************************************************************************* This conference transcript is the exclusive property of the ST Advantage on DELPHI. Permission to reprint is granted only if this notice is included and the transcript is left unchanged. To get your own DELPHI account and join in on the many activities sponsored by the ST Advantage on DELPHI, use your modem to call 1-800-695-4002. Press once or twice. At Password: type COMPUTERFEST and press . The sign-up is free. ************************************************************************* Transcript of a formal Conference with Darek Mihocka Tuesday, March 24, 1992 .Gordie> (For those of you unfamiliar with our 'formal' CO procedure, let me briefly set some guidelines. If you have a question, signal me with a ? I'll keep track of who's next and handle the traffic direction.) For those of you who don't already know, Darek is the creator of several ST pieces of software including Quick ST, XFORMER (the 8-bit emulator) and many of the neat Quick utilites. And most recently, he's been devoting his time and energy to the GEMulator...a hardware/software project that allows ST software to run on a DOS machine. That's about all I can tell you, without being inaccurate, so I'll let Darek make some opening comments. Darek? Darek> Thank you for attending tonight's CO about GEMulator. GEMulator is a combination of hardware and software that runs on almost any PC clone with a 386 or 486 processor (including 386SX and 486SX). The hardware consists of a board that plugs inside the PC. It is similar to something like the Spectre 128, and has sockets for several sets of TOS chips. Like Spectre and Xformer, GEMulator does its emulation in software, and emulates the ST's video, mouse, keyboard, and disk drives, in effect, turning the PC into an ST clone. A fully working 1040ST emulator will be demoed next week at the Atari show in Toronto. Drop by for a look! And with that intro, I'll open the floor for questions. ga .Hudson> Well, you pretty much answered it....but how much will it cost? .Darek> The final price of GEMulator has not been set yet, but you will probably be able to purchase it at a dealer for $400-$500 for a complete system. That's about what you pay for a Mac or PC emulator. Keep in mind that GEMulator consists of 3 components: the software, the card, and the TOS ROMs. I will be supplying the software and the card, and possibly the ROMs. Otherwise you can purchase a set of TOS 1.4 or TOS 2.0 ROMs from most dealers. It's the card and ROMs that make up most of the cost of GEMulator. Obviously, if you'd like to switch between TOS 1.0, 1.4, and 2.0, you'll need to buy 3 sets of ROMs. In my last newsletter I mentioned an introductory price, so you can expect that my introductory price will be significantly lower than $400 or $500. ga JBEAU> What are the basic "memory" configurations available in ST mode and how much RAM can it be upgraded to in the future? .Darek> The setup that I have been testing software on is a 1 megabyte ST with TOS 1.4. That of course is arbitrary. GEMulator could emulate up to 14 megabytes of ST RAM, since the 4 megabyte limit imposed on STs is due to the MMU chip. However, I really doubt you'd need 14 meg. I think that at most you'd need 2 meg of ST RAM. GEMulator uses the PC's extended memory as ST RAM, so to emulate a 1 meg ST, you will need a 2 m eg PC (640K/1 meg of conventional memory, and 1 meg of extended memory). Most 386 PCs today are shipped with at least 2 meg of RAM, so that isn't a problem. ga JBEAU> When you say "could emulate" does that mean it "will in the future" or "does now but I haven't run it that way?" .Darek> What I meant was I run it as a 1 meg machine. It can be configured to any arbitrary number from 1 to 14 meg. ga .Dana> Darek, many people view your "departure" from the Atari market as a form of desertion. Now that the GEMulator is almost a reality, how do you feel Atari users will view this new concept? And good luck at TAF!! .Darek> Dana, if by my departure you mean selling off Quick ST to Codehead, I did that for several reasons. First, my original goal of Quick ST, to drive Turbo ST out of the market with a better product, was accomplished. and it had all the bells and whistles that I could think of to put into a software accelerator, since the speed was pretty well at a maximum. So I had little motivation to do anything else to it. When I spoke with Charles, he indicated that they'd love to keep working on the product and inject some of their own creativity into. I've seen beta versions of what Charles and John have been up to and I like it. I'm very happy that Codehead now has Quick ST. Secondly, since I first announced my intention to write GEMulator last year, an increasing number of people indicated to me that they'd be interested in such a product. So in order to develop GEMulator, I again had to let go of Quick ST. I have not abandoned ST users at all. GEMulator was developed to satisfy the many ST users who want to switch to the PC platform while still keeping many of the excellent software titles they've invested in. .Dana> Actually, I meant people viewed your going to Microsoft as leaving the Atari market. I don't "buy" that, but just echoing others' views . .Darek> Oh that. Well, I have worked at Microsoft since before I ever wrote ST Xformer or Quick ST, so I can hardly see that as having departed. I've been at Microsoft for over 5 years now, on and off. ga .Ken H.> What software have you tested on it and what resolutions does it support? ga .Darek> Ken, at this time I've test about 40 commercial, shareware, and p/d titles. All but two ran flawlessly, and I'm fixing the bugs in those two. Over the next few months, and especially next week in Toronto, I'm going to have a lot of people test it and I'll compile a compatibility list. My goal is to offer 100% ST compatibility, whatever that means, since no model of ST or STE or TT is fully 100% compatible with the other models. To answer your questions about what actually runs, here is a partial list: Word processors: First Word Plus, Word Writer, ST Writer, MS Write, Word Flair. Paint programs: Prism Paint, Degas, Degas Elite, Art ST, Megablit Other programs: Neodesk 3, Quick ST 3, Turbo ST 1.8, Hotwire, Multidesk, Dcopy, Little Green Selector, GDOS, G+PLUS, Gemini. And of course, Pagestream 2.1! (Calamus has yet to be tested). .Ken H.> Can you get low/medium/hi rez on a VGA? And how about MIDI? ga .Darek> Low/medium/monochrome is supported. In the future I will add Moniterm-like support for Super VGA cards, so that you can run your ST in 800x600 or 1024x768 mode. MIDI is currently not supported, but I may add that in for people that have Sound Blaster Pro cards. ga .Gordie> Darek, you mentioned a week ago that GEMulator will read ST formatted disks in a standard pc drive. I assume that doesn't mean, however, that copy-protected games, like Dungeon Master, will run properly. Or have you truly amazed us? ga .Darek> I haven't tested any copy protected games yet. I wouldn't hold my breath though. I just don't know right now. For as long as your disk has no copy protection, it can be read and written, even the twisted 400K and 800K formats. As a bonus, you can also us high density 1.44 meg floppy disks. ga .Gordie> Even twisted and skewed disks? Nice! .Bryan> My dad has a 286 computer. But his has a math co-processor in it. Will GEMulator run on his machine or does it HAVE to be a 386 or 486? .Darek> Three reasons - price, speed, and complexity. Sure, you could write a 68000 emulator for an 8088 or 286 based machine, but it would be slower and actually harder to write than an emulator running on a 386. So you will require a 386 or 486. And if you compare prices, 286 machines are hardly cheaper than 386 machines. Since most people interested in GEMulator have not yet purchased a PC, it really didn't make sense to go through the extra hassle of supporting the 286. Sorry. ga .Bryan> Also, on term programs, would you get TRUE ANSI graphics? .Darek> You mean like Flash running in ANSI mode. You will get whatever you normally get on an ST. The IBM's character set has nothing to do with it. .Dana> As a follow-up to the CodeHeads and QST, did that include all of the "accessory" programs like QuickView, etc.? .Darek> No, just the Quick ST program. Trust me, after you see what they've done you wouldn't want them anyway. ga .AP7> Does the gemulator support GFA basic and STOS? ** TOS 2.06 emulation? ** What's the limit on DTE/DCE communication? ga .Darek> I have not tested GFA BASIC or STOS yet. I'm sure someone will at the Toronto show. TOS 2.06? The GEMulator card support both 6-chip and 2-chip TOS sets, so you can plug in any version of TOS. I have tested several sets and all booted up fine. As for serial communications, that depends highly on the speed of your CPU. Again, I have not tested to see what the max is. I will sometime soon. ga .Ken H.> Are separate "TOS Partitions" needed on a HD or can MS DOS and TOS share the HD with no problems? Could ST programs access other SCSI devices, like a CD ROM? ga Darek> That's a tough one. I'm working on hard disk emulation and there may be problems with large hard disk partitions. I'm not sure yet what the limits of GEM are. But to answer the first question, no, you do not need any separate partitions. ST and PC disk formats are identical, so you can share your ST and PC files on the same disks. ga PENDZICH> Sorry was late this may be already answered. Since you are a supporter of windows can you jump into ST mode from it and exit back? Also, you once mentioned a 8 bit emulator for the IBM what happened to that? ga. .Darek> First question: yes, since GEMulator runs under DOS, you can run Windows and open a full screen DOS session and switch between GEMulator and your other Windows programs at any time. I do that all the time. I have also run 2 GEMulator at once and had two different ST programms running. No problem. Second question: PC Xformer is not something I plan to do anything with. I did show it at some shows last year, including the Chicago show, but most people laughed at it an thought it was some sort of joke. Obviously there isn't a large enough market to support a hardware/software solution similar to GEMulator, and I can't release it as public domain because Atari has not given me permission to use the 8-bit operating system on the PC. So I don't think anything will ever become of it. ga PENDZICH> Is the GEMulator a not interrupt card, direct DMA so no conflicts? Darek> I think I understand your question. No, it should not conflict with any other cards since it is not interrupt driven. ga .Paul> Will GEMulator be able to run at speeds greater that of an 8Mhz ST? Darek> Right now you need a 486 machine to run the software at full speed. That will be sped up. When I was developing GEMulator my goal was to first achieve 100% compatibility and then worry about speed. When I was writing Quick ST, I made the mistake of worrying about speed ahead of compatibility. I can at least double the speed from the current speed, which means most ST software will run at full speed on a 386/33, and on a 486/33 you will get speeds similar a 16MHz ST (or Mega STE). ga .AP7> Perhaps I should hold off on buying a Mega STe, then? Your candid advise would be appreciated! I have a couple of weeks till the cash is in hand!! Perhaps I should opt for a 386DX 25MHZ? 33MHZ? 40MHZ? Full Mega STe speed? ga .Darek> I better not answer that. I raised enough of a mess last time I did. I am not advising you to buy an ST or a PC. All I am making available is an ST emulator for those users who either through choice or force (e.g. school or work) use a PC. I personally don't like any of the PC emulators available for the ST because they all emulate crippled PCs. So by reversing that process, i.e. emulating the ST on a PC, you can still run both ST and PC software, but with better results. ga .Ken H.> CD ROM support? Could you access clip art on a CD ROM from PageStream running under the GEMulator? ga .Darek> Two things would have to be true. First, GEMulator would have to support CD ROM drives. That remains to be seen. If it does, then the clip art file format would have to be one that Pagestream recognizes. So, I'll work on the CD ROM problem, but the file format problem is up to you. :-) .Gordie> Darek, have you tried MaxiFile on the GEMulator? .Darek> Yes, I tried out the whole Codehead Utilities disk, including Maxifile and Font Tricks with no problems. ga .Gordie> I was just imagining having that to manipulate a pc hard drive... .Darek> Remember, I haven't listed all the programs that run, just the "important" ones. :-) .AP7> Graphics, all three on one multisync platform? ga .Darek> If you mean all three modes on one monitor, sure, that was no problem. Remember, VGA graphics are 16 colors at a resolution of 640x480. All 3 ST modes are subsets of that. ga .Paul> When do you expect GEMulator to be available for purchase? And how can I get on your mailing list? ga .Darek> Paul, I would have liked to have GEMulator available at the Toronto show, but I have some good reasons for waiting a few months. The program needs to be tested, I need to speed it up a bit, and most importantly, I need to prove to you people that it really works. From some of the messages I've read on some online services, it sounds like most people can't believe that the ST can be emulated on a PC. They want to see it and try it first. That's exactly why I'm going to Toronto. If you are coming to the show drop by my booth and check it out. It is my hope that GEMulator will get some writeups and reviews after the Toronto show, and _then_ I can think about trying to sell it. To get on the mailing list to receive more info on GEMulator and to be able to preorder at the intro price, you can either send a self addressed envelope to Branch Always Software, 14150 N.E. 20th Street, Suite 302, Bellevue, WA 98007 or drop by the Toronto show and fill out a form. I see no reason why GEMulator won't be available before the Glendale show, which is the next show I'll be showing it at. But, and this is a big BUT, I will be looking at people's reactions at the Toronto show. If people tell me "GEMulator is nice, but I'm not interested in paying X amount of dollars to run my ST software on a PC", then I'll have to think of ways to make it cheaper or more attractive. Before I can sell GEMulator, I have to have an electronics company make hundreds or thousands of the cards. That costs a lot of money, so before I invest my life savings into it, I want to know that enough people will buy it. So, PLEASE, come to Toronto, look at GEMulator, and tell me you're interested in it. .Gordie> I think that's an important point. If you can't be reasonably assured that you'll sell enough to cover your costs. I think there's a market, but I am not sure many will be willing to pay more than an STe goes for. ga .Paul> Thanks for the detailed info. .AP7> Could the Lexicor color board be interfaced somehow? Spectre? This is sounding too good to be true!!! Perhaps the ST will die as a machine, and live on as GEMulator software! A platform that exists only in another platform's memory!!! ga .Darek> I want to respond to Gordie's statement... An STE sells for what, $399? Ok, if I give you $399, can you set up a complete STe system that would be usable? No, of course not. You have to buy a monitor. You probably want a hard disk. Now what have you spent, $1000? So, if you have a PC and would like to buy another STe system, it is going to be a LOT cheaper to simply emulate the ST. Now, to answer the other questions... There are hundreds of different VGA cards available for the ST. A basic VGA card runs you about $50, a Super VGA around $100, and some of the high rez high performance cards are a few hundred dollars. It would be a lot cheaper to get one of these cheap, mass produced VGA cards instead of trying to interface an ST video card. Some of the "ST" video cards are in fact VGA cards interfaced to the ST! As for Spectre, well, I haven't had a chance to sit down with Dave Small and discuss if he'd like to do something with Spectre and GEMulator. The GEMulator card does have the extra sockets to allow Mac ROMs to be plugged in. So all I will say at the moment is if you have a Spectre 128 or Magic Sac, HOLD ON TO THE ROMS!!!! .AP7> But, could the Lexicor software be used with some other board? Extra sockets, great!!! ga .Darek> Let's put it this way, any software that support the Moniterm monitor or the ISAC card, or other high rez ST monitors will run on a Super VGA. .AP7> So, if I get a 486 40Mhz, I am set for life!!! WOWWWW!!!! ga .Gordie> Well, until the RISC computers come to market, anyway.. .Ken H.> Why software emulation of a 68000 when the chips are so cheap and you have to have the PC board any way? Any chance of 68030 support? ga .Darek> Cost mainly. Last year a company released a Mac emulator on a card that sold for $1000. As far as I know it never became popular because it was more expensive that a low end Mac! Another reason for emulating in software is because if you put an 8 Mhz 68000 on a card, that is the maximum speed you can get. In software, you are limited only by the speed of your computer and the efficiency of the emulator. Once I get GEMulator fully optimized, you will see some software running a lot faster than on an ST. A third reason for software emulation is of interest to developers. GEMulator has several nifty debugging features that on a real 68000 would require an expensive in circuit emulator other hardware. You can do ANYTHING in software just by writing some code. Hardware is a lot harder to deal with. I'm just not a hardware kind of guy. ga Oops, forgot to mention 68030 support...yes, eventually that could be put in to emulate a TT or Mac II. I would guess that to get the full speed of the TT you'd need a very fast 486 or the new 586. Keep in mind that as PCs get faster and faster GEMulator will automatically run faster as well without having to be updated. That's a lot simpler than having to replace 68000s with 68030s, etc. ga .Gordie> If nobody else has a question, I'll let AP7 wrap it up for tonight. .AP7> You mean there is actually no 68000 chip at all, it is 100% software, besides whatever your board uses?? .Darek> I believe that's what I've been trying to convey for months. yes. ga .AP7> Great!!! ga .Gordie> Well, Darek, you've given us a huge amount of information. Any last comments? .Darek> Well, I want to thank everyone for coming. If you can, please drop by and say hi in Toronto. If you'd like to be put on my mailing list and place an advance order, please send your name and address in a SASE to the address I mentioned before. You won't need to send any money until I'm ready to actually ship, but this will give me a better idea of when the market is big enough to make this worth while. I don't want this to turn into a disaster like PC Ditto II. That's all! .Gordie> None of us do, Darek. .Darek> (luckily, the GEMulator card is a LOT simpler than a PC Ditto board) .Gordie> Thanks for sharing the GEMulator with us tonight. And I hope the Toronto show goes fantastically for you! This CO is over! ********************************************************************** This transcript was edited by JBEAU. His effort is much appreciated by the staff of DELPHI's ST Advantage, especially Gordie, who would have had to edit it otherwise. Thanks! **********************************************************************