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The system will prompt you for your information. ========================================================================== ************ Topic 19 Wed Jun 30, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 15:20 EDT Sub: Geneva - Multitasking Environment The following topic will cover messages and discussions regarding GENEVA, the Multitasking Application Environment from Gribnif Software. 216 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 1 Wed Jun 30, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 15:22 EDT We've just uploaded the press releases to our newest software product for the Atari: GENEVA. In short, Geneva is a Multitasking Application Environment for the Atari ST, STE, TT/030, and Falcon. The press releases are: GEDESC.TXT - A brief description of GENEVA and a brief company overview. File# 29183 GENEVA.TXT - The main GENEVA news release, everything you want to know! File# 29182 GEBETA.TXT - Information on how to become a GENEVA beta tester. Gribnif Software ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 2 Sun Nov 28, 1993 JRH [Roger] at 18:37 EST Dan, One of the odd things I have noticed from time to time when using Geneva is that if I am running applications like EdHak or That's Write 3 and switch between them and Aladdin (as a single tasking application) a few times I lose the ability for keys to repeat when held down. It takes multiple key presses to get multiple characters. Sometimes the loss of key repeat happens in Aladdin, sometimes in Edhak, etc. It was happening just now while preparing this message. Then I did some more switching between Aladdin and TW3, as well as ran EdHak, and now all of a sudden I can get repeating keys in all of the applications. I don't get it. It is more of a nuisance than anything else. It is not a real burden, but does suggest some odd interaction that does not seem to be consistent, as it does not always happen. Regards, Roger ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 3 Sun Nov 28, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 21:01 EST Roger, I've seen that sort of thing in beta testing (not with the current beta version, which is about to be released) ... but only with applications that were not strictly following GEM conventions. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 4 Mon Nov 29, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 02:08 EST Roger, I have found sometimes when switching from TW3 to run Aladdin from NeoDesk that I can't unless I first terminate TW3. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 5 Mon Nov 29, 1993 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 10:04 EST Glad to hear its working right. I would love to have one of those in my Mega. I have a Moniterm board and a T-25 in my Mega. Would the extra ram board fit with all that stuff? What would the cost of the upgrade be with 12 megs. What are the ram chips going for now and how many would you need? What is the cost of upgrading to Tos 2.6 (thats what you need right). I'm glad it's working..... Steve ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 6 Mon Nov 29, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 17:25 EST Everyone, I have found the problem with using Works and GDOS together under Geneva. It will be fixed for 003. (I am just adding a couple more of the TOS 4.1 features, and it will be in beta test soon, so not too much longer.) I have not yet tried Page Assistant yet, simply because I can't find it in the libraries! I've tried all the keywords I can think of, but no go. I even sat through an entire scan using the topic "Pagestream". Anybody know what the file number is? JRH, That's Write does weird things to the keyboard repeat delay, and this can affect other programs. Essentially, because of the way putting an application to slepp works, That's Write is never "told" it is no longer the topmost application, so it never changes things back to the way they should be for other applications. There's really no way around this other than to have another app's window on top and then put That's Write to sleep (e.g.: open the Task Manager and use it to Sleep TW3.) Alan, I haven't hit any other programs that break out of redirected input like the C shell you mention. In fact, this should not make any difference because the app would be intercepting the terminate vector and would therefore prevent anything from happening later on. Hm. I'll have to look at the code and make sure that it does not somehow assume "OK the user hit Ctrl- C, that must mean I'm out of screen i/o now." But I don't think it does. Do you have any way of finding out what call Lattice is making when the reentrant message comes up? It doesn't really redraw one character at a time, unless a "raw" i/o method is being used, or the app is looking for input after every character. (i.e.: Fwrite() a char, Cconis() to check state, Fwrite a char, etc.) I just realized that this is not entirely necessary. I can have Geneva TOS not flush its buffer if all the user program is doing is checking state (it has to flush if asking for keyboard input). When you manually scroll the window, it is not being redrawn as efficiently in Geneva rel 002 as it should be. For 003 it is blitted properly. No, I hadn't checked the con_xxx vectors. I'll intercept those, too. I'll also add an option for the working directory. This won't be too useful, though, because you'll have to set it before the TOS app is run. It will be saved in the CNF file, though. John, There's not a message sent, but I suppose one could be added. Isn't it more valuable, though, for the user to know the total time the app is open, whether it's being used or not? If that is the case, all you have to do is wait for the CH_EXIT message that HotWire gets when the app quits. As for Warp 9 knowing what process is active, this is possible by looking at the Gnva cookie. This would allow you to turn a feature on or off based on the name of the app. Bruce, Thanks for the suggestions. Ken, The only way we are going to do NeoDesk 4 is with a whole new manual; no upgrade manuals this time. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 7 Mon Nov 29, 1993 K.SPRINGER1 [FROZEN NORTH] at 21:45 EST Dan, Assuming we are talking the same program, Page Assistant is a commercial program to provide online help for Pagestream users. It is from: Spar Systems 381 Autumn Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11208 718-235-3169 Oh, joy!! A new manual for ND4. I love it!!! Ken S. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 8 Tue Nov 30, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 00:40 EST Dan, Thanks for the information on dealing with the peculiarities of That's Write. Is it due to Geneva that when I press the right mouse button in a document window in TW3 I print a small asterisk on the screen instead of getting the help menu? Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 9 Tue Nov 30, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 01:21 EST Dan, Page Assistant is a commercial PRG That offers help menus for the various functions of PageStream. It is by Spar Systems. (381 Autumn Ave. Brooklyn, N.Y. 11208 (718) 235-3169 They also produce a similar PRG for Calamus, as well as templates for use with either APP. I don't think they are reachable via GEnie. If you can give them a call, they will probably be of assistance. If not, and we can find a 'legal' way to do it, I will gladly 'loan' you the disk for testing purposes. BTW - I am glad to hear NeoD 4 will get a whole new manual... my NeoD 3 manual is pretty dog-eared these days! Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 10 Tue Nov 30, 1993 DMJ [dmj] at 19:20 EST Dan, Are you going to have Al write the NeoDesk 4 manual? He did a great job on the Geneva manual... -dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 11 Tue Nov 30, 1993 R.PLAGGENBUR [Ralph / WA] at 22:27 EST Dan, Page Assistant is a commercial program from Spar Systems 381 Autumn Ave Brooklyn, NY 11208 718-235-3169 Ralph ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 12 Wed Dec 01, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 23:16 EST Damien, Harump! Dan and Rick did an excellent job with the Neo 3 manual. It lacked an index, but each time I return to it I usually find that what I wanted to know was, indeed, in there. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 14 Thu Dec 02, 1993 DMJ [dmj] at 20:12 EST Al, I wasn't saying the NeoDesk 3 manual was in any way inadequate. Far from it-- aside from its lack of an index, it is an excellent manual. Its table of contents is more complete than most manuals, which helps make up for the lack of the index. Whoever writes the NeoDesk 4 manual, I'm sure they will do a great job. -dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 15 Fri Dec 03, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 14:39 EST Everyone, Thanks for the info about Page Assistant. I'll give them a call. dmj, We're not sure yet. It's the last thing on my mind at the moment. Bill, Well, I just tried the right mouse button in TW3 with rel 003, and it does indeed give the popup menu for help, bookmarks, etc. So, it looks like I've already fixed this without knowing it . Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 16 Sat Dec 04, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 01:59 EST Dan- Are you making any progress towards solving the Screenblaster/Geneva "inconvenience"? (I won't call it incompatibility since it IS possible to run the two together. But if you autorun Geneva you are limited to 2 colors in Screenblaster.) ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 17 Tue Dec 07, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 12:52 EST David, We just got a Screenblaster from Compo USA (thanks Robert!) so now I can test things. I'll try to find a solution. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 18 Tue Dec 07, 1993 D.SMITH200 [Dave] at 22:06 EST ******* WARNING! Long Post!******* I bought Geneva at the TOADfest (Registration is in the mail) and am having the same problems with the disappearing mouse as others are. This occurs in Pheonix (Positioning menu) and in Studio Photo. The problem in Studio Photo is bizzare. The mouse disappears on launch, although if you left-click drag, you get a rubber band box. By estimating the position you can access Task Manager and get back into Neodesk. then the mouse reappears and can be used upon reentering Studio. HOWEVER.... Studio accesses it's brush palette with a right click. This function remains disabled under Geneva. I've tried most of the flag settings... No help. Studio ain't much without brushes. You *can* access them with the F-Keys, but you can't configure them. Also: I am using the NOVA card (VME 16M) in 800x600x256. Geneva works fine with it, but one of the NOVA's auto folder utilities (Reswitch) Ceases to function. Reswitch allows one to switch resolutions for "tagged" programs on the fly. These are programs which generally don't like non-standard (non-TT) resolutions. The absence of this function limits severely my day to day use of Geneva. And one other... Prism Paint uses a key sequence on loading (holding the Alternate key) to load it's buffers into TT ram. Under Geneva when I do this, Geneva tries to "read" Prism Paint like a text file (???) scrolling to screen and ending with a lockup. Believe it or not I *really* do like what Geneva can do. Just want to know if there are any solutions to these "events". Thanks, Dave Smith ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 19 Wed Dec 08, 1993 T.FITZPATRI8 [Tom] at 03:00 EST > And one other... Prism Paint uses a key sequence on loading (holding > the Alternate key) to load it's buffers into TT ram. Under Geneva > when I do this, Geneva tries to "read" Prism Paint like a text file > (???) scrolling to screen and ending with a lockup. Dave, That's a NeoDesk feature. I'd expect you could work around it by running Prism Paint from the Geneva Task Manager or the Geneva Manager menus instead of double clicking on the NeoDesk windows. (Say, NeoDesk has been using that feature for years. Don't the Prism Paint programmers know better than to use conflicting keys?!) ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 20 Wed Dec 08, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:13 EST Dave, Couple of suggestions. 1. Try running these apps with mtasking switched off to see if their behavior changes. 2. Try playing with the order of files in the auto folder. The Studio Photo demo (I don't have the full app) works exceptionally well here, but this is on a TT. Dan mentioned that others have reported some problems, and I don't know if they were running Falcons or what. As Tom says, NeoDesk uses the Alt-click combo to display any file that is not ordinarily recognized as a displayable file, even if it is an applicaton. The way Prism Paint uses that combination is a real oddity. Is there no way to get it to do it the normal way, by use of a TT RAM flag? (You might also try setting up the flags for PPaint to ignore the Alt key.) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 21 Wed Dec 08, 1993 T.HENRY12 [Tom Jr.] at 18:52 EST Dave, I have the same problem with Geneva and Studio Photo, even when set as single- tasking. Works fine with just NeoDesk. Just to let you know you're not alone. Tom ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 22 Wed Dec 08, 1993 D.SMITH200 [Dave] at 20:10 EST Al, Tom, Tom Jr., Re: Studio Photo... I'll try reshuffling the auto folder... However, The Nova card and Superboot demand a certain ordering as well. I'm surpised the demo works, and the app doesn't. :( I've tried the Mtask flags off. As far as Prism goes, I'll probably just drop out of Neodesk when I need it. I'm using a TT as well. 2 Megs ST/ 8 Megs Fastram. Thanks for the help! Dave ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 23 Fri Dec 10, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 01:40 EST I'd prefer that the item selector _NOT_ lock me out of other apps. As before... I'd like to see multidialog functionality added to Geneva itself (as a user configurable option of course). --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 24 Fri Dec 10, 1993 MIKE-ALLEN [NM~SysOp] at 05:31 EST Dan, Just as a curiosity, how does GENEVA_VER as defined in XWIND.H and also in the G_COOKIE structure relate to the version of Geneva? My version is 002, but GENEVA_VER is 0x0100. As I said, just curious. Mike ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 25 Fri Dec 10, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 07:58 EST Mike, the 002 is the release number of the version you have. --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 26 Fri Dec 10, 1993 DMJ [dmj] at 19:34 EST Mike, I would imagine the GENEVA_VER would only change when it indicates some difference in the structures or function calls available in Geneva. If the program doesn't need to know the difference, why worry about it? -dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 27 Sat Dec 11, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 23:07 EST I agree that it would be a good idea to have MultiDialog's features in Geneva itself. I feel that is where they belong. One problem with MD is that it cannot be set to turn itself off automatically for programs that require it, and among others I have, MultiDesk and Calendar 6.3a _do_ require it not be on at all in any configuration. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 28 Sun Dec 12, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:57 EST Bill, Yes, MultiDialog can turn itself off (practically speaking) by setting everything off for the app and saving that config, with the app name in the list. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 29 Sun Dec 12, 1993 T.MAGEE1 [Todd] at 11:43 EST Is there a way to get Geneva to use the Little Green File selector? I like LGS/Maxifile3, and would prefer to use it. Todd ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 30 Sun Dec 12, 1993 MUSE [Tomas] at 15:30 EST Todd, The Little Green Selector can be used with Geneva. The Geneva Manager and the Task Manager will always call Geneva's own file selector, but anything else that calls up the selector will bring up LGFS and then MaxiFile. Sounds like you'd like the option to replace the Geneva file selector altogether? That would be up to Dan. For now you can give MaxiFile a hotkey (I use right shift NK8 although it doesn't matter which shift key you use) with the Task Manager. If you have used PopIt!, you can assign the same hotkeys you've used to call accessories all along. If you have something like CALL_UIS, you can use it to bring up LGFS the same way. How's that for cooperation between competing products? ===Tomas=== ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 31 Sun Dec 12, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 20:16 EST I bought Geneva today. I don't know when I will have time to install it but as soon as I do I will let everyone know what I think. I wanted to post right away just to say that I'm really impressed with the packaging. I didnt' think I would ever again see such a professional presentation and manual for an application (or utility) on the Atari platform . Then again, it is Gribnif. John B. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 32 Mon Dec 13, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 01:34 EST Dan, Bob Hunt's number (e-bob) at Emagic is 415-738-1633. I'll give Bob a follow up call to make sure he knows their paying customers want Logic to work under Geneva _correctly_ . --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 33 Mon Dec 13, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 02:26 EST Al, Sorry, not my copy of MultiDialog. It will turn everything off but the screen position of the dialogue. And that's not good enough for Calendar. It must have everything off, which can only be achieved by turning off MultiDialog, which cannot be done by saving it. However, I now think that MultiDesk works okay with the default setting. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 34 Mon Dec 13, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 07:52 EST Bill, you have to click NEW then type in the name of the PRG in the spot marked "-DEFAULT-" then SAVE the configuration. That is how to set up MultiDialog. --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 35 Tue Dec 14, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 00:18 EST Kevin, I think you're right, except that in my copy "Add" seems to do what NEW does on yours. I am beginning to think that MultiDialog behaves inconsistently under Geneva. I can now get Cal 6.3a to work with MD turned on and the dialogue box set to CENTRE. In fact, even with MD turned off, Cal now draws an unnecessary box to the left of its own position, which it doesn't in the new setting. My apologies to Al and others if I have raised unnecessary difficulties, but this is not the easiest program to set up. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 36 Tue Dec 14, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 01:42 EST Umm... it may be ADD rather than NEW. I was just talking from memory rather than looking at the program as I posted. --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 37 Tue Dec 14, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 16:00 EST Everyone, I may add the functionality of MultiDialog in a future version, but I am a bit concerned about the number of options that have to be set for every misbehaving application. Things may get mighty confusing for the average user. Mike A., The cookie version is supposed to be 0x101 for Geneva 002, but due to a typo it was not changed. Rel 003 has 0x102. DMJ, Actually, the SET_VER will only change when the size/contents of SETTINGS does, but the cookie version should always change. Dave & Tom, I've changed things for the next version of Geneva, and I suspect that Studio Photo and Phoenix will now work correctly. Please let me know if they do not once you have gotten the new version (it should be out in the next week or so.) I don't think there is much I can do about Reswitch. It apparently relies upon a sequnce of events that requires Atari's AES. This will require modifications on the part of the programmers who wrote the software. Another way around the Alt problem is to quickly hold the Alt key *after* double-clicking on the icon. If you time it right, it gets pretty intuitive after a while. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 38 Tue Dec 14, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 18:15 EST Dan, But think of all those nifty NEW programs which will be made compliant if the MultiDialog functionality is added. You'll be 'enshrined into the Atari Hall of Fame' for adding that. Also, it would be cool if the FileSelector would work like that too. :) --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 39 Tue Dec 14, 1993 D.SMITH200 [Dave] at 20:24 EST Dan, Thanks for the fast response. I'll Email you regarding the authors of Reswitch. Maybe things can be worked out. -- Dave P.S. Double click/Alternate brings up the dialog for Prism (for the load buffers for TT ram) BUT.... The mouse disappears! Ah well. Happy Holidays --- Dave ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 40 Tue Dec 14, 1993 C.KROWCHUK1 [CHRIS] at 23:58 EST Dan, Warning,take your hat off before reading this! Kevin, But Dan is in the Atari Hall of Fame, or maybe it would be more appropriate to say He Is the Atari Hall of Fame! Chris :> ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 41 Wed Dec 15, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:27 EST Todd, Sure, just put the LGS in your auto folder as you normally would. John B., Did yours come in a Vaseline box, too? Glad you liked the manual. Bill, MDialog is a bear to set up with some apps, true. And if you have Geneva telling the app to puts its dialogs in one place, W9 telling it to put them in another, and MD doing something else, things can get really messed up. Make sure the others are not competing with MD. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 42 Wed Dec 15, 1993 MIKE-ALLEN [NM~SysOp] at 03:47 EST Dan, Thanks for the info about the cookie. Appreciate it. BTW, using the JARxxx cookie routines is nice! Mike Allen ST HelpDesk~Sysop Written: 12:53 AM Mountain Time Wednesday, December 15, 1993 ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 43 Wed Dec 15, 1993 M.POCHE [Mick] at 23:38 EST Just figured I'd let you folks who are having problems with Geneva and Phoenix know that the latest beta version of Phoenix seems to work great under Geneva so far. Don't even ask me about when it will be available though, as I have no idea. Bug John Stanford about it over in his topic. :) As a new Geneva owner, I just want to say how impressed I am with this software!! Having owned SliccTop and MultiGEM, and trying out MultiTOS for a bit, I can now say that I've finally found a multitasking system that _really_ works, and works great! - Mick ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 44 Wed Dec 15, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 23:43 EST I'm sorry to say I'm still struggling with MultiDialog, in spite of the help on line from Al and others. If anyone has actually succeeded in saving a setting for a program that has MultiDialog set to off, I would very much like to know how it is done. I have succeeded quite a while ago in saving settings for several different programs that do not work too well with the default setting, but Cal 6.3a absolutely requires MD to be off, and even in that case it draws an unwanted box if MD has been run. If I try to save that setting, it does so, but it also saves every other program as off. As far as I can see, On and Off are global functions, which cannot be saved with individual program settings. If I am wrong, and I hope I am, please someone who knows explain in detail what to do about it. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 45 Thu Dec 16, 1993 T.GIRSCH [TJ @ S-Mart] at 00:25 EST All - Does anyone have good NeoDesk Icons for Geneva? - T.J. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 46 Thu Dec 16, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 00:49 EST Bill - It has been my experience too, that the on/off function of Multidialog seems to be global. Saving a setting with it set to off, turns it off. Period. I have had good luck using Form_do into those prg's that have shown some problems with other settings. I do not use the 'Cal' prg so can't speak to it specifically. Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 47 Thu Dec 16, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:43 EST Bill, I'll work at this MD problem and get back to you in a few days. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 48 Sat Dec 18, 1993 B.KANTOR [Bruce] at 08:37 EST Dan, I'm have several problems with Geneva on my Falcon 030 and I was wondering if you could confirm if they are known bugs/problems. 1. 256 color VGA mode and STalker - cannot interrupt STalker (i.e use the mouse) when capture mode is on or when receiving a text file. Works fine in 16 color VGA mode. 2. After working for several hours with several programs, I am no longer able to load new programs. They all exit immediately with a status of #-1. 3. Several programs have trouble in 256 color VGA mode with Warp9 screen acceleration and Geneva. If either Warp9 acc. or Geneva are inactive, everything is okay. Some of the programs are Aladdin, GemView, Atari Works, and SuperBase Form Editor. The symptoms are that the windows are not cleared properly and any text written to the windows overwrites what's already there. Normally, what was there was erased. 4. Lattice 5.60 - the submenus in LC5.PRG are not usable. I would appreciate any comments that you could make regarding the above problems. Thanks, Bruce ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 49 Sat Dec 18, 1993 T.FITZPATRI8 [Tom] at 14:49 EST Bruce, >2. After working for several hours with several programs, I am no >longer able to load new programs. They all exist immediately with a >status of #-1. Sounds like memory fragmentation to me. Check out section 4.1.8 of the manual for details and a couple of tips on avoiding the problem. SHOWMEM4 (in the library here) is a nice little program to run the next time you get the error--it'll show how much free memory you have, and how big the chunks are. Or, if you're running NeoDesk, the About Neodesk screen tells the size of the largest chunk of free memory. All, Anybody in the mood to do some programming? Wouldn't it be nice to have a DA which worked in a background window, one that would track memory use and fragmentation the same way hard disk performance programs track hard drive fragmentation? Tom ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 50 Sat Dec 18, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 22:08 EST Matt and Al, Thanks. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 51 Sat Dec 18, 1993 DMJ [dmj] at 22:53 EST Tom, Wonderful idea... that sure would be useful. -dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 52 Sun Dec 19, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 03:00 EST Tom, I'll second dmjs' "wonderful idea..." Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 53 Sun Dec 19, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 14:51 EST Bruce, Are you using special flag settings for any of the apps that are causing (or showing) problems? Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 54 Sun Dec 19, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 15:58 EST Tom, A DA like that would be wonderful. Windows (actually, DOS 6.x) comes with one, and there are others for the Win and OS/2 environment. One that worked on the Atari would be excellent. GEM-Load, or whatever it is called, is the only one I've seen that does even part of what you describe. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 55 Sun Dec 19, 1993 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 16:40 EST Tom, The problem with creating a utility which tracks memory fragmentation is that there is no legal way to get any information about memory other than the size of the largest available block. ShowMem4 uses a shady technique. John ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 56 Sun Dec 19, 1993 DMJ [dmj] at 18:05 EST John, - ...there is no legal way to get any information about memory - other than the size of the largest available block. Now THAT sounds like a challenge. I'm rather fond of challenges... -dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 57 Sun Dec 19, 1993 GENIELAMP.ST [John G] at 22:44 EST Memory fragmentation? How about the system memory CPX? Can't I tell how fragmented the memory is by noting the number of entries in the free memory window? John ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 58 Mon Dec 20, 1993 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 03:32 EST DMJ, Well yes, there are ways that you could do it, but it wouldn't be practical. You could do Malloc(-1) and allocate each block that's available and then free them up again. This would tell you the size and location of each block. But this wouldn't be practical for a program which would continuously update the results in a window. John ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 59 Mon Dec 20, 1993 F-D-PERCIVAL [Fred P.] at 07:06 EST I'm coming into this late, since I recently installed Geneva. So forgive me if these are old subjects... Enviroment is a MSTE4, TOS 2.05 The first problem is with Atari Works. If I import an ASCII file into the Works word processor, then hit Ctl-A (choose all) then Ctl-M (strip CRs), I get 3 bombs. Flagging Works as single-tasking had no effect; stripping out all TSRs and ACCs had no effect. I use this procedure A LOT with Works, and thus Geneva is causing a major problem for me. The second is with STeno and STalker. Under Geneva, when I use STeno as the STalker capture buffer, I have a problem after an online session with STalker. When I review the text in STeno and use the mouse to define blocks, the text no longer scrolls through the window line by line, but jumps by about a window height. This makes grabbing a block very difficult. This only seems to happen after I use STeno... Any solution for these two complaints? I hope so, because they outweigh Geneva's benefits for me! ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 60 Mon Dec 20, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 13:00 EST Fred, I just tried the sequnce of things you mentioned in Works, and it worked fine. Of course, this is with 003, so maybe this has something to do with it. You aren't, perhaps, holding the Alternate key as you select a blcok in STeno or STalker, are you? This would cause either program to jump one screen at a time as you select a block. Tom, I'm one step ahead of you on the memory fragmentation DA: I plan to build this into the NeoDesk 4. John E., It works by locking the screen so that other programs won't get access, and then repeatedly using Malloc() to get blocks of memory, counting as it goes. It then frees them all and unlocks the screen. This is the way the About NeoDesk dialog in 3.04/3.04 does it right now. It's not very friendly to pre- emptive multitasking though. I haven't added the timer event based updates yet, but I don't think that will slow things down too too much. Mike, I'm glad you like the JARxxx routines. That's what they're there for. Feel free to distribute JARxxx with any of your own code, as long as you observe the stipulations in the JARXXX.TXT file. Bruce, 1. We can't duplicate this, but will keep trying. 2. I've found the reason for this, and it's fixed in rel 003. 3. I'll talk to John E. about this. 4. This should be fixed for 003, but I don't have Lattice to test with. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 61 Mon Dec 20, 1993 DMJ [dmj] at 19:38 EST John, Sounds like a stiffer challenge. -dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 62 Mon Dec 20, 1993 T.FITZPATRI8 [Tom] at 22:17 EST RE: Memory Fragmentation Accessory I should've known Dan already had a fix in mind. Sounds messy, though, shutting down multitasking and reserving all free memory. Would it be speedier to use that technique once, when the accessory was initialized, then simply eavesdrop on any system call which would take or release memory? Is there a legal way to do that? John G., System memory CPX? I don't recall that being in either CPX archive here. Is that a third party effort, or was that part of the Falcon/Multitos package? Tom ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 63 Mon Dec 20, 1993 DMJ [dmj] at 23:13 EST Tom, Eavesdropping on any system call (actually, there are four) that deals with memory allocation would certainly be one way of doing it. Watching system calls does entail a few problems of its own, though. I'm *really* starting to like the challenge aspect of this problem. -dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 64 Tue Dec 21, 1993 R.THUROW [Rich] at 02:57 EST There is Informer.ACC that I dl'd and it provides contant memory updates in the top menu bar. Really works well. However, it crashes upon loading sometimes under g. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 65 Tue Dec 21, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:25 EST Fred, I've seen the Works problem, but not with the version of G that is about to be released. (I also don't recall seeing it in the version now in the hands of users, either.) The STalker and STeno problems don't seem right. Try disabling fast-load flags for them, or setting the fast-load and Clear Memory flag (in G) to on to see if that helps. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 66 Tue Dec 21, 1993 F-D-PERCIVAL [Fred P.] at 05:28 EST Dan, So when can I get this new version of Geneva, which will hopefully solve my works problem? Al, I'll try clearing memory for Steno and Stalker. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 67 Wed Dec 22, 1993 F-D-PERCIVAL [Fred P.] at 07:07 EST Al, About accessing the Geneva file selector... Say I'm in a program running under Geneva and NeoDesk I suddenly decide I want to copy a file from one drive partition to another, or do some other file mechanics without using the program to call the file selector. What's the very fastest way to do this? Any hotkeys or other customizations included! ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 68 Wed Dec 22, 1993 R.SNYDER6 [Roger S.] at 10:01 EST Fred, I'd hotkey (or mouse) into MaxiFile. Or under Geneva I could switch to NeoDesk, and if the program I was in was multitasking it would continue. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 69 Wed Dec 22, 1993 R.SNYDER6 [Roger S.] at 19:03 EST Does anyone know if LoadAlad makes Aladdin work better under Geneva, i.e. have Aladdin loaded & run other term programs or run in the background? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 70 Wed Dec 22, 1993 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 20:24 EST Tom, The display Dan's talking about won't "fix" memory fragmentation, it will just display it. There's no way to fix memory fragmentation with TOS. That's because memory blocks belong to the applications which allocated them and cannot be removed or moved (although I suppose it might be possible to juggle memory with the MMU on 030 machines if you really wanted to make a mess of things ). Yes, a TSR could watch all memory calls and keep an updated copy of all memory allocation. But this would be the same complexity (even a little more) than the routines which handle it in GEMDOS already. It's also possible that the OS might call some of these routines directly and the TSR would miss those. John ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 71 Wed Dec 22, 1993 D.SMITH200 [Dave] at 21:59 EST Dan, Curious thing... I noticed on my TT (2/8), When I'm in the Geneva environment w/o Neodesk, I have 1238090 bytes ST ram and 7997998 bytes TT ram available, for a total of 9236088 bytes free ram. When I quit Geneva and return to the TOS 3.06 desktop I show 1563098 ST ram, 7440212 TT ram for a total of 9003310... ??? The accessories loaded at boot are the Control Panel (CPX), Nova Color acc, and JML_Snap (screen capture). These are present in both configurations. Just wondering *how* I can be getting more free ram from a software multitasking shell than from the ROMed desktop... Could the Deskicon.rsc make that much difference? Think you've done a marvelous job and am looking forward to 003 Dave ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 72 Wed Dec 22, 1993 B.KANTOR [Bruce] at 23:03 EST Al, >Are you using special flag settings for any of the apps that are causing (or >showing) problems? I am using all the Geneva defaults. I tried various settings like clearing memory but to no avail. Regards, Bruce ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 73 Wed Dec 22, 1993 T.FITZPATRI8 [Tom] at 23:22 EST John, You're not making this easy, are 'ya?! (BTW, I recognize the difficulty in "defragmenting" RAM sans MMU. I was referring to NeoDesk 4's "fix" to the problem of _recognizing_ fragmentation.) At any rate, all those twelve step programs say the first step is recognizing there's a problem. :) That's the role the abovementioned DA would serve, to alert the casual user to causes of memory fragmentation problems and provide a handy guide for knowing when a cold-start is advisable. If we take the need for such a utility as a given, the subject turns to the best approach. The resources at stake in such a utility (roughly speaking) are: processor time, programming time/complexity/memory consumption, and accuracy. Dan's ND4 approach is straightforward and accurate, but, depending on whether his implementation uses a background real-time display or a static snapshot approach, it's either processor-time intensive or less useful, respectively. The way I read your response, eavesdropping on memory allocation calls would sacrifice both accuracy and programming time/complexity/memory without the desired decrease in required processor time. That doesn't sound like such a bargain. :( Which brings us back to Dan's allocate everything method. I suppose it could be semi-static, taking advantage of the AES 4 messages to update only when the active application changes. Hmm. [Say, when can we expect that MMU-reliant memory defrag utility of yours to hit the market? :) ] Tom ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 74 Wed Dec 22, 1993 B.KANTOR [Bruce] at 23:27 EST Dan, Thanks for the reply and fixes. I hope you and John E. get the Warp-9 thing worked out. Patiently waiting for 003, Bruce ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 75 Thu Dec 23, 1993 F-D-PERCIVAL [Fred P.] at 07:27 EST Roger and Al, Actually I was trying to find out if there was a way to make the Geneva file selector as convenient to access as UIS. So far I'm still wondering. Clearing memory did not solve my problem with bouncing blocks in STeno. I'll try disabling fastload. This is an extremely aggravating problem. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 76 Thu Dec 23, 1993 T.FITZPATRI8 [Tom] at 21:53 EST RE: Geneva File Selector Access Fred, What do you mean, exactly, by "as convenient to access as UIS?" The options I'm aware of under Geneva are: o install the Chameleon DA (in the library here) for Desk menu access; o select Open from the File menu in the active application; o if the current application isn't GEM-friendly, put it to sleep and select Open from the background application's File menu; or o if you normally use the Task Manager DA, you can assign it a hotkey so that the selector is but two keystrokes away, e.g. ALT-T, CTRL-O. Depending on which method you choose, you might then want to press ALT-X, RETURN to set the filter to *.*. I normally use the single column file selector, but the 2 column mode allows folders to be selected for copying without being opened (a single shift-click does it). Thus, I'll hit ALT-2 as necessary. CodeKeys comes in mighty handy, making all the necessary moves with a single keystroke. Tom ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 77 Thu Dec 23, 1993 M.POCHE [Mick] at 23:20 EST Fred P. Just use the 'Call UIS' accessory to call up the Geneva (or any you have loaded) file selector. It should work fine. - Mick ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 78 Fri Dec 24, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 00:36 EST Fred P. - I'm entering this discussion late, so sorry if I'm stating what's already been said... But if you load the CALL_UIS.ACC, but do not load the UIS_III.PRG, the Geneva item selector will be called when you use the CALL_UIS.ACC. At least it works that way for me! Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 79 Fri Dec 24, 1993 F-D-PERCIVAL [Fred P.] at 06:29 EST Thanks for the file handling tips, Tom, Mick & Matt. This is exactly the information I was looking for! Clearing the fast bit on STeno and STalker did not solve my block problem either. Now I trying different loading orders for .ACCs. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 80 Fri Dec 24, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 09:04 EST Fred, Assign hotkeys (if they are not already assigned) to the standard apps, especially Geneva's Executive Manager. (The Geneva Manager, in other words. I think of it as the Executive Menu, which is pretty accurate as to what its role is.) Then, from any other app, you press that hotkey and the Geneva manager GEM menu bar appears. Alt-Spacebar, right arrow, RETURN is the key combo that will then pop open the Geneva item selector. Hotkeys can of course be used in the item selector, too; the manual describes these pretty well, and I can only add that they are *exceptionally* helpful if you are assigning CodeKeys macros to such operations. (CodeKeys, like any other good macro utility for any platform, does better duplicating keyboard keystrokes than it does replicating mouse clicks.) It goes without saying, of course, that going through a hoop or two to get the Geneva Manager to the foreground is never necessary just to access the item selector, since it will pop open from, say, Aladdin if you access any Aladdin menu that opens the item selector. I'm an avid MaxiFile user, and suggest that MaxiFile is the file-management tool of choice for all occasions. The usefulness of the Geneva item selector can't be denied, however, since it provides a quick, easy and powerful way to copy, rename, move, delete and search for files at any time, whether Maxi is loaded or not. (Yes, I know that Maxi can be run as a program, too, but my preferred way of running it is as a DA.) (You *could* run Maxi as a PRG and put it to sleep when you want it off the screen; this is one of the major advantages of Geneva.) Note that both the Geneva item selector and MaxiFile operate the same wau when you want to delete, move, rename or copy folders. Highlighting the folder (a single left click in Maxi, a shift-left-click in G's item selector) lets you do file operations on the folder. Roger, LoadAlad does not change Aladdin's behavior. The problem with aladdin is not that it doesn't multitask properly in terms of the screen display (and so on); it's that it opens many files at once, and needs to be set to single-tasking for safety reasons. It also is not able to multitask properly while accessing the serial port. But if you are running aladdin while reading messages off- line, feel free to set it to multitasking mode. John, Dan and others, A simple readout of the percentage of fragmentation would be great. Lest we continue to bemoan the fact that TOS can't unfragment memory on the fly, one thing TOs does NOT have is the problem that Windows has with the 64K heap. Anyone who thinks Windows is a modern multitasking system need only discover the problems of the heap and its 64K limit to be reminded that Windows is merely a shell on top of DOS. BTW, I supose one way that a memory manager could handle this problem of fragmentation is to automatically shut down apps in some intelligent way (saving data if necessary), and rerunning them in an order that it determined would be least likely to cause fragmentation. You can do this manually (I've tried it) and it works. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 81 Fri Dec 24, 1993 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 11:00 EST Tom, I didn't mean to pick on you. It sounds like you've got a good grasp on the problem. I just want folks to understand that the only real solution to this problem would be a complete rewrite of TOS memory management and all TOS/GEM programs (to be relocatable), making TOS more like the Mac. Obviously, that's not going to happen. Bruce, I'm sorry to make you repeat something, but what is the Warp 9 "thing" you mentioned regarding Geneva? Aren't they completely compatible? Matt, That's right. There's nothing magic about CALL_UIS. It simply makes a generic file selector call. It really has nothing to do with UIS at all. I've never had a need to use CALL_UIS, because I've always had at least one accessory (such as MultiDesk) installed that accesses the file selector. John ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 82 Fri Dec 24, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 14:40 EST Tom, Excellent advice. You obviously know how to use the G item selector. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 83 Fri Dec 24, 1993 R.SNYDER6 [Roger S.] at 19:59 EST Al, Thanks. I forgot about the open file concerns of Alladin. It would be nice to have it run in the background, but the problem I have mostly is that I have Aladdin loaded, but sleeping, and at some point load another term program which will not work because Aladdin is hogging the serial port. At least that is what I assume is happening. (When I remember I still have Aladdin loaded I go and shut it down.) Fred, I see others answered your question. As I said (and I see Al agrees), I generally just go to Maxifile for file manipulation. One of the biggest faults of other platforms is that they really have nothing close to Maxifile (at least that I have seen). --Roger ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 84 Sat Dec 25, 1993 B.KANTOR [Bruce] at 14:19 EST Dan, I don't mean to be a pain in the rear but I think I found another Geneva compatibility problem. I can't seem to print using Geneva and Superbase Pro. If I disable all auto progs and da's I still can't print. I can print from both Newdesk and NeoDesk if I disable Geneva. Regards, Bruce ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 85 Sat Dec 25, 1993 B.KANTOR [Bruce] at 15:04 EST John E., >Bruce, > >I'm sorry to make you repeat something, but what is the Warp 9 "thing" you >mentioned regarding Geneva? Aren't they completely compatible? They are almost completely compatible except for the following (it only occurs with Geneva and Warp 9 acceleration; if Geneva is not loaded or acceleration is turned off everything is OK). in 256 color VGA mode with Screen acceleration on an Geneva loaded: Atari Works - just open any document and try to work. The window background is not cleared. everything shows through; even the desktop. GemView - load a pricture with the log window open. the log window has redraw problems. Aladdin - use the reply editor and it also has redraw problems. These are 3 popular programs that have a similar problem. I am also having it with some less popular programs. Let me know if you need more info. regards, Bruce ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 86 Sat Dec 25, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 16:22 EST Roger, Yes, that's exactly what happens with the serial port. If you have an MSTe or a TT, you can use LoadAlad to force Aladdin to use one of the other serial ports, so you can leave Aladdin running in the background while using another telecomm app. (What I've done is to run STalker on one of the TT's other ports while Aladdin uses the regular port, and this works fine. This requires no fancy footwork from Geneva, since STalker does multitasking on any Atari when run as a DA.) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 87 Sun Dec 26, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 11:34 EST Bruce, Have you tried putting the Geneva Manager to sleep to see if you can print then? This is just a stab; I don't have SuperBase Pro. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 88 Sun Dec 26, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 21:15 EST Bruce, Just another stab, but I have noticed that where (in the AUTO folder) I place my spooler seems to make a difference. In some locations I will get no output to the printer. (BTW- I'm not using SuperBase Pro either) I know it's the old stand-by thing to say but... hve you tried resorting the AUTO folder? Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 89 Mon Dec 27, 1993 T.HEBEL [Spud Boy] at 01:17 EST Roger S. According to the Press release for Load Aladin, you can have other terminal prorams running with Aladin loaded as long as ALadin is not online. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 91 Mon Dec 27, 1993 O-ZONE [Flakes] at 18:48 EST That's tellin' 'em, Brenner. ~:^)X ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 92 Mon Dec 27, 1993 K.GERDES [TraceTech] at 19:44 EST Roger, Aladdin/LoadAladdin/Geneva: The method LoadAladdin uses to enhance Aladdin's serial port usage has the side benefit of Aladdin no longer "hogging" the serial port when offline. Plus the additional serial port code brings Aladdin up to today's standards. The part that is lacking? Aladdin's non-multitasking ability while _busy_ doing an online task. All other times, the system and serial port are available. For example: 1) Aladdin running but not online to GEnie - serial port available to any program 2) Aladdin connected to GEnie, no current operation - serial port available to any program (ie. downloads) 3) Aladdin connected to GEnie, doing an online operation - serial port occupied by Aladdin Why does Aladdin "monopolize" the system? Per Tim- mainly because of online _costs_. Doing something simple like accessing the menu bar will freeze the system with you still online. Add to that, multitasking which can slow down transfers. So the bottomline idea is to keep your GEnie session short and sweet, with few distractions. For multitaskers, could changes via LoadAlad remedy this? Maybe. Should precaution be used multitasking Aladdin? Yes and no. Sure Aladdin accesses alot of files, but from my GEMDOS/file experience [which I've got quite a bit of :) ] Aladdin keeps the same amount of open files as your average database- maybe 6 max. I don't see 'precautions' given for databases, but then nobody's reported a haywire operation with one I suppose. Just IMHO... Be cautious, but mainly in keeping your hard disk maintained. Sorry to go on so long. Come on over to the ST Aladdin RT, CAT 2 TOP 6, if you have further LoadAladdin questions. - Keith [TraceTech] ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 93 Mon Dec 27, 1993 R.SNYDER6 [Roger S.] at 21:23 EST Thanks, I have the PR for LoadAladdin and I guess I didn't read it carefully. I just wanted to not have to dump Aladdin every time I ran Flash etc. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 94 Tue Dec 28, 1993 R.SNYDER6 [Roger S.] at 00:55 EST Keith, Thanks for the info. I only pick up new messages from the Aladdin RT occasionally. I didn't even think that it makes sense to have a topic on it over there. Sounds like I could use this program. --Roger ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 95 Tue Dec 28, 1993 R.BEATTY3 [Buffalo Bob] at 03:51 EST Bruce, I use Geneva and Superbase Pro together routinely without a problem. I've got the execution flags set all on _except_ for Limit window handles, Limit memory and windows off the left edge. These may be defaults; I've never really gone in and diagnosed any sort of problem. I am running SB Pro on a TT, loaded into ST RAM but using TT RAM (the only program I have that requires this arrangement) and I use lots and lots of AUTO and ACC files. It can be done - but I'm not sure what your problem may be from reading your post. When you strip out all AUTO and ACC files, is the _only_ difference between printing and non-printing the presence of Geneva? Bob Beatty Neutronics Honolulu, HI ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 96 Tue Dec 28, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 14:29 EST The amount of overhead to de/allocate all memory is not too bad. Per block of free memory, you use 3 calls (1 to get the largest block, 1 to allocate, and 1 to free). Multiply this by what, 10 or 15 free blocks in a badly fragmented system, and the overhead is still pretty minimal. In fact, it will probably take less CPU time than making the cursor in STeno blink on and off. It could be monitored the way Tom suggests, but it gets kind of messy because you have to take executing programs into consideration. Bruce, I suspect that you are using a Falcon. There is a bug in the Falcon TOS that causes this to happen when using Geneva; I've found a way around this for rel 003. Dave S., The TOS 2.06 desktop, itself, takes up a bit of memory. Depending on how many icons and other things you have, this can be pretty large. The other thing to consider is that if you have run Geneva from the AUTO folder and quit it, you are not really getting all of Geneva's memory back. If, however, you run Geneva from the desktop and quit, then you do get it all back. Fred, Well, the beta testers have been very quiet (except for a few small things), so I'm about to release 003. In rel 003 you are able to assign a keystroke to the Geneva Manager menu. This means that if you want to get at the item selector, you can just press [Shift][Alt]G and then ^O. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 97 Tue Dec 28, 1993 J.DINGA [Jolly Jon] at 21:11 EST Dan or Al, I have that 'feature' of the disappearing characters in a TTP (etc) cli or dialogue, when I type them in. Is there a fix I missed, or a work around [other than crossing my fingers?]? ttyl ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 98 Tue Dec 28, 1993 H.WOLFE1 [Harvey] at 22:40 EST > JRH, That's Write does weird things to the keyboard repeat delay, > and this can affect other programs. Essentially, because of the > way putting an application to sleep works, That's Write is never > "told" it is no longer the topmost application, so it never > changes things back to the way they should be for other > applications. There's really no way around this other than to have > another app's window on top and then put That's Write to sleep > (e.g.: open the Task Manager and use it to Sleep TW3.) Dan, you left this message about a month ago. At present, I am a happy owner of That's Write 3 and I'd like to be a happy owner of Geneva. I was wondering if you and COMPO had found any way to tell TW3 that it's not the topmost application. I'm still hopeful since I remember reading that COMPO is your European distributor and I'd like to think that this increases the possibility of everyone successfully working together to find a solution. One other point. I also remember reading that there were problems with TW3's accessories when they were run under GEneva (I think that they couldn't communicate properly with TW3). Has that been resolved? Thank you, Harvey Wolfe ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 99 Tue Dec 28, 1993 D.BOWMAN9 [>>dave b<<] at 23:13 EST Hello All, Hi, I have a 1040 st w/4megs and a 245meg hard drive tos 1.4, Is there any REALLY good reason I would/should get Geneva?? most of what I do is Telecomm and Graphics(Gif) conversions. very few games. Also, can I multitask in different rez's....play games in ST low and run Calamus is ST hi (with switch boX) or do something in ST med?/ later, dave b ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 100 Wed Dec 29, 1993 PARADIGM [Mark O'Bryan] at 04:58 EST In Message 81, John Eidsvoog says: > > I just want folks to understand that the only real solution to this > problem would be a complete rewrite of TOS memory management and all > TOS/GEM programs (to be relocatable), making TOS more like the Mac. > Obviously, that's not going to happen. I probably ought to know better than to make off the cuff remarks without thinking over all the ramifications, but I'm feeling lazy, and since it's the Christmas season... Actually, all TOS/GEM programs are already relocatable. They're just not dynamically relocatable, i.e. the relocation information is discarded after the program is loaded. It would seem possible that a smarter loader (as used by Pexec or Shel_Write) could retain this relocation info (possibly in a compressed format) enabling later movement of code segments within memory. Of course, you've still got little problems like not being able to shuffle data segments, due to the use of pointers rather than handles, and that return addresses on the stack aren't PC-relative. Trivial stuff like that. ((O)) /=\ Mark O'Bryan, Paradigm Software Products [Dec26/93 at 9:47p] /===\ (makers of Omni-Banker ST, the universal MIDI librarian) ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 101 Wed Dec 29, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 12:42 EST Jolly, That's fixed in 003. Dave B., Nothing will let you run two different resolutions at the same time, if that is what you are asking. If Geneva were merely a multitasking operating system, many ST, TT and Falcon users could comfortably pass it by. But Geneva is much more. Among the features Geneva has are these improvements: o Enhanced menus and dialog boxes for nearly all GEM programs and accessories. The look and feel of the latest AES (a section of the operating system) is incorporated into Geneva, so that even users with TOS 1.0 and 1.04 are able to get such things as colored window objects, 3D gadgets, textured and shaded windows and buttons, and so on. o Tear-off menus that can be placed anywhere on the screen. o Easy hotkey switching from one program to another, at any time. o Vastly improved window resizing and manipulation. Windows can be moved and even scrolled while they remain in the background, for example. o Total removal of the TOS limitations on desk accessories. These limits are that only six DAs can be active at one time (under Geneva, there is no effective limit), and that DAs cannot be unloaded or loaded after you boot up. Under Geneva, you can double-click on any desk accessory and it will run, and you can remove any DA by killing it out of memory. o Total revamping of the way TOS and TTP programs are handled. They run in their own window, and other programs can be run alongside them, at the same time. o Ultimate control over the look and feel of the desktop, and of all the parts of the desktop. You can choose a smaller font for EVERYTHING, and this makes all windows and dialog boxes of cooperating applications smaller proportionately. This is ideal for those who need more real estate on the screen, since the effect in ST High mode is to give the equivalent of either 640X480 or even 800X600 when this is done properly. (Not all applications work with smaller fonts and windows, but many do.) o Complete reworking of the way GEM handles menus. They can be used as is, or can be turned into non-mouse menus with a single keystroke. These non-mouse menus work by either a hotkey or by noving the cursor with the arrow keys. o Faster response in many operations. The way GEM handles such things as mouse clicks and window scrolling has been cleaned up. There is much, much more. I didn't even mention multitasking, which of course is the most dramatic aspect of Geneva. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 102 Wed Dec 29, 1993 O-ZONE [Flakes] at 19:05 EST Al, So how does one get "003?" Can we download it from the library? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 103 Wed Dec 29, 1993 J.DINGA [Jolly Jon] at 21:41 EST Al & Dan, Now is the time for all of us to 'C' 003! 003! 003! hey, that could be a tune ;^) I WANT MY 003! :) :) :) /s ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 104 Thu Dec 30, 1993 D.BOWMAN9 [>>dave b<<] at 00:02 EST Hello there AL, ON the rez thing--I think I may have been thinkin' about Revolver by intersect. OK OK OK OK OK ;`} enough is enough I will buy Geneva. I was only on the edge( just a little bit would have pushed me over to buying the program). Your list was a little overkill for me--AND THAT WAS JUST A FEW OF THE GOODIES??!! Later, dave b ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 105 Thu Dec 30, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 00:39 EST dave b - What Al said, and more! You _won't_ be sorry you made the purchase. Geneva is teriffic! (and as you've seen, the support here is pretty nifty too!) Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 106 Thu Dec 30, 1993 M.POCHE [Mick] at 02:53 EST Dave B - Gotta throw in my two cents here and agree wholeheartly with Matt and Al! Having been the not-so-proud owner of SliccTop and MultiGEM, and having test driven MultiTOS, I have _finally_ found a multitasking environment that works, and works _great_!! Dan has outdone himself with Geneva and Neodesk. Now, I'm just waiting for release 003, Neodesk 4.0, and hopefully the CodeHeads will get us a multitasking version of HotWire soon to go along with them! Buy it.... you'll be glad you did! - Mick ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 107 Thu Dec 30, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:26 EST Mark, Good point. Who wants to volunteer to write some relocatable code? :) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 108 Thu Dec 30, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 04:09 EST Well... if there were some compilers for the Atari which compiled to relocatable code, many apps could be recompiled to take advantage of a new method. I think that memory handles and relocateable stuff should be added to TOS as a phase in. New programs should use it, old ones won't (but will still work OK). That way, ya still get to use the old stuff until newer programs come along that do it all. --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 109 Thu Dec 30, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:36 EST Flakes, It's not released yet. But Dan has said here that he's pretty happy with the lack of serious problems reported by the beta testers, and will be releasing it soon. I'd imagine that he'll have a version here on GEnie that patches 002 to 003. I've found 003 to be quite a solid version, with a couple of surprising enhancements. Dave, Yep, just a few. I forgot to mention that it comes with a good manual, too. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 110 Thu Dec 30, 1993 C.UNDERWOOD1 [Carson] at 07:49 EST Dan, What is the latest info on getting Cubase to run with Geneva? The last I heard was Gribnif had a call into Steinberg Jones. Did they ever contact you? Carson ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 111 Thu Dec 30, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 12:34 EST Dan, And Notator Logic with its funky menu bar? :) --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 112 Fri Dec 31, 1993 C.UNDERWOOD1 [Carson] at 10:32 EST "Funky Menu Bar" I believe I had a drink there once.....great band, too. :) ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 113 Fri Dec 31, 1993 B.KANTOR [Bruce] at 10:39 EST If I run Geneva from the auto folder and exit, should I get to NewDesk? I'm running on a Falcon 030 and getting a blank screen after exiting Geneva? Regards, Bruce ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 114 Fri Dec 31, 1993 DMJ [dmj] at 12:21 EST Bruce, If you run Geneva from the AUTO folder, you may not be able to "Quit" properly. On my 1040 I can't quit reliably. It doesn't bother me in the slightest, as I have to change all the AUTO programs and reboot when I don't want to use Geneva anyway. And besides, why would you want to quit Geneva? -dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 115 Fri Dec 31, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 19:17 EST Gribnif folks, et al: A safe and happy New Year to all! Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 116 Fri Dec 31, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 19:33 EST I've just uploaded the file GNVA_003.LZH, which will patch any Geneva 1.01 (release 002) to release 003. Happy New Year, everyone! Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 117 Fri Dec 31, 1993 DMJ [dmj] at 23:06 EST Dan, (drool, dribble, drip) Hey thanks! As if Geneva wasn't _already_ the best new piece of software for the ST/TT/Falcon line, you had to go and *update* it... twice! Thanks for all the work you've done for Atari users. Hope your head doesn't hurt too much Saturday morning (or evening, depending on when you wake up. ;-) -dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 118 Sat Jan 01, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 02:11 EST Thanks Dan! I hope it is cleared immediately. :) --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 119 Sat Jan 01, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 08:58 EST Dan!!! What a guy! Thanks for 003. Wish it were cleared NOW! Just had the strangest time at a new years party I've ever had... All the people there brought their kids along! Let me tell you, it was really 'special' having a bunch of six to eight year olds running and screaming through the house while the adults tried to keep control, _and_ party at the same time! (Jeez, I hate to use the word 'party' as a verb!) Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 120 Sat Jan 01, 1994 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 12:34 EST I have installed Geneva on my system and have not yet had much luck. Lot's of crashes and error messages. I guess I'm doing something wrong considering everyone is happy with it. The second I try to set flags with the Task manager there is a conflict and either the task acc dissapear, or I get an error message or a crash. Since I don't have much time right now to do extensive testing I have put Geneva asside. Has Geneva been plug and play for everyone? John B. P.S. this is not a critique of Geneva as I have no doubt that anything Dan and Rick release is of top quality. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 121 Sat Jan 01, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 12:45 EST Bruce, Probably not. I've never been able to do that, on the ST or the TT. I've also never cared. :) (What TOS desktop??) Damien and all, Happy New Year to you, too. My head didn't hurt at all. The strongest stuff I drink is coffee, of a variety of special blends. Helps me get more work done in each 24-hour day.... Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 122 Sat Jan 01, 1994 MUSE [Tomas] at 14:46 EST See Flat, No, it's not plug and play for everyone. In my case, I still can't use it all the time, but it's nice when I can. ===Tomas=== ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 123 Sat Jan 01, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 14:54 EST Al, Actually, I don't even drink coffee, let alone alcohol... but I know there are plenty of people who like to drink. (And usually end up regretting it the next morning. ;-) See Flat, For the most part, Geneva is "plug and play". Some programs need a little "tweaking" to get them to run under Geneva, but just about everything I've had runs fine. When you have more time, you might post a few more details about what you're doing and how your system is set up. Diagnosing problems with no details is like trying to use your computer without turning the monitor on. -dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 124 Sat Jan 01, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 14:59 EST John, Make sure you set the flags while NOT having the app or DA selected. Make sure all FL bits are OFF at the beginning; set them later when things are running OK. Make sure the version #s of TASKMAN and its RSC are the same. Put it early in the auto folder. Hmm, not sure what else could be a problem. If you are still getting crashes, post here and I'll get ahold of you privately. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 125 Sat Jan 01, 1994 M.MOTOGAWA [MEL] at 16:53 EST Dan, Thank you very much for the update. Can't wait until it's released for d/l'ing. - Mel ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 126 Sat Jan 01, 1994 W.TURCZYNSK1 [Bill] at 22:19 EST Dan: Heh, heh!! I just installed Release 003, v1.02. Just for kicks I loaded CuBase and tried to load a file, it worked!! It wouldn't even do that before, all buttons seem to work too. This a new version of CuBase I'm using, v3.1. Whatever, at least I get to first base now! What they call the Transport flashes when you click on a button but that ain't no big deal. If any problema arise, at least I'll have a shot fixing them with parameter changes. I was just talking to Rick on CIS about your problems getting a copy of CuBase. You probably may not need it now, since whatever major problem it was, is gone now. [Bill] ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 127 Sat Jan 01, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 22:34 EST John B. (See Flat) I've been using Geneva since rel 001 (Mega STe) and for the most part it was Plug and Play from the start. As others have stated, some programs need the flags to be set, and some just don't do well in a multi-tasking environment. (These can be easily set to be run as single tasking from within Geneva) When you get the time to post in more detail, I'm certain Al, Dan and the folks here can help you get things running smoothly. Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 128 Sat Jan 01, 1994 C.UNDERWOOD1 [Carson] at 23:54 EST Bill, Please keep us posted on your adventures with Cubase/Geneva. I'm curious, what machine are you using? I wonder how Cubase Audio for the Falcon will behave under Geneva? I am holding off on getting Geneva until NeoDesk 4 is released. I am hoping by that time all or most of the incompatabilities will be ironed out. Carson ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 129 Sun Jan 02, 1994 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 00:32 EST Dan: Thanks for the big patch to v.003. I'm sure there are many new and good things I have yet to find, but I was disappointed to discover that two of my major problems with previous versions are still there. WordPerfect, apart from the cosmetic problem of the mouse icon which has not been fixed, still cycles endlessly between windows if more than one is open. You can temporarily stop this happening by moving the mouse into the menu bar and dropping down a menu, but as soon as you revert to the text on screen the cycling continues. It seems that the problem of the XACC protocol not working with That's Write 3 also remains unchanged. Is this perhaps going to be fixed from the COMPO end, since an update to TW3 is expected shortly? Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 130 Sun Jan 02, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 00:34 EST Dan, I just got Rel 003 up and running. Kudos! :) I got my huge CICONS mon! Anyway, Notator Logic still has problems with its "Window" menu. I'm pretty sure that Emagic is using some of their own menu handler code which is interfering with Geneva. However, their stuff works fine with TOS/AES. Hopefully, you'll get a change to call Bob Hunt at Emagic to try and sort this thing out. Some nitpicky stuff... Dialog boxes which are set to a white background (white color, solid filled pattern), border of black at 1 pixel outside, shadowed, and set for 3d display don't draw the little 1 pixel ring around the box like the AES does. My -1 alerts have disappeared!!!!! YAY!!!! :) I can now use lots of stuff on my 14meg Falcon. See! I knew I wasn't just crazy. --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 131 Sun Jan 02, 1994 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 00:45 EST I just got finished installing the new upgrade. Everything seems to work so far and I already notice and appreciate the fact that resolution changes are fixed with Screenblaster. But where is the readme file that explains all the new changes and fixes? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 132 Sun Jan 02, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 02:38 EST Dan, et al- Just finished the 003 install... very smooth! Thanks ! Just a reminder (can't say it often enough) to anyone new to upgrading or patching programs... Backup the old files, just in case! (I know you folks mentioned this in the docs, just wanted to re-inforce the importance) Also, you might want to be sure you note all your flag settings as if you overwrite the GENEVA.CNF file, you will have to re-enter all of the settings you added to rel. 002 Only thing that could have made it better is if the upload had cleared sooner! Gotta go play! (thanks again!) Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 133 Sun Jan 02, 1994 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 05:00 EST Ok...here is the latest. I thought I wouldn't touch it for a while but all the posts leading me to believe it should be easier than it had been for me prompted me to try Geneva out again. I can't believe I just spent so much time on this! :-) In my past installation: Geneva never loaded Neodesk, it would give me some error message. When I'd access the Task manager the window would show up but the second I would try to access anything ie flags/options i'd get immediate 2 or 3 bombs and the acc would vanish from the list. With Geneva running I'd get crashes trying to run many programs... I was expecting this and figure that's what we want the flag thing for! ;-) Decision....it should be easier...let's start over. I scrapped everything Geneva related from my drive and proceeded to follow one more time, from scratch, install procedure. Once that was done ....NIGHTNMARE .....Geneva doesn't even want to run at all, I get a crash with a message telling me something like recursive gemdos something or other, I try juggling everything arround in the AUTO folder but nothing works. I took very good care in following the suggestions on page 7/8. I figure if I'm going to have this much pain I want it with the best and latest so I down loaded patch 003.PRG Backed my original Geneva disk, Used the patch program and once again re-installed the files on my drive. guess what........PERFECT, plug and play. Why it should be any different now I dont' know, I followed the exact same procedure. I like the new windows and buttons. I dont' like the dither patterns at all though, my window.cpx configurations were more my style now if I could have my old shades of Grey/Black/White scroll and title bars but with the new thinner 3d look window I'd be verry happy. All in all I've just spent about 3 hours doing this! I guess I am happier than if I would have spent 3 hours and it still didn't work! John B. In single tasking while others sleep Aladdin! ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 134 Sun Jan 02, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 10:15 EST Damien, I must admit a large weakness for coffee. I tried quitting coffee once, and was very unhappy, emotionally and physically. No doubt caffeine is one of the most powerful mood drugs in general use. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 135 Sun Jan 02, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 12:40 EST Carson, Don't hold off (if you can afford it). Believe me, it's easier to deal with one radically new piece of software at a time! Bill, WPerfect behaves OK here, on a TT. What machine are you using? John B., I'm puzzled, and I also have a glint of a clue as to your previous problems. Your older copy of G *must* have been munged somehow. At any rate, all of the look and feel of G (001 to 003) is configurable, so you can get any of the effects you previously had. The wcolors.cpx will do what it is supposed to do, and the bcolors.cpx likewise, and of course the dialog shading and coloring in G is also active, to whatever you configure it. All: Note that the submenu.cpx will let you adjust the depth of a GEM menu. The main effect this has in G is to allow you to have a very long list in the desk menu that does not need to be scrolled. I have mine set for 200, and am able to get a desk menu list that drops from the top of the 1040X768 screen to the bottom. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 136 Sun Jan 02, 1994 MIKE-ALLEN [NM~SysOp] at 12:58 EST Well, got Geneva 003 installed with no problems. So far so good. I love the iconizing of the task manager. Wish I could iconize more things that way. A couple of notes. The Mini_TX2 viewer seems to have problems with single line scrolls across a test attribute. I didn't have this problem with release 002. Yep, running in the single task mode. Also when I exit an app I seem to get a double re-draw of the NeoDesk (3.04 of course) desk top. No problem, just different than release 002. Running in ST Medium on a 4 meg MSTe, TOS 2.05, AHDI 6.05c. Speedo 4.00, Warp9 3.80. Various auto prgs, but nothing I wasn't running with release 002. Mike Allen ST HelpDesk~Sysop Written: 10:55 AM Mountain Time Sunday, January 2, 1994 ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 137 Sun Jan 02, 1994 W.TURCZYNSK1 [Bill] at 14:46 EST Carson: Why wait and have more to sort out? Gribnif said before that they'll make sure that the total cost of, say, NeoDesk v4.00 don't cost more than upgrading to v4.0 from v3.04. It would be nice to have more people using CuBase under Geneva because I'm from a power user. We could trade flag settings too! I'm using a STacy4/20 and a rack mounted Syquest 44 meg. but can add another 88 meg/CD-ROM combo which is connected to my ASR-10 now. I use an ICD Link for an interface. [Bill] ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 138 Sun Jan 02, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 14:52 EST See Flat, Now that you have Geneva up and running, pull open your Task Manager and play with the Options there. You should find you can customize the "look" of Geneva quite a bit. Instructions start in your Geneva manual around page 56; if you change how the buttons look, you'll find your scroll bars and arrows should look different. -dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 139 Sun Jan 02, 1994 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 15:17 EST Al, I guess I'll get around to finding all those features. :-) Something interesting, Tom Henry just posted in the CD topic that before he got 003 patch he was having problems with loading Geneva and Neodesk properly. He uses a T030 ....and yes, I am using a T030. Might be a coincidence but perhaps Jim's specialy licensed modified TOS 2.06 didnt' like something in 1.02 that 003 patch fixed! I've noticed that if I try to access the Help file from the drag down menu bar I get a message telling me the help file cannot be loaded/found, In any other area of Geneva (task manager or on line help) the help window comes up as it should. Has anyone else noticed this? Will Neodesk 4 support the new windows. (I've always wanted narrower scroll bars...they just look better!) Thanks for the help. John B. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 140 Sun Jan 02, 1994 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 17:05 EST Sorry folks but Geneva 003 does NOT work with Cubase Audio Falcon. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 141 Sun Jan 02, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 17:21 EST Flat, No doubt Neo 4 will support more than just the new window border sizes. . Make sure the location of the help app is listed in your PATH. I had a similar problem until I listed it there. (At least I think that was my problem. It's been behaving for a long time.) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 142 Sun Jan 02, 1994 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 17:23 EST Bill, > Gribnif said before that they'llmake >sure that the total cost of, say, NeoDesk v4.00 don't cost more than upgrading >to v4.0 from v3.04. I hope this is not true. As somone who has purchased Neodesk many years ago and has upgraded everytime I was given an opportunity (actually that was only once! and cheap too) I would find this bad policy. I do appretiate all the free patches Dan has given us but upgrade paths is one of the features of buying quality software from quality developers. I dont' care if the upgrade fee is even half of the cost that 4.00 will be, i.e. Retail 39.95 , upgrade from 3.04 $20.00 or if it's to be 69.95 ...then upgrade path ar 35.00 but long time support from registered users should be a contributing factor. Damien, I'll eventually get to page 56 I'm sure. In the meantime, I've loaded X-control and my windows are back to their beautiful selves. Actually Looking at the options in the task manager is one of the first things I did. I remember talking to Rick at Connecticut Atari Fest 93 and I kept asking why were the window scroll and title bars on the Atari windows so wide and he kept bitting his lip and talking about a project called "codename magic!" :-) Al, Once again I must comment on this manual, the best I've seen for an Atari product in quite a while. Way a go guys! John B. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 143 Sun Jan 02, 1994 GENIELAMP.ST [John G] at 20:25 EST Dan, I have runu across a small problem with the Geneva TASKMAN and GNVAHLP programs. It seems the background color of the window menu bar (not the title bar) is being read correctly, but the text color is always set to black. Is this something with me? I have tried setting it with the WINDOW CPX (which worked before) to no avail. It worked before, and strangely enough, the SAMPLE in the windows configuration in TASKMAN shows the correct colors. Is this something I am doing? John ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 144 Sun Jan 02, 1994 T.HENRY12 [Tom Jr.] at 20:39 EST J. Brenner, Just to be clear, I was having problems running NeoDesk, Geneva, and NVDI from the AUTO folder only. Without NVDI, it seemed to be OK, although I had to fiddle a bit with the AUTO folder to get just the right combination. What did work for me was to place NeoLoad and Geneva BEFORE the Turbo's T030CDN.PRG (the board's initialization program). No other combinations would work for me. Tom ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 145 Sun Jan 02, 1994 S.SWENA at 22:33 EST I just installed release 003 of Geneva and can't get the "quit" menu item to work properly. With TOS v3.06 and ttm195 monitor, when I select the "Quit Geneva" item in the geneva file menu the screen goes blank white, with a text cursor and will only respond to the reset command. I have no auto folder or .ACC programs installed except what the geneva installer installed. I suspect that this is normal behavior when Geneva is run from the auto folder. It would be nice if the "Quit.." item was grayed out when it can't be used ie.(When there is no Desktop to return to...). It "Quits" just fine if it has been run from the Atari Desktop or NeoDesk. With Steno v2.00 and STalker v3.02: Using the STeno window as an example, the keyboard shortcut [alt][delete], for the "full box", does not do the same thing as clicking on the "full box" with the mouse. It makes the window full or small (at the previous size/position) but only works for one cycle, rather than toggling location and size as the mouse/full box does. I did notice however, that if you click anywhere on the desktop or in the window, the [alt][delete] works again for one cycle. I am also having problems with the drop down menu redraw in STeno.ACC while it is on screen with STalker.ACC, and overlapping the STalker window with the STeno window left border, to the right of the STalker window left border ...STeno on top. The first drop down menu clicked on with the mouse does not reverse as the mouse pointer is moved down it. If you click on a command it works but if you move the mouse to one of the menus to the left or right, it drops down without the first one going away. You can even get all of the menus down at the same time if you click one down and then click outside the menu and then click another one down. This works the same with Geneva alone or with Geneva/NeoDesk. If you force a redraw by toping another window, all is back to normal until another menu is selected. Using the same relative window geometry as above except the STalker.ACC window on top, if you try to scroll the Steno(bottom) window holding right mouse button while clicking and holding the left button in the scroll box. The scrolling display moves up/down, past the overlap point into the top window (top window border and all) as if the clipping rectangle was not being observed. Stanley Swena ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 146 Sun Jan 02, 1994 R.PLAGGENBUR [Ralph / WA] at 23:16 EST Wow 003 for free! I love free things... I want to thank you for fixing the Page Assistant problem. Oh do I detect a slight slow down with 003? A timed macro that I use to save messages for later printing doesn't work any more because the screen redraws dont keep up! Ralph ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 147 Mon Jan 03, 1994 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 00:12 EST Al, I am using a Mega4STE with TOS 2.05. I never had this WordPerfect problem with TOS 1.0, TOS 1.04 or when running from the desktop or from the Hotwire shell with TOS 2.05. So it is a reasonable presumption that my problem is in some way Geneva related. It began with release 002. I hope someone can find an answer. Some positive changes notable so far. Input is now visible in editable fields in dialogue boxes. Clicking on the font name in the windows dialogue box in TaskManager now does invoke Speedo GDOS, which it didn't in 002. Cardfile now Sends to That's Write as it should, which makes me think that communication with TW should not be that hard to solve even with the XACC protocol, which works under TOS and I understand under MULTITOS. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 148 Mon Jan 03, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 01:02 EST Well, To add my bit to the 003 reports... The only 'problem' I've run into so far is in ST Low rez, after I quit from playing certain games. When I quit out of KLONDIKE, an older solitare program I run from an icon installed on the NeoDesktop, the Geneva Manager title is invisible in the DESK menu. It's still fully functioning, you just can no longer read it's name. All other items are visible as usual. (Have not set any flags for this prg yet... hadn't needed to in 002) The second, and last is when quitting out of Civilization. All of the icons are visible on the desktop, but _none_ of the labels are! Even reloading the NeoDesk.INF file doesn't bring them back. The flags set for Civ's GAME.PRG are: Limit window handles clear all memory (could this be the culprit?) Maximize window areas Redraw upon exit spec. obj. types Undraw Kbrd equivs. AES 4.0 ext. msgs. Any ideas? So far, with these two exceptions, G just keeps getting better and better! Thanks again Dan (et al!) Can't wait for NeoD4! I'll bet it's gonna be a killer! Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 149 Mon Jan 03, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 01:28 EST Sorry folks, Forgot about the GEnie format thing... The flags I have set for Civ's GAME.PRG are: Limit window handles Clear all memory (perhaps the prob?) Maximize window areas Redraw upon exit Spec. obj. types Undraw Kbd equvs. AES 4.0 ext. msgs. (I like it when things are easy to read!) Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 150 Mon Jan 03, 1994 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 04:21 EST Tom, that's interesting, I had never gotten to trying Geneva before the T030 loading program. Since Fast Technologie documentation stated the initialization programs must be run first to get proper operation and that TOSfix should followm and that GENEVA installation instructions said TOSfix should go before Geneva....well, you get the picture. :-) Since I have D/L patch003 I've had none of the grief, and Geneva is after the Fastek software and Neoload is last in my Auto folder. Gribnif, Dido S.Swena's quitting Geneva post. I have never left Geneva succesfuly. Blank screen, no control over system and must re-boot. John B. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 151 Mon Jan 03, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:44 EST John, Behaves the same way here, unless I have it set wrong. I noticed this (the text color being black) and thought maybe I had something amiss in my setup, but I guess not. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 152 Mon Jan 03, 1994 JIM.K [Jim~ST Sysop] at 11:20 EST Al or Dan, I too have the black text problem. I also have a problem with two bombs when I try to close the "About Geneva" window. Actually, I get the two bombs when I click on the move button. If I click anywhere inside the window, the window stays on the screen, but control returns to the topped app. All in all though, I think G is a great program. Thanks. Jim Kudron 3Jan94 11:12:48 ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 153 Mon Jan 03, 1994 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 21:27 EST When using my 1224 monitor, If I try to move Icons on Neo desktop they are not drawn properly until I do a screen refresh. Doee anyone have this problem. Note that when I'm in 640x480x56 on the Nova card everything is fine. Looks really good too! :-) I've also just noticed that everyone is talking about patching from 1.02 to 03 but I went directly from 1.01, I assume this is ok too? John B. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 154 Mon Jan 03, 1994 M.HEBERT1 ['Papa'] at 21:59 EST Hmmm...am I missing something? Release 003 finally made a convert of me. Now I can run my Speedo applications without crashes. I've figured out how to set the flags for my single-tasking apps and limit memory on my memory hogs. I've figured out how to start multiple applications at bootup. I've figured out how to "icon-size" application windows and line them up nice and neat at the bottom of my NeoDesk screen. But ... How the heck do I get those puppies to come up in "icon-size" at bootup instead of full size? Is there any way to configure the default window size that an application opens? It would be just ever so nice if I could set a default window and iconize loaded or running apps (like having the Task Manager's "delta" button in every window). Or . . . is this something to come in NeoDesk 4? 'Papa' ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 155 Mon Jan 03, 1994 W.TURCZYNSK1 [Bill] at 22:31 EST Dan/anyone: I think someone else just asked this but I'll ask again. How do you change the shade, pattern, etc. of the move and scrolling bars? I don't see anything in the OPTIONS and I've tried the window color CPX and it don't seem to change it at all. While fiddling around, I've managed to change the Taskman menu bars but return at reboot. The untopped windows look perfect on my STacy while the topped windows are too dark when viewed at a slight angle. [Bill] ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 156 Mon Jan 03, 1994 J.RENNER1 [Kheldar] at 22:50 EST Help, I have a couple of problems with Geneva (003) that appeared with the new version. The first is a disappearance of the border surrounding the scroll bar in most of the Xcontrol CPXs. The sound CPX for example. The second is the fact that when i use aladdin with geneva and try to REPLY to a message the message window is not FILLED properly. All the test and buttons show through. When i type no part of the window is redrawn properly. Thanks, Jim. P.S. I just tried placing neoload before warp9 and the alladin problem went away. Strange. Still hoping for a solution to my other problem. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 157 Mon Jan 03, 1994 J.RENNER1 [Kheldar] at 23:05 EST Me again, I also noticed that the yield dialog icon is ALL black. The stop sign icon looks fine but not the yield. Any ideas. (TT medium res.) Jim. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 158 Tue Jan 04, 1994 S.AGARWAL [SANJAY] at 02:01 EST I have just loaded Geneva 1.1 release 002 onto my TT and am delighted with it. However, I use Home Accounts 2 a lot and find that I get 2 bombs (without recovery) on quitting the program. It really is a shame since I use the program frequently. Is there some configuration I could change? Or, is this problem resolved with release 003? Any suggestions would be welcome. Thanks, Sanjay, ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 159 Tue Jan 04, 1994 S.SWENA at 03:02 EST This is a question for anyone who may have discovered the answer already. With Geneva rel 003, Is there any way to attach selections in the, task manager miscellaneous options, to individual programs like the flags settings in the file menu of the task manager? I can't get the sub-menus in the Lattice-C v5.52(editor 3.10) to work at all unless I set Geneva to Atari style drop-down menus. And in this configuration, the tear-away menus that have sub-menus don't work. This is no doubt something in the Lattice code expecting to have the menu entered with the mouse button up. If you drag the Atari style menu with the mouse, as if it were a "pull down", the sub-menus and tear-away menus don't work. Thanks in advance for any suggestions or work around. Stanley Swena ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 160 Tue Jan 04, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:22 EST Flat, Since G entirerly replaces the TOS desktop (with none at all save a minimal shell), its ability to persuade the rest of the OS to "restore" a desktop that never appeared is chancy at best. This is not a deficiency in Geneva, and probably should not be considered a failure of TOS. It's just the nature of such a radical surgery on the operating environment. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 161 Tue Jan 04, 1994 F-D-PERCIVAL [Fred P.] at 07:28 EST I installed Geneva 003 and I still have my problem with Atari Works. Here is what happens: I start up Works from the Neo desktop. I then open a short dummy file to set my parameters. Then I load in a straight ASCII file of about 10,000 bytes. Then I hit ^A to select the entire document. Then I hit ^M to strip the CRs. The instant I hit ^M the reverse text in the window reverts to normal and I get three bombs. This happens whether I running just Geneva, Neo & Speedo, or my full suite of AUTOs and ACCs along with them. If I disable Geneva, all is just dandy. Works 1.2, Speedo 4.1, MSTE4, TOS 2.05, ICD HA and software. Any ideas? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 162 Tue Jan 04, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:34 EST Jim, I haven't seen the bombing, and I have a TT also (as you know). I wonder if the order of things inthe auto folder has anything to do with this? I've done a lot of reordering over the months and have come up with an order that seems to work for everything. Geneva itself is not senstive to placement (within certain common-sense bounds), but a lot of other stuff that I have running with G is. John B., I went back to the ST, G 003, NeoDesk, 1224 monitor, and could not duplicate the problem of the icon redraws. I suspect NeoDesk's own setup may be munged. Make sure you are using Neo 3.04 and have the correct RSC file for 3.04. ... Ah, since you said the desktop under the Nova card works fine, check the settings under Preferences to see if VDI is checked for the 640X200 NeoDesktop. Other than that, this is a mystery. I haven't seen Neo redraw problems in any of the beta or release versions. Papa, The size of an application's window is controlled by the application. Some apps are quite cooperative, as you already know; Works, for example, remembers its window sizing perfectly. Calligrapher remembers its window sizing EXCEPT for the first window opened in any session (a bummer, as they say). Flash has only one idea of what a window size is ... the entire size of the screen. (Even at 1280X960, it takes up the entire real estate). What I've come to rely on is the hotkey for putting an app to sleep to get it out of the way when I am not directly using it (and can afford to let it go to sleep). This clears it off the screen, out of the CPU cycles, and out of mind very effectively. I've also found a couple of helpful hidden features of some apps. STalker, for example, has self-contained GEM menus when it is run as a DA, which is the way ALL apps should behave under a multitasking system (they should all be contained entirely within their own window). But of course, as we all know, STalker uses the main GEM menu bar when run as an app ... right? No, all you need to do to have STalker run completely within its own window is to run it from GEM.CNF with a "-m" after the filename. This is handy, to say the least. Bill T., The Window Colors CPX handles the Window gadget appearance, while Geneva itself handles the shape and 3D look of the buttons and bars. Why this would not work on the STacy is a mystery. These changes work in nearly all GEM apps (I've found only a couple that don't cooperate out of many hundreds), not just at the desktop or in the TM window. The Dialogs menu under the Options menu handles the changes G makes to dialog boxes and buttons. You won't see a change in some of these settings until you save the CPX and TM settings and reboot. Jim Renner, It's possible that the border size in your Windows setup (under Options) is too small for the text to appear; older versions of G (going back many months) would try to squeeze the text into that area anyway, with unpleasant results, if it had been made too shallow, but 003 simply leaves the text out if it can't fit properly. Check the window-border size to see if that's the case. All the icons that Dan Wilga created are indeed in color, but at least one is gray. I've mentioned to him that a brighter shade might be more helpful. Sanjay, Does Home Accounts use Speedo GDOS? The bomb-on-exit appears to be a problem involving Speedo, from my own experience and reports from others. I juggled the order of AUTO folder entries and reduced the problem, but did not get it to go away. Stanley, Dan may have an answer to the submenu problems. Judging from the constant work he has been doing on Geneva's code to accommodate the idosyncracies of older compilers, he may have seen this problem already. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 163 Tue Jan 04, 1994 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 18:11 EST Gribnif, I miss LGS. I realize Geneva's item selector has many features but when I used to call up LGS I had Maxifile at my fingertip. I am also used to selecting files via keyboard and reaching for the mouse all the time is not one of my favorite things. Is there any chance the choice of an alternate file selectors might ever be implemented on Geneva? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 164 Tue Jan 04, 1994 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 19:00 EST Al, it's quite a funny phenomenon. When I drag an Icon on the desktop change it's position, the "object" part of the Icon moves but the name bar underneath remains at the old location, and highlighted. When I do a screen refresh the bar re-appears under the Icon where it belongs. After your post saying you could not duplicate, I stripped everything and only ran Geneva with Neodesk and Task Manager. No difference. It does it in Medium rez and Low rez Yes, VDI is checked for both 640x200 and 300x200 INF file. It's funny that it would do this in rezolutions that have existed for so long and that it works properly in 640x480x256! And I might add, looks great. I'll pull out the ST and see what happens. Thanks, John B. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 165 Tue Jan 04, 1994 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 19:35 EST Al, Well, I also have the bad icon redraw syndrome if I use Neodesk 3.04 on my 1040STf. Everything is fine in Monochrome or on the Nova. The problem is also not Geneva related as I have reproduced it without Geneva being installed. I'll see If perhaps something went wrong with the Neodesk 3.03 to 3.04 patch. If the problem persists I will take my inquiries to the Neodesk topic since Geneva has nothing to do with it. Thanks for the help, John B. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 166 Tue Jan 04, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 19:53 EST Al: - STalker, for example, has self-contained GEM menus when it is run - as a DA, which is the way ALL apps should behave under a multi- - tasking system (they should all be contained entirely within - their own window). I don't necessarily agree with that. If windows could be nested (i.e. windows inside windows) I would agree, but they can't, and a single application that opens multiple windows would duplicate its menus in each window. The way NeoDesk 4 was described in Gribnif's newsletter seems to be a much better approach. This is, of course, strictly my opinion. See Flat, As I recall, the NeoDesk 3.04 icon-dragging problem was related to the .RSC file, and would appear in any 200-line resolution. (?) I'm sure it will be non-existent in NeoDesk 4... (putting words in Dan Wilga's mouth ;-) -dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 167 Tue Jan 04, 1994 Y.DUFRESNE [Y.Dufresne] at 20:17 EST I also just installed 003. It look fine up to now except for SL. The Limit memory flag no longer prevent SL from running but it generates some strage behavior. If the flag is on, at any value, SL takes up everything in the system, including (I think) small blocks. Then, the Statistics dialog in SL state that I have no ST RAM left and whatever it has available in TT RAM. The funny part is that I'm running on a MSTe with 4 Megs of ST RAM. The result is that the system can no longer allocate any memory and if an alert box get on the screen and I try to move it, I get an other one saying Not Enough Memory. For larger dialogues not drawn by SL, they don't redraw correctly. This is not such a big deal but I'd like it to work. Congrats on the good work Dan! Yanick ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 168 Tue Jan 04, 1994 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 20:45 EST Dan, Kudos on a rock-solid release 003 of Geneva! I found that the newest version of your program successfully cured two of my pet peeves with release 002 - 1) disappearing characters in editable fields created with the WERCS resource construction program (i.e., LGS, MaxiFile) and 2) the inability to select either the Yes or No button for the Indexer feature when printing from Calligrapher 3. In addition, I like the new (delta gadget) iconize main window feature that you added to the Task Manager. I'd like to see this available on all Geneva windows in some future release. The only problem that I've encountered so far, and this is hardly significant, is that if one tries to load the Antic A-Calc CALC.ACC desk accessory at boot up, one's system will lock up just prior to loading the desktop. Oh, and also, the Shift-control G key combination does not seem to work to move one from one's application (or NeoDesk) to the Geneva screen. I'm very pleased to be able to use the new Release 003. I had no trouble patching my disk and the installation process was smart enough to just add to my existing GENEVA.CNF file rather than overwrite it. Now, I'm real excited about the prospect of upgrading to NeoDesk 4.0! I can hardly wait for March! ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 169 Tue Jan 04, 1994 M.TERRY5 [Martin] at 20:50 EST Hey Geneva Fans, Has anyone tried some of the extended functions available through GENEVA? Yesterday I modified some Resource Files to allow for Keyboard equivalents in some programs that normally require the mouse. The results were FANTASTIC! You decide what key equivalents you want! And all I needed was a resource editor and Memfile! Now Outline Art Menus are available to me by keystrokes! This could be _very_ interesting! Martin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 170 Tue Jan 04, 1994 JWC-OEO [Jon] at 21:14 EST Dan, I got the 003 patch and it installed with no problems and am pleased. WordPerfect has fewer quirks with the new version and the Geneva "Help" stuff actually works (there were a lot of problems with it before, at least on my Falcon). The GFA BASIC interpreter/editor still is a no go unfortunaltely and for the same reason as before. You cannot do ANY memory management. One RESERVE command and it's time to reboot. I really think that the README file that comes with Geneva should mention this and I hope you can fix it someday. There is no competative disadvantage the way it is though, MultiTOS can't run GFABASIC.PRG at all. One last item, the new release draws BOXTEXT objects that have object flag bits 9 and 10 set differently from the previous release and from Atari's desktop and newdesk...the border is always transparent. Jon ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 171 Tue Jan 04, 1994 J.RENNER1 [Kheldar] at 21:53 EST Al and Dan, I discovered why my dialog icons are not displaying properly, but i need some help to figure out how to fix it. When NeoDesk loads it changes color 6 of my TT color palette from yellow (the color for the yield and diamond signs) to black. Only this color. The other strange thing is that, by using the XControl Color CPX, i discovered that the color is not really changed. The RGB values are still 15,15,0. But the color appears to be black. If i click on reload in the CPX the color is changed to yellow (although the values remain unchanged). Strange?! Can someone decipher this for me. And i know it is neodesk because i tried the system bare without NeoDesk, and bare with NeoDesk. Jim. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 172 Tue Jan 04, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 22:59 EST Altho it is great to have 'submenus' in their relevant windows... I think the MAIN menu bar for an application should always be in the SAME place (at the top for my preference). I hate it when I accidently click on the menu of a background app by mistake when using WinDoze (like right now). :) It is version 1.01 Rel 003. Key word here is release rather than version number. :) --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 173 Tue Jan 04, 1994 STAN.S.PAGE [STAN PAGE] at 23:26 EST I asked this once and got no reply. Since I have the flyer for Neodesk 4 I'll ask it again. Does any one know for sure! that Geneva works with an SST board from Small. I have such a board but do not wish to purchase Geneva unless I know it does work on the SST board. Thanks, Stan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 174 Tue Jan 04, 1994 S.AGARWAL [SANJAY] at 23:51 EST Al, No, Home Accounts 2 does not use Speedo GDOS but reliably bombs on exit under Geneva. Thanks, Sanjay. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 175 Wed Jan 05, 1994 L.HINSLEY [Stargazer] at 01:34 EST Sanjay, Hello there!! I had similar problems with Home Accounts 2 under Geneva 002. Whenever I exited the program I didn't get bombs, but the whole machine would hang up. I had to setup an item in the 'Flags' section to get it to work (I forget exactly which ones). BTW, I just tried accessing it under Geneva 003 and it worked fine upon exiting without any flags. ***** Stargazer ***** ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 176 Wed Jan 05, 1994 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 02:47 EST Damien, So you've heard about the problem! Interesting. How come Al can't get it to happen. Now I'm currious. :-) John B. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 177 Wed Jan 05, 1994 C.BINCKLEY [-- Chuck --] at 06:23 EST Dan, Well, man, you are a GENIUS! I don't know how you did it, but... _CUBASE WORKS!!!_ and in MULTITASKING MODE! (...and I'm only using Cubase version 3.02...) I haven't done any extensive testing to insure the integrity of the transmitted MIDI data, but all the functions of the program seem to be working. Talk about "one giant leap for Mankind"! I've actually been able to run both X-oR and Cubase at the same time with 4 megs of RAM on a Mega STE (actually, there was about 2.7 megs available from the NeoDesk desktop _before_ launching the programs - I hope they release the STE version of XtraRAM+ _real_ soon!). The only problem I noticed was with X-oR - it still seems to have some difficulty with complex MIDI transfers under Geneva... For those interested, I'm using TOS 2.06, 16MHz WITH cache, Unsquish (for Squish II), DataLite, JarXXX, Geneva release 003, Fontload, Warp 9, MIDIINIT and AUXINIT (I have a MIDI channel expander on the STE's modem 1 port), NeoLoad, and these .ACCs: Silkmouse, Warp 9 control panel, TaskMan, and XControl. Geneva loads NeoDesk. This setup is strictly for MIDI, though - I have a whole bunch of other stuff I run when I'm not trying to conserve memory for the MIDI stuff. Like CodeRam, SpeedoGDOS, NeoControl, GemSound, etc. Oh, and the OTHER good news: AtariWorks NO LONGER CRASHES when I exit the program after having accessed the Page Setup dialog! HOORAY!!! THANK YOU, DAN!!! Can't wait for ND4! -- Chuck -- ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 178 Wed Jan 05, 1994 F-D-PERCIVAL [Fred P.] at 07:43 EST See Flat, I also encountered the fragmented icon phenomenon; I've got an MSTE. I had just installed Neo & Geneva together and assumed this was normal behavior. I managed to get everything properly placed(after several attempts) by guessing what the correct position would be if I could see the whole icon, then covering and uncovering the desktop to see the whole icons again. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 179 Wed Jan 05, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 15:58 EST JWC-OEO, Please drop me a private email note with some more details (or a RSC file) as to the 3D effect you are noticing. Martin, Use that feature with caution, and make sure to keep a backup of your old files. Mike S., Um, you might want to look again. The INSTALL.PRG isn't smart enough to add to your old GENEVA.CNF file! I'll take a look at CALC.ACC. Yanick, If you are using SL, you should NOT use the LImit Memory option in Geneva. The weird way that SL does things is just not compatible with the way Geneva does it. Use SL's System module to set the amount of memory to reserve. Fred P., I tried this myself and can't reproduce it. Of course, I do have Speedo 4.11, so perhaps that is the difference. Does anyone else notice this? See my message to John B., below, about the fragmented icons. Sanjay, That's not a program I have here to test with. Does anyone else have experience with Home Accounts? Kheldar, The newer versions of Atari's CPX's have their attributes set correctly so that the gadgets can be seen. There was an interim version which used a method for doing 3D buttons which Atari themselves no longer support. (Geneva supports the final version only.) The reason the icon is black is that you have the colors set that way in the control panel. You should use NeoControl to change the color and then Save Config in NeoDesk to set it permanently. Papa, I assume by "icon size" you mean that you dragged a program's icon from a window to the NeoDesk desktop. After you have things like you want them, you can just use Save Configuration to make this permanent. Every program you runs decides for itself what size its own windows will be; this is not a function of Geneva, but of the programs themselves. Some will save window size and position when you save the program's configuration. In order for an application to be able to be "iconized" (with the delata button) it has to realize this possibility. This cannot be done for older applications. Jim K., Are you using 003? If so, then your problem might be related to a screen accelerator program. Which one are you using? Matt, I'll try the games you mentioned. This sounds more like a screen accelerator problem. Ralph, I doubt that there is a slowdown at all. Very little code was changed in the event handling. Stan S., Quit Geneva is *supposed* to work better than that if you don't have any other AUTO folder programs loaded. I'll take a look at it; maybe something is broken. Ah, you must be the person I talked to on the phone a few days ago. I think I covered all the questions in your first letter when you called. As for Lattice's editor, IU'm going to have to see if I can get a copy of it from Oregon. The Misc. Options cannot be set per application; they are global. John G., The color of the menu text cannot be changed, since it is stored in the RSC file which is used by the program itself, and does not "belong" to Geneva. The background pattern can be changed, since it is not part of the RSC file. John B., Perhaps there is something wrong/missing in your GEM.CNF file. All the paths should be absolute (including drive:\folder\file). The INSTALL.PRG normally assures this, but if you did not use it or if you modified the file, this might be the reason. Yes, NeoDesk 4 will support the narrower windows. The cost of upgrading is $25.00. We have sent out a newsletter which you should be getting shortly. The reason for the icons not being drawn correctly in med rez is a slightly bad RSC file. On your NeoDesk 3.04 patch disk, there is a file called SRSC.SFX which contains replacement RSC files. What everyone is talking about with version numbers is that the patch I just uploaded is release 003. What you had previously was *version* 1.01 (or release 002). It's a bit confusing, so next time around we are going to skip a version . You can use any replacement item selector you want; it just won't come up in the Open menu of either Geneva Manager or the Task Manager. There are also a whole range of ways to select files in Geneva's item selector, you know. It's all in the manual. David F., The GNVA_003.TXT file lists all of the changes in this version. It *is* in the archive, isn't it? Mike A., I'll make a note of those things. There might be a reason for that double- redraw that should be fixed. Kevin, I thought I fixed all the 3d stuff, but I guess not. I look at that. Bill N., I justtried opening 4 WP docs and had no problem switching between them. You do have WP set to single-task, as the program flag suggests, right? As the README file said, a change needs to be made in the TW3 DA's in order for them to work. The other option is to use TW3 in single-tasking mode. Bill T., That's fantastic! Let me know what flags need to be changed and I will create a permanent entry for it. Let me know the filename, too. Does it work in multitasking mode? The WCOLORS.CPX does change the colors/patterns of windows. However, there are two things you need to remember: 1. If you are using NeoDesk, you will have to quit it and re-run it in order to actually see the changes. 2. For most other programs, you have to close their windows and re-open them somehow in order for the changes to happen. To make your changes permanent, you have to make sure to use "Save" in WCOLORS.CPX. Bruce, The way it's supposed to work is that if you exit a Geneva that was run from the AUTO folder, it will return you to Atari's desktop/AES. This may or may not work, depending on what else you have in your AUTO folder. Carson, I've now heard from a user on CompuServe that if you use the latest version of CuBase and the latest Geneva together, they do work. he did say that he needed to get a few minor things worked out, though. You might want to contact SJ about an upgrade. Harvey, I've been trying to communicate with the authors of That's Write about this through Compo. We'll see how it goes. As for the DA's, this is the fault of the old protocol used by the TW DA's. The authors have come up with a new method which does work properly, but they have not yet updated all of their DA's to use this method. If you have an old DA which you need to use, you can put TW3 into single-tasking mode, and it will work. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 180 Wed Jan 05, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 17:38 EST Flat, Are you a CodeHead CodeKeys user? CodeKeys will let you create single-key equivs for the G item selector's multiple keystrokes. This is what I've done, and it works fine. (No mouse movements are ever needed when using the G item selector, by the way; that's one of the strengths of the G selector. All actions can be done from the keyboard, which means they can be done by a macro from Codekeys when they involve multiple keystrokes.) One of the DC utils is one that pops up MaxiFile when you press the right mouse button. I tried this out the other day, and it works fine under Geneva. It's one of the freeware items from DC, and is here in the libraries. Also, I checked for the display problem you mentioned on the ST as well as the TT, using the same res, and couldn't duplicate it at all. Damien, Look at Edith, and you'll see how what I describe can be done very sensibly. Menu bars within "child" windows can be quite appropriate. Martin, Since this can be done without MemFile and a RSC editor, I'm lost. Can you explain? G lets you do this kind of thing anyway, yes? Jim, NeoDesk's color palette is stored in its own configuration files. When you "fix" the palette with the CPX, all is well until the next time NeoDesk loads, because it reimposes its own palette. You need to make the palette changes, then save the NeoDesk desktop, for each resolution. This is actually a huge advantage, since you can have one NeoDesk desktop with one palette and one with another. I have one that has reversed colors, for example. Kevin, Thanks! Release 003 is what I should be calling it. Stan, Why wouldn't it work? It runs on all STs, TTs and Falcons, and should run fine on the SST. Anyone here know for sure? Sanjay, I like that "reliably bombs" part. You can depend on that crash. :) Any difference when HA is run in s-tasking mode, or when its flags are changed? STARGAZER: Please post the flags you have set for HA. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 181 Wed Jan 05, 1994 M.TERRY5 [Martin] at 19:15 EST Stan, I should be able to answer your questions about Geneva and SST compatibility after this weekend. I'm waiting for some SIMM's and then I will install mine. Hope it works!! Martin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 182 Wed Jan 05, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 19:22 EST Jon, If you'd like to post in detail your problems with the GFA interpreter (if you haven't already) you can visit the GFA topic or the Geneva programming topic. You should also note that there is a GFA listing with the Geneva 003 release. Jim, That's funny... I've had reports that color 6 on the TT gets scrambled in other programs (like mine). I wonder what causes it? I thought it was me (maybe it still is) but if NeoDesk shows similar symptoms... maybe not. Aw, heck, I'm probably just shooting off half-cocked. -dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 183 Wed Jan 05, 1994 J.WISNIEWSK2 [Jeff - ST'er] at 19:45 EST Does anybody have/know of a program like 'Abbreviator' that will work with Geneva?. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ JSW ^^^^ ^^^^ ST'er ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Wednesday, January 5, 1994 - 7:10:50 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 184 Wed Jan 05, 1994 W.TURCZYNSK1 [Bill] at 21:04 EST Chuck: You didn't have to Limit Memory for running CuBase with X-oR? I can't seem to get anything to run with CuBase even when set to single tasking mode. I've tried to lower the memory but got so low that CuBase wouln't even load. Hmmm, got to play more with it. Dan: I'll try the CPXs again. I'm the guy that's been talking to Rick on CIS about CuBase v3.1 but as Chuck said, v3.02 works, so you did the fixing. I'm also the guy with the NeoDesk CLI Review Copy, Not for Resale too! [Bill] ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 185 Wed Jan 05, 1994 M.MOTOGAWA [MEL] at 21:05 EST Jeff, How about Spelling Sentry? It can do most of what Abbreviator did and much more in many ways. Codekeys also saves innumerable keystrokes. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dan, A demo of Home Accounts 2 is in the file library, file #23136 HOMEACC2.LZH X ABC.SOLN. It's handled by ABC Solutions. - Mel ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 186 Wed Jan 05, 1994 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 21:23 EST Yes Dan, the GNVA_OO3.TXT file is in the archive and I'm the one who should have the sheepish look sorry. I didn't read the whole file the first time. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 187 Wed Jan 05, 1994 JWC-OEO [Jon] at 21:51 EST DMJ, I don't have a problem with the GFA interpreter. I was just pointing out that both my Falcon and Mega 2 hang up immediately whenever a RESERVE command in any form is used and it's run through Geneva. The GFA listing that came with 003 has an advise section that says to start programs with a RESERVE statement. This is okay when their compiled but they WILL NOT WORK with the interpreter with this included. Try it, it ALWAYS happens and is very easy to check. If you can use RESERVE commands in the interpreter when using Geneva, please let me know what settings you are using. I have tried many different ones without effect. Jon ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 188 Wed Jan 05, 1994 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 22:01 EST MEL > How about Spelling Sentry? It can do most of what Abbreviator >did and much more in many ways. Codekeys also saves innumerable >keystrokes. True, but Abbreviator handles longer "abbreviations" better than the other two, IMHO. BTW, I am not bias; all three programs are resident on my system. Well, I presume Abbreviator is the problem, right? ~~Brian..Written on Wednesday 05 January 1994 at 10:46 p.m. ADT ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 189 Wed Jan 05, 1994 P.NEREO [Philip] at 22:52 EST I want to multitask between Wordflair II, (with Speedo and an SLM804), and DynaCadd on my Mega 4ST with a Moniterm card and a T16. Can anyone tell me if this is possible, or if it definitely will or won't work? Do you think I could add STraightFax too? Can I still use Warp9, or Hotwire, or UIS III? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 190 Wed Jan 05, 1994 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 23:03 EST Mike (and Dan,) Thanks, Mike, for discovering the iconizing gadget in the TaskManager. (In my setting of the window fills, it is an octagon, not a delta, as is a similar gadget with a different function in That's Write 3.) I find however that it does not always work. After using a single-tasking application, the icon disappears, and the gadget will no longer iconize the menu. If I still want to iconize, I have to terminate the TaskManager and re-invoke it from Drive C's window. I agree that it is a good idea and one that might well be extended to all windows under Geneva. But I would like it to work all the time as well. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 191 Wed Jan 05, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 23:08 EST Dan - Man, your typing up a storm here! > This sounds more like a screen accelerator problem < The funny thing is that I never had the problems with either the initial 0.95 or rel. 002. All files in AUTO folder and all ACC's remain unchanged. (?) BTW - the 003 upgrade/conversion went flawlessly. Anyway, it's not a big problem... I don't stay in ST Low rez too long once I've exited a game, and I don't play too many of _them_, either! I guess one could call it a petty annoyance! I know you must be working 'like a dog' but pardon me if I chant a while... NEO4... NEO4... NEO4.... ;-) Thanks again, Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 192 Wed Jan 05, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 23:43 EST Jon, That's funny, I could have sworn the new View II config program has a RESERVE at the beginning of the program... and I've run it compiled AND interpreted. I'll double-check this tomorrow and post my findings (and settings) in the GFA topic. The GFA listing that comes with Geneva release 003 advises the use of RESERVE based on my own experience. Your mileage may vary. -dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 193 Wed Jan 05, 1994 B.KANTOR [Bruce] at 23:59 EST Everyone, - H a p p y N e w Y e a r - I've just downloaded and installed release 003. It's wonderful; I now only have one conflict; all the rest of my apps work flawlessly. Thanks Gribnif for a great job. Dan, My remaining conflict is with Lattice C (ver. 5.60; the latest). The popup submenus don't work. They popup, but selections are ignored. It works from NewDesk but fails with Geneva and no auto progs and DA's (Al, this is why I want to exit to NewDesk). Regards, Bruce ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 194 Thu Jan 06, 1994 J.WISNIEWSK2 [Jeff - ST'er] at 00:08 EST Mel, >How about Spelling Sentry? It can do most of what Abbreviator did and >much more in many ways. Codekeys also saves innumerable keystrokes. I have Spelling Sentry but I really don't use it and there was something about it's abbreviations that I did not like. I do use CodeKeys but it cannot change the 'i' to an 'I' and stuff like that. Abbreviator is nice because it is small and does the job. Brian, >Well, I presume Abbreviator is the problem, right? Yep, it causes Aladdin to bomb whenever I have Abbreviator loaded in. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ JSW ^^^^ ^^^^ ST'er ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Wednesday, January 5, 1994 - 11:45:02 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 195 Thu Jan 06, 1994 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 00:11 EST Dan, Thanks for the help on WP and TW3. I am indeed using WP in single tasking mode. The problem is the same either way. I am beginning to wonder if my problem is a peculiarity of TOS 2.05. Has anyone else reported the problem with 2.05, I wonder? I don't say it wouldn't be worth it to upgrade to TOS 2.06 just so everything works under Geneva, but I wouldn't do it just for WordPerfect. You seem to be saying to Harvey and me that the responsibility for solving the problem of compatibility with XACC protocol lies with COMPO. While we all appreciate the immense amount of talent and work that has gone into Geneva, and I'm sure this is true of Robert at COMPO as well, it seems that something that works on TOS and MultiTOS should also work on Geneva. But I understand that now the two companies also have a commercial relationship, it is in your common interest to fix this, and obviously I have no interest in which of you does it, so long as it is done. Meanwhile, I am glad to know that I can use the accessories in single-tasking mode. It does indeed work for the accessories that matter most at least. I presume that the expected upgrade of TW3 will have solved the problem definitively. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 196 Thu Jan 06, 1994 J.RENNER1 [Kheldar] at 00:21 EST Dan and Al, Thanks for the help on the color problem. It's all fixed now. The other problem i have that we discussed is with XControl. Well, i have version 1.31, and this is the latest version i can find here on Genie. What gives? Thanks again, Jim. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 197 Thu Jan 06, 1994 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 01:01 EST Dan, (Later.) I also missed the GNVA_003.TXT file, which contained the answer to some of my questions. I was too eager to get the patch done and the files installed to notice the text file. If I had seen it, the tone of my posts would have been a little different. My apologies, and please put it down to the enthusiasm of an otherwise very happy customer. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 198 Thu Jan 06, 1994 S.AGARWAL [SANJAY] at 01:45 EST Thanks Larry, Guess I shall have to get 003 installed. Suzanne is impressed that you use Home Accounts 2 too :-) Sanjay. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 199 Thu Jan 06, 1994 P.LOUIE1 at 03:28 EST I just got Geneva but most of the programs that I use right now don't use a window. One program that I'd like most to work is a combination ARC/LZH/ZIP shell program. Does anyone know of a program that can do all three compression methods in a window (and Geneva compatible) TIA, Phil ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 200 Thu Jan 06, 1994 R.BUSH [Richard Bush] at 05:17 EST Geneva 003 is great! Thanks for making a great program better. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 201 Thu Jan 06, 1994 JRH [Roger] at 06:46 EST Al, >a lot of reordering over the months and have come up with an order that seems >to work for everything. Geneva itself is not senstive to placement (within Any possibility of letting us know what that is? Might be helpful for many of us. Roger ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 202 Thu Jan 06, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:58 EST Jeff, Well, I know that Spelling Sentry (which has a nifty abbreviation function) works just fine with G. As Mel says, CodeKeys also works perfectly, and in fact I could not work without CodeKeys. Philip, STFAX multitasks just fine, so that's not a problem. I am not a WF user, so if it m-tasks, then it should work OK; if it s-tasks, you can surely switch to it or from it easily. DynaCadd is not an app that I know anything about ('cept for Sheldon's great demos at the shows!). Yes, you can still use W9 and UISIII. HotWire, at this time, does not support multitasking, so if you use HW you cannot launch multiple apps. I am not saying this right, but I have the flu and am trying to get back in bed. :) Basically, G is much more powerful and much more flexible than anyone can imagine. Try it; you'll be very impressed. Jim, The only "problem" I have with Xcontrol 1.31 is that it shows the date in Euro format. No one else has seen this, and I have downloaded it again and reinstalled it, so somehow there is something strange here. Bill, Don't worry about missing the text. As someone who writes documentation daily, I have learned one fact of life: Nobody reads it. (I'm being serious here, but the point isn't to criticize but to point out that documentation can't be the crutch that so many of us want it to be; the program itself should be self- explanatory, as much as possible. I think Dan's done that to an amazing degree.) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 203 Thu Jan 06, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 09:40 EST Phil, ST Zip runs fine as a multitasker under Geneva, and in testing I've run THREE of them at the same time. ARC Shell also works well, in single-tasking mode, although LHARC and ARC themselves work well as TOS apps running in a TOS window under Geneva, multitasking. There's a German all-purpose shell that handles ARC, LZH, ZIP, ZOO and other formats, but it's crippleware, and I never recommend this kind of shareware. If "most of the programs" you have don't use a window, do you mean that most of them are TOS or TTP apps? Geneva runs them in a window. If they are GEM apps that were written without a proper GEM interface, G can single-task them. Roger, Here's a list, in order, of the primary files in my AUTO folder. There are others, but these are ones that are usually running. PINHEAD RERDIRECT JAR GENEVA NVDI SLCT_DEV SPDGDOS QVFIX1 CODEKEYS SMT ARTSEVNT RS31MD31 SERFX20 DC_RT-DC NEOLOAD Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 204 Thu Jan 06, 1994 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 18:24 EST Dan, I did use the install program, and I checked to see if the path is ok. This is where it is located on my drive and this is what I have in the configuration file. setenv SHOWHELP=C:\GENEVA\HELP\GNVAHELP Bad rsc file, I have replaced the rsc files and everything is fine. Wow, three D windows. ;-) Item selector, "it's in the manual" I apologise for that. I am one of those who always gets ahead of the manual. I always try to hold off my questions but sometimes I slip. :-) Al, Codekeys, The only one I didnt' buy! :-) I think I will wait till I get through the manual to see what I will be missing. Thanks. John B. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 205 Thu Jan 06, 1994 E.MONACO [DataBasement] at 20:13 EST Dan, I just bought Geneva (instead of a Jaguar) :) and its absolutely wonderful!!! I must admit I haven't "studied" the docs, just skimmed them to get started :). Right now since my alternate desktop of choice Teradesk only launchs as single task I use the task manager to run programs. It would be very useful if I could pass arguments to prgs and ttp's from the task manager. Have I missed reading if this is possible? Since the TTP I am using is fully automated, ie no text input it really won't allow for correct multitasking anyhow so I am able to multitask Teradesk and then launch the TTP with command line from there. I figure I could also run a windowed CLI and launch them from there but it would be nice to run these programs in multitasking mode. Since you distributed the Task manager code I should be able to implement it myself. You say you don't want it distributed, but if I add the code would you be willing to allow this modified release? (pending of course your approval of the coding itself.) -=Erin @DataBasement Software. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 206 Thu Jan 06, 1994 M.TERRY5 [Martin] at 20:32 EST Al- About editing resource files, etc. what I meant was; suppose you have a program you use, take "Outline Art" for instance and suppose the programmers hands were attached to a mouse since birth and they therefore felt no 'need' for keyboard equivalents. No problem- Take your 'handy dandy resource editor' and change the menu in the resource file like so: (Bad ASCII graphics to follow) |---------------------| | Amaze Me | < Original Menu | Quit | ----------------------- |---------------------| | Amaze Me ^A | < Your Keyboard equiv. simply added to menu. | Quit ^Q | Very easy and quick. ----------------------- Set the proper 'x_magic' bits using a file editor (or your RSC editor if its a good one, ORCS didn't work for me) This is the hardest part but is _not_ difficult by any means. See Geneva programming section. Or ask me how I did it. And VIOLA, after you run the program it will respond to the keyboard equivalents that _you_ decided on! Automagically done by Geneva, without so much as a burp from the program! Naturally, although the program will still show these equivalents in the menu, they _won't_ work without Geneva. But you don't have to restore the old resource file when Geneva isn't running. The editing you did is just ignored. And of course, always work with a _COPY_ of your resource files, unless of you are very comfortable with your perspective of material things. I personally find this to be a very powerful tool. Martin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 207 Thu Jan 06, 1994 S.AGARWAL [SANJAY] at 20:42 EST Well, I am pleased to confirm Larry's report that Home Accounts 2 works well with release 003. (Al, It now reliably exits HA2 _without_ crashing :-} ) Thanks, Sanjay. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 208 Thu Jan 06, 1994 B.KANTOR [Bruce] at 21:27 EST >Message 135 Sun Jan 02, 1994 >A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 12:40 EST > >Note that the submenu.cpx will let you adjust the depth of a GEM menu. The >main effect this has in G is to allow you to have a very long list in the desk >menu that does not need to be scrolled. I have mine set for 200, and am able >to get a desk menu list that drops from the top of the 1040X768 screen to the >bottom. Al, great tip! thanks so much. I just adjusted mine, and I'll never have to use the scroll arrow on my desk menu again. >Message 159 Tue Jan 04, 1994 >S.SWENA at 03:02 EST > >I can't get the sub-menus in the Lattice-C v5.52(editor 3.10) to work >at all unless I set Geneva to Atari style drop-down menus. Stanley, Thanks for solving the mystery with the sub-menus in Lattice v5.6. I'm having the same trouble and I have Geneva set to use "pull down menus". When I change to Atari style everything works okay. Regards, Bruce ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 209 Fri Jan 07, 1994 D.BOWMAN9 [>>dave b<<] at 01:00 EST hello there, Dan, This may have already been asked..does the GIF viewer Speed of light 2.6. work with Geneva? Also does Ansiterm 1.91? They both sort of switch rez's from med-->low--> back to med when you exit from them. later, dave b ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 210 Fri Jan 07, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 01:14 EST Dan - Re: the disappearing words in icons and windows after running Civilization game... while reloading the NeoDesk.INF from set preferences doesn't bring the labels back, I just noticed that if I quit NeoDesk (control Q) then run it again via Geneva, all labels (icons and in windows (file names, folder names...) return as normal! Hope this helps, cause not being a programmer, it beats the poop out of me! Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 211 Fri Jan 07, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:00 EST Flat, One example of a CodeKeys macro that is handy in the G item selector is one that I set up to delete a selected file or folder. I press "-" on the keypad and whatever is selected is zapped. Erin, GNVA_TOS, which is the TOS-in-a-window manager that is distributed with Geneva, does provide a dialog box for entry of parameters. I just flipped over from Aladdin to GNVA_TOS and tried it to make sure, and it works fine. I tried a TTP app. Martin, I'm still lost, since pressing alt-spacebar turns any GEM menu into Geneva's hotkey mode, and does just what you are talking about, without the need to edit RSC files. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 212 Fri Jan 07, 1994 P.BULLOCK2 [PETER] at 08:00 EST Dave B., Speed of light works on the TT with Geneva, altough it doesn't particularly like neodesk. With neodesk running, I lose the cursor. Peter ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 213 Fri Jan 07, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 08:24 EST I've been unsuccessful getting TOS or TTP progs to run with the Geneva TOS prg. It is bombing out on me when it tries to actually exec the TTP or TOS code. More later... --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 214 Fri Jan 07, 1994 THOMPSON2 [STYVWERX] at 10:38 EST I am a Geneva and DynaCadd user, and they don't live together happily. I either call up Hotwire, and HOTKEY the DCADD selection, or use XBOOT to run DCADD without Geneva. I've tried inserting DCADD into the Geneva Gem.cnf file as a "run" command, and had limited success. DCADD wants to take all of the memory,(I have 20m total on the TT) and leave me with a mere 32 bytes. Trying to limit the memory to a mere 5mb with the Geneva Taskman configuration setup has not been succesful. I usually end up using Hotwire, and feeling that there must be a better way. DCADD doesn't even like to give control to certain ACC's while in use, so I can see it having problems with Geneva. My fervent wish is that the user base of DCADD would justify the expense of porting all of the neat things I've been hearing about while they worked on the DOS version, to the Atari, it's native home. If any one has settings that work with DynaCadd, please post them. Thanx! ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 215 Fri Jan 07, 1994 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 10:46 EST See Flat, I've had some problems with Geneva. I get hit with that ol RECURSIVE thing on a regular basis. I don't know if it is Geneva or my ol tired Mega. All in all its worth the trouble. I just hope 003 fixes what is wrong. Otherwise it might be my Mega and that would be depressing... Geneva is a WHOLE BUNCH of fun with a Moniterm. I've got programs and menus all over the screen. I just wish there was a clipboard like on my PC that lets me move things at will. Steve ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 216 Fri Jan 07, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 12:25 EST Bruce, My pleasure. I hope to have a brief "Secrets of Geneva" ready soon. It will be confined to tips like that, since the manual does a good job of everything else. Dave B., As I recall, 003 comes with a TM flag already set up for SOL. (By the way, I just uploaded version 3.0 of SOL; give it a try!) It needs to be single- tasking, for one thing. Peter, There are at least two new GIF viewers on the way that will each make SOL look like Speed of Molasses. More, I cannot tell .... yet! Al ------------