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The system will prompt you for your information. ========================================================================== ************ Topic 19 Wed Jun 30, 1993 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 15:20 EDT Sub: Geneva - Multitasking Environment The following topic will cover messages and discussions regarding GENEVA, the Multitasking Application Environment from Gribnif Software. 211 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 1 Sat Feb 26, 1994 G.LEONE [Gerry] at 20:35 EST >J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 14:50 EST > >If you have CARDFILE.ACC and CARDFILE.PRG in the same directory, they'll both >use the same data file. AHhhhhhhhhH! A very great piece of news! Thanks mucho, John! Solves all my problems. -Gerry ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 2 Sat Feb 26, 1994 J.SAFFER [JASON SAFFER] at 21:38 EST Mick, you mentioned that there is no need to call up the task manager to run a program/accessory but that NeoDesk would make this really simple. How do I run an accessory that isn't loaded in NeoDesk? - Jason Saffer Hercules, California Saturday, February 26, 1994 12:00 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 3 Sun Feb 27, 1994 T.GIRSCH [TJ @ S-Mart] at 01:50 EST Hmm... When I do searches with Aladdin, it doesn't seem to find that file _anywhere_. Maybe I'll have to search by filename... - T.J. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 4 Sun Feb 27, 1994 R.BUSH [Richard Bush] at 04:21 EST Jason, I've never had my bottom status line disappear with the current Geneva version. But, I make it a rule NOT to have Aladdin running with ANY word processor. I can't recall the exact problems with Word Perfect and Aladdin, because I no longer use Word Perfect, however That's Write bombs consistantly with Aladdin in memory. I always exit Aladdin before running any word processor. Ouch! I just duplicated your problem. Not only did the line disappear with Aladdin in memory, but Word Perfect crashed with 2 bombs when I tried to quit the program! Geneva recovered fine and I moved back into Aladdin and finished this message. :) I'm going to reboot now just to be safe. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 5 Sun Feb 27, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 12:47 EST Jason, Click on a DA and run it, just like you would do with a program. That's all there is to it. (You may need to make sure that ACC and ACX are listed as executable fle types in GEM.CNF and in NeoDesk's setup.) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 6 Sun Feb 27, 1994 K.HULET [Ken] at 14:01 EST To: T.GIRSCH, Thanks for the tip on checking(selecting) use video from NEWDESK/DESKTOP.INF files. I have tried this before, and just tried it again, but Geneva still boots in ST Medium resolution. I'll keep experimenting but I still welcome ideas. Thanks.....Ken ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 7 Sun Feb 27, 1994 J.SAFFER [JASON SAFFER] at 17:21 EST RICHARD, and all others who have duplicated the problem I have with the status line disappearing in WordPerfect when in Geneva: thanks for verifying the bug! Richard, the problem occurs for me whether Aladdin is involved or not. For example, I can run WordPerfect and the Diamond Edge. When I go back into WP and clear the screen in WP, the status line is gone. So it's not just in conjunction with Aladdin. Also, Geneva's redraw screen key doesn't bring the status line info back -- although resizing the window while in WordPerfect does. My guess is that this bug is connected to the fact that I'm running more than one single-tasking program at a time and then switching back and forth, but I'll let Gribnif come up with the definitive answer on that . - Jason Saffer Hercules, California Sunday, February 27, 1994 2:21 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 8 Sun Feb 27, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 18:37 EST Al, Does this run them as ACC's or as PRG's (regardless of the file extension). There's a difference. :) ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 9 Sun Feb 27, 1994 R.HOEKSTRA1 [RandyH] at 18:49 EST Is anybody using ExtenDOS with Geneva to run a CD-ROM drive. I just set this up yesterday and there seems to be a conflict between the two. Everthing seems to work fine without Geneva, but with it, no files show up in the Geneva file selector. Also when I try to run programs off the CD-ROM, they often say they can't find their resource or inf or whatever file. Opening windows from Neodesk works just fine, but Geneva can't seem to handle the paths. This is with the Gemini CD, btw. If I use Calamus (with its own file selector) I can see all the files and load things off the CD. Not sure who is at fault. Thanks, Randy ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 10 Sun Feb 27, 1994 C.KROWCHUK1 [CHRIS] at 19:59 EST > SLEEP: Alt-Undo ("undo the awake status of this app, please") > REDRAW: Shift-Help ("help restore the screen, please") > CLOSE WINDOW: Shift-Bksp ("go back where you came from") > >I know that other combos can make just as much or just as little sense, but I >like the one-hand operation no matter what. Wow, you must have huge hands Al!! I couldn't possibly one hand your sleep hotkey, Alternate on my keyboard is bottom extreme left and undo is top and almost all the way over to the right. I measured a full twelve inches distance between these two keys. I was able to press the alternate key with my left elbow and the undo key with my left pointer finger with some practice. Perhaps this is where Al has been, finger stretching camp? <> Chris ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 11 Sun Feb 27, 1994 L.TRAPANI [Lou @Machine] at 23:50 EST Jason Saffer, What I did was this, I went to the "SET PREFERENCES" in the NeoDesk drop down menus. Then select the "Extensions" option. I then added .ACC and .ACX to the NeoDesk extension listing, so that NeoDesk would know to load this files as executable files. Since then, I am able to load a run an accessory at any time right off from NeoDesk and I do not have use the Task Manager or the Geneva Manager file selector. I can even load and run "turned off" accessories since I included .ACX in the Extentions dialog. -= Lou T. =- Written: Sunday, February 27, 1994 11:16 p.m. EST ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 12 Mon Feb 28, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:29 EST Kevin, A DA that is run on the fly behaves like a DA that is loaded at boot time. It shows up in the desk menu (applications menu) as a desk accessory, and pops back there when you close it. if you run it as a PRG or an APP, it behaves like an app. (There are exceptions, and I haven't found out whether the code in some programs is improperly done in these cases. Some apps when run under G do not exit from memory when you close them. They revert to the app section of the desk menu. I suspect those apps are confused, and "think" they are running as DAs.) I usually have 12 to 14 DAs in the DA menu at one time, and maybe five of them are asleep. Chris, I used my nose for the Alt key. (All the Alts should be right shift. Sorry!) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 13 Mon Feb 28, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 16:27 EST Gerry, Well, you can navigate around the item selector from the keyboard a lot more quickly than clicking with the mouse, in many cases. For instance, you could hit the F-key of the path where CardFile is, and then press [Control]CARD... (or as many letters are needed until CARDFILE.ACC is selected.) TJ, Yeah, I realized that there would be a problem without a at the end of GENEVA.CNF or GEM.CNF, but forgot to fix it. Thanks for reminding me. Geneva and the Task Manager are most definitely Falcon-aware. The video mode should definitely get set from the GENEVA.CNF settings (see my message to Ken, below.) Al, You'll never live down that Alt-key mistake now . Ken, Ah, you end up in ST Medium. That's a different story. First, make sure you have release 003. Assuming you do, you should check to be sure that you have the "Video from DESKTOP/NEWDESK.INF" option off. Then, use the Task Manager to switch to 16-color mode. Once there, Save Settings. Now it should stick when you reboot. This assumes you are running Geneva from the AUTO folder. If you aren't, then you have to change it from Atari's desktop. Jason, Yup, I print all the problem reports out as I get them. There's a pile right now on my desk . Even though I can't try yours out right now, I will look at it when I get back to work on Geneva. Kevin, Older versions of Atari's AES have a static limit on how many evnt_mesag()'s can be queued, and once you go past it, blammo! I'm surprised they still didn't fix this for AES 4.04. I also didn't know that you could even open more than seven windows without having MiNT. I just learnt something new. Erin, No sweat. That's what it's there for. I had to decide between either emulating all the bugs in Atari's AES in order to keep programmers from relying on my cleanups when they test things under Geneva, or give them a way of knowing when they were doing something that wasn't correct. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 14 Mon Feb 28, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 19:20 EST Dan, With Falcon TOS, I've opened at LEAST 13 windows at a time. :) At least I found an acceptable way around the TOS message queue (sp?) limitation. :) Yeah, I found that Falcon TOS let me open lotsa windows because my new window manager for applications can handle ridiculous #'s of windows and only stops when ya get an error code returned. Any way you could incorporate an alert into Geneva DB that in effect says... "[3][Hey idiot. This is FINE under Geneva, but the Atari AES will DIE and just leave you hanging in the BREEZE!!!][Not so Hot!]"???? --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 15 Mon Feb 28, 1994 K.HULET [Ken] at 20:29 EST Dan, >Ken, > > Ah, you end up in ST Medium. That's a different story. First, make sure >you have release 003. Assuming you do, you should check to be sure that >you have the "Video from DESKTOP/NEWDESK.INF" option off. Then, use the >Task Manager to switch to 16-color mode. Once there, Save Settings. Now it >should stick when you reboot. > > This assumes you are running Geneva from the AUTO folder. If you aren't, >then you have to change it from Atari's desktop. I have release 003, I run Geneva from AUTO folder, I tried "Video from DESKTOP/NEWDESK.INF" option off and on, I've saved settings from Task Manager, checked to see that GENEVA.CNF is being rewritten(new date) it is and I still ALWAYS boot in ST medium. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 16 Mon Feb 28, 1994 M.TERRY5 [Martin] at 20:44 EST OK Al and all you Guru types, I've got a question that's I've worked on for a while... How can you easily set the clipboard path??? I've tried and tried different environmental variable names and settings but they simply don't work. Right now the only way I can get a valid clipboard path is a small program I wrote that does a simple scrap_write call with the path to my clipboard folder. This is the ONLY way I have been able to get all my applications that use the clipboard to read and write to this folder. Why am I not happy with this method? It leaves a little hole in memory after it executes... Can you say non-contiguous? Besides THERE MUST BE A BETTER WAY! Martin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 17 Mon Feb 28, 1994 M.POCHE [Mick] at 23:25 EST Jason, Ummm, if I understand what your asking, the answer is that you can load up accessories through NeoDesk just the same way you do with programs. The only thing I had to do to get this set up was call up the Set Preferences dialog and set the extensions ACC and ACX (for accessories I have disabled) as GEM applications. Works like a charm! If you haven't read Al's "Secrets of NeoDesk" and "Secrets of Geneva", stop what you're doing now, d/load them and get readin'. They will help you unleash some of Geneva/NeoDesk's 'hidden' powers! - Mick ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 19 Tue Mar 01, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:34 EST Martin, The SDS Clipboard CPX will handle this just fine. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 20 Tue Mar 01, 1994 Y.DUFRESNE [Papageno] at 19:01 EST Martin, ie the clipboard path: There is an XCONTROL CPX that does this. It should be in the lib here but I can't verify. Look for it and if you're unsuccessfull, Email me, I'll send it to you. Yanick @ CGA ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 21 Tue Mar 01, 1994 L.TRAPANI [Lou @Machine] at 21:36 EST Yikes!!! I thought I had already tested this one under Geneva, but perhaps not. Has anyone tried running HYPERLINK in TT Medium resolution under Geneva? For some odd reason, when I try to do just this, I receive an alert box that the "program needs medium resolution." HyperLink runs fine in TT Medium resolution without Geneva. I also tried it in ST High with Geneva but there it ran okay. Is there any solution to this? -= Lou T. =- Written: Tuesday, March 01, 1994 09:32 p.m. EST ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 22 Tue Mar 01, 1994 G.LEONE [Gerry] at 22:20 EST SAY --! Now here's something cool about Geneva that I don't believe I've seen ANYONE mention (not Al, not Dan, not no one): the horizontal and vertical slider bars. And what I'm talking about here is the neat double-ended arrows ( <-- -> ) that Dan put in... AND the fact that you can slide up and down or back and forth without having to keep the mouse pointer inside of the slider bars. Once you've "grabbed" the slider box, you can move horizontally or vertically by moving your mouse ANYWHERE inside the window. I, for one, think that's a very cool feature! ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Al -- Did I read you right? Did you say you boot up with about "15 sleeping accessories"? I can't seem to get "runsleep" to work with accessories in my GEM.INF file. Is there another way to get them to boot up asleep? And why would one do that? -Gerry ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 23 Tue Mar 01, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 22:41 EST Al, Some applications use an incorrect method for determining whether they are being run as an application or accessory. If they do this, then it is fairly easy for them to become confused. I think if you run them as single-tasking they will exit properly, otherwise you will have to terminate them. (ReNameIt!, by the way, does suffer from this problem.) ~dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 24 Tue Mar 01, 1994 J.WISNIEWSK2 [Jeff - ST'er] at 23:00 EST Gerry, >Now here's something cool about Geneva that I don't believe I've seen >ANYONE mention (not Al, not Dan, not no one): the horizontal and >vertical slider bars. And what I'm talking about here is the neat >double-ended arrows ( <-- -> ) that Dan put in... AND the fact Actually it was mentioned awhile ago by Dan, around when Geneva was first released. :-} ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ JSW ^^^^ ^^^^ ST'er ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Tuesday, March 1, 1994 - 10:48:18 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 25 Wed Mar 02, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:27 EST Gerry, Great point. If you want to see what Geneva and a modern, properly scrolling app can do together, download Edith and scroll through a text. The scroll button is live, and once you start scrolling you can slide the mouse off the scrollbar and push it up and down through the text. Dan added a lot of small touches to the AES in Geneva. It is clearly the most significant advance in the Atari world since the ST came out. Damien, Thanks for the explanation. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 26 Wed Mar 02, 1994 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 10:53 EST Maybe someone can help me with this one... Everytime I download from Freeze Dried Term Geneva crashes as soon as the last file has been transferred. Any suggestions? Tomas Hows the Marpit Ram board working out? Have you had any problems that couldn't be sorted out? Steve ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 27 Wed Mar 02, 1994 MUSE [Tomas] at 15:32 EST Steve, The Marpet folks haven't yet sent me a new driver that is compatible with my T20. While I'm waiting, I've sent the Mega off to Jim Allen for a modification to the T20 so all should be working in a few days. Meanwhile, I've been using an SST and I've been hesitant to do much configuring until my "favorite" Mega is back. I have no worries concerning Geneva and the XtraRAM+8 board. ===Tomas=== ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 28 Wed Mar 02, 1994 M.MOTOGAWA [MEL] at 22:45 EST Steve, Just set up a flag for Freeze Dried Terminal with all the settings deselected and it should work fine. There's one flag in particular (can't remember which) that causes the crashing you mentioned. - Mel ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 29 Thu Mar 03, 1994 C.KROWCHUK1 [CHRIS] at 23:34 EST Al, I just tried using my nose for the Alt key but couldn't see where the undo key was . . . I'll just stick to my own hot keys for now. However, thanks for the suggestions your input here is appreciated by many. Dan, Has anyone reported problems with LHARC SHELL 2.99? It is a GEM shell very similar to STZIP and has problems under Geneva. When you run it, a message comes up saying it can't run in this resolution. It runs in high res just fine without Geneva and under M-TOS (second hand news) Also one of my customer reports that View II doesn't work with Geneva. The problem is mainly icons showing through from the neo desktop. Chris @ Computer Direct. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 30 Fri Mar 04, 1994 T.GIRSCH [TJ @ S-Mart] at 00:22 EST Chris - LHARC?!? Yuk!! No, I've not tried that yet. - T.J> ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 31 Fri Mar 04, 1994 D.BRYANT12 [DAN BRYANT] at 01:37 EST I am having trouble getting CardFile 4 to run with Geneva. When I open it, I get the Xnote screen instead of the address screen. When I click on the button to go to the address screen, nothing happens. The buttons on the right side, however, seem to work fine. I tried setting CardFile to single tasking but no change. Also, how do I get the status line at the bottom of the screen in WordPerfect to appear? (I am sure someone has asked this before.) Lastly, does anyone have experience with DataDiet and Geneva? I have had to re-install Geneva 3 times as it has stopped working for some reason. I suspect DataDiet may be the problem but have not had the time to trouble shoot it. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 32 Fri Mar 04, 1994 J.SAFFER [JASON SAFFER] at 02:00 EST Lou and Mick, thanks very much for your replies on how to load accs on the fly in NeoDesk. I'll check it out using your suggestions. - Jason Saffer Hercules, California Wednesday, March 2, 1994 9:42 am ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 33 Fri Mar 04, 1994 M.MOTOGAWA [MEL] at 02:47 EST Chris, Yep, I've seen that problem with Lharc 2.99's GEM shell too. I think Dan knows about it. It is a great looking shell, but I have to reboot without Geneva to use it. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dan, I don't know about version 1, but I've been running Data Diet version 2 with Geneva for some time with no problem. - Mel ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 34 Fri Mar 04, 1994 J.SAFFER [JASON SAFFER] at 02:52 EST Dan, you can get your status line back in WordPerfect by creating a WordPerfect by resizing the window screen by using the mouse on the button in the bottom right hand corner, reducing the size of the window, and then bringing it back to its full size. I use a Wordperfect macro to do that in one swoop. This is the only method I've found to bring back the status line. If anyone else has a proven method that works, let's hear about it! Also, when in Geneva, I often find that when I press "R" while in Aladdin to reply to a message, text shows up in the reply window and I can't even delete the text. The reply window is supposed to open up empty of text (until I type it in!). Anybody else finding this symptom in Aladdin under Geneva? - Jason Saffer Hercules, California Thursday, March 3, 1994 11:41 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 35 Fri Mar 04, 1994 T.FITZPATRI8 [Tom] at 07:00 EST Dan Bryant, For Jason's method of reviving the WordPerfect status line to work, you've also got to have a program flag for WP that has the Maximize window areas flag disabled. I've been using DataLite with Geneva on my system since August without fail. When you say Geneva "stopped working," what happened? Make sure DataLite comes before Geneva in the Auto folder sort, otherwise Geneva won't be able to find its files on compressed drives. Tom ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 36 Fri Mar 04, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:36 EST Chris, I tried LHARC Shell and it did run OK on the TT, using the CDII card. I nice programming effort, by the way, although it suffers from the German Syndrome. Dan, Data Diet should work fine under Geneva. I tried the demo and it was OK, and have just ordered Version 2.2. Squish II, which is a brother of Data Diet, works like a charm under G. CardFile has not given problems to anyone here. Are you running it as a DA? Which version are you using? Jason, No, Aladdin has behaved very well here. I hit the "R" to reply as my regular method. Are you using the latest Aladdin? Do you have it set for the flags that Dan included with G? Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 37 Fri Mar 04, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 18:27 EST Dan, Was that Data Lite or Data Diet that you had a problem with? I ran the Data Diet demo without trouble, and have ordered it. Data Lite is used by many Genevans without a problem. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 38 Fri Mar 04, 1994 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 19:36 EST Al, I dont' know where this question should be taken so..... What made you choose Data Diet over DATAlite? John B. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 39 Sat Mar 05, 1994 T.GIRSCH [TJ @ S-Mart] at 02:22 EST Jason - I've had problems like this with Aladdin, but only when something has happened to freak it out. Terminating an accessory or program while in Aladdin seems to do this. If it happens, I usually reboot and load Aladdin first thing, and then I have no problems. What are your Aladdin flags? The boxes I have checked are "Clear Allocated Memory" (could be your problem -- if it's off, turn it on), "Maximize Window Areas," "Redraw Upon Exiting," "Special Object Types," "Rounded Buttons," "Automatic Keyboard Equivs," and "Undraw Auto Keyboard Equivs." This is the way it came set up as a default. - T.J. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 40 Sat Mar 05, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:27 EST Flat, DATAlite has a very large flaw. It creates a virtual drive and does not flush the file handles when dealing with that drive. It will report that the disk is full (when it assuredly is not) or that the root directory is full (when of course it is not) when it runs out of handles. The only way to clear them is to reboot. I have never seen this kind of behavior in a commercial app of this type before. Data Diet does not operate below the TOS level, so to speak, as DL does, and files that are dietized can be undietized at any time, singly. A bad sector on a Data Dieted disk can ruin a file or two, and that's it; a bad sector on a DL disk can jeapordize the entire partition. Likewise, disk repair of a DL drive (after a hard crash) is not likely to restore the files. I'm very familiar with AdStor's PC disk compression and with Microslop's DoubleSpace, neither of which has the DL problem with file handles. And they are so much faster than DATAlite that the only legitimate question one can ask when watching a DATAlite drive copy files is "How did this thing ever get released?" Dozens of hours to copy a relatively small partition at maximum compression is ridiculous. And maximum compression is not bery much compression. DoubleSpace's max is 16-to-1 (and its authors apologize even for THAT amount, since the limit is imposed elsewhere); DL can't go past 1/8th of that in most cases. Sorry. I'm probably going to be run out of town by the DL fans. But that's the way I see it. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 41 Sat Mar 05, 1994 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 04:01 EST Al, I agree about the maximum setting. It shouldnt' exist. But Datalite is very fast. On my Syquest running off my T030 I can't even tell Datalite is installed. I don't know what you do about the internal working of such programs. When I made the decision to get a real time compression software I read many horror stories about DataDiet, and then I read many rave reviews on DataLite. The comments were made by people I trust immensly. I have no regrets. John B. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 42 Sat Mar 05, 1994 G.FUHRMAN [gnox] at 06:57 EST John B., I've also heard about "many horror stories" about Data Diet - and without exception, they are always second- or third-hand, _never_ from anyone who has actually used it as documented and has the most elementary knowledge of how their system works. (And then there are the "horror stories" that are in fact horror _theories_.) Before I plunk down any significant amount of money for software, I monitor the appropriate GEnie conference for a couple of months. (In fact that's what I'm doing in this Topic at the moment!) The Data Diet topic is Cat 2 Top 12, and DATALite is Cat 33 Top 16. I think a perusal of those two topics will leave little doubt as to which is the better alternative, in terms of functionality, flexibility and support. Personally, I was using (and testing) Data Diet 2 long before DATALite appeared on the scene, but after I monitored the DL2 topic for a few months, I was pleased to see that I'd made the right choice even before the choice was available! Anyway, let's take the DD vs. DL discussion to the appropriate topics and leave the horror stories to Stephen King. As for DD working with Geneva, I don't have Geneva yet, but I know that the two developers have been in close contact, and there are no problems except that one specific DD INF section (i.e. one aspect of program-specific customization) can't be used with Geneva. I'm pretty sure the details are in Cat 2 Top 12 (TraceTech topic.) gnox ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 43 Sat Mar 05, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 11:47 EST Chris, The current version of View II (2.02) has a few quirks under Geneva. The new version in development will fix them, but for now, your customer can do the following (after a normal install): 1. Rename VIEW_II.TOS to VIEW_II.PRG. 2. In NeoDesk, open the Preferences dialog, click "Paths", and change VIEW_II.TOS to VIEW_II.PRG. 3. If bleeding icons still persist, set VIEW_II.PRG to single- task. You may also need to set a "Redraw on exit" flag for it. If there are any further problems, you can raise them in CAT 2, TOP 6, or call me at 817-582-7373. Dan Bryant, I run Data Diet 2 here with Geneva without any problems. You should disable the option that switches Data Diet on or off depending on what program you run; this gets confused in a multitasking environment. Also make sure that DATADIET.PRG comes before GENEVA.PRG in your AUTO folder, _or_ make sure your GENEVA folder is excluded from dietizing. See Flat, That's a loaded question. Different people prefer different approaches to the same problem. Watch your rear-view mirror. ~dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 44 Sat Mar 05, 1994 R.BUSH [Richard Bush] at 13:09 EST Jason, I've also had the reply window problem. If I remember correctly, it's also related to Word Perfect. Try rebooting, then run Aladdin and you'll find no problems. Exit Aladdin, run Word Perfect, exit that and rerun Aladdin. Now you'll find the reply window problem has returned. Again, that's if I remember correctly. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 45 Sat Mar 05, 1994 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 13:57 EST Yes, the maximum setting will slow you WAY down. I set it to use LZSSworm all the time and it's not too bad. I also heard the HORROR stories related to Data Diet and would not trust my stuff to it. I tried DATAlite and have had no problems. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 46 Sat Mar 05, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 14:41 EST Just curious... can you 'dietize' only specific partitions? (Say part of my Falcon's internal HD)... --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 47 Sat Mar 05, 1994 J.SAFFER [JASON SAFFER] at 14:57 EST Al, regarding my occasional difficulties with Geneva and Aladdin (ie: that when I hit the R key to reply to a message, there are times that text appears in the reply window before I've typed anything. Plus, the redraw screen keys have no effect. I can't use the backspace or delete keys to any effect in the reply window either. All I can do is press undo to get out of the reply window, and then reboot to regain the ability to reply in the reply window): To respond to your question: I am using the latest version of Aladdin (1.62) and I am using the flag settings that Dan included with Geneva for Aladdin. I don't see any rhyme or reason yet for why this occurs in the Reply window on occasion. Has anybody else run into this symptom? I'm wondering if there's an accessory conflict or what? - Jason Saffer Hercules, California Saturday, March 5, 1994 11:27 am ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 48 Sat Mar 05, 1994 M.POCHE [Mick] at 16:34 EST Jason, Yes, I get the same Aladdin reply window problem you're talking about, but only now and then, and have not found the reason or even tried to track it down. It can get annoying, but I'm managing to live with it when it happens. I think what we need is a new version of Aladdin that follows all of the rules of GEM programming, and allows true multitasking. Oops, just tried to scroll this message in the window, and got the dreaded problem which we're talking about. :( Oh well, I guess I'll try and see exactly why it happens sometimes and not others. - Mick ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 49 Sat Mar 05, 1994 J.SAFFER [JASON SAFFER] at 16:50 EST TJ and Richard, thanks for your input. I do have the flags set for Aladdin as you do, TJ. And, Richard, I can't replicate the WordPerfect/Aladdin problem as you described it. I tried running WordPerfect first and then run Aladdin -- but the symptom didn't appear. I also tried the reverse order, still no symptom appearing. If you have any further information on the WordPerfect/Aladdin scenario that causes the difficulty, please do let me know. Dan at Gribnif: do you have any idea of what is causing this, based on other reports you might have gotten in the past? - Jason Saffer Hercules, California Saturday, March 5, 1994 12:58 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 50 Sat Mar 05, 1994 M.MOTOGAWA [MEL] at 21:15 EST Kevin, Sure. You can dietize a file, one or more file extensions, a folder, partition or the whole drive. It's completely up to the user as to how much he wants to save and where. Have used Data Diet for years with no problems. (Ooops, before the topic cops swoop down on me- Geneva works great with Data Diet.) :-) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jason, No, I've never seen that before. - Mel ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 51 Sat Mar 05, 1994 D.WALTER7 [Doug Walter] at 23:45 EST I too have had the reply window garbage on occasion. Without WPerfect having been loaded. On one occasion, I noted that Memwatch 1.0 was loaded from the GEM.CNF. On the other occasions, I had not noted what combo I was running, although this has happened at least once since I deleted Memwatch. This is with Aladdin 1.62, TOS 3.06, G release 003, and TT med or ST HI. Doug7 ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 52 Sun Mar 06, 1994 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 00:07 EST Dan Bryant, Since I got this wrong so many times that I began to believe I was the only person who had a problem with WordPerfect, I have a duty to GRIBNIF to acknowledge for you as well as me that the default settings of WP in the GENEVA.CNF file will save you any problems such as the ones with the status line. They set the Maximize window size flag to OFF. I wonder if like me you had two different copies of GENEVA.CNF, one in the GENEVA folder and the other in the root of C. That screwed a lot of things up for me until I spotted it the other day. If so, run one or the other, according to what is set in the environment settings in GEM.CNF. Hope this helps. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 53 Sun Mar 06, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 00:11 EST Flat, Damien said it better than I can. Horror stories abound in regard to Geneva, to Warp 9, to NeoDesk and to Data Diet, among dozens of other perfectly good programs, and they are nearly always started by users (or pirates) who did one of two possible things: 1. Installed the app without reading the manual, or without having the manual. 2. Ignored the advice of the programmer and serious users. I know the potential dangers of Data Diet (and of Squish II, which I find exceptionally useful), and I also know the dangers of a compressed drive. I'll take the first. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 54 Sun Mar 06, 1994 J.WISNIEWSK2 [Jeff - ST'er] at 00:36 EST Wayne, > I also heard the HORROR stories related to Data Diet and would not > trust my stuff to it. I tried DATAlite and have had no problems. The only horror stories related to Data Diet is the ones where the user does not read the manual. Other than that, Data Diet works great and there are no problems, works good with Geneva also. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ JSW ^^^^ ^^^^ ST'er ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Sunday, March 6, 1994 - 12:21:50 am ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 55 Sun Mar 06, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 00:40 EST Kevin, With DataLite2 you can select individual partitions to 'dietize'. I believe in DataDiet you can select individual files/folders to 'dietize'. DataLite2 works at HD level and physically reformats it. This can not be done on a file by file basis. Hope this helps, Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 56 Sun Mar 06, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 01:08 EST Wayne, Well, it's quite a horror to discover that maximum disk compression takes dozens of hours. Kevin, Yes, you can dietize selectively. Jason and Mick, Maybe this is an ST problem? I haven['t seen that at all on the TT. Doug, There's a newer Memwatch, BTW. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 57 Sun Mar 06, 1994 R.BUSH [Richard Bush] at 01:16 EST Well, they do say the memory is the first to go! I haven't had the reply window problem in quite some time, so I guess I was mistaken about the cause. I wish I could tell you exactly how I fixed it. When I did have the problem frequently, I fixed it as you do, by rebooting. Sorry I can't be more help. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 58 Sun Mar 06, 1994 J.SAFFER [JASON SAFFER] at 02:41 EST Bill, just for the record, the disappearance of the status line in WordPerfect is not a problem that has been completely resolved with the upgraded geneva.cnf file. I, and others too, have been reported the disappearance of the status line in WordPerfect which occurs when you run WordPerfect, then run another single tasking application like Aladdin, then return to WordPerfect and clear the screen. The status line disappears -- at least it does on my TT with color monitor and TOS 3.06. I know I have only one copy of geneva.cnf so that's not the problem. Other folks on this message base have verified this symptom. - Jason Saffer Hercules, California Saturday, March 5, 1994 11:41 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 59 Sun Mar 06, 1994 J.SAFFER [JASON SAFFER] at 02:46 EST >Jason and Mick, >Maybe this is an ST problem? I haven['t seen that at all on the TT. Al, no, this problem is occurring for me on my TT! - Jason Saffer Hercules, California Saturday, March 5, 1994 11:46 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 60 Sun Mar 06, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 03:01 EST Al, You just reminded me of something... I was talking to this local Atari user about 1.5 years ago about music software etc. I mentioned that I use Notator (now Notator Logic) exclusively and it works great. He told me horror stories of using it in his business. Guess what I found out... He had a pirate version of Notator and almost every other midi program ever made. I never talked to him again after that. Well... the other day when collecting my tax papers, I found an email message from him where he sent me his phone #. Hmm... maybe I should find out if he's still there. Then we can all POUNCE on him. Or at least get the ba$3@$#'s equipment confiscated. I think I ran into this slime when I was looking for a used Spectre GCR to buy. He offered to give me the Spectre software (a pirate version too). I declined and bought a real Spectre (works GREAT too!) from a fellow GEnie user instead. It me off :) even more now when I run into these guys because I know you guys (like CodeHead & Gribnif) virtually personally . Also, I can see that guy mooching on my ability to make $$$ to support my MIDI/Atari habit by pirating BiaB, etc. Mel, Thanx! I may have to look into DataDiet. Matt, Ahh... I'd prefer not to reformat my drive. I think DataDiet is the way I wanna go. Also... DataDiet is 'made' in the US. Isn't DataLite from Europe? --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 61 Sun Mar 06, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:26 EST Matt, That's correct, more or less. DATAlite doesn't actually reformat the drive; it rewrites the FAT and boot sectors, and allows the user to choose larger sector sizes. That's a pretty drastic way of squeezing data. It then creates a virtual drive that is actually one very large file. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 62 Sun Mar 06, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 10:12 EST Kevin, Yes, DATAlite is from Germany. And the point about how so many of the bad raps come from illicit users can't be made strong enough. The 'Heads have battled that for years, and most of us who have followed the careers of John & Charles know how many times they have held back their anger (or at least tried to ) when it seemed obvious that the users with the biggest problems and most outlandish bugs were ones who wouldn't have known an owner's manual if it flew in the door. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 63 Sun Mar 06, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 12:11 EST Kevin, Data Diet lets you choose exactly what you want to dietize-- partitions, directories, files, whatever. For more info, stop by CAT 2, TOP 12 (TraceTech) and ask about Data Diet. ~dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 64 Sun Mar 06, 1994 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 12:22 EST Al, that maximmum disk compression thing sure got under your skin ;-) I dont' think anyone would ever want to use that non-feature. Apart from this foolish function, DataLite is fine. John B. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 65 Sun Mar 06, 1994 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 13:14 EST DDvsDL since this drift is continuing. It has been implied that the horror stories (or negative statements) concerning Data Diet were coming from users using either pirated copies or dummies that couldn't read a manual. Since Al has now stated that the 'Heads" battle this type of miss use of programs, I have to say that the main reason I chose DataLite over DataDiet is because of Charles and John's negative statements regarding DataDiet. And I believe what the Head's say is about as right as anything can be, concerning Atari related software. John B. p.s. before this goes on for too long perhaps a Data Diet vs. Data Lite topic could be opened in CAT 18. :-) ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 66 Sun Mar 06, 1994 J.WISNIEWSK2 [Jeff - ST'er] at 14:09 EST > type of miss use of programs, I have to say that the main reason I > chose DataLite over DataDiet is because of Charles and John's > negative statements regarding DataDiet. And I believe what the Head's The subject rears it's head again. :-} ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ JSW ^^^^ ^^^^ ST'er ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Sunday, March 6, 1994 - 1:42:10 pm ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 67 Sun Mar 06, 1994 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 16:30 EST Why all this Datalite v. Data Diet discussion in the Geneva topic?? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 68 Sun Mar 06, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 16:33 EST Doug, If you suspect MemWatch, I recommend you download MemWatch 1.1. It cures a number of bizarre window glitches that occurred, with Geneva or not. I can't remember the number, but it's MEMWTCH1.ZIP. ~dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 69 Sun Mar 06, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 16:56 EST Altho' I like some German software (lots actually), but don't like some of the 'strangeness' (vector usage), I'd rather go with DataDiet because of the individual files/types/partitions selectivity, and the Author is on GEnie where I can bug him in GEmail. My current list of Atari software/hardware to buy is: NeoDesk 4 Avant Vector DataDiet ExtenDOS Pure C Profiler LoadAlad FalcSpeed 6.2 upgrade Notator Logic Audio 4 Falcon upgrade (when available) Band in a Box 6.0 (oh, I forgot... I'm writing BiaB6.0 ) ANY Geneva upgrade (got rel 003 now) Wiztronic's 040 Falcon accel & frame grabber or the other 030 accel with fastram with keyboard extender The Caged Artist's K5 and D110 editor librarians And... to get back on topic... I wish they would all work with Geneva, but I'm not too bothered that some things won't (most will). From running multitasking (yeah, real or pseudo) on my PC, I don't mind THAT much that Notator Logic or Cubase don't fare well under Geneva. Multitasking when trying to lock to SMPTE, etc, etc, often seems to leave a lot to be desired. --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 70 Sun Mar 06, 1994 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 20:35 EST Yes, a DataDiet vs. DataLITE topic in Cat 18 would be great! I don't read Cat 18. Thank you. John ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 71 Sun Mar 06, 1994 D.WALTER7 [Doug Walter] at 20:39 EST DMJ and Al, I guess I should have clarified my message a little more. I downloaded the latest version of Memwatch the day it was released. That's why the old version was deleted :-) Doug7 ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 72 Sun Mar 06, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 21:11 EST Yes Kevin, There _is_ a Santa Claus! I mean... DataLite2 is imported from overseas. Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 73 Sun Mar 06, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 22:53 EST Flat, Yep, it got to me. But I am back in normal form. :) Doug, Sorry! I didn't give you the benefit of the doubt, as they say. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 74 Mon Mar 07, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 14:53 EST John E., I'm with you. Move this DD vs. DL stuff elsewhere. Jason, All I can really say without looking at it more closely is that it sounds like Aladdin is ignoring the redraw message Geneva sends it. (Either that, or it's not getting sent for some reason.) I'll try to reproduce this myself when I go back to Geneva. Dan B., I have not run into that one, and I use CardFile 4 here all the time. Does it give you the normal "Intro" screen? Hm. I actually vaguely recall a minor bug in one of the older versions of CardFile having to do with Saving the CFG file when CardFile was in an XNote screen. Try renaming your CARDFILE.CFG to CARDFILE.CFX and running it again. Does this still happen? You can either use the default flags in the GENEVA.CNF file on the disk, or you can manually set the "Maximize window areas" flag off for WordPerfect. Chris, I haven't tried LHARC shell, but I'll download it. I think somebody else already mentioned this one. Is your customer using a Falcon? That might be another fly in the ointment where this is concerned. I didn't have any problems like that with View II when I tested it, but Damien Jones is on here frequently, so maybe he has some ideas. Mel, Do me a favor an dtell me what the file name for Freeze Dried is, and which setting is important. That way I can create a default flag for it. Ken, Sigh. I don't have any other ideas. Check GENEVA.CNF in a text editor, or from the desktop. It should be something like: [Geneva] 1.00 SS FFFF In this case, SS is the ST-compatible resolution, like 04 for ST High. FFFF is four hexadecimal digits for the Falcon resolution, like 0088 for ST High compatiblity mode. What does it say if you go to ST High and Save Settings? Kevin, I'll consider adding an alert to GNVA_DB that tells you when an app has 8 messages queued and another one is being added. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 75 Mon Mar 07, 1994 M.MOTOGAWA [MEL] at 15:43 EST Dan, I've also noticed that problem with LHarc's GEM shell. Here's a repost of my earlier msg: "Has anyone had difficulty running the new shell for Lharc 2.99, u/l'd tonight, with Geneva? (File #31767) I get a '...doesn't run in this resolution' error msg when trying to run it under Geneva release 003, but rebooting without Geneva allows it to run just fine. No amount of TM flag fiddling will make it work with Geneva resident, though." This was on a 1040 STe with TOS 1.60 and high rez. The filename I have for Freeze Dried Terminal is FZDSTERM.PRG, that's how it's named, too, in the version 2.20 demo archive. I set up a TM flag for it with all flags off since it has a non-standard interface, but the 2 flags I know it reacts adversely to are Clear Allocated Memory (causes a bus error when exiting XYZ.TTP, which FZDT called for a file transfer) and Limit Memory (throws up a FZDT error alert). These crashes only happen when you exit the file transfer utility that FZDT called, and are trying to get back to FZDT. I hope Powerdos compatibility will be possible since it's speedup over normal GEMDOS is incredible. Thanks! - Mel ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 76 Mon Mar 07, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 19:12 EST Matt, RE: Santa... I knew that. :) Now tell me something new. --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 77 Mon Mar 07, 1994 C.KROWCHUK1 [CHRIS] at 23:48 EST T.J> Didn't your parents teach you to try it before you yuck it? AL, what exactly is the "German Syndrome"? Chris @ Computer Direct. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 78 Tue Mar 08, 1994 C.BINCKLEY [-- Chuck --] at 07:37 EST Al, Before all this DL vs. DD stuff gets bumped, I just feel I need to balance things out in this topic for readers who are considering a purchase (so sue me!)... I've been using DataLite for about 6 months now and have NO horror stories to report regarding it's use. I don't have any idea why it would take someone several hours to create a DL-compressed partition, but I suspect the "maximum compression" setting. Those who have read the manual and/or followed the thread in the RT should understand that that setting is there primarily for compressing _off-line_, such as at night as the last thing one does before leaving the computer. And it still shouldn't affect _reading_ from the partition so drastically. Something is definitely wrong with that person's setup. I have used "maximum compression" a couple times to compress my meager little 40-megger, and it took somewhere between 1 and 2 hours to do it. Now, granted, that may seem to indicate up to _20 HOURS_ for a 400-meg drive; but then, products like DataLite and DataDiet are not really intended for people with so much room available - if your 1.2-gig drive is full of Group 4 TIFs, there ain't much point in trying to squeeze any more space out of it with a $60 utility program! Besides, I'm getting that 1-2 hours on a 16MHz Mega STE with a really S L O W hard drive! However, it would seem your biggest fear is the reliability of DL-compressed media. All I can say is that, again, in 6 months I've had NO drive problems attributable to DL. And the fact that it is being distributed by Bob "DiamondBack/DiamondEdge" Luneski's Oregon Research Associates is enough of an endorsement of reliability for me! On the other hand, the main reason I switched from DD to DL was DL's ease-of- use compared to DD. ONE program to compress all files. ONE-time setup. ONE decision to make - Do I compress this partition or not? DataDiet works well, and is a very solid program; but the INF file settings, the work folder, the virtual ramdisk, having to use a separate program for executables (Squish II, I believe, is still provided with DD - and I _do_ still use Squish II on my non-DL partition), and having to go through "the process" for every new set of programs and related files - while making DD an _extremely_ flexible system - became a bit too much of a chore for me. With DL, IMHO, it's virtually "set-and-forget" - I don't have to be concerned about things like which programs need what settings, when I should use hot keys to turn it off, remembering to turn it back on, etc... Enough. Suffice it to say that both work well, albeit in different ways; but I've finally gotten to the point where the point itself has become moot - I'm finally taking the advice of all those many wise persons who, from the earliest days of the DataDiet topic, repeatedly said: "Look, hard drives get cheaper every day - just get a bigger one!" ...FedEx should be delivering it tomorrow!(8^})... // // // And now a little something regarding Geneva: Kevin, Just wanted to mention that, so far, I've had NO problems with Cubase 3.02 under Geneva 003! I consider that a MAJOR miracle - although I have to admit I haven't used my SMPTE box with it yet... No-go for Dr. T's Omega II yet, though... -- Chuck -- Okay, now you can move this DL/DD stuff to another topic...(8^}) ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 79 Tue Mar 08, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:52 EST Chris, The German Syndrome? Ah, interfaces that are different just for the sake of being different. There are a couple of archive managers that fit that category; I've tried each one a couple of times, hoping I would see the logic behind the window and menu operation, but that didn't happen. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 80 Tue Mar 08, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 08:12 EST Al, Calamus SL also suffers that Syndrome. Even tho' it is powerful, I really don't like using Calamus. It's always soooo slow for doing anything needing a redraw (even with caches on), and is a hassle to work with quickly. If there weren't a possible case where I may _NEED_ SL, I'd sell it. But... on the Atari... :) Anyway, my SL seems to work fairly well under G. However, it has been about 3 months since I used SL under G. :) --Kevin PS. Anyone try Notator SL under Geneva (on a 1040???). How did that fare? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 81 Tue Mar 08, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 21:25 EST Chuck, We really should be talking about DD and DL in the new topic set up for it. But the timing results were real, and max compression is a menu item in real- time compression mode. In that mode, DL is incredibly, abysmally slow. I realize it's quite fast otherwise. I like Geneva. Take that, TopiCops! Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 82 Wed Mar 09, 1994 T.GIRSCH [TJ @ S-Mart] at 01:06 EST Chris - I wasn't yucking the particular LHARC program, but rather the slow (and often cosmetically buggy, at least in ST implementations) compression algorhythm. German Syndrome: Great program, too bad the docs are in German only! ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 83 Thu Mar 10, 1994 C.KROWCHUK1 [CHRIS] at 21:59 EST Dan, The problem with Lharc 2.99 is with 1040's, various TOS versions. I am not aware of any of my Falcon users experiencing this problem. The error message is consistent though. "Can't run in this resolution." Hope that helps. Al, Now I understand your comment about german syndrome. Actually Lharc 2.99 shell kinda resembles STZIP shell. I find them both easier to use than arcshell, which I never could figure out and trashed. Thanks to shareware I didn't part with dough on that one. IMHO only folks, no darts please!! Chris @ Computer Direct. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 84 Fri Mar 11, 1994 D.BRYANT12 [DAN BRYANT] at 02:08 EST Thanks all for the help on DataDiet with Geneva. I was running DD after Geneva rather than before. Since switching, things have gone much better. Other problems I am having with Geneva: WordPerfect will not run (2 bombs) on my STE but runs fine on my MegaSTE. It runs fine on my STE without Geneva. CardFile cannot find its data file. (Al, it does the same whether a program or accessory.) I added a setenv line to GEM.CNF as follows: setenv PATH=.,C:\GENEVA,C:\CARDFILE (My data file is in the cardfile folder.) This did not help. In all my efforts to make Geneva work, something has happened to my pointer in NeoDesk. It works fine with Geneva but disappears when I boot without Geneva. If I quit NeoDesk, it comes back. As I use WP and CardFile heavily, the first two problems have kept me from using Geneva, much to my great consternation! Dan B ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 85 Fri Mar 11, 1994 D.BRYANT12 [DAN BRYANT] at 03:12 EST Bill, I had 2 Gem.cnf files but not 2 Geneva.cnf. I will delete the extra one and see what happens. (My office machine may have the set-up you described. I'll check it out.) Gribnif Dan, I discovered my problem with CardFile--it cannot find its data file when running under Geneva. (I just discovered that the file was empty rather than stuck on the Xnote screen.) I tried changing the CFG file to CFX but no change. I also tried running it as a program instead of an accessory. I imagine I could move the data file to the ACCS folder if nothing else works. Al, Your Secrets of Geneva article is great! Are you coming out with a part 2? All, RE the DataDiet vs DataLite debate. I am to blame indirectly for its place here. I was have problems with DD and Geneva which somone mistook for DL and Geneva. From there it became DD vs DL (taste better or less filling?). As to the nitwits who don't read or don't have a manual, I have 2 graduate degrees (masters and doctorate) and have read the DD manual repeatedly but still have trouble comprehending all of it, especially the VRO part. Since Geneva came out after DD, it would have been helpful to me had the Geneva manual indicated that DD should come before Geneva in the auto folder, which was the source of all my problems. Hence, the failure of Gribnif to include it is the reason for the DD vs DL debate in this topic! Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 86 Fri Mar 11, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:58 EST Chris, No darts! The latest ARC Shell is organized in a more coherent way, and I use it only to extract, not to create, archives. (I create LZH archives by dragging a folder to the LHARC icon; neat!) But I am a confirmed fee-paying licensee of ARC Shell (did I say that right? ), and it's all second nature now. Dan, The CF problem may not be related to Geneva, a such. (Works fine on the ST and TT here.) To fix it, no matter what the cause, Move your CF data files where you want them to be, then, after CF runs, load them into CF manually. Then save them. CF will then remember where they are. As much as I like Keith Gerdes's work, I also found the Data Diet manuals exceptionally difficult to follow (and I WRITE manuals). I will go back through them and back through the readme files to see if I can understand what is going on and what Keith is recommending; otherwise, I probably will let DD remain on the sidelines for now. I haven't installed it yet. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 87 Fri Mar 11, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 08:21 EST Al, You wanna write the BiaB6.0 manual? :) I could get you a free BiaB6.0 and some other products like Jazz Pianist etc. :) :) If you're somewhat interested, just send me GEmail. :) --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 88 Fri Mar 11, 1994 R.ANISKO [Zombie] at 11:15 EST I have a quick question or two, and comment or two regarding Geneva (release 003 is what I'm running, BTW). First, and VERY importantly, *HOW* does one delete a file using the Geneva file_selector IF the file has *READ-ONLY* status? I know UIS III asked the user if s/he wanted to override the readonly, and this would be quite helpful to me. I'm talking without loading up Neodesk or some other such program... Comments time. Hmmm...: Anyone notice that MultiDial (the program that puts most alert boxes, etc in a windows - a *nice* multitasking helper) does not like to work with UIS III too much? Freezes me up sometimes (thus why I'm starting to use the built-in Geneva selector more). Has anyone tried the program AUTORAIS (or similar)? It's a program that "tops" the window that the pointer is pointing at (much like DCTopper). It saves some keystrokes here and there since all you have to do is move the mouse. Great when you have multiple tasks running (I even tracked down such a thing for Windows to use on my PC at work). A question perhaps outside the realm of this area, but: DMJ, regarding Memwatch - an idea for the future: perhaps to be able to see how much memory *each* task (run after Memwatch) is using (maybe a button to open another window with a bar graph for each task)? Just a thought... And finally, waiting anxiously for a future Geneva update to be MiNT- friendly (including maybe a file selector that can handle extended filenames?). :-) Rob/Zombie ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 89 Fri Mar 11, 1994 M.MOTOGAWA [MEL] at 11:16 EST For more info. on Data Diet in the auto folder, p. 25, par. 2 of the v2 manual is helpful. For any questions, anytime, just fire away in Cat. 2, topic 12. Thanks! - Mel ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 90 Fri Mar 11, 1994 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 13:57 EST Are you guys talking about ArcShell, by Charles F. Johnson? I can't imagine how creating an LZH archive could be any easier (especially if you've got MaxiFile). Here's how I do it: 0:00.0 Press LeftShift-A in HotWire to run ArcShell 0:00.5 Press Return in ArchShell, which is set to Add to LZH archive 0:01.0 Type the archive's name into the file selector. Within about 5 seconds, MaxiFile is on the screen, ready for me to select the files to be archived. I can select them from any directory on any drive, as many or few as I want (don't forget the "Shift" trick). The compression program does its thing and when it's done, Return and Undo take me home. There's no need to prepare anything by placing files in folders or anything. I suppose if all you want to do is archive a folder, it would be faster to just drag it to an icon, but other than that I can't imagine how anything could be faster than using ArcShell with MaxiFile. Sorry for the topic drift. I just can't believe we're talking about the same program. John ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 91 Fri Mar 11, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 19:57 EST Rob, - *HOW* does one delete a file using the Geneva file_selector - IF the file has *READ-ONLY* status? Hmmm, there doesn't seem to be a way. - ...regarding Memwatch - an idea for the future: The problem here is that TOS does _not_ provide a "legal" way for an application to determine this information. Right now everything MemWatch does is with 100% legal GEMDOS and AES calls; I'd like to keep it that way. I am looking at other ways to attack memory problems, but I can't comment on them yet. ~dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 92 Fri Mar 11, 1994 P.LEFEBVRE [Paul] at 20:23 EST To: Anyone that can help me Subj: Geneva and WordPerfect 4.1 (April 1991) I having difficulty getting WordPerfect and Geneva to work well together. After much manipulating, I have finally been able to get WordPerfect to load from Geneva. But, if I try to Retrieve a file into WordPerfect, I get 4 bombs... sometimes. I have tried this with a completely bare system (i.e. only Geneva), but it still bombs - always on the same files. Works great without Geneva, though. My setup: MegaSTe 4MB RAM TOS 2.05 AHDI 5.0 Monochrome monitor Geneva release 003 The only flags I have set for WP.PRG are : Limit memory to 1000KB Clear allocated memory Redraw upon exiting If anyone has run into this or has any suggestions for me to try, I'm all eyes. -- Paul ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 93 Fri Mar 11, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 22:28 EST Kevin, Send me e-mail describing this proposal in some detail. Rob, I like the idea of an advanced Memwatch. Careful! When you ask Damien for something, he does it! John, Your darts are safe. Many of us are zippers when compressing and ARC Shellers when decompressing (files others have created). ARC Shell makes it all easy, and the Maxi connection is wonderifulous. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 94 Fri Mar 11, 1994 C.KROWCHUK1 [CHRIS] at 22:36 EST Dan, The problem with Lharc 2.99 is with 1040's, various TOS versions. I am not aware of any of my Falcon users experiencing this problem. The error message is consistent though. "Can't run in this resolution." Hope that helps. Al, Now I understand your comment about german syndrome. Actually Lharc 2.99 shell kinda resembles STZIP shell. I find them both easier to use than arcshell, which I never could figure out and trashed. Thanks to shareware I didn't part with dough on that one. IMHO only folks, no darts please!! Chris @ Computer Direct. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 95 Fri Mar 11, 1994 C.KROWCHUK1 [CHRIS] at 23:02 EST Al, John, I am sure that ArcShell is a fine product and when used with maxifile it sounds pretty easy to use. I don't use maxifile and that along with all those gadgets to click on etc. Well, I tried STZIP one day and immediately fell in love with it, if it suffers German syndrome then I must be bilingual. After getting used to the program I started playing with some of the "not so apparent" features and didn't suffer from the panic and anxiety that occured during my initial ArcShell encounter. Lharc 2.99 shell has somewhat the same interface as STZIP and I feel comfy with it. And of course STZIP behaves under Geneva. (take that top cop!) Dart Duckin' Canuck! ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 96 Fri Mar 11, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 23:43 EST Zombie, I'm not sure, but I don't think there _is_ a way to delete read only files from the Geneva selector. But my question is... what type of problems are you having with Multidial and UIS III? I switch often between UIS and the Geneva selector and never notice any freeze ups with UIS. If it happens when some of the confirmation boxes appear, try setting Multidial to include FormDo calls for UIS. This has helped me in similar situations in other prg's. I'll play around with UIS some more to see if I can duplicate your problem, but let me (us) know if there are specific actions which cause the lock up, OK? BTW- I also use the AUTORAIS prg. It's nice. Maybe a bit more forgiving than the old DCTOPPER prg. I'm trying to get ahold of the Mauswind file that M. Burkley wrote about in the last AEO. He told me it's a 39k file, so my guess is it has some features AUTORAIS does not. Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 97 Sat Mar 12, 1994 D.WALTER7 [Doug Walter] at 00:37 EST John, Thanks for the remonder about batch processing archives with Maxifile. I had completely forgotten the obvious! Doug7 ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 98 Sat Mar 12, 1994 C.BINCKLEY [-- Chuck --] at 06:34 EST Al, Where (GENEVA) is (GENEVA) the (GENEVA) new (GENEVA) DD/DL (GENEVA) topic? Thanks! -- (GENEVA) Chuck (GENEVA) -- (8^})... ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 99 Sat Mar 12, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 11:11 EST Al, - When you ask Damien for something, he does it! Thank you. I think? Seriously, though, an "advanced" MemWatch will not be appearing any time soon. One or two key elements need to be taken care of beforehand. ~dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 100 Sat Mar 12, 1994 J.FOUCH [JIM FOUCH] at 13:33 EST Lharc 2.99: To all having problems with Lharc 2.99. It WILL run on my TT w/TOS 3.06 on my moniterm moniter TT HIGH. But, will NOT run on any other resolutions. Same on my 520ST w/TOS 1.04. Convector Pro.: On another note, is anyone having problems using Convector Pro v1.00J 4/22/92. (I'm using the special program made for the TT) It likes to bomb alot. Many times when I load an IMG file, the top portion will not be readable. This only happens while running GENEVA rel. 003. Should I set it to singletask? I have limmited the memory. This is running on a TT/030 2ST/4TT RAM, 19" Moniterm monitor (TT HIGH) No video card. Any help would be appreciated. Is this the latest version of Convertor Pro.? Jim Fouch ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 101 Sat Mar 12, 1994 R.BUSH [Richard Bush] at 15:58 EST I just found another program that causes the redraw problem in Aladdin's reply window. Towers! When I run Vince Valenti's program under Geneva, then run Aladdin, I get junk bleeding through into the reply window. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 102 Sat Mar 12, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin] at 18:40 EST Dan, This sounds like a program is setting the VDI's physical screen workstation to some values which aren't getting reset when the program terminates. I noticed this kind of stuff when I was playing with the physical workstation instead of opening a virtual workstation. Of course, I immediately quit doing that stuff. --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 103 Sat Mar 12, 1994 D.BRYANT12 [DAN BRYANT] at 23:10 EST Al, Thanks for the suggestion on CardFile. Saving the configuration worked, although I do not understand why since it was the same configuration I used without Geneva. Now can you tell my why when I have WordPerfect running I can use some accessories (e.g. UIS III and MultiDesk Deluxe) but not others (EdHak, CardFile, Control Panel, NeoControl)? They appear but immediately go to the background and stay there despite all my efforts to bring them up. Mel, If that note on p. 25 had been with the installation instructions, it would have saved me a lot of headache! Dan B ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 104 Sun Mar 13, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 11:36 EST Dan, No, I don't know why the DAs behave that way. That's truly odd. I'll play with WP on both machines here and see if the DAs do that at any time. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 105 Sun Mar 13, 1994 S.BLACKBURN [STEVE] at 11:38 EST Tomas, Well, hope you get it back soon.....hope it works! Mel, Thanks, I'll give that a shot. Steve ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 106 Sun Mar 13, 1994 D.SMITH118 at 23:35 EST Am I still out of luck with Dr. T's Tiger Cub? Also I have V1.0. Are there more current V's yet Dano' ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 107 Tue Mar 15, 1994 Y.DUFRESNE [Papageno] at 02:45 EST Damien (DMJ, I think I found a little bug with MemWatch. (Sorry!) It scrambles all the screen after a while if a screen saver is installed. At least, it does so with both Idle 2.2 and TT-Artist 1.6. Something like 5 to 10 minutes after the saver has kiked in, I get garbage on the screen. Move the mouse of touch the keyboard and everything gets back to normal. Not really dangerous but annoying. Yanick @ CGA ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 108 Tue Mar 15, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 16:55 EST Everyone, I'm printing out all the notes about the LHARC shell, so that I will have them when I get back to Geneva. Jim F., There is a problem with loading IMG's in Convector (yes, you have the most recent one.) For me, it's always been strictly cosmetic and can be cleared up by first clicking on the full size window gadget, and then clicking anywhere on either scroll bar to get the image to redraw. From there it vectorizes just fine. You shouldn't need to adjust any flags for it; the same problem sometimes shows up even without Geneva. Zombie, You can't delete a read-only file from the item selector. I may add it in the future. Extended filename support (for other filesystems) is one of those things that, while useful for a few people, is not very high on my list due to the complexity involved and the relatively small number of people who would benefit. Paul L., See my comments to Dan, below. Dan B., Check to make sure you are not running two copies of NeoDesk. If you have one set to autorun from DESKTOp/NEWDESk.INF and also have the "shell" command in GEM.CNF, then you do. Also, if you have NeoDesk's "Unloadigh oExecute" option on, you must turn it off. I think this will solve all your problems. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 109 Tue Mar 15, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 21:09 EST Yanick, Thanks for the report. I don't use either Idle h oTT-Artist (EOS is my saver of choice) so I'm not sure where to begin looking. Make sure you use MemWatch 1.1; it will not redraw its window unless memory status changes, and this cured numerous screen saver problems. (MemWatch redraws and Spin Dry created some... unusual screens.) If you are using 1.1, let me know in CAT 2, TOP 6 (dmj software) and I will add it to my list of things to check when I get back to MemWatch. ~dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 110 Tue Mar 15, 1994 R.SCHILLING [Rob] at 22:23 EST Hi All, I just got Geneva and am quite excited at what it is doing for my computing. I've had some initial problems, however, and thought someone may have some answers. First, when using TouchUp and 2Columns printer, the mouse will disappear from the screen, and will only reappear when moved over the menu bar. Convector TT bombs out when I open IMG files. I've had several printing problems with Pagestream 2.2, which I have been unable to isolate. But sometimes when trying to print, I get 2 bombs and then a crash. Thanks in advance for your ideas h osuggestions. Rob ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 111 Tue Mar 15, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 23:51 EST Dan (@ GRIBNIF Say... if your keeping notes to look at when you get beck to Geneva... I'd like to request Geneva's file selector be made able to recognize the old DC program DC_RT_DC.PRG, which causes a single rt. mouseclick to be read as a double left. I have _no_ idea whether this is a simple thing h onot, but I do know that it works fine with UIS_III. I really like G's selector, and use it as the default, but I sure do miss that single Rt = double Lt thing! Thanks, Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 112 Wed Mar 16, 1994 M.POCHE [Mick] at 01:44 EST Rob, I've used TouchUp (v.1.56) under Geneva with no problems. I suggest you experiment with the flags settings and see if you get some better results. As for PageStream and bombs when trying to print, try setting the 'limit memory' flag so that PGS doesn't hog all of your memory. That should solve your printing problems. - Mick ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 113 Wed Mar 16, 1994 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 02:18 EST I have recently found that programs are exiting to Geneva instead of to NeoDesk. Have I set something wrong? Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 114 Wed Mar 16, 1994 C.BINCKLEY [-- Chuck --] at 07:33 EST Dan, I agree with Matt - I'm used to the Little Green Selector's ability to select and "Okay" a file with a right mouse click, and it's one of the few things I really miss in Geneva's selector. Please consider adding this feature to the selector. Thanks! -- Chuck -- ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 115 Wed Mar 16, 1994 JIM.K [Jim~ST Sysop] at 12:56 EST Dan, Let me make that three-I miss the right click acting like a left double click. Also, It seems that my windows, when opened in NeoDesk, are not 3D. That is, my NeoDesk windows. When running a program, I get 3D, from the Neodesk desktop, no 3D. Jim Kudron 16Mar94 12:44:18 ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 116 Wed Mar 16, 1994 L.BUDNICK [Lorne] at 21:28 EST Dan, Al, ??? If I understand things correctly, until Neo 4.0 is released there is not a replacement desktop that will run in multitasking mode under Geneva. Is this a true statement? If this is correct, when might one expect Neo 4.0 to be available for shipping and for ordering? I NEED A DESKTOP with GENEVA!!!! Thanks, Lorne.... ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 117 Wed Mar 16, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 23:49 EST Jim [ST Sysop] I think that problem has been reported here before. If memory serves, it had something to do with the .RSC files. Make sure you are using the NeoD. 3.04 .RSC files. That may fix it. Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 118 Thu Mar 17, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 00:13 EST Lorne, The current version of NeoDesk (3.03) will work flawlessly with Geneva, when patched to version 3.04 with the patch included (?) with the Geneva disks. Do yourself a _big_ favor and give NeoDesk a try. Your going to like it! Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 119 Thu Mar 17, 1994 R.BUSH [Richard Bush] at 03:11 EST >I have recently found that programs are exiting to Geneva instead of >to NeoDesk. Have I set something wrong? That's interesting. I've just noticed the same thing. It started (I think) about three days ago. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 120 Thu Mar 17, 1994 T.GIRSCH [TJ @ S-Mart] at 03:39 EST *SN >I have recently found that programs are exiting to Geneva instead of >to NeoDesk. Have I set something wrong? I don't think so. In fact, I just recently noticed the same thing, but after I did, I realized that I'd never actually looked before to see where programs exit to. I think they _always_ exit to Geneva Manager instead of NeoDesk. Could be wrong, tho... - T.J. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 121 Thu Mar 17, 1994 G.FUHRMAN [gnox] at 07:02 EST I think using a rightclick to select-and-open files in the file selector is a good idea, although I don't really miss that feature of LGS because Geneva's selector is even better for keyboard-only use than LGS. What I'd like is another 10 pre-set paths! And maybe filename wildcards at the end of the paths - I do have one question about the item selector though - it seems to access the hard drive every time I use it, while LGS seemed to find what it needed in the cache most of the time (I use CACHE200.PRG in my auto folder and have tried it both before and after Geneva - no difference). Is there a reason for this? By the way, Gribnif, thanks for getting the package to me so fast! I'm already getting accustomed to Geneva. gnox ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 122 Thu Mar 17, 1994 JIM.K [Jim~ST Sysop] at 13:06 EST Matt, Thanks. Hmm..I think I shipped my disk to Gribnif with the order for 4.0..I know I made a backup..If I can't locate it, I'll just wait for the 4.0 package, which should be shipping soon, right Dan? Jim Kudron 17Mar94 12:57:28 ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 123 Thu Mar 17, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 19:06 EST Lorne, No, NeoDesk 3.04 will operate under Geneva as a multitasking desktop. The patch files are included with Geneva. Any other file launcher, unless it was specifically designed to launch programs in a multitasking fashion, will only allow you to launch a single application. You can still run other applications from Geneva's or the Task Manager's menu. ~dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 124 Thu Mar 17, 1994 L.BUDNICK [Lorne] at 23:43 EST Matt & dmj, Thanks for the info. This leaves only a few additional questions. 1) Does anyone know if NeoDesk is compatible with the CyRel Graphics card? 2) How long will it be until version 4.0 is released? 3) If I purchase version 3.04 at this time, how much will it be to upgrade to 4.0 when it is released? Thanks in advance, Lorne.... ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 125 Fri Mar 18, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 00:38 EST TJ and R. Bush- Excuse my mis-understanding but, when you say programs are exiting to Geneva instead of to NeoDesk... What does that mean? Are you quiting out of APP's to find yourself at the Geneva Manager instead of NeoDesk? Clarification welcomed! Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 126 Fri Mar 18, 1994 T.GIRSCH [TJ @ S-Mart] at 01:41 EST Matt - Launch a program from NeoDesk (while under Geneva), and then quit it. At first glance, it looks like NeoDesk is topped, but look more closely: the menu bar is Geneva's. Your first click on a NeoDesk object automatically switches you into NeoDesk anyway. - T.J. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 127 Fri Mar 18, 1994 G.FUHRMAN [gnox] at 05:04 EST OK, here come the rookie questions ... Does anybody know how to get Scanlite to work with Geneva? So far I've found that when Geneva is loaded, Scanlite bombs trying to load, either on bootup or afterwards, even with hardly anything else in the system. Hotkeys for switching to specific loaded applications or ACCs don't appear to be saved with "Save Settings" - why is that? And a comment: I've given in and added LGS back into my Geneva system; there were too many things about it I missed ... and besides, I found that using the Fkeys in Geneva's item selector when loading or saving files with EdHak caused the abrupt departure of EdHak! Anyone else seen this? gnox ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 128 Fri Mar 18, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 21:16 EST gnox, Make sure when you set up hot keys for an application, you are _not_ changing the in-memory version. That won't be saved. Open the Task Manager and make sure _none_ of the applications are selected. Now click Flags and create a _new_ flag for the program you want. Save your settings. Dan, This particular problem seems to recur frequently. Maybe it would help if the Task Manager put up a warning if you changed the flags of a program in memory? You know, like "Any changes you make to this program will NOT be savable?" Either that, or totally re-design the system... I think an alert would be easier. ;-) ~dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 129 Fri Mar 18, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 23:19 EST TJ - Sorry, it doesn't work that way on _my_ set up! If I launch then quit a program from NeoD (as Geneva's shell) I go straight to the NeoDesktop, complete with NeoD menu bar. Do you have Geneva loading NeoD. ala the Shell command in the GEM.CNF file? Are you sure you have NeoDesks 'unload for execute' command _de-selected_? For best results, I believe NeoDesk (when run with Geneva) should never unload for execute. If you do have 'unload' de-selected, and said so in your post, forgive me. I'm too lazy to search my archives and don't remember off hand! Hope this helps... Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 130 Sat Mar 19, 1994 E.MONACO [DataBasement] at 01:16 EST Dan, I was able to get LHARC Shell 2.99 to run with Geneva using MonSTer (the virtual screen enlarger). It runs... but it shore ain't pretty. Objects are not sized correctly and in the credits dialog some of the text is to big to fit inside it correctly anymore. The shell makes use of the Enhanced GEM library. And judging by just what I've seen through observation I think it is that code which is interacting with Geneva in an unusal way. The shell runs fine with MonSTer w/o Geneva and everything is cosmetically correct. Regards, Erin @DataBasement Software. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 131 Sat Mar 19, 1994 VORTEXT at 02:14 EST Dan, There seems to be a bug while working with SL under Geneva. For one thing, the module icons that appear across the top row do not switch properly while switching modules. Normally, whatever module you are working in is highlighted. Under Geneva however, this selection process doesn't always happen. One is deselected without another one selecting. The modules switch alright. In other words, functionally they work. You simply can't tell where you are by looking at the top row anymore. Also, only one half of a double page spread will redraw when making changes to the text. In order to see the change you need to either switch pages and come back, or zoom into where you are working. real odd. Also, I stil can't get Aladdin to find its own files. I've tried playing with the path statement, I've tried putting a specific statement for Aladdin in, nothing. It only sees them if I move them into the root of 'C'. Anyone have any ideas? I'm running out. Daniel ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 132 Sat Mar 19, 1994 VORTEXT at 02:31 EST Lorne, Yes, NeoDesk works with the cyrel card. I use it. Finally got Geneva up enough to start playing with it in a limited fashion. I use Neodesk as the shell. Get it. That's all I can say. Get it. BTW - 4 looked pretty interesting at the Sac show. Can't wait. Daniel ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 133 Sat Mar 19, 1994 T.GIRSCH [TJ @ S-Mart] at 04:33 EST Matt - Yes, I'm loading Neo ala Geneva's "shell" command, and no I'm not unloading for execute. But now it's not exhibiting this behavior any more, but I _do_ remember it happening, and I can't seem to figure out why. Perhaps Dan can shed some light on this the next time he puts his Geneva hat on. - T.J. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 134 Sat Mar 19, 1994 G.FUHRMAN [gnox] at 06:18 EST dmj, Thanks! I think you fingered my problem, and now I'll be even more comfortable with Geneva than I already am. :) gnox ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 135 Sat Mar 19, 1994 L.BUDNICK [Lorne] at 10:17 EST Daniel, Thanks for the words of encouragement regarding Neo and the CyRel card. I guess I will just have to get my order in. It sounds like it will be well worth it. I would still be interested in knowing whether the release of 4.0 is eminent. Lorne.... ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 136 Sat Mar 19, 1994 R.SCHILLING [Rob] at 11:50 EST Hi All, As an update to my last post, re: ConvecTT.PRG and Geneva, I have found some IMG files which will not crash ConvecTT, but I can't figure out why some will and some won't. But, there is definitely a major problem going on with these two programs. I have sent 2 sample IMG files (one good, one bad) to Dan for analysis. Also, I cannot get Scanlite to work under Geneva. Seems to bomb every time. In addition, Studio Photo locks up under Geneva. It appears to boot properly, but locks up when the tool box is accessed. Any suggestions are appreciated. Thanks--Rob ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 137 Sat Mar 19, 1994 R.BUSH [Richard Bush] at 12:57 EST >Excuse my mis-understanding but, when you say programs are exiting to >Geneva instead of to NeoDesk... What does that mean? When you exit out of the program it says Geneva up on the left end of the menu bar instead of NeoDesk. The desktop is, of course, still there and opening a window (or selecting NeoDesk from the menu) returns you to NeoDesk. It may have been doing it all along and I just noticed-- or not. It's mostly a cosmetic thing and doesn't happen all the time. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 138 Sat Mar 19, 1994 R.SCHILLING [Rob] at 14:51 EST Hi All, I'm using UIS III with Geneva, but really like the Geneva Selector. Is there a way to read or print files with Geneva file selector via DC SHOWER, as I can in UIS? This is the only feature that's holding me back from the switch. I've also had a problem with Aladdin finding its own files. When I use the connect history command from the file menu, Aladdin puts up a message that it can't find Connect History. BTW, I'm using the latest version of Aladdin w/ LoadAlad. Thanks--Rob ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 139 Sat Mar 19, 1994 T.HEBEL [Spud Boy] at 17:49 EST Lorne, I use NeoDesk and Geneva on my Cyrel card in 1024x768x256 everyday. It works great! I have had a few glitches in the True Color mode with NEOdesk. But, I haven't isolated the probelm yet. It works, but the colors are a little funky in the TC modes. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 140 Sat Mar 19, 1994 VORTEXT at 19:43 EST Neo 4 was said to be due in about 3 weeks. Is that soon enough? I put in my order. Daniel ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 141 Sat Mar 19, 1994 E.MONACO [DataBasement] at 21:18 EST Dan, When I set the default flags to single-tasking and I don't use neodesk when the program exits I get dumped to a blank window with no menu bar. When this happens I have to reboot. Is this a problem or am I doing something wrong? If I use NeoDesk then I can click on one of its windows and I'll be given the neodesk menu so thats what I am doing right now. Regards, Erin @DataBasement Software. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 142 Sat Mar 19, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 21:21 EST Daniel, Can't tell you much about your problems with Aladdin. I keep all my Aladdin files (and ALAD.PRG) in an ALADDIN folder on partition G, and have never had any trouble with file location. I have seen the menu icon problem you speak of in Calamus SL though. I never mentioned it because like you say, it doesn't impair the functionality of the thing, just makes it somewhat cosmetically undesirable. BTW, the problem only occurs on my system after I have loaded a document. I can switch between the modules all I want prior to loading a CDK with no trace of the problem at all. I realize the modules are of no use without a file loaded in, but if anyone is going to try to figure out the cause, it may be useful info! _____ Richard Bush - Very odd indeed! I'm knocking on wood but I've never had this occur. I always return to the NeoDesk menu header when exiting from prg's. Gee, maybe my luck isn't _all_ bad after all! __________ Rob S.- A dumb question perhaps, but do you have the 'History' box selected in the Configuration option of Aladdin? (you find it under the File option, and it is selected it it is inverse, or light text in a dark box) If this is not selected, Aladdin will not create and store the history files/info. Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 143 Sat Mar 19, 1994 P.LOUIE1 at 23:45 EST Hi everyone, I finally got Geneva to work correctly! I'd just like to thank Dan for helping me get this program running without bombs, missing mouse pointers and garbled menus. At the SAC Expo, I told him about my problems, and then he said to turn off the "Unload for execute" option and showed me where it was located. I believe someone in this topic suggested this too, but I couldn't find it. (It's under the Set Preferences option) So now I'm finally multitasking! :-) Rob, You might want to try what I did above. Those problems sound like what I had. -Phil ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 144 Sat Mar 19, 1994 G.FUHRMAN [gnox] at 23:56 EST Rob, I can't get Scanlite to work with Geneva either. In fact I mentioned it a few days ago and was beginning to think I was the only one! Odd, you'd think lots of Geneva owners would be using Scanlite. One thing I haven't tried yet is booting up with Scanlite and then running Geneva from the desktop. I'm not optimistic though. gnox ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 145 Sun Mar 20, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 12:01 EST Rob S., Currently there is no way to display files right from the Geneva Selector. "Fixing" this has been suggested to Dan. ;-) ~dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 146 Sun Mar 20, 1994 L.BUDNICK [Lorne] at 14:08 EST Spud Boy, Thanks for the info regarding your experiences with the CyRel card. I guess there is no longer any reason for not getting my order placed. Daniel, Soon enough! Order to be placed almost immediately. :^) Lorne.... ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 147 Sun Mar 20, 1994 S.FOSKETT [Lancer] at 16:02 EST This may sound odd, but is there any interest out there for a Windows-style Program Manager/File Manager combination "desktop" to control Geneva? I was thinking this morning that that would make a fantastic combination! Also, how long 'till we see the MiNT/Powerdos friendly version of Geneva??? And NeoDesk4??? .s. (don't even have Geneva yet... What's Toad's address on here?) ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 148 Sun Mar 20, 1994 M.OSTRANDER1 [Mike O] at 16:12 EST I don't have any problem running Scanlite (usually from Coalesce) under Geneva with NeoDesk. MEGA4, TOS 1.04, AdSpeed 16. Perhaps because I have Coalesce set with its multitask flag off (I don't remember why I made this change)? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 149 Sun Mar 20, 1994 E.MONACO [DataBasement] at 18:03 EST Dan, Discovered another slight problem with Geneva. When I run SPEEDOM as single- tasking and click both buttons outside its window I have to click on the window elements repeatedly before they will react. The program still gets WM_REDRAW messages though because the display is constantly updated. When I run it from within Lattices integrated shell if I even click one button outside the window everything freezes up until I keep clicking on window gadets till one responds. Multitasking seems to work fine. Regards, Erin @DataBasement Software. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 150 Sun Mar 20, 1994 G.FUHRMAN [gnox] at 18:35 EST Maybe it's only the TT that has trouble with Scanlite/Geneva? Or maybe there's something that can be done in the flags or the GEM.CNF? I tried CONVECTT from Geneva today, and sure enough, as soon as I tried to load an IMG, bombs away. I don't recall ever seeing Convector crash by itself. gnox ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 151 Sun Mar 20, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 19:39 EST Lancer, Toad's address is "TOAD-SERV."--remember the period, it's important. There are a lot of people who absolutely loathe the split management of Windoze (and the mutated spelling should give you an idea how _I_ feel ;-) but I'm sure Dan will listen to opinions on this matter. As for when NeoDesk 4 will be ready, who can say? Whenever it's finished, I'm sure it will be worth the wait. ~dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 152 Sun Mar 20, 1994 S.FOSKETT [Lancer] at 20:41 EST RE: Toad Thanks. I expect to be ordering a copy of Geneva from them! *grin* RE: Program/Task/File manager Actually, I see it as being somewhat like the Codeheads' Hotwire. A Geneva- friendly Program Manager which shows your programs as icons and ONLY programs. Then the Geneva fileselector (or something like Multifile) could be used as a file manager... Viola: Instant Windows! AFAIK, Microsoft is apparently dropping this split paradigm with Win4... They'll more more toward the GEM/Mac programs-and-files desktop... One more question: Does Geneva obviate WINX? I would think it would... I mean, with Geneva running, can I access underlying window gadgets without topping them? Do I get 3D window gadgets on untopped windows? Does WINCOLOR (the German CPX, not Atari's) work with Geneva? .s. (I'll upload BOAST program #2, wincolor, soon!) ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 153 Sun Mar 20, 1994 VORTEXT at 22:14 EST Well Matt, my Aladdin is also in such a folder on partition G. What's your GEM.CNF look like? Do you have a special flags menu for Aladdin? Is there perhaps a pref in Aladdin itself that may not be set correctly. There has to be an answer here and I should would love to find it. Thanks. Daniel ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 154 Mon Mar 21, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 00:37 EST Daniel (VORTEXT) Below is a copy of my GEM.CNF file. Pretty simple. Below it, I've also put in the line from my GENEVA.CNF file. # GEM.CNF: written by INSTALL.PRG # shell C:\NEODESK3\NEODESK.EXE setenv ACCPATH=C:\ setenv PATH=.,C:\GENEVA setenv ACCEXT=ACC,ACX setenv GEMEXT=PRG,APP,GTP,EXE setenv TOSEXT=TOS,TTP setenv SHOWHELP=C:\GENEVA\HELP\GNVAHELP setenv TOSRUN=C:\GENEVA\GNVA_TOS.PRG # Other commands: # run Runs a program with parameters # runsleep Runs program, puts it to sleep # shell Runs program as the shell # run C:\GENEVA\SETMOUSE\SETMOUSE.PRG # end of GEM.CNF **Here is the line from the Geneva.CNF: {*ALAD.PRG} {ST Aladdin} 7A180000 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 I don't think I changed any of the pre-set flags, but these are the flags I have _selected_: Clear allocated memory Maximize window areas Redraw upon exiting Special obhect types Rounded buttons Automatic keyboard equivs Undraw auto keyboard equivs Can't think of any config. setting I might have changed within Aladdin, at all. Let me know how your flags differ, if at all. Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 155 Mon Mar 21, 1994 R.ANISKO [Zombie] at 15:45 EST Lancer, I dunno about a Windows' style Program/File manager. On the Windozed PC I have at work, I don't use the file manager, and have the Program manager "hidden." However, there is a nice program I use (called Backmenu (with Finder)) which basically is a nice Xwindows-like interface - I can simply right-click, and click on a choice (or subchoice) to choose something. It also lists available tasks and program manager groups. This would be more in line with my choices. Oh well, maybe it'll give me an excuse to try programming it :-) Rob/Zombie ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 156 Mon Mar 21, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 16:50 EST Mike O, Maybe this is a later version of ScanLite. I couldn't get it to work at all (see my message, below, about my solution.) Lancer, There already is such a program. It's called NeoDesk . It will be at least two months, at this point. I'm still finishing NeoDesk 4. You can use Geneva with MiNT now, but it's pretty slow, and there are some problems with programs finding their data files. Yes, Geneva makes WINX obsolete. You also get the 3D gadgets, regardless of what window it is. If the German CPX you mention uses the documented way of setting the window colors (like Atari's does) then it will work with Geneva. Daniel, I'm aware of the icon problem in SL, but I hadn't seen the double page thing. I'm printing out your letter. Erin, If I can get MonSTer to run for a long anough period, I'll check this out. I've had it crash very easily, even without Geneva. The problem you've noticed with the blank menu bar is one that I'm aware of and will be fixing in the next version. It's related to switching between two single-tasking applications and then quitting one. There's no remedy I know of other than to not switch between single-tasking apps. I think what you noticed with SPEEDOM is part of the same problem I've already told you about. DMJ, I really want to redesign the Task Manager in general. I think what I might do in the next version instead is to say "Create a permanent flag with these settings?" gnox, I just tried it here, and if I first access the C: drive, then close the file selector and re-open it, there is no visible disk access. Are you using Atari's AHDI or ICD? I found that ScanLite makes some bad assumptions about how a desk accessory should be loaded and cannot work that way from Geneva. It can, however, be loaded as a program if you change its name to SCANLITE.PRG. It works normally at that point. For the answer to your question about the keys to switching to a specific application, read page 49 of the manual. There does seem to be a problem with loading certain IMG's into Convector, and it's related to the fact that it always comes up with a full-sized window. I'm going to investigate this more when I get back to Geneva. Jim K., You need to use the alternate RSC files contained in the SRSC.SFX file on the NeoDesk 3.04 patch disk. Lorne, Version 3 works pretty well with the CyRel, but could not set the colors properly. NeoDesk 4 should be perfect. NeoDesk 4 will be out in April. I'm working as fast as I can. You can upgrade from 3 to 4 for $25 + $3 S&H (in the US.) Bill, TJ & Richard, The only case when programs should exit to the Geneva manager menu rather than to NeoDesk is if you run them from something other than NeoDesk. Versions before 003 would also sometimes do this under other circumstances, but I don't know of any reason why 003 would do this. If you put the current program to sleep, then the Geneva Manager menu might be the one that comes up, rather than NeoDesk. If any of you can come up with a definite series of steps where it happens on a bare system, please let me know. Matt, I'll see if that can be changed. I'm kind of surprised it won't already work with DC_RT_DC. I did look into having it emulate what DC_RT_DC does, but that is not very easy to do. Rob, Please see my private email message about Convector. I have found that PageStream sometimes crashes simply because it doesn't have enough memory. You might want to try increasing the Limit Memory flag amount in the Task Manager. See above about ScanLite. I'm aware of the Studio Photo problem, and have already fixed it for the next version of Geneva. Ah, those wonderful undocumented AES "features". Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 157 Mon Mar 21, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 19:12 EST Lancer, Although I own HotWire and MaxiFile, that particular setup just doesn't "work" for me. For the same reason, I loathe Windoze. However, the popularity of HotWire certainly indicates that for many people, it works. (BTW, Microsloth _is_ dropping the split Program/File Manager concept with Chicago; they're moving towards something more like the Mac and, oddly enough, NeoDesk 3. Their only problem is they act like they thought of it.) You should not run WINX with Geneva. Geneva provides 3D gadgets on windows, including the untopped ones. I don't know what WINCOLOR is, so I can't help you there. (In general I don't use CPXs.) ~dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 158 Mon Mar 21, 1994 G.NELSON16 [GFN] at 20:01 EST Dan, When I first got Geneva and tried to run Aladdin from NeoDesk my screen blanked out (what I call Dreaded White Screen Syndrome. I since have gotten Aladdin to run but not from NeoDesk. I first put ND3.04 to sleep then run aladdin. Even though Aladin is set up to single task. What is wrong wiith the picture? Another quirk I have noticed is that Atari Works tends to get spastic on me when resizing and selecting windows. What happens is it appears that a key is being continuosly depressed and I can usually stop it by calling the Item selector. Another thing is last night I apparently could not open folders in my file selector. I really can not tell why that started. GFN ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 159 Mon Mar 21, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 21:55 EST Dan, Thanks for looking into the DC_RT_DC thing. As Mork from Ork might say... " I tip my cripla to you... " While I'm asking favors... I just noticed that in 2 col. mode, the Geneva selector will not allow a no-sort listing. The 'None' option is greyed out. Is this a tech. problem, or do I have a munged file somewhere? It's easy enough to switch to 1 col for this, or just check a no sort order from NeoD, but as I use the 2 col as default, it would save a step. (Not a big one... but what the hey!) Also, perhaps you could give G's selector an option to display hidden files? Either greyed out (first choice) or indicated by some other character, like a checkmark? I don't want to be greedy here, but these are a couple of the things I miss after using UIS_III for so long. Thanks again, Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 160 Mon Mar 21, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin!] at 22:23 EST Don't even think about a separate FIleMunger and ProgramMunger! I'm serious. --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 161 Mon Mar 21, 1994 B.DEWITT [Perfesser] at 22:26 EST Has anyone had success using InShape with Geneva? It loads all right, but will not relinquish control once it is running. Since I am a new Geneva user, I'm not sure if flags of some kind need to be set or what. I've tried unchecking the multitasking button for it, but that doesn't seem to make any difference. There seems to be no way to even access Geneva from within InShape without quitting the program, and it certainly won't switch applications with any key combination as far as I can tell. After quitting InShape its name will go into the Task Manager menu, but cannot be checked, although it can be selected. Also as many times as it is loaded, its name will be placed in the Task Manager menu (so if you load it three times and quit three times, its name will be listed three times in the menu). Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated. Th'Perfesser ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 162 Mon Mar 21, 1994 T.HEBEL [Spud Boy] at 22:31 EST Mike O, What flags do you have set for Scnalite and Coalesce? I have had good luck with Coalesce but haven't been able to get Scanlite to work on my TT030 with a Cyrel card and Geneva. Lorne, You are welcome! ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 163 Mon Mar 21, 1994 S.FOSKETT [Lancer] at 23:00 EST >DMJ [dmj] at 19:12 EST >You should not run WINX with Geneva. Geneva provides 3D gadgets on windows, >including the untopped ones. I don't know what WINCOLOR is, so I can't help >you there. (In general I don't use CPXs.) Wincolor allows you to select colors/patterns for all the window gadgets, including hidden ones, and including those on untopped windows. I use it to make all of my windows look similar but with a "highlight" on the topped window. Also, if you are creative with the settings, you can get a pseudo-3D look to the gadgets... Gribnif guys: Is there a way to order Geneva and NeoDesk 4 right now? I mean, I don't really WANT ND3 but I probably WILL want ND4. And I don't want to have to spend $25 more to update ND3 to 4 when 4 comes out. But I DO want Geneva. Is there a nice package deal available for Geneva/ND4? danke! .s. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 164 Tue Mar 22, 1994 D.BRYANT12 [DAN BRYANT] at 01:40 EST For some reason unbeknowst to me, my Task Manager menu is all squished together. My 7 accessories are listed in a little box about big enough for 3. Any idea on the cause of this anyone? (The backslash has also been replaced by "bel" in tiny letters arranged diagonally--is this wierd or what?) Dan B. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 165 Tue Mar 22, 1994 VORTEXT at 02:15 EST Dan, I've just been informed that the Redraw problem is that the screen only redraws that portion which was under the PKS editor. Strange. Well Matt. My GEM.CNF file is the same. The flags are the same. It still won't work for me. I don't understand why. I suppose I should just give up and move all my Aladdin files to the root of C. I don't want to, but i do want to be able to use Geneva consistantly. I really wish I knew what was going on. Daniel. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 166 Tue Mar 22, 1994 VORTEXT at 02:52 EST Well, I found it. The trouble with Aladdin and Geneva is ExtenDOS. For some reason if I disable ExtenDOS, then aladdin works just fine. Now to figure out why. But I'll leave that up to you folks, hopefully. Daniel ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 167 Tue Mar 22, 1994 G.FUHRMAN [gnox] at 05:31 EST Dan, thanks for the Scanlite PRG tip; I'll try that. WordPerfect users - Help! WP ran fine for me at first, but I must have changed something that I didn't make note of, because now I get a crash every time I run WP with Geneva. Can someone tell me how the flags are set for WP, and whether you have anything in GEM.CNF for it? gnox ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 168 Tue Mar 22, 1994 M.OSTRANDER1 [Mike O] at 07:21 EST Spud Boy, SCANLITE.PRG COALESCE.PRG Multitask X Maximize window areas X X Special object types X X Rounded buttons X X Automatic keyboard equivs X X Undraw auto keyboard equivs X X AES 4.0 extended messages X X I don't remember why I have the flags set this way (mostly defaults), but it works for my purposes. I mostly use SCANLITE through COALESCE for 8.5x11 page copies. I never use SCANLITE as a traditional accessory, but, under GENEVA, I can just run the .PRG version whenever I want to switch to SCANLITE. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 169 Tue Mar 22, 1994 R.ANISKO [Zombie] at 14:35 EST Dmj, Regarding Windows 4.0 (aka "Chicago"): yep, it sure does look like Neodesk/Mac. Now all those poor neophytes who had to learn the cumbersome Program manager are now gonna have to learn a new (albeit easier) way to do things. Confusion will rule (and so will the help lines, if they decide to charge people for it :-) Personally, what I would like would be a way *IN THE FILE SELECTOR* to be able to switch tasks, that is, a button that when clicked on would display available tasks - and one could switch from there. This would allow you to switch out of some programs that don't have the ACCessories menu available... Still, I like Geneva a lot - quite a piece of work... Rob/Zombie ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 170 Tue Mar 22, 1994 P.BULLOCK2 [PETER] at 17:14 EST Dan, I had the 'squished' task manager problem, too. Then I discovered I had the old geneva files mixed in with the new version and it screwed everything up. Check that all the old filez have been deleted. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 171 Tue Mar 22, 1994 K.GERDES [TraceTech] at 19:17 EST Rob, >I've also had a problem with Aladdin finding its own files. When >I use the connect history command from the file menu, Aladdin puts >up a message that it can't find Connect History. BTW, I'm using >the latest version of Aladdin w/ LoadAlad. Do you run LoadAlad from Geneva (shell or taskman) or NeoDesk? This is on a Falcon, right? Does LoadAlad+Aladdin have problems finding the files when you're not in the Geneva environment? - Keith ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 172 Tue Mar 22, 1994 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 19:31 EST Even Norton Desktop isn;t as good as Neodesk. Are we light years ahead of them or what? :-) ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 173 Tue Mar 22, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 20:13 EST Matt, If you were to list files and folders unsorted, it's possible that a folder will come _after_ a file. Geneva's selector automatically sorts folders to the top of the list, if it's sorting. I would presume in 2-column mode it's relying on this fact to simplify keeping folders and files straight. Having a no-sort option for 2-column mode would probably complicate things quite a bit. Zombie, Microsloth _already_ charges for support. They're gonna have a field day with Windoze 4. And that's _assuming_ they actually get the interface right; there track record in this area doesn't inspire confidence. You can't switch tasks in the fileselector in Geneva because it's a modal form of input. That is, nothing else can happen while it's on the screen. Any program which opens a window will let you switch tasks under Geneva, even if they don't display a menu (you'll see another app's menus instead). ~dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 174 Tue Mar 22, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 20:43 EST Dan B.- Try checking to see what size font you have set in Windows, under the Options list in Task Manager. The only time I have seen squished text like you describe is when I have tried to use a font that was too small for the resolution I wanted to use it in. I think the 'bel' thing is font related too. I see it sometimes when I am trying out different system fonts. Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 175 Tue Mar 22, 1994 A.PETRIE1 [Suzie/AL] at 21:17 EST I went down to the Computer zone in North Attleboro Mass. last Sat. to watch an expert put Geneva through it's paces. Quite an impressive show, it was made to look so easy. Needless to say I now am the proud but frustrated owner of Geneva. It takes a little getting used to and a fair amount of trial and error to get some things running properly. For quite a while I couldn't get wordperfect to work, I would get two bombs every time. after considerable fiddling with the geneva.cnf it finaly would run, but upon exiting would not return to any thing just went to a blank screen with the message reloading at the top (I assume it was trying to reload Neodesk) after several hours of reading, swearing and fiddling that seems to work correctly now.(not sure why, but won't mess with sucess) Word writer has a small quirk, the first time I try to load a doc I get 37 bobmb across the screen, amazingly this isn't fatal, just press any key and try to load the file again, the second attempt works every time. this is with the cnf file set for limmited 1meg for the program. Some other things seem strange to me, Pagestream leaves it's tool box on screen until the program is quit. You can move the tool box anywhere, but can't minimize it. Datamanager has a similar problem, it leaves it's function key guide at the bottom of the screen, this wouldn't be so bad, but many of my favorite program icons are covered, unlike the Pagestream tool box this one can't be moved. you must put the program to sleep or quit. I know I may sound a bit negative, but am quite pleased with the progress so far, I have a windows machine that,s not much better at multitasking and have had a lot longer to swear, fuss, and fiddle. I suspect that with a little practice it will be easy to adjust the cnf for any problem prgs. I don't suppose anyone has uploaded a bunch of settings for the cnf that work well for lots of programs? btw my above adventures were with a 4mega ste, 105hd, virtualy clean atuo/acc, AL P ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 176 Tue Mar 22, 1994 S.FOSKETT [Lancer] at 21:29 EST >Don't even think about a separate FIleMunger and ProgramMunger! > > I'm serious. OK, it's outta my mind! GONE!!! I'm not serious! .s. (*grin*?) ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 177 Tue Mar 22, 1994 Y.DUFRESNE [Papageno] at 22:48 EST Lancer, (BTW, welcome on GEnie) NeoDesk 4 will have a new gadget called Groups. It will allow you to create special files acting somewhat like folders in ND4. You can place filepath in there and when you open the group file, it will display the files you put in. Puting all your WP software in one such group that yo culd call anyway you want up to 12 char, you just have to open the group and run the program of your choice. Isn't that better? Yanick PS.: Above info quoted from memory (mine, not the computer's). See last Gribnif Newsletter for details. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 178 Wed Mar 23, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 00:19 EST Daniel, Congrats on finding the problem! Does ExtenDOS have an RT area here? Might be another source of info for you in trying to cure the problem. I think the author frequents these parts so perhaps there is an Email address in the docs somewhere. Good luck, ========== dmj - Thanks for the input. What few programming skills I have, have gone unused for so long I had no idea of how easy or difficult it would have been to complete. I've got a much clearer picture now! Thanks again, Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 179 Wed Mar 23, 1994 S.HAMMOND [Steve H.] at 00:26 EST Got Geneva about 3 months ago and added Neodesk last month. Like a lot of others I have had some problems learning how to work with this new system. While I have had my share of headaches - I wouldn't go back. Right now I've got Aladdin "asleep" and am writing this in AW. I did find something interesting about sending faxes from PgS. If I access PgS from the Geneva file manager and print the file to STraight Fax (ver.1.07), just opened it to check :), the converted file goes through with no problem. If, OTOH, I open PgS from Neodesk, the conversion bombs right at the very end and I get the "program terminated illegally" intercept. The converted file, though, will be in my ST_FAX folder and will send with no apparent problems. There is, however, a slight difference in size between the two files - on the order of 500 or so bytes for a 50 K fax file. Pressing the "return" key a couple of times brings back the desktop under Neodesk. Other than that Geneva has worked great! I am currently running on a MSTE 4/130 HD, TOS 2.6, launching from X- Boot and ICD HD pro utilities. Just want to add my thanks to Dan and the Gribnif folks for a job well done. Steve Hammond (S.Hammond) ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 180 Wed Mar 23, 1994 D.BRYANT12 [DAN BRYANT] at 02:37 EST I am having trouble with Edhak 2.3 and Geneva while running NeoDesk. When I open a file with Edhak, the left side of the screen remains blank until I click on the upper bar. If the file exceeds the length of the screen, I get a bus error followed by a Geneva message: exited with status #-1. What am I doing wrong? Dan B ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 181 Wed Mar 23, 1994 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 06:51 EST Lancer, >Does WINCOLOR (the German CPX, not Atari's) work with Geneva? Yes. In fact, in high resolution at least (which is what I use mostly), WINCOLOR (The German CPX) provides a superior display to WCOLOR (Atari's). I'd highly recommend to other ST users that they download your BOAST (i.e., translated into English) version of WINCOLOR just as soon as you upload it to the library here. It's a valuable piece of software. ... Mike Squire P.S. I see that you elected to go ahead and get yourself a GEnie account. Welcome over from the Internet :-) ! Did you get that list of Atari Works related library files that I sent you? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 182 Wed Mar 23, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 19:50 EST AL P, PageStream's toolbox doesn't go away because it's in a window. When you switch to another application, all the windows will stay open... including PgS's toolbox. If you want to make it disappear, put PgS to sleep. I can't help you with Datamanager or WordPerfect, as I don't use either of those programs. ~dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 183 Wed Mar 23, 1994 Y.DUFRESNE [Papageno] at 21:50 EST Al P, Neodesk must be set NOT to unload for execute when in Geneva. Yanick ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 184 Wed Mar 23, 1994 G.LEONE [Gerry] at 23:12 EST I just realized something today: I *REALLY DO* like this computer system with Geneva and NeoDesk running. It's really a joy to operate. Thanks, Dan -- we appreciate the sweat and care you put into these programs. -Gerry ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 185 Thu Mar 24, 1994 G.FUHRMAN [gnox] at 03:55 EST AL P, I can identify with your adventures - also with the other Al's adventures a couple weeks ago! (not with Geneva but with another addition to his system). Glad to know that your struggle with Geneva has been successful; in my case, Geneva has definitely won the first round. ;) Sooner or later I'll get back to it when I have fewer deadlines and more tinkering time. I love the improved AES, but at the moment I need Atari Works, Diamond Back, WordPerfect, etc. to be working reliably. Sure hope the fixes for all these things prove to be as simple as running Scanlite.PRG instead of ACC ... because my poor old brain can't seem to cope with anything more complicated. No doubt the answers are hiding in the G manual somewhere, if I could only read them. gnox ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 186 Thu Mar 24, 1994 R.BUSH [Richard Bush] at 05:02 EST > The only case when programs should exit to the Geneva manager menu >rather than to NeoDesk is if you run them from something other than >NeoDesk. Versions before 003 would also sometimes do this under other >circumstances, but I don't know of any reason why 003 would do this. It's MemWatch 1.1 that does it on my Falcon. When I exit Aladdin with MemWatch loaded it exits to Geneva instead of NeoDesk. For those of you that are having problems with Geneva (or any program for that matter), the first thing you should do is disable everything you can in your auto folder and all your accessories. Then add them back a few at a time. That's the easiest way to find problems and helps out Dan and other programers by pinpointing where they should be looking for the problem. I didn't do that at first because the exit to Geneva wasn't that serious. When I got curious that's how I pinpointed it. Another thing I just noticed. When exiting Aladdin, NeoDesk DOES come up first, then MemWatch's window becomes active for a moment, then Geneva comes up. Again it doesn't do it all the time, but most of the time. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 187 Thu Mar 24, 1994 O-ZONE [Flakes] at 14:55 EST Right about this time of year my Informer II database gets full enough so that I can only run one program at a time. At the beginning of the year I sometimes got up to three going. I gotta get more memory! Anyone hear anything about upgrades for Mega STEs? ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 188 Thu Mar 24, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 18:27 EST Richard Bush - Did you run MemWatch from the Geneva selector? I'm no expert, but is it possible that because you ran it from Geneva, then ran Aladdin, and quit it, that after re-loading NeoD it switches to Geneva's 'desktop' because it 'owns' the topped window? (ie: MemWatch) Just a guess, but if this is the case, you might be able to stay at the NeoDesktop if you launch it from NeoD. Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 189 Thu Mar 24, 1994 W.ORTIZ [Will] at 19:49 EST Darlah, Dan could probably make millions with a "NeoDesk PC". I've thought long and hard about it. He's one person we the ATARI users can't afford to lose. He's one very dedicated individual. Dan, Keep up the great work!! Will ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 190 Thu Mar 24, 1994 R.SCHILLING [Rob] at 21:29 EST I've noticed another problem with Geneva perhaps someone can help. When using Diamond Edge unger Geneva, the fragmentation screen does not show the frags. It is just a solid red color and does not change as the program reads the partition. The program shows the frags on the bar chart when the read is complete, so it appears to be working fine otherwise. This problem occurs under single or multitasking modes. Any ideas will be appreciated. Thanks--Rob ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 191 Thu Mar 24, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 22:53 EST Richard, Ah, _now_ I see what's happening. When you exit an application, the next window in the "stack" becomes active. MemWatch, however, does _not_ have a menu bar to go with its window--so Geneva uses its menu instead. MemWatch is really the top application, but you don't see it because it doesn't have a menu bar, and the item checked in the first menu (as the current task) is whichever task has a _menu_ displayed. ~dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 192 Fri Mar 25, 1994 G.LEONE [Gerry] at 00:36 EST Next in a continuing series of questions: Is there some way to make the TaskManager window appear in a different spot (e.g. center of the screen) all the time? Also, I'm not sure I understand the ASCII table thing. Is there a way to access it while I'm typing a document in Word Perfect, for example, as an easy way to get the "TM" symbol? -Gerry (I just reread the manual for the 8th time today -- honest. SO MUCH to digest even yet.) ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 193 Fri Mar 25, 1994 M.POCHE [Mick] at 00:38 EST Another good idea for helping track down software/hardware conflicts might be to use Toad's SysInfo program. It creates a nice little text file which lists just about everything about what's running in your system. It's alot easier than typing all of that stuff when trying to tell a developer what's in your system. - Mick ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 194 Fri Mar 25, 1994 L.TRAPANI [Lou @Machine] at 02:24 EST Rob, Are you using the CPX for Background Colors? If not, try it. I had no problems seeing the fragmentation using Diamond Edge and Geneva on either my TT030 or my 1040STE. In fact, I kind of like how the Diamond Edge interface looks now on my TT with Geneva installed. -= Lou T. =- Written: Friday, March 25, 1994 02:08 a.m. EST ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 195 Fri Mar 25, 1994 R.SCHILLING [Rob] at 10:51 EST Matt & Keith, Re: Aladdin not being able to locate connect history. It seems to be working ok now. I don't know what I changed. If the problem recurs, I'll let you know. DMJ, Can't wait for the "fix" to view files with Geneva file selector. Then it'll be bye bye UIS. Gnox, Yes, maybe the Scanlite problem is only with TT's. Hope Dan can get this one fixed asap. It's really great to use Scanlite with ST FAX as an ACC. If Scanlite is renamed to PRG then it can't be used from within ST FAX, right? IMO, the auto merge of Scans within ST FAX is one of its coolest features. Also, re: convectt, some IMG files bomb, while others open ok. I f-mailed a sample of each to Dan for evaluation. I can't figure out the difference between the files. Thank you all for you help. Rob ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 196 Fri Mar 25, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 20:16 EST Gerry, I know of no way to make the Task Manager appear in the same spot all the time, but then, I don't use the Task Manager all that much. To use the ASCII table, just open its window. Now, when you are using another program (like a word processor) just click the character in the ASCII table you want to enter. You'll see the character "select" without the ASCII table becoming the top window. All it's doing is making the program whose window is on top (in this case, your word processor) think you actually typed the character you clicked on. I do this all the time with STeno. Rob, I didn't say Dan _was_ adding a "View" feature to the item selector. (At least I HOPE I didn't.) I just said it has been suggested more than once. And one of those suggesting it was me... ;-) ~dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 197 Fri Mar 25, 1994 R.SCHILLING [Rob] at 22:07 EST Lou, Yes, Background Colors CPX was installed but set wrong. Thanks to you, my problem has been solved. THANKS! Rob ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 198 Sat Mar 26, 1994 B.DEWITT [Perfesser] at 11:04 EST Has anyone had trouble getting Geneva and AtariWorks to function together? I seem to get printer error messages (like "Invalid Handle") when I try to print from AtariWorks while Geneva is running. Also, while I have the SetMouse program set to "run" in the configuration file, it will load all right, but not be animated. I have to open the folder and activiate the program to get the animation (of the hourglass). Any suggestions? Th' Perfesser ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 199 Sat Mar 26, 1994 R.BUSH [Richard Bush] at 14:06 EST >Did you run MemWatch from the Geneva selector? I have Geneva set to run MemWatch (then NeoDesk) when I boot up. Of course Aladdin is the only program that exits to Geneva. It's not really a big deal to me once I found out what was causing it. Aladdin has all sorts of weird reactions to other programs anyway. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 200 Sat Mar 26, 1994 G.FUHRMAN [gnox] at 21:20 EST Perfesser, > Has anyone had trouble getting Geneva and AtariWorks to function together? Yes, but not the problem you had ... mine is that every time I try to use Find in AtariWorks under Geneva, it crashes on the 2nd or 3rd repeat of the search for that string. By the way, now that I've tried running Geneva from the desktop, I'm even more baffled why anyone would want to use MultiDesk with Geneva. When run from the desktop Geneva can't access a previously loaded ACC, so MultiDesk is just taking up space uselessly; and while Geneva is running, ACCs can be run any time without MultiDesk, so why run MDD? Surely not just to use .MLT files? Obviously I'm missing something. I've also checked my Flags settings for WP and they are exactly the same as in the default GENEVA.CNF on the original disk - but WP still bombs every time I try to run it under Geneva. *sigh*. gnox ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 201 Sat Mar 26, 1994 S.FOSKETT [Lancer] at 21:36 EST >M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 06:51 EST >Yes. In fact, in high resolution at least (which is what I use mostly), >WINCOLOR (The German CPX) provides a superior display to WCOLOR (Atari's). >I'd highly recommend to other ST users that they download your BOAST (i.e., >translated into English) version of WINCOLOR just as soon as you upload it to >the library here. It's a valuable piece of software. Well, since Mike asked so nicely, Wincolor will be released as BOAST #2 tonight or tomorrow! I'll also set up a topic for discussing English translations of German software... >P.S. I see that you elected to go ahead and get yourself a GEnie account. >Welcome over from the Internet :-) ! Did you get that list of Atari Works >related library files that I sent you? Sure did, Mike! Hey, since you got me to get an account on GEnie, couldn't we do that Buddy thing? I mean, it was Mike who took the time to tell me all about GEnie and get me online here... Blame him! *grin* .s. ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 202 Sun Mar 27, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin!] at 02:34 EST Gnox, You can really fragment memory if your not careful unloading & loading ACCs with Geneva alone. MDD's MDX ACCs don't 'fragment' memory. They fit in a preset buffer. Also, MDD has code to WARN you when a DA has messed with vectors (which could crash you when you unload the ACC). I like & use both together. --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 203 Sun Mar 27, 1994 G.FUHRMAN [gnox] at 10:20 EST Kevin, Thanks for the reply - I'm still wondering though - > Also, MDD has code to WARN you when a DA has messed with vectors > (which could crash you when you unload the ACC). But so does Geneva! At least I've received a warning every time I unloaded an ACC. And if you ignore MDD's warning and unload an ACC while a program is running, you get memory fragmentation anyway, no? Same as with Geneva itself. I like both too, but don't use them together. Anyway I'm beginning to sound stubborn on this point, so I'll shut up about it. ;) gnox ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 204 Sun Mar 27, 1994 G.NELSON16 [GFN] at 10:49 EST >Atari-ST RoundTable >Category 17, Topic 19 >Message 198 Sat Mar 26, 1994 >B.DEWITT [Perfesser] at 11:04 EST > >Has anyone had trouble getting Geneva and AtariWorks to function together? I >seem to get printer error messages (like "Invalid Handle") when I try to print >from AtariWorks while Geneva is running. > >Th' Perfesser >---------- > Perfesser, Atari Works runs flawless for me from Geneva as well as all my other SpeedoGdos prg. I'm not sure what to tell you, but maybe check your drivers prg for Speedo. GFN ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 205 Sun Mar 27, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 14:49 EST gnox, Geneva's warning is NOT telling you removing the accessory will cause problems. If I understand correctly, MultiDesk Deluxe checks which vectors an accessory has changed, and if it _did_ change any, it warns you. It _knows_ whether to warn you or not. Geneva, however, uses a different approach. When an accessory runs, it has the opportunity to tell Geneva it can exit "nicely". If an accessory does this, when you terminate it, Geneva asks you if you're sure. If you confirm the removal, the accessory will terminate immediately. If the accessory didn't tell Geneva it could exit nicely, Geneva will display a _different_ confirmation dialog, indicating removing the accessory _might_ cause problems _if_ it intercepted any system vectors. Geneva has _no_idea_ if it intercepted any vectors or not. When you confirm the removal, Geneva will tell the accessory to exit... but if it didn't tell Geneva it could exit nicely, chances are it won't acknowledge the request to terminate, either. So Geneva waits about two seconds, then forcibly removes the accessory from memory. Very few accessories will tell Geneva (or MultiTOS) that they can exit nicely. It is a new feature added in MultiTOS and supported in Geneva. MemWatch uses this, but I can't think of anything else at the moment that does. ~dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 206 Sun Mar 27, 1994 CODEHEAD [Charles] at 16:17 EST Damien, In addition to what you said: MultiDesk Deluxe not only knows if an accessory has changed system vectors -- MDD can safely remove the accessory even if it has. Also, MDD will _never_ cause memory fragmentation simply by opening a resident DA, or by loading and running a nonresident DA. MultiDesk loads all accessories into static buffers that are allocated at bootup, and any memory allocated by the accessories themselves is tracked and monitored, and correctly freed when the DA is removed from MultiDesk. In fact, there is quite a lot of code in MultiDesk specifically to avoid memory fragmentation -- and in some cases MultiDesk can even "repair" fragmentation by merging free memory blocks together. Personally, I still find MultiDesk Deluxe to be a very useful and convenient way to manage DAs, even when I'm running Geneva. >> Very few accessories will tell Geneva (or MultiTOS) that they >> can exit nicely. It is a new feature added in MultiTOS and >> supported in Geneva. MemWatch uses this, but I can't think of >> anything else at the moment that does. Mouse-Ka-Mania II supports this feature too. :) - Charles @ CodeHead Tech ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 207 Sun Mar 27, 1994 G.FUHRMAN [gnox] at 17:56 EST Thanks for the clarifications re MDD. It now looks like the problems I reported running various things under Geneva can be ignored for the time being, because similar problems are happening on my system without Geneva, and it looks like I have a hardware problem that is causing the system to gradually deteriorate. I'm just checking in with this RT frequently, until Aladdin too stops working, in the hope that somebody can figure out something from the clues, which I posted in Cat 14 Top 16 - because I'm baffled when two different system info utilities report that I have 4 megs total ST-ram (which is correct) and over 7 meg _free_ ST-ram (which is bizarre). Since I'm sure Geneva didn't reach in and munge my hardware, it was just coincidence that Geneva and the gremlins arrived at the same time. If my TT survives this crisis I'll look forward to trying out Geneva again. gnox ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 208 Sun Mar 27, 1994 T.HEBEL [Spud Boy] at 19:46 EST Mike O., Thanks, I figured out my problem with Scanlit. I had it configured for the wrong handscanner...duh . ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 209 Sun Mar 27, 1994 PG.MUSIC [PG-Kevin!] at 20:49 EST I know that MDD is GOOD at that too. One of my Desk ACCs Conductor.ACC calls autofolder loaded program routines in MidiOSEX.PRG. MidiOSEX.PRG uses vectors and MDD 'caught' the ACC causing the vectors to change etc. Of course, in the MIDIOSEX / CONDUCTR case, it is SAFE. :) --Kevin ------------ Category 17, Topic 19 Message 211 Mon Mar 28, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 13:29 EST Gerry, The position of the Task Manager window can't be saved at the current time. The ASCII Table sends a character to whatever application's window is ON TOP. So, you should open the table, then re-top your doc window. Then, click on the character to send (don't worry; the ASCII window won't re-top.) Rob, I seem to recall someone saying that DIamond Edge was doing something odd with the screen colors, and that's why it would not always be visible. You need to use the BCOLORS.CPX to set them correctly. You should be able to use ScanLite as a PRG, even from within ST Fax, as long as both a multitasking. Richard & Damien, Damien is right. There may be a way around that, too. I'll look into it. Will, Thanks! Al P., Check to make sure you have NeoDesk's Unload fopr Execute option (in Set preferences) set to off (white). Also, please check my comments to gnox, below. gnox, You should have WordPerfect set for single-tasking, and also have the "AES 4.0 messages" off, and the "Maximize window areas" off. I never got a crash, though. You might want to make sure you also have the "Clear allocated memory" flag On. I seem to recall that it was not fast-loading friendly. Geneva just gives a general warning if the DA you are trying to terminate does not know about the new system message which means "hey, I'm throowning you out." In all fairness, MultiDesk does a lot of cleaning up for DA's like this that Geneva does not. Dan B., It sounds like you have mixed a Geneva 002 Task Manager with the Geneva 003 program. Check the file dates, and I think you'll see that you need to recopy the TASKMAN.ACC and TASKMAN.RSC from your master disk. As for EdHack, I can't find my disk. Urgh. Craig Harvey has Geneva, though, so maybe he can help you. I've run it from Geneva in the past without any problem. Lancer, You can get Geneva and NeoDesk 4 together for $99.95 + S&H. This is a special price. Give us a call at (413) 247-5620. Perfesser, Assuming you have Geneva 003, the only other thing I can think of that might cause problems is if you have NeoDesk's "Unload for Execute" option (in Set Preferences) on. Set it to be off (white). I have a beta version of InShape here and it works fine, otherwise. Given your problem with Atari Works, you may not have Geneva 003. If you don't, download the patch program from the libraries. Matt, The reason for None being greyed out is a technical one. In addition to what Damien said about sorting, it would be meaningless anyway, because the folders are already going to be split apart from the files, and so partially sorted. I'm considering hidden/read only. GFN, See my response in the NeoDesk topic about the Aladdin thing. The infinite key repeat is usually caused by having too many TSR's . It can be remedied by the QVFIX program someone uploaded to the libraries, though a few people have said they have problems with it. Dan ------------