would try to do, knowing their "fair" practices. One thing I am puzzled about is whether Gwar was making fun of the recent Nintendo/SGI 64-bit system announcement, or whether he was making fun of another press release about a 128-bit Nintendo system that I hadn't heard about. Does anyone know if Nintendo actually said anything about a 128-bit Lazerdisc System? -Eric ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 154 Mon Sep 06, 1993 K.DRAKE [Sir Fransis] at 23:42 EDT Eric, He may have been making a point about the fact that Nintendo claims their system will have a 128-bit bus. Still Sailing, Sir Fransis ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 155 Tue Sep 07, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 00:54 EDT Heheh, they could've been talking about a 128bit serial stream of data in a frame... kind of like ISDN... :) --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 156 Tue Sep 07, 1993 TOWNS [John] at 14:09 EDT So far.. the general impression I have gotten from people is that the Nintendo announcements are just an attempt to scare Atari, 3DO, and Sega along with any potential customers that are on the fence. They hope that by putting something out there to delay potential customers from Atari, 3DO, and Sega making them wait to see the fabled Nintendo machine. The bottom line: This Christmas is going to be a very interesting season. ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 157 Tue Sep 07, 1993 BOOJIBOY [BOOJIBOY] at 23:25 EDT Wow! I had a dream last night about the Jaguar and how it can be sold so cheap! I dreamt that Atari was putting the Jaguars in recycled ST boxes with poorly glued Jaguar label over the box and that you had to peel and stick the various labels onto the Jaguar yourself! I hope this isn't a true premonition. I want my Jaguar! ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 158 Wed Sep 08, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 01:51 EDT Yeah, I saw that SNES or whatever ad (in the stores) for the 3d megachipfromhelltoendall3dgamesystems. IMHO, it's really lame. My Falcon030/14 could do a much better job with its DSP56K. --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 159 Wed Sep 08, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 05:57 EDT I saw a Sega CD ad on TV today that said something like: "You STILL haven't got your Sega CD? What are you waiting for, _Nintendo_ to make one?!???!?! " That was pretty cool! The only thing that scares me about the Jaguar is that it's supposed to have all this nifty 3D hardware and stuff, but the only pictures shown so far are platform games which even the TurboGrafx 16 could easily do. I'm not picky, either... if the games are _top secret_, then just get a picture of one of the test program screens. I'm sure someone there has written a nice demo program to test the capabilities of the hardware, etc. Take a picture of _anything_ rendered in 3D. Sorry to go on like that, but I've been seeing all the neato 3D stuff 3DO is showing, and (frankly) the Jag screenshots look mediocre in comparison, since they are only platform games... ___________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 160 Wed Sep 08, 1993 J.BUDIL [Jonathan] at 08:29 EDT > I was thinking that a real good application for the Jaguar would be as a > front end to "Air Warrior" and "MP Battletech" here on GEnie. Capital idea, Sam! Two snaps up for you. > The only way to do it would be if Atari were to come up with a modem device > that they say can hook to the DSP port. Didn't you know? A DSP can be trained to _become_ a modem through software (probably a 9600 baud one at that). All Atari would need is an adapter for the DSP port to allow it to connect with a phone line. Apples' new AV (audio- visual) computers have DSPs in them, and they use those DSPs to act as digital phones and modems. --Jonathan in Normal ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 161 Wed Sep 08, 1993 K.DRAKE [Sir Fransis] at 11:04 EDT Tbird, I don't think the games are top secret. I think they've got to hold something back or else the mags won't have anything "exclusive" to print. Believe me, the system _can_ do 3D. (and very well I might add) I've seen the videotape. I just think Atari doesn't want to give anyone a reason to get peeved. IMHO, it's incredible that they've let us see what we have! I mean, what other company gives you screen shots and system pix online? Now the gamers in _Japan_ will have to wait a year or two for new tech. I LOVE IT! Still Sailing, Sir Fransis -because 3DO doesn't _have_ platform games. ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 162 Wed Sep 08, 1993 TOWNS [John] at 14:33 EDT I thought a DSP modem was under development by a 3rd party developer for the Falcon030. Perhaps someone should ask Bill Rehbock for an update? ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 163 Thu Sep 09, 1993 RHETT [Mr.Anderson] at 00:47 EDT Thunderbird, >>I saw a Sega CD ad on TV today...That was pretty cool! Awesome. Next time you see it, look for the logo that says "STELLAR FIRE." That's the game I'm working weekends to finish. There's about 6 shots of the game (some of them only a single frame--oh well) in the commercial. --Rhett ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 164 Thu Sep 09, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 03:57 EDT RHETT, Will you give GEnie users a discount when your finished.:-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 165 Thu Sep 09, 1993 STEVE-J [Steve @ NLS] at 07:43 EDT RHETT - That's what I hate about that commercial -- in trying to show you what the Sega CD is like, they show too much too fast and end up not really showing you anything. ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 166 Thu Sep 09, 1993 RHETT [Mr.Anderson] at 12:35 EDT Joey, >>Will you give GEnie users a discount when you're finished? :-) No. :-> Steve, Yeah, but I still think it's a good commercial. It might get some people into the store to look at a Sega CD. --Rhett ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 167 Fri Sep 10, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 06:16 EDT Rhett, Thanks a lot!:-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 168 Fri Sep 10, 1993 T.HEBEL [Spud Boy] at 21:37 EDT Totally OFF-Topic Alert. Booji Boy, I run a BBS called Booji Boy. Call 302-734-7986. Spud Boy. ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 169 Sat Sep 11, 1993 C.CASSADAY [Chris C.] at 20:08 EDT >Atari-ST RoundTable >Category 14, Topic 45 >Message 168 Fri Sep 10, 1993 >T.HEBEL [Spud Boy] at 21:37 EDT > >Totally OFF-Topic Alert. > > Booji Boy, I run a BBS called Booji Boy. Call 302-734-7986. > >Spud Boy. > >---------- > Yeah, It's a pretty cool BBS, too. uh, and they sometimes talk about the Jaguar there?! (ducking and running) /\____/\ | * * | The Original | /\ | Robot Parrot \ \/ / Head ---- ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 170 Thu Sep 16, 1993 K.DRAKE [Sir Fransis] at 00:35 EDT All, You've _got_ to pick up this month's Game Pro. It's got pix and articles about the Jag (and before EGM!) Though the Jag is not the cover story (it's Super Street Fighter II) it's good to read the first impressions of a game magazine. We've known the technical side of our friend Jag for a while and now everyone can get the word. Game Fan has a little blurb it it's "Other Stuff" section about the Jag and mentions a pixel-perfect Cisco Heat. Who does that game in the arcade? Still Sailing, Sir Fransis ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 171 Sat Sep 18, 1993 E.JOLLEY [Eric] at 00:26 EDT I just read Mr. Mariano's ever so unreliable rag and found one of his dribblings: - Sunnyvale, CA JAGUAR TO BE DELAYED 'TILL AFTER CHRISTMAS? ------------- Our ever vigilant observers have reported the Jaguar is now expected to ship shortly AFTER Christmas 1993. This is in direct contradiction to the plans announced detailing a drive to ship to New York City and Los Angeles in time for Christmas. While some observers where somewhat disturbed by this news others shrugged it off with the comments; "So what else is new with Atari? They're running true to form!" I do hope Atari is smarter than this. Delay is decay. Make me proud, Atari, for once. Get the Jag out on time, and stop the pessimism monster. -Eric ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 172 Sat Sep 18, 1993 L.MCCLURE at 01:02 EDT Notice it said "New York and Los Angeles". I would not put much credence in a report that does not even know that San Francisco is to be the west coast test city for the Jag. ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 173 Sat Sep 18, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 04:41 EDT Hmmm... who do you believe, Atari or Ralph? ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 174 Sat Sep 18, 1993 JWEAVERJR [John@RSCARDS] at 11:17 EDT Is there a third choice, please? ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 175 Sun Sep 19, 1993 R.NOAK at 10:36 EDT REALM, Hmmm... who has the better track record of getting release dates correct? Randy @ Southlake, Inc. ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 176 Sun Sep 19, 1993 K.DRAKE [Sir Fransis] at 11:57 EDT Anyone care to label the ports seen on the back of the Jag in GamePro? I say, "POWER", "32-BIT EXPANSION", "VIDEO OUT", and "COMLYNX". Also, is that red button the on-off switch? Finally for those who were wondering, those small white letters on the front of the unit (in the GIF) are, "64-BIT INTERACTIVE MULTIMEDIA SYSTEM." I believe the systems won't be available _in quantity_ until after Christmas but there are companies taking orders for the Jag to ship on Oct. 1st. From what I hear, the boxes are already done and IBM is just waiting for the word from Atari to ship. Since 3DO is shipping next month, I hope Atari does as well. Still Sailing, Sir Fransis ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 177 Sun Sep 19, 1993 E.JOLLEY [Eric] at 14:26 EDT I was glad to hear Mr. Brodie shot down the STR rumor. I have a feeling that Ralph's "Super Snoop" consists of an overactive imagination and a need to fill up his mag with rumors. (Because he obviously has very little facts anymore.) The rest of the Glendale transcript wasn't all that informative to me however, I just hope the few remaining Atari developers made enough money to convince them that it's worth it for a while longer. It sounds as if the 3DO is about to be released, but what is its price? And who is going to buy this thing? The second question depends on the answer to the first question. Electronic Boutique's latest catalogue has a little blurb on its cover about 3DO: "This will change the face of video gaming forever...3DO COMING SOON!" It seems the Jaguar's first challenge will be to overcome 3DO's unbeatable hype machine. The other enemy the Jag has to contend with is its own software. Some of the talk about it is good, but there is a lot of negative buzz about the 'look' of the first titles. I will admit that no one has actually played these games, but they do seem to lack complexity considering this is a 64-bit system. One other thing. At the RTC, Bob B. responsed to the comment "much touted 3rd party list" by rephrasing it as a question, "much touted???" This did not go over well with me. It almost suggested it wasn't much of a list at all, which may very well be true. But Atari needs a big list, and the reason is they cannot be trusted to bring out enough games on time by themselves. Just look at Lynx software for an example of this. The Lynx's failure was more than lack of advertising, it was a lack of software, and a lack of quality software. Well, enough of this analysis. Onward and upward...(I hope) -Eric ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 178 Sun Sep 19, 1993 J.NESS [Jim] at 19:51 EDT Joey - "who do you believe..." Ummmmmm. Uhhh.. Can I get back to you..? ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 179 Sun Sep 19, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 23:13 EDT Randy, Got me? Atari always hits the release dates they just never sell anything until two years later.:-) Eric, Bob wasn't saying it wasn't much of a developer list, he was saying it wasn't much touted. In other words he didn't like the phrase "much touted". Jim,:-) Tell me about it!:-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 180 Sun Sep 19, 1993 MIKE.KELLER [ST Aladdin] at 23:56 EDT || Hmmm... who has the better track record of getting release || ||dates correct? || I dunno, what has Ralph ever released? mike.k ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 181 Mon Sep 20, 1993 F.OLIVAS [F.Olivas] at 01:01 EDT I've been an loyal Atari fan since '85 so I'll have to say Ralph has a handle on the truth. (But I wouldn't mind being dissapointed just once). Fred O. ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 182 Mon Sep 20, 1993 R.NOAK at 01:14 EDT Maybe it's the way that I read it, but it didn't seem to me that the rumor was shot down at all. To me, a statement like, "Of course they'll be out before Christmas" would be shooting down the rumor, not what _was_ stated. As I read it, it was sort of ambiguous. Randy @ Southlake, Inc. ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 183 Mon Sep 20, 1993 STEVE-J [Steve @ NLS] at 05:42 EDT E.JOLLEY - Bob's "much touted???" comment bothered me too (as if to substantially and purposely lower expectations about the 3rd party Jaguar developer list). ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 184 Mon Sep 20, 1993 K.DRAKE [Sir Fransis] at 08:59 EDT Eric, 3DO is supposed to retail at $699. I think the Jag is going to pull a lot of their potential customers. --Wow! This 3DO thing is cool. But, whillikers! I don't have that much money to spend on a pastime. I'll wait until the price dro....WHOA! This Jag is just as good and is only $200? I'm there, dude!-- So in a way, the Jag can ride 3DO's hype and steal their thunder. To me, the first games are set up as a benchmark. Especially Raiden. You look at comparable games on other systems then you look at the Jag, no contest. When 3DO's multimedia games start to ship, the Jag will have comparable software. No need to rush because there's no competition. All Atari has to do is ship product in Oct. That would change a lot of people's mind about them. Still Sailing, Sir Fransis ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 185 Mon Sep 20, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 18:13 EDT Long Post Warning!!!! Here's the latest news hot off the net: --------------------------------------------------------------------------- In article ') to get it to fit in 80 columns, I hope you guys don't mind... ____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 186 Mon Sep 20, 1993 ST.LOU [Lou] at 19:20 EDT Actually, I think Bob might have been acknowledging that the list should not be 'touted' until more developers come on board. From the other comments made I believe that the arrival of the first production models will be a major catalyst to enlisting more developers. ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 187 Mon Sep 20, 1993 K.DRAKE [Sir Fransis] at 22:22 EDT Tbird, Oh no! The entire crop of first games isn't even finished yet? I hope those EPROMS were burned weeks ago and do not represent where the games are now. I was hoping one of my first purchases would be Checkered Flag II but if it's only 15% finished, then I guess it won't be. Could it be that Atari's not showing completed games until release day (whenever that is)? I'd rather have read that there are 4 games coming out upon release than to read that there are 10 and then only 4 come out. A replay of the SegaCD Christmas? I hope not. Still Sailing, Sir Fransis ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 188 Mon Sep 20, 1993 RHETT [Mr.Anderson] at 22:59 EDT Sir Fransis, Actually, Atari is doing well to have any games at all. It's tough to make a good game in less than a year. I'm not sure when Atari had working Jaguars, but it probably wasn't too long ago. Developers were probably working with 1/2 speed and/or crippled systems for a decent percentage of their development time. Atari probably kept the systems in-house for quite awhile (for legitimate reasons), so it'll probably be summer of 1994 before we see any decent games from 3rd parties. This _always_ happens. Nothing to be alarmed about. Even 3DO, with its massive developer base, will probably take a few months to pick up steam. It's still on track for October release, by the way. Keep your eyes on it--it's the Jag's most direct hardware competition (video-hardware-wise). --Rhett ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 189 Tue Sep 21, 1993 STEVE-J [Steve @ NLS] at 04:07 EDT Everyone really should see the October issue of GamePro! There're screenshots of CRESCENT GALAXY (though Trevor McFurr looks ridiculous and Cutter looks too much like the StarFox character!) and PREDATOR VS. ALIEN, among other games, plus several pics of the Jaguar, JaguarCD, and the PowerPad controller. It was also nice to see Atari Corp. back in the top 5 most active stocks again -- and going up! ------------ Category 14, Topic 45 Message 190 Tue Sep 21, 1993 K.DRAKE [Sir Fransis] at 08:24 EDT Rhett, I wouldn't mind there not being any games out if I hadn't already read about 10 of them. If those games don't make it, it'll be seen as a weakness on Atari's part even though Nintendo _and_ Sega have both introduced systems for Christmas and then not delivered on all the expected games. To me, it'd seem like the list of games I saw for release for the Lynx and the list of games that were supposed to come from third parties then seeing nothing. I think 4 different games (other than the pack in) would be the minimum for the impatient comsumer. Still Sailing, Sir Fransis ------------