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The system will prompt you for your information. ========================================================================== ************ Topic 19 Wed Jun 30, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 15:20 EDT Sub: Geneva - Multitasking Environment The following topic will cover messages and discussions regarding GENEVA, the Multitasking Application Environment from Gribnif Software. 203 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 1 Wed Jun 30, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 15:22 EDT We've just uploaded the press releases to our newest software product for the Atari: GENEVA. In short, Geneva is a Multitasking Application Environment for the Atari ST, STE, TT/030, and Falcon. The press releases are: GEDESC.TXT - A brief description of GENEVA and a brief company overview. File# 29183 GENEVA.TXT - The main GENEVA news release, everything you want to know! File# 29182 GEBETA.TXT - Information on how to become a GENEVA beta tester. Gribnif Software ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 2 Mon Aug 02, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 20:05 EDT Long post warning! (I am uploading this as a library file also, so if you do not want to go through this or want to make sure you have it as a file that you can share with others, you can download it as HOWGENEV.ZIP.) Geneva'S MULTITASKING: YOU DON'T NEED ANYTHING ELSE TO ACHIEVE IT By Al Fasoldt Geneva beta tester August 2, 1993 (The author is systems editor of the Syracuse Newspapers and a syndicated columnist on consumer technology. He is the author of "Secrets of NeoDesk," "Secrets of Flash" and other texts in the "Secrets of ..." series, and has programmed for the Atari and other platforms.) Copyright (C) 1993 by Al Fasoldt. All rights reserved. (Please feel free to distribute this widely) Gribnif Software's Geneva and multitasking: Geneva itself is a multitasking environment for the Atari line of computers. It does not need any third-party software to run many tasks (programs) at the same time. This means that Geneva does NOT need any specific replacement desktop or any other specific add-on software to do its job. Period. But why, then, is there so much talk about Geneva and NeoDesk? The common misconception is that Geneva needs NeoDesk in order to multitask, and that, as I have just pointed out, is not the case. Here's the real story. By itself, Geneva is a replacement for the built-in AES in Atari computers. The AES is the Application Environment Services -- the part of the computer's operating system that handles windows, dialogs and things like that. The AES is a vital part of the operating system, and is what gives GEM -- the Atari Graphics Environment Manager -- its distinctive "look and feel." Geneva doesn't have its own built-in desktop. That's the job of another part of the operating system. Usually, the desktop is also built into the computer, just like the AES. But when you run Geneva, you have to depend on an externally loaded desktop, one that Geneva itself loads. And that's the rub. If you want Geneva to work with a desktop of any kind, you must decide whether you want the desktop to support multitasking. If it does not support multitasking, the desktop will run only ONE application at a time. Right now, the only add-on desktop that supports multitasking is the one that was developed by the same programmer who created Geneva, NeoDesk (and only NeoDesk 3.04 on up). Other desktops will support multitasking before long, but as of now, NeoDesk is the only one. Let's back up and go over this entire issue of a desktop. Can you run Geneva without a desktop? Yes, with no problem at all. Does that mean you can buy Geneva and multitask to your heart's content without owning NeoDesk? Yes, indeed. To repeat, you do not need to use NeoDesk to multitask with Geneva. But without a desktop, how can you open windows and work with file lists and click on icons and all that sort of thing? Basically, you can't do "all that sort of thing" in just that sort of way. We like desktops -- or, most of us like desktops -- because of the way they integrate the image of a real desktop with the workings of the operating system. You see the icon of a folder and click on it and it opens to reveal files; you drag an icon to another one and drop it there, and magical things happen. The Mac, the Atari and Microsoft's Windows make this sort of thing very easy and very intuitive. So how do you work with Geneva if you don't have a desktop under Geneva? You use Geneva's own menu, which is the main GEM menu when you run Geneva by itself. You choose "Open" and select an application to run. You can even select FIVE applications to run, all at the same time, from Geneva's powerful item selector. (The item selector also lets you create folders and delete files, and it has an exceptionally powerful search feature. If it had one more feature -- the ability to copy files and folders -- it would compete with the champ in this area, MaxiFile.) Or you use the Task Manager, which is a separate utility supplied with Geneva. It manages tasks, obviously; but it does much, much more, allowing you to customize Geneva in ways that can make any GEM application you run under Geneva look and behave like the best Windows application or the best Mac software. The Task Manager lets you put running programs to sleep instantly with a mouse click or a keypress. (In fact, Geneva can do that itself without the need for the Task Manager's presence, if you want to save a little memory and leave the Task Manager out). Here's a typical scenario. You boot up with Geneva and nothing else -- not even any desk accessories. Want to have the Task Manager running? Open Geneva's item selector, and click on TASKMAN. (It doesn't matter whether TASKMAN is in the file list as a program or a desk accessory; Geneva can run a desk accessory at any time, even after your computer is booted up.) Want more desk accessories? Use the item selector and run them. Want to run Atari Works? Use the item selector (or the similar command in the Task Manager) and run it. OK, now you have a bunch of desk accessories (any number -- Geneva has no limit) and Atari Works running. Need to receive a fax that is supposed to come in some time that evening? Go to the desk menu, choose Geneva, and Atari Works becomes a background application (with its windows, but not its main menu bar, still visible). Then run STraight FAX! from Geneva's menu. Set up STraight FAX! to receive a fax automatically, then go to the desk menu again and choose Atari Works. Atari Works' GEM menu bar reappears, and its windows come back to the foreground, and you can resume what you were doing in any of the three modules of Atari Works. But then you realize you'd like a little music while you are writing. Drop down the desk menu and run Paula (the mod file player) as either a program or an accessory. Paula's window appears, you select a group of mod files, and then you switch back to Atari Works; Paula keeps playing all the time, and STraight FAX! keeps watching for that fax to come in. When you have finsihed writing in Atari Works, you want to get all its GEM windows off the screen so you can play Breakout. No need to exit Atari Works -- you might want to use the database function later -- so you merely open the desk menu and hold down [Shift] while you click on the listing for Atari Works ... and Atari Works goes to sleep, its windows gone, its processor time released back to the system and its current status preserved for the moment that it is awakened. Your fax comes in, and STraight FAX! alerts you with a tone and pops itself into the foreground, saves the fax, then disappears behind the Breakout window. You return to the desk menu and click on the entry for Atari Works and is bounces back to life, returning to the exact state it was in when you gave it a sleeping pill. You do some more work, then decide to make a call with Aladdin. Things get interesting at this point. Aladdin is not on friendly terms with a multitasking system; it thinks it owns the computer, and it definitely lays claims on the standard modem port. But STraight FAX! (running on a Mega STe or TT) has an advantage; you already set up to use an alternate modem port, so Aladdin can do what it wants at the same time. (Yes, you don't need to quit STraight FAX! to run Aladdin or another telecommunications program under Geneva, as long as you have more than one serial port.) Geneva, through the Task Manager's setup, knows that Aladdin is uncooperative, so when you run Aladdin all the other applications are immeidately suspended -- put to sleep. When you are through with your call to GEnie, you go to the desk menu and click on Atari Works or STraight FAX!, and Geneva puts Aladdin to sleep while waking up the others. Is this sort of thing true? Yes. Is it easy? Definitely. Do you need NeoDesk to do this? No. Geneva does it by itself. ... But what happens if you decide to use your favorite replacement desktop under Geneva? Suppose you run HotWire; will Geneva coexist with HotWire? Of course. But will HotWire be able to launch one program and then run another while the first one is running? No. HotWire was not designed to multitask. So does that kill Geneva's multitasking? Not at all. It only means that the replacement desktop can only run one program at a time, like it always operates under the standard AES. But Geneva is still multitasking, and that means that Geneva can be running other applications at the same time as HotWire -- TWO HotWires, even, or one HotWire and one TeraDesk. You get the point. ... Much of the way Geneva works hasn't been touched on here. For example, you don't really need to go to the desk menu to switch to another application; Geneva lets you do this with a keypress. And I haven't even pointed out that Geneva lets you manipulate the windows and features of GEM programs that are running in the background, just by holding down the right button while you click and scroll with the left one. You can block off a section of text in Atari Works and save it to the clipboard with another application in the foreground, for example. And, lastly, Geneva does all this without slowing your system down with a lot of overhead. It's lean, clean and mean, and is clearly the best single piece of software for the Atari since GEM was developed nine years ago. Your computing life under Geneva is about to take a dramatic new course. Al Fasoldt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 3 Sat Aug 14, 1993 C.ALLEN17 [Cliff] at 15:15 EDT It's probably something simple but I haven't quite got the hang of it yet. I have set Geneva and Neodesk up on my Mega 4/no hard drive. (using this as a test bed to get use to Geneva). I keep getting the following message: Process Neoload exited with Status #-33 (there is no file with this name) I am in the process of rereading the message base here and going back through the manual. What am I doing wrong? Cliff (Ashevillite) ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 4 Sat Aug 14, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 20:27 EDT Thanks for the info Jeff. Happy to hear it! With the 'ol mighty buck being in somewhat short supply, a quick d/l seems, "more prudent at this juncture." Hey, I've heard that somewhere before.... Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 5 Sat Aug 14, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 22:45 EDT Cliff, Error 33 is File Not Found or somesuch, and Geneva is telling you that either Neoload or Neodesk.exe is not in the path. That's my guess. First, get rid of the auto-run feature of desktop.inf or newdesk.inf and let Geneva run NeoDesk instead, using the SHELL statement in GEM.CNF. Second, get rid of the auto-run selection in any boot manager such as SuperBoot or XBoot, since it will insert the GEM auto-run line back into the desktop file. Third, edit the GEM.CNF file so that EXE is one of the GEMEXT extensions. Fourth, put SHELL=C:\PATH\NEODESK.EXE as the last line of GEM.CNF. Fifth, make sure that both JARXXX.PRG and NEOLOAD.PRG are in the auto folder, with JAR very early. Sixth, enjoy Geneva! Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 6 Sun Aug 15, 1993 C.ALLEN17 [Cliff] at 17:42 EDT Al, Thanks for the info. As soon as I get off the line, I'll give it a try. I think (First) was going to be my next plan. So much to do and so little time to do it in. Cliff (Ashevillite) ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 7 Sun Aug 15, 1993 R.GRABLE [Richie] at 22:44 EDT I have an interesting one for you. Am trying to run a bbs under Geneva and have been successful in getting Turbo II and Binkley to work. However, a program called Crossnet is another matter. With only a few flags enabled this was the error message I got when running it from the task manager: Three bombs and this message; Process XNETPROC exited with status #-1 (Data on this drive may be damaged! Check the connections and be sure there is a disk.) When running it from the file menu I get just the 3 bombs. When I disabled all the flags it started to run but then 4 bombs appeared with what looks like 12 low rez bombs below then (am running on a SM-147 and Mega STE-4 with TOS 2.06). Wonder what would happen with the old Mega ST-2 instead? Maybe it will work when it can be run in a window. BTW, both crossnet programs work with Multi-TOS but on a 16mhz machine they are to slow. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 8 Sun Aug 15, 1993 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 23:37 EDT Al, How doew Geneva work with Tracker/ST? I would like to have AtariWorks and Tracker running at the same time and be able to transfer info between them. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 9 Mon Aug 16, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:13 EDT Steve, I haven't run Tracker under G yet, but will run it this afternoon and let you know. (Come to think of it, yes, of course I ran Tracker under G the last time I used Tracker! Where's my mind?) Anyway, I'll try Tracker and AW together and let you know. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 10 Mon Aug 16, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 08:19 EST Cliff, >> It's probably something simple but I haven't quite got the >> hang of it yet. I have set Geneva and Neodesk up on my >> Mega 4/no hard drive. (using this as a test bed to get >> use to Geneva). I keep getting the following message: >> Process Neoload exited with Status #-33 (there is no file >> with this name) I am in the process of rereading the >> message base here and going back through the manual. >> What am I doing wrong? I'd try a "bare" setup of JARXXX, GENEVA, and NEOLOAD in the AUTO Folder (in that exact order) and TASKMAN.ACC in the root directory of C:\ and see if the problem persists. Also, 1) make sure that a copy of NEOLOAD.PRG is also found in the C:\NEODESK3 folder as well as NEODESK.EXE (this is where GEM.CNF expects to find it), 2) delete FORMDOIT.PRG from the AUTO Folder, 3) be sure to run JARXXX before GENEVA and GENEVA before WARP9_ST.PRG and G+PLUS.PRG when reordering your AUTO Folder, and 4) edit your NEWDESK.INF file to insure that it no longer states that NEOLOAD.PRG should be autobooted. Also, if you have done it already, be sure GEM.CNF and GENEVA.INF are in the root directory of C:\ and not still in the \GENEVA folder. ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 11 Mon Aug 16, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 14:37 EDT Richie, Is crossnet available as free/shareware? Is it on GEnie? Cliff, For some reason, Geneva is trying to run NEOLOAD.PRG and the file is not found. Most likely, it is either listed in GEM.CNF or your NEWDESK/DESKTOP.INF file. If the latter is the case, you should remove NeoDesk from autobooting and instead use the "shell" line in GEM.CNF. Richard, There is unfortunately no way to select a Falcon resolution with the beta version of Geneva. I have already addresses this for the final release. Al, Only some programs have problems with fast loading. While you would be safest leaving it off for all programs, this is certainly not preferable. The only real way to find out what works and what doesn't is by experimentation. Geneva does not directly alter the way that fast loading works. However, it can make problem programs act up more, simply because of the fact that since Geneva makes use of more memory, it is more likely that a particular block a program receives will not be cleared. Let's say you run Pagestream, quit it, and then run some small utility that requires memory to be cleared. Since the memory it asks for is where Pagestream used to be, it might not be clear anymore. I think I'll just add a program flag to optionally clear any memory a program allocates. This should take care of 99% of the cases. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 12 Mon Aug 16, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 21:22 EDT Any chance the release version of GENEVA will be available at the Glendale show on Sept 18/19? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 13 Mon Aug 16, 1993 C.ALLEN17 [Cliff] at 21:57 EDT Mike, Dan and Al, It is now working without giving me the error mentioned in my preveious message. Al, I installed NeoDesk and then Geneva. Looking at the Desktop.inf file, I deleted the line containing the autorun NEOLOAD.prg. Whala, working. Lurkers, Don't forget that the majority of people here are more than willing to lend a heplping hand. If you have a problem, ask. If your unsure of what to ask, do your best to explain what is going on and we'll do our best to help. Cliff (Ashevillite) ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 14 Mon Aug 16, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 23:23 EDT Dan, A flag for memory clearing sounds great. BTW, how is this handled in the Mac and PC worlds? Do they even do that sort of clearing? Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 15 Tue Aug 17, 1993 M.OSTRANDER1 [Mike O] at 22:12 EDT Dan, Thanks for the help upgrading to NeoDesk 3.04! Geneva was working fine for me without NeoDesk, but I sure missed all those icons for file manipulations and such. Sure, there's a slight overhead penalty for a GUI, but Geneva/NeoDesk makes _me_ happy. - Mike ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 16 Wed Aug 18, 1993 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 00:26 EDT Al, I'm looking forward to getting Geneva at the Glendale show. I have a Moniterm and I REALLY like the thought of running Tracker and AW and a few other programs together in one fashion or another. What about data transfer between different programs. Is Geneva going to help make it easier. Is there a clipboard or buffer built into Geneva for that? How will I move information from Tracker to Atariworks? Nevin says that there is a big problem. Atari doesn't seem to want to help him out with the information he needs. will it be possible? I have a lot invested in this "old" Mega4. Geneva, along with the Marpit Expansion board (anyone have any experience with that?) and my T-25 will add some life to the system. Using the moniterm with all this going on is going to be fun...(anyone seen Murphy?) Have a good one....Steve ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 17 Wed Aug 18, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:27 EDT Steve, Marpit, no. Moving info among apps in Geneva requires those apps to support the clipboard, or requires some other method (EdHack would come in handy, I am sure, for those occasions when you need to grab data that doesn't go into the clipboard). As for Tracker and AW, AW will become very popular, and we have some talented software artists around here, so I'd bet there will be a conversion utility. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 18 Wed Aug 18, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 07:49 EDT Hmm... I seem to get a "xxx.PRG exited status -1, drive data may be damaged" alert quite often while running Geneva on my Falcon with 14meg ram & oodles of HD space. I haven't figured out what seems to trigger the problem yet. BTW, I just rec'ved interface, the new RSC editor. IT IS WAAAAAY COOL!!!! Thanks for importing these great programs Dan & Rick. I tell ya, I was leery when I heard it was $99, but knowing the quality of the programs you guys import & then actually using Interface... it is waay cool. --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 19 Wed Aug 18, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 11:22 EDT Kevin, I have, by the way, made the -1 error message a little more descriptive for the final version. I am still not sure why you would be getting it, unless it is because the program is either bombing or you are terminating it from Geneva. Some programs do return an error code when they should not, though, due to sloppy programming, so maybe this is the problem. I'm glad to hear you like Interface. David, We're hoping to have it there, yes. With any luck, we will also be shipping out the final version to anyone who is supposed to receive it at, or before, that time. Al, I'm really not sure what they do about memory clearing. I think they just informed programmers not to rely on the memory being cleared in the first place, which is what Atari should have done. Steve, Unfortunately, if there are problems with transferring data between programs that don't want to talk to each other, there really is no way for any outside program to facilitate things. The operating system provides a GEM Clipboard for doing this, but if either program does not want to support it, there is no way around this. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 20 Wed Aug 18, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 14:43 EDT Dan, The -1 error usually happens shortly after double clicking on the program icon. I doubt it could be running out of ram since I still had 10 meg or so free. When I usually get the -1 alert upon starting a program, usually the only way to execute any more programs is to exit Geneva or to reboot the Falcon. I've never seen that message on my 2.5meg 1040STf with TOS2.06. On the 1040, the major problem was a "Recursive GEMDOS call, Fatal error" type of message. Back to using Interface some more... BTW, will the final docs be in German or xlated to English? :) --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 21 Thu Aug 19, 1993 JLHOFFMAN [John Hoffman] at 01:42 EDT I notice something that is a bit confusing and could even be real trouble. When I run a program that modifies the file system neodesk doesn't know about the changes. So if I run a program and it deletes a file. The I exit out of the program and look at the directory with neodesk the file is still there. Hitting esc reloads the directory correctly. This didn't happen before I started using geneva. This has caused me some confusion I even had the problem where I tried running a program that had been deleted resulting in the error code that indicates the file wasn't found. John ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 23 Thu Aug 19, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 19:44 EDT John, Yes, this is the behavior of the current (pre-1.00) beta. The SHELL function is supposed to tell NeoD when to update a window, but that is not working reliably. A version that is now being tested may correct that; I'll check it out. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 24 Thu Aug 19, 1993 R.GRABLE [Richie] at 21:31 EDT Crossnet is shareware and is used for networking message bases with Forem or Turbo BBS's and using the Fmailer to transfer the files. It won't work without the necessary setup but I can send you the program to have a look. It's just that it died such a horribly, ugly death, when used with Geneva. It runs under MultiTOS but is to slow (as most everything is at 16mhz). The fnet is dying also as many ST sysops either switch machines or move to Fido. I will probably within the next year. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 25 Fri Aug 20, 1993 O-ZONE [Flakes] at 21:06 EDT Is the beta testing all sewn up or would you be interested in a Falcon 030 owner, (me)? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 26 Sun Aug 22, 1993 A.DIPIETRO at 11:04 EDT Can you give some more details about the Task Manager? Also, can the TM be installed under regular MultiTOS/NewDesk? (ie, could it potentially be sold as separate utility?).... Anthony ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 27 Sun Aug 22, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 16:26 EDT Anthony, The TM has no functions outside of Geneva. So it won't do any good if you install it in any other use. Did you get Dan Wilga's beta docs? Or do you mean you want more info than he has in those docs? Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 28 Sun Aug 22, 1993 A.DIPIETRO at 19:25 EDT Oh...I don't even have Geneva yet! Sorry for the confusion...I guess I just wanted to know more about what the Task Manager does and what you can do with it (ie, kill jobs, start jobs, etc.) Thanks....Anthony ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 29 Sun Aug 22, 1993 JRH [Roger] at 19:34 EDT Dan, I have not had nearly enough time available recently to play with my system under Geneva to the extent that I would have liked, and it is so different that I find myself going back to my standard HotWire/MaxiFile setup most of the time. Nevertheless I thought I would pass on a couple of things that I have noticed so far. Some of this may just be a matter of getting used to a different user interface. - Word Perfect: most troublesome is the loss of the information line at the bottom of the window. I use that a lot to keep track of what I am doing. Also, as others have noted, the busy bee and the fact that you cannot close the last window without exiting WP is an annoyance. (I know that putting WP to sleep gets rid of the window, but that is just one more thing to do.) - EdHak (as a program) seems to occasionally leave a ghost cursor on the screen, sometimes blanking out some text. In fact, I just did a couple of file saves, and the first three characters of the file are blanked, and a black rectangle - looking ever so much like a cursor, but not one - is left at the top of the screen. Happens every time I save the file. It is cosmetic only, the info is really still there, and eventually seems to reappear. - I do not seem to be able to get Aladdin to multitask. It defaults to single tasking, and seems to want to stay that way. I have tried using the Task Manager and selecting Flags. The Execution Flags window appears to be missing entries for "Multitask" and "Limit window handles" which are both described in the Geneva.txt document, but are not in the window. All the rest of them are there, as described. In fact, I can not edit the Name and Desc fields in that window, either. - First Graph seems to give me some rather strange bleed through from the data window to the graph window. The graphs draw fine, but around the graph, still inside the window, the background that shows is parts of the data window. Very distracting. - MaxiFile (as an accessory) seems to lose its trash can icon after it is used for the first time to delete files. I end up with just a grey square with no icon in it. Still works, just no icon showing. BTW, I often find that when I am in the file selector I would like to be able to use Maxifile. Any chance of being able to include a "Maxi" button in your file selector that would jump you to Maxifile. Or as an alternative, put your file selector in a window, so that the desk accessories were still available. On the positive side, I have been using Geneva all day today, switching between Word Perfect and Phasar. I have been putting them to sleep when not in use, so basically using it as a task switcher. But it is making the job I am doing a whole lot easier. And it has stayed very solid working this way (but I sure would like that info line back in WP!) I like it, but it's going to take some getting used to in order to be really comfortable with it. - Roger (This is being sent with Aladdin operating under Geneva - in single tasking mode - with Word Perfect and Phasar still there, but asleep.) ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 30 Sun Aug 22, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 19:46 EDT Dan, On my F030/14 TASKMAN.ACC dies with a buss error if I have pinhead loaded & set to not clear any memory. If all of the sources needed to compile TASKMAN.ACC are on the disk, I may check & see if I can fix that. Also, I still get the error alert -1 on the Falcon. When I get this alert, I can no longer open any new programs or accs. I have to quit Geneva. Any idea on a possible work around? --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 31 Mon Aug 23, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 03:15 EDT Roger, How did you get WordPerfect to work under Geneva? I can't, and I have tried all the suggestions offered on line by Dan, Al and other learned friends! Al, I now think my Cardfile problem, (messed up display etc)is connected with running Hotwire on top of Geneva and Neodesk, which I sometimes do, since I have much more stuff set up in Hotwire than I have at present in NeoDesk. The problem has re-appeared in this set up, and it affects Aladdin as well. This editor, for example, was messed up in much the same way as Cardfile. Since you don't have Hotwire, you would not have met the problem at all. Eventually, I hope Hotwire will be made Geneva compatible, and then I will have a choice of the two as program launchers. I find neither quite replaces the other. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 32 Mon Aug 23, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:29 EDT Anthony, Yes, I understand. The Task Manager allows precise control of the way Geneva handles all applications and the way it presents dialogs, for example. It also lets you select a font and size for the GEM menu bar and the overall size of GEM windows, so that windows are proportionately smaller than the usually are. The TM can also kill running aps or put them to sleep. (But Geneva can do that without the TM running, also.) There are MANY other features. Roger, WP misbehaves under Geneva, and Dan realizes this. But you don't need to put it to sleep manually when switching to another app; just run it as a single- tasking app, and it will go zzzzzzzzzzz when you switch to something else. The problem setting flags seems to have happened to others, also. You *can* change the flags easily under Geneva, but not the way you are trying to do it. With the TM window on the screen, choose "File" and then "Flags," and then to a fast-forward (if necessary) to the Aladdin flags and change them. Make sure you save the settings through the TM's "Options" menu. Also make sure that the filename for each application in the "Flags" listing is exactly the same as the filename on disk. In some earlier betas, Dan preconfigured Aladdin based on a filename that didn't match my copy of Aladdin (he had STALAD.PRG and mine was ALAD.PRG). I know he's changed that for later versions, but check yours anyway. The MaxiFile cosmetic problem is also a known bug (in Geneva, apparently, not in Maxi). Which version of EdHack are you using? As far as getting Aladdin to multitask, it WILL do so, but not while it is actively manipulating the serial port. This is not a problem with Geneva, with with the way Aladdin is written. Bill, HotWire doesn't yet support multitasking under Geneva, so you are, in effect, eliminating multitasking when you launch apps under HotWire. You are also adding quite a layer (and slowing the system down) when you run Geneva=>NeoDesk=>HotWire=>Application. This is not the optimal way of doing things. If you haven't already, you may want to consider making more efective use of NeoDesk's macro facility to launch applications. I don't want you to give up on HotWire, which is a fine utility, but I am merely suggesting that, under Geneva, NeoDesk is a better program launcher. If you haven't already, download my Secrets of NeoDesk (NEOSECRT.LZH or .ZIP, something like that) from the library, for help in using the NeoDesk macros. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 33 Mon Aug 23, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 16:04 EDT JRH, WordPerfect: I know about the problems. EdHak: Are you using the most recent version? I will try this with the 3.01 I have. There is a pre-defined entry for Aladdin which has it set to single-task on purpose. I do not suggest that you use Aladdin in multi-tasking mode. If you really want to change it, though, you can do so by selecting "Flags" with no filename selected in the TM window. Then, hold down Next until you get to the right filename. First Graph: This sounds like it may be a bug in First Graph. Try using your system without Geneva, but with at least one desk accessory which uses a window (like CONTROL.ACC). Run First Graph and open the DA. Now, try dragging the DA's window. Does First Graph redraw correctly, or does it write on top of the DA's window? If it does write on the DA's window, then this is something I can do nothing about. Otherwise, it may really be a bug in Geneva. Maxifile: Yup, I know about that. Flakes, Due to the closeness of the final release we are, for the most part, no longer shipping beta copies. Al, This is the behavior of the 0.95 release? It has always worked fine for me. You just have to make sure it is set to: shell c:\neodesk3\neodesk.exe Notice, this is *not* neoload.prg! John H., In order for NeoDesk to know that a disk's contents have changed, you have to be using it as the "shell" program, as described by GEM.CNF. (You also have to be using NeoDesk 3.04, and the "Automatic shell window updates" Misc. option has to be on, too.) This is just an unfortunate side-effect of having a multitasking system. Kevin, Are you using MultiDesk? If so, I suggest you go back a few message from me and read my comments there. Aside from that, is it a specific program which causes this to happen? Do you have Limit Memory on at all? The final docs will be in English. Completely. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 34 Mon Aug 23, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 17:56 EDT Dan, Yes, the shell command was written properly. But I'm no longer using .95, so I'm not able to swing back to it to recheck its behavior. It's moot, anyway. BTW, to all who dabble in DOS machines, here's a tip: Don't use a construction that has an equal sign ("shell=C:\etc"); it won't work. Dan, would it be too much non-essential work to allow the "=" to exist in that kind of statement? Al (Documentation that's all in English, eh? We'll see!) ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 35 Mon Aug 23, 1993 JLHOFFMAN [John Hoffman] at 23:35 EDT >John H., > > In order for NeoDesk to know that a disk's contents have changed, you have >to be using it as the "shell" program, as described by GEM.CNF. (You also have >to be using NeoDesk 3.04, and the "Automatic shell window updates" Misc. >option has to be on, too.) This is just an unfortunate side-effect of having a >multitasking system. > Dan, I checked these parameters, all is correct. In Version .95 the file system still isn't updating when I return to NeoDesk 3.04. The only reason I wasn't terribly confused is I've seen this happen in MS Windows. I use a arc, lzh, etc front end program and will notice that the files aren't deleted or added when I finish the program. This is running in singletasking mode. John ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 36 Tue Aug 24, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 01:47 EDT Dan, No, I'm not using MultiDesk Deluxe on the Falcon. However, I'm starting Geneva as the GEM autostart app since that is the only way I can use Geneva in 800x600x16 (via FalconScreen). I'll try it on a _bare_ system & see what happens. Hmm... Got the new libs. Thanks! BTW, I have a menu RSC that Interface doesn't like. Should I send it to you so you can forward it on to whomever is working on Interface? --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 37 Tue Aug 24, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 02:53 EDT Thanks, Al. I will certainly stop running Hotwire on top of Geneva. I think you are right, I need to explore NeoDesk more than I did when it was the only desktop I used. I do have your Secrets of NeoDesk, and have profited from it. Further study is obviously indicated! Regards, Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 38 Tue Aug 24, 1993 JRH [Roger] at 07:00 EDT Bill, >How did you get WordPerfect to work under Geneva? I can't, and I have tried >all the suggestions offered on line by Dan, Al and other learned friends! I can't really answer your question. I just ran it with the default parameters that are in the GENEVA.CNF file that came with Geneva. If it's any help, my AUTO folder loads in the following order: XBOOT, JAR10, GENEVA, WARP9_TT, DATALITE, NEOLOAD, CODE_RAM, SPDGDOS, followed by several others which are not like to have any particular effect of their order. It works fine in many respects, but I am starting to find some difficulties as I do more that created, edit and save documents. (See note below) Dan, Running WordPerfect under Geneva last night I discovered that when spell checking a document (which works fine if I just select a replacement word) there is a problem if I select the Edit mode. It throws the system back to the NeoDesk menu bar, which is then active, but nothing works. ie, TaskManager can be selected but it doesn't do anything. I can click on WP again, but it doesn't go back into it (Nor can I put it to sleep). It is just locked up with the WP window there, and the only way to recover is to reset. Al, Thanks for the tip. It worked - I found the multitasking entry and made the change. - Roger ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 39 Tue Aug 24, 1993 E.GORELIK at 11:49 EDT Well, I read Gribnif's file uploads as well As Al Fasoldt's illuminating post (message 2). Geneva sounds just terrific, but one thing gives me second thoughts: you said it's incompatible with the built-in ROM desktop. I just upgraded to TOS 2.06 (via the CodeHeads' TEC board). I am very pleased with the new desktop, but it looks like if I were to get Geneva I would lose all that new functionality and elegance and the TEC board would just sit there in the computer taking up space, generating heat and accomplishing nothing. By the same token, I might as well have stuck with my old TOS 1.00 if I planned to run Geneva. What's the exact story on this? Thanx for any responses. (I'm sure you've had queries like this before.) Eugene ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 40 Tue Aug 24, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 16:39 EDT Eugene, TOS2.06 is a lot more than just a new DeskTop. It fixes lots of problems. And you'd have as much or more functionality with the Geneva/NeoDesk combo than just with the NewDesk. --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 41 Tue Aug 24, 1993 F.GORON [Frank] at 20:37 EDT Hey Dan I thought you said you were shipping a beta program. Well, ya coulda fooled me. Geneva is a pretty slick program. I didn't even bother with the Neodesk 3.04 patch yet.(g) Maybe I'll get around to that tomorrow, I'm having too much fun opening as many programs at one time that I can. One thing that I'm not completely at home with yet is the file selector. Don't get me wrong, it's very nice, but I miss some of the features of UIS 3.32 like 20 Fkey paths vs the 5 currently in G. Also UIS can configure the size of the selector so that depending on the resolution & font size, you can have up to 19 files listed at a time and if you use the multiple column option,either 3 or 4 columns (depending on font size) for a total of 76 (19x4) files listed at one time. Perhaps in the main release there will be more options like this? All in all, great job, Dan. Frank G. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 42 Tue Aug 24, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 22:42 EDT Hi Kevin. I haven't tried using Geneva as a Gem autostart. I usually just start it from the Falcon desktop. I've heard that some people have had trouble that way, but I haven't. I have not had any of the problems you've described. Do you still have trouble without FalconScreen installed? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 43 Wed Aug 25, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 01:30 EDT Al, I spoke too soon. Hotwire is not the (only) cause of my troubles with Cardfile. After using it once to send to That's Write 2, which it did without problems, everything messed up when I attempted to use it again even outside That's Write. When I then tried to use Aladdin to write this message, Aladdin gave me a multi-bomb crash on being run, and I had to reset. Perhaps there is something in That's Write that causes trouble with Cardfile which then affects Aladdin. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 44 Wed Aug 25, 1993 E.GORELIK at 02:18 EDT Kevin-- Having just spent big $$$ for a shiny new TEC board with 2.06 Desktop in ROM, I think you can appreciate how the prospect of having to replace it with Neodesk in software at still further $$$ just so I can get back a desktop more or less like I already have but without the advantage of being ROM-based, in order to be able to run Geneva does not exactly leave me thrilled with excitement. (On the other hand, Geneva does sound nice, indeed.) What sort of problems does it fix? Are you talking about improvements in the GEM user interface or elimination of certain operating system bugs? Thanx for replying. Eugene ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 45 Wed Aug 25, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:24 EDT Dan, NeoDesk's windows aren't updated on my system either, using beta 1.00. I've got it set up properly -- NeoD is running from the SHELL statement, and the TM's option for auto-shell updates is turned on. John, If Windows 3.1 fails to update its windows, check to see if the auto-update is turned on in the File Manager menu. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 46 Wed Aug 25, 1993 C.BINCKLEY [-- Chuck --] at 05:21 EDT Dan, Well, Geneva arrived yesterday, and I wish I could afford to take the week off from work to explore it, but I don't think my boss would quite understand, so I'm hoping I can get some help and/or suggestions here. First - and this is no big surprise, I assure you - Cubase 3.01 DOES NOT WORK with Geneva. Not multitasking, not singletasking, not no way, not no how. I don't have the latest version (3.02) which is supposedly "Falcon-compatible", but I don't know if that means it's _multitasking-compatible_ or just AES 4.0- compatible. I'll ask in their BBS in the MIDI RT, but I get the impression that there are, as yet, no Cubase users with Geneva on a non-'030 Atari... Second - G+Plus appears to co-exist quite peacefully with Geneva, but Geneva gives the "GEMDOS called recursively" error if it is assigned a GDOS font in Taskman's "windows" dialog - although other programs can take advantage of G+Plus's plusses (8^}), Geneva apparently can't... Third - On a related note, if Geneva is set to use the "9 point" _system_ font (the medium font), NeoDesk uses it's medium-resolution resource file - _on a high-res (SM124) monitor!_ This screws up a lot of text displays and windows in various programs. Bummer... Fourth - NeoDesk's windows' vertical sliders always remain full width regardless of the setting in Taskman's "windows" dialog, although other programs' vertical sliders change their width appropriately... Fifth (and final, for now) - occasionally, dialog boxes in various programs are not completely erased from the screen after exiting them. I have "shadows" and "outlines" turned on in Taskman's "dialogs" dialog - just 'cause I like the way it looks - so it may be directly related to these settings, as I haven't had a chance to try to get the problem to occur with different settings. Also - and I have only tried this once, so I don't know if it's a general problem or something specific to using EdHak with Geneva - when I put EdHak.prg to sleep, when I "awakened" it it's window borders were drawn but the editing area was not - changing EdHak's font size, or otherwise forcing a redraw, caused the editing area to reappear, though... Otherwise - WOW! THIS IS WAY COOL! I _never_ thought I'd be able to do this kind of stuff on an old Mega 2 (up'ed to 4 megs)! And so far I haven't seen ANY system slowdown, though I've yet to really torture-test it (my priority is getting Cubase working in multitasking mode)... Oh, yeah, for any MIDIphiles interested - in preliminary tests, Dr.T's X-oR (SOON TO BE Mark of the Unicorn's UNISYN for the Atari!) seems to work okay as a multitasking program! It WAS one of the programs where I experienced dialog box droppings not being cleaned up, though... _THANKS, DAN!!!_ -- Chuck -- ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 47 Wed Aug 25, 1993 JRH [Roger] at 06:52 EDT Dan, > EdHak: Are you using the most recent version? I will try this with the 3.01 Yes, I am using v3.01 of EdHak. > There is a pre-defined entry for Aladdin which has it set to single-task on >purpose. I do not suggest that you use Aladdin in multi-tasking mode. If you >really want to change it, though, you can do so by selecting "Flags" with no >filename selected in the TM window. Then, hold down Next until you get to the >right filename. Thanks to you and Al for the tips on how to change the Multitask setting. I was able to make it work, and I am sure there will be programs for which I want to change it. PHASAR is probably one of them. I'm curious about why you suggest not changing Aladdin to multi-task. I get the impression from some of the earlier messages that Al runs it that way all the time. Are there some specific problems one might expect to encounter? > First Graph: This sounds like it may be a bug in First Graph. Try using your >system without Geneva, but with at least one desk accessory which uses a >window (like CONTROL.ACC). Run First Graph and open the DA. Now, try dragging >the DA's window. Does First Graph redraw correctly, or does it write on top of >the DA's window? If it does write on the DA's window, then this is something I >can do nothing about. Otherwise, it may really be a bug in Geneva. No problem running First Graph without Geneval - all the screen redraws are handled correctly. (That does not mean necessarily the problem is in Geneva. It still could be a matter of how FG handles screen redraws in a multi-tasking environment.) I am running Geneva on my TT at home, as well as a Mega ST4 at work. Same behaviour on both. I have sent you f-mail with a couple screen captures that illustrate the problem - one under Geneva and one not. The place that seems to be a problem is a small band just below the menu bar. I noticed that even the up arrow on the slider bar is positioned too low. I think it shows up pretty clearly in the screen capture. Let me know if it does not come through ok. - Roger ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 48 Wed Aug 25, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:36 EDT Eugene, Yes, you will lose the use of the TOS 2.06 desktop when you run Geneva. You'll also lose: -- The limit of six desk accessories. -- The static restriction on desk accessories. (Under TOS 2.06 and every other ROM-based TOS, DAs cannot be loaded or unloaded once the computer has booted up except through a workaround such as MultiDesk Deluxe.) -- The flat, 2D look of buttons, dialogs and windows. You'll lose a lot more, too, but you get the point. :) But one thing needs to be cleared up. Geneva replaces the AES, not the desktop. If Atari had made the AES and the desktop separate in the many versions of TOS, a Geneva user probably could replace just the AES. But that can't be done with 2.06 or other single-tasking versions of TOS. And another point. The routines in TOS 2.06 that speed up file input and output and that do many other things are not wasted under Geneva. These are not replaced. It is the desktop shell of TOS versions that cannot be used. Finally, Eugene, I'm sure anyone who has spent some time with TOS 2.06 (or the TT version, 3.06) will agree that it is a huge improvement over earlier versions. But it is hardly the same kind of desktop that NeoDesk is. This is a plus, and not a minus; check my Secrets of NeoDesk for a look at what NeoDesk can really do. Besides, since Geneva provides multitasking and TOS 2.06 does not support multitasking, would you have wanted Gribnif to forgo the most significant change in Geneva just to support the 2.06 desktop? Frank, The item selector is quite improved in later beta releases. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 49 Wed Aug 25, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 18:47 EDT Chuck, Which version of G+Plus are you using? NVDI and Speedo work fine as the font manager, but I don't have the TT-specific version of G+Plus and therefore haven't tried it on the TT. The 9-pt font/NeoDesk RSC problem can be worked around by running the 8-pt and 9-pt configurations without a shell. I have had great luck with the 9-pt config, running Calligrapher in two-thirds of the screen and using the rest for DAs and tear-off Cal menus. The redrawing problem is fixed in later betas. But keep in mind that you can redraw the screen with a hotkey; I made mine SHIFT-UNDO, so I could do it one- handed. Roger, Yes, I run Aladdin in multitasking mode, but I am real careful about handling Aladdin -- and I have full daily backups of the entire partition that contains Aladdin and lots of other stuff. I've found it runs better in single-tasking mode, especially in terms of how it handles its own display. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 50 Wed Aug 25, 1993 W.TURCZYNSK1 [Bill] at 20:20 EDT Chuck: Well, finally somebody trying to use CuBase under Geneva. I have v3.02 and like you said it don't run nohow noway. I'm using a STacy4. I wanted to run CuBase and Dr. T's X-oR under Geneva. Like you mention, X- oR leaves a window visible when you quit as I remember. The new Atari X-oR version may still be called X-oR the way I hear it. I think MOTU would like to call it, Unisyn ST. [Bill] ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 51 Wed Aug 25, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 23:04 EDT Does the release version of Geneva run Tos applications in a window better than the current version (I hope, I hope)? Sometimes I find myself going back to Multitos just to use Minniwin.App. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 52 Thu Aug 26, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:15 EDT David, There is no release verson of Geneva yet. :) The current beta doesn't have a finished TOS-windowing facility. Dan is working on it. One of the reasons he has been signing on less often here is the time factor. He's really busy. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 53 Thu Aug 26, 1993 C.BINCKLEY [-- Chuck --] at 08:17 EDT Dan, My previous message made note of a problem with dialog boxes (including the file selector) leaving parts of their boxes onscreen when they exit sometimes. I think I've found the source of this - if I turn OFF either the "outline" OR the "shadow" setting for _outer boxes_ in TaskMan, IT DOESN'T HAPPEN ANYMORE! Either setting alone doesn't seem to cause it. Hmm... However, EdHak 3.01 is still missing its edit screen (only the window borders are displayed until a redraw is forced) when it is awakened after being put to sleep... ...wait a minute! Now I can't get it to do it anymore! Even with "shadows" and "outlines" turned back on! It did it just a few minutes ago - I swear! Okay, I'll check into that some more - at least I got rid of the dialog box debris... -- Chuck -- P.S. I just tried using STalker.PRG to call the CodeHead BBS while I had EdHak.PRG loaded with my Aladdin ATARI_IN.TXT message file - it worked GREAT, except that when I downloaded some files from CHQ, if I did too many other things in EdHak or NeoDesk, the file transfer slowed down DRAMATICALLY - like down to 40% (on my 2400 baud modem) until I stopped doing any keyboard input. Oh well - I don't think that's to be unexpected with an 8MHz Mega... -- C -- ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 54 Thu Aug 26, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 12:23 EDT Chuck, Yeah, I figured CuBase would probably not work. We are trying to contact the authors. G+Plus: That's odd. I'll have to try it. NeoDesk 3 really doesn't do a very good job of working with different fonts. And yes, you're right about it not checking window sizes. NeoDesk 4 will address both of these concerns. Can you give me a specific instance where having shadowed and outlined attributes on will cause garbage to be left on the screen? I had thought I fixed this a long time ago. I'll try that with EdHack. It might be ignoring the window redraw for so weird reason, though... Frank, While the final item selector does have 10 paths that can be selected with function keys, it will not change the number of files viewable at one time, sorry. I am considering doing a totally different kind of item selector, as an option in a future version, which would allow this. Roger, I'll try that. For now, you can probably get by by either setting "Keep menu bar/desktop" on or by settting it for single-tasking. The major reason I suggest you not use Aladdin in multitasking mode is that it leaves lots of files open whenever you have any window open. I have run into a rare situation (twice now) where for some reason TOS got really confused and started overwriting parts of my hard drive that it should not. I am not saying that this is Aladdin's fault; I suspect TOS. I was never able to reproduce this any other way, unfortunately, so I cannot say for certain. Kevin, Feel free to send me the RSC file, along with a description of how to get Interface to mess up. It is possible, though, that the RSC file has one of its sibling/parent pointers wrong. I have seen other editors do this. Al, The reason the = is not there in "shell" is that it is a command, not an env var, like it is on the PC. Now, if you had an env var called SHELL (for some reason), it would be: setenv SHELL=whatever Do you definitely have shell running neodesk.exe, not neoload.prg? I'm a bit mystified as to this not working... John H., What arc/lzh shell are you using? I suppose it is possible for the program to be doing something that would prevent this feature of Geneva from working, though I doubt it. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 55 Thu Aug 26, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 15:16 EDT Dan, It may be something in the RSC. It was originally done in WERCS by another author, then put into RCS8.PRG & edited by me, then edited by me in Interface. However, RCS8 doesn't seem to mind the menu RSC that Interface doesn't like. I'll send it anyway. Well... my Falcon/Geneva problem still persists, even on a bare Falcon. When I start up Geneva (from the Desktop or via the GEM autostart feature of the Desktop) I get a "WINNI process error -33" Alert that I can't seem to figure out. From there Geneva will continue on & seem to work fine, until I get a "- 1" error from EVERY program I try to launch. Hmm... Back to it... --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 56 Thu Aug 26, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 21:26 EDT Chuck, STalker works better as a multitasker when it is run as a desk accessory. The other advantage of running it that way -- and it's a big advantage -- is the fact that as a DA its GEM menu bar is inside its main window. When it runs as a program, the GEM memu bar is at the top of the screen. Dan, Thanks for explaining the SHELL vs shell= difference. Maybe you can see that it shows up in the user manual. :) Here's my GEM.CNF: # gem.cnf setenv PATH=.,c:\system\res1,c:\system\res2 setenv ACCPATH=\system setenv ACCEXT=ACC,ACX setenv GEMEXT=PRG,APP,GTP,EXE setenv TOSEXT=TOS,TTP setenv STFAX=E:\APPLICA\FAX2A\ setenv SHOWHELP=\geneva\help\gnvahelp.prg #setenv TOSRUN=\geneva\gnva_tos.prg run \geneva\setmouse\setmouse.prg #runsleep c:\system\command.prg shell c:\neodsk33\neodesk.exe I am running NeoDesk 3.04 (it says 3.03 in the "About NeoDesk" info box, with garbage characters in place of the registered user's name, which is the way 3.04 arrived for beta testing) and a standard suite of DAs and auto-folder programs. I've never seen a window updated yet, and (wrongly) assumed that the version I had didn't support that feature. Now I'm puzzled. Is there something in the configuration (VDI on/off, etc.) that can affect the shell updates? Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 57 Thu Aug 26, 1993 J.GNIEWKOWSK [GE-Lamp ST] at 22:32 EDT Al, I noticed that your path also started out with a period. Any idea what that is for? John ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 58 Fri Aug 27, 1993 D.YERKA1 [DAVEY] at 00:03 EDT Hi Dan... I finally seem to have STalker running more or less OK with Geneva in multitasking. Now is seems to miss only the first Prompt reply text when signing on (i.e. the CONNECT 2400 for Genie for instance). If I st watch for the connect and not for any specific text and send the reply string everything after that works OK. For everyone else having problems getting programs up under Geneva a few suggestions: (1) TURN OFF THE FAST LOAD BIT...you would be amazed at the programs that expect memory all cleared. (2) get rid of PinHead if your using that program for the same reason as (1). (3) Turn off the Fast Load option in the latest versions of Warp 9... guess why?? (4) Run Geneva as close to the first running program in your AUTO folder as possible. If possible run POOLFIX(if needed), GENEVA, NEOLOAD, then the rest of your auto programs (of course its OK to use XBOOT in there at the start to help order things ) (5) DON'T USE THE LIMIT MEMORY FLAG SETTING IN THE GENEVA/TASKMAN MENU it seems to cause some problems with a number of programs. Otherwise, don't knock Geneva for the quirks of older programs which were never expected to run under multitasking. Remember Dan would have things * a lot * easier if he didn't need to make Geneva backwards compatible. Look at Microsoft, they have this building with about 100+ programers hammering away on Windows to meet the quirks of all those Dos programs and look what they have. It's the story of the Dancing Bear: sometimes its not how well he dances...its that he dances at all. Dave Y. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 59 Fri Aug 27, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 00:25 EDT Oops... I can't see what I'm typing in the dumb terminal under multitos on GEnie. --Kevin Umm.. Dave, My reports of things in Geneva come from my working with my own software which ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 60 Fri Aug 27, 1993 E.GORELIK at 02:49 EDT Al--thanx for your typically knowledgeable and highly illuminating response. I have downloaded your file 26714 from the library. Eugene ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 61 Fri Aug 27, 1993 MIKE-ALLEN [NM~SysOp] at 10:52 EDT John G. Normally the period in the PATH environment variable means "current directory." Mike Allen ST HelpDesk~SysOp ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 62 Fri Aug 27, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 18:51 EDT PG-Kevin, >> Hmm... I seem to get a "xxx.PRG exited status -1, drive >> data may be damaged" alert quite often while running >> Geneva on my Falcon with 14meg ram & oodles of HD space. >> I haven't figured out what seems to trigger the problem >> yet. I've recently installed an AdSpeed on my Mega4 ST and seen that error a lot as a result. What I've done in my setup is 1) turn the Blitter off -always- and 2) turn the Fastload option off in Warp 9. This has cured the problem. I think that I only need the Blitter off, however, to fix this; having Fastload on is OK. Try turning your Blitter off and see if its cures your problem. ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 63 Fri Aug 27, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 21:58 EDT Mike, you _can't_ turn off the Falcon's blitter. Anyway, I use a Falcon and don't get those message. I believe that Kevin's problems have something to do with his 14 megs of ram. After all he's the _only_ person I know with a 14 meg Falcon and he's also the _only_ person having his particular problems. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 64 Fri Aug 27, 1993 VANDENHEUVEL at 22:26 EDT Al, do you think you could prevail on Dan to let us use whatever file selector we want "all the time"? I get Selectric (my current fave) ALMOST all the time, the exception being when I actually go to the Geneva "open" menu command which brings up Geneva's excellent (but not the one I want to use) file selector. Also here's hoping that mini-win (or something akin to it) is around for the final release of Geneva for TOS apps. --Dirk-- ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 65 Fri Aug 27, 1993 VANDENHEUVEL at 23:00 EDT Dan, have you used the editor EDITH? It's a really nice program (I think it's here on GEnie) and it runs as both an accessory and program. In both cases it has a drop down menu of commands that is part of the edit menu NOT the top menu bar, well the problem is with GENEVA the drop down menu disappears (oops I just realized it's really a pull down menu, the problem being there's nothing to click on to pull down the menu in GENEVA). Can you give any suggestions what's up? or try and d/l it see if it works for you (its small :> ). Thanks --Dirk-- ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 66 Sat Aug 28, 1993 M.TERRY5 [Martin] at 00:16 EDT I too have noticed that the 'Automatic shell window updates' do not work when a task has occurred in single tasking mode... For example. 1. Double click on ARCHIVE.LZH 2. ARCSHELL is launched. Geneva says "Sleep All / Sleep This" dialog 3. Click sleep all. Archiver runs, etc, etc. 4. Drop back to NeoDesk. No updated window! 5. Press ESC to update the window. I have only seen this happen when the flags are set to single task the program launched, and the program alters the desktop display. Martin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 67 Sat Aug 28, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:24 EDT John, A period represents the current folder or root directory. It's superfluous, probably, since the bare comma also does the same thing. A "." means the place where you are now. A ".." means the place one level closer to the root. Davey, Good advice on the FL bit. I've been saying that, too. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 68 Sat Aug 28, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:36 EDT Mike Allen, Dan wrote the variable handler so that the period works, and so does nothing at all. As in: path c:\geneva,,c:\bin path c:\geneva,.,c:\bin path ,c:\geneva,c:\bin path .,c:\geneva,c:\bin Dirk, Ahem, I hadn't realized the alternate item selector won't show up from the Geneva menu. I'll try to find out why. Dan will see your message; he's all- knowing. (Just kidding! There are a couple of things he doesn't know, but it's just that he doesn't know he doesn't know them.) Ah, we're all waiting for the TOS windowing app, too. As for Edith, it's not Geneva that causes problems with Edith, it's Edith itself. It has trouble displaying its menus properly even without Geneva. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 69 Sat Aug 28, 1993 VANDENHEUVEL at 15:31 EDT Al, if the problem's with Edith I hope they fix it soon. It wouldn't even bother me (since it saves the file if you close the window) if there was a keyboard shortcut for printing..argh! Just as an aside while I still have the sporadic hiccup with Geneva, I think it is a great product and everything I was led to believe MultiTos was going to be (and yes I bought MultiTos too). Once Dan releases the finished Geneva with the TOS thing sorted out (and that new Warp 9 w/the Speedo fix comes out) I'll be pretty much set with my STE..unless someone brings in that new 8MB expansion board, then I'll have to get that..:> (in other words-great job Dan) --Dirk-- ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 70 Sat Aug 28, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 18:47 EDT PG-Kevin, >> Hmm... I seem to get a "xxx.PRG exited status -1, drive >> data may be damaged" alert quite often while running >> Geneva on my Falcon with 14meg ram & oodles of HD space. >> I haven't figured out what seems to trigger the problem >> yet. I was having a similar problem to that also recently. My problem was caused by the fact that I just installed an ICD AdSpeed in my Mega4 ST and had failed to turn off the blitter chip. I suggest that you try turning off the blitter chip in your system permanently and see if your problem clears up. ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 71 Sun Aug 29, 1993 MIKE-ALLEN [NM~SysOp] at 00:38 EDT Mike Squire, you can't turn off the blitter in a falcon. Mike Allen ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 72 Mon Aug 30, 1993 R.WHITTAM [Ron - ABUG] at 00:30 EDT OK. If Geneva is multitasking, why does it need MTOS? Won't that take up a lot of memory? I am seriously thinking about runing Geneva on TOS 1.4 with Atari Works in a 4 meg Atari STf computer. Is this just silly? Or will it work? Ron - ABUG ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 73 Mon Aug 30, 1993 C.BINCKLEY [-- Chuck --] at 04:45 EDT Al, ...so one of "couple of things" Dan doesn't know would be the fact that he doen't know that he doesn't know them - What's the other?(8^})... -- Chuck --(assuming anything Dan doesn't know, Al does!)... Ron, No, Geneva does _NOT_ need MultiTOS! In fact, I would assume the 2 programs would be completely incompatible, since they both do much the same thing (but in different ways). Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Geneva was capable of running MultiTOS, although it would be totally redundant - but I would be _amazed_ if MultiTOS could run Geneva! You may be talknig about MiNT - which is supplied as part of MultiTOS and, from what I understand (having never used MultiTOS) is primarily only needed for running _TOS_ and _TTP_ programs in MultiTOS's multitasking environment. The current Beta versions of Geneva do NOT support MiNT, but the release version (allegedly) WILL. NOTE: I have been able to run a couple TOS and TTP programs under Geneva, albeit in singletasking mode, via the NeoDesk CLI - a separately available program from Gribnif; and Geneva Beta also comes with GNVA_TOS.PRG, a _very_ early and incomplete version of a TOS-in- a-window program (which, so far, I haven't spent much time with, so I can't comment on how well it works). As for your system - I'm running Geneva (and NeoDesk 3.04) on a Mega 2 (upgraded to 4 megs) with TOS 1.4 (it's actually _1.04_ - but you probably already knew that) and almost everything runs GREAT! I don't have AW yet (hoping to get a good price on it at Glendale!) but from the messages I've seen, _many_ people are running it successfully under Geneva on 8MHz ST's! Conclusion: there is NO reason NOT to get Geneva, if you have ANY desire to multitask on your Atari! It is an AMAZING piece of programming, and by all accounts is IMMENSELY more useful AND useable, at least on 8MHz machines, than MultiTOS! Recommendation: BUY IT! YOU WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED! -- Chuck -- ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 74 Mon Aug 30, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 06:52 EDT Ron, 1. Geneva doesn't need MTOS. Not sure how that confusion got started, but it does NOT need MultiTOS. 2. It takes up something like 130K. Maybe less. (The release version and the beta versions vary.) 3. It runs just fine on a computer like yours. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 75 Mon Aug 30, 1993 J.DINGA [Jolly Jon] at 23:30 EDT Dan, Considering that there is a possibility of a CartPort based GEN GENEVA, would it be possible to have these EPROMs also used in a tinyturbo board, so I wouldn't have to tieup the cartport, and use it for a scanner etc etc while useing GENEVA.....etc.......JON ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 76 Tue Aug 31, 1993 J.SAFFER [JASON SAFFER] at 00:31 EDT Roger, when you say Geneva eliminates the status line at the bottom of the WordPerfect window, are you saying it eliminates the line that tells you where the cursor positon is in terms of the line and space on that line the cursor is at? If that's true, that's a crucial feature of WP for me. Please let me know. And, is this going to be corrected in the full-fledged release version of Geneva, Gribnif? - Jason Saffer Hercules, California Monday, August 30, 1993 3:08 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 77 Tue Aug 31, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:34 EDT Chuck, Nice post. I'd like to emphasize something that can be read two different ways in your message. TOS and TTP applications run just fine under Geneva; always have, always will. They don't multitask, that's all. The TOS-in-a window app that Dan is writing (which is in early beta form in the hands of many of us) will run them concurrently. And the other thing Dan doesn't know is that writing a good multitasker for the ST is impossible. And bees can't fly. Hummingbirds can't hover. :) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 78 Tue Aug 31, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 10:47 EDT Martin, Hm! Maybe this problem is specific to running single-tasking apps. I will look into it further. Dirk, The reason you won't ever get a replacement file selector in the "Open" menu or from the Task Manager is that they use a different, more robust call, which is not backwardly compatible with old item selectors. Sorry. Edith is already on my list of "things to look at." John G., The first period is optional. Both "PATH=,c:\foo" and "PATH=.,c:\foo" mean the same thing. A single "." is an old MS-DOS carry-over which means "the current directory", just like ".." means "the parent directory." Al, I assume you finally have the correct 3.04 files. Let me know if the window updates work properly. Kevin, The WINNIN message is due to the fact that when run as a program from the desktop, Geneva 0.95 always tries to run WINNI.PRG. This was something I originally did for testing purposes, but accidentally left in the beta. The only way around it is to start Geneva with the name of some other program you really do want to run as a parameter. I'm still intrigued by the -1's. Do you get bombs? Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 79 Tue Aug 31, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 11:34 EDT Dan, No, I never get a bomb. It just loads the program from disk, pops up the -1 alert about disk data damaged (which it isn't) and then I press OK and return to NeoDesk3.04. (NeoD is _not_ set to unload). Also, the same problem happens if I dump NeoDesk & just start programs from Geneva directly. Is there anything you'd recommend I try that will help you figure out what's going on? :) I've had to resort to M-TOS until I can get Geneva stabilized. :( BTW Dan, I have a new MTOS beta that incudes ToolBars, and lotsa other nifty stuff in the AES. Will you be supporting those calls? Oh yeah, don't forget my icons that can be placed anywhere in a window (ala Mac) in NeoD4.0. :) I just had to remind you. :) --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 80 Tue Aug 31, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 13:07 EDT Jon, Well, right now it looks as though there won't be a cart version of Geneva. With the new item selector, it's gotten too large to fit into 128K without compression (which would defeat the purpose of having it in ROM, since you'd have to de-compress it into RAM.) Jason, Yes, it's the line where current line/row info appears. And, yes, it will be fixed, since I know what's wrong, I've just been avoiding adding yet another flag to fix it . Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 81 Tue Aug 31, 1993 MIKE-ALLEN [NM~SysOp] at 21:13 EDT Dan, please, while the . and .. are MSDOS functions, they were "borrowed" from unix! (Between unix and CP/M, MSDOS had very few, if any, original ideas except for using the stupid \ for a separator instead of the /) Of course, as you have stated, they have been in TOS since 1.0 BTW, will Geneva/NeoDesk upgrades be available at Glendale? Do I need to throw my NeoDesk 3.03 disk and manuals into my fly-away kit along with my STalker/STeno stuff? Mike ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 82 Tue Aug 31, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 21:48 EDT Well! I installed Geneva today. A very short while ago, in fact. Much quicker than I anticipated. Now, however I am lost. How does one get to where the flags are set? I have task manager running (loaded as .ACC) but can not see anyway to get to configure things. I've read the doc's. I have. I'm sure I'm missing something, but I can't seem to grasp it. Well, I'm going to read them again after I log on/off. So far, I will figure any problems or crashes have been operator error. I _am_ after all, experimenting! Looks great so far, Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 83 Tue Aug 31, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 22:19 EDT Color my face red! Bright red! I knew it had to be something simple. Needless to say, I found the flags, etc. stuff for taskman. Du-uh! Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 84 Tue Aug 31, 1993 JRH [Roger] at 23:15 EDT Jason, Yes, that's the line I'm talking about. You lose the cursor position information, as well as the indications of bold, italics, etc. I thought that I could not use WP without that info, but I find that the ability to easily switch between WP and other stuff is so useful that I tend to put up with that limitation to get the task switching advantage of Geneva - although I would like to see it fixed in the final release (or next beta version, whichever we see first.) I still find I tend to go back to my non-Geneva desktop if I am working with large complex documents. If you do not yet have Geneva, do not keep yourself from getting it just because of this problem. You will be missing a lot if you do. - Roger ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 85 Wed Sep 01, 1993 J.WISNIEWSK2 [Jeff - ST'er] at 00:40 EDT Has anybody found a conflict/problem with Abbreviator ST and Geneva?. What happens is when you are using the cursor keys to move around, you end up getting two bombs. Note that I was running Abbreviator from MDD where it was loaded in as a resident accessory. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ JSW ^^^^ ^^^^ ST'er ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Tuesday, August 31, 1993 - 11:53:04 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 86 Wed Sep 01, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 01:36 EDT Jason, Keep in mind that reports of oddities with the behavior of some apps under Geneva may not apply to all versions of Ataris. Don't judge the WP situation so quickly. The only oddity I've seen is a cursor that was smaller than usual. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 87 Wed Sep 01, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:44 EDT Jeff, Does Abbreviator run OK as a normal DA? When a DA is run as a resident DA in MDD, you gain no advantage in memory requirement over installing it as a normal DA. See if it runs OK like that. Check the fast-load bit, too. Is your beta 0.95? Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 88 Wed Sep 01, 1993 J.WISNIEWSK2 [Jeff - ST'er] at 20:24 EDT Al, Version 1.00, no fst-bit, and all the problems that I have been having have disappeared when I stopped using it. Let me try it as a regular accessory, come to think of it I was having Geneva load it in as one bypassing MDD. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ JSW ^^^^ ^^^^ ST'er ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Wednesday, September 1, 1993 - 8:13:50 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 89 Wed Sep 01, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 21:52 EDT OK, Just had to re-set my first flags. The default flags for 1st Word Plus were getting me up to being able to select which file to open. Then, the screen would freeze. Mouse clicks (heck- couldn't even see it) nor key commands would work. Tried to up the limit memory to 500k, same thing. Only worked when I de-selected limit memory. (mutitasking on, of course) ------- Later that day.... Well, I am having a problem with running Diamond Back II as Multitasking. It works fine, if I use only one floppy drive, but if I use the A (internal) and the B (external) there is no way to tell DB that drive B is ready. Normally just pressing the B key will 'tell' it to continue to the B drive. With the Multitask flag set, the B keypress activates the NeoDesk macro and opens a window with the B drive directory which then gets pushed down the DB window as the list of files being restored is written. I tried to change the NeoD macro, (saved the config.) then tried it again. No response at all with the B keypress. Anyone have a similar experience? Must I use DBII in single task mode only? Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 90 Wed Sep 01, 1993 VANDENHEUVEL at 23:24 EDT Dan, thanks for the explanation re:item selectors. However, I now have a new question :>.. is there a way to lauch a program as a single-tasking application without setting it's flags first? Something along the lines of CTRL+Double-click or something?? Also some programs do not seem to give me the option to turn the multitasking option on or off in the program flags part of TASKMAN, the whole line with multitasking is missing... --Dirk-- ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 91 Thu Sep 02, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 00:22 EDT Dan, I believe that I have discovered a problem that exists with STeno that I did not have prior to using it in conjunction with Geneva. When using STeno and Geneva together, STeno seems to be unable to use the Paste command to paste text in from the Clipboard unless one first uses the Cut or Copy command from STeno to put text in the Clipboard. To give you a for instance, I regularly use STeno in conjunction with ST Aladdin to copy a roundtable message (or library file description) to the clipboard and then open STeno to paste it in, using STeno as a buffer to collect many messages pertaining to the same topic or format (or print) the message prior to saving it. In the past, this method worked well; however, since I've begun using Geneva, STeno seems to be unaware where the Clipboard's SCRAP.TXT file is located initially until it Cuts or Copies some text there. Are there any flags that I could set in Geneva that would fix this problem or does STeno need to be modified with a new version that is more Geneva aware? ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 92 Fri Sep 03, 1993 J.RENNER1 [Kheldar] at 00:04 EDT Mike, There is a "clipboard" CPX that i picked up somewhere that allows you to set the directory for SCRAP.TXT and other clipboard files. This might help. If i remember correctly it was in the new XControl Panel that was recently uploaded. Jim. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 93 Fri Sep 03, 1993 R.WHITTAM [Ron - ABUG] at 00:12 EDT Thanks for your comments on GENEVA and the 8Mhz Atari ST. Hmmmm, did they PAY you for that plug Seriously, from what I have heard, and the experience a few of our user group members have had with Gribnif's NEODESK, I am certain that I will get it. Let's see: GENEVA, NEODESK, WARP 9, and AtariWorks. That ought to take a bite out of the old paycheck. Thanks again. Ron - ABUG ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 94 Fri Sep 03, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:26 EDT Matt, I use GOOD.TOS (love it, always have) as my backup program, so I can't tell you about DBII, except that in principle, any backup software should run in single-tasking mode *unless it's made to multitask.* There are valid technical reasons for this. Dirk, You're setting the Program Flags in a way that you should not be. (I wish there were a gentler way of saying this!) Don't set the flags by selecting the name of the application and then accessing the "Flags" menu; do it by dropping the "Flags" menu down *without any app selected.* Try what I am talking about and you'll see the difference right away. There are a couple of ways to run apps as s-tasking without going thru a lot of trouble. One is to make a generic flag (*.PRG) that runs all apps not specifically listed as m-taskers as s-taskers. This is pretty radical, but will work. Another is to rename apps that you know must run as s-taskers with a "_" as the first character, and set up a flag for those in this manner: "_*.*" .... But the idea of being able to launch any new app as a single-tasking program on the fly is a good one. My guess as to why Dan hadn't included that option is that Geneva's multitasking is basically an always-on proposition, and works wonderfully. Reducing G to what amounts to a task switcher turns it into Geneva Lite, so I think the idea of having multitasking active unless it is specifically turned off makes more sense. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 95 Fri Sep 03, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 21:48 EDT How do you get Atari Works to print in the background? On my Falcon, with Geneva loaded (and no desktop, to save memory), once I start Atari Works printing, clicking with the mouse under the "Works"/Desk menu item does nothing. Alt-tab also does nothing. I'm locked into printing. I can't access the Task Manager Acc. Background printing is the main reason I might want to multitask. Is there a way? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 96 Sat Sep 04, 1993 J.ZORZIN [Joe.Z.] at 09:36 EDT Speaking of Atari Works- I'd like to see a topic on it in the bulletin board. Some thoughts about Geneva- after struggling for several days to get my Neodesk from 3.02 to 3.04 I finally succeded with help from Dan and you folks here. I now have Geneva installed and am playing with. But- I wonder what am I going to do with it? Is it a real productivity enhancer or just a toy? It certainly is an impressive piece of software. When STeve Jobs started this GUI revolution (I know he didn't originate it- he just commercialized it) his idea was that a computer should be like a toaster. Easy to use with little or no knowledge of what made it work. But with the ever increasing sophistication of the GUI world we are getting back to where only Power Users have any idea of how to make use of this stuff. Using Geneva or Windows or System 7 is not for those feint of heart or week of brain. As I've noticed reading in this topic and with my own efforts to go multitasking there is a great deal of confusion about setting up configuration files, having the correct order of AUTO folder programs, which programs work at cross purposes and dealing with them, moving information system wide, etc. Although the typical computer user is getting more sophisticated I think we are getting to the point where many people would just as soon go back to basics. Its like in the middle ages when astronomers built ever more complex models of the heavens with multilevel epicycles that got them further away from the truth. I think that a computer maker who would rethink this development and come up with a new simplified synthesis of the latest trends could make a killing. We could have the "power without the struggle." Now if only Atari would realize this: build a new computer from scratch- that has the worlds most friendly GUI- I think it would sell millions. Or perhaps GRIBNIF could go into the hardware business and come out with what will be known as the "worlds most friendly computer loved by tens of millions world wide"- as I quote from my crytal ball. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 97 Sat Sep 04, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 09:46 EDT David, As I noted in the AW topic, use GEM Spool for all your printing. It is the single best print utility for the Atari line, ever. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 98 Sat Sep 04, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 10:59 EDT 1. Is Gem Spool available here on GEnie? What's the file #? 2. I thought Print Spoolers were just for Ascii. I have a 120 page SpeedoGdos document. Will Gem Spool work with that? 3. Why do I even need a Print Spooler with Geneva or Multitos? That seems a bit like cheating to me. If a multitasking environment can't handle background printing, then it doesn't seem very powerful to me. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 99 Sat Sep 04, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 11:42 EDT Kheldar, I've had a lot of trouble with the Clipboard CPX (both the original Scott Sanders version and the new one that is contained in the new Atari XControl Panel recently uploaded here). ST Aladdin insists on the SCRAP.TXT file residing on the same drive it does. STeno doesn't care which drive you use, but SCRAP.TXT must be in the root. Calligrapher doesn't care which drive, but doesn't use SCRAP.TXT. EdHak doesn't care which drive or which folder. The CPX can be used to specify any drive or folder, but invariably messes up one of the above applications for me. I've learned that my best bet is 1) don't use Clipboard CPX, 2) put the SCRAP.TXT file on my E:\ drive where ST Aladdin is, and 3) resign myself to the fact that Calligrapher will have its own separate Clipboard which only it will use. Thanks for the suggestion anyway. ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 100 Sat Sep 04, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 13:59 EDT Joe, Atari Works has a very active topic here. Have GEnie run a pass of topics for you. I understand what you mean about the role of Geneva. But come back with your own decision on whether it is Toy or Enhancer after you've used it for a while. My guess is that you will find normal computing very limited without it. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 101 Sat Sep 04, 1993 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 15:08 EDT Like Al said, AW is very active here. Try topic 20 in category 14. It has been around for quite awhile. ~~~~Brian... Written on Saturday 04 September 1993 at 04:06 p.m. ADT ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 102 Sat Sep 04, 1993 R.GRABLE [Richie] at 19:00 EDT Having just acquired a Falcon I was surprised that Geneva won't boot up in 640x480, only a monochrome screen. Need to know what simple little thing needs to be done to correct this. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 103 Sat Sep 04, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 21:38 EDT David, Yes, it's in the library. I don't have all the file numbers handy, but search on SPOOL. No, why would spoolers work only with ASCII? A print spooler coordinates all the print jobs, from all your apps. If one app is printing, Geneva is not going to be able to do anything about the second app that wants to print; that's the job of a print spooler. Traditionally, the only way to get multitasking among printing apps is to spool the output, and that's what GEM Spool does. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 104 Sun Sep 05, 1993 J.WISNIEWSK2 [Jeff - ST'er] at 00:03 EDT Mike, Because of the way Aladdin is written, it always will go to the root of its drive no matter what you do, that cannot be changed except by re-writing Aladdin. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ JSW ^^^^ ^^^^ ST'er ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Saturday, September 4, 1993 - 5:04:58 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 105 Sun Sep 05, 1993 T.CARMAN [Tom Carman] at 01:37 EDT I received Geneva last week but have only started using it a couple of days ago. I moved on Wednesday. Let me tell you it was torture to see those two disks sitting there and not be able to touch them because my computers were all packed. Well, it didn't take me long after I moved to get the old system up and running and give 'er a try. I must say I am impressed. Geneva works wonderfully. Oh, I'm still having to figure out a few wrinkles here and there, but overall it is great. One of those wrinkles that I would like to mention is with the NeoDesk Control panel. It seems that when I have it loaded Calligrapher will not print. Calligrapher runs fine otherwise, but as soon as the print selection screen is called up the program bombs. I tried fiddling around with flags and memory settings in Calligrapher, all to no avail. Then I read in the Calligrapher roundtable a message from another user mentioning a conflict with the Neodesk Control panel (v.3.04) and Calligrapher when printing under Geneva. I tried running every thing as before only without the Control panel and presto it printed. Dan, I don't know what is causing it, but here is a chance for you to work some more of your magic. Thanks for a great program. Tom Carman ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 106 Sun Sep 05, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 10:00 EDT Tom, Cal prints fine on my system, under Geneva, with the Neo CP loaded. Dunno why others have a problem. Which TOS version are you using? Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 107 Sun Sep 05, 1993 M.STEFANI [MCH] at 12:37 EDT Al, Thanks for directing me to this topic area! Geneva sounds very exciting, and I'm hoping to be able to use it with MIDI programs as well as productivity software when it becomes available. Speculation on the release date seems to be later this month. Is this just a general concensus, or reality? Mark Stefani ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 108 Mon Sep 06, 1993 T.CARMAN [Tom Carman] at 01:13 EDT Al, I am using TOS 3.06 on my TT and TOS 2.06 on my MEGA ST4. The TT is connected to my SLM 804. The MEGA is without a printer right now, but in order to test the problem after encountering it on the TT I tried printing Postscript to disk and encountered the same problem. Perhaps you wouldn't mind sharing with me how you have Calligrapher configured. What flags do you have set for it? What are the memory limits you have assigned through CALSETUP.PRG and the percentage? Do you have font caching enabled or not? Tom Carman ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 109 Mon Sep 06, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 02:19 EDT Hi all, After reading in several places that Geneva can open up to 256 windows, I was playing with it some. Hmmmm, I still get a message at 7 saying no more windows available. Is this a RAM thing? I was only opening drive windows. Or is it something penned for the final release. I rarely need even 7 windows open at once, so this is more curiosity than complaint. All and all I am thoroughly enjoying the program. Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 110 Mon Sep 06, 1993 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 23:37 EDT > >J.ZORZIN [Joe.Z.] at 09:36 EDT > >Speaking of Atari Works- I'd like to see a topic on it in the >bulletin board. There is a topic for AtariWorks...Cat 14 Topic 20 >I now have Geneva installed and am playing with. > >But- I wonder what am I going to do with it? Is it a real productivity >enhancer or just a toy? It certainly is an impressive piece of software. > >... his idea was that a computer should be like a toaster. Easy to use >with little or no knowledge of what made it work. > >But with the ever increasing sophistication of the GUI world we are >getting back to where only Power Users have any idea of how to make >use of this stuff. > >Using Geneva or Windows or System 7 is not for those feint of heart >or week of brain. I think that a computer maker who would rethink >this development and come up with a new simplified synthesis of the >latest trends could make a killing. We could have the "power without >the struggle." > > I just had to include most of what you said.....you hit the nail right on the head. I don't know if they know how to make a computer work like that (EASY) Computers arn't this hard in the movies :-) Steve Blackburn ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 111 Tue Sep 07, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 15:23 EDT MCH, We are hoping to release the final 1.00 version at Glendale, and ship out the new ones to the people with the beta version around that time. (Sept. 18- 19th.) Tom C., Thanks for the kind words. This is the first I've heard of problems with Neo Control, but I'll look into it. Richie, The 0.95 version of Geneva cannot correctly set new video resolutions on a Falcon. The only thing you can do is to run GENEVA.PRG from the ROM-based desktop once you are already in the rez you want. And, if you do this, you will have to give it the name of some program (any program!) to run. Otherwise, you will always get an alert saying that WINNI was not found. Needless to say, both of these problems are fixed for 1.00. David F., A multitasking environment can only handle background printing if the program you are running does not prevent it from doing so. There are, unfortunately, many ways that a program can prevent other programs from working at the same time. Mike S., Geneva really does nothing that would affect the way Aladdin and STeno use SCRAP.TXT. It must be something else in the setup. (Internally, all Geneva does is copy the clipboard path supplied by the program either into or out of a buffer; it never uses it for anything at all!) Matt, There is a bug in Limit Memory with the 0.95 version of Geneva. Do not use it. It sounds like you should use DB II in single-task mode. I think that ORA is coming out with a multiprocessing-aware version. Even though Geneva itself can open up to 256 windows, NeoDesk 3 is limited to 7. That's what you are hitting. JRH, I just added an option to take care of this. You'll now be able to see that info in WordPerfect. Mike A., NeoDesk 4 is not ready yet. While we really do hope to have Genevas ready, we might not. If you want to, give us a call on Thursday before the show and if we do, you can have us make sure we bring one with your serial number (so we don't have to ship it to you by mail.) Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 112 Tue Sep 07, 1993 MIKE-ALLEN [NM~SysOp] at 23:43 EDT Dan, Thanks for the info. How about I just EMail you my s/n and then you can do as required if Neo4 is ready. If Neo4 is not ready, but Geneva is, will you be including a Neo3.04 (or whatever) patch? Mike Allen ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 113 Tue Sep 07, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 23:44 EDT Thanks Dan. Soooo, it's the 7 window limit in NeoDesk that's the culpret. Is this limit expanded in Neo4? (even if only within Geneva) Still, a great program. Polish it and let it SHINE!!! See ya, Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 114 Thu Sep 09, 1993 L.HINSLEY [Stargazer] at 01:14 EDT Hey Dan, I think I have found some more problems.... I just tried to run the two Debonair Software programs that are located here on GEnie, SubCalc and Star 2K, and both abort under Geneva when starting with a 'Execution Error: Out of Memory'. They run fine when executed from the desktop. I executed the programs with the Default Flags settings and other flag settings with the same result. ***** Stargazer ***** ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 115 Thu Sep 09, 1993 C.BINCKLEY [-- Chuck --] at 05:18 EDT Steve Blackburn and Joe Z. (and anyone who feels Geneva is complicated or difficult to setup and use), IMH(and unsolicited)O: I don't know about System 7, but I sure hope Geneva never gets to the point of requiring about a THOUSAND pages of text to fully explain how to get it set up correctly - which is what you can end up with in Windows, between the user's guide, the Windows Resource Kit manual, and the various readme files on disk. And believe me, unless you have the cooperation of some PC guru who has already plowed through all that text to figure things out, you're going to NEED those 1,000 pages if you want to get everything working in a really complex system - Windows programs, DOS programs, networks, TrueType fonts, all the .DLL files, .INI files, 386-enhanced settings, which monitor type, expanded or extended memory, linked and embedded objects, etc., etc., etc.... Hey, it CAN be a powerful system, but anyone who thinks they can just load Windows 3.1 onto their hard drive and suddenly beome a POWER USER is sadly mistaken. For instance, where I work, we started off with all DOS software, because the people who run the place and bought the PCs and software didn't, at the time, know Windows from a hole in the wall (8^}) - even though the PCs were bundled with Windows 3.0 installed on the drives. Later they upgraded to MUCH more powerful computers, which had Windows 3.1 on the drives. Somewhere in between they started networking the PCs, and eventually a couple people dared to venture into Windows territory - BLAM! The network was crashing everyday, until someone figured out that Windows on a networked PC HAD to be configured for use on a network. Now, we're talking about your average office PC users, who know how to use the programs they NEED to use, and not much else about computers at all. They THOUGHT this stuff should be simple and staightforward and, basically, plug'n'play - but you and I know better... I'm talkin' 'bout cream-of-the-crop, 16meg RAM, 486DX2 66MHz, 14"super VGA, 300meg hard drive, internal fax-modem, SCREAMERS here...which think they only have 118K of RAM left after Windows is loaded because the folks who use them don't know about TSRs, memory-management, HIMEM.SYS, EMM386.EXE, and so on; I'm talkin' 'bout people who skim through the Windows user's guide and decide that running Dr. Watson is going to explain why they got an "out of memory" error followed by a total system crash requiring a reboot - and then wondering why they can't communicate with their networked printer after rebooting, why WordPerfect 5.1 locks up when they try to retrieve a file, and why deleting half the files on their hard drive doesn't prevent them from getting out of memory errors!!! These are NOT stupid people - they are people who don't care to spend half their waking hours (or more) wading through pounds of documentation to figure out how to write a letter with a graphic of the company logo in the header, and print it on a printer shared by three other computers... In other words, these are the people that Windows is allegedly MEANT to be making things EASIER for! And there are probably MILLIONS like them in small offices around the world! THAT'S Windows 3.1 on almost-state-of-the-art PCs. Compared to that, Geneva is a coloring book with laser-guided crayons to keep you inside the lines...(8^}) When I first started playing around with Windows and Windows-programs on the PCs at work, I started to think that all these cool features were everything my old Atari Mega would NEVER be capable of, and that maybe my next computer would be an "IBM-compatible" - all that speed, graphics power, upgradability, connectivity, etc. Then I started using more Windows programs, trying to use more of the "advanced" features, and so on. Well, as I found out more about what Windows was supposed to make possible, and as I tried to apply that knowledge, the amount of time I found myself spending trying to figure how to do all these wonderful things increased exponentially. I read the user's guide cover-to-cover, I bought the Windows Resource Kit, I printed out and read all the online docs, and I tried to help the other computer users in the office switch from the old DOS apps to Windows versions; and I grew continually more frustrated trying to explain things like why the File Manager in Windows is kind of like the file manager in WordPerfect 5.1, only different. You see, this stuff isn't explained anywhere that a person who only uses one or two programs on a computer is going to be able to find and comprehend very easily. To them, "What's a path?" is just as inscrutable as "What's a linked object?" or "What does it mean 'there is no program associated with this file'?" Anyway, at this point, I started thinking about how much I'd rather have a Falcon, because for my primary computing purposes - music - I didn't need all the B.S., and why make my life more complicated by letting myself get seduced by a system that tries to blow sunshine up my nether regions while it's still capable of running out of memory because one friggin' line may be mistyped in a CONFIG.SYS file, when it allegedly has 16 megs online! ...then I got Geneva... Hey, man, the BETA version of this program is more stable than half the programs I tried to run in Windows! I've even lost interest in the Falcon - at least until Atari releases an '040 version with a higher speed - and am thinking of getting a Tiny Turbo or SST board, or maybe even just an Adspeed or T25, just to speed up graphic stuff. I'm amazed at what I can do with this program NOW, with less than 20 pages of documentation! It has TOTALLY renewed my excitement about owning an Atari computer! . . . ...Whoa! Time for to go to bed! Sorry I rambled on so long here. I just wanted to say something about this before people started to think that setting up and using Geneva was some kind of convoluted obstacle course not worth the hassle. For now, using PRODUCTIVE software on ANY computer remains, at best, an exercise in determination and patience; but with Geneva, I feel, at least, that the rewards are almost immediate, and that now, at least for the AVERAGE computer USER, becoming productive on an Atari computer is MUCH less of a struggle than on DOS machines. Maybe computers interfaces aren't exactly "easy" enough for them to become as common as toasters in people's homes yet - but then, 10 years ago someone with no professional experience whatsoever couldn't publish a professional-looking newsletter in their bedroom, or produce professional-quality recordings on their kitchen table, or any of a number of things that CAN be done TODAY, with these clumsy, obtuse beasts we're all sacrificing our carpal tunnels for... ...And no, I'm NOT on Gribnif's payroll!(8^})... -- Chuck -- ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 116 Thu Sep 09, 1993 M.JONES52 [Jonesy] at 21:21 EDT Chuck, Might fine letter. Intrestin' beasties, these computers, no? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 117 Thu Sep 09, 1993 M.LEE3 [Ekim] at 22:08 EDT Hi all, Is Geneva available now? with Neodesk? I've been busy and haven't been on Genie for awhile. How does Geneva compare with Multitos? Can I send them a Email with my Credit card #? I want it! thanx, Mike L. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 119 Fri Sep 10, 1993 THOMPSON2 [STYVWERX] at 01:27 EDT I would like to know if the newest version of DynaCadd, if they ever release it for the Atari, will work properly in Multitasking mode, such as with Geneva. About the only way I can work it at all, in the present 2.0?? configuration, is to run Hotwire, and then DCAD_TT.Prg, through Hotwire. It then single tasks without too many freezeups. One of the main reasons I wanted Geneva in the first place was so I could run StraightFAX in the background while I used DynaCadd. Silhouette will not run in Geneva no matter what I do. This is not a bitch!! I love Geneva. I realize it is a Beta, and further, that NOTHING can cure the ills of a program which doesn't take the possibility of Multitasking into account. If you have anecdotal evidence on DynaCadd successes, please share them with me. Thanks for a neat program. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 120 Fri Sep 10, 1993 PARADIGM [Mark O'Bryan] at 04:00 EDT I haven't had as much time as I'd like to work with Geneva, but thought I'd better get a few notes uploaded here before Dan wraps things up for the final production release. (I would have gotten them in sooner, but I've been recuperating from an accident.) ------------------------------------------------------- Problem report #1 for Geneva, beta version of Jul15/93: ------------------------------------------------------- DEV-001 (High): Mouse button events The behavior of Geneva deviates from the TOS standard by failing to return double click mouse events when the mouse button state negation flag is in effect. In the following code fragment: events := evnt_multi (MU_MESAG or MU_KEYBD or MU_BUTTON, {flags} { problems --> } 2+256, $0003, $0000, {clicks, mask, state} 0, 0,0, 0,0, {M1 data} 0, 0,0, 0,0, {M2 data} MsgBuf, 0, 0, {Timer-lo/hi} { returning: } mx, my, mbutton, kstate, key, clicks); This returns the left or right button, but never returns double clicks. (i.e., "clicks" is always 1.) Changing just the 2nd line, to: 2, $0001, $0001, {clicks, mask, state} will then return double clicks properly, but only for the left button. The multi-button technique has been tested, and is known to work properly with TOS 1.0 through 3.06, and MultiTOS beta versions. We have not tested it with release versions of MultiTOS. However, Atari has documented that the observed behavior is valid and will be retained. BUG-001 (High): Item selector scrolls In the new item selector, the scroll bars become damaged and inoperable after the first use whenever the Outline attribute is enabled for Outer boxes, in the TaskMan/Options/Dialogs... dialog. With Outline disabled there is no problem. BUG-002 (Medium): Item selector drives In the new item selector, the drive list does not scroll properly over the full list of available drives. For example, with drives A-M avail- able, and: A is selected, it will not scroll beyond J B is selected, it will not scroll beyond K C is selected, it will not scroll beyond L In the other direction, when: M is selected, it will not scroll beyond C L is selected, it will not scroll beyond B ...etc... BUG-003 (Low): Event queue When switching from one process which does not handle keyboard events to another process which does, if keys were pressed, one will be buf- ferred and sent to the newly activated process, potentially causing an undesired action to occur. RECOMMENDATION: the event queue should be flushed of keyboard events before a new task is activated. ----------------------------------------------------------- Suggestions for improving Geneva, beta version of Jul15/93: ----------------------------------------------------------- SUG-001 (Low): Menu shadowing The boxes surrounding a list of menu items should be shadowed for enhanced visibility, to help set them off from the background. NOTE: individual RSC files can be modified to add the shadowed attribute to each menu list, however the standard AES menu handler doesn't properly clean up the bottom-most line of the shadow. The menu handler currently in Geneva cleans up even less. SUG-002 (Low): Menu sizing According to the documents, menus currently scroll if they have more than 16 items. This should be adaptive, and based on screen size, with longer lists for larger screens. SUG-003 (Low): Cursor feedback Better user feedback would be provided if the mouse cursor changed to the open hand when dragging windows, and to a pointing hand when resizing them. SUG-004 (Medium): Window resizing When resizing windows, the double box outline of previous TOS's should be retained, as it provides information not available with the single outline currently used by Geneva. I.e., the user frequently wants to resize windows to fit their *contents*, not the outer box dimensions. SUG-005 (Low): Title bar readability One blank should be added to the front and back of window titles to improve readability. With no space around the titles, they appear "squashed". SUG-006 (High): Navigation accelerator It would be really useful to be able to scroll windows in the opposite direction, without moving the mouse all the way over to the opposite scrolling arrow. E.g., if you were scrolling down by holding the down arrow and went too far, by just pressing the same arrow with the right mouse button you could scroll backwards (i.e., a down-arrow event is transformed into an up-arrow event). This may not be possible due to the semantics surrounding the use of the right mouse button as a shift modifier when manipulating background win- dows. However, the foreground window could have modified semantics. SUG-007 (Medium): Taskman options When the Task Manager loads or saves its options, the "busy" mouse cursor should appear, since it's a fairly lengthy operation. Also, the item selector should appear to select the file to use for option set- ings, so that it's possible to load/save different clusters of options. ------------------------------------------------------- A few questions about Geneva, beta version of Jul15/93: ------------------------------------------------------- ASK-001 (Low): Why are movable alerts & dialogs so flickery, and have the mouse hidden? Several other alternatives manage smooth, flicker-free movement with a visible mouse cursor. ASK-002 (Medium): When running a single-tasking application puts others to sleep, should it not wake them back up when exiting/sleeping? As it appears now, you have to go through the list and reactivate each of them manually, which is slow and clumsy. There are a number of other comments I would add if I had more time, which unfortunately I won't, for awhile. I have noticed several glitches running Geneva, which I'm reluctant to mention since I haven't nailed down the pertinent conditions in a reproducible manner. And perhaps they could be minimized with the proper flag settings. Things like flipping back and forth between Geneva and one application several times, using the torn-away Application menu, and having the menu bar text disappear, or appear one line below the bar and offset two characters to the right, or both at the same time. Or trying to load a document into an application, and having the hourglass go into an infinite spin cycle. But then, I wasn't going to mention those. :-) ((O)) /=\ Mark O'Bryan, Paradigm Software Products [Sep09/93 at 9:32p] /===\ (makers of Omni-Banker ST, the universal MIDI librarian) ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 121 Fri Sep 10, 1993 T.HEBEL [Spud Boy] at 19:55 EDT I use Geneva with SMPTE Track Platinum. It works well. The only problem is if you call an accessory it will not redraw the screen properly (even if you use the Alt-S-UNDO). ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 122 Fri Sep 10, 1993 M.JONES52 [Jonesy] at 20:14 EDT Speaking of paradigms, that's pretty good reporting. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 123 Fri Sep 10, 1993 W.TURCZYNSK1 [Bill] at 21:32 EDT Dan: Did you get any answer from Steiberg or Steinberg/Jones about problems with using CuBase and Geneva yet? [Bill] ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 124 Fri Sep 10, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 22:00 EDT Mark, Geneva is expected to be released soon. More will have to come from Gribnif itself. Tom, I have standard flags Cal except for the mtasking flag; I run Cal single- tasking, since the menus seem to misbehave when I mtask it. (Otherwise it is fine.) I have it set to take 2 megs of memory or 85 percent. I have the font caching on, set for 9 megs. Matt, Geneva doesn't open up drive windows. Your desktop software handles that. Geneva's window limit of 256 is the limit for the total number of windows that can be open at the same time, counting all DAs, desktop windows and app windows. Donwload WINNI and you'll see how one app can open 256 windows under Geneva. Mike L., You may want to read the previous msgs in this topic for an overview. And check the little essay I wrote that is in the file library. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 125 Sat Sep 11, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 00:50 EDT Thanks Al, BTW - Congrats on the promotion! Hope it brings you more than increased work and stress! Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 126 Sat Sep 11, 1993 M.LEE3 [Ekim] at 23:42 EDT AL, Ok thanks. Mike L. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 127 Sun Sep 12, 1993 J.ZORZIN [Joe.Z.] at 08:27 EDT So has anyone figured out how to get Laser C to work properly under Geneva? I have it set up for single tasking and have limited its memory use but it will not compile without crashing the whole system. BTW, my previous comments about Geneva and computers in general were not meant to be a put down of Geneva. It is a towering achievement that Dan would work so hard on a computer that many have given up for dead. Perhaps Geneva will be the CPR treatment that Atari needs. I sat in a computer store yesterday playing with a high end Windows system and was not impressed. When I tried to double click an icon it kept slithering away from me. After several minutes of this I wanted to reach in there and strangle the little monster. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 128 Sun Sep 12, 1993 J.GNIEWKOWSK [GE-Lamp ST] at 16:04 EDT T-Bird, Naw, intelligent posters like Chuck will rarely have problems with anti- posters ('cept maybe someone who has switched-over and feels the need to justify). Absolutley fantastic post. John Gniewkowski Editor, GEnieLamp ST ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 129 Sun Sep 12, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 18:53 EDT Joe, Windows has config files (much like GENEVA.CNF) that allow you to specify a smaller squiggle area forthe icons, but even then they squirm too much. In all, some Windows apps are wonderful; Windows itself is a drag. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 130 Mon Sep 13, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 01:19 EDT Yeah, I just wish there was a decent desktop for my darn '486. I'd kill for a NeoDesk for WinDoze. Only... I'd kill if it were done instead of Geneva for my Atari. I've still got the -1 problem. I can't seem to figure out what the heck is causing it either. --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 131 Mon Sep 13, 1993 R.PLAGGENBUR [Ralph / WA] at 12:18 EDT After the problems I had just getting Neodesk up to 3.04, you new I'd have questions about Geneva. I will try to be as specific as I can, in hopes that someone has been in my shoes before: I ran the install program and used drive C as the destination. I have stripped all ACC's and auto folder programs out except the following: AUTO: DATAlite 2.16 Jar10 Neoload Geneva ACC's: DATAlite Taskman I even switched from ICD boot software 6.05 back to 5.61 Here is what goes on: Computer boots up...auto folder programs display there flags on the screen, then Geneva has a big 2"X5" display...when the curser turns into the regular pointer (from being the bee) I can move it around and select things...which at this time is the Geneva desktop...then the Neodesk desktop comes to life, at the same time the pointer changes to a 3-d type pointer and everything freezes - locksup tight. Now before I stripped down to a bare system. (which is a 1040 ST with 4 megs and TOS 1.04) the Geneva desktop stayed on the screen and the mouse turned into the 3-d type and allthough I could still here the hard drive spinning, I could move the pointer around the desktop, but it was very jerky! If you moved it fast it would dissapear all-together...then lock-up! Have I given enough information for someone to figure out if I'm doing something wrong or have something in the wrong order. I did read the manual 3 times now... Ralph ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 132 Mon Sep 13, 1993 A.DIPIETRO at 20:24 EDT This is off-topic...sorry...but Os/2 2.1 might be what you're looking for rather than WinDoze on a PC...seen demos and stuff and it looks nifty. Anthony ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 133 Mon Sep 13, 1993 N.DAVIS1 [Neil] at 20:25 EDT Joe: I have the compiler, linker, cc, and some other utils all installed as as ram-resident programs in the Laser shell, and they work as normal. But, any attempt to run another program from the shell will lock up, at least on exit back to the shell. So no testing from within the shell, and no RUN from the menu, but otherwise no problems. BTW, I can create a funky re-draw effect by simply engaging the Mandala screen-saver from WARP9. Anyone else notice this? (wrong topic, sorry, but only happens in Geneva) Neil ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 134 Mon Sep 13, 1993 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 21:54 EDT >C.BINCKLEY [-- Chuck --] at 05:18 EDT > >Steve Blackburn and Joe Z. (and anyone who feels Geneva is complicated or >difficult to setup and use), 300 lines later... >...Whoa! Time for to go to bed! Sorry I rambled on so long here. I >just wanted to say something about this before people started to think >that setting up and using Geneva was some kind of convoluted obstacle >course not worth the hassle. Chuck, Chuck, slow down buddy. My comment really had nothing to do with Geneva, I don't know anything more about it than what I read here. Hopefully that will change after the Glendale show. I was basicly referring to computers in general. They are a bitch most of the time , more trouble than anyone ever dreamed they'd be, but also a lot of fun. I loved your story about your cohorts at work, what you people went through was the point I was trying to make. I'm sorry I didn't make it clear as to what I was saying. Let us know more about your Windows saga, I love reading that kind of stuff, especially when I see full blown 486 screamers going for around $1400. I've also thought of buying a clone, and it's stories like that that keep my feet on the ground. The only person I know who really uses a clone has no problems like you mentioned, makes me think about getting one. Then I wake up and realize that what I have is a real decent productive machine for my purposes. Get the T25 if you cant get an 030, it really makes my ol Mega go... Steve Blackburn ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 135 Tue Sep 14, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:15 EDT Ralph, It's not clear where the problem starts appearing. Do you mean that without Datalite Geneva loads OK? The behavior you describe is consistent with another program's interference with Geneva, so you may want to change the loading order. You can do that with NeoDesk's no-sort setting, and then you can resort any of the auto-folder programs. The ICD software won't have an effect, so you can go back to 6.0.5. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 136 Tue Sep 14, 1993 R.PLAGGENBUR [Ralph / WA] at 11:41 EDT Al, I haven't tried to boot without Datalite because if I do then I won't be able to access those partitions. But I did go back just now and move Datalite after Geneva and that didn't seem to make a difference. Here is what happens now: Auto programs load, then acc's load, screen is light green, then the curser turns into the 3-d version, If I move the mouse during this time it will move, but is kinda jurky! Then the arrow disappears for 2-3 seconds and when it comes back it won't move. Now the screen turns light blue for 2 seconds and the NEOdesktop comes alive, as soon as I touch the mouse, the screen blinks and continues to be locked up! Ralph ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 137 Tue Sep 14, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 12:33 EDT Bill T., We have not gotten any response fron Steinberg/Jones. Perhaps if a few of their users call, they will be more willing to talk . Mark O., I'm going to look over your list more thoroughly. A few of the bugs you mentioned have already been fixed. I'll definitely give your suggestion for getting the item selector's scroll bars to mess up a try, since I had not been able to reproduce this one. Thompson2, I don't think that any of the beta testers I have talked to have tried Geneva with DynaCADD 2.0. Mario Perdue is slated to get a copy of Geneva soon, though. Anyone else tried it yet? Mike L., Geneva 1.00 will be available at the Glendale show this weekend, and from your local dealer shortly afterward. NeoDesk 4 is not out yet. If you want to send email with your credit card number, exp. date, and the name appearing on the card, I can process an order for you and have it shipped out sometime in the next two weeks. I'll leave the MultiTOS comparisons for the rest of the "unbiased" folks around here . Stargazer, Those programs were compiled with a Prospero compiler, and version 0.95 of Geneva did not work with programs of that type. 1.00 works fine, though. Mike A., I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what you would be mailing me your serial number in regard to. You have to understand, I see a LOT of messages at one time around here. NeoDesk 4 will not be ready until at least Nov. at this point. We will be shipping the 3.04 patch with Geneva. Matt, The 7 window limit is probably going to go away. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 138 Tue Sep 14, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 13:24 EDT Ralph, Wow. That's really odd. Especially since the mouse movement is jerky. One thing to make sure of: if you have a NEWDESK.INF file or a DESKTOP.INF file, make sure that NeoDesk is *not* set to autoload. You could do this by either loading up without Geneva and using the Atari desktop to turn this off, or you can just rename the INF files to another name (like INX.) Were you running any desk accessories besides Datalite? Did you try it without that, too? If that doesn't solve your problems, then one of the Geneva files must be damaged. I can send you a replacement disk, in that case. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 139 Tue Sep 14, 1993 R.PLAGGENBUR [Ralph / WA] at 17:56 EDT Dan, Al, etc: Well we are making some progress, I got Geneva to boot up, I erased the line in the desktop.inf file that tells neodesk to run. Is that ok? But now the jerky movement has turned into a serious crawl. As I move the mouse the arrow is way behind, if I click on a file it takes 3-4 seconds to highlight. Any further thought? Ralph ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 140 Tue Sep 14, 1993 R.SNYDER6 [Roger S.] at 19:14 EDT Just a quick note about Geneva. I'll been using the beta for a while, and I quite happy with it. I think it has increased my productivity, and I like how it looks and works (though it took a little while to get used to the file selector). I switch back and forth between a St w/ and one w/out Geneva, and do miss it on the one w/out. I find it fairly compatable, some programs needing a little flag ajusting, ususally just making them non-multitasking. Even then the task- switching is very useful. I have had more compatability problems with little utility programs that really didn't do very much. (I still remember a disk status program and something like a clock program that when run together prevented disk writes to my hard disk.) There is more to using Geneva than this, but others have explained it well. All in all, I'm quite happy w/ Geneva. --Roger S. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 141 Tue Sep 14, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 21:07 EDT Anthony, OS/2 2.1 needs 8 megs of RAM to operate well. Nice thing about Geneva is that is needs .15 megs of RAM for itself and even works in 1/2 meg on a 520ST. :) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 142 Tue Sep 14, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 23:53 EDT Should Geneva .95 owners bring their disks to Glendale to get upgraded? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 143 Wed Sep 15, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:25 EDT Ralph, Yes, I have some further thought. Get Geneva to run without a shell, and see what happens. Get back to us. Take out NeoDesk as the shell in the GEM.CNF and remove NEOLOAD.PRG as the auto-running app (if it is still listed that way) in the NEWDESK.INF. Dan made a good suggestion; sometimes the desktop file is auto-running the same shell that Geneva runs, with unpleasant results. Roger, Thanks for the report. Yes, even the task-switching is useful! Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 144 Wed Sep 15, 1993 J.ZORZIN [Joe.Z.] at 06:03 EDT Neil: I still can't get Laser C to compile without bombing. I get a message saying "68000 Exception 02 in Shell." I guess I'll have to simplify the system until I find the cause. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 145 Wed Sep 15, 1993 C.BINCKLEY [-- Chuck --] at 07:08 EDT Steve B. and Joe Z., Sorry, guys - I kind of got carried away there, but this is the only place I can rant like that without having people stop listening as soon as I mention "Atari"(8^})... 'Twasn't meant to be taken personally - I'm so impressed with Dan's efforts on behalf of Atari users (and so frustrated with MANY aspects of "clone" machines), and have seen so many comments along the lines of "why can't you make it do things the way Windows does?" that I just felt I needed to help make sure people weren't tempted to dismiss Geneva because they may have been getting the impression that they'd have to go through some kind of major ordeal to get it set up and working - you guys just happened to post at about the same time I was ready to take a sledgehammer to the Windows machine I use - or rather, _endure_ - at work...(8^}) By the way, Steve, about how much does the T25 go for, and is it pretty much compatible with your software? I see Fast is going to be at Glendale, and I'm considering buying it there (if they can install it there, or at The Computer Network - the only Atari shop in the neighborhood). Viva Atari developers! -- Chuck -- Ralph, For what it's worth, I'm using these same auto programs (along with MANY others), and this is the order they run in my auto folder: Jar10 Geneva DataLite Neoload Hope this helps! -- Chuck -- ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 146 Wed Sep 15, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:46 EDT Chuck, Great post. Thanks. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 147 Wed Sep 15, 1993 R.PLAGGENBUR [Ralph / WA] at 16:44 EDT Al, Dan : I'm starting to feel that something we are taking for granted may be wrong here, I removed the last line in the GEM.CNF and The run NEOLOAD.PRG from my DESKTOP.INF and while Neodesk didn't load the desktop still moves in s l o w motion. I mean you double click on a drive to open the window and and you sit back and watch while it turns the icon black, then a empty box open and from left to right - top to bottom it fills in the scroll bars etc. slow enough totake notes! So I did have problems with upgrading to Neodesk 3.04 fro 3.02, allthough I felt the problem was in updating my desktop and not really the upgrade itself, but here is what I have where! Auto folder : JAR10.PRG 856 NEOLOAD.PRG 8651 NEODESK.EXE 152679 GENEVA.PRG 131421 Neodesk folder : same two neodesk files, same size Geneva folder : SETMOUSE HELP folder GNVA_TOS.PRG 21978 I'm willing to try anything and everything, even live on the phone, just let me know! Ralph *sl ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 148 Wed Sep 15, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 18:09 EDT Dan, I won't be at Glendale... but I'd like to get the 1.0 update asap so I can check & see if it fixes my Falcon problems with Geneva (the -1 mess...). --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 149 Wed Sep 15, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 20:13 EDT Dan, >> Geneva 1.00 will be available at the Glendale show this >> weekend, and from your local dealer shortly afterward. >> NeoDesk 4 is not out yet. If you want to send email with >> your credit card number, exp. date, and the name appearing >> on the card, I can process an order for you and have it >> shipped out sometime in the next two weeks. Is it save to assume that us v0.95 beta testers will be receiving Geneva in the mail soon with no additional action on our part? Also, it would help if you'd provide us with some instructions on how to convert from beta v0.95 to v1.00 (e.g., which files have changed and which have not) as I have invested a considerable amount of time customizing my system (Al, feel free to step in if you know the answer to this one already). Thanks. ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 150 Wed Sep 15, 1993 W.TURCZYNSK1 [Bill] at 20:14 EDT Dan: Exactly who did you try to contact? I gave Rick on CIS two ID#s. Or did you try to contact Steinberg/Jones? They are also here in the MIDI RT too! [Bill] ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 151 Thu Sep 16, 1993 VANDENHEUVEL at 01:03 EDT Dan, I've been getting screwing Item Selector scroll boxes too (only in Geneva's open menu, the rest of the time I get Selectric which looks fine), but I was unable to figure out was causing it as it would only happen every once in awhile, but it has happened. So now you know. :> --Dirk-- are you sending out new versions of Geneva to us beta-testers or will there be a patch?? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 152 Thu Sep 16, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 05:59 EDT Ralph, >> So I did have problems with upgrading to Neodesk 3.04 >> from 3.02, although I felt the problem was in updating my >> desktop and not really the upgrade itself, but here is >> what I have where! >> >> Auto folder : >> JAR10.PRG 856 >> NEOLOAD.PRG 8651 >> NEODESK.EXE 152679 >> GENEVA.PRG 131421 >> For starters, I'd remove NEODESK.EXE from my AUTO Folder, but be sure that it is in your NEODESK3 folder along with a second copy of NEOLOAD.PRG (the first copy of NEOLOAD being in the AUTO Folder like you already have). NEODESK.EXE is not designed to be run from the AUTO Folder by itself. Next, I'd reorganize the AUTO Folder so that my 3 programs run in this order: JAR10.PRG, GENEVA.PRG, and NEOLOAD.PRG. Next, make sure that the GEM.CNF file that comes with GENEVA is in your (C:\) root directory and has a line in it (towards the end of the file) that reads: shell \neodesk3\neodesk.exe NEOLOAD.PRG is designed to be run twice, once initially from the AUTO Folder and then a second time, by TOS, after the desk accessories have been initialized at which time NEOLOAD.PRG runs NEODESK.EXE. This change to your GEM.CNF file is to insure that GENEVA does this second run of NEOLOAD.PRG. Finally, make sure that your DESKTOP.INF file or NEWDESK.INF file that the GEM Desktop creates does -not- have a line in it that reads: #Z 01 C:\NEODESK3\NEOLOAD.PRG@ This line is how non-GENEVA users run NEOLOAD.PRG for the second time and is not needed -if- you use GENEVA. Hopefully, doing these things will fix your problem. ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 153 Thu Sep 16, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:36 EDT RALPH! Glad you showed us your auto folder! You have NeoDesk's main coded in your auto folder. Take out NEODESK.EXE. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 154 Thu Sep 16, 1993 R.PLAGGENBUR [Ralph / WA] at 12:00 EDT Well it seems we knocking this problem out one brick at a time-- I removed the NEODESK.EXE from the auto folder. Here is my next thoght... I looked in the NEODESK3 folder and under the NEODESKM.INF file and about 6 lines down it said ;version 3.03 (My about Neodesk from the desktop says 3.04) so I look at the NEODESKM.INF on the master disk (the one that got upgraded to 3.04 and it says 3.00. So I tried to re-do the upgrade and it skipped all the files stateing that they appeared to be upgraded. So then I quit Neodesk and rand NEOLOAD.PRG from the master 3.04 floppy and when it said "Incorrect NOEDESKM.INF format! Restoring defaults! and upon hitting return gave the plain vanilla Neodesk desktop. Ralph ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 155 Fri Sep 17, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 00:04 EDT Ralph, You may be past this step already, but... the 'plain vanilla' desktop you were sent to is what should have happened, if I remember correctly. One of the RSC files that got changed contained your old icon set, and their placement on your 'old' desktop. The docs suggested you make save your .NIC files prior to doing the upgrade for easy re-installation afterward. Do you have a backup that you could restore from? This may be the long way around, but if you can restore your old Neo set up (move the new files to a new or separate folder _not_ named NEODESK3) you can then create a .NIC file from within Edit Icons, then copy all your icons into it. Delete this old NeoD folder, or overwrite the files in it by copying from where you put your upgraded Neo folder. Then go into Edit Icons and add your old icons (from the floppy you made previously.) I don't remember having any problems with my upgrade, but this _does_ sound vaguely familiar. If I've missed the boat totally, and this is not your problem... sorry, I tried! Good luck, Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 156 Fri Sep 17, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:43 EDT Ralph, So when you got the plain desktop, did it behave? if so, all you need to do is arrange your icons and all that and then save your setup and work from there. BTW, I wouldn't run anything from the original disks. Make copies of them and use the copies. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 157 Fri Sep 17, 1993 R.PLAGGENBUR [Ralph / WA] at 23:41 EDT Al, The plain desktop I refered to was the Atari desktop, not the Neodesk desktop. Did the 3.03 in the .INF mean anything? Ralph ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 158 Sat Sep 18, 1993 T.HEBEL [Spud Boy] at 00:39 EDT Dan, is NeoDesk four going to have 3D 16 color Icons? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 159 Sun Sep 19, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:26 EDT Ralph, Dunno about the 3.03 in the INF. It should say 3.04, but 3.03 will still work. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 160 Sun Sep 19, 1993 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 08:28 EDT >the 3.03 in the INF. It should say 3.04, but 3.03 will still work. Can't remember if I saw this here or not. Anyway, in mono the inf says 3.03 and in colour 3.04. What's happening? ~~Brian..Written on Sunday 19 September 1993 at 09:07 a.m. ADT ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 161 Sun Sep 19, 1993 K.ESTES [Kenne@SFRT] at 21:29 EDT Count me another owner! ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 162 Sun Sep 19, 1993 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 23:28 EDT Chuck, The T-25 doesn't seem to hamper any software that I run, it just sits in the backround and does its thing. I would prefer to have an 030 board in my Mega but can't really afford it. The T-25 is a nice addition and gives you a pretty fast machine (along with Warp9). I'm real happy with it. I'm not sure what you can get it for though, I bought it about a year ago and paid around $200 for it. FastTech did a fine job on the board, hopefully they will have a big bag of them there, and everyone who wants one will be able to pick one up. I would suggest that if you decide to order from Fast Tech that you take delivery AT THE SHOW, they have had problems in the past delivering product. Buying from The Computer Network is a safe bet, Tony is a VERY capable technician and the guys at TCN are the nicest, most reliable and honest people you could ever want to trust your business with. Come by and say Hi at the show, I'll be up front at the information area when I'm not browsing/buying. In fact, everyone that's here on Genie should make themselves a badge so we can finally meet face to face. On second thought, maybe not. Then everyone will find out that I'm not the Tom Selleck clone I claim to be :-) Steve ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 163 Mon Sep 20, 1993 K.ESTES [Kenne@SFRT] at 01:51 EDT TCN is the best. (My biased opinion. They _are_ the closest.) ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 164 Mon Sep 20, 1993 C.BINCKLEY [-- Chuck --] at 03:42 EDT Steve, Sorry I didn't meet you at the show - I was there Saturday from about noon to 3:30 P.M. - but I see your message was posted Sunday night (8^})... Anyway, as of the time I left the show, Fast was a no-show (no pun intended!), and as it seemed to be a more cost-effective solution - based on price, speed, and my need for a new(er) hard drive, I bought one of the used Mega STEs Bob Brodie commisioned TNC to sell for him! Well, 16MHz is still better than 8MHz, and I figure the difference in speed between the SCSI HD in the MSTE and my antique MFM Seagate in my old SH205 will help make up for the difference in CPU speed between the T25 and the MSTE. TNC is taking my Mega in trade, so I think I got a pretty good deal - I just hope ol' Bob took care of his babies!(8^})... Now I just need to learn how to reconfigure everything for the MSTE - cache flags, auto folder patch programs, DMA sound capabilities, etc. Oh, and just to keep the topic police off our backs: Hey, Dan! The beard looks good! And thank that guy for letting you open his brand new copy of Geneva so I could take a peek at the manual! -- Chuck -- ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 165 Tue Sep 21, 1993 S.MILLER58 at 01:46 EDT Hi everyone, I just bought Geneva on Sunday at Glendale... I like the way it looks, and the idea of it ... but my progress in getting it to work with my software has been minimal. Well, let's say that the progress has yet to be stable. problem list- #1 My mouse disappears (most of the time) when I use Touch-Up #2 Megapaint will not load in multi or single tasking mode. #3 I cannot quit Geneva, it just locks up on a blank screen #4 I cannot get Convector to work in Single or multi tasking mode I get a 'reserved vector error 37 bombs' or it loads in single task mode, but the .img file comes in messed up then it bombs. #5 I cannot even get a 250K tif file to print in Calamus or PageStream even with everything terminated but Geneva My equipment list is as follows: (1) TT with 4 megs ST ram both monitors my my Auto folder: Jar10 Geneva Neoload Fontload Warp9 maccel help me please because I think that the program is nice [C ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 166 Tue Sep 21, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 05:14 EDT S.MILLER58, I'm sorry to hear about the problems that you're having with Geneva. I can sympathize with the break-in problems that you''re having even though you have a later version of the software than I do (I have beta v0.95). If I were using your TT, I'd start by reorganizing the AUTO Folder so that the programs loaded in the following order: JAR10 GENEVA WARP9_TT FONTLOAD MACCEL NEOLOAD You might also consider adding the line FASTLOAD OFF to your Warp 9 data file (e.g., STHIGH.DAT, STMEDIUM.DAT, etc.) so indicate to Warp 9 that you never want to set the fastload bit on. Your problem with Touch-Up (i.e., the disappearing mouse) might be solved by using the Task Manager to turn off the "Multitask" or turn on the "Limit Windows Handles" flags when you load Touch-Up. Also, make sure that your NEWDESK.INF file in your root directory does -not- contain a line that reads as follows: #Z 01 C:\NEODESK3\NEOLOAD.PRG@ and make sure that your GEM.CNF file, also in your root directory, contains a line that reads as follows: shell \neodesk3\neodesk.exe Hope this helps. ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 167 Tue Sep 21, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 15:02 EDT Everyone, I am right now working on a version 1.01. This is the one we are planning to ship out to anyone who ordered the beta test version. We should be able to begin shipping this coming Monday. Orders will be processed in the same sequence we originally received the beta order in. Anyone who purchased a 1.00 version at Glendale will be able to use a patch program to update to 1.01 at that time. S. Miller, #1-4: We've already talked to you by phone about these. #5: This might be the preset memory limit. Try increasing this by using the Task Manager to change the Limit Memory values for each of these programs. I also recommend that you try turning Warp 9's fast memory clearing (PinHead) option off when you encounter other things like you mentioned. If this clears things up for a particular program, then you should create a flag for it which has the "Clear allocated memory" flag On. Spud Boy, Full color icons are in the works. The 3D effect is up to how the icon itself is drawn. Dirk, I have solved the infamous item selector scroll bar problem. Bill, Rick has talked to a couple of people by email. We were given the phone number of the US office and told that they were going to be instructed to send us a copy of CuBase to test with. Rick then called Steinberg/Jones and was rather rudely told something to the effect of "We don't talk to other developers by phone. Send us a fax." We sent them a fax the same day (over a month ago, at this point) and have not heard anything since. Rick has just sent another letter to Wolfgang S. Maybe we will get a response this time. Ralph, This definitely should not happen. I will have another 0.95 shipped out to you today. You will also be getting a 1.01 disk and manual in about 7-10 days (depending on when you happen to have originally ordered.) The 3.03 in the INF file simply means that the file was written with either 3.03 or 3.04. They use the same format. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 168 Tue Sep 21, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 18:33 EDT S. Miller (is it Steve?), Are you runnning Geneva from the AUTO folder? Do you have any auto-running GEM app disabled in the NEWDESK.INF file? Are you using a boot manager? (If so, it may be reinserting an auto-running GEM app back into NEWDESK.INF.) What does Fontload do? What happens when you have Jar, Geneva, Neoload and Warp 9 running in the AUTO folder, and nothing else? Check your PATH statement in GEM.CNF, to make sure it has a comma at the start, as in "setenv PATH=.,c:\..." and so on. Your problems are definitely not normal. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 169 Tue Sep 21, 1993 O-ZONE [Flakes] at 19:43 EDT So how does one aquire Geneva. Is it available at any retailers such as Toad or Joppa? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 170 Tue Sep 21, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 21:22 EDT S. Miller, Mike's suggestions are excellent. I might add that the fastload bit may not need to be turned off in current versions of Geneva, since it has a flag that controls how such fast-loaded applications are handled. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 171 Wed Sep 22, 1993 THOMPSON2 [STYVWERX] at 01:02 EDT Yum! I can't wait for the next release. I have never before crashed my computer with such a sense of purpose and joy. If the release version were the .95 beta, you would still have an enormously successful program. I love it, and it has revolutionized the way I use my computer, both at work and at home. I can't possibly compare it to MultiTos, because I don't have it, and judging from the success of Genava, I'm never likely to want it. I just wish DynaCadd would multitask. They keep raving about the Windows version, forgetting the first succesful version worked in a GEM window, that they are now all too coy about supporting with the upgraded capabilities. My ideal will be a DynaCadd running with StraightFax in the background! ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 172 Wed Sep 22, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 02:06 EDT Al, Aha! I'm surprized! From pg. 106 NeoDesk users manual c.1990 v 3.02 - " The NeoDesk Font Loader utility will allow you to replace the three system fonts: the small icon font, the color text font, and the monochrome text font. It must be run from either the AUTO folder or the built-in desktop. It uses the fonts inthe NEODESK.FNT file which is created using the NeoDesk Font Converter. ...." Gee Al, I guess NeoDesk _still_ has a few secrets! See ya, Matt BTW, I keep FONTLOAD.PRG dead last in my AUTO folder and have never had it interfere with anything, that I know of. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 173 Wed Sep 22, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:01 EDT Matt, Blush! I *have* used Fontload, and Dan even mentioned it in passing in a conversation he had with me a while back. But, really, since Warp 9 lets a user change fonts on the fly, it's a vastly easier method. Give Gribnif credit for making changeable fonts available for NeoDesk, though. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 174 Wed Sep 22, 1993 W.TURCZYNSK1 [Bill] at 21:27 EDT Dan: I just Emailed Wolfgang Kundrus a letter asking for cooperation from the US distributor with the CuBase/Geneva problem. I rehashed what you just told me. Hope this helps! [Bill] ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 175 Wed Sep 22, 1993 S.MILLER58 at 23:15 EDT To everyone who helped: Thank you for your suggestions on Geneva, I have gotten it more stable now. I do encount a 2-bomb crash when I fool with the Icon editor in Neodesk though... I must commend Gribnif on their help... I called a couple of times and emailed them and they were very helpful. I am looking forward to seeing v 1.01 and I hope to get more use out of the program when I get more memory for my TT. thats all for now... ^steve ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 176 Thu Sep 23, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 01:05 EDT Dan, When I tried mallocing a lot of stuff I eventually got a bogus return value (not NULL) from malloc. ie. long blksize; int *ptr; blksize = 9800; ptr = malloc(blksize); And then ptr came back as address 0xFFFF9800. Oops... I should've typed blksize = 0x9800 in the line above. But that is what I got... Hmm... I'll check again later, but for now I'm just using Malloc since it works fine for me. :) --Kevin PS. I'm looking forward to Geneva 1.01! And the release version of Interface with the manual. :) Interface crashes when I tried to 'resize' a user defined object with a bus error. Most likely because there was a NULL ptr to the code to do the actual object drawing. :) ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 177 Thu Sep 23, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 02:36 EDT Dan, I reported earlier some troubles using the mouse with That's Write 2 under Geneva 0.95. I now find also that the macros and the instructions don't work properly. I already reported via Al that TW interferes with Cardfile. This seems to be getting worse. Using Cardfile after TW messes up the display completely, though it may still work otherwise. I'm sorry to be so late reporting these problems just when you are finishing up 1.1, but I've been on holiday. Best of luck and thanks again for Geneva. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 178 Fri Sep 24, 1993 B.AEIN [B Man] at 19:57 EDT Dan, I bought Geneva at Glendale and I am getting 2 bombs when I try to use the register prg. It seems to be writting to the floppy, but then crash's. Please advise! Bman ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 179 Fri Sep 24, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 21:39 EDT Bman, Are you running the register program from a clean system? Make sure the fast- load bit is OFF for everything. (You can turn them back on selectively later.) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 180 Sat Sep 25, 1993 B.AEIN [B Man] at 16:17 EDT Dan, The register prg is wierd in that it says "Neodesk register" when you run it. Is this the problem? Did my disk get the wrong register prg? I hope we can Fmail a solution! Bman ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 181 Sun Sep 26, 1993 T.GIRSCH [TJ @ S-Mart] at 03:21 EDT BMan - It's spelled "weird," not wierd... ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 182 Sun Sep 26, 1993 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 12:36 EDT I've just noticed that Codekeys doesn't seem to work with Geneva. I was inside Tracker/ST and tried my macros but they wouldn't work as they had in the past. Am I going to be able to use programs like Codekeys and Popit with Geneva, and if so, How? Steve ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 183 Sun Sep 26, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 14:09 EDT Steve, CodeKeys works on the 1040ST (16MHZ AdSpeed, 4 megs) and TT 4/4 that I have here, under Geneva. Popit works also, but you don't need Popit, since Geneva does the same thing. It will call up any DA onto the screen with a key combination. Run CodeKeys and create a macro while running Geneva, then play it back. Let me know what happens. The problem you were having may have been caused by the slightly different timing of events under Geneva. The CPU is, after all, doing a little more than it did before. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 184 Mon Sep 27, 1993 G.FUHRMAN [gnox] at 05:15 EDT Al, what happens to CodeKeys KEY files that are linked to specific applications when you run those applications under Geneva? gnox ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 185 Mon Sep 27, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 06:48 EDT Steve, I use Geneva all the time and haven't had a problem inside any of my programs using CodeKeys. I think you must have accidently turned off your CodeKeys or disabled them somehow that day. You no longer need PopIt (or RegAcc) if you're using Geneva. Just define a flag, using the Task Manager, for each desk accessory that you wish to assign a hot key combination to, using the "Keys"/"Read Key" buttons to define the hot key combination, "Save Settings", and reboot. Your hot key selection will take effect after the reboot. ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 186 Mon Sep 27, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:34 EDT Gnox, Dunno about the .key files. I made one set that's universal, anticipating a problem (since all apps are active in a multitasking system). Any volunteers? maybe I'll have to do it. :) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 187 Mon Sep 27, 1993 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 10:39 EDT C.BINCKLEY [-- Chuck --] at 03:42 EDT > Steve, > >Sorry I didn't meet you at the show - I was there Saturday from about >noon to 3:30 P.M. - but I see your message was posted Sunday night >(8^})... > >Oh, and just to keep the topic police off our backs: > > Hey, Dan! The beard looks good! And thank that guy for > letting you open his brand new copy of Geneva so I could > take a peek at the manual! Guess what Chuck, I was standing right next to you when you were looking at that manual :-) Steve ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 188 Mon Sep 27, 1993 M.MOTOGAWA [MEL] at 10:42 EDT PopIt would still be useful for calling up any Multidesk Deluxe MDX's with one keystroke ease. I know you can just run acc's via the TM, but I believe that causes holes in your free ram while MDX's don't. Just a thought. Codekeys works great on my system as long as I'm single tasking. But loading apps, that have .key files tied to them, one after another, does confuse it when you start exiting apps. Of course, CK was written with single tasking in mind and there it works well. I've been autorunning Hotwire via the Shell command and have everything set for single tasking. Just the new AES stuff, menu bar hotkeying, tear away menus, dialog and window customizing, etc. of Geneva is great, even though I'm not using the multitasking. And all my Codeheadware and 90% of my tsrs/accs/utilities (I'm still using the .95 beta) are working fine, in contrast to Mu...err...other options. :-) Adding Geneva gives you plenty of enhancements without a drastic change in what programs you're using. Kudos, Dan. - Mel ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 189 Mon Sep 27, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 14:35 EDT Hows the 1.01 coming Dan? I forgot to say.... The wait for Geneva 1.01 is MMMMMMMMMMMMMUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRDER. :) Hope it ships soon. --Kevin PS. How soon will Interface be ready for official release? I'd like to see my English manual soon. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 190 Mon Sep 27, 1993 S.MILLER58 at 22:45 EDT I have noticed that when I have x-control running it changes the shading etc. of my windows... I like the way Geneva look before the change yet I cannot get the changing to stop even when I mess with the windows cpx. any suggestions? steve ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 191 Tue Sep 28, 1993 L.DOWDLE1 [Scott Dowdle] at 01:22 EDT S.MILLER58, > I cannot get the changing to stop even when I mess with the windows > cpx. any suggestions? Yes, make sure you save your options and then reboot. I'm sure if you NEED to reboot... but to get NeoDesk to recognise the change I think at the bare minimum you need to exit it and reload. I hope that works for you. TYL, Scott ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 192 Tue Sep 28, 1993 R.BROWN30 at 01:25 EDT Regarding screen color problems in Geneva: After running Compo's Studio Photo, quitting does not clear the palette or reset same to defaults. Often, especially in loading gray scale scans, the palette is turned not only shades of gray, but is INVERSED. This is where the problem lies. Returning to the desktop, or otherwise running XCONTROL.AC? (to fix the palette) locks everything up, requiring a reboot. The problem has been 100% repeatable on several attempts to date. Other prgs that mess up the palette can be fixed by XCONTROL without this lockup problem. Suggestions? I'm running release 1 bought at Glendale on a TT030 4/4. -Richard Brown ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 193 Tue Sep 28, 1993 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 01:32 EDT >A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 14:09 EDT > >Steve, > >Popit works also, but you don't need Popit, since Geneva does the same thing. >It will call up any DA onto the screen with a key combination. I've been trying to get Geneva to save the Key macros that I create without success, I'm not sure the .CNF file is even being updated. I wanted the Task Manager to be ALT/F1 and Maxifile ALT/F2. I can get it working that way fine, and then I save the settings under the options menu, but when I reboot Geneva the macros are no longer there to use. How can I get it to use the macros that I want it to use? I have the GEM.CNF in the root directory of C. Also, is there a program/DA that tells you how much memory you have left for other programs? SHOMEM doesn't seem to work. It gives me an error message something like "Doesn't recognize ver. of Tos" All in all, it's a great experience, I guess I just have to re do my thinking in regard to how my system is setup. I really miss using Hotwire, it was so easy and convenient to launch programs. Steve P.S. Has anyone else experienced MACRO HELL yet. There are a million different macros you have to remember and deal with now. And many of them seem to conflict. Does Geneva let the macros in programs take charge when you run a program? >M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 06:48 EDT > >Steve, > > You no longer need PopIt (or RegAcc) if you're using Geneva. > Just define a flag, using the Task Manager, for each desk accessory > that you wish to assign a hot key combination to, using the > "Keys"/"Read Key" buttons to define the hot key combination, "Save > Settings", and reboot. Your hot key selection will take effect after > the reboot. Geneva won't save the keys from the flag menu for me. I change the keys to what I want to use and save under the options menu but they disapear when I reboot for some reason. Any suggestions? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 194 Tue Sep 28, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 06:10 EDT Steve, >> Also, is there a program/DA that tells you how much >> memory you have left for other programs? SHOMEM doesn't >> seem to work. It gives me an error message something like >> "Doesn't recognize ver. of Tos" If you're an ST high resolution user, try using the Bermuda Corner Clock, BSPCLK.LZH (file #26800). This little desk accessory will not only give you a corner clock, but will display your remaining free RAM as well. >> Geneva won't save the keys from the flag menu for me. I >> change the keys to what I want to use and save under the >> options menu but they disapear when I reboot for some >> reason. Any suggestions? Perhaps, if I gave you an example of how I do it on my system, we could see if there's a variance between how I'm doing it and you're trying to do it. I have defined a flag for CodHead SoftWare's "MaxiFile" desk accessory that looks as follows: Name: MAXIFILE.ACC Desc: MaxiFile X Multitask Limit Window Handles Limit memory to 0 Kb Windows off left edge X Redraw upon exiting X Special object types X Rounded buttons X Automatic keyboard equivs X Undraw auto keyboard equivs Keep menu bar/desktop X AES 4.0 extended messages Keys ... MaxiFile X Activate Reserve key 1 Reserve key 2 Reserve key 3 Activation key X Control X Shift Alt Read Key = f In setting up the new "flag" for MaxiFile, the Task Manager assigns it the system's Default Flag settings which are fine. Press the "Keys..." button. Press the "Read Key" button. Press the "f" key. Then click on the Control and Shift boxes. Press the "Quit" button. Press the "OK" button. Select "Option" from the menu bar and then "Save Settings". Wait several seconds for the settings to save. Reboot. After the system reloads MAXIFILE.ACC at boot up, the macro should work fine. If it doesn't, there may be an AUTO Program or desk accessory conflict. If you try my technique and you're -still- having problems, write me back with a listing of your AUTO Folder programs, in load order, and your desk accessories and I'll see if I can spot any problems there. Good luck! ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 195 Tue Sep 28, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:56 EDT Steve, There's quite a bit that needs explaining here to reply properly to your question on the hotkeys; a lot of it is in the manual, but I'll try to go over them one by one. But that will have to wait until later today. I'm late for work. I'll get back to this ASAP. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 196 Tue Sep 28, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 17:44 EDT Richard B., That's an odd one. I'm afraid I'm going to have to try to get a copy of Photo Studio. Steve B., If you have CodeKeys macros which are time-dependent, you may have to modify them to work properly. Other than that, it should work fine. I suggest you use the Task Manager to define an "Activation key" for your DA's. The important thing to remember when changing flags *permanently* is that you should begin without anything selected in the main window of the Task Manager. Then, use the "Search" feature to find the correct flag. If there is not one already defined, use New to create one. Bman, Well, there was bound to be one bad disk out of all the copies we sold. I think you may be the person who called the other day and talked to Bob. If not, please just send the disk back to us and we will return it to you (with 1.01 on it!) right away. Bill N., I found the problem with cursor positioning using the mouse. I'll also try the other things you mention. Today is the last day for 1.01. Kevin, Hmmm....I just checked to make sure it wasn't a sign-extension problem and it does not seem to be. Perhaps there is an error in malloc() when a particular number is used. You might want to send me an exact code segment, because 0x9800 sign extended is 0xffff9800, which suggests that maybe you were somehow doing this (notice the "int"): int blksize; blksize = 0x9800; ptr = malloc(blksize); This would definteily not work, since "blksize" would get extended to 0xffff9800L. I'll mention that G_USERDEF problem to Shift. Interface was supposed to be done...hmmm...let's see...about 6 months ago, now. Right now we don't have time to deal with the manual, even if our $%*()&@ translator actually gets it finished tomorrow. I can't honestly say when it's going to be done at this point. We are hoping to fit it in before NeoDesk 4, though. Steve, Well, you still should not be getting that crash in the icon editor. One thing I would suggest is to look at the resource file (NEODESKM or H.RSC) and see that its date matches the one on NEODESK.EXE. If you used the 3.04 patch program, they should both be the date you patched on. What are you doing when it crashes? We always try to help as best as we can. I'm glad we got you further along than you had been. Flakes, You can purchase it directly from us for $69.95, or from dealers in the very near future. We are going to be shipping out to our distributors at the end of the week. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 197 Tue Sep 28, 1993 T.HENRY12 [Tom Jr.] at 19:36 EDT Hey all, Does Calamus SL work OK with Geneva? M-Toss makes the key bindings inoperable. This may be a problem with SL, but I'd like confirmation here, 'cause I'm interested in Geneva! Tom ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 198 Tue Sep 28, 1993 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 22:24 EDT Dan, Strangely if that is indeed my mistake (int instead of long int) then I wonder why Malloc doesn't also complain & fail? Hmm... I'll look again. Thanks. I can't wait for 1.01!!!!! I just rec'vd Warp9 3.80 for my Falcon on Monday! Yippie!!!! :) Now the painful wait for ICD Pro software to replace the sloooooow Atari HDX software. :) Then the manual & release version of Interface... What next??? :) --Kevin (back to the assembly coding... after practicing trumpet & keys with my funk band) PS. My "daytime grundge job corporation (AT&T)" has translation services available on the fly for documentation. You can call them on an 800 # and get a price quote for the xlation if you wanted to at least see how much they'd charge. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 199 Wed Sep 29, 1993 THOMPSON2 [STYVWERX] at 01:27 EDT I don't know if this problem relates to ICD, or to a Geneva connection with ICD, but I downloaded the latest Hard Drive Software,6.20, from the ICD rountable, and if I try to run HDUtil, on my TT with Geneva in place, I crash.(my computer does, too). 6.20 will not allow any of the AUTO folder programs to run on my Syquest, and after an afternoon of trying everything I could, I went back to 6.07, which works fine. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 200 Wed Sep 29, 1993 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 03:07 EDT Dan, I have tried dragging the "About" dialogue box after bringing it up from the menu bar in all possible display options. It does not drag, and it does not disappear when the mouse buttons are used one after another, and it can only be got rid of by bringing up a "Help" option from the menu bar or the task manager. It rings a bell instead. This may be a peculiarity of my system, which does fail to do some things others can do. For example, it will not print from UltraScript, and it has difficulties setting macros with That's Write, which no one else has reported. I have a Mega 4STE, TOS 2.05. If you are looking at That's Write, it might be worth checking if my problems with the macros are related to the interaction with Cardfile. If TW messes up Cardfile, perhaps Cardfile messes up TW. In fact, I have found my TW file was corrupted after running under Geneva -- severe problems with printing in graphic mode to my DeskJet -- and I had to replace the TWRITE.PRG, which cured the problem, at least while running under TOS 2.05 instead of Geneva. Best of luck with your amazing project. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 201 Wed Sep 29, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:23 EDT Steve, Dan summed up the solution to your hotkey problem. Make sure you assign hotkeys without selecting an application or desk accessory first. Also, there is a neat little clock DA that shows both ST and TT memory along with the time in the upper right; it's called the Bermuda Clock. It counts down the memory being consumed by any app, while you watch. If no one sees it here on GEnie, I'll send it up. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 202 Wed Sep 29, 1993 R.BUSH [Richard Bush] at 03:29 EDT Good grief! I just tried Geneva (and NeoDesk) on my Falcon again, after giving up on it a while ago, and got it to run in 16 color mode, but I have to give up on it again. Now it keeps telling me the disk is damaged when I try to run certain programs. If I reboot and try again it will somtimes run the program, but refuse to run others that it had been running fine. Under MTOS the programs run fine. It also sometimes refuses to delete folders, but if I reboot under MTOS they delete just fine. I hope the release version isn't so flakey. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 203 Wed Sep 29, 1993 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 07:08 EDT Dan, Were you able to get together with John Eidsvoog at the show and figure out what's causing Calligrapher to crash when trying to print while Geneva is resident? Maybe this concern is OBE. Al doesn't seem to have any problems with his later beta version (mine is v0.95) of Geneva, right Al? -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- Styvwerx, >> I don't know if this problem relates to ICD, or to a >> Geneva connection with ICD, but I downloaded the latest >> Hard Drive Software,6.20, from the ICD roundtable, and if >> I try to run HDUtil, on my TT with Geneva in place, I >> crash.(my computer does, too). This is a known problem with Geneva and the ICD Utilities. When I run mine to make adjustments to my ICDBOOT.SYS, I boot up without Geneva and they work fine. ICDBOOT itself will work fine with Geneva. (My Extensible Control Panel says I'm using v6.2.x.) -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- Al, >> Also, there is a neat little clock DA that shows both ST >> and TT memory along with the time in the upper right; >> it's called the Bermuda Clock. It counts down the memory >> being consumed by any app, while you watch. If no one >> sees it here on GEnie, I'll send it up. The Bermuda Clock has been posted in our Library - it's file #26800. I'd highly recommend it to ST high resolution Geneva users because the free RAM indicator comes in handy (does TT RAM, too). ... Mike Squire ------------