========================================================================= (C) 1993 by Atari Corporation, GEnie, and the Atari Roundtables. May be reprinted only with this notice intact. The Atari Roundtables on GEnie are *official* information services of Atari Corporation. To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem) 800-638-8369. Upon connection type HHH (RETURN after that). Wait for the U#= prompt.Type XTX99437,GENIE and press [RETURN]. The system will prompt you for your information. ========================================================================== Category 17, Topic 19 Message 1 Wed Jun 30, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 15:22 EDT We've just uploaded the press releases to our newest software product for the Atari: GENEVA. In short, Geneva is a Multitasking Application Environment for the Atari ST, STE, TT/030, and Falcon. The press releases are: GEDESC.TXT - A brief description of GENEVA and a brief company overview. File# 29183 GENEVA.TXT - The main GENEVA news release, everything you want to know! File# 29182 GEBETA.TXT - Information on how to become a GENEVA beta tester. Gribnif Software ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 2 Mon Aug 02, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 20:05 EDT Long post warning! (I am uploading this as a library file also, so if you do not want to go through this or want to make sure you have it as a file that you can share with others, you can download it as HOWGENEV.ZIP.) Geneva'S MULTITASKING: YOU DON'T NEED ANYTHING ELSE TO ACHIEVE IT By Al Fasoldt Geneva beta tester August 2, 1993 (The author is systems editor of the Syracuse Newspapers and a syndicated columnist on consumer technology. He is the author of "Secrets of NeoDesk," "Secrets of Flash" and other texts in the "Secrets of ..." series, and has programmed for the Atari and other platforms.) Copyright (C) 1993 by Al Fasoldt. All rights reserved. (Please feel free to distribute this widely) Gribnif Software's Geneva and multitasking: Geneva itself is a multitasking environment for the Atari line of computers. It does not need any third-party software to run many tasks (programs) at the same time. This means that Geneva does NOT need any specific replacement desktop or any other specific add-on software to do its job. Period. But why, then, is there so much talk about Geneva and NeoDesk? The common misconception is that Geneva needs NeoDesk in order to multitask, and that, as I have just pointed out, is not the case. Here's the real story. By itself, Geneva is a replacement for the built-in AES in Atari computers. The AES is the Application Environment Services -- the part of the computer's operating system that handles windows, dialogs and things like that. The AES is a vital part of the operating system, and is what gives GEM -- the Atari Graphics Environment Manager -- its distinctive "look and feel." Geneva doesn't have its own built-in desktop. That's the job of another part of the operating system. Usually, the desktop is also built into the computer, just like the AES. But when you run Geneva, you have to depend on an externally loaded desktop, one that Geneva itself loads. And that's the rub. If you want Geneva to work with a desktop of any kind, you must decide whether you want the desktop to support multitasking. If it does not support multitasking, the desktop will run only ONE application at a time. Right now, the only add-on desktop that supports multitasking is the one that was developed by the same programmer who created Geneva, NeoDesk (and only NeoDesk 3.04 on up). Other desktops will support multitasking before long, but as of now, NeoDesk is the only one. Let's back up and go over this entire issue of a desktop. Can you run Geneva without a desktop? Yes, with no problem at all. Does that mean you can buy Geneva and multitask to your heart's content without owning NeoDesk? Yes, indeed. To repeat, you do not need to use NeoDesk to multitask with Geneva. But without a desktop, how can you open windows and work with file lists and click on icons and all that sort of thing? Basically, you can't do "all that sort of thing" in just that sort of way. We like desktops -- or, most of us like desktops -- because of the way they integrate the image of a real desktop with the workings of the operating system. You see the icon of a folder and click on it and it opens to reveal files; you drag an icon to another one and drop it there, and magical things happen. The Mac, the Atari and Microsoft's Windows make this sort of thing very easy and very intuitive. So how do you work with Geneva if you don't have a desktop under Geneva? You use Geneva's own menu, which is the main GEM menu when you run Geneva by itself. You choose "Open" and select an application to run. You can even select FIVE applications to run, all at the same time, from Geneva's powerful item selector. (The item selector also lets you create folders and delete files, and it has an exceptionally powerful search feature. If it had one more feature -- the ability to copy files and folders -- it would compete with the champ in this area, MaxiFile.) Or you use the Task Manager, which is a separate utility supplied with Geneva. It manages tasks, obviously; but it does much, much more, allowing you to customize Geneva in ways that can make any GEM application you run under Geneva look and behave like the best Windows application or the best Mac software. The Task Manager lets you put running programs to sleep instantly with a mouse click or a keypress. (In fact, Geneva can do that itself without the need for the Task Manager's presence, if you want to save a little memory and leave the Task Manager out). Here's a typical scenario. You boot up with Geneva and nothing else -- not even any desk accessories. Want to have the Task Manager running? Open Geneva's item selector, and click on TASKMAN. (It doesn't matter whether TASKMAN is in the file list as a program or a desk accessory; Geneva can run a desk accessory at any time, even after your computer is booted up.) Want more desk accessories? Use the item selector and run them. Want to run Atari Works? Use the item selector (or the similar command in the Task Manager) and run it. OK, now you have a bunch of desk accessories (any number -- Geneva has no limit) and Atari Works running. Need to receive a fax that is supposed to come in some time that evening? Go to the desk menu, choose Geneva, and Atari Works becomes a background application (with its windows, but not its main menu bar, still visible). Then run STraight FAX! from Geneva's menu. Set up STraight FAX! to receive a fax automatically, then go to the desk menu again and choose Atari Works. Atari Works' GEM menu bar reappears, and its windows come back to the foreground, and you can resume what you were doing in any of the three modules of Atari Works. But then you realize you'd like a little music while you are writing. Drop down the desk menu and run Paula (the mod file player) as either a program or an accessory. Paula's window appears, you select a group of mod files, and then you switch back to Atari Works; Paula keeps playing all the time, and STraight FAX! keeps watching for that fax to come in. When you have finsihed writing in Atari Works, you want to get all its GEM windows off the screen so you can play Breakout. No need to exit Atari Works -- you might want to use the database function later -- so you merely open the desk menu and hold down [Shift] while you click on the listing for Atari Works ... and Atari Works goes to sleep, its windows gone, its processor time released back to the system and its current status preserved for the moment that it is awakened. Your fax comes in, and STraight FAX! alerts you with a tone and pops itself into the foreground, saves the fax, then disappears behind the Breakout window. You return to the desk menu and click on the entry for Atari Works and is bounces back to life, returning to the exact state it was in when you gave it a sleeping pill. You do some more work, then decide to make a call with Aladdin. Things get interesting at this point. Aladdin is not on friendly terms with a multitasking system; it thinks it owns the computer, and it definitely lays claims on the standard modem port. But STraight FAX! (running on a Mega STe or TT) has an advantage; you already set up to use an alternate modem port, so Aladdin can do what it wants at the same time. (Yes, you don't need to quit STraight FAX! to run Aladdin or another telecommunications program under Geneva, as long as you have more than one serial port.) Geneva, through the Task Manager's setup, knows that Aladdin is uncooperative, so when you run Aladdin all the other applications are immeidately suspended -- put to sleep. When you are through with your call to GEnie, you go to the desk menu and click on Atari Works or STraight FAX!, and Geneva puts Aladdin to sleep while waking up the others. Is this sort of thing true? Yes. Is it easy? Definitely. Do you need NeoDesk to do this? No. Geneva does it by itself. ... But what happens if you decide to use your favorite replacement desktop under Geneva? Suppose you run HotWire; will Geneva coexist with HotWire? Of course. But will HotWire be able to launch one program and then run another while the first one is running? No. HotWire was not designed to multitask. So does that kill Geneva's multitasking? Not at all. It only means that the replacement desktop can only run one program at a time, like it always operates under the standard AES. But Geneva is still multitasking, and that means that Geneva can be running other applications at the same time as HotWire -- TWO HotWires, even, or one HotWire and one TeraDesk. You get the point. ... Much of the way Geneva works hasn't been touched on here. For example, you don't really need to go to the desk menu to switch to another application; Geneva lets you do this with a keypress. And I haven't even pointed out that Geneva lets you manipulate the windows and features of GEM programs that are running in the background, just by holding down the right button while you click and scroll with the left one. You can block off a section of text in Atari Works and save it to the clipboard with another application in the foreground, for example. And, lastly, Geneva does all this without slowing your system down with a lot of overhead. It's lean, clean and mean, and is clearly the best single piece of software for the Atari since GEM was developed nine years ago. Your computing life under Geneva is about to take a dramatic new course. Al Fasoldt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 3 Mon Sep 27, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 14:35 EDT Hows the 1.01 coming Dan? I forgot to say.... The wait for Geneva 1.01 is MMMMMMMMMMMMMUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRDER. :) Hope it ships soon. --Kevin PS. How soon will Interface be ready for official release? I'd like to see my English manual soon. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 4 Mon Sep 27, 1993 S.MILLER58 at 22:45 EDT I have noticed that when I have x-control running it changes the shading etc. of my windows... I like the way Geneva look before the change yet I cannot get the changing to stop even when I mess with the windows cpx. any suggestions? steve ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 5 Tue Sep 28, 1993 L.DOWDLE1 [Scott Dowdle] at 01:22 EDT S.MILLER58, > I cannot get the changing to stop even when I mess with the windows > cpx. any suggestions? Yes, make sure you save your options and then reboot. I'm sure if you NEED to reboot... but to get NeoDesk to recognise the change I think at the bare minimum you need to exit it and reload. I hope that works for you. TYL, Scott ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 6 Tue Sep 28, 1993 R.BROWN30 at 01:25 EDT Regarding screen color problems in Geneva: After running Compo's Studio Photo, quitting does not clear the palette or reset same to defaults. Often, especially in loading gray scale scans, the palette is turned not only shades of gray, but is INVERSED. This is where the problem lies. Returning to the desktop, or otherwise running XCONTROL.AC? (to fix the palette) locks everything up, requiring a reboot. The problem has been 100% repeatable on several attempts to date. Other prgs that mess up the palette can be fixed by XCONTROL without this lockup problem. Suggestions? I'm running release 1 bought at Glendale on a TT030 4/4. -Richard Brown ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 7 Tue Sep 28, 1993 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 01:32 EDT >A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 14:09 EDT > >Steve, > >Popit works also, but you don't need Popit, since Geneva does the same thing. >It will call up any DA onto the screen with a key combination. I've been trying to get Geneva to save the Key macros that I create without success, I'm not sure the .CNF file is even being updated. I wanted the Task Manager to be ALT/F1 and Maxifile ALT/F2. I can get it working that way fine, and then I save the settings under the options menu, but when I reboot Geneva the macros are no longer there to use. How can I get it to use the macros that I want it to use? I have the GEM.CNF in the root directory of C. Also, is there a program/DA that tells you how much memory you have left for other programs? SHOMEM doesn't seem to work. It gives me an error message something like "Doesn't recognize ver. of Tos" All in all, it's a great experience, I guess I just have to re do my thinking in regard to how my system is setup. I really miss using Hotwire, it was so easy and convenient to launch programs. Steve P.S. Has anyone else experienced MACRO HELL yet. There are a million different macros you have to remember and deal with now. And many of them seem to conflict. Does Geneva let the macros in programs take charge when you run a program? >M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 06:48 EDT > >Steve, > > You no longer need PopIt (or RegAcc) if you're using Geneva. > Just define a flag, using the Task Manager, for each desk accessory > that you wish to assign a hot key combination to, using the > "Keys"/"Read Key" buttons to define the hot key combination, "Save > Settings", and reboot. Your hot key selection will take effect after > the reboot. Geneva won't save the keys from the flag menu for me. I change the keys to what I want to use and save under the options menu but they disapear when I reboot for some reason. Any suggestions? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 8 Tue Sep 28, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 06:10 EDT Steve, >> Also, is there a program/DA that tells you how much >> memory you have left for other programs? SHOMEM doesn't >> seem to work. It gives me an error message something like >> "Doesn't recognize ver. of Tos" If you're an ST high resolution user, try using the Bermuda Corner Clock, BSPCLK.LZH (file #26800). This little desk accessory will not only give you a corner clock, but will display your remaining free RAM as well. >> Geneva won't save the keys from the flag menu for me. I >> change the keys to what I want to use and save under the >> options menu but they disapear when I reboot for some >> reason. Any suggestions? Perhaps, if I gave you an example of how I do it on my system, we could see if there's a variance between how I'm doing it and you're trying to do it. I have defined a flag for CodHead SoftWare's "MaxiFile" desk accessory that looks as follows: Name: MAXIFILE.ACC Desc: MaxiFile X Multitask Limit Window Handles Limit memory to 0 Kb Windows off left edge X Redraw upon exiting X Special object types X Rounded buttons X Automatic keyboard equivs X Undraw auto keyboard equivs Keep menu bar/desktop X AES 4.0 extended messages Keys ... MaxiFile X Activate Reserve key 1 Reserve key 2 Reserve key 3 Activation key X Control X Shift Alt Read Key = f In setting up the new "flag" for MaxiFile, the Task Manager assigns it the system's Default Flag settings which are fine. Press the "Keys..." button. Press the "Read Key" button. Press the "f" key. Then click on the Control and Shift boxes. Press the "Quit" button. Press the "OK" button. Select "Option" from the menu bar and then "Save Settings". Wait several seconds for the settings to save. Reboot. After the system reloads MAXIFILE.ACC at boot up, the macro should work fine. If it doesn't, there may be an AUTO Program or desk accessory conflict. If you try my technique and you're -still- having problems, write me back with a listing of your AUTO Folder programs, in load order, and your desk accessories and I'll see if I can spot any problems there. Good luck! ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 9 Tue Sep 28, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:56 EDT Steve, There's quite a bit that needs explaining here to reply properly to your question on the hotkeys; a lot of it is in the manual, but I'll try to go over them one by one. But that will have to wait until later today. I'm late for work. I'll get back to this ASAP. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 10 Tue Sep 28, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 17:44 EDT Richard B., That's an odd one. I'm afraid I'm going to have to try to get a copy of Photo Studio. Steve B., If you have CodeKeys macros which are time-dependent, you may have to modify them to work peroperly. Other than that, it should work fine. I suggest you use the Task Manager to define an "Activation key" for your DA's. The important thing to remember when changing flags *permanently* is that you should begin without anything selected in the main window of the Task Manager. Then, use the "Search" feature to find the correct flag. If there is not one already defined, use New to create one. Bman, Well, there was bound to be one bad disk out of all the copies we sold. I think you may be the person who called the other day and talked to Bob. If not, please just send the disk back to us and we will return it to you (with 1.01 on it!) right away. Bill N., I found the problem with cursor positioning using the mouse. I'll also try the other things you mention. Today is the last day for 1.01. Kevin, Hmmm....I just checked to make sure it wasn't a sign-extension problem and it does not seem to be. Perhaps there is an error in malloc() when a particular number is used. You might want to send me an exact code segment, because 0x9800 sign extended is 0xffff9800, which suggests that maybe you were somehow doing this (notice the "int"): int blksize; blksize = 0x9800; ptr = malloc(blksize); This would definteily not work, since "blksize" would get extended to 0xffff9800L. I'll mention that G_USERDEF problem to Shift. Interface was supposed to be done...hmmm...let's see...about 6 months ago, now. Right now we don't have time to deal with the manual, even if our $%*()&@ translator actually gets it finished tomorrow. I can't honestly say when it's going to be done at this point. We are hoping to fit it in before NeoDesk 4, though. Steve, Well, you still should not be getting that crash in the icon editor. One thing I would suggest is to look at the resource file (NEODESKM or H.RSC) and see that its date matches the one on NEODESK.EXE. If you used the 3.04 patch program, they should both be the date you patched on. What are you doing when it crashes? We always try to help as best as we can. I'm glad we got you further along than you had been. Flakes, You can purchase it directly from us for $69.95, or from dealers in the very near future. We are going to be shipping out to our distributors at the end of the week. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 11 Tue Sep 28, 1993 T.HENRY12 [Tom Jr.] at 19:36 EDT Hey all, Does Calamus SL work OK with Geneva? M-Toss makes the key bindings inoperable. This may be a problem with SL, but I'd like confirmation here, 'cause I'm interested in Geneva! Tom ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 12 Tue Sep 28, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 22:24 EDT Dan, Strangely if that is indeed my mistake (int instead of long int) then I wonder why Malloc doesn't also complain & fail? Hmm... I'll look again. Thanks. I can't wait for 1.01!!!!! I just rec'vd Warp9 3.80 for my Falcon on Monday! Yippie!!!! :) Now the painful wait for ICD Pro software to replace the sloooooow Atari HDX software. :) Then the manual & release version of Interface... What next??? :) --Kevin (back to the assembly coding... after practicing trumpet & keys with my funk band) PS. My "daytime grundge job corporation (AT&T)" has translation services available on the fly for documentation. You can call them on an 800 # and get a price quote for the xlation if you wanted to at least see how much they'd charge. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 13 Wed Sep 29, 1993 THOMPSON2 [STYVWERX] at 01:27 EDT I don't know if this problem relates to ICD, or to a Geneva connection with ICD, but I downloaded the latest Hard Drive Software,6.20, from the ICD rountable, and if I try to run HDUtil, on my TT with Geneva in place, I crash.(my computer does, too). 6.20 will not allow any of the AUTO folder programs to run on my Syquest, and after an afternoon of trying everything I could, I went back to 6.07, which works fine. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 14 Wed Sep 29, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 03:07 EDT Dan, I have tried dragging the "About" dialogue box after bringing it up from the menu bar in all possible display options. It does not drag, and it does not disappear when the mouse buttons are used one after another, and it can only be got rid of by bringing up a "Help" option from the menu bar or the task manager. It rings a bell instead. This may be a peculiarity of my system, which does fail to do some things others can do. For example, it will not print from UltraScript, and it has difficulties setting macros with That's Write, which no one else has reported. I have a Mega 4STE, TOS 2.05. If you are looking at That's Write, it might be worth checking if my problems with the macros are related to the interaction with Cardfile. If TW messes up Cardfile, perhaps Cardfile messes up TW. In fact, I have found my TW file was corrupted after running under Geneva -- severe problems with printing in graphic mode to my DeskJet -- and I had to replace the TWRITE.PRG, which cured the problem, at least while running under TOS 2.05 instead of Geneva. Best of luck with your amazing project. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 15 Wed Sep 29, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:23 EDT Steve, Dan summed up the solution to your hotkey problem. Make sure you assign hotkeys without selecting an application or desk accessory first. Also, there is a neat little clock DA that shows both ST and TT memory along with the time in the upper right; it's called the Bermuda Clock. It counts down the memory being consumed by any app, while you watch. If no one sees it here on GEnie, I'll send it up. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 16 Wed Sep 29, 1993 R.BUSH [Richard Bush] at 03:29 EDT Good grief! I just tried Geneva (and NeoDesk) on my Falcon again, after giving up on it a while ago, and got it to run in 16 color mode, but I have to give up on it again. Now it keeps telling me the disk is damaged when I try to run certain programs. If I reboot and try again it will somtimes run the program, but refuse to run others that it had been running fine. Under MTOS the programs run fine. It also sometimes refuses to delete folders, but if I reboot under MTOS they delete just fine. I hope the release version isn't so flakey. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 17 Wed Sep 29, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 07:08 EDT Dan, Were you able to get together with John Eidsvoog at the show and figure out what's causing Calligrapher to crash when trying to print while Geneva is resident? Maybe this concern is OBE. Al doesn't seem to have any problems with his later beta version (mine is v0.95) of Geneva, right Al? -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- Styvwerx, >> I don't know if this problem relates to ICD, or to a >> Geneva connection with ICD, but I downloaded the latest >> Hard Drive Software,6.20, from the ICD roundtable, and if >> I try to run HDUtil, on my TT with Geneva in place, I >> crash.(my computer does, too). This is a known problem with Geneva and the ICD Utilities. When I run mine to make adjustments to my ICDBOOT.SYS, I boot up without Geneva and they work fine. ICDBOOT itself will work fine with Geneva. (My Extensible Control Panel says I'm using v6.2.x.) -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- Al, >> Also, there is a neat little clock DA that shows both ST >> and TT memory along with the time in the upper right; >> it's called the Bermuda Clock. It counts down the memory >> being consumed by any app, while you watch. If no one >> sees it here on GEnie, I'll send it up. The Bermuda Clock has been posted in our Library - it's file #26800. I'd highly recommend it to ST high resolution Geneva users because the free RAM indicator comes in handy (does TT RAM, too). ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 18 Wed Sep 29, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 09:57 EDT Styvwerx, I know that one version, at least, of the ICD software had a conflict with Geneva (or it is the other way around; I don't mean to suggest a fault on either side). I know this has been fixed either on ICD's side or on Geneva's side, and Dan Wilga has included a flag setting for the main ICD format utility in Geneva (ICDFORMAT). The Task Manager flag settings for that program should have the first five flags OFF and the text-to-last flag OFF. Try that and see what happens. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 19 Wed Sep 29, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 10:20 EDT Richard, 1. The folder-delete problem has nothing to do with Geneva. It's occured because Atari changed the way the operating system deals with certain calls. Other apps that delete folders have the same problem with the Falcon's version of TOS. 2. What tells you the disk is damaged? The Falcon's operating system, Geneva or something else? Maybe the disk *is* damaged in some way, or the apps have been munged up. A replacement for a substantial part of the operating system, such as Geneva, is sometimes tricky to set up. Windows users have similar difficulties, as do users of the latest Mac OS. Make sure you are not running two copies of Neodesk's main code (Neodesk.exe), and be sure that the right GENEVA.CNF is being found. Look at GEM.CNF and see if it is written the way you want it to be. Mike, Cal prints OK (to GEM Spool, to the printer, and to the ST FAX driver) under Geneva, whether I have Cal in single-tasking or multitasking mode. This is on the TT. A check on the ST gave the same results. If only the Bermuda Clock had an option for 12-hour time! Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 20 Wed Sep 29, 1993 TQUINN [Terry~Sysop] at 11:14 EDT The first 200 messages or so in this topic have been archived and are available in Library 13 as file # 30197 (GENEVA_2.ARC). This archive covers the period between August 14, 1993 and September 28, 1993. Terry Quinn ST RT Sysop and BBS Janitor ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 21 Wed Sep 29, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 11:48 EDT It sounds like Richard is running into the same Falcon problems I've been having (regarding the Disk Damaged error message). My disk is most definitely NOT damaged tho'. Dan, I just looked at the code. I was doing long int blksize; int *ptr; blksize = 0x9800; ptr = malloc(blksize); When I use Malloc it works fine, using malloc seems to return a bogus pointer that is definitely not NULL. Hmm... I'll try switching back to malloc later... --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 22 Wed Sep 29, 1993 S.MILLER58 at 22:30 EDT Hello, it's me again. I am running into the problem of having the dialog boxes from the taskman acc. staying on the screen. The button is pressed (cancel or ok) and the button remains depressed but the window stays? Anyone run into this porblem? Also I have run into the previously mentioned problem with Studio Photo every time I mess with a greyscale just like the guy previously mentioned. thanks. Steve ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 23 Thu Sep 30, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 01:12 EDT Aha, Richard Bush seems to have the same problem I've been having on my 14 meg Falcon! --Kevin (I'm not going crazy...) ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 24 Thu Sep 30, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 06:35 EDT Al, >> Cal prints OK (to GEM Spool, to the printer, and to the >> ST FAX driver) under Geneva, whether I have Cal in >> single-tasking or multitasking mode. This is on the TT. A >> check on the ST gave the same results. I'm looking forward to receving the latest release of Geneva, especially for that reason. I'm still using Beta v0.95 and having to reboot to a Geneva-less system whenever I want to use Calligrapher and print (which I find a nuisance). I hope the new Geneva arrives within this next week. >> If only the Bermuda Clock had an option for 12-hour time! Amen to that! I'd like that, too. ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 25 Fri Oct 01, 1993 AEO.1 [Albert Dayes] at 00:43 EDT I am wondering if there is a help compiler if one wants to make GENEVA specific on-line help. Any comments on this??? For example if someone wrote a program specifically with Geneva in mind and then wrote some on-line help to use with his program. -- Albert Dayes @ ATari Explorer Online ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 26 Fri Oct 01, 1993 T.HEBEL [Spud Boy] at 01:11 EDT Hey Dan, Any luck with getting those Cubase Folks to help you? I would really like to use Geneva with Cubase. I would not Multi-Task (mainly because I think Cubase is already trying to do too much at once) but I hate booting without Geneva. Mike, I can print under Calligrapher and Geneva on my TT with no problems. (Geneva .95 Calligrapher 3) ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 27 Sat Oct 02, 1993 T.GIRSCH [TJ @ S-Mart] at 02:41 EDT Albert- I seem to remember seeing a file called "MAKEHELP.TTP" but I'm not quite sure what it does... - T.J. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 28 Sat Oct 02, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:49 EDT Makehelp.ttp is explained somewhere in the beta docs.... Let me look... Hmm, no clue, except that it appearently is related to Pure C help files. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 29 Sat Oct 02, 1993 J.SAFFER [JASON SAFFER] at 16:31 EDT I'm confused....can I use Hotwire with Geneva or not? I think I'm reading different opinions on this. What's the real story? - Jason Saffer Hercules, California Saturday, October 2, 1993 12:58 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 30 Sun Oct 03, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 00:32 EDT Jason, It depends what you want to do with Hotwire. It will not, until updated, launch programs in multi-tasking mode. However, for single taskers it works just as well as Geneva/Neodesk. I have an active icon for Hotwire on my Neodesk screen, and if I want the features of Hotwire -- and there are still some that Neo does not duplicate -- I run it, and find it is multitasking with Neodesk, so that I can switch back with a mouseclick. Also, I retain the extra desk accessories I have loaded from Geneva/Neodesk. So I come close to having the best of both worlds. If the Codeheads will make Hotwire fully Geneva compatible soon, we really will have the best of both worlds. I would like that. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 31 Sun Oct 03, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 01:30 EDT I have just discovered that my demo of the new Marcel wordprocessing program does not work under Geneva/Neodesk. It exits at once with error #7. It still works okay under TOS 2.05. No big deal for me, but it may be for someone else. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 32 Sun Oct 03, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 10:34 EDT Jason, What Bill said is correct. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 33 Sun Oct 03, 1993 AEO.1 [Albert Dayes] at 12:36 EDT Al and TJ, I have Pure C but I didn't think the help files or the help compiler were compatible with Geneva. I don't think makehelp.ttp is on the v1.x distribution disk either. -- Albert ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 34 Tue Oct 05, 1993 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 00:34 EDT Hello Out there.... When using Atariworks with Geneva, and when trying to create a field in the data base section, I'm not able to name the field for some reason. I get the UNTITLED fieldname. When I try to erase it (esc or Delete or Backspace) to name it what I want, the cursor just overwrites the UNTITLED (without overwriting the words) , which makes for a mess. This doesnt happen outside of Geneva though. I've been playing around a lot with it so I must have changed something. Any Ideas ? M.SQUIRE Thanks for that excelent response, I'm going to print it and see if it works. Unless I'm missing something, it seems that I'm saving it exactly how you have explained it. Thanks for the help, I'll get back to you. Steve ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 35 Tue Oct 05, 1993 VORTEXT at 00:40 EDT Logging back in, now that I have Geneva. Now if I could just get it working. I have a TT with a 2/16 meg split. I try to run Calamus SL and it tells me not enough memory. I know there's going to be a lot to get orginized, I just hope I can. I use X-boot, Geneva and Jar10 run right after it, then all the other acc's and auto prgs. Oh well. Here's to late nights. Daniel ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 36 Tue Oct 05, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:38 EDT Daniel, Run Jar before Geneva, and check to see if Calamus is running in ST RAM. If it is, it cold well be out of memory at 2 megs, esp. if Geneva is running in ST RAM. Run G out of TT RAM to get more memory and to run things faster. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 37 Tue Oct 05, 1993 O-ZONE [Flakes] at 19:07 EDT I guess I'll come to see you demo Geneva at the BCS Atari users group meetingon the 13th. I assume the program will be for sale there? Perhaps at a special introductory price? That would be nice. ~:^)X ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 38 Tue Oct 05, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 23:03 EDT Daniel, Al is correct here. _If_ SL is being run in ST RAM, you will definitely not have enough memory to run both Geneva and Calamus SL. While my machine is being upgraded I am using a 2 meg machine and I can't run both of them together. SL is a powerful program and requires a bunch of RAM to be used effectively. I don't know much about the TT, but if you run it from TT RAM, your 16 megs should be plenty for both. Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 39 Tue Oct 05, 1993 B.AEIN [B Man] at 23:19 EDT Gribnif, Is my Geneva in the mail yet?? Bman ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 40 Wed Oct 06, 1993 THOMPSON2 [STYVWERX] at 02:27 EDT I have Geneva 0.95, and I keep reading about 1.01 on this thread. How does a registered 0.95 user get uplifted. This is THE definitive Atari program, by the way. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 41 Wed Oct 06, 1993 R.WATSON28 [sloon] at 18:02 EDT Dear Al, Demigod of all that is documentation and expert on all that is Magic and now Geneva, Is it possible, using MDISK694 (#28247), to simultaneously copy from one Ram Disk to floppy while copying from the hard disk to the other Ram Disk? I have tried it but each MDISK seems to take over the system, even when both are set for multitasking. Possibly I am missing something so any assistance would be appreciated. Rob ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 42 Wed Oct 06, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 20:14 EDT Bman, I received by release copy of G yesterday, so yours may be winging it your direction, too. Great job in the release version. Nice manual, too! :) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 43 Wed Oct 06, 1993 DMJ [dmj] at 23:22 EDT Al: Yes, the Geneva manual _is_ nice. I'd say it's one of the nicest looking manuals I've seen in quite some time, and the text was easy to read. Not too technical (except where it was supposed to be) but also not too simplistic. Just right. -dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 44 Thu Oct 07, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:21 EDT Rob, Geneva shares the situation that Windows finds itself in: Applications that were written solely with single-tasking in mind often will not give back any processor time when they are running, and the result is a splendid lack of cooperation in Cooperative Multitasking. Other applications - usually, but not always, apps that were written more recently - have the grace to give the processor back CPU cycles back every now and then. Obviously, there are also apps that cooperate perfectly, taking processor time only when absolutely necessary. I haven't tried MDISK in while, so I can't speak directly about it, but I can tell you that most disk- and file-copying software in the PC, Mac and TOS worlds do not share the OS very well with other simultaneously running applications. There are prominent exceptions - an excellent background disk formatter for the ST and TT, for example, named FORMATX, which does its thing while all other processes are going on, and some likewise well behaved copy and format software for Windows. You'll note a little essay I wrote on cooperate multitasking in the Geneva manual. I longer description would be a good idea, and maybe I'll tackle that soon. Basically, cooperative multitasking requires good behavior on the part of all multitasking applications - not perfect behavior (Geneva can handle the range of small misbehaviors just fine), but just good behavior. When you come across an app that behaves well except when multitasking, and no amount of twiddling with the flags will change its proclivities, you can bet that it was not written with any sort of shared responsibilities in mind. You may have better luck with TOS and TTP copying software, if they run well under the TOS-in-a-window app that Geneva includes. However, my feeling is that most of those will take over the machine during the actual copying operation. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 45 Thu Oct 07, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 06:51 EDT Al, >> I received my release copy of G yesterday, so yours may >> be winging it your direction, too. That -is- good news. Thanks for the heads up. ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 46 Thu Oct 07, 1993 B.AEIN [B Man] at 20:56 EDT Gribnif, I bought Geneva at Glendale so I could use it! IF I don't get my disk before Toad is selling them, I will want a refund, as I can get it cheaper and I had to wait for it anyways!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry to be so demanding, but I did pay full price for something I am not using. Bman ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 47 Fri Oct 08, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:22 EDT Thanks, Damien. The manual was a joy to create. Being enthusiastic about G helped ... as did the fact that I could switch back and forth from Calligrapher to any other app instantly when trying to explain various aspects of Geneva. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 48 Fri Oct 08, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 18:51 EDT Bman, Gribnif isn't Microsoft, and it's doing the best that it can to fill orders. The Geneva package weighs about 40 pounds and comes in a big box. (OK, so maybe it's a little lighter than that....) Also, Dan's been getting the cobwebs out of his mind down at Dizzy World this week Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 49 Fri Oct 08, 1993 B.AEIN [B Man] at 23:14 EDT Sorry Al, but I paid full price for the package and I can't even use it! If I wanted to wait I would have saved some money, But no, I decided to splurge and I still have to wait. Would you like Neodesk taken from you for a month? I would like to point out that I did not have an "order" I had the whole package but the register prg would bomb, so no go. I sure hope Gribnif gets my disk back soon Bman ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 50 Fri Oct 08, 1993 JLHOFFMAN [John Hoffman] at 23:19 EDT HELP!! I got geneva today and eagerly read all the readme files. Seeing that the instructions said to delete all the old files I did so. Then I rebooted my system only running gem on my Mega ST4 with tos 1.4. Then after copying the geneva disk I ran the install program. After the first screen I hit return. Then a couple of moments later I saw two bombs appear which was quickly covered with a new dialog. Hmmm, I didn't know if I really had a problem so I continued with the installation. Everything proceeded as expected. After completing the install I rebooted. Then I recieved the message on bootup that geneva wasn't registared. The message said to run the registar program on the geneva disk. I ran this program and got two bombs. :( I was very sad... I tried various configs for my system. Nothing would get that program to run correctly. I ran off my copy and the original with no difference. I'm I the only one with this problem? Do I have a bad disk? The old beta version worked great but now I'm stuck. John ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 51 Fri Oct 08, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 23:27 EDT Al, Didn't know you did the manual. I haven't received my release copy yet, but knowing you wrote 'the book' I look forward to it even more! As I was rather late in getting .95, I guess I will have to be patient a while longer. But Al... 40 lbs.??!!?? :-) Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 52 Sat Oct 09, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:23 EDT John Hoffman and Bman, The register program bombed repeatedly here, too, until I tried running it under an earlier version of Geneva. (I had started up in TOS mode.) Keep at it, John. It will run OK if you keep trying. You can't just copy the files over to the hard drive and run them, since the register program unlocks the application for you. Bman, would I like NeoDesk taken from me or a month? Well, since murder is illegal, I'll just avoid answering. :) Al BTW, whenever ANY application software tells you to delete any old files, ALWAYS make copies of them in another folder first. You risk being stuck without the old and without the new if the installation fails. Backups are vital. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 53 Sat Oct 09, 1993 DMJ [dmj] at 12:19 EDT A friend of mine called me yesterday telling me he couldn't get the register program for Geneva 1.01 to run (3 bombs) on a _bare_ system. He was sorta twirked at having to settle for 0.95 while the disk went back to Gribnif... Looks like he's not alone. -dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 54 Sat Oct 09, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 19:25 EDT Damien, The register program is unduly sensitive, but mine did finally behave after quite a few tries. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 55 Sat Oct 09, 1993 DMJ [dmj] at 23:04 EDT Al: Mike Parrott told me he ran it on a BARE system, every other way he could think of, and... no luck. *Sigh* -dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 56 Sat Oct 09, 1993 R.PLAGGENBUR [Ralph / WA] at 23:22 EDT B Man Good things come to those who don't bitch :-) I received Geneva back in Augest and my .95 didn't work. I received the first mail out of 1.01 (Priorty mail) and the regester pgm bombed! I made one phone call ( daytime - my cost! ) and a new disk was sent that day along with a follow up phone call to inform me of the fact. I paid about 2 months ago and still haven't been able to use Geneva and I'm happy as a lark! Hang in there, you may need free advice or something from Gribnif some day... Ralph ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 57 Sun Oct 10, 1993 W.TURCZYNSK1 [Bill] at 00:21 EDT Dan: Has the finished Geneva been sent to all the Beta version owners yet? Is there a finished version?? I wonder because I haven't received anything yet. Of course, if the problem with Cubase hasn't been corrected, Geneva won't be of much use to me. Did Steinberg/Jones ever come through with a copy? It did leave Email for Wolgang Kundrus on CIS for help in the matter when you mentioned that they weren't responding. [Bill] ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 58 Sun Oct 10, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 10:42 EDT Damien, I spent two hours trying everything I could think of to get the install program to work, including making backup copies of the installation disk, and finally got it to BEGIN to work when I ran the install program from a hard drive directory. Then I went back to the original floppy and all was well. A mystery. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 59 Sun Oct 10, 1993 M.STEFANI [MCH] at 13:34 EDT Hi! I haven't visited this topic for a while, but I continue to hear about Geneva... Geneva... Geneva... Is this multitasking application now available? If not, is there some kind of scheduled release date? Thanks, - Mark ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 60 Sun Oct 10, 1993 T.FITZPATRI8 [Tom] at 14:29 EDT I received the release version on Saturday, and I'm happy to say the program is FANTASTIC. A few other comments: o the shipping box--I'm all for recycling, and I applaud your decision to ship second day mail, but did you have to use *that* box? o the manual--D-ring, indexed, nice! o registration/installation--I, too, had trouble. The installation program does *not* automatically run the registration program as advertised, and if you answer the question about "do you own NeoDesk3" no, the program ends without comment. o the file selector--it's cleaner, more focused, and generally much improved. Thanks! o Geneva TOS--feature-filled! but one bug. It works okay as a drag-and- drop, but when I double-click on a TTP program I'm rewarded with an error -33. o Quitting--The bad news is, I can't seem to quit this release version and return to the built-in desktop. The good news is, the programs which crashed .95 and required that I leave Geneva first now seem to work like a charm under this release! That's a compromise I'm willing to live with. :) So far, so good... Tom ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 61 Sun Oct 10, 1993 J.WILES1 at 14:58 EDT Al, A few questions from a beta .95 owner to someone with the newest version: 1.) Is version 1.01 now shipping to registered owners or is it still on hold? 2.) Does the latest version allow use of ICD utilities? With version .95, the booter works but loading any of the utilities bombs the system. 3.) Is the TOS window part of Geneva working? 4.) Is the Limit Memory working? Any other new feature updates would also be appreciated. Jeff PS Geneva has been running on my setup since mid July and I can't believe how lost I am if I happen to boot without it. It really has brought new life to my STe. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 62 Sun Oct 10, 1993 GENIELAMP.ST [John G] at 22:42 EDT You know, I still have the darned problem with setting Speedo fonts in Geneva! No matter, since I use the system font anyway. The Help program will correctly show only the monospace Speedo fonts I have (plus the System font), but the 'Tasks' accessory will only show the System font. Other than that, I'm as happy as I could be - the program far exceeds the description 'Excellent' and the manual is a work of art (kudos Al and Dan!) John Gniewkowski Editor, GEnieLamp ST ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 63 Sun Oct 10, 1993 AEO.5 [Ed Krimen] at 22:59 EDT Those of you having memory problems with Calamus SL with Geneva, make sure you increase the memory limit on CALAMUS.PRG in the Task Manager. It defaults to 1meg. Dan, perhaps this should be changed to a default of 2megs. BTW, excellent job on the manual, Al and Dan! I've only scanned it so far, but it looks very well done! ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 64 Mon Oct 11, 1993 GRIBNIF-1 at 20:42 EDT IMPORTANT If you currently have a beta version of Geneva and receive the 1.01 update in the mail, you MUST run REGISTER.PRG or INSTALL.PRG (the first time) from the beta version of Geneva. If you try to run either of these without Geneva, you will get a crash because the REGISTER.RSC was accidentally written in a format that only Geneva can understand. If you have already deleted all of the Geneva files from your system, just do this: 1. Insert your original Geneva 0.95 disk into drive A:. 2. Open the GENEVA folder on the disk. 3. Run GENEVA.PRG. 4. Click past the "WINNI not found" alert. 5. Use the Open option in the File menu to run INSTALL.PRG on the Geneva 1.01 disk. I'm really sorry about this problem. I'm still not even sure why the resource editor decided to write it in this format in the first place. I will be posting a patch program to go to version 1.01 from 1.00 later this week. John G., As the documentation (and even the dialog) state, the Task Manager will only allow Speedo fonts that have characters for all 255 values in the ASCII character set. Since none of the monospaced fonts that come with Speedo do, (the lower 32 characters are used in window gadgets) you cannot use these fonts. I actually plan to do a character translation in a future version of Geneva which will try to achieve a "best fit" for these characters, so that you will be able to use the Speedo fonts. Jeff Wiles, The answer to all of your questions is "yes"! Tom F., The box was available cheaply. What's wrong with Vaseline Intensive Care? Um, the INSTALL.PRG does run REGISTER.PRG if it's there. I've tested it several times. I will definitely check on the "do you own Neo 3" question, but considering the way the script is written, I don't see how that could cause problems either. Maybe your INSTALL.SCR is somehow corrupted? If you are having problems with GNVA_TOS, you should check to make sure that the TOSRUN variable in GEM.CNF contains the full path of GNVA_TOS.PRG. The one in the GENEVA folder does not, by default, but the one written by INSTALL.PRG does. Of course, since you were having problems with this, this may be the reason... Let me know what things look like and I will try to help. Depending on what you are running, you may or may not be able to quit Geneva when it has been run from the AUTO folder. The new version should be much better in this area, though. Bill T., Yours went out this morning by UPS. We haven't heard anything from Cubase. Sigh. BMan, We did send you out another disk, as far as I can tell. Since you haven't yet gotten it, I'm going to send you another one, with version 1.01. By the way, Toad has not been shipped their Genevas yet . That's just how backed-up we are right now. We're going as fast as we can. Daniel, There is a default program flag set up for CALAMUS.PRG which limits memory. This was intended for Calamus 1.09, but ends up having the same effect for SL. You can change this by using the Task Manager. Make sure there are not any programs selected in the list, and press "Next" until you get to Calamus. Then, either change the memory limit to something larger or turn the feature off. Be sure to Save Settings. Steve Blackburn, The problem with entering fields in Atari Works has been fixed for 1.01. Bill, Re: Marcel. That sounds like the infamous Prospero problem. This has been fixed for Geneva 1.0x. Albert, The final version includes MAKEHELP, which will compile help files for use with Geneva. It is in the PROGRAM\MAKEHELP folder. You can also use Pure C help files, generated with HC.TTP. In fact, GNVAHELP can even read the help files that come with Pure C! Spud Boy, Nothing from Cubase yet, no. Kevin, Your code should work fine. I even checked to be sure that the 0x9800 was getting properly sign-extended to 0x00009800L. I dunno. Mike, The Calligrapher problem seems to be cleared up by Geneva 1.0x. Kevin & R.Bush, The text of the alert which says that the disk may be damaged is very misleading, and has actually been changed to be more descriptive of what's really going on for 1.0x. However, there is no good reason for getting the error -1's in the first place. I have also seen this happen after changing rez several times, but only on the Falcon. I am going to look at this a little further. R. Bush, The problem with deleting folders is due to a bug in the Falcon's version of TOS. You should be able to delete folders from most programs, but NeoDesk just happens to do it in a way that just happens to be broken for the Falcon's version of TOS. In the meantime, you can try using a different program (or the Geneva 1.00 item selector). Atari has been made aware of this problem. Styvwerx, There is a problem with using any of the ICD configuration programs (HDUTIL, HDFMT) with Geneva 0.95. This has been fixed for 1.00/1.01. The actual HD software, once in place, does work with Geneva though. Tom, ISD has a copy of Geneva. I don't (yet) have a copy of SL, though. Can anyone else comment on this? Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 65 Mon Oct 11, 1993 J.WISNIEWSK2 [Jeff - ST'er] at 23:54 EDT Has anybody found the conflict between Abbreviator and Geneva yet?. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ JSW ^^^^ ^^^^ ST'er ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Monday, October 11, 1993 - 9:58:26 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 66 Tue Oct 12, 1993 T.CARMAN [Tom Carman] at 03:09 EDT Dan, I notice in message 64 you state that the `Calligrapher problem' seems to be cleared up by Geneva 1.0x. I'm not sure whether you are referring to problems PRINTING with Calligrapher, but as I am one of the people who reported a problem with this perhaps I should respond. I have found that Calligrapher prints about as consistently under Geneva as it does under TOS. Where I have had problems is when I have tried to print from Calligrapher with the NeoDesk Control panel from version 3.04 loaded. When it is loaded Calligrapher will bomb immediately after selecting the `Print' command from the File menu. This happens whether Geneva is loaded or not. The only other problems I have had in conjunction with Calligrapher and Geneva are as a result of trying to limit Calligrapher's memory usage through the CalSetup program. If I set the memory limit to anything less than 75% I will get bombs when trying to print to the Atari SLM 804. I have noticed that this problem does not occur when I print a Postscript file to disk, or when I use the Canon Bubblejet driver. This makes me suspect that the SLM 804 printer driver is the culprit and not Calligrapher itself or Geneva. I also find that with the memory set to anything less than 90% Calligrapher will print the first document fine but will bomb when attempting to print a second document to the SLM 804. Looks like the SLM 804 printer driver is not releasing memory properly or something. I had also reported shortly after receiving the beta version a problem with cutting and pasting between Calligrapher and Spiritware's Concordance program (version 3). Well, I'm not sure what I did but it is now working consistently without problem. I do have to load Calligrapher first and then Concordance (with Calligrapher set for 75% memory in the CalSetup program) or I am left without enough memory to load Calligrapher, but I assume that once I receive the release version of Geneva I will be able to limit the memory of Concordance.prg. Well, that's all I have to report for now. Anxiously awaiting version 1.01. Perhaps you could check to make sure my copy has gone out OK, as you may remember my original order got lost and my name had somehow gotten dropped from the registered Neodesk users' database. I'm sure everything is probably fine and that Geneva 1.01 is winging it's way to my doorstep at this very moment, but I can't help but wonder, with the frantic pace of life around Gribnif Headquarters these days, whether something might have happened again. Perhaps you could check, just to set my mind at ease. My name as it appears on the Geneva info screen is `Tom Carman'. Under the NeoDesk info screen it appears as `The Rev. Tom Carman'. Thanks! Multitasking in Canada, Tom Carman P.S. I had a chance to try out MultiTOS the other day. What a memory hog! It was slow too. I'll stick with Geneva. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 67 Tue Oct 12, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:48 EDT Mark, Yes, Geneva is available now. Tom, If you get error 33 (file not found?), you may have a PATH problem. Look at your GEM.CNF and make sure the PATH statement includes a bare comma, for one thing. The manual is real good on this point; I had to wring it out quite a bit to make sure I had it right. Jeff, My version is Release 002 of Sept. 29. (Sorry, that's all it says.) TOS-in-a-window is working. I still get bombs with some of the ICD stuff, but I don't know how its connected with Geneva. Sometimes one of the utils will bombs and sometimes not. I am not using the limit memory function in any of the flag settings at this time, so I can't say that it is fixed yet. I searched the two readme files that I have and found no reference to the memory limit situation, although I recall reading a note from Dan about the current status somewhere. John & Ed, Thanks for the kind words. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 68 Tue Oct 12, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 09:30 EDT I'm still waiting for my copy of Geneva 1.01 to arrive in the mail. Maybe I'll get it today, since there was no mail on Columbus Day. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 69 Tue Oct 12, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 12:09 EDT Was yesterday Columbus day? No wonder I didn't get anything from ICD or Gribnif. Keeping my fingers crossed for today! --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 70 Tue Oct 12, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 18:57 EDT Rev. Tom, We have Rev. Stu Lyster here also. I was a Rev. once many years back; now I'm a journalist. Wonder who many other revs are Atarians? Topic cops: Bless you for not deleting this. :) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 71 Tue Oct 12, 1993 J.WILES1 at 22:25 EDT Dan, Sure enough, as soon as I questioned whether the release version was shipping to beta testers, what appears on my doorstep but a case of Vaseline Intensive Care......I mean Geneva 1.01. If nothing else, it sure is a great way to sneak new software past the wife. I thought version .95 was great but you have really been busy the past couple of months as 1.01 shows. Although I haven't had time to check everything out, so far things are running VERY smoothly. A couple of suggestions: 1) A way to somehow import flags for programs when upgrading instead of manually installing them again. 2) An END button in the flags portion of the task manager. The FIND button is a improvement but when I'm setting up new program flags - loading the program to see how it runs - going back to TASK Manger - adjusting flags - etc., it would be much easier to press END and jump to the last program(which is the one I'm working on) instead of using FIND and having to type in the exact program name. If I doing this in a round about way, let me know. BTW, it's nice to hear that Atari software developers are busy filling orders. What's good for you is good for all of us. Al, Haven't had time to read through the whole manual yet but from what I've read so far, you did an excellent job. It's not often that I don't mind reading the manual. Jeff ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 72 Tue Oct 12, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 23:14 EDT Gee... sure hope _my_ copy shows up soon. ;-) Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 73 Tue Oct 12, 1993 R.PLAGGENBUR [Ralph / WA] at 23:27 EDT Hi there, I left E-mail for Dan, but I forgot to add the following. I mentioned to him that when I boot up I receive a message saying "Incompatible Geneva.CNF version" and the only selector box says Cancel. After hitting Cancel (only choice) I do get the Neodesk desktop, But upon hitting anything, I lock-up with 2 bombs..dead. Ralph Whose smile is fading :-| ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 74 Wed Oct 13, 1993 R.PLAGGENBUR [Ralph / WA] at 00:03 EDT When in doubt leave a message asking for help, and sure enough you will figure out and fix everything. OK well maybe just one thing...Under About Geneva mine says release 002 Everything else is OK PS :-) Ralph ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 75 Wed Oct 13, 1993 G.KICHOK [Gerry K] at 01:37 EDT My GENEVA update arrived today!!! Notes: I was also ONLY able to register my GENEVA v1.01 'update' package while running GENEVA v0.95 . The Manual has to be one of the BEST I have every seen. The install program did NOT put the SETMOUSE folder and it's contents on my hard drive, maybe it's in the manual somewhere . . . I couldn't find anything after a quick glance, but I'm still reading. Tom, Some nice comments. Did you get one of those Vaseline boxes too? The installation program _is_ very easy to use. Last Edited on 13/October/93 at 00:33 hrs Gerry Kichok Crazy Rides Software ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 76 Wed Oct 13, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 01:53 EDT Al, I am also a former "Rev.", though not since the sixties. Since then until retirement I have been a full time academic, with a rather critical though not negative attitude to religion. To stay on topic, I am looking forward with great anticipation to getting Geneva 1.01, and your famed manual. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 77 Wed Oct 13, 1993 T.HEBEL [Spud Boy] at 02:50 EDT I got my Geneva a couple of days ago. One thing I noticed is that my hourglass is no longer animated. Waaaahhh, I liked the spinning hourglass :( ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 78 Wed Oct 13, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:34 EDT Jeff, One of the lesser known advantages of Geneva is its handling of desk accessories. Besides the removal of the six-DA limit, Geneva keeps desk accessories and GEM dialogs on the screen when you run applications. This means you can leave the dialog for the Flag settings right where it is (you don't even need to close it to save the Task Manager's settings); when you run the app and return to the Task Manager, you'll have it ready right at the spot you left it. Ralph-whose-smile (etc.), Run Geneva without any CNF at all and see if it loads OK. Then save the configuration. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 79 Wed Oct 13, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 09:12 EDT Thanks for the info, ex-Rev. Bill. It's Gribnif's famed manual, and all I did was disappear for a week on Cape Cod while Dan Wilga had two heart attacks awaiting the final draft... Spud, You can restore or create any animated mouse shape. Download Charles Johnson's excellent Mouse K-Mania utility. It has oodles of shapes, many animated, and they are the basis for the mouse.dat info that Setmouse uses. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 80 Thu Oct 14, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 00:04 EDT The Vaseline Intensive Care box arrived today here in Vancouver. Installing it under Geneva 0.95 was no problem, apart from some operator errors. I have only scratched the surface so far, but it appears that my two wordprocessing programs, That's Write and WordPerfect, can now work. However, there is still a major incompatibility between Cardfile and That's Write. It now takes quite a different form. This time it seems that Cardfile is causing problems with That's Write. It will send fairly well, though some text, i.e. part of a postal code, is lost, but thereafter the mouse pointer of TW is lost, or if found will not operate except by ringing a bell, so that it is not possible to use the mouse even to quit the program. This applies if the flags for TW are set to make it single task as before, though it seems as if it might work in multi-tasking mode provided Cardfile is not used. Cardfile does not send at all if TW is left with the default flags. Pressing the right button writes an x on the screen. I found this by trying everything when Cardfile would not do what it was supposed to. TW's macro editor also no longer works. It sends up a notice saying it requires versions 1.3 or later, and will not work with a demo. However, I have v. 2.8. I did not have this problem under v.0.95, unless I never came across it, because I quickly found it less annoying to use TW under TOS. Once I have attempted to invoke the macro editor, the mouse again refuses to work properly, as with Cardfile. The Keyshow accessory does work, but after it has been used I cannot use the mouse to quit TW, and have to terminate it from the task manager. (I am also having problems with an early version of Harlekin accessory that I got from a British magazine, but much of this may be due to Harlekin. However, I did get it to work under TOS 2.05.) The main problem I had with TW under the beta version was with the mouse. This does seem to have been cured. It is worth noting that TW's accessories are written in a special way to communicate with the program itself, and this may be the cause of the trouble. Do you have a copy of That's Write 3, which is now ready, and to which I expect to upgrade shortly? Another accessory that newly gives trouble is Cal. 6.3a. Previously it would write two initial capitals instead of one. Now only the first letter appears when entering text into the slot for new entries, but if you ignore this and type on without seeing what you are typing the text does appear when you press Add. I did get 11 bombs when trying to save after trying to see my text entry. However, this did not happen when I accepted that I would not be able to see the text as I typed it in. Flash 2.11 now handles its windows much better, indeed almost perfectly, though there is a small bit missing at the bottom. It should still single task, I think, though. The only oddity I have run across in Geneva itself so far is that the window in which Geneva itself runs sometimes wraps incorrectly on boot-up -- indeed more often than not. I have installed WRAPFIX.PRG in my auto folder, which seems to cure the problem. This is the first program I have yet found which needs the fix on my MSTE 4, TOS 2.05. Oh, I also get a notice on boot-up that Process Neodesk cannot be found, and that there is no file of that name. However, after a pause, Neodesk does come up. I have it entered as shell in my GEM.CNF file. So far, so good, with the exceptions noted. Thanks again. No doubt we shall find more stuff to cure as time goes on. But already it's a fantastic program. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 81 Thu Oct 14, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 00:29 EDT Al, Shame on you, disappearing on the Cape and causing that poor man not one, but two heart attacks! Still awaiting, but looking forward to the new version, Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 82 Thu Oct 14, 1993 T.CARMAN [Tom Carman] at 01:12 EDT Al, Thanks for your little `off-topic' reply. It's nice to know a bit more about each other than just names. It makes this more personal. I thought I remembered seeing Ken Vandellen make some comment about doing Church newsletters on his ST, so perhaps he is another `Rev.', although my memory could be faulty. Ken? BTW another clergy friend of mine here in Calgary is an Atarian and just bought a Falcon. I'm having to remind myself of the commandment, `Thou shalt not covet'. I wonder, since I know you are also a Calligrapher user, whether you have experienced any of the problems I note in combination with the Neodesk Control panel and memory mismanagement when printing to an SLM 804? Of course, if you do not have this printer you may not have experienced the latter problem. Anyone else out there having either of these problems, please chip in! Bill Nicholls, Churches can be torturous for clergy sometimes and so rewarding at others. I guess that's the risk of leadership. Look what they did to Jesus. Hope you came out with your faith intact. Blessings on you O Faithful Sysop! I promise not to keep this off topic thread going. A little diversion now and then does the soul good, though. (The Rev.) Tom Carman ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 83 Thu Oct 14, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:24 EDT Tom, Thou shalt not covet, but thou canst admire! Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 84 Thu Oct 14, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 12:24 EDT Ralph, Make sure that you delete the old GENEVA.CNF from the root directory of the disk you boot from (probably C:). This file is now instead written to the GENEVA folder by the INSTALL program, though the root directory will be searched first. Jeff Wiles, I've been considering much better ways to do the whole flag setting procedure. It could stand to get a drastic overhaul. You can, techinically, take your old flags into the new GENEVA.CNF with a text editor. You just have to make sure you change the number which appears on the line before the "Default" flags line to reflect the total number of flags lines appearing below it. Once this is done, you will also have to manually change the "Maximize window areas" flag for each flag you imported from the old version, since this flag was not used in 0.95. Rev. Carman, Hm. I was under the impression that the NeoDesk Control Panel/Calligrapher problem happened only under Geneva. I will have to send an email message to the Codeheads to have them try this out again, as we do not have Calligrapher here. The version 1.01 is definitely on its way to you. We shipped the last few copies out on Tuesday. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 85 Thu Oct 14, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 13:00 EDT Bill N., I'm going to have to try some of the things you mentioned offline. There are truly some wierd things going on there. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 86 Thu Oct 14, 1993 O-ZONE [Flakes] at 15:48 EDT I am having a bit of trouble getting the "help" function to work. All the files are in the right places although when I ran the install program it never asked my what disc I wanted to run from, it installed on A then I just copied everything according to where they should be as described in the manual to drive C. When I try to call up "help" I get the message: "Process GNVAHELP exited with status #-33 (there is no file with this name)." I should point out that I am running my system almost bare bones. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 87 Thu Oct 14, 1993 B.AEIN [B Man] at 18:16 EDT 1. Geneva says genvhlp is not found when I try to get help. 2. I am not getting any shading in the gadget boxs, there for I am not getting the 3D look, what is wrong? 3. How do I get rid of that title underline as it is very annoying? 4. How do I replace the file selector in Geneva? 5. There seems to be a problem drawing the radio boxs in the dialog preferences window when using ScreenBlaster in 800*600*4. The buttons are drawn in 2 colors and misaligned by 3 or 4 pixels, in the vertical plane. 6. I wish the built in file selector: Used more of the screen area, showed dates in the month-day-year format, had the speed of LGS in switching drives updates. 7. How do I change the pattern in the title bar and in the bottom scroll bar? Thanks Bman ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 88 Thu Oct 14, 1993 W.TURCZYNSK1 [Bill] at 19:27 EDT Dan: I received the final version of Geneva today but haven't looked at it yet! I just called Steinberg/Jones and asked why you haven't heard from them about CuBase. I don't know how you software companies deal with eachother or what is normal. I talked to a girl named Helen and had her totally confused, easy because I didn't know what you asked for! She looked but found no order for a copy of CuBase ST. They don't give them away but loan for a charge. She told me to tell you to call tomorrow and ask for her(Helen) at 818-993- 4161. I had called there yesterday but forgot to mention the problem. [Bill] ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 89 Thu Oct 14, 1993 R.PLAGGENBUR [Ralph / WA] at 21:13 EDT While working my slowly through the manual, I have hit a brick wall on page 28. While running Flash the example on that page, it does indeed show up smaller and Geneva is in italics. BUT Neodesk shows up in gobbeldy gook letters, and when I drad the mouse pointer to the Geneva, I get a message telling me that it will put the current program to sllep, or cancel. If I choose sleep the screen goes blank and locks up. Also if I just reset the computer without shutting everything down, when everything re-boots the mouse pointer is frozen in place. You know I should be a beta tester.... Ralph What version might I have??? did anyone in the know what is ment by release 002. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 90 Thu Oct 14, 1993 W.TURCZYNSK1 [Bill] at 22:04 EDT Dan: I just tried to register Geneva v1.01 under v.95 and I get a fatal error, I guess right after it erases the two files. I also tried from the v.95 registered floppy like your msg. stated and I can't get passed the WINN alert box! I get a recursive error. If I retry the process, should I recopy the whole disk or can I just recopy those two files? [Bill] ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 91 Thu Oct 14, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 22:48 EDT Further report on experience with v. 1.01. My problem with getting a boot-up message that there is no Neodesk file is solved. I had two different shell settings in GEM.CNF. However, all is not yet well with WordPerfect. At least it works now, but I find that I cannot paste from one window to another without the program going wild. It cycles between the two windows endlessly. The process can be stopped by moving the mouse pointer to the menu bar, but then the program hangs, and I have to reset the computer. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 92 Thu Oct 14, 1993 R.PLAGGENBUR [Ralph / WA] at 22:59 EDT Upon further testing, the problem I was having with Flash 1.60 was Flash I think. Aladdin (also 1.60) load as single tasking then when I look under DESK all that's there is ST aladdin and Geneva Manager. No Neodesk. If I open the task box Neodesk is there and choosing either Neodesk or Geneva from the Task box shuts down Aladdin and goes to Neo or Ge. But still no Neodesk under the DESK menu! Ralph ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 93 Fri Oct 15, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 00:14 EDT I got my package of Vaseline today and greased up both my STacy and my Falcon! So far so good. I installed Neodesk 3 as a a shell on both machines. But how do I get to the set video menu on the Falcon? Am I limited to 2 and 4 color modes on my Falcon until Neodesk 4 comes out? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 94 Fri Oct 15, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 01:27 EDT Ok, I answered my own dumb question. You can switch video modes under the Task Manager's options menu. And even though Neodesk might LOOK like its monochrome, you may really be in 16 or 256 color mode! Well, so far so good! Now I just wish I had 14 megs of RAM in my Falcon! ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 95 Fri Oct 15, 1993 T.CARMAN [Tom Carman] at 01:52 EDT Dan, Bless you!!! I really am looking forward to receiving Geneva 1.01. Let's see, if you mailed it out somewhere around this last weekend it should be here in a month or two. I may have faith in God and you, but the Post Office is a different matter . Thanks for checking into the NeoDesk Control Panel/Calligrapher problem again. Yes, it happens whether Geneva is loaded or not. I guess I should really speak to them myself about the SLM 804 memory management problems. Is there any chance that your memory limit in Geneva would be able to solve this while leaving Calligrapher set to be a memory hog? The reason I ask this is that various comments by the Codeheads seem to reveal that Working Title UK are not planning any updates until the Atari market picks up some. It's a great program as it is and the Codeheads do their best to support it, but I suspect we will have to live with these little bugs until those Falcons start showing up in more homes. Speaking of the Control Panel again, do you have any plans to incorporate CPXs into your Control Panel on Neodesk 4? There certainly are some handy CPXs out there, like the Clipboard CPX that would be nice to use under Neodesk. I know I could just use Atari's XCONTROL.ACC, but then I lose out on some of the features in your panel and I am not using an integrated package. BTW whats with all this Vaseline Intensive Care I keep hearing about? You have a bad case of exzema, or what? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 96 Fri Oct 15, 1993 MIKE-ALLEN [NM~SysOp] at 05:48 EDT Dan, I just downloaded the 1.00->1.01 patch file and am a little confused by the instructions. I bought 1.00 at Glendale but have held off installing it while reading the manual (Nice job, Al) and then waiting for the 1.01 patch. The .TXT file in the 1.00->1.01 implies (or am I inferring?) that one already has 1.00 installed. What do I do in my case? Mike Allen ST HelpDesk~Sysop Written: 3:45 AM Mountain Time Friday, October 15, 1993 ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 97 Fri Oct 15, 1993 P.BULLOCK2 [PETER] at 08:47 EDT I recieved my new version today! Thanks and now it's time to play. Great looking manual,too. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 98 Fri Oct 15, 1993 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 11:18 EDT Tom Carman, Calligrapher uses the GDOS SLM printer driver supplied by Atari. This driver (as all SLM drivers do) requires about one megabyte of memory. That's a simple fact of life for SLM owners because the SLM is a device which uses the memory of your computer. When you print to the SLM, a megabyte of your computer memory becomes part of your printer. Unfortunately, this printer driver doesn't handle memory shortages very gracefully. It usually crashes. Another thing which can cause you problems is if you run out of space on the partition containing your Calligrapher fonts and drivers. The font cache fills up during printing and it's up to you to make sure you have plenty of space (a couple of megabytes) free on that partition. I booted with Neodesk 3.04 and Neocontrol installed (along with my other normal TSRs), ran Calligrapher and printed a page using the HPL300 driver with no problem. This leads me to believe that there is no inherent conflict between Calligrapher and the Neodesk Control Panel. You can verify this for yourself by stripping out other resident software and booting with only Neodesk and Neocontrol. I think you'll have no problem printing with Calligrapher. In other words, it's my opinion that your problem is caused by a shortage of memory (your computer's, not yours). If you still have the problem with a stripped system, please come to the Calligrapher topic and provide details about your system so that we may investigate the problem further. Thank you. John ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 99 Fri Oct 15, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 12:56 EDT Flakes, What does your SHOWHELP statement say in the GEM.CNF? Does it point to the folder where your help app is located? GEM.CNF can be editted in any text editor that can save as ASCII. I also have my PATH statement pointing to the HELP folder, although this may not be necessary in the current version(s) of Geneva. Bman, The 3D look is a lot less 3D in monochrome; are you running in ST High mode? Note the comment to Flakes above in regard to the Help files. The Task Manager's menus let you configure the underlines (on or off). This is covered in the manual and in the on-line help, and is pretty much self-evident in the Task Manager, too. You should see an entry there. Any alternative item selector (file selector, as it used to be called) can be used, in the standard way. Just put it in your auto folder, if it is an auto- folder program. Geneva's built-in item selector does quite a bit more than the alternative selectors. Once you try its features out, you may have a kinder view of it. Dates are, indeed, shown in the MM/DD/YY format, but only when you use the 1- column mode. I suspect you'll see this feature and a lot of others once you have had time to play with it some more and have read the manual. Changing the patterns in the title bar and bottom scroll bars is done by the Window Colors CPX, which operates under XCONTROL.ACC. Ralph, Page 28 shows Flash running on an ST, with all other applications asleep. Clicking on any of the sleeping applications puts Flash to sleep and awakens the others. If, on your system, NeoDesk shows up in goobledegook letters when it is sleeping, something is out of whack in a serious way. Check to make sure you are not running TWO copies of NeoDesk, for starters. You should have NeoDesk.exe as the shell, and must disable Neoload as the auto- running GEM app in the TOS desktop. This is not hard to do, except that boot managers often undo what you have done, and you may have an auto-boot app listed even if you don't think you do. The manual covers this well. Also check to see if you have NeoDesk configured to unload when it executes applications. I know Dan will have the programmer's expert view of this, but my understanding is that you may need to have NeoDesk loaded all the time under Geneva to have everything work the way you want it to. The Set Preferences menu in NeoDesk has the option of unloading NeoDesk, and it should be unchecked. (You also may have some installed applications that have that option checked or unchecked, so you may need to look at those, also.) Bill, Except for the known bug that involves the animated mouse pointer, WordPerfect has behaved well in a lot of beta testing, both on my systems here (TT and ST) and on others. Which version of WP are you running? (There were a few upgrades from WP Corp.) Have you tried WP in single-tasking mode? Tom, XCONTROL is an excellent tool for use in NeoDesk, Geneva and all apps that run under them. Some of the CPXes are absolutely vital in my setup. There should be no problem (other than the use a little more memory) running XCONTROL and the NeoDesk CP. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 100 Fri Oct 15, 1993 B.AEIN [B Man] at 18:51 EDT Al, I am running in Medium and 800*600*4 on my F030. Here in Aladdin the windows look 3Dish but not like what is illustrated in the manual. NeoDesk does not have this 3D look that I am getting right now in writing this reply. I really do like the speed of LGS and the ability to call Maxi! Bman ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 101 Fri Oct 15, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 18:52 EDT >I got my package of Vaseline today and greased up both my STacy and my Falcon! >So far so good. I installed Neodesk 3 as a a shell on both machines. But how >do I get to the set video menu on the Falcon? Am I limited to 2 and 4 color >modes on my Falcon until Neodesk 4 comes out? I didn't know you guys sold Geneva a Geneva "Site License". How much is it? :-) _________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 102 Fri Oct 15, 1993 DMJ [dmj] at 19:15 EDT Just found a bug in Geneva 1.00, it may already be fixed in 1.01... When the fileselector appears, click Tools, and choose Find from the popup. A small dialog appears; now click the small text that says you can use wildcards... crashes whatever program I'm using when I do it, including Geneva itself if that was the active program. FWIW, the "Return" button in the fileselector's Help dialog is selectable... it doesn't hurt anything, it's just weird. -dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 103 Fri Oct 15, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 20:02 EDT Dan et al: Yippie! I got 1.01 today. Haven't had a chance to install yet, but at first glance... I'm impressed. Great packaging. Like others have mentioned, high marks on the manual. (Nice job Al and Dan) I don't think I've ever seen a manual with so little white space on a page, that was as readable. After initial read through, the only 'fault' I could see was that the hole punch used was large enough to clip a tiny bit of copy from the page. (what can I say, I tend to be a bit perfectionistic!) I do have a couple dumb question though. I understand that I will need to have .95 running when I run the register prg for 1.01. Can I boot with it,(0.95) then delete the folder/files and run reg. and install prgs? Or should I leave it in and overwrite? Also, the NeoD RSC files included... this may be overkill but maybe we should remind folks to save their .NIC files before deleting the old RSC's. (or am I mistaken and the icons are saved elsewhere?) I haven't had a chance to check all the docs or read me's so if these questions are answered there, forgive me. Well done! Matt .... One last thing: the enclosed registration card. As .095 was 'pre registered' do I need to send in the card? It couldn't hurt, huh? ;-) M ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 104 Fri Oct 15, 1993 DMJ [dmj] at 20:35 EDT Bman: My own experience with Geneva is that in four-color mode, the 3D effect is noticeably less than in monochrome or 16-color mode. You can tweak the 3D look of the system with the Task Manager accessory; look in your Geneva manual, starting on p. 59, for more information. -dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 105 Fri Oct 15, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 23:01 EDT Here's a bit of a problem between Geneva and Screenblaster. Screenblaster doesn't seem to recognize the way that Geneva sets video modes. Although Screenblaster "works" with Geneva and Neodesk, if I boot up with Screenblaster and Geneva, I get stuck in two color mode. Can anyone tell me how to get into 16 or 256 color mode with both Screenblaster and Geneva installed? This is kind of important because Screenblaster doesn't get along too well with Warp 9 in 2 color mode at greater than 640x480, while they get along fine in 16 or 256 at higher resolutions. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 106 Fri Oct 15, 1993 M.TERRY5 [Martin] at 23:12 EDT Dan, I too have recently received my copy of Geneva 1.01. GREAT!! It even works with an older copy of Phasar that simply _would not_ run before! Thanks! But- Hidden files don't show up in the file selector any more!!! TERRIBLE!!!! I REALLY LIKED THAT!!!! Please, please, please, make it an option, or show them grey like (my previous fave, and looks like will be again) Selectric. I realise I could use any alternative file selector, but multitasking makes 4 meg seem VERY small, and I'd rather save the memory. What's the story on MINT compatibility? Any time frame? "Geneva is the best thing since sliced bread" Martin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 107 Fri Oct 15, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 23:54 EDT Bman, The new RSC files distributed for NeoDesk with the latest Geneva allow all NeoDesk windows to have the 3D look, at least on the ST and TT. I am not familiar enough with the Falcon to know what happens there. The manual's screen shots were taken from an ST High-Res screen, which, as Dan would be the first to say, does not do justice to the wonderful 3D appearance of the new AES in Geneva. On the TT, the screen is fanastic. Not that I want to beat this item-selector thing to a dead skunk, but you can call Maxi at any time (I do this) by assigning a hotkey to MaxiFile through the Task Manager. LGS will not do what the item selector in Geneva does, although I am a huge fan of LGS and am a shareware fee-payer. LGS will not, by itself, allow you to create folders or delete them, for example, or let you copy or move files or entire folders (and all their nested folders). I hope you'll give the new item selector a chance. By the way, my spies close to Atari tell me the newest TOS, still not out, copies the look of much of the Geneva item selector, without imitating its functionality. Doug, You have a good point. I'm using Geneva on two machines at once, which was necessary to do better beta testing, but now that it's commercial I should be using it on one machine only. Dan, what's the official position on this? Do those of us with two Ataris need to get a "site license" (i.e., send an extra payment) for the two machines? Matt, Dan also gave the "save-the-icons" advice yesterday. What is even mroe important is for every user to have backups anyway, of all important files. As I stated here earlier, no one should ever install new software on top of old software without having a full backup of what is being overwritten. You can boot with .95, install the newer version, delete the old remnants (minding the backup advice), and then reboot. Damien, Good bug, as we say in the publishing business! (A good bug is a bug nobody else would have ever found, found early enough in the life cycle to fix before it causes trouble.) Clicking on the "wildcard" text line causes the same crash here on the TT, too. The "Return" button does, indeed, press down, unlike any of the others, which are not really buttons. And pressing it returns you to wherever you were before ... makes sense, right? I wonder what Dan was planning for that one, though. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 108 Sat Oct 16, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 00:21 EDT Thanks Al, Yes, I'm a true fan of backups. Saved my bacon many a time. Must have missed Dan's msg. re: the icons. Can't wait to do the install. Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 109 Sat Oct 16, 1993 O-ZONE [Flakes] at 09:57 EDT Al, Yea, that was it. I missed it the first time. The path was missing the "help" folder. Thanks and BTW, GREAT MANUAL! EVERYONE READ IT! I gotta get more memory! ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 110 Sat Oct 16, 1993 M.OSTRANDER1 [Mike O] at 10:48 EDT Received my new Geneva yesterday (I was far from the top of the beta list, so I've been waiting *sort of* patiently). I'm surprised by how much better than the beta it seems to be, even though the beta didn't give me any trouble I didn't create for myself. Besides echoing compliments on the manual, I must say that the new version of the Item Selector is great. I wasn't too keen on the Item Selector included with the beta, but this one pleases me. I may give up UIS III now. By the way: what, if anything, is printed on the spine of the manual binder underneath the stick-on Geneva label? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 111 Sat Oct 16, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 12:59 EDT Dan, If Warp9 is run after Geneva in the AUTO folder, Steno, and Atari Works do not redraw the white background of their windows properly. If I run Warp9 before Geneva in the AUTO folder, Geneva complains about something else stealing exec_os(). So... I have to run Geneva from the Desktop. Also, color Icons don't seem to work with Geneva 1.01. --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 112 Sat Oct 16, 1993 R.CARPENTE18 [Bob C.] at 14:30 EDT I just got my Geneva 1.01 in the mail and it looks great! I like the fact that you used a 3 ring binder for the manual. I wish more developers would since addendums can just be inserted into the manual. Just one question, though. Every application has the nice 3D windows except Neodesk (I'm running 3.04). What am I doing wrong here? The Neodesk disk windows have the normal flat look which is a little "blah" after the normal Geneva look. I'm running Geneva in TT medium with Neodesk setup as the shell. Bob Carpenter ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 113 Sat Oct 16, 1993 R.CARPENTE18 [Bob C.] at 14:51 EDT Gee, I should've looked for what Al would say before posting up here :-) The readme disk said I should replace the RSC files, it just didn't say why. After Al's response, I now see why. I now have nice 3D windows in Neodesk. Thanks, Al. Gribnif, Do I need to send in the registration card if you've already got me down as an owner of the Beta? Bob Carpenter ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 114 Sat Oct 16, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 16:10 EDT When Geneva runs from the auto folder, it insists on kicking Screenblaster into 2 color mode. But if I run Geneva from the desktop, I can use screenblaster in whatever resolution and # of colors I like (as long as its a rez that Warp 9 gets along with.) ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 115 Sat Oct 16, 1993 R.BUSH [Richard Bush] at 16:24 EDT Just got my new Geneva and it's VERY nice. Having said that, here's my bug report With Speedo GDOS loaded, I still can only use the system font. If I go into the help screen the other fonts are available but if I select one the computer locks up. From the Task Manager the other fonts aren't even available. The Setmouse program doesn't do anything. If I click on it nothing happens. I'm using a Falcon in 16 color 80 column mode and NeoDesk 3.04. One thing I am very pleased about, Word Perfect, which broke on the Falcon, (and apparently under the beta Geneva on all STs) is fixed for the most part. The bottom window status bar is back and the windows are stabilized. Some alert boxes leave a shadow behind, but if you click on the window size box it will go away. Geneva is worth it just to get Word Perfect back! A request for the next version of the item selector: It really needs a rename feature. (You can get around it by "moving" a file to the same location and renaming it from the alert box.) ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 116 Sat Oct 16, 1993 MYECK.WATERS [myeck] at 18:42 EDT Gribnif; This has probably been covered before, but in preparation for the upcoming elections I have made myself extremely stupid: I want to support my local dealer. Can I order Geneva through them, and what all do I need in order to get Geneva AND update my NeoDesk from 3.03? thanks ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 117 Sat Oct 16, 1993 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 19:35 EDT JLHOFFMAN I don't know if my explanation will help your problem but you mentioned that you made a copy and then tried to do the installation. I did the same thing. I always make copies before I start using a new program. My installation didn't work with the copies or from the hard disk. I had to register the original disk and do the installation from there. That's not exactly how it was explained in the manual though, It seems to say that you can do the installation from your hard disk. I guess I should have known better. So try that, hope it works for you. Geneva is an interesting program. Does anyone know what the Hotwire fix is like (there wasn't any Read.me file on mine), or what it accomplishes? What is the proper way to use Hotwire in the Geneva environment to get the most out of it? M.STEFANI Geneva is available from Gribnif only I think (for the time being). I'm sure the dealers will be getting their shipments as soon as they can. It's DEFINATELY worth having, the program works very well. I now wish I had NeoDesk, but after spending a small fortune at the Glendale show, I'm going to have to wait. Besides, I don't need another manual and operating system to learn. I had my Hotwire/Multidesk/Maxifile system working like a charm, but Geneva adds a whole new dimension to my system. I still don't know how I should use Geneva with the absence of Neodesk. >AEO.5 [Ed Krimen] at 22:59 EDT > >Those of you having memory problems with Calamus SL with Geneva, make >sure you increase the memory limit on CALAMUS.PRG in the Task Manager. >It defaults to 1meg. That might explain the problems I've been having. Once I get to the taskmanager and the dialog box to change the memory allotment, what do I set it to. I get confused with the Kbytes and the Bytes and the whatevers. Tell me what that setting (Kb) should be and make my life a little easier....:-) B.MAN I'm having some of the same problems your encountering. I just havn't had time lately to try and figure them out (if I could). I can't get the help files to work, I also dislike the lines under the letters in the file boxes (I'm sure there is an explanation, I just don't know it). I'd also like to use the LGS/Maxifile combo. But hey...this is a very strong program with some people behind it that are very good. I'm sure things will work out. A Question: There are a lot of different ways that Geneva can be configured with the DA's and Multitasking and all. Is there a way to findout how much memory things are taking up, and how much is left to use so that you can figure out how much you can do at any particular time and place. SHOWMEM doesn't seem to want to run under Geneva. Steve Blackburn AtariUser P.S. Listen boys and girls, tell the developers and and the dealers that you miss seeing their ads in AtariUser. They have to know that you read and are interested in the magazine before they put their hard earned money into advertising. Without advertising we will have a hard time surviving (especially since the magazine is FREE). ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 118 Sat Oct 16, 1993 R.BUSH [Richard Bush] at 20:12 EDT Well, now I have a major problem. I WAS using Gem Spooler, but I tried to print and kept getting disk full messages, (it wasn't full) finally had to reboot and now it crashes on bootup unless I disable the spooler. Reinstalling the spooler doesn't work, yet it works fine without Geneva. What the heck did it do? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 119 Sat Oct 16, 1993 DMJ [dmj] at 23:14 EDT Richard Bush: Geneva's INFO tool in the fileselector lets you change the name. Select a file, choose INFO, enter the new name, click OK. This is covered on page 74 of your manual. -dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 120 Sun Oct 17, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 00:25 EDT Kevin, What machine are you using? Color icons and Warp 9 haven't given trouble on the TT and ST here. Are you using a Falcon? Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 121 Sun Oct 17, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 01:01 EDT Thanks, Al. I was running WP in multitasking mode. But changing it to single- tasking does not solve the problem with switching windows. The cycling occurs whenever I try to switch, whether when pasting a block or not. Meanwhile, the program seems to create blank space at the top of the file continuously, and the gadget on the scroll bar moves down, at least sometimes. I can still stop it by moving the mouse pointer to the menu bar, but then it starts again when I move it off the menu bar again. With a lot of fiddling, possibly not repeatable, I did get to stop finally so I could exit the program without rebooting, but something is definitely wrong somewhere. I certainly did not get these problems under TOS 2.05. By the way, this is the latest version of WP (April 91) and I have used the Warp 9 patch, which I believe only affects Multidesk, which I am not using under Geneva for now at least. One more thing to try. Perhaps my WP file is corrupted. Well, I tried reinstaling a fresh copy from the original floppy, and things are no better with the switching, worse if anything, since I couldn't fiddle it so I could exit without resetting the machine. So the problem has to have something to do with Geneva and the rest of my system. Its effects do seem to be irregular, but are always brought on by attempting to switch from one open window to another. On the positive side, I like the new file selector, and for the moment am trying it as my regular one in place of UIS III, without apparent loss of anything I did with UIS. I have ceased to use the DC Shower and its modules. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 122 Sun Oct 17, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 01:34 EDT Richard, The item selector does indeed have an excellent rename function, which you have missed because it's not called rename. (We're trying to keep you on your toes.) It's called INFO, and when you choose that option you can type the new name into the dialog. Page 75 of the manual covers this pretty well: "Files can be renamed from the dialog, as can folders on Ataris running TOS 1.04 or greater..." You can't use anything except monospaced fonts in the Help viewer or Geneva's TOS app manager. This is true of practically all Atari appplications that support a variety of fonts; unlike the Mac, which offers built-in support for proportionally spaced fonts in the system software, the Atari has no way of handling them without a lot of overhead and separate code. (You'll note, for example, that even Atari Works uses non-proportional fonts in its own menus and dialogs, despite the fact that it makes excellent use of Speedo proportional fonts on its editing screen.) Setmouse should be run at bootup, using this sort of statement at the bottom of GEM.CNF: run c:\geneva\setmouse\setmouse.prg or whatever the full path is. Setmouse looks for setmouse.dat, which lists the mouse shapes it should use. The dat file should be in the same folder as setmouse.prg. Steve, SHOWMEM works fine under Geneva, but I have another suggestion - BERCLOCK.ACC, which shows a continual display of memory (and on TTs, shows ST and TT memory separately if you want). It's in the libraries here. (It's the Bermuda Clock.) The manual didn't say to copy the files to the hard drive. The Task Manager's configuration options will change Geneva so that it will look the way you want it to. Make backup copies of the primary files, then play with the configs all you want. NeoDesk isn't hard to learn, and the power it adds to your computing is worth the modest cost and the small time required to get used to it. (It has no oddities, and is fully GEM in all its basic operations.) There is even a nice little guide to NeoDesk called ... aw, shucks, I can't keep tooting this horn all the time. Richard, GEM Spool is a well written DA that operates without a hitch under Geneva. Reinstall it from scratch. I installed it under Geneva (never ran it any other way, in fact, and have only seen my normal desktop once or twice in the last few months), and it gave me no trouble. Al ------------