========================================================================= (C) 1994 by Atari Corporation, GEnie, and the Atari Roundtables. May be reprinted only with this notice intact. The Atari Roundtables on GEnie are *official* information services of Atari Corporation. To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem) 800-638-8369. Upon connection type HHH (RETURN after that). Wait for the U#= prompt.Type XTX99437,GENIE and press [RETURN]. The system will prompt you for your information. ========================================================================== Category 26, Topic 2 Message 1 Sat Jun 05, 1993 STEVE-J [Steve @ NLS] (Forwarded) Since Atari has now officially announced the Jaguar, it now deserves its own topic in the official Atari Corp. category. To start things off on the 'official' Jaguar topic, here's the Jaguar press release: OTC 06/03 1552 ATARI LAUNCHES THE JAGUAR, A 64-BIT MULTI-MEDIA GAME SYSTEM SUNNYVALE, CA (JUNE 3) PR NEWSWIRE - Atari Corp. (AMEX: ATC), the founder of the video game industry and the creative force behind some of the world's best- known titles, has announced the launch of a revolutionary new multi- media entertainment system, the Atari Jaguar. The launch will be supported by aggressive advertising, promotion and marketing efforts to be centered in the New York market in the fall, with a national roll-out of the product within one year. The Atari Jaguar, housed in a futuristic casing, is an interactive multi- media system based on an Atari-designed proprietary 64-bit RISC processor. The 64-bit system is four times the technology currently seen in the market today. The Atari Jaguar features over 16 million colors in 24-bit true-color graphics and produces shaded 3-D polygons to be manipulated in a "real" world in real time. The Atari Jaguar also has real-time texture mapping and creates spectacular video effects. The sound system is based on Atari's proprietary, high-speed, Digital Signal Processor dedicated to audio. The audio is 16-bit stereo CD quality and processes simultaneous sources of audio data, allowing for very realistic sounds, as well as human voices, which are essential for future multi-media applications. The Atari Jaguar is truly expandable and will include a 32-bit expansion port which allows for future connection into cable and telephone networks, as well as a digital signal processing port for modem use and connection to digital audio peripherals such as DAT players. The unit will also have a compact disc peripheral, which will be double- speed and will play regular CD audio, CD + G (Karaoke) and Kodak's new Photo- CD(R). Currently, there are multiple software titles in development, which will be available on MegaCart(TM). Atari, known for such groundbreaking 3-D titles as "Battlezone 2000(R)" and "Tempest 2000(R)," will issue spectacular new versions for the Atari Jaguar. New 3-D game titles will include "Cybermorph(R)," "Alien vs. Predator(R)," "Jaguar Formula One Racing(TM)" and many more. Atari will license third-party publishers to join the Jaguar family. "The Atari Jaguar system will revolutionize the state of home entertainment as we see it today," said Sam Tramiel, president of Atari. "The idea of a 64- bit system is earth shattering and kids and adults will be amazed at both the imagery and manipulative capabilities. And we are proud that our entry into the multi-media entertainment category will be fully made in America." The Atari Jaguar will retail for approximately $200 and will be available nationwide next year. The Atari Jaguar packaged unit will include one software experience and a Power Pad(R) Controller with a ten-key pad and other special features. Atari Corp. manufactures and markets personal computers and video games for the home, office and educational marketplaces throughout the world. Atari headquarters are located at 1196 Borregas Ave., Sunnyvale, CA 94089. CONTACT: August J. Liguori of Atari Corp., 408-745-2069 ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 2 Mon Apr 11, 1994 SAM-RAPP [Sam_030] at 23:46 EDT Holy Flaming UPS Trucks, Batman! ================== ============================================================= "Dateline Atari" December 6, 1993..... <[Host] ST.LOU> Now for the contest. The Rules: Only paying members are eligible! No free accounts :-) Bob will post the question. Type your answer and don't hit RETURN until you see that the room is in TALK-MODE. The first four correct answers judged by Bob and Ron will win a FREE Jaguar T-Shirt! OK Bob.... the question please! In my opening remarks, I mentioned that Atari is now doing a special offer to people that purchase a Lynx between now and January 24, 1994. What is the FREE game that you get when you purchase the Lynx? The winning answer was NOT Flaming UPS Trucks in Jacksonville. The correct answer is NFL Football. The winners are: P-Direct, P.Hanze, Sam-Rapp, L.Hinsley <[Host] ST.LOU> Congratulations. Please send your mailing addresses to ST.LOU and I will forward everything to Bob. OK? Bob is NOT in Sunnyvale right now. Congratulations, gang! You're gonna love 'em. Very high quality Hanes T-Shirts. If you're an XXL, don't be shy about it. I've got 'em. ============================================================== ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 3 Mon Apr 11, 1994 SAM-RAPP [Sam_030] at 23:47 EDT >From: P.HANZE Philip Hanze >To: SAM-RAPP Sam W. Rapp >Sub: t-shirt > >as I said in the conference I haven't received my t-shirt. Think maybe we will ================================================================== >From: P-DIRECT Sean E. Dougherty, TWP >To: SAM-RAPP Sam W. Rapp >Sub: Jaguar T-Shirts > > nearly start to end and I still don't have that shirt! It's not really > a great surprise, though. We are far from the first group that has > been left in the cold with Atari door prizes. =================================================================== >From: L.HINSLEY Larry W. Hinsley >To: SAM-RAPP Sam W. Rapp >Sub: Jaguar T-Shirts > >Hi Sam!! I'm afraid that I haven't seem any sign of a Jaguar T-Shirt >showing up around here. I did contact Bob Brodie once about it and ================================================================== >From: SAM-RAPP Sam W. Rapp >To: SAM-RAPP Sam W. Rapp > >Nope... sorry self, You haven't gotten a Jaguar T-Shirt either. >Really? Aw, shucks! ================================================================= ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 4 Mon Apr 11, 1994 SAM-RAPP [Sam_030] at 23:47 EDT OK. I did my part. Lou did his part. But something is still missing... I have contacted Bob several times about this, with no response. Lou says he keeps reminding Bob too. Bob even told me that everyone else had gotten thier shirts and that mine must have been lost and he would send another. So I thought I would ask about this in public. Have those T-shirts been sent yet Bob? Thanks! =================>Sam_030 ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 5 Mon Apr 11, 1994 E.HALLIWELL at 23:50 EDT T-Bird: I stand corrected RE: bus widths. At least I was vaguely correct! RE: If the 2600 can do 60fps then the Jag can do 6,000,000fps Thundie, as near as I can tell, this response makes no sense at all. If you're as well-informed as you present yourself as, then you know bloody well that I wasn't comparing the processor speed of the VCS vs the JAG. My point was, that the Jag video hardware should be able to output frames just as fast a game system designed in the early 70s. Someone elswhere in this RT remarked that Raiden runs at 30fps. I find that unacceptable. I think you need a break from the Jag vs. three-dough topic... it's affecting your mind in strange and adverse ways. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 6 Tue Apr 12, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 00:22 EDT No prob. James, I didn't mean to imply you didn't trust Sheldon. I thought you didn't know about him at all, and I was sort of offering a testimonial! Hey, it's nice your wife is a good saver. I tend to be somewhat of a saver myself. Now, my _ex_ wife is a color of another horse! She was a spender. BIG conflict! Sounds like you know you've got a good thing there! Matt ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 7 Tue Apr 12, 1994 R.MARTIN22 [NETWORK 23] at 00:58 EDT JAMES: If your reference to "dot crawl" is the "video industry" definition of dot crawl, then my Jaguar problem is not the same thing. Dot crawl is artifacts that ride along vertical edges of objects and text (mostly in CG) and are most evident when the edge is high contrast. My problem is five, nearly distinct lines that exist on the screen at all times, along the entire height of the screen, like this: _____________________________ / | | | | | \ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | \_____________________________/ Now, they aren't nearly as thick and defined. The lines are dots and the individual dots flicker in and out, but as a whole, the lines are always there, except when a game is paused. Even in CyberMorph, when I'm stationary and NOTHING is moving on the screen, the lines persist, unless I'm in Pause mode. I agree with you on nearly everything else, tho'. 256 level colors should not exceed 220 when converting to NTSC. .......... In other news, another question. I've tried many times to duplicate the Jaguar "easter egg" that allows you to rotate the kittykube, but to no avail. I saw this mentioned in a "Jaguar secrets" textfile, but have never heard of anyone else trying this out or getting it to work. Does it really work? + ON-AIR [09:33 PM-11/Apr/94] + + LIVE AND DIRECT + ROD MARTIN, NETWORK 23 SOFTWARE ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 8 Tue Apr 12, 1994 MTN.MAN [barak] at 01:33 EDT rhett, what i should have clarified was that my freind assumed that the 3DO must have had a single speed drive because it was so slow... ~~barak james, i'd love to get a y-cable for my jag but my monitor does not have a y connection- only composite and a hook up for rgb (but trying to figure out how to make a cable for it seems too complicated). seems like i have to live with those vertical lines. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 9 Tue Apr 12, 1994 STEVE-J [EeEckyThump!] at 07:50 EDT R.MARTIN22 - Well, I know WOLFENSTEIN-3D was running at phenomenal speeds (I've heard reports of OVER 60fps) when they first ported it to the Jaguar (they've actually added a lot of detail to WOLFENSTEIN-3D for the Jaguar just because they had so much extra power left). A few months ago, messages FROM Id Software said that they were trying to decide whether to keep DOOM at 8-bit color or 16-bit color because, at the time, 16-bit color was running under 15fps. And yes, the Jaguar Cube easter egg DOES work. K.DRAKE - Unless JOUST shows up on a JagCD game!!! But you didn't hear that from ME! ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 10 Tue Apr 12, 1994 CYBERMAN at 08:27 EDT James: The reason that people are steering you away from the Jaguar is because: 1. They are making a commission off of the sale of 3DO's 2. The Retailers profit margin is higher on 3DO's In the case of EB/Waldensoftware, I think it's number 2. Some stores are rabidly pushing the 3DO. There are other reasons, but I think these two are the most prevalent. At any rate, don't get discouraged. Our Jag supply has been coming pretty steady now. As soon as we sell a Jaguar, we are sent another one. *Geoff!* ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 11 Tue Apr 12, 1994 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 18:25 EDT E.HALLIWELL: >RE: If the 2600 can do 60fps then the Jag can do 6,000,000fps > >Thundie, as near as I can tell, this response makes no sense at all. It makes sense from that standpoint that you seem to be implying that since the 2600 can do 60FPS, then any Jaguar title that does not do 60FPS is "unacceptable". >If you're as well-informed as you present yourself as, then you know bloody >well that I wasn't comparing the processor speed of the VCS vs the JAG. The processor speed of the machine is what determines the FPS of a game, so your message compared the two, whether you intended it that way or not. >My point was, that the Jag video hardware should be able to output frames >just as fast a game system designed in the early 70s. The Jag video hardware ALWAYS outputs 60FPS when connected to an NTSC TV or monitor.(We won't get into interlace and alternating 'fields' here for the sake of argument.) In Europe, Jaguars output at 50FPS. If the video hardware did not output at 60FPS (NTSC), the screen wouldn't be synchronized and it would flicker and jump and distort in all kinds of psychadelic ways. If you have a screen with a sprite on it that didn't move, it still has to be refreshed on your TV at 60FPS. If your processor can move that sprite around only 20 times in a second, then the speed of the movement is said to be 20FPS, because the object is capable of moving a maximum of 20 times in a second. In other words, the video hardware always refreshes the screen at 60FPS, the processor speed determines how quickly the screen objects move. The two are not related, and when comparing 'FPS' of games, it's the CPU power version that everyone is talking about because the video refresh is a constant 60FPS (NTSC). >Someone elswhere in this RT remarked that Raiden runs at 30fps. I find >that unacceptable. Don't theatrical movie releases run at 24FPS? Do you find those unacceptable as well? I think a lot of people have an artificial expectation of "FPS" you don't _need_ 60FPS... T2K doesn't do it and it ROCKS! I hope this clears everything up. ______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 12 Tue Apr 12, 1994 CYBERMAN at 21:17 EDT I've got a question...why is there a few lines at the top of the screen in Tempest 2000 that don't match up with the screen anywhere? Maybe it's just the machine...but I did notice it while playing the game. *Geoff!* ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 13 Tue Apr 12, 1994 R.RE [rob re] at 21:28 EDT does anybody know the number to call Atari to check on Tempest preorders? It looks like mine is one of the "lost orders" and I would love to get it unlost ASAP. Thanks, Rob ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 14 Tue Apr 12, 1994 J.KIMBALL [James] at 21:48 EDT Martin, I never heard of what your talking about, or experienced it ever before. Sounds more like a problem with the jag. if the lines are spread evenly like that sounds like the video circuitry is bad on either the tv or jag. Maybe just needs an adjustment. Beyond me, but then like a said before I'm not a video technician, so it doesn't take much to go beyond me either. I can't seem to get my kitty cube to do anything either. I thought it was just me. I tried every combination of buttons I could. I tried the hitting them when I saw the cube, I tried before I turned it on too. I'm new at experiencing life tho. I've just recently decided to stop doing so much 3D and start beathing fresh air, watch beavis and butthead, find out who Joey Butefuko, Madona changed her hair, the snow melted, it's '94, etc.... So maybe I'm just an idiot that can't read simple directions on how to change the kitty cube :) Drake, I heard you say that Joust was comming on a CD game! Since we know that one of the first games to come is BattleMorph.... Did you say that it was comming on the BattleMorph CD? :D CyberMan, Where do you work? Do you run a store, or work at one, and where? BTW I did joke about "I know you want me to get one, you make more on it!" They would look ashamed at that point and begin to slouch. James ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 15 Tue Apr 12, 1994 RHETT [Mr.Anderson] at 21:56 EDT Thunderbird, Yes, films run at 24fps, but 60 fps looks better. In general, the higher the frame rate the better (of course) until you go 60fps--the maximum for a machine designed to run on NTSC. A programmer wouldn't choose 30fps over 60fps unless he couldn't maintain the detail he wanted at 60fps with his processor. We're in agreement there. But I hope that programmers are trying for 60fps whenever they can. I think that 3D games can't make 60fps with today's hardware, but many 2D games (like Raiden) should be able to. --Rhett ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 16 Tue Apr 12, 1994 G.GEORGE3 [Fruitman] at 21:59 EDT Ok. Someone want to tell me why everyone (the game mags) seem to think the Jaguar runs at 13.3 MHz? (THat's the 68000!) What speed does Tom run at? I would think he could do 13.3 in his sleep! Fruitty p.o.ed at GEnie toningt! ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 17 Tue Apr 12, 1994 FIZSOFT at 22:04 EDT Rod, I've read holding down pause and option in a glossy magazine, and I've read I belive just holding down option on the hints, tips, tricks thing found online. However, those didn't work, holding down pause (without option) during bootup will work. You have to keep the pause button pressed while you rotate, shrink, and grow. BTW...this deals with the kittycube (I liked that :) in case you've forgotten what I'm replying to :) Bye PS please reply regarding if this works for you. Bye again ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 18 Tue Apr 12, 1994 E.MICHARD at 22:44 EDT R. Martin - To do the Jag title screen thing, HOLD DOWN pause when the cube is shown on screen. The D-Pad will rotate it faster & zoom in & out. It's pretty worthless, though. Barak - I've had the best results with a Commodore 1702 Monitor with Luma/Chroma hook- ups. I've got 2 of them I picked up for $50 each from people selling old C64 systems. Best $50 I ever spent. They're great for ANY game system. (composite or Chroma/Luma) I bought the RGB cable from Redmond Cable, and the lousy thing doesn't work with my SC1224 RGB Monitor (way too dark & vertical rolling) It would be a pain to keep switching between computer & Jaguar, anyway. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 19 Tue Apr 12, 1994 R.MARTIN22 [NETWORK 23] at 22:45 EDT STEVE: Can you tell me what the kittykube easter egg is again please? I'll try it again, but every time I do, the cube still warps into infinity like it always does. + ON-AIR [05:58 PM-12/Apr/94] + + LIVE AND DIRECT + ROD MARTIN, NETWORK 23 SOFTWARE ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 20 Tue Apr 12, 1994 E.HALLIWELL at 23:19 EDT Martin-- The Jaguar Title Screen Easter Egg --------------------------------- Any time before the title screen disappears, press and hold the PAUSE button. You can then do the following things: Pad Up/Down-- zoom in/out Pad Left/Right-- change rotation speed and direction 0 key-- reverse rotation ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 21 Tue Apr 12, 1994 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:32 EDT Rhett Since theatrical films run at 24FPS I feel that most people will prefer a "Theatrical Film" level of detail at "Theatrical Film" speed over a SNES level of detail at 60FPS. If I had a 24FPS game that looked exactly like the special effects in "Return of the Jedi", I certainly wouldn't object. 2D shooters on the Jaguar could easily do 60FPS. _______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 22 Tue Apr 12, 1994 E.HALLIWELL at 23:43 EDT T-Bird: If 2D shooters on the Jag could easily run at 60fps, then why doesn't Raiden? (assuming this is the case). And T2K runs at 30FPS??? Man, if the Jag can't handle solid-filled polys as simple as in Tempest at 60FPS, then there's something seriously wrong. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 23 Tue Apr 12, 1994 R.MARTIN22 [NETWORK 23] at 23:44 EDT Russafrussa Aladdin-lag! FIZSOFT: You hit the nail on the head with that one, my friend. Once I tried Pause instead of Option, I was able to coerce the kittykube to do things! Thanks for your help! E,MICHARD Yeah, I know it's worthless, but at least I can do it now! =-) + ON-AIR [09:28 PM-12/Apr/94] + + LIVE AND DIRECT + ROD MARTIN, NETWORK 23 SOFTWARE ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 24 Wed Apr 13, 1994 AEO.MAG [?] Travis [?] at 00:36 EDT Geoff, Better rest up while you can. In a couple of months, you may be working long hours. ;) //// Rob, Atari Customer Service is (408) 745-2098. --Travis ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 25 Wed Apr 13, 1994 J.TRAUTSCHOL [Missionware] at 00:53 EDT Rod... What you describe is not dot crawl. It sounds to me like you've got a video display memory addressing problem. John T. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 26 Wed Apr 13, 1994 REALM [Joey] at 01:19 EDT Matt, My Dad always says he'd rather die a million in debt then with a million in the bank.:-) I told him I'd rather he die with a million in the bank.:-) ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 27 Wed Apr 13, 1994 T.MAGEE1 [Todd] at 01:26 EDT Since people are talking about these lines, I thought I'd fire mine up (hadn't doen so in a while, waiting for other games) and see what happens. I have a composite cable to my VCR. Turn it on, three fuzzy lines all the way down the screen when you turn it on, but the lines go left about an inch the area where "JAGUAR" appears ont he screen. Have no idea why. Get to selection of planet, now there is like a fuzzy area at top of screen about 1.5" long that appears and disappears ALONG with the music! Not with the game sound, just whenever it is playing music. I thought that was pretty bazarre. Then playing the game you have rainbow fuzzy junk all over the screen expect about an inch on the left that is fine. If I put on pause that all disappears except for those dang three fuzzy lines that I mentiuoned when you first turn the machine on. Well, heck, I will play it some, see what finds out. I am now unhappy to say my Jaguar died about 10 seconds later... Todd ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 28 Wed Apr 13, 1994 STEVE-J [EeEckyThump!] at 04:52 EDT R.RE - Does your credit card bill show a charge for it from Atari? If not, then it MAY have been lost. G.GEORGE3 - The 68000 runs at 13.3 MHz and TOM & JERRY run at 26.6 MHz. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 29 Wed Apr 13, 1994 G.CHIU2 [Graham] at 06:01 EDT Sir Fransis way back in December you wrote to me ... > Yes, it can _very_ easily be modified for PAL use just by changing the > clock crystal. I did hear this awhile back, though, and I know the Jag > chip (GPU) can do it, it's just a matter of whether Atari implemented Do you have any further specifics on this - eg: where the crystal is, and to what I should change it too? I've just received my NTSC jaguar today, and playing Cybermorph in 16.7 million greyscales on my PAL monitor is not something I want to continue for too long :-) I suppose the alternative is to make up an RGB cable. Can someone remind me what they used to mate to the edge connector on the back of the Jaguar. Was it one of the old Atari game catridges or something?? Thanks. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 30 Wed Apr 13, 1994 C.SMITH89 [CLINT/A.P.E.] at 08:25 EDT I'd really like to know when this technical stuff(like FPS) became more important than little things like wether a game is fun or if it has good gameplay? I've never spent any amount of time wondering what Raiden's FPS is. I was too busy having fun with it. It moves more than fast enough for my tastes(it seems faster than the arcade version to me). Ditto for Tempest 2000. My suggestion...relax. Drop your oscilloscopes and pick up your joypads. Have fun. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 31 Wed Apr 13, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin!] at 09:22 EDT Clint, Yeah, I agree. Good FPS ratings are nice, but I still like some of my 2600 and 800XL games much better than a lot of the lame-o games out these days. BTW, I like T2K a LOT. :) I wish I had a larger TV and a paddle for it. :) --Kevin ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 32 Wed Apr 13, 1994 J.NESS [Jim] at 16:49 EDT Doom for the PC has two resolutions. Only thing is, I don't know what they are - they're labelled Low and High. Heh heh. Doom/PC also has a sizeable "window" which lets you speed up the frame rate on slower machines by decreasing the frame size. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 33 Wed Apr 13, 1994 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 20:31 EDT E.HALLIWELL: >T-Bird: If 2D shooters on the Jag could easily run at 60fps, then why >doesn't Raiden? (assuming this is the case). I do not own Raiden, so I cannot say how fast it runs... if it _doesn't_ run at 60FPS it could be due to the fact it was one of the first games done by programmers not yet accustomed to the Jaguar parallel architecture. >And T2K runs at 30FPS??? Man, if the Jag can't handle solid-filled polys >as simple as in Tempest at 60FPS, then there's something seriously wrong. I don't know how you can possibly criticize the Jag and Tempest 2000 for not being 60FPS. Do you own, or have you even seen Tempest 2000? Out of everyone who has given their opinion online here of the game, _nobody_ has complained about it's frame rate. There's a heck of a lot _more_ going on in T2K than 'simple' 'solid filled' polygons... there are dozens of gouraud shaded polygons, dozens of solid polygons, simultaneous 3D explosions, multiple layers of scaled text, multiple channel music generated in real-time, multiple sampled sound effects, 2D bitmap overlays, nonlinear 3D starfields, and the list goes on and on. I don't believe you are a programmer, so I'd like to know how you can make a such a bad judgement on a game like T2K. ______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 34 Wed Apr 13, 1994 D.DORBUCK [Zaphod] at 21:03 EDT Guys, Anyone on the East Coast recieve their copy of Tempest 2000 yet ?? I live in CT and as of today 4/13 no game :( Cheers Zaphod ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 35 Wed Apr 13, 1994 J.ZENTZ1 [wintermane] at 21:26 EDT Halliwell Raiden could be doing 60 fps. Most people still dont remember that it isnt 320/200 or even that res expanded to fill the screen. From what I read its 400+ by 348 or some such crazy res. All I really know is that unlike other games I cant see the individual pixels vs my tv sets pixels it uses the full res my tv supports. And I dont see any jitters that a slow speed(even 30 fps) 2d slider would entail. As for 3d games SHEESH people they still havent had time to really bang the metal on the jag OR 3do fps will go up on later games count on it. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 36 Wed Apr 13, 1994 T.MAGEE1 [Todd] at 22:06 EDT Atari has now put Jaguar commercials on MTV. Probably a really good move. Todd ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 37 Wed Apr 13, 1994 C.SMITH89 [CLINT/A.P.E.] at 22:23 EDT Todd, the MTV spots have been going for about 2 weeks now. And yes, it is a good move. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 38 Wed Apr 13, 1994 E.HALLIWELL at 23:35 EDT T-Bird: You don't believe I'm a programmer? Ah, if I didn't have my pride I'd bludgeon you with my MAC/65 cartridge! In RE my comments about T2K's frame rate, what we have here is more a case of overselling the Jag's hardware than anything else. (my copy of Tempest should be arriving in a couple of weeks...) Speaking of slowdown, has anyone tried toggling the music on Cybermorph's name- entry screen? The letters rotate at a veritable crawl with music on. Cybermorph must be running 90% on the 68K. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 39 Wed Apr 13, 1994 TQUINN [Terry~Sysop] at 23:36 EDT The first 220 messages (or so) in this topic have been archived and are available in Library 13 as file # 32605 (JAGUAR16.ARC). This archive contains all of the messages between March 27, 1994 and April 13, 1994. Terry Quinn ST RT Sysop and BBS Janitor ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 40 Wed Apr 13, 1994 BOOJIBOY [BOOJIBOY] at 23:46 EDT R.Martin22 This may or may not be a cause of your dotty lines, but you should consider checking your t.v. I started getting similar effects when my kids were playing Sonic The Hedgehog and I thought my Genesis was defective. Then I switched to my Jag and I could see something similar. It turned out that the screen was bending in at the top and bottome due to some kind of bad capacitor. Obviously, the worse the distortion, the worse the effect. That is, some of the information at the top of the screen, like scores, was actually ending up about a third of the way down into the game screen. It is really hard to explain, but depending on your overscanning on your tv you may have to have your set adjusted. It may not be your Jag at all. BoojiBoy P.S. to Mtn.Man, the same thing could be a result due to your set warming up, not the Jag. It may be a bad capacitor in your tv. Try another game system and see if you get similar effects. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 41 Thu Apr 14, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 00:07 EDT Joey (REALM) That's one of the best one liners I've heard in a long time! Laughed out loud I did, upon reading it! Ahhh, a laugh, just when I needed it.... thanks. Matt ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 42 Thu Apr 14, 1994 K.DRAKE [Sir Fransis] at 08:22 EDT Graham, If you're looking at the board from the front, it should be on your upper right I believe (any peekers know better?). _What_ to do, I don't know. How does one go about finding the correct clock crystal? I'm in Memphis, TN and I just got my T2K today. Between that and my new $99 TurboDuo, my gaming needs will be well met for this next month. My girlfriend even said _she_ likes it and she rarely likes anything with more action than Shanghai or Bomberman. Still Sailing, Sir Fransis ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 43 Thu Apr 14, 1994 A.PETRIE1 [Suzie/AL] at 19:03 EDT Zaphod: FWIW I recieved my copy of T2000 today in New England 4/14/94 Boy am I happy. AL P ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 44 Thu Apr 14, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 19:14 EDT E.HALIWELL, You noticed that slowdown too? I noticed a couple of spots in CM where things slowed down, and that was one of them. The others were during gameplay. After completing the game, I had noticed only two or three spots where it slowed down; there might have been more, but I was too busy to notice. ;-) Probably too much 68K and not enough RISC, but then, it IS one of the early games. Still very impressive. I've found a couple of spots in Crescent Galaxy where it slows down. It's probably the same thing. ~dmj P.S. I think I'll have some nice treats for my mailman tomorrow... IF he has my copy of T2K. ;-) ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 45 Thu Apr 14, 1994 D.VANTREASE [Shadow] at 19:22 EDT Zaphod, I live in Ohio and my pre-order Tempest arrived yesterday (4/13). Hang in there, bud - It's worth the wait !!! Hey all - For a good laugh, read the names on the T2K High Score screen! COW, YAK, BAA... they all have a 'LlamaSoft' theme! Shadow ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 46 Thu Apr 14, 1994 D.DORBUCK [Zaphod] at 21:49 EDT Shadow and All, Well the wait is over !! Got my copy of Tempest 2000 today !! All I can say is "Yessssss!!!" Awesome game !! Here's a little story to go along with it. I called my cousin over to check it out and he in the past has owned an Atari 800XL then an Atari ST computer. Needless to say he was "once" a big Atari fan, then when the ST starting getting "Nill" support over here, he dropped it and bought a Amiga. Well, a few months ago I showed him Cybermorph and he gave me the ol' Atari is not gonna make it and 3DO is better speech. It was just not enough 64 bits to take hime out of his "Dislike" Atari mode. Today during my Tempest 2000 sonic brain blast (had the ol' Sony surrond sound kickin!) I heard him mumble .. How much does the Jag go for ?? and when are DOOM and AvP coming out ?? I think we have re-kindled the fires of an old Atari fan. This to me was probably to best example of proof that the Jag was in it for the long haul and that Atari has done it right. Cheers. Zaphod. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 47 Thu Apr 14, 1994 G.GEORGE3 [Fruitman] at 22:08 EDT Say, does anyone know how or why Atari adopted the Fuji /|\ symbol so many years back? What does it have to do with Atari? Maybe Nolan thought it looked cool? Or was it because it was shaped like an "A"? /|\TARI? Anyone know? (No. NO prizes for this. I have no idea....) FRUITMAN! ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 48 Thu Apr 14, 1994 J.BATTEY1 [J. L. Battey] at 23:47 EDT D.MUNSIE, > $499.95 now for the 3DO? This puts it in direct competition for a > Jag/CD combo at around the same price. The MPEG-1 & MPEG-2 carts shown in NY last November take the 3DO right back otu of the competition. Matsushita (parent company of Panasonic) protested the National Association of Broadcasters adoption of MPEG-2 compression as the standard for "video on demand" & video CD systems, saying that it would require a completely new console design to replace their REAL 3DO. Jaguar is prepared for the future, 3DO is not. > The fact is give consumers a 64 bit Contra or Super Street > Fighter II on the Jag and you'll give all those 16 bit Genesie and > SNES owners a reason to buy the Jag. The future is replete with reasons to buy a Jag, & not all of them are games. Sir Fransis, > I also see 32-bit instructions on a RISC system as being overkill. I mean, _Reduced_ Instructions? Come on! I'm sure you know this, but RISC stands for Reduced Instruction SET Computer; FEWER instructions in the SET, not necessarily skinnier ones. The ideal of RISC is that no instruction should take more than one clock to execute. This is where it gets its speed. If you can execute a larger instruction in one clock by using a larger register, why not? IMNTHO, NOTHING is overkill!! Computer companies have been promising Ferraris & delivering hyped-up bicycles since the mid-70's & I'm sick of it!! Niel Harris was right when they quoted him in BYTE years ago (1987?), the ideal home computer was the Atari Tranputer Workstation. If, & only if, the programmers can deliver stuff that pushes the limits of the Jaguar's capabilities, I will buy the first video "game" console I will have ever owned. John L. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 49 Fri Apr 15, 1994 E.HALLIWELL at 00:31 EDT DMJ-- Actually, Cybermorph slows down a lot, to varying degrees, depending on how much stuff is on the screen. Flat terrain with no buildings or enemies, in cockpit mode, yields the highest frame rate. When there are a lot of the "high-rises" on the screen though, it gets pretty sluggish. All the more reason to blow them up! You can get a quick check of the current update speed by looking at the super- weapon window (when empty). The "static" pattern alternates with the frame rate. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 50 Fri Apr 15, 1994 E.HALLIWELL at 00:31 EDT Fruitman-- there exists two explanations for the Fuji symbol. One is that it's supposed to represent Mt. Fuji. The other is that it represents a Pong game. The center line is... well, the centerline. The two curves represent the players. I guess a third explanation is it's a stylized "A". Heck, maybe it's all three! ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 51 Fri Apr 15, 1994 REALM [Joey] at 00:57 EDT Matt, Glad I could help! My life is fairly amusing at times.:-) ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 52 Fri Apr 15, 1994 R.MARTIN22 [NETWORK 23] at 01:23 EDT BOOJIBOY: I've seen the effect of which you speak. I don't think that is the cause. I know this is not a sure-fire confirmation, but my set is also only four months old. Can ANYONE from Atari tell me what I should do about this ALLEGEDLY defective Jag? + ON-AIR [11:15 PM-14/Apr/94] + + LIVE AND DIRECT + ROD MARTIN, NETWORK 23 SOFTWARE ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 53 Fri Apr 15, 1994 STEVE-J [EeEckyThump!] at 07:50 EDT G.GEORGE3 - My understanding was that it was originally just a logo design (I'd like to know by whom!) and that the name "Fuji" (as in "Mt. Fujiyama") came later (Atari DOES call it the "Fuji symbol"). I've also heard that whoever designed the logo had an 'A' in mind while doing so. It's a cool (and very prominent) logo, though! J.BATTEY1 - I wish Neil would come back and hang around here some! After all, he DOES have a free account! On Internet, Jeff Minter just got back from a Jaguar developers conference and said that the JagCD's full motion video (using Cinepak only!) is VERY impressive. He's talked-down CD-FMV before, but his response to the Jaguar's CD-FMV was "WOW!" and "Bloody hell!" ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 54 Fri Apr 15, 1994 KEBAUM [bobo] at 08:57 EDT gOT MY t2K IN pHILLY ON tHURSDAY. In a word, INTENSE! All game programmers should study this to learn what gameplay is all about. It's been a while since I worked up a sweat playing a game. I think Atari should assign YAK to updating all the classics. Ken ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 55 Fri Apr 15, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 19:04 EDT [Semi-long post warning] I just got off the phone today talking with id Software, and I thought I'd tell you some of the interesting things I heard. The following are not really quotes (I should've recorded the conversation!) but rather paraphrased notes of what was said. I had called id Tech Support for help in getting Doom installed on my PC. (I want to see some glimpses of what's coming.) Anyway, the way the guy talked, he sounded like he really knew his stuff--maybe he was even one of the programmers. (Yeah, fat chance I know, but he _sounded_ good. ;-) So I said to him, "Hey, I hear you're doing Doom for the Jaguar." This was really a test question, to see if the guy really knew what he was talking about. After all, we all _know_ Doom is being developed for the Jag. "Yes, we sure are," the guy said. Score one. "How do you like the Jag?" I asked. "It's a nice machine. Probably the only console that can handle it [Doom]." Score two. "Are you going to increase the size of the textures for the Jaguar version?" "Oh yes, the Jaguar version will have better graphics than the PC version. Better graphics, better sound, better everything. It will be absolutely awesome." Score three. I'm beginning to like this guy! "When do you expect the Jaguar version to be out?" "Oh, sometime this summer." "That's not very specific!" "Nothing we do here is very specific." "What was Doom written in?" "Most of Doom was written in ANSI C, with about two routines written in assembly." "Oh? Which routines, the low-level graphics stuff?" "Actually, the routine that stretches bitmaps." "What about the texture-mapping routine?" "No, that one's in C." "Wouldn't it speed up the game if you rewrote it in assembly?" At this point, he gave me the "portability" speech. You know, the bit about how they write in C so they can switch platforms for the game easily. He also told me that compilers are good enough these days that a hand-coded assembly routine doesn't show much significant improvement over a C routine, so it wasn't worth their time to write in pure assembly unless it was critical. I don't necessarily agree with this, but he's supposed to know what he's talking about. I was somewhat surprised about Doom being written with so little assembly. I also remember hearing that there wasn't a C compiler for the Jaguar--but when I asked whether they had one, the guy avoided the question. And that was basically the whole conversation. He wasn't able to help me get Doom running on the PC; but I guess that's all right. Installing Doom on a Jaguar will be much simpler. ~dmj P.S. I did finally get Doom running (turns out my copy was bad) and all I can say is, this game is AWESOME. When it shows up on the Jag, with the enhancements id is making, this game will be INCREDIBLY AWESOME. ~dmj ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 56 Fri Apr 15, 1994 J.NESS [Jim] at 19:58 EDT DMJ - The Jaguar uses versions of GNU C as its "main" compiler. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 57 Fri Apr 15, 1994 J.KIMBALL [James] at 20:02 EDT Got a question for you guys... I just got my S-video cable in and it is awesome! Now, I also got a little brochure on the jag with it. On the cover is a picture to a game that I have not seen before. Has anyone else got this brochure? In the picture is a city skyline, and in the forground is a couple ships that look like duck necks and heads. It looks kinda like a side scrolling shooter, like cresent galexy, but I'm sure its not that one. James ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 58 Fri Apr 15, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 20:07 EDT E-Thump - If Jeff Minter is saying "Bloody hell!" about the CD-FMV on the Jag... That's good enough for me! Matt ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 59 Fri Apr 15, 1994 AEO.MAG [?] Travis [?] at 20:55 EDT //// DMJ, I'll digest that conversation you had later. From the fly-by, it looked interesting! (So do you think you'll be bitten by the Jaguar programming bug? From what I hear, it's heaven for assembler dudes.) //// All, The Jaguar won another award at the ECTS in London this week: "Best Hardware 1994". Basically, a panel of ~70 computer & video game magazines gave the Jag the award over other contenders like 3DO, CD32 and Reel Magic. --Travis ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 60 Fri Apr 15, 1994 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:37 EDT J.NESS [Jim]: >DMJ - > >The Jaguar uses versions of GNU C as its "main" compiler. GNU C absolutely _sucks_ as a Jaguar Compiler... RISC Assembly and 68000 are the only way to go. ________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 61 Sat Apr 16, 1994 B.REEVES2 [Alter Ego] at 00:17 EDT Rod Martin, Your Jaguar sounds defective to me. You should get it serviced. --Alter Ego ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 62 Sat Apr 16, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 00:25 EDT dmj - "Score three. I'm beginning to like this guy!" Hey! I like the way you think! (Nice post... thanks!) Matt ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 63 Sat Apr 16, 1994 STEVE-J [EeEckyThump!] at 04:12 EDT J.KIMBALL - That _is_ CRESCENT GALAXY. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 64 Sat Apr 16, 1994 J.KIMBALL [James] at 10:28 EDT Steve- No way! That screen shot looks great! From what I've heard the game basically sucks. (Graphically, and gameplay) Well it was a good shot for the brochure. I won't buy it, cuz I'm not a fan of shooters. I can't wait until they make role playing and flight sim games. I also can't wait for CF2 and AvP. My wife wants KN. Cool than she rip apart virtual people instead of me :) In talking with Atari I was told that Tiny Toons is being rebuilt from ground up, not to be finished for a long time. Kasumi Ninja is next, and club drive. They are to be released next month. CF2 and AvP are June/July as we all knew. I wonder how DOOM can be "Better at everything" if it runs at 20fps? The guys at my work finished it in about 2 weeks. (I guess the diffaculty level was hard) I've refrained from even looking at it so I enjoy the jag version. When will this game be out? James ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 65 Sat Apr 16, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 13:07 EDT Travis, Whether I get bitten by the "Jaguar programming bug" depends on whether the company I work for can make more money with things I write for the Jaguar than they can with things I write for the PC. At the moment that doesn't seem likely, but around here, things change from day to day. ;-) If it were up to me, I'd be coding Jaguar stuff right now... but it isn't. :( T-Bird: - GNU C absolutely _sucks_ as a Jaguar Compiler... And if programmers are writing C code for Jaguar games, it's _no_wonder_ they can only get 20fps out of it. Sheesh. Aside from my general (and well- documented ;-) dislike of the C programming language, it has been consistently shown that a clever programmer can outdo a clever compiler by a factor of AT LEAST 3 to 1. Usually much, much more. And I think portability is a myth. James, Crescent Galaxy is a pretty game. It's perfect for still shots, because then you can't see how unsmooth the rotation of some of the objects is, or the fact that there's only two levels of parallax scrolling. You also don't see, in a still shot, how boring the gameplay is. If you like shooters, CG is okay. If you don't, it's just nice to look at. - I wonder how DOOM can be "Better at everything" if it runs at - 20fps? Yeah, I wonder too. Kick it up to 30 by getting rid of some of that C and it should be okay. It runs pretty snappy on my 486/50, but then, it had BETTER RUN SNAPPY on a machine like that. Where it really gets annoying is the 256 colors it uses; as you approach a wall, they're supposed to get brighter (a little), but there aren't enough colors in the palette to represent all the dim colors, so they keep changing colors as you approach them. Very annoying when you're looking for secret doors! With 16-bit color this problem will go away, and I'd happily trade that a slightly slower frame rate. Also don't forget that Doom on the PC is running on a screen somewhere around 300x200 (a little less); the Jag's screen, with its full overscan, is 50% larger. And the Jaguar version is using 16-bit pixels, not 8-bit pixels. - The guys at my work finished it in about 2 weeks. Are they slow or what? I got it installed yesterday, and finished the first episode last night. On the second-hardest level. (On the hardest level the baddies appear out of nowhere!) - When will this game be out? The guy I talked to said "summertime". If they already have a running version, then it's a matter of improving the graphics, sound, and frame rate, and that's it. It's not like they have to _design_ and _playtest_ a whole new game; that's already been done. They just have to port it and improve it. ~dmj ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 66 Sat Apr 16, 1994 J.ROGOZINSK2 [Rogo] at 14:33 EDT Zaphod, To relate a similar story to yours, I had a friend and his two sons over last night to show off the Jag and its power. His one son had been bugging him for the 3DO he had seen or his friend had. Well anyway after only a few minutes of seeing the Jag the boy turned to his father and said words to the effect this kills the 3DO. ;) === Joe Rogo === Saturday, April 16, 1994 12:43 pm ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 67 Sat Apr 16, 1994 C.SMITH89 [CLINT/A.P.E.] at 15:19 EDT I picked up the latest issue of Electronic Games today. Not much of Jaguar interest. They review Tempest 2000 and give it a B rating. You may have seen VictorMaxx's Virtual Reality helmet for Super Nes and Genesis. They're currently working on an improved lighter model called CyberMaxx. It's going to cost $449 and is compatible with IBM-PC, Mac, SNES, Genesis, and...(as if I even had to tell you this)the JAGUAR. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 68 Sat Apr 16, 1994 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 18:49 EDT DMJ: I don't disagree with you that games written in C will be slower than those written in assembler. Assembly language is the way to go. I do disagree that you attribute "C" programming to "only" getting 20FPS in the current games. There's a _lot_ of hardware to learn, and making use of the parallel architecture in the Jaguar makes for a steep learning curve. Assembly language cannot make up for poor programming practices or poor optimization, or bad algorithms. The good news is that as time passes, the games will become progressively more and more improved over the past. _________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 69 Sat Apr 16, 1994 AEO.MAG [?] Travis [?] at 19:36 EDT //// James, I wouldn't expect to see KN before the end of July. Club Drive, also. Remember, I'm very conservative with dates. (Software release dates, that is.) //// Damien, Understood, sir! (Heh, maybe GFA is porting GFA BASIC to be used as a Jag development language. :) //// Clint, (CyberMaxx < $500) + Jaguar = Cool. ;) --Travis ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 70 Sat Apr 16, 1994 E.HALLIWELL at 21:07 EDT Well, I've been watching MTV lately just to catch some Jag commercials... no luck yet. Can anyone say when they usually come on? ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 71 Sat Apr 16, 1994 E.BAIZ at 23:27 EDT I caught the end of a jag commercial on MTV about 10:30 PM. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 72 Sun Apr 17, 1994 M.HILL13 [Mike] at 00:05 EDT James, Doom on the PC is pretty easy even at the Ultra Violence level. Put it on Nightmare mode and you will probably never complete it. (Im talking from a multi-player standpoint. Nightmare mode would be impossible for a single player). What we did at work was set the level to Ultra Violence but turn on the monster regen option. It makes it quite tough to complete the levels even with four people, but it gives you a chance! It has renewed our playing. Mike ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 73 Sun Apr 17, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 00:13 EDT Thunderbird, - I do disagree that you attribute "C" programming to "only" getting - 20FPS in the current games. - - There's a _lot_ of hardware to learn, and making use of the - parallel architecture in the Jaguar makes for a steep learning - curve. Forgive me for being blunt , but if you write your program in C to be portable, you are _deliberately_ ignoring the special features of the machine you compile for. You have to, if you want to be portable. So if you are writing in C, you're not really utilizing the parallel aspects of the Jaguar-- hence only 20fps. Assembly doesn't cure all ills. A bad algorithm doesn't get magically better when you code it in assembly. But when you write at the assembly level, you have to know how the machine operates. C _intentionally_ hides this low-level working from you, leaving you at the mercy of the compiler for your efficiency. ~dmj ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 74 Sun Apr 17, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 01:33 EDT I haven't cought a Jag commercial on MTV, but I did see one one USA cable network today! It was for Tempest 2K. Had full color footage mixed with B&W clips that had a 50's look to them. It was quite entertaining. It didn't 'knock my sox off' but it's better than NO adverts, and not as bad as many. Perhaps after I've seen it a time or two more, I'll be better able to critique it. I was just happy to see another NEW commercial for ATARI on the tube! Matt ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 75 Sun Apr 17, 1994 AEO.1 [Albert Dayes] at 02:53 EDT DMJ, I'm glad I'm not the only giving you the "C portability" speech. Try DOOM on nightmare ... and see if you can complete the first epsiode. If you want the speed of nightmare without the "spawning" try starting a new game on NIGHTMARE level. Then load an Ultra-Violence game and its much more fun. Of course nothing beats multiplayer death match mode. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 76 Sun Apr 17, 1994 KEBAUM [bobo] at 13:05 EDT Did I hear that the next Jag games aren't expected until July? Does that include 3rd parties? I think the Jag is due for a sports game, like football. When is the 1st sports game due? Over in Amigaland I read to interesting items. The 3D0 is now selling for $449 att EB's and CD32 is as low as $339 in Canada. The Jag CD is going to be $200 + $250(jag)=$450. The price wars are starting. Ken ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 77 Sun Apr 17, 1994 S.LEGRAND [Oppressor] at 13:51 EDT DMJ Bah humbug, I just write all the housekeeping routines in portable C and rewrite the graphics engine for each platform I'm on. It works beautifully... Only a lunatic would rewrite entire applications in assembly for each machine... Much of DOOM is just fine in C or C++, they need only rewrite the machine dependent primitives and it will rock... I challenge anyone to write a game that elaborate across 3 platforms in 3 disparate assemblers alone... 90% of your time is in 10% of the code, rewrite that 10% and the remaining 5% speedup just isn't worth the effort... Scott ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 78 Sun Apr 17, 1994 M.HILL13 [Mike] at 15:01 EDT Albert, At work we were able to get to the 5 level on episode one in Nightmare mode with four players. Thats as far as we can go. If you want to make the game tougher but can't handle the Nightmare mode, you don't have to play tricks like you mentioned. Set the game to ultraviolence mode, but turn on the regen option. That way the monsters come back, but the enemy isn't as deadly as Nightmare mode. Its all done by command line options. Off the top of my head you can do something like this. doom -devparm -warp 1 5 -regen -skill 4 The -devparm is needed for the warp command to work. The above command will let you warp to Episode one, level 5. -devparm puts you into developers mode, you get an indicator at the bottom that shows you the Frames per second rate. You can also take PCX screen shots by hitting F1 I believe. -regen turns on the monster regeneration (so they come back 8 seconds or so after they die). -skill sets the skill level. 4 equals ultraviolence. You can do alot of fun things with the command line parameters. You can save a movie of your game and play it back later. You can also set up three computers side by side and have the monitor in the middle be your front view and the monitors on the right and left be those respective views. All this info is available in the Doom FAQ (I can send it to anybody interested, drop me an email). There are also numerous level editors and menu programs to ease all those command line parameters. I hope the Jag version is as configurable as the PC version. It would also be really cool, if you could use your computer to generate levels and "Download" them to doom over the serial ports (use a Cat Box?). Maybe we should hound ID about that feature? Mike ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 79 Sun Apr 17, 1994 C.UNDERWOOD1 [Carson] at 15:06 EDT >Over in Amigaland I read to interesting items... CD32 is as low as $339 >in Canada. bobo, FWIW, hasn't Commodore declared bankruptcy? I wonder if they will be able to rise above it & market the CD32 in an effective manner. I wonder how much competition they will be for the Jaguar. Do they have a lot of developers? Carson ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 80 Sun Apr 17, 1994 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 15:34 EDT DMJ [dmj]: >Forgive me for being blunt , but if you write your program in C to be >portable, you are _deliberately_ ignoring the special features of the >machine you compile for. I'm sorry if you misunderstoof me, but I get the feeling that you think I am advocating the use of "C" in Jaguar games. Quite the contrary... Assember is an _absolute necessity_ for Jaguar programs. There ain't no "C" for DSP and GPU code. Without them you've got a souped-up ST to work with. >You have to, if you want to be portable. So if you are writing in C, >you're not really utilizing the parallel aspects of the Jaguar-- >hence only 20fps. The Jaguar is too "unique" to write "portable" games for. If you try to write "portable" code, you've locked yourself into a mindset that limits most of what the Jaguar is good for. >But when you write at the assembly level, you have to know how the >machine operates. C _intentionally_ hides this low-level >working from you, leaving you at the mercy of the compiler for your >efficiency. You _have_ to know how the Jaguar operates to write _anything_ on it, no matter when you write in. Much of the hardware features in the Jaguar are directly accessable in "C"... the problem is that the hardware will just be accessed more slowly than it would in assembly, or RISC assembly. _____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 81 Sun Apr 17, 1994 C.SMITH89 [CLINT/A.P.E.] at 15:35 EDT The bulk of CD32's developers are from Europe and most have also signed on to do Jag games. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 82 Sun Apr 17, 1994 P.LOUIE1 at 16:12 EDT Fruitman, If my memory is correct, the Fuji symbol is the result of combining the 'A' and 'I' letters of "Atari". The two outer legs are the 'A' and the middle leg is the 'I'. All, I saw the Jagaur kiosk for the first time today, and I like it. It's housed in a black arcade game cabinet with the Jaguar logo on the sides and above the monitor on the front. You can see the Jaguar unit below the monitor in its own enclosed space, and a joypad is attached to the front. Two speakers, a comparison chart, and a features list are on both sides of the monitor and unit. It was sitting next to the 3DO kiosk, and the Jag was showing Tempest 2000. I saw this at the Good Guys in the Stonestown Galleria in San Francisco. Check it out... Also, to my surprise, Tower Records (upstairs from the Good Guys) was also selling Jaguars and games. They were also having a sale. Jags cost $239.95 and games were $44.95. They even had composite cables(!) which many of the other major stores (like the Good Guys) don't have. Why? I don't know... ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 83 Sun Apr 17, 1994 D.VANTREASE [Shadow] at 17:32 EDT Well, I was ABOUT to ask if anyone has heard any news on AvP (last I heard, it was still due in April). But I just saw a post that mentioned June/July ??? I must have missed something!!! When/why did AvP get delayed AGAIN?? -Shadow- ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 84 Sun Apr 17, 1994 AEO.1 [Albert Dayes] at 17:52 EDT Mike, Thanks for the update on the command line parameters for Doom. Downloading levels from your computer sounds like a great idea too. -- Albert ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 85 Sun Apr 17, 1994 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 18:52 EDT Matt, what program were you watching on USA and at what time did the commercial air? ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 86 Sun Apr 17, 1994 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 19:26 EDT At a recent monthly Computer Faire in Ventura, CA, Demand Sytems of Camarillo was selling Jags for $199. I don't know if that is their everyday price though. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 87 Sun Apr 17, 1994 AEO.MAG [?] Travis [?] at 19:30 EDT Ken, FAIRWEATHER said that he's seen Jags selling in the Ventura/Santa Barbara area for $199. I've heard that there's a soccer game that's due out in June/July. I am trying to get confirmation on that. Atari's being kinda "hush hush" about a lot of things, including the sports titles. I'm not worrying about CD32 too much. I can't get a handle on 3DO sales (the 3DOpes claim too much), and I've been pondering whether the Sega 32-bit adaptor for the Genesis will help them or hurt them in the medium- to-long run. What really scares me is the Super GameBoy "Play GameBoy games on your SNES" cart. That could blow the whole video game market apart. Not. --Travis ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 88 Sun Apr 17, 1994 STEVE-J [EeEckyThump!] at 20:37 EDT E.HALLIWELL - During BEAVIS & BUTTHEAD and LIQUID TELEVISION. C.UNDERWOOD1 - No, Commodore hasn't declared bankruptcy...yet! They HAD a lot of CD32 developers (after all, they just had Amiga developers plop their Amiga games onto CD -- with a few improvements), but due to Commodore's MASSIVE financial woes, some of them have reportedly either pulled out or suspended development. The only news on Commodore is that Hewlett-Packard may buy them, but it's unlikely they'd continue the Amiga themselves (though they could sell that off to SOMEONE else). ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 89 Sun Apr 17, 1994 J.WILES1 [Jeff] at 22:45 EDT Say, has anyone gotten an Atari 1224 monitor, with the side controls, to work with the Jag yet? I remember reading that people were having problems with this monitor scrolling. I just purchased a used 1224 monitor and was wondering what my chances were to use it with the Jag. Jeff ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 90 Sun Apr 17, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 23:04 EDT Scott, My point was, id used 99% C and 1% assembly. To me, that seems like a bad mix for an arcade game, especially one that should be "pushing the limits". - Only a lunatic would rewrite entire applications in assembly - for each machine... And only a lunatic would try to write purely portable code. I advocate neither extreme. Moderation in all things. Basically, I'm not arguing with you. Thunderbird, - I'm sorry if you misunderstoof me, but I get the feeling that you - think I am advocating the use of "C" in Jaguar games. After all the comments you've made in here? No, that didn't occur to me for even an instant. I can't even remember what it was I was objecting to, now. But I think it was your comment that the 20fps reported rate of Doom had nothing to do with id's use of C, which I believe it does. Not really important. - The Jaguar is too "unique" to write "portable" games for. If you - try to write "portable" code, you've locked yourself into a - mindset that limits most of what the Jaguar is good for. Exactly! Yes! That was what I was trying to say. - You _have_ to know how the Jaguar operates to write _anything_ - on it, no matter when you write in. That's not what I meant. I mean that a C compiler hides the assembly from you. I've hand-optimized many routines, and I can consistently out-code even the most "intelligent" compilers. If speed is critical (and for most of the graphics/sound engine of a game, it is) then code it in assembly! High-level stuff can be done in a high-level language; in the Jaguar the 68K is there for that purpose. But to me, leaving 99% of the code in C is too much. 90% may be okay. Learning how to write efficient assembly code is essential. Sure, you only use it in 10% of the code--but that 10% is where it _really_ _counts_. In my work on the PC, I keep bumping into too many "programmers" who think C is the best language for _everything_; they just don't understand that no language is good for all things. ~dmj ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 91 Mon Apr 18, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 00:35 EDT David - I was watching a very silly movie... "Revenge of the Nerds" I think. :^) It must have been about 8:30 p.m. New York time. Matt ------- Travis - > What really scares me is the Super GameBoy "Play GameBoy games on your >SNES" cart. That could blow the whole video game market apart. Not. Hahahahaha! You _kill_ me! :^) Matt ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 92 Mon Apr 18, 1994 WETMORE [Tony] at 00:49 EDT Please, someone suggest that "Use your PC to create levels for DOOM on the Jaguar" idea to id Software! Quickly, before it's too late! [:-) Seriously, that would be an incredible feature. Anyone have a "direct line" to the-powers-that-be at id Software? Travis? Anyone? It "sounds" like it wouldn't be that difficult to implement, if designed in from the start, but to try to put it in now... who knows? Maybe they're already doing that, or something similar... -Tony ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 93 Mon Apr 18, 1994 MTN.MAN [barak] at 01:15 EDT boojiboy, regarding your reply that my verticle lines might be my monitor as opposed to the jag. anything is possible, but i do also hane a genesis hooked up to it and it never has those lines appear. ~~barak ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 94 Mon Apr 18, 1994 EXPLORER.5 [ Tal ] at 02:04 EDT I noticed a lot of people mentioning stuff about portable code this and C/assembler that...I thought I would throw in my $.02 worth... I've spoken to Shawn Green of Id about the coding of DOOM on the Jag, and he said a couple of interesting things...first, he said one of the first things they did was do a direct port of DOOM to the Jag...he mentioned something like they used a Gnu C cross compiler to 68k assembler... Then I was thinking...assume a company could feed source code into a machine that would spit out a program on whatever format you wanted... You wouldn't have to learn anything...just the language you originally used...So...doesn't it make sense for Id to first port it to the 68k just to get it working, and then optimize it from there? That way, they could see what needed to be optimized, and optimize only that, rather than taking a lot of extra time to learn unnecessary information... Again, this would probably leave a lot of undue work for the 68k which is not what it is for...but then again, Id is used to coding in C... I think they mentioned somewhere that only 2 routines in DOOM were done in assembler, so the assembly for the Jag would be fairly new to them... Oh well, I just wanted to throw in some thoughts I had on my mind...hope you don't feel I'm just rambling... See you in the next AEO with more from the Minter-Man! Tal AEO Jaguar Junkie ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 95 Mon Apr 18, 1994 K.BENDER1 at 02:29 EDT Yes, Tempest 2000 is better than sex. But the controller bites. Sure, you can learn to use it, I got 100K points so far, but you can learn to play the guitar with your toes-- you just won't be as good at it. I got an old driving controller for the 2600, but it works by having a phase difference beween clockwise and counter-- I would have to build some kind of sequential circuit to hook it up to my jag controller. Allow me to flame a bit about game controllers: I am right handed, most people are. Since my dexterity is in my right hand, I would prefer to use the joypad with my right thumb. But every &%$#ing game controller has the pad on the left. Ever try to write your name with your left hand if you are right handed? That's why I love my lynx so much-- I can flip it. I know someone who is left handed, and he DOESN'T flip his lynx for the same reason. So please please Atari, make a "left" handed jag controller. I bought a 2nd controller, opened it up, and switched the wires but Ihave to hold the rest of the controller upside down. My scores increase, but so does my hand fatigue. I hope there will be 3rd party controllers. Or maybe I could put electrodes on my hand muscle neurons, amplify them... Anyway, am I the only right handed guy who wants the pad on the right??? ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 96 Mon Apr 18, 1994 STEVE-J [EeEckyThump!] at 03:44 EDT Ya know, it seems kinda odd that Atari WOULDN'T want people to know games that are coming out for the Jaguar??? ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 97 Mon Apr 18, 1994 G.CHIU2 [Graham] at 04:24 EDT I'm currently in the process of making my own RGB cable, and doing it on the cheap. I'm going to connect it to a CBM 1084 stereo monitor, and the 9 pin d monitor connector I required came off a Hercules monitor. The Jaguar edge connector is the same pitch as on MFM hard drive cables but not the same size. No matter, a hack saw to reduce the size to the length of 7 spaces was all we need for RGB. I managed to poke the wires from the cable on the d connector into the female connector on the hard drive ribbon cable, and am now waiting for the glue to dry! Now, to scrounge some RCA connectors for the sound :-) I know that Atari are not making RGB cables because of the immense variety of combinations possible, but wouldn't it nice if they could bring out a connector to the Jaguar that ends in free wires for us to make our own monitor side? ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 98 Mon Apr 18, 1994 AEO.MAG [?] Travis [?] at 04:26 EDT //// Matt, | You _kill_ me! :^) Would you think it rude if I were to respond to that by saying, "I try"? ;-) //// Tony, : Anyone have a "direct line" to the-powers-that-be at id Software? Just Internet EMail. Down today. :-( //// K.BENDER1 | Yes, Tempest 2000 is better than sex. Oh? | But the controller bites. [Terribly funny response deleted as this is a family forum; besides, Matt's dead.] --Travis ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 99 Mon Apr 18, 1994 R.JONES82 [Bob Jones] at 06:11 EDT I was wondering the same thing. Did you get any confirmation that your order was placed? I did not but Tempest is out in the local Babages in Lansing Michigan and Lansing is not one of the top 10 or even top 100 markets. They had it for 49.00. I wish we knew, I would pay the extra few dollars and get it here. Bob J. D.MUNSIE I don't know about frame rates of the NES and genesis, but Doom does not run at over 30 FPS on a 486. I have a 486 66DX2 PCI local bus with 8 meg ram a PCI 2 meg Genoa graphics local bus card and I get 40 FPS on a 3D benchmark running without sound or any of the other background calculations that DOOM must do. With a 40MHZ 486 local bus with a DOS local bus card you are lucky to get 30 FPS. A Gateway 486 33 non local bus PC does around 15 FPS on the Benchmark. Actually 20 FPS is pretty decent for most things. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 100 Mon Apr 18, 1994 ICDINC [Tom] at 09:38 EDT Graham, It's called CatBox. :-) - TOM - ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 101 Mon Apr 18, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin!] at 11:52 EDT Tom, When is it going to be available? --Kevin ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 102 Mon Apr 18, 1994 ARCHIVIST [Charlie] at 13:46 EDT Steve-J, I think Atari has been burned with the 'Vapourware' lable too many times. Not talking about upcoming games (even more so if they're not making the games themselves and don't REALLY know what the progress is) is a good idea IMHO. When the game is done Atari can come on here and tell us 'Oh, company so-and-so just sent their game such-and-such off to the factory. It should be out in a few weeks.' That's good enough for me. The 4-6 weeks it takes to get a game packaged and distributed is pleanty of time to hype it up without running the risk of disappointing delays. Charlie/sysop ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 103 Mon Apr 18, 1994 C.SMITH89 [CLINT/A.P.E.] at 19:07 EDT I picked up the May issue of Diehard Gamefan today and it's another MUST buy. In the Jag section they have 2 pages of Wolf-3D shots and it looks great(makes the SNES version look sad). The 3rd page has 6 shots of Club Drive(some really sharp looking 3-d), 4 shots of Brutal Sports Football (the graphics look incredible, arcade quality), 6 shots of Checkered Flag (I think you'll want to check it out, especially the complex 3-d hills along the side of the road in the 3rd shot from the left on top). Finally, they have 2 shots from AvP. These show a working motion tracker and they show that the knife has been nixed from the marine's arsenal(I always thought that would be a pretty useless weapon). What's been added you say? Hicks would be pleased...it's a shotgun(and they show it in use in the shots). In the Most Wanted list, AvP is ranked 6th and Kasumi Ninja is ranked 9th. The issue also has the 2 page ad for Tempest 2000(for a laugh check out the description for the Demon Heads). In the text, they indicate that there's a strong possibility that when the next Mortal Monday rolls around (in September), Mortal Kombat 2 will be coming out for more than just the SNES and Genesis. They also have some nice comments from the Pres of Jaleco USA. They're doing 2 titles this year(possibly Cisco Heat(an arcade cops n robbers driving shooting game) and Bases Loaded(baseball title)). They also plan to do CD games. Tengen has signed on to develop. Along with Creature Shock, Virgin will also be doing Dragon(Bruce Lee martial arts game) and Demolition Man. A company called Eclipse is working on a 1st person 3-d shooter(a la Battletach) with the name Iron Soldier. Interplay might be doing Clayfighter. Trimark is doing White Men Can't Jump and maybe Warlock. They also mention Sculptured, JVC, and Imagineer as close to signing(we know that Sculptured and Imagineer have...JVC would mean we might see Star Wars games). And they also mention that Tiny Toons has been delayed til September(they're reworking the entire game). The European section features a 2 page interview with Rebellion. They have 6 shots from the intro sequence from AvP. These are 24-bit(16 million color mode) and I can't even begin to describe how amazing these shots look. They also have 4 shots from the dungeons of "Legions of the Undead" and again, stunning. The standard Europa column has 7 amazing looking screenshots from Imagitec's CD game, Freelancer. It's also going to be Comlynxable for multi-player. Imagitec is also doing their Dino-Dudes sequel( I think it's called Evolution:Lost in Time). They also have a shot from Atari's Chaos Agenda (incredible looking also). There are also 4 really cool looking shots from Ocean's APES(A bubble bobble type game). Ocean's Lobo game is going to be a CD shoot'em up title. They also mention a game called Cheesy that Ocean is distributing(from someone called CTA). Finally, the popular European title, Cannon Fodder is also being brought to the Jag. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 104 Mon Apr 18, 1994 J.KIMBALL [James] at 20:37 EDT I'm kinda disapointed too. I wish that they would give us an idea what to expect. We've all got an idea what the 3rd party devs are upto, (based on the devs lists out here in library land). Just think, Assuming this jag picks up like we all hope it does, We could be up to our gills in carts. Too many to buy. Right now the is only a small handfull carts that we like (2 or 3) and so we all bought them. It is possible to have so many carts available that we couldn't buy them all. I can hear it now on the bbs.... I just got "Chainsaw masecre on the playground" and it is awesome!.... Shucks I can't get another cart til next week, I just got "Afterbirth Onslaught" and it is good too, maybe next week I'll get Chainsaw....No no, I got a better one than both, it's "Virtua Sex" and it _comes_ with virtual helmets for both heads. Sorry didn't mean to have so much creative fun. But you get the point. One day it could be that we walk into to TRU and we will spend an hour deciding which game to get! Of course that is Supposing that Atari can keep the machines, and games in the stores to meet the demand. And more and more mags cover it heavy. Like I said, catches on like wildfire. ------ I gotta get this next DHGF mag. Clint really made it sound good. Altho he probably covered everything, I'll get it anyway just to drool on the pics :) Did everyone here him? He said CF2 has hills! Ooooo Aaaaa I'm happy! Now if it handles like a car I'll die. Oooo What if it was comlynx/modem capable? Great Scott that would be just heaven!!! Can't wait to get my mag! I'm gonna get mine tomarrow! Thanks Clint! ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 105 Mon Apr 18, 1994 G.GEORGE3 [Fruitman] at 22:24 EDT So, did Atari actually INVENT the Fuji symbol? I had always thought that it was designed by someone in Japan FOR Mt. Fuji.... Fruitty ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 106 Mon Apr 18, 1994 ICDINC [Tom] at 23:17 EDT KEvin, Early next month. - TOM - ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 107 Tue Apr 19, 1994 K.DRAKE [Sir Fransis] at 01:10 EDT Travis, <<"Play GameBoy games on your SNES" cart. That could blow the whole video game market apart. Not.>> Of course, you realize that this is their way of building a software base for an upcoming color portable. Why else would they sell an adaptor that allows you to essentially play SNES games on a smaller cart? Pretty clever. I hope Atari can use this kind of strategy in the future (having the software done _before_ the hardware). Still Sailing, Sir Fransis ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 108 Tue Apr 19, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 03:04 EDT Travis - And it was a good try, too! Try again! Try harder! Try often! (I've always said... I don't mind dying... as long as it's quick and painless!) Matt (the resurected!) ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 109 Tue Apr 19, 1994 STEVE-J [EeEckyThump!] at 04:38 EDT By the way, who makes the JagDaptor??? I know it's distributed by MARS Merchandising, but did they also make it? If not, who did? G.GEORGE3 - Well, Atari paid a graphic designer to 'invent' the Atari symbol for them. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 110 Tue Apr 19, 1994 J.BATTEY1 [J. L. Battey] at 22:05 EDT Just in case anyone saw the list of places that the EGM tour would be appearing and planned on coming to Vista Ridge Mall in Lewisville (just north of Dallas), Texas, I have been told by the management of the mall that they "turned the show down" because they "don't want a bunch of kids loitering around for two days". Instead, the show will be at Town East Mall on the east edge of Dallas. The big difference is that the kids who loiter on the north side of town almost all have their own copy of daddy's credit card(s), but the mall managers on the east side have brains that work. John L. PS: If Dallas is one of the "ten major markets", there sure hasn't been any sign of it. No ads that I or anyone in my acqaintence have seen or heard & no increase in availablity of product. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 111 Wed Apr 20, 1994 C.CASSADAY [Parrot Head] at 03:28 EDT John, When is that mall show planned in Dallas? I might have to drive up and check it out. Chris ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 112 Wed Apr 20, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 19:03 EDT T2K _finally_ arrived in my mailbox today. I'd tell you all about it, but I'm too busy playing. ;-) Very nice game. Certainly a Minter-class experience. ~dmj ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 114 Thu Apr 21, 1994 C.SMITH89 [CLINT/A.P.E.] at 19:39 EDT I looked at the latest issue of Computer Games-Strategy Plus magazine today and they have an interview with ID Software(By the way there's going to be an RTC Monday with ID over in the Scorpia Roundtable. I won't be attending(the Dateline Ataris put enough of a strain on my finances as it is) but I'm sure somebody from over here will check it out and let us know of anything interesting). The magazine asked them what they're working on and they mentioned the Jag Doom. Later on, they asked about other versions and why ID chose the Jag. They really like the Jag's price and think that it's going to sell. They also like it's parallel architecture and they like to work without an operating system(they said that if they did do a 3DO version it would probably end up crashing the next time the 3DO's OS got revised). ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 115 Thu Apr 21, 1994 D.VANTREASE [Shadow] at 19:50 EDT I called Atari customer service today and asked them if they had a release date for AvP yet. The lady told me 'no'. I asked if there was even a "ballpark rough-idea timeframe", she replied "Uh... well... early June, I think." (But she sounded _very_ unsure.) Does anyone know the real scoop? What the heck happened to the Atari people here on GEnie? Also, a quick question about release dates... Why is it that software stores have such INACCURATE release dates? I'm not "in the business", so who is responsible for keeping dealers up-to-date on these? Is ATARI responsible, and not informing them? Or does Atari get the word out to the distributors, and the DISTRIBUTORS are not telling their stores? Someone sure is dropping the ball. Sure, there are going to be delays, but the dealers should be kept up-to- date... -Shadow- ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 116 Thu Apr 21, 1994 C.OINES1 [Chazz] at 22:03 EDT The main reason is us Software Developer Slackers. We can _guess_ when we'll be done with a game, but that guess usually is more wishful thinking than anything else. It's not at all uncommon for a game to be pushed back anywhere from a few weeks to two years (witness Origin Systems' Strike Commander...) because of unforseen problems in coding, or he decides to rewrite the main game engine from the ground up nine times, or he finds an undiscovered bug in the Sega Dev Kit, or the main programmer gets a few weeks of workman's comp when some guy fixing the LAN cables falls through the false ceiling and breaks his arms or the lead artist goes on a two-week bender after his fiancee ditches him for some shmuck with real money and he ends up in Rehab for six more weeks... Not that the above happens very often, mind you. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 117 Thu Apr 21, 1994 AEO.1 [Albert Dayes] at 23:28 EDT In the past someone mentioned that he was considering making a paddle controller for the Jag. Is that person still working on it? ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 118 Fri Apr 22, 1994 STEVE-J [EeEckyThump!] at 04:39 EDT D.VANTREASE - Well, I've OFFERED to take care of that for Atari, but I haven't heard a response yet! AEO.1 - Since TEMPEST 2000 supports a paddle ("rotary") controller via an easter egg code, I'd say there's such a controller down the road! ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 119 Fri Apr 22, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin!] at 08:09 EDT Anyone on here (besides Atari itself) familiar with mfr process for 'plastic based thingys' like a paddle controller? I know how to make working prototypes of just about anything, but when it comes to mass production... I haven't got a clue as to what would need to be done. :) --Kevin ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 120 Fri Apr 22, 1994 ICDINC [Tom] at 08:16 EDT Kevin, We've done our share of plastic thingies. It only takes talent and money. And lots of the $$. - TOM - ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 121 Fri Apr 22, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin!] at 11:18 EDT Tom, That's more what I'm wondering about... how much $$$ to make them? How many need to sell at x $ to break even? How likely would y of them sell in how long? Would a paddle type controller for the Jag sell well, or only to us 'die hards'? What about distribution? Could 'we' get it the distribution necessary to sell lots of them (Toy'sRThem, Cabbages, _WalSmart_, etc)? What about lots of other 'useless' but well selling things like are available for the NintenDoze? I'm interested in investing time &/or money (what I can) with a group of others if we seriously think we could pull it off. Sort of a way to minimize the individual's investment risk, yet have a decent potential payback. I guess the big question is "Will Atari make Lead outta Gold?" :) Tell me what ya think in GEmail (so we don't get slaughtered by the TopiCops)... --Kevin ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 122 Fri Apr 22, 1994 JULI.WADE [Juli @ Atari] at 11:19 EDT SHADOW - You can count on *at least* another 3 weeks in development for AvP. Then, it's 8 weeks for manufacturing. As far as where the dealers get their availability info, I'm guessing they get it from the game magazines. With their 3-month lead times, whenever there's a delay, the mags always end up being "wrong" (when they're actually just "out of date"...). CHAZZ - THANK YOU for explaining the sort of stuff we have to wait for from game programmers!!! (Maybe people will have a little sympathy now...?!?) well, I tried...... =-) ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 123 Fri Apr 22, 1994 WETMORE [Tony] at 17:52 EDT Juli, Hmmmm, 3 weeks for "development", then 8 weeks for "manufacturing". Are you guys planning any time for testing? -Tony ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 124 Fri Apr 22, 1994 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 19:39 EDT Juli: All I can say to the AvP programmers is: "Take your time, and do it right!" I'm glad to see that Atari has taken a similar stance, and isn't rushing things out just to "have n+1 titles" like other 32+ bit console manufacturers seem to do. AvP promises to be a killer game, and it has received a lot of hype in the press. We _do not_ want some minor bug to tarnish the reputation of the game, because a _lot_ of attention is going to be focused on it. It's the price you pay for hyping things up. Maybe I'll see you at SCES? ____________________ \hunderbird @ IAJD ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 125 Fri Apr 22, 1994 C.OINES1 [Chazz] at 19:48 EDT My pleasure, Juli. I'm a sucker for a pretty smiley... :-) ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 126 Fri Apr 22, 1994 E.BAIZ at 22:15 EDT Thunderbird, I agree with you. I hope every Jag developer takes their time. This will ensure the games will be the very best. I can wait a LONG time for a good game. Besides, it really saves me money. <> ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 127 Fri Apr 22, 1994 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 22:21 EDT Has anyone MADE a paddle controller for T2K??? -Tom ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 128 Fri Apr 22, 1994 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 22:57 EDT Hmm 11 weeks til AvP? Actually since that estimate comes from Atari, we should probably double it. All I can say is that it had better be here by Halloween or Atari will miss the Christmas selling season. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 129 Fri Apr 22, 1994 D.VANTREASE [Shadow] at 23:12 EDT Oh by all means, YES, I agree and encourage developers to "take their time and do it right", and did not mean to imply that I was upset about AvP (or anything else) being delayed. My point was simply that the DEALERS have such out-dated information. If their best source is the mags, then that's a shame. I was hoping that there was some type of regular communication between developers and distributors. I wouldn't mind of a game was delayed 6 or even 12 months due to improvements, but I don't like dealers being so uninformed and telling customers "Our list says it will be out in 2 weeks, so go ahead and pre-order!". Shadow ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 130 Sat Apr 23, 1994 STEVE-J [EeEckyThump!] at 05:53 EDT WETMORE - Testing counts as part of development time (since squashing bugs found in testing requires more coding to fix). If there's about 3 weeks of development left, they've probably been heavily testing the past few weeks to locate any remaining bugs -- until testers find bugs, the developers just work on intro/end sequences and such. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 131 Sat Apr 23, 1994 ICDINC [Tom] at 08:41 EDT Juli, Can we look for ComLynx support in AvsP or at least 2 player support? One of my twins always gets bored watching the other play a solo game. I think ComLynx will be an important feature in selling future Jaguar games although AvsP will sell fine without it. - TOM - ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 132 Sat Apr 23, 1994 C.SMITH89 [CLINT/A.P.E.] at 08:55 EDT Tom, based on the interview in Diehard Gamefan it looks like AvP is one-player(but they'll probably dabble in comlynx on future projects). ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 133 Sat Apr 23, 1994 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 10:11 EDT Re: Tempest 2000 Paddles... I'm sure I could make one, but I'm so busy I don't really have the time to do it. An adapter for the 2600 driving controller would probably work too, but I don't know where you'd get the extra 'fire' buttons from. ICDINC: You'll have to buy another jaguar/TV if you want both twins playing AvP at the same time... _________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 134 Sat Apr 23, 1994 W.FAANES [Bill] at 12:20 EDT The impression I got at the Sacramento Atari Expo was that the A v P wouldn't have two player support. However, I was also given the impression that in the future a cd rom version of the game would be multi-player and have _all_ the goodies... The cd rom part was presented as a _possible_ future scenario , not as a fact. This was 6 weeks or so ago. I wish I could go to every show that Atari is at and maybe would be able to fit the many pieces of the Jaguar puzzle together.. :) Bill ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 135 Sat Apr 23, 1994 E.MICHARD at 17:23 EDT Well, at the current rate, it looks like the next time we'll be able to see ANYTHING new for the Jaguar is at the Summer CES, assuming they decide to show up. And what ever happened to all the 3rd party titles we were supposed to see in March/April, Mr Brodie??? Any of the March/April/May titles, period. I'm getting a definite deja vu feeling here...Are you sure this thing isn't called the Lynx III or something? And nobody better tell me 'It's worth the wait' or similar nonsense, because I'm beginning to doubt that ANYTHING is worth the crap we're all being fed here. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 136 Sat Apr 23, 1994 CYBERMAN at 18:44 EDT Thunderbird: Port a 2600 paddle controller?? Yuk! I think I would prefer a mechanism similar to that used in mice and trackballs. (that way you aren't limited in paddle travel). *Geoff!* ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 137 Sat Apr 23, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 19:23 EDT E.MICHARD, - I'm beginning to doubt that ANYTHING is worth the crap we're all - being fed here. Okay, that's a valid opinion. It's your opinion. But this _is_ the Jaguar topic, in the Jaguar category, in the Atari roundtable. What do you _really_ expect to see here? Everybody saying how wonderful a SNES is? If you don't like what you read here, nobody's forcing you to read it; I screen out most of this roundtable because I'm not interested in what's being said. I bought a Jaguar a little over a month ago; at the time there was really only one game I wanted, and that was CyberMorph. Lucky for me it happened to come with the machine. I enjoyed the game quite a bit, and was disappointed when I finished it. (Disappointed that there was no more; not at all disappointed with the game.) This week I also got Tempest 2000. This is, to me, a more intense game than I have seen anywhere. Yes, the graphics in other PC games are more detailed... but the _feeling_ of T2K is "WOW!" Last week I installed Doom on my PC. The graphics were nice, and on the PC I have (a 486/50) it ran pretty fast, but it wasn't the same feeling. I understand your skepticism of Atari. Usually I'm pretty skeptical of Atari myself, and I don't hold my breath waiting for anything Atari says they'll do. I bought a Jaguar because it had a game _right_now_ that I wanted to play. I didn't buy it because Atari promised a CD player; part of my day job is seeing all sorts of CD games, and to me, most are junk. I bought it because I wanted to play CyberMorph, and because I had a _reasonable_ expectation that other games were available. (If T2K had been delayed a month, I might have bought Raiden.) So go ahead and wait. Don't buy a Jaguar until something _actually_ _exists_ that you want to play on it. Don't want to play T2K, CyberMorph, Raiden, Crescent Galaxy, or Evolution: Dino Dudes? If not, then WHY ON EARTH should you think about buying a Jaguar? Only an idiot would try to talk you into buying something you have no need for. When/if AvP, Doom, or the other games arrive, then is the time to rethink your decision. Maybe you'll still feel the same way, and if so, that's fine. If you believe the Jaguar has no future at all, then why do you even bother stopping by here? I seriously doubt you will convince many people _here_ that the Jaguar is hopeless--and for those who already own one, there is no point in telling them that anyway; even if only two more games show up for the Jaguar--ever--then that's two more games that they can play. They've already got the system; that investment can't be refunded at this point. I rambled here more than I intended. Maybe I should lay off the caffeine... ~dmj ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 138 Sat Apr 23, 1994 R.GRIDLEY [Rick G] at 19:25 EDT I am getting very antsy about the lack of software for the Jag as well. we were told that by April we would be seeing some stuff really kick in but its still very sparse and as of now I cannot recommened a JAG to friends until the software situation improves. I have had my JAG since November and frankly its collecting a lot of dust. I am dying for a good sports title for it and in fact am about to repurchase a Genesis to play World Series Baseball on. Still keeping the Jag but WHERE ARE THE TITLES?? ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 139 Sat Apr 23, 1994 E.BAIZ at 20:14 EDT Rick, I can understand your feelings, but just keep waiting. When the titles finally come, they will be worth the wait and they will be better then any Genesis game you can buy. As for you DMJ, keeping talking. I love the way you think. <> ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 140 Sat Apr 23, 1994 WETMORE [Tony] at 22:23 EDT Rick, Personally, I've kept my Genesis even though I now have a Jaguar as well. I have NO intention of giving up my Genesis anytime soon. I don't have a problem owning =2= game consoles, myself. [:-) I may try to rent World Series Baseball - I've heard it's REALLY good. If it is, I may actually buy it. No problem. [;-) I'll probably end up buying Virtua Racing for the Genesis when (if?! the Jaguar isn't the only system with "delays", you know ) it comes out. 'Spose that's life as a video game junkie... I'm getting used to delays with the Jaguar software, actually. Am I disappointed? Of course! Am I surprised? Not really. I am glad, though, that the developers are taking the time and making sure the games are RIGHT before they are released. I can be patient when I have to... I hope! -Tony ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 141 Sat Apr 23, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 23:24 EDT Cyberman, - I think I would prefer a mechanism similar to that used in - mice and trackballs. (that way you aren't limited in paddle - travel). The problem with these techniques (opto-mechanical encoder) is that you must decode the pattern of on-off signals. If you do not decode them fast enough (i.e. if you miss one of the changes) the paddle would appear to move backwards. Try this with your mouse sometime; move it very quickly, and it will move backwards. You could sample the device faster, but this means you're wasting CPU time on your controller. You could put the sampling stuff on a chip and embed it in the controller, and just have it send data to the CPU over a serial line; PC mice do this. But that makes the controller more expensive and more complicated (not to mention the fact that the CPU must then handle a serial transmission). What you _really_ want is a free-spinning paddle controller with a good A/D converter. Then the CPU can just read the A/D converter, which has done all the work of figuring out where the paddle is. No messy serial communication; it's free-spinning so there are no motion restrictions; and it's cheap and easy to make. Just an opinion, of course. ~dmj ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 142 Sun Apr 24, 1994 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 00:18 EDT CYBERMAN: >Port a 2600 paddle controller?? Yuk! I think I would prefer a mechanism >similar to that used in mice and trackballs. (that way you aren't >limited in paddle travel). I don't think I said "Paddle" controller. If I did, I meant "Driving Controller" instead. I'm too tired to check what I said so I'll correct myself anyways. ___________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 143 Sun Apr 24, 1994 E.MICHARD at 01:10 EDT DMJ - You got at least one thing wrong in your post- I already have a Jaguar. I bought it in Feb, after I read several posts here from Bob Brodie at Atari that there would be all of these new titles. At the time, the On-line conferences I read quoted him saying Tempest 2k in feb and 3rd party and other titles (AvP, CF2, Club Drive) in march/april. I 'bother to hang around here' becuase I am a Jaguar owner, and am interested in seeing new things for it. I am NOT trying to convince anyone not to buy or that the Jaguar is hopeless, because I don't believe it myself. I am merely trying to get one thing that has been sincerely lacking, a little HONESTY about game releases. I'm sorry if you don't like hearing my skepticism, but this is supposed to be a forum, and not a censored propaganda outlet. I think that by now a video game company like Atari should be better able to estimate when a cart will be ready for release. If it's going to be July, say July. Don't say March and then keep pushing it back until July. Just because this is an Atari Jaguar topic DOES NOT mean that everything said here should be in praise of the Jaguar and Atari. You were the one who mentioned SNES, not me. If the only purpose of this Message topic is to talk about how wonderful the Jaguar is, then maybe I am in the wrong place. I thought it was about exchanging INFORMATION, not 100% propaganda. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 144 Sun Apr 24, 1994 S.FOSKETT [Lancer] at 02:16 EDT Thunderbird: I agree too. I was heartened to hear that the reason AvP was delayed was to improve playability! After seeing the pretty pictures, it would really piss me off if the game was unplayable!!! It's nice to see someone caring about playability besides Jeff Minter! DMJ: I agree. I'm not buying a Jag until it's worth it for me: T2000 is a step, but I'm waiting until I can go into a store and walk out with a Jag, T2000, AvP, DOOM, and Wolf3D. I'm not buying one a day before that. Once I DO get those games (assuming they're good as they SOUND) the Jag'll be worth it to me. After that it'll all be frosting on the cake. Before that it's all just flour to me... ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 145 Sun Apr 24, 1994 S.LEGRAND [Oppressor] at 02:19 EDT The antsiness is understandable but sheesh guys you're dealing with 3rd party hackers who are doing their first game on an unfamiliar system. Don't buy a jaguar if you fear there will never be any titles... Let Atari prove they mean business before you give them yours. That's just good horse-sense. If you've bought a jaguar already, take a look at T2K, it's a killer... Your jag will lose its dust if you buy this one... To put things into perspective, I have an SNES, which has gazillions of titles out there. Guess how many I own? StarFox, SFII-Turbo, Star Wars, and F-Zero. The rest are smeggin' garbage IMO. If I had a 3DO, I'd own Crash and Burn, Total Eclipse, and the Horde and the rest IMO are smeggin' crap. Right now, the jaguar has two killer titles and it's only been out 5 months. None of my SNES killer titles were available until the machine had been out a year. Atari is doing well, it would be nice to have those must-have titles out by system release, but that never happens. The best one seems to see is one good title out with the system and then a trickling of titles over the next year. Do you really think Project Reality and the Saturn will pop onto the shelves with 10 or more titles? I doubt this very much unless they delay it until it's obsolete... Scott ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 146 Sun Apr 24, 1994 M.POCHE [Mick] at 04:06 EDT E.MICHARD (Eric?) I don't believe that Bob Brodie (or anyone else at Atari for that matter) is being anything less than 'honest' when he gives out estimates of release dates for various games. Mr. Brodie's job is not an easy one. We Atari owners can be very demanding, and usually of him, since he's the one who has been the main contact with 'the corporation' for us. Considering what he has to put up with sometimes, it's amazing he doesn't take a hike. What I'm trying to say is.... I honestly believe Atari is trying their very best to get you accurate release dates and to get the games out as close to these dates as possible. However, don't take these dates as gospel because anything can happen, and usually does. As for the third parties..... I don't think you can really blame Atari for late games from them. The games will come... maybe a little late, maybe a lot late.... some, maybe never, but there will be games. - Mick P.S. I hope you don't consider this 'propaganda'. It's just the way I see it. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 147 Sun Apr 24, 1994 STEVE-J [EeEckyThump!] at 06:24 EDT D.ENGEL - Since TEMPEST 2000 requires the use of 3 fire buttons (especially in the warp levels!) w/ a paddle controller, that WOULD be a problem. E.MICHARD - Delays happen ALL THE TIME on ALL platforms (e.g. VIRTUA RACING for the Genesis, tens of 3DO titles, the infamous vaporware SNES CD-ROM, the Sega SATURN -- which now appears to be a LATE '95 release, plus countless titles for other systems -- and even without Microsoft being involved...except maybe in the case of SATURN! ). Atari doesn't seem to keep tabs on its 3rd party Jaguar developers, which I find a bit bothersome, but I don't believe any of what's been said about these things has been purposely misleading. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 148 Sun Apr 24, 1994 E.MICHARD at 08:41 EDT Mick - I disagree with your line 'Considering what he has to put up with sometimes, it's amazing he doesn't take a hike.' Despite the common attitude here, the Customer is the most important factor in the whole equation. They're not doing us a favor by 'putting up with' us. We're doing _them_ a favor by buying the system and software, so it's in their best interest to keep us happy. And one more thing - In the responses to my latest posts, I see everyone saying basically that 'delays happen all the time', 'Everyone knows about these delays' and that they are basically accepted. So how about , for once, a company actually incorporating EXTRA time into it's release 'estimate' ? How hard would that be? If they happpen all the time, and are seen as 'normal', then obviously there is something seriously wrong with the methods used for 'estimating' when a title will be finally released. It appears to me that they are deliberately being much too optimistic in their estimates. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 149 Sun Apr 24, 1994 C.SMITH89 [CLINT/A.P.E.] at 10:10 EDT To be fair, at the last RTC, Bob wasn't giving any release dates even though we kept asking about it. Even if companies did figure in a delay the game would most likely still miss it's release date by a couple months. Checkered Flag 2 probably could've been out by now but they weren't quite happy with it and decided to improve it. They probably could've released AvP by it's suggested release date but it still needed more work on the gameplay. Id was able to port over Wolf-3D and Doom in a matter of days. They could've released those months ago but they wanted to upgrade the titles for the Jag enviroment. Batman Returns on the Lynx actually hit it's release date to correspond with the movie opening but wouldn't it have been nice if they had waited longer and gave it more gameplay? Aladdin for the Genesis is a highly regarded title that was done in record time and came out when they said it would. On the surface that sounds like a bad example until you hear that the programmers had even more that they wanted to put into the game but they didn't have the time. A great title could've been exceptional. Steve, actually I think Atari is keeping tabs with it's third parties(witness the recent developer's conferences in San Francisco and London). I'm guessing that Atari doesn't want to step on anybody's toes by announcing that something will be out at a certain time, then it's not and Jag owners start complaining to the developer who then decides to say, "screw this". It's up to third party companies to announce to the public when their game is coming out. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 150 Sun Apr 24, 1994 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 10:10 EDT E.Michard: I know of several Jaguar games in the works which have _no_ release date set because the developers do not want to feel pressured from people who are overzealous and short on patience. The dates announced by Atari are estimates set by the programmers and developers of the games and are not set in stone. A lot of the dates we see here come directly from the developers themselves via magazine interviews, etc. and are not even the 'official word from Atari'. Give the programmers a break. Writing games (or _any_ software, for that matter) is a art form depending heavily on unquantifyable factors like "creativity" and "inspiration", etc. Programming is _not_ a process which can be expediated by throwing more money or people at a project. If you want endless streams of "on time" programs, then I suggest you purchase one of the fine systems from Nintendo or Sega who have developers who employ 3rd World "Sweat Shops" to design their "Me-Too" Mediocre Dull Platform Game Clones under time deadlines and fear of management retribution for lateness. Being an art form makes judging completion times very difficult, and I believe the estimates given by the developers are certainly in good faith, and the delays are being caused by _improvements_ to the programs which will benefit the buyers in the end. _________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 151 Sun Apr 24, 1994 S.WINICK at 10:17 EDT Kevin, >> I guess the big question is "Will Atari make Lead outta Gold?" :) The Atari trail is littered with excellent dealers and developers who invested in the 'potential' of the Atari platform. The Tramiel's track record is solid -- they have consistently produced excellent hardware that pushed the envelope..... and consistently turned that 'gold' into 'lead'. We've also heard the 'this time will be different' story before. If you really believe it this time, go for it and develop that paddle controller. The Tramiel's track record is against your success, but the law of averages would probably indicate that even THEY are overdue to make a mistage and actually succeed at marketing SOMETHING! Sheldon (Computer STudio - Asheville, NC) ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 152 Sun Apr 24, 1994 S.WINICK at 10:18 EDT Juli @ Atari, >> As far as where the dealers get their availability info, I'm >> guessing they get it from the game magazines. Perhaps if Atari would communicate with their dealers, the entire Atari community wouldn't have to undergo this continual stream of incorrect information and rumor. Atari communicate with their dealers...... wow!!! Wouldn't that be a novel idea! Sheldon (Computer STudio - Asheville, NC) ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 153 Sun Apr 24, 1994 S.WINICK at 10:20 EDT Shadow, >> ....but I don't like dealers being so uninformed and telling >> customers "Our list says it will be out in 2 weeks, so go >> ahead and pre-order!". Part of the problem may lie with the customers themselves, who go out of their way to encourage such practices; and it may not be merely a case of "dealers being so uninformed". Over the years I have encountered numerous cases of customers calling around until they found a dealer who told them what they wanted to hear. You wouldn't believe how many times I've honestly told callers that the 'new' Atari product they were asking about wasn't yet available and we would not take a deposit to confirm an order until we had a definite delivery date and our shipment from Atari confirmed, only to have that customer call us back later to tell us that another dealer had the product coming in "soon" or "next week" and took their pre-order... and deposit or full payment in advance. Sheldon (Computer STudio - Asheville, NC) ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 154 Sun Apr 24, 1994 K.DRAKE [Sir Fransis] at 11:59 EDT STEVE-J, I think Atari keeps tabs on their 3rd party developers, it's just that so many of them are working on the "dream" game they've wanted to do for a long time, they don't want anyone stealing their ideas until they're so close to release that noone has a chance of putting out their idea before them. Also, we know there are more than 100 developers but for some reason they don't want to be known. Since we don't know them, we don't know their games. E. MICHARD, <> Here's one I hadn't thought about. You ever notice how the games that are most eagerly awaited are the ones that take the longest to come out? If I owned BumCorp and was putting out Bum's Adventure, I could probably get it out on time because noone's expecting anything. AvP, though, has gotten so much hype...I mean originally the gun was not going to be seen on the bottom of the screen, then they put in the gun barrell THEN they put in the shotgun with arm...the better known it is, the more people expect of it and the more developers have to do to meet expectations. Hence delays. Using this method, I suspect AvP II will take two years to finish! :) S.WINICK, <> I had someone call my TRU yesterday and ask if we had MKII. I told them no and that development was still undergoing. They said,"No it's not because there's another store that's selling them now!!" Fine. Still Sailing, Sir Fransis ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 155 Sun Apr 24, 1994 RHETT [Mr.Anderson] at 13:12 EDT >>I think that by now a video game company like Atari should be better able to estimate when a cart will be ready for release. For a new platform the the Jaguar? Right. As someone who works for a software company, let me tell you that _no one_ knows when software is going to be ready. The best I've ever been able to do is say, "well, this ssection of the code will take at least 2 weeks, this section will take at least 1 week, etc.) What Atari _should_ know by now is that they don't know when these games are going to be ready. The best strategy is to not give dates. I said in this forum six months ago that it takes a year to make a competitive game. If you really push it (meaning you spend twice as much money), you can do it in 9 months. The only time it takes less time than that is when you port a game over from another platform. That's a three to eight month job, in general. Now, if Atari had embraced my knowledge and experience (or their own) and said that there would be a bunch of great games out in a year, they'd probably be out of business now. So who can blame them? Anyone who thought that there was going to be a pile of software coming out anytime soon was being misled, or just plain didn't understand how games are made. >>So how about, for once, a company actually incorporating EXTRA time into its release 'estimate'? It doesn't work that way. First, any project expands to fit the extra time. "Well, since we have the extra time, maybe we should do _this_ better. Maybe we should add _that_ feature." Secondly (as I once heard in a programmers' meeting), "If we told them how long it would really take, they'd never approve the project." >>I know of several Jaguar games in the works which have _no_ release date set... Bravo for them. Some studies show that projects whith no release dates actually take less time than those with release dates. Why? Because without the pressure of the date, programmers actually take the time to test their code as they go and find the best solutions, minimizing the number of inscrutable bugs which show up near the end of projects. This tack of using no date is more common with internal projects (those that don't need to be sold to a consumeer) because marketing and PR don't have to be involved. Try to tell PR and marketing that your project doesn't have a deadline and see what happens. It's ugly. They need to know when a project will be released because of the lead time involved in their jobs. Of course, if you give them a date, it's wrong. As a result, these people live miserable lives and spend a lot of time wishing they were off fishing. --Rhett ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 156 Sun Apr 24, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 13:38 EDT E.MICHARD, - I'm sorry if you don't like hearing my skepticism, but - this is supposed to be a forum, and not a censored propaganda - outlet. In case you missed it, I _did_ say I shared your skepticism. I explained that I didn't buy a Jaguar based on Atari's promises, precisely because those promises have not been reliable in the past. - I think that by now a video game company like Atari should be - better able to estimate when a cart will be ready for release. Have you ever developed software? It is a creative effort. It's not like digging a ditch--with a ditch, you can see how much you've dug, estimate how much is left, and make a sensible projection on when you're done. You'll probably be reasonably accurate. Writing software is not even remotely similar. You can "guess" at how much is left; you can "guess" at how long it might take to complete that. But they are just guesses. It is absolutely impossible to tell beforehand just how long it will take to design something, to write it, to debug it. There are too many variables. Also keep in mind that it's not only Atari developing some of these carts you're seeing delayed. So Atari isn't the only one giving "bogus" release dates. - Just because this is an Atari Jaguar topic DOES NOT mean that - everything said here should be in praise of the Jaguar and Atari. Agreed. But your comments about all the "crap" you see here didn't exactly seem in order either. I was trying to point out that this IS the Jaguar topic; don't be surprised if you _do_ see some very pro-Jaguar posts. You don't have to like them; sometimes they're a little thick for me to swallow too. But you better expect them, here. Removing _them_ would be just the same censorship you accuse me of trying to do. ~dmj ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 157 Sun Apr 24, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin!] at 14:54 EDT Sheldon, Heh... :) I knew that quote would bring you out of lurk mode. That's why I think a group "investment" would be better (less risk per individual) given Atari's track record. That's why I order my Jag stuff from you. :) I know that when you say, "It will be here on x day." that you are 99.9% sure of when the shipment will arrive (barring snowstorms in Dec ). I'm not "rabid" for Jag stuff tho'. When its ready, I'll see if it is what I want. If I want it, I get it. BTW, T2K is really fun. :) T-Bird, I hear ya! :) That's why I won't give release dates for anything. --Kevin ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 158 Sun Apr 24, 1994 M.POCHE [Mick] at 16:05 EDT E.MICHARD, In my defense of Bob Brodie, I was just putting myself into his shoes, or at least what I've seen of them on GEnie. Atari's presence here on GEnie is, in my opinion, a favor to us all. They definitely are not required to be here. It seems that when giving out release dates, Atari (and many other companies) can get a little overly optimistic. Perhaps it would be better if they just told us that there won't be any new Jaguar games ready for release until 1995? That way, when one _does_ get released before that date, we'll all be happy that it is early! :) - Mick ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 159 Sun Apr 24, 1994 E.HALLIWELL at 19:23 EDT Stevee-J, what do you mean by, "TEMPEST 2000 requires the use of 3 fire buttons (especially in the warp levels!)"? To my knowledge, the warp levels don't use _any_ fire buttons. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 160 Sun Apr 24, 1994 KEBAUM [bobo] at 21:34 EDT Did anyone else notice that the new Diehard said that there would be a Mortal Kombat for the Jag? Also, those AvP intro screens look great. 24bit intro on a cart, amazing. They said the in game graphics use over 32,000 colors, that 15 bit isn't it? They said Legons of the Undead uses a better version of the AvP engine . Ken ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 161 Sun Apr 24, 1994 D.BROWN38 [Duncan Brown] at 23:02 EDT DMJ: >The problem with these techniques (opto-mechanical encoder) is that you must >decode the pattern of on-off signals. If you do not decode them fast enough >(i.e. if you miss one of the changes) the paddle would appear to move >What you _really_ want is a free-spinning paddle controller with a good A/D >converter. Then the CPU can just read the A/D converter, which has done all >the work of figuring out where the paddle is. No messy serial communication; >it's free-spinning so there are no motion restrictions; and it's cheap and >easy to make. > >Just an opinion, of course. I'll toss some more facts into the discussion to show it's not so clear-cut: -- It may be a pain to sample a pair of square wave inputs in software, but that doesn't make it *slower* than an A/D converter. Most A/D converters are quite slow. So, sure, the software part is easy (read a value from a location) but it's still a much slower path. -- A potentiometer and an encoder wheel are two entirely different concepts. (Is there even any such thing as a free-spinning pot? How do you have a zero- gap resistive coating or wire winding that transitions from 0 to maximum resistance at the "wraparound" point?) A pot gives an *absolute* position. An encoder wheel gives a *vector* (speed and direction). There is no "wraparound" condition to handle on an encoder wheel, so it avoids all of those types of problems. On the other hand, there is no way to correlate knob position with input value in an encoder wheel setup; all you know is "what's the wheel doing right this instant?". Each lends itself to different situations. -- The only time (on arcade games) that I've ever seen a fast encoder wheel motion get mistakenly read as motion in the opposite direction (as you described a mouse doing) was when something was *broken*; a merginal optocoupler, a bad capacitor, something like that. It had nothing to do with software sampling rate. I don't know if this is true for your mouse, or whether PC mice really aren't sampled correctly. Duncan ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 162 Mon Apr 25, 1994 J.BATTEY1 [J. L. Battey] at 00:26 EDT E.MICHARD, >I am merely trying to get one thing that has been sincerely lacking, >a little HONESTY about game releases. If ALL of the people who are in a poition to know about the progress in software developement answered your question of "When?" by saying "As soon as possible." or "We don't know the exact day.", that would be honest. But I somehow don't think it would make you or others like you any happier. Instead they say things like "We are targeting for late May" or " It should be out in early 3rd quarter '94." and people like you read it as gospel. Go back over what has been said _officilly_ and look carefully at how the statements were qualified. Did you budget 6-8 months ahead to buy specific cartridges on their day of release? Did you buy your Jag as an investment that you are now worried it might be depreciating (It isn't. Only the discounters are selling Jags at MSRP here in Dallas, others are selling it _above_ list.)? Why all the angst? I agree with George Carlin, if airline schedule were honest, they would read "arriving Thursday, probably in the morning" or something like that. My advice to you is, do not ever have your house remodelled. The movie "The Money Pit" was NOT a comedy! Damien, As you well know, there's just no pleasing some folks. Would it work to build a laser gyro into the knob of a paddle controller? I've seen some at the First Saturday flea market that would be about the right size. K.DRAKE, >...the better known it is, the more people expect of it... About 3 months before WordPerfect ST came out, one of the programmers working on it told me that part of the delay was caused by the fact that Atari users were _more_demanding_ than the users on any other platform. John L. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 163 Mon Apr 25, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 01:02 EDT dmj - Here, here. Well spoke, well said! ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 164 Mon Apr 25, 1994 STEVE-J [EeEckyThump!] at 04:58 EDT C.SMITH89 - What I was really referring to was that a number of times, Bob Brodie stated that Atari expected 3rd party developers to start releasing titles in March/April, and then the ONLY 3rd party title Atari ever mentions is Microprose's GUNSHIP 2000 -- it just SOUNDS like Atari hasn't a clue from its 3rd party developers when titles will be showing up. E.HALLIWELL - I was referring to the (hopefully, soon-to-come) paddle controller, since it uses the A and C fire buttons to move up and down during the warp levels. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 165 Mon Apr 25, 1994 C.UNDERWOOD1 [Carson] at 09:09 EDT > but the law of averages would probably indicate that even THEY are > overdue to make a mistake and actually succeed at marketing > SOMETHING! Too bad it wasn't a computer. :( Carson ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 166 Mon Apr 25, 1994 JULI.WADE [Juli @ Atari] at 13:30 EDT TONY - By "development", I mean test and re-work. I sort of lumped them together on this one...... =-) THUNDERBIRD - Yup, that's how we feel, too. There's no point in giving you a game for the sake of giving you a *title*. The extra time is being well spent. And, no, I won't be at SCES - darn it!! CHAZZ - =-) <---(right back atcha!!) FAIRWEATHER - <> Glad you're so trusting...! I did say that was the *soonest* it would be finished. D VANTREASE - Yes, it would be nice if the dealers had more up-to-date delivery estimates. (Why aren't they HERE listening??) :-) ICDINC - Tom, I'll check into your AvP questions....stay tuned. E MICHARD - The 3rd party developers didn't get their systems any sooner than you did. The estimate for any game title is 9-12 months. Conversions may happen sooner. (Just thought you should know; not trying to feed you any more crap...) SHELDON - <> Aren't you a dealer? (Or am I mistaken?) Who is your contact at Atari? ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 167 Mon Apr 25, 1994 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 18:42 EDT C.UNDERWOOD1 [Carson]: > > but the law of averages would probably indicate that even THEY are > > overdue to make a mistake and actually succeed at marketing > > SOMETHING! > >Too bad it wasn't a computer. :( "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one." - Spock of Vulcan ______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 168 Mon Apr 25, 1994 S.WINICK at 19:22 EDT Julie @ Atari, >> Aren't you a dealer? (Or am I mistaken?) Who is your >> contact at Atari? Well...... I thought I was. ;-) I'll answer more thoroughly in E-mail later. Sheldon (Computer STudio - Asheville, NC) ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 169 Mon Apr 25, 1994 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 22:24 EDT I'm pleased to report that ADRAYS, a major Southern California discount electronics chain is now selling Jaguars. I spotted four in boxes and one displaying Cybermorph at Adrays Ventura. Their price was $239, but since Adrays has frequent storewide sales it ought to be fairly easy to get it for a few bucks less by watching the newspapers. The bad news is that they had NO carts for sale. Somebody get them a supply of TEMPEST 2K's in a hurry! Which brings me to another subject... I'm sorry but fun as Cybermorph may be to play, it is NOT an attention grabber. Right next to the Jaguar display was some stupid Super Nintendo hockey demo that looked MUCH more impressive! The truth is that the Cybermorph demo is a big yawn. In fact even the Tempest 2K demo isn't what it should be. Why can't Atari put together a special STORE DEMO CART full of eyepopping FX that ONLY A JAG can produce??? Fill the cart with "clips" from Alien v Predator, Club Drive, Kasumi Ninja, Tiny Toons and all your other games in progress, and watch the Jags FLY out of the stores! ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 170 Mon Apr 25, 1994 C.SMITH89 [CLINT/A.P.E.] at 22:45 EDT I recieved a Summer CES registration brochure today(I've already sent away for my badge). I found the following items to be kind of neat... "Over 400 exhibits showcasing Philips, Thomson, Recoton, Nintendo, Atari, 3DO, IBM, and other leading companies." "All the electronic gaming platforms will be in one place covering over 150,000 square feet! More than 100 companies will be represented, including 3DO, Philips, Nintendo, and Atari to name just a few." ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 171 Mon Apr 25, 1994 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 23:15 EDT By the way, I supplied Adrays Ventura with a few Jaguar pertinent pages from the latest AEO including the developers list, which I just happened to have in my car. "Are you an Atari Rep?" the salesman asked me. "No, but I should be," I replied. Adrays is a very significant step in the right direction for Atari. But there is still quite a ways to go before Atari can claim to have competitive coverage in Southern California: 1. CIRCUIT CITY Now that Jags are in The Good Guys and Adrays, Circuit City is the only remaining major So. Cal. electronics discounter without Jags. Unfortunately Circuit City is also the BIGGEST of the three. 2. WHEREHOUSE RECORDS Getting into The Wherehouse is probably even MORE important than getting into Circuit City. Nowadays Segas and Nintendos take up almost as much display space as records and videos do in The Wherehouse. Unlike electronics stores and toy stores, many people visit their local Wherehouses several times a week to pick out and return videos. While they're there waiting in line, consumers can't help but notice all the video consoles and games on display. Atari is MISSING OUT on all that valuable advertising. At The Wherehouse in Santa Barbara they have a Sega CD kiosk demoing that game where aliens invade Texas right next to the return line. Atari can't afford to miss out on that kind of advertising. They need to get into The Wherehouse NOW! 3. BLOCKBUSTER VIDEO I know that Atari is in Blockbusters in Northern California, but the Blockbusters in Santa Barbara and Ventura have no knowledge of what their No. Cal. brethren are doing. 4. TOYS R US Similarly, although SOME Toys R Us stores already have Jags, many of the So. Cal. stores outside L.A. still don't. If Atari can penetrate these 4 major outlets I think all the other significant stores will fall in behind. And if Atari can provide those stores with an eyepopping DEMO CART they'll have to hire more staff just to count all the money that comes rolling in! ...I really should be an Atari rep! ;-) ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 172 Tue Apr 26, 1994 E.MICHARD at 00:08 EDT Thunderbird - I said nothing against the programmers or the reasons for delays. I know that there will be delays and expect them. My point was that they should try to take this into account in their estimates before they tell us anything. I think its a good idea that some titles have no release dates set. That's how they should do them all. Then that way they won't be misleading anyone. They won't be giving us any garbage about how 'this title is just about done...you'll see it next month." I did notice how in the last RTC no real info was given. I took it to mean that they basically had no idea when anything would be done, and were finally realizing it. I applaud them for resisting the urge this time. Too bad they weren't that realistic in their earlier statements. ------------ Category 26, Topic 2 Message 173 Tue Apr 26, 1994 E.MICHARD at 00:37 EDT Juli @ Atari - Ok, if 9-12 months is how long it takes, then how could a certain person have honestly said, on several occasions, '3rd party releases in March 94'? That's my only complaint, and is the only 'crap' which was being referred to earlier. If that's how long it takes, fine. But somebody should let the PR people know. ------------