========================================================================= (C) 1993 by Atari Corporation, GEnie, and the Atari Roundtables. May be reprinted only with this notice intact. The Atari Roundtables on GEnie are *official* information services of Atari Corporation. To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem) 800-638-8369. Upon connection type HHH (RETURN after that). Wait for the U#= prompt.Type XTX99437,GENIE and press [RETURN]. The system will prompt you for your information. ========================================================================== ************ Topic 41 Tue Dec 22, 1992 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 20:08 EST Sub: FALCON 030 - Help and Questions Ask here if you need help or have a technical question to ask about the FALCON 030 computer. This topic is designed to inform users about the FALCON and discuss it CURRENT details and characteristics. 210 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 1 Tue Jun 01, 1993 B.REHBOCK [BILL@ATARI] at 00:05 EDT Steffan, the Falcon's video output is as good as many $2000 JVC and Sony video titlers/sketch pads that I've seen. Cogswell College is doing some production work right now with a pair of Falcons at this time; I'll touch base with James Grunke and see if he can give us a report on how they're doing in a professional environment. -Bill ============= Falcon030 Bundled Software Bulletin =============== Falcon030's with Hard Drives are currently shipping with the following software: o MultiTOS o SpeedoGDOS o Landmines o Breakout o Calappt (Personal Time Manager, Telephone Book/Dialer) o ProCalc o Talking Clock They are supposed to have (many didn't because everyone was eager to get machines shipped to dealers quickly) a mail-in card that you mail to Atari to receive: o Atari Works (Personal Integrated Productivity Package) o System Audio Manager (Accompany System Keyclicks and Events with Digitized Sounds.) o Audio Fun Machine (8-band graphic equalizer and special effects processor.) o FalconD2D (Direct-to-Disk recording system with special effects and editing.) IMPORTANT: We know exactly which dealers received machines without the mail-in cards and they are being sent their cards this week. Users that purchased machines and did not receive these cards can contact the dealer in about one week to get their card. All you have to do is fill out the card (make sure you include your dealer's name and machine's serial number); keep the verification half, and mail the other half to Atari. Machines without Hard Drives will not be shipped with SpeedoGDOS, Atari Works, or FalconD2D. They will have everything else (including the hard disk utilities in case you have your own SCSI Hard Disk). The Atari Hard Disk upgrade kits will ship with Atari Works, SpeedoGDOS, FalconD2D, as well as MultiTOS, etc. on the Hard Disk. -Bill Rehbock, Atari Corp. ======================================================================= ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 2 Mon Aug 02, 1993 ERIC.SMITH [Eric Smith] at 18:10 EDT All: The NVRAM CPX certainly can do real damage to your machine, i.e. it can make it virtually unbootable if the wrong settings are placed into the NVRAM. We've actually had quite a few reports of users who have shot themselves in the foot this way. All of NVRAM is undocumented and reserved for use by Atari. If you mess with it, you do so at your own risk. I would strongly advise you to get rid of NVRAM.CPX. (If you have messed up your NVRAM, and you have TOS 4.04, you can reset the NVRAM to the U.S. default by holding down CTRL-ALT-UNDO while booting (i.e. press CTRL-ALT-UNDO when you see the Atari logo on the screen)). ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 3 Mon Aug 02, 1993 J.KRACHT [James Kracht] at 21:18 EDT ERIC SMITH: So, then am I to understand that NVRAM.CPX is only dangerous if you have a TOS under 4.04? What is the _real_ danger of messing with the NVRAM if you have 4.04? The CPX seems rather well-behaved, and safety conscious. It doesn't let you throw a VGA monitor into overscan (which seems like the only danger I could decipher from German). Everything else just seems to deal with resolutions and languages. Not sure how these could be dangerous. What's the scoop? ("Mandrake, have you ever heard of flouridation?" :-) -=James ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 4 Mon Aug 02, 1993 D.COOKE [Rob] at 21:32 EDT I still don't know much about the Falcon but how can one make the machine boot from floppy rather than harddrive? -Rob ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 5 Mon Aug 02, 1993 T.HEBEL [Spud Boy] at 21:39 EDT I tried to use ICD pro utilities on the Falcon and they will not work. When I run the format progam it locks up when it goes to scan the drives. Also it will not allow me to install an ICDBOOT.SYS. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 6 Mon Aug 02, 1993 R.RIMKEVICUS [Rick] at 21:57 EDT The Falcon 030 was demoed at the monthly Atari Elite meeting here in Pittsburgh. Neat-o machine But, I want something bigger & faster, that is a Falcon 040 thats better or equal to a 486DX2, 66mhz machine. Also, will it run Jaguar software or not???? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 7 Mon Aug 02, 1993 O-ZONE [Flakes] at 22:14 EDT When the Falcon boots up it runs all the auto programs in low res. Since I'm using Xboot which doesn't show the whole screen in this mode, I can't see to change the settings. How can I get it to boot from the beginning in high res? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 8 Mon Aug 02, 1993 O-ZONE [Flakes] at 23:12 EDT Finally got the bird, Q: In my general setup CPX I see an empty box where it should display "chip select" as in blitter and cache. What gives? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 9 Mon Aug 02, 1993 B.DEWITT [NerdPerfect] at 23:38 EDT Here's a semi-dumb question: if the Falcon is capable of displaying a gazillion (or at least 32,000) colors on-screen at once, why does a 24-bit Targa file get converted to only 256 colors when viewed by GEMView? Shouldn't there be a lot more colors than that in such a file? The question arose while viewing a POV 24-bit rendering I did of a sphere on a green tabletop. There was an obvious dot pattern simulating the transition of colors from light green to dark as the tabletop receeded from the light. Now, it seems to me that with all the colors that should be present in a 24-bit rendering, and with the Falcon capable of displaying more than 256 colors, that the transition from light green to dark green should have been very smooth. (In fact, GEMView reported that only 42 unique colors had been used.) Am I missing something here? Obviously, I don't understand how rendering and displaying works. I had naively hoped that rendering an object in a program like POV (or Phoenix from Lexicor) and displaying it on the Falcon would give me a near-photographic image. Why doesn't it? Huh? Huh? Bob deWitt ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 10 Tue Aug 03, 1993 J.KRACHT [James Kracht] at 00:02 EDT Bob DeWitt: First Bob, what kind of monitor were you using? VGA monitors can't display truecolor images in 640x480. Switch to 320x200 to use truecolor on a VGA. Second, if you're using a TV/SC type monitor, you must remember to _switch_ to truecolor mode from the Set Video selection before you run GEM-View. This works in 640x480 as well as 320x200. Don't worry. Your POV file is a 24-bit file. You just didn't get the Falcon setup right to view it. Remember: VGA truecolor = 320x200; SC/TV truecolor = 320x200 & 640x400. Got it? You might want to install the 'V' key of your keyboard to the Set Video option in the Desktop. Makes things a lot quicker. Flakes: The Falcon blitter chip is _always_ on. You can't disable it from the Control Panel (as far as I know). I believe the same goes for the cache. As to you boot-up res woes, you might carefully use the NVRAM CPX available online here. You can change the bootup res to 640x480. Works very nice. I cringe now whenever I have to use the low-res bootup mode for games... Spud Boy: Well, give some more detail.900000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 999999999999999999999999999999999999999 (ooops -- cat got on the keyboard) What kind of hard drive were you trying to use ICD Pro on? External? I was trying to use it on an external and it did the same thing. The problem was a bent pin the SCSI2 cable. It took a VERY bright light to reveal that, too. -=James ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 11 Tue Aug 03, 1993 R.HOEKSTRA1 [RandyH] at 00:31 EDT J.Widi, I believe I do have SAM_SET.CPX in the CPX folder and though it does not show up in the control panel, I do think it shows up in the list where you can activate or deactivate CPXs. I'll check again to be sure. Any other ideas? RandyH ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 12 Tue Aug 03, 1993 MUSE [Tomas] at 00:56 EDT There is a new Falcon compatible version of the ICD Pro software and I believe it allows you to set the bootup resolution. ===Tomas=== ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 13 Tue Aug 03, 1993 B.SUSLOVIC [Brad] at 00:57 EDT I got ICD PRO 6.1.4 about a month ago, and just got an update to \6.2.0, and it works great. Spudboy, call Howard at ICD to see if you have a compatible version, he'll do you right. Does anyone know if any of the avaliable memory upgrad kits use your exisisting ram? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 14 Tue Aug 03, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 04:13 EDT Rob, To boot from a Floppy just hold the ALT key down when you boot up. It's little tricky on the TT but it seems to work fairly well on the Falcon. James, GEMview displays pictures in a window and converts them to whatever resolution your in so the actual size of your screen doesn't matter only the bit planes. then it converts the Image to that resolution. Bob D, First make sure your in a True Color mode. It sound like you where in a paletted mode because I don't think GV tells you how many colors are in an image when it's in True Color. Second you may have inadvertently set GEmview to dither the image to 256 colors. Watch and see if it says now dithering image to 256 colors or something close. Often it will say 42 (or whatever) unique colors which means one of two things. After transfering the image you only had 42 colors actually used in it or you only had 42 colors in it perios. Just because you have a 24bit image doesn't mean it has all 16million colors in it.:-) You can also have a solid black 24bit image. First thing you should do is find something you know has more then 256 colors. Then make sure you set your Falcons Video Options to the True Color mode. GEMview works in whatever resolution you happen to be in so if your in 256 colors it'll transfer the image over. Phoenix will create some very nice files by the way. Also... If you just have a ball thats 1 color it might not need more then 20 or 30 colors to shade it. I suggest using a couple different color marble textures and maybe some wood. Try to stress it out.:-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 15 Tue Aug 03, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 05:59 EDT Flakes: To see the whole screen when booting you have to change the default bootup resolution in the NVRAM of your machine. (If you dare). __________________ \hunderbird 'cause if you can install a HD, you can probably safely modify the NVRAM. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 16 Tue Aug 03, 1993 ICDINC at 08:31 EDT Spud Boy, YOu must have an older version of ICD SCSI Pro. The ICD RT is m1220;1 but I will be glad to help where ever I see problems. We update the software quite often to fix reported problems and incompatibilities. RIght now it works great with the Falcon. - TOM - ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 17 Tue Aug 03, 1993 TOWNS [John] at 12:28 EDT I think the main reason that it is dangerous to mess with NVRAM on machines with TOS earlier than 4.04 is because that is the version that they added the ability to reset the NVRAM at boot time. Before that, if mess with NVRAM and your machine doesn't boot, you are in big trouble. Do yourself a favor.. if you don't know what you are doing with NVRAM, then leave it alone. Otherwise, if you mess with it and your computer doesn't boot, you have no one else to blame but yourself!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 18 Tue Aug 03, 1993 D.MCNAMEE [Dan @ Atari] at 16:03 EST James, The NVRAM CPX is dangerous, period. Do not use it. It is dangerous because, as Eric said, NVRAM is reserved for use by Atari only, is undocumented and anything in it can change at any time. Dan Rob, You boot from floppy by holding down the ALT key at boot up. I generally wait for the memory test to come up and then hit a space and then hold ALT immediately. Dan Flakes, You can't turn on and off the blitter or cache in the Falcon, so those areas of the CPX are disabled. Dan NerdPerfect, Ask the author of GEMView. ;-) Dan ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 19 Tue Aug 03, 1993 P-DIRECT [Sean@TWP] at 20:15 EDT Anyone think Atari just doesn't want anyone to have a nice looking boot up screen? There may be dangers to using the program, but telling us not to use it period.. Next thing they'll be saying that we shouldn't use resolution extenders! Provide all this great nifty hardware, and then tell us we can't use it? Sheesh! Sean Dougherty Two Worlds Publishing ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 20 Tue Aug 03, 1993 O-ZONE [Flakes] at 22:19 EDT James K., I quote from the Falcon 030 manual, Page 4-35, Paragraph 2 with the heading: "Chip Select. The chip select feature allows you to choose among the Blitter and/or Cache options. Click on the status box below Chip Select. The Current selection is indicated in the pop-up by a check mark. To change the current selection, move the pointer until the desired selection highlights, and click on that selection. Tha setting becomes the current selection and the pop-up closes. The new setting is displayed inside the shadowed status box." A typo perhaps? ********************************************************************** Randy H., I have the same problem with the SAM_SET.CPX. *********************************************************************** Thunderbird, You mean... open up the machine? Where would I get more info on this subject? ********************************************************************* John, This is a new machine; serial #905. I have TOS 4.04. Does this mean there is another solution? The aforementioned ICD suggestion? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 21 Tue Aug 03, 1993 D.COOKE [Rob] at 23:41 EDT Thanks to all who replied to me on my question concerning the boot up from a floppy,now I have another question.How can one delete a file icon that is sitting in the middle of my Desktop screen? I can remove it but when I switch rez it appears back in the middle again and when I try to delete it the Falcon says something about the file not being found! Any help or hints on this most annoying problem would be greatly appreciated. -Rob ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 22 Wed Aug 04, 1993 D.COOKE [Rob] at 00:00 EDT Nevermine my previous post guys,I fixed it.I didn't think about removing the file then saving the Desktop. -Rob ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 23 Wed Aug 04, 1993 W.DEAN4 [D'noski] at 00:49 EDT Is there anyone out here using a Large monitor with the Falcon.....like a 19 or 21 in...D'noski ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 24 Wed Aug 04, 1993 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 01:25 EDT NerdPerfect.... Also, keep in mind that although 32,000 colors is a lot, 256000 is a lot more. If you use the 256 color modes, there are 64 shades of each color to mix. If you have a picture that has smooth color graduations, it may actually look BETTER in the 256 color modes than the True Color modes! This is especially true of monochome (greyscale) pictures. ----------> Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 25 Wed Aug 04, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 05:56 EDT What I don't understand is how the function of the NVRAM in a Falcon030 is going to change from one day to the next. With the understanding in mind that the NVRAM may function differently if I upgrade the TOS or something, I see no harm in being able to boot in a high- rez color mode. Sure, NVRAM.ACC won't work right on this future TOS that uses the NVRAM differently, so I get an NVRAM.ACC for _that_ TOS version. Saying not to do something which improves the computer because of some future change which may make it not work anymore doesn't seem right to me. Did anyone tell "Trio Engineering" that they couldn't change color registers in sync with the electron gun in SPECTRUM 512 because future CPU's might have caches or faster clocks??? Allow me to exaggerate a bit... what if everyone stopped buying ST/TT/F030 software because Atari _might_ make a PowerPC machine someday? See what I am getting at? If it works on _your_ machine and it has a benefit for _you_, and you understand that it may not work on a newer TOS or machine, why would you not do it. I can see why it would be a bad thing to do on TOS4.02 and lower, but with the ability of TOS4.04 to rectify any scrambled NVRAMS, it's no more harmful than rearranging your SCSI ID jumpers on your HD's. ________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 26 Wed Aug 04, 1993 ATARI.BENLUX [W. Kilwinger] at 08:39 EDT Bob deWitt: The way you descripe it I guess you might have a hardware problem or a not correct working cable. What type (brandname and model) of floptical do you have ? Maybe you can connect another external SCSI device to see if your hardware and cable is fine ? R.LUNSFORD2, > >I called Atari today, and asked about the NVRAM stuff, and the guy I talked >to, asked what it did. I told him that it puts the screen in VGA 80 column >mode for bootup, and he said, "Why would you want to do that?". He said [C >[C [D [D the NVRAM is undocumented and that it can do bad things to your >computer. I think he meant the language changes...? I still want it to work >:)... Russ >---------- Yes, NVRAM can do nasty things, it can put your Falcon030 in a non existing video mode with a result that your system crashes in a very early stage in the boot process. Result: it will never start-up. Atari will not document NVRAM since Atari reserves the right to change the meaning of the bits in NVRAM. Regards, Wilfred ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 27 Wed Aug 04, 1993 D.MCNAMEE [Dan @ Atari] at 15:44 EST Thunderbird, Yes, it is because a future upgrade of TOS may be incompatable with the settings you made. Now, what if the changes you made to NVRAM that we told you not to make in combination with the new TOS gave you a computer that you could not boot? Yes, we did tell Trio not to do what they did. They went ahead and did it anyway, and a LOT of people complained about us breaking Spectrum. Dan ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 28 Wed Aug 04, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 22:49 EDT Can someone give me a simple translation/explanation of the different buttons in NVRAM.CPX? I guess I understand the kompatibilitie button but what's that other one near it with the long german name? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 29 Wed Aug 04, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:09 EDT Dan: I agree that programmers should avoid writing to the hardware if it is possible to do so. Just look at how many communications programs break on the F030 because you don't use the 68901 serial port for the RS-232 port... even ST Aladdin breaks. I think you'll even admit that Spectrum512 was an incredible piece of work in it's day, and I know for a fact it sold a few 1040's. By the way, does the serial port on the 68901 in the F030 actually get used by something, or have you eliminated the 68901 altogether and use your own ASIC to 'emulate' the exception/interrupt system that the ST uses it for? _______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 30 Thu Aug 05, 1993 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 02:22 EDT Might I suggest that Atari upload a program that resets NVRAM to factory defaults? I have TOS 4.02 in my Falcon. I use NVRAM CPX without difficulty and boot in a nice healthy 640x480x16. Is there some reason -not- to boot in this res? Besides, Atari claimed that we would be able to change the HD spin up delay on the Falcon, but if messing with NVRAM is a no no, how are we to do that? The spin-up delay is completely unecessary anyway... the memory test is plenty long! What ELSE can 4.04 do that 4.02 can't? ----------> Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 31 Thu Aug 05, 1993 STEVE-J [Steve @ NLS] at 05:39 EDT I have to agree that it IS a bit annoying to see Atari (again) warning people not to use software hacks to improve their computers if Atari isn't going to offer a similar, properly written utility themselves. If Atari doesn't want people using the current NVRAM CPX module, a better answer is to RELEASE THEIR OWN OFFICIAL ONE rather than just recommend not using another one. I seem to even remember Atari TOUTING the Falcon030's 'configurable' NVRAM before the machine was released. They neglected to mention that they thought only Atari should be configuring it! ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 32 Thu Aug 05, 1993 B.STOREY [Billy B.] at 07:46 EDT Dan, don't tell me they put that damn memory test in the falcon too! That is the biggest pain in the A** on the STe. If they wanted to have it in there, they should have made it so you press a key on boot-up to test. The delay is ok for those who turn off the HD, but for those of us who leave the HD on forever, it does nothing. There is a thriving business selling utilities to overcome those 2 functions. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 33 Thu Aug 05, 1993 TOWNS [John] at 11:17 EDT No Steve.. you are wrong. Atari doesn't have to provide you with such a CPX, because the NVRAM is considered to be undocumented by Atari and is not available for applications to use. a CPX would be an application that uses the NVRAM. That is against the rules. Atari could provide a CPX to allow you to safely change the NVRAM settings but they don't HAVE to do anything. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 34 Thu Aug 05, 1993 D.MCNAMEE [Dan @ Atari] at 13:51 EST Thunderbird, I never said Spectrum was not a good program. It is very good for what it did. It also broke rules, and therefore broke when hardware changed, and people blame Atari for it. The serial port uses a SCC chip now, just like the extra TT ports. Dan Steve-J, We are not just saying "don't use this NVRAM CPX", we are saying "don't mess with (change) your NVRAM settings. You can do things that are VERY BAD." Can you see the difference here? Where was the NVRAM "touted" as being a feature that allows you to configure your machine? I never saw (or said) that. Dan Billy, The test is there, the test is part of the boot delay also. If you are delaying anyway, why not do something useful, like check the memory. If you don't want to wait, all you have to do is hit a key. Dan ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 35 Thu Aug 05, 1993 O-ZONE [Flakes] at 18:40 EDT So if I'm a good boy and don't use the "dangerous" CPX, How can I get my Falcon to boot up in high res? Perhaps the good folks at Atari could modify the exsisting CPX or write a new one that would do the job? If I did decide to take my chances with the existing CPX and I broke the sucker, how could I get it repaired? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 36 Thu Aug 05, 1993 P-DIRECT [Sean@TWP] at 19:27 EDT Okay: Let's recap! According to Atari, changing the settings of NVRAM could potentially cause problems with the computer booting, if you were to upgrade TOS. Also, this area is also undocumented and shouldn't be touched by any program other than something written by Atari (note: wouldn't a program written by Atari cause just as many problems?). Modification of your booting resolution is therefore dangerous, and shouldn't be done (at least in Atari's point of view). My question: Then why in world is it there?!?!?! What is the point of having a register that can change, but you aren't supposed to change it? Atari has been touting all of this "flexibility" NVRAM offers, and now they tell us we shouldn't use it? Next to come: WARNING: Do not use programs designed for this computer! They may not work on future models in years to come. I don't know -- the whole deal sounds a little absurd to me... Has political correctness finally spread to the Atari? (well, at least the computerized version of it) Sean Dougherty Two Worlds Publishing ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 37 Thu Aug 05, 1993 C.OINES1 [Chazz] at 20:09 EDT Personally, I'm curious as to why it's so bleeding _important_ to some of you that the system boots up immediately in hi-res... that seems pretty irrelevant to me. Then again, I have no problem with tapping the space bar to bypass the spinup timer/memory test either. Heaven Forbid someone have to perform even one more keystroke than is absolutely necessary. Oh, the incredible burden... (suffering strong Falcon withdrawal while waiting on a hard drive replacement) (Gotta _love_ that long-distance in-warranty service) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 38 Thu Aug 05, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 21:34 EDT Just for the record I would like to point out that as of August 1, 1993, Tim Purves had not yet BEGUN to work on a Falcon compatible Aladdin because he had STILL not yet received the information he needs regarding the new serial port hardware from Atari Corp. Also for the record I would like to point out that I first complained about the Falcon breaking Aladdin on May 29, 1993. It may be that as of today, August 5, Tim has the information he needs to begin this project. But if he doesn't, I believe Atari is to blame. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 39 Thu Aug 05, 1993 J.TRAUTSCHOL [jtrautschold] at 22:28 EDT Thunderbird... The problem is, even on the F030, one *still* has to go to the hardware for everyday serial type things! What happens here is that developers are caught between a rock and a hard place. In the case of the serial port, it's not even the point of trying to eek out a feature that wasn't thought possible (like Spectrum 512 does) but a need to do every day serial stuff. You wanna toggle DTR to the modem (to force a disconnect) or send a "break"? Gotta go to the hardware. Wanna operate at a baud rate higher than 19200? Gotta go to the hardware. The reason so many comm programs break is exactly the reason you mentioned. The designers decided they had to go to the hardware in order to extract the best possible performance. This is performance that the operating system can't deliver. Too bad, really. We'd all like to be able to use the ops system where ever possible. But as you know, Atari doesn't always make our lives easy! :-) What Atari needs to start doing with all of the hardware is properly documenting it so that software designers can safely use what they have to use. That would help you out too, and other game designers, in making it so much easier to do what you need to do. With the operating system in the state it is in, even with Falcon TOS, going to the hardware is a necessity for many real purposes. It's too bad, but that's the way it is. One of these days may this will change. What we all need to do is continue to prod TPTB at Atari to improve the OS such that the hardware can be used to it's fullest extend. Let the battle begin! John T. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 40 Fri Aug 06, 1993 S.DANUSER [Soul Manager] at 02:57 EDT I don't know why people are getting upset at Atari for taking a stand on the NVRAM thing. Their position makes perfect sense to me. Imagine some neophyte user who brings home their brand new Falcon and hooks it up. They've gotten a PD disk from wherever they've bought the computer, and try out some of the programs. One of them is the NVRAM CPX. Suppose they enter the wrong settings, trying to get the Falcon to boot in some resolution it can't support, and the machine becomes unbootable. What is the user going to think? Answer: that their Falcon is broken. This causes problems for the user, for the dealer, and for Atari. It's best to leave well enough alone. The NVRAM CPX is a product of hackers, for hackers. Atari is right not to promote its use, since it does have the potential to render a system useless. It's like a gun; in the hands of someone who knows how to use it, there isn't a problem. But in the hands of someone who doesn't know what precautions to take, it can be quite dangerous. Soul Manager ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 41 Fri Aug 06, 1993 J.KRACHT [James Kracht] at 03:00 EDT Chazz: RE: wondering why it's so important to change bootup res. I was at the local music shop, playing with the Falcon, slapping demoes onto the HD, when a "customer" approached me. It turned out he was a keyboard tech for the band Front 242 (in town for Lollapalooza '93). He was awed that the Falcon existed. He was even more awed that I had one. When he saw the bootup screen, he commented that it reminded him of a 130xe. He went on to say that Front 242 had recently given up using Atari computers (specifically because of more powerful Cubases on the Mac). When I changed the bootup res with the NVRAM CPX, and re-booted, his words were "Oh, that's a relief." I didn't ask why. It's not a really a matter of "importance" to people (so I think) that their machine boots in 640x480. It is just one of those things. The compatibility-res is ugly. Downright hideous (IMHO). People tend to react to things of a hideous nature. It's only human. And now, that highly touted NVRAM feature (and yes, it was touted -- if it hadn't been, it wouldn't have stuck in my mind for an entire year) is forbidden, or rather, "treated as leprosy." What a strange world, eh? -=James ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 42 Fri Aug 06, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 04:00 EDT David, I have heard from people that you have to get the Zilog book in order to use and understand the SCC chip and how to address it and what not. Atari doesn't even have the information in their Developer package for the SCC chip. What good is a Developer package if it isn't going to give you the information you need? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 43 Fri Aug 06, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 05:59 EDT Dan: Unless I remember incorrectly, the original Falcon030 Specifications released when it was announced last year did in fact mention the ability of the user to configure things like boot resolution, language, and various other parameters in nonvolatile memory. There were errors in that specification which came out eventually, but I can't see why something this specific would be a mistake. What if someone were to ask you if you could get Atari to release a NVRAM 'tool' that would allow one to change some of the more harmless parameters? I'm sure it would be a trivial task for someone to write such a thing, and even give it the ability to disable various selections which would be harmful to the specific TOS or Monitor or Hard Disk setup it detects. I think the only thing most of us would really need it to do is to boot in a specific mode, enable/disable the RAM test, and maybe alter the language. I'm sure the parameters relating to making an unbootable machine wouldn't be of interest to anyone anyways... Chazz: The importance of booting in high-rez is purely cosmetic. If you turn on the computer and it defaults to 320x200 it very closely resembles CGA on an PC- XT. If you want to show the computer to someone who has a nice '486 or even a '386, you really don't want their initial (read: "first") impression to be how much it reminds them of the computer they had 7 or 8 years ago). Personally, I find the low-rez characters to be rather ugly too, so even without caring what anyone else thinks, I don't like it that way. Sure, my girlfriend looks gorgeous to me without makeup, but try and get her to leave her apartment without it... see how it relates? Come to think of it, some of my 'AUTO' programs print status messages longer than 40 columns, so they get clipped if I don't run 'MEDREZ.PRG' or something as the 1st program in the folder. _______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 44 Fri Aug 06, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:45 EDT Guys, I have 100 PCs that have a memory test built in, too. Atari didn't do anything strange. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 45 Fri Aug 06, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 10:06 EDT Well Wayne, I don't know what the "Zilog book" is. But I consider it incumbent upon ATARI to make sure that Tim Purves gets whatever information he needs to fix Aladdin for the Falcon, including that book if necessary. I am so disgusted that Atari didn't even try to get Aladdin working before releasing the Falcon, and that they never even thought to mention the fact that Aladdin doesn't work. I would have thought twice about rushing out to buy a Falcon if I had known Aladdin was broke. The first day I had my Falcon, May 29, I discovered the problem and complained about it. That was more than two months ago, and all I've gotten since then has been lip service. As of August 1, the only "progress" made is that Tim Purves is now a registered Falcon developer. Big deal. He still doesn't have the information he needs. As you pointed out, that info is not in his developers kit. Sheeesh. According to Tim, Bill Rehbock promised that Mike Fulton would send him the info. After waiting patiently for a while, Tim contacted Mike who wasn't even aware that he was supposed to be sending Tim anything. I guess I'll raise some h*ll in the Dateline Atari conference tonight. If I can't make it, I hope somebody else does it for me. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 46 Fri Aug 06, 1993 ICDINC at 11:36 EDT Dan, I realize that you may not have much input into the subject and I am not trying to fuel the flames here but there are really good uses for NVRAM. Just look at a recent vintage 486 PC Clone. The user can set all kinds of options and save them in battery backed SRAM which is the PC version of NVRAM. On a PC if you hose up the configuration, you can always disconnect the battery to clear NVRAM. On a Falcon, you need to have some way to restore the NVRAM to a default as well. It could be something as simple as a key sequence or shorting an I/O line to ground, or some other low level trick. Lets be creative here instead of flaming and list suggested uses for NVRAM to Atari. 1) Serial number - this would need to be in a protected area that wouldn't be cleared or changed by a program. It would allow serialization of software which would prevent some piracy. 2) Allow the user to choose whether to run the memory test. 3) Set the boot delay depending on the hard drive installed instead of forcing a key press. 4) Boot resolution - sounds like you already have this. 5) C:,A: or A:,C: - If you have a hard drive, there should not be a need to check the floppy first for a disk. C:,A: would first check the hard drive for boot information, A:,C: would work like it does now. 6) Audio level - no more blasting at boot up. I just began thinking about this. I am not sure how much NVRAM is there. It is up to Atari to put the support in the OS for these features. Or maybe they already have plans for all fo the NVRAM. - TOM - ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 47 Fri Aug 06, 1993 ERIC.SMITH [Eric Smith] at 14:25 EDT All: NVRAM.CPX is definitely not safe. It looks safe. It will work reliably "most" of the time. But we have had (numerous) "bug reports" from people who have managed to make their machines unbootable with it and with similar programs. These people did *not* upgrade their versions of TOS; they managed to make their existing TOS and machines unbootable. The reason is quite simple: NVRAM is not to be messed with. Period. End of story. You want to boot up in a different resolution? Put a program in your AUTO folder to change resolution. You want no delay when booting? Press a key to abort the wait. I know people want to push their machines to the limit, to get every possible bit of functionality out of them, etc., etc. But when you do that, you take risks, too. We didn't design NVRAM for application (or end user) use. It's for the OS only. Maybe that was a bad decision, and maybe in future machines we will be able to change that. Maybe. But that falls under the topic of "what would it be nice to have in future machines". For now, NVRAM is undocumented, and unusable except by the operating system. (Remember: for every person who wants every detail of the current hardware and OS revealed, there's someone else who will complain bitterly if any change we make causes any incompatibility. We CANNOT please all of the people all of the time. I'm sorry if you don't like our decision about NVRAM, but that's the way it is.) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 48 Fri Aug 06, 1993 D.MCNAMEE [Dan @ Atari] at 15:37 EST Flakes, Set the resolution and save the desktop. Dan Sean, The NVRAM is there for settings in the machine that Atari may want to set. Some examples are language and keyboard. Dan Thunderbird, I highly doubt that such a program will be made by Atari. I can see something that will set NVRAM back to the factory settings, but anything that allows the user to change at will any of the settings will probably not happen. Dan ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 49 Fri Aug 06, 1993 ARCHIVIST [Charlie] at 16:19 EDT I don't quite understand this NVRAM thing. Are you all refering to the AUTO folder program messages such as, oh, Little Green File Selector-Installed, SpeedoGDOS-Installed, MultiTOS-Installed? Or are you saying that when you get to the Desktop you're always droped into ST Low rez? Does Save Desktop not work, ala TOS 1.6? The latter I could see as an inconvenient problem, but the former seems a little picayune. I mean, I rairly ever even see my MSTE boot up; I just turn it on in the morning and go off to make a pot of coffee. By the time I come back I'm at the desktop. YMMV, of course, since everybody works differently, but I don't see it's worth getting hot and bothered over. Charlie/sysop ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 50 Fri Aug 06, 1993 DMJ [dmj] at 19:12 EDT Chazz: - Personally, I'm curious as to why it's so bleeding _important_ - to some of you that the system boots up immediately in hi-res... I normally use my monochrome monitor with my ST, and one of the things that pains me when I use my color monitor is that it boots in _low_resolution_. I can't imagine paying as much for a Falcon as I'm going to have to just to get a computer that, as soon as you turn it on, reminds you of an 8-bit Atari! (Yes folks, I've watched Falcons boot in low res, and it makes me puke.) Computer users want to _feel_like_ they have a monster machine. And a low- resolution boot screen doesn't do that. Now you know why it's so important. Sean: You tell 'em! If it's there, use it, or it's wasted. Could you imagine if Atari said, "Don't write programs for the DSP, we might use a different DSP in future Falcons." Then -why- bother putting one in? The same applies to NVRAM. Either write the utility yourself or don't complain when someone does. Thank you for the warnings, we understand. John T.: A lot of all those nifty things we love about our Atari STs are "hardware hacks". Things like Spectrum, the only real method for true color on the ST. Things like removing screen borders. Even _digital_sound_ on an ST is a hardware hack. Using the OS is the preferred method, but if you can't do what you need to "legally", through the OS, then do it how you have to. Go to the hardware. -dmj ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 51 Fri Aug 06, 1993 C.OINES1 [Chazz] at 20:39 EDT Oh, God of Gods, it boots in low resolution! Oh, the shame! The AGONY! EWWWWWWWWWE! How absolutely TERRIBLE! I CAN'T USE THIS! IT SPENDS SOME TINY AND IRRELEVANT AMOUNT OF TIME IN LOW RESOLUTION BEFORE GOING TO WHATEVER RESOLUTION I SAVED THE DESKTOP IN! Oh, the horror! The disgust! What an absolutely FILTHY thing this horrible terrible nasty awful Bobforsaken machine does before I can use it. I shudder in revulsion every time I even mistakenly glance anywhere near the monitor before the icons are up WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH! What a TOTAL WASTE OF MONEY I better get me a new Mac and watch it take well over a minute to organize itself on bootup so I don't have to see that Bobdam Low Res screen EVER AGAIN I HATE IT I HATE IT I HATE IT the stupid thing doesn't even have decent professional RCA jacks either goldangnabwammit! DMJ> Now you know why it's so important. Nope. I just think some of you have some _serious_ priority reorganization due. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 52 Fri Aug 06, 1993 B.DEWITT [NerdPerfect] at 21:46 EDT Greg @ Atari; I got my manuals and missing software! I went to J&J Computers today to get some software cards and Lo! someone at Atari had sent Neil (the owner) a collection of the missing items instead of the cards. Thanks, Bob deWitt ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 53 Fri Aug 06, 1993 O-ZONE [Flakes] at 23:09 EDT >Atari-ST RoundTable >Category 14, Topic 41 >Message 181 Fri Aug 06, 1993 >D.MCNAMEE [Dan @ Atari] at 15:37 EST > >Flakes, > > Set the resolution and save the desktop. My problem is that Xboot runs before the NEWDESK.INF is read so when it comes up on the screen I can't see the whole control panel to change settings when I boot up. Eric Smith, Run an auto program to set the resolution? Great idea. Could you suggest one to me? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 54 Fri Aug 06, 1993 DMJ [dmj] at 23:38 EDT Chazz: Thank you for your opinion. As was pointed out by others, though, booting in low resolution makes a bad FIRST IMPRESSION. Have you ever heard the expression, "You never get a second chance to make a first impression?" I believe it applies very well. As for serious priority reorganization, that also is a matter of opinion. What would you like us to focus on instead? How hard it is to get a Falcon, or find a local dealer? The state of Atari? And what would you recommend to Flakes, who isn't seeing part of his control panel when he boots, because _Atari_ says not to use NVRAM to set the boot resolution? You know, there really _are_ more important reasons not to boot in low resolution. -dmj ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 55 Sat Aug 07, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 00:03 EDT There is always one smart..... in the crowd. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 56 Sat Aug 07, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 00:45 EDT Chazz: I found your reply to DMJ to be extremely rude, lacking in taste, and uncalled for. Please do not use Bob's name in vain, either. ______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 57 Sat Aug 07, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 00:57 EDT Nerd Perfect over in the Atari Works Topic just reported that Atari Works somehow put his F030 into German. What gives? How come Atari programs can fiddle with NVRAM but nobody elses can? ___________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 58 Sat Aug 07, 1993 STEVE-J [Steve @ NLS] at 05:53 EDT TOWNS - I didn't say Atari HAD to -- just that it would be easier to keep others from using "dangerous" utilities if they provided their own SAFE ones. Heck! Atari doesn't even need to sell Falcon030's if they don't want to -- which could be considered questionable itself! D.MCNAMEE - I KNOW Bob Brodie (and maybe others) mentioned the configurable NVRAM, but I'll have to look back 9 months ago to find the specific quotes. I seem to remember Motorola said not to use certain registers on the 68000 but Atari did it anyway! Does the word "hypocrit" mean anything? FAIRWEATHER - In Atari's defense (surprise! ), the Falcon030 DID NOT break ST Aladdin. If ST Aladdin were written to use OS calls rather than trying to access hardware directly, it would still work. I believe Tim Purves's reasoning for this is that it wasn't possible to write ST Aladdin to GEnie's specifications without having to write his own serial port driver (which he did, which is why ST Aladdin steals the serial port and doesn't work on the F030). One problem, though, is that, unless I misread a message, Tim said that he probably wouldn't be buying a Falcon030 just to update Aladdin for it, so unless someone GIVES him one, it still might not be done. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 59 Sat Aug 07, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 07:46 EDT Personally, I think you should just be happy if you can get a Falcon without buying a plane ticket. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 60 Sat Aug 07, 1993 C.OINES1 [Chazz] at 08:31 EDT DMJ: The only place I've seen the low-res bootup make a bad first impression has been here. Before my Falcon's HD went belly-up, I showed it off to the rest of the creative staff wierdos at Viacom New Media, Chicago, and nobody even commented on that aspect. If you need a different topic, we could all snark on the extremely amateur in- warranty servicing setup that Atari's currently getting away with... As for Flakes, try DeskManager. It kicks itself into medium res, and worked on mine without problems. >There is always one smart..... in the crowd. That's me. :) T-bird: I can use Bob's name anyway I like. Anything I say is Sacred Dogma automatically, for I have Forked Over the Bucks. But this is extreme topic drift... ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 61 Sat Aug 07, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:38 EDT Chazz, Grow up. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 62 Sat Aug 07, 1993 K.HOUSER [Kevin MQ Def] at 10:49 EDT SteveJ, I think you are referring to Motorola's advice (in their 68000 manual) about _NOT_ using the TRAP #n call for an OS. Yup, Atari blew it big time on that one. BTW, I'm still waiting for my dev Falcon which was _paid_ for in mid June. Atari had better get on the ball. --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 63 Sat Aug 07, 1993 J.P.C. at 11:57 EDT Chaz: Grow Up! ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 64 Sat Aug 07, 1993 D.FREELAND [SAXMAN] at 12:03 EDT To anyone @ Atari: Doesn't it make sense that since GEnie is the on-line headquarters for Atari that Aladdin should be working on its newest machine? I am not a programmer so I don't know what it will take to make Aladdin work on the Falcon but I really don't care. All I know is there are more and more people who want to use Aladdin on their Falcons and we are no closer to getting it then we were 2 months ago. It is costing me a lot more money to uses GEnie without Aladdin and I don't think it is right that Falcon owners are somewhat being "punished" because they bought the machine. Bottom line: I don't want excuses why Aladdin does not work, I want to be able to use Aladdin on my F030!! David ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 65 Sat Aug 07, 1993 M.HILL13 [Mike] at 12:48 EDT David and Wayne, Whats the big deal. The developers docs tell you the addressing for the SCC chip by Zilog. Call Zilog up and get a free data book. And then program the chip. I did it for a little program I wrote to let you use an IBM serial mouse on the Mega STE/TT extra serial ports. Got the serial code section working in a couple hours. If your a developer serious about using the SCC chip you owe it to yourself to get the Data Book. Zilog: Volume I Databook, Microprocessors and Peripherals There phone number (408) 370-8000, Fax # (408) 370-8056 They have app notes also. The SCC chip is a very nice chip. Tom @ ICD, Instead of a bootup delay only, why not poll the drive to see if it is ready and then boot it, or time out after a set period. Mike ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 66 Sat Aug 07, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 12:50 EDT My sentiments exactly, Saxman. I probably would have sold my STacy by now, if it weren't for the fact that I need it to run Aladdin. There is no excuse for Aladdin not being available to Falcon users. Since Mike Fulton is the person at Atari who has the ball in his court at the moment, I suggest we start sending him E-mail to drive home the importance of this issue. Anyone know his E-mail address? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 67 Sat Aug 07, 1993 M.HILL13 [Mike] at 12:53 EDT Saxman, Steve is right. Stalker works on the Falcon because it followed the guidelines. Aladdin installs its own Interrupt Handlers for the serial ports instead of using the built in ones. If Tim would have used the built in ones there would not be a problem. Tim probably used his own ISR's because of some problem he had with the built in routines. But I never had a problem with them with Connect, Old Flash, Stalker (a friend uses it heavily), and others. Course if he wants to use his own ISR for the Zilog chip do like I said before. Get the databook and go at it. Its not that difficult. Mike ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 68 Sat Aug 07, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 13:04 EDT Mike Hill- I'm not a developer and I'm not sure exactly what info Tim Purves is looking for from Atari. It might be helpful if you would visit the ST Aladdin RT and discuss this matter directly with Tim in the "ST Aladdin Problems" topic. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 69 Sat Aug 07, 1993 JOHN.KING.T [JOHN KING T] at 13:37 EDT David, I suggest that you give a call to Tim. He may have some updated information for you. JKT ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 70 Sat Aug 07, 1993 D.FREELAND [SAXMAN] at 14:35 EDT Last I heard, Aladdin for the F030 was at a stand-still. Getting the Zilog book would be of no use to me. for these reasons. 1) I am not a programmer. 2) I don't have the proper software to do programming. 3) I don't have the time to learn how. 4) I would not want to hack someones elses code even if I could do it. 5) It is not my responsibility to fix this problem, if I had a problem like this with IBM or MAC they would not tell me to write my own code. They would work with me. It is software and hardware support that made IBM so big because it sure was not product design. That is why novice users will avoid Atari's because we are not all programmers and don't aspire to be. Granted, I can understand what the problems are and why but the average user won't and until Atari and the other developers try to correct this, they won't get many NEW users to the platform. People can be very intimidated by computers and I believe that computer companies should try to make it easier for the first timers to get a machine instead of making it more difficult by complicating everything. BTW If it is so easy to modify code for the Zilog, why hasn't a experienced programmer like Tim done it by now? David ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 71 Sat Aug 07, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 17:31 EDT >The only place I've seen the low-res bootup make a bad first impression has >been here. Before my Falcon's HD went belly-up, I showed it off to the rest of >the creative staff wierdos at Viacom New Media, Chicago, and nobody even >commented on that aspect. > What does that prove? Usually people are polite enough to keep their BAD impressions to themselves? If you went to Viacom with a pimple on the end of your nose, would you _really_ expect them to say "God, that pustulent nodule on your nose is really grossing me out. Please leave before I blow chunks."? Frankly, I honestly believe they will try to ignore the infected pore and pretend it is not there. Of course, after you leave they will probably turn to one another and say "Bob, did you see the whitehead on that guy? I was trying to keep back from him at least 6 feet because I thought it was gonna blow any second... har har har hee hee hee haa haa haa." Therefore, _lack_ of comment from someone is not admissible as evidence in this matter. Sorry. ____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 72 Sat Aug 07, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 17:37 EDT Steve, What OS calls do you use to check for Carrier Detect or how about Ring Indicator? I believe you still have to go to the hardware registers to get those things and with the Falcon, those calls break. If Atari had/would provide OS calls to check these things and to set the port to higher than 19200, then we wouldn't have to go to the hardware registers. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 73 Sat Aug 07, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 18:58 EDT Mike, The big deal is that should be provided in the Developer docs. I mean that is what they are for isn't it? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 74 Sat Aug 07, 1993 M.GARRISON1 [Lazarus] at 19:40 EDT Flakes, I am using XBOOT v.3.03 with my Falcon with no problems. Just make sure that it is the first prg in the auto folder. Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 75 Sat Aug 07, 1993 AEO.7 [Gregg] at 20:18 EDT Chazz, T-Bird..... guys; let's drop it.... ok? Thanks; Gregg ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 76 Sat Aug 07, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 21:28 EDT Seems like the simplest fix would be for Aladdin to just use the standard system calls that Atari supports on all their computers. The terminal programs that use this method work correctly even on multiply ports. Aladdin not working is mostly the fault of the programmer for assuming things would remain the same indefinately. BTW, I use Aladdin all the time and love it. Tim did an excellent job automating GEnie and I wouldn't want to be without it. But if something doesn't work it's usually because the programmer took some liberties in order to get the most out of the computer. Thats OK but don't blame Atari when it doesn't work on newer machines. Blame Atari for a lack of developer support but it's unfair to blame them for somebodies software not working correctly, they didn't break it on purpose. It's impossible for them to provide better hardware with the same technology in the ST. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 77 Sat Aug 07, 1993 C.OINES1 [Chazz] at 21:38 EDT >...polite enought to keep their BAD impressions to themselves?... Heh heh heh... You wouldn't have said that if you knew our programming/art staff. I'm the politest one among them... Anyway, this _is_ too silly to bother arguing about any further. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 78 Sat Aug 07, 1993 D.FREELAND [SAXMAN] at 22:10 EDT It is also the fault of Atari for not making sure the proper tools were made available to modify Aladdin as well as the programmers fault as mentioned in message 209 but Aladdin is not just a program, it is THE program that makes it a breeze to use GEnie which is supposed to be the on-line headquarters for Atari. Atari should be making sure that for whatever reason. Aladdin should be fixed to work on the Falcon. Whether it is Atari's fault or not, they should be trying to correct it because it makes them look bad and new users won't want to mess with this stuff. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 79 Sat Aug 07, 1993 DABRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 23:03 EDT Who owns the copyright on Aladdin? GEIS? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 80 Sun Aug 08, 1993 R.BUSH [Richard Bush] at 00:11 EDT >You need to install the SAM_SET.CPX in order to get sound with >MultiTOS. Just make sure it is in Your CPX-folder. Don't expect it to >show up in the control panel though, as all it does is to activate the >sound. I have my SAM_SET.CPX active but I still don't get most system sounds under MultiTOS. What am I doing wrong? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 81 Sun Aug 08, 1993 O-ZONE [Flakes] at 01:05 EDT Lazarus, Are you saying that Xboot sets the resolution? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 82 Sun Aug 08, 1993 STEVE-J [Steve @ NLS] at 07:35 EDT R.WATSON15 - Falcon TOS only allows setting the port up to 19200bps??? How lame -- considering they were excited to tell us the Falcon's new serial port would allow up to 115,000bps! REALM - Like I said, Tim Purves's reason for ST Aladdin having its own serial port driver is because it HAD to be that way in order to program it to GEnie's specifications. ALL Aladdin programs have to be written to GEnie's specifications, so the programmers aren't at liberty to program it any way they wish. Blaming Tim for Aladdin not working on the Falcon030 is sort of like blaming him for the removal of the billing clock/history! DABRUMLEVE - Well, as the ultimate owner, General Electric owns the copyright on Aladdin. I think it even says so in the 'About Aladdin...' box -- YEP, I just checked! ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 83 Sun Aug 08, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 08:52 EDT REALM [Joey]: The problem with using OS calls to do common everyday things with the serial port is that the OS calls have to _be there_ in order to be called by a programmer. Even the most basic comm program has to have some way to tell when a modem has detected a carrier, and a way to hang up the modem. Since OS routines to do this are simply not there, the programmer is forced to go to the hardware. In the case of Spectrum breaking on the STe, etc. I will agree wholeheartedly that it is physically impossible to make a faster computer that WON'T break spectrum. Spectrum is tied to the timing specific to the ST, and cannot be made to work on any other machine. Therefore, Atari is completely in the right on that matter. However, since they wrote the OS without calls to do some very basic serial communications functions, and then changed the hardware, some burden of responsibility must fall on them. They didn't break Spectrum in any way, but they did break a lot of Comm programs, at least indirectly by not providing OS calls for some very basic functions. Keep in mind that they really don't owe it to anyone to make any machine compatible with any other, and could just as well have made a PowerPC or a Jaguar RISC based machine that won't run _any_ ST software. Be grateful that they made a compatible machine. It really would be nice if they would assist in the ST Aladdin conversion. I'm sure they have allowed other GEnie personalities use of new hardware for their dedicated support. It would be a really nice gesture for them to help Tim out. ST Aladdin rules! ________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 84 Sun Aug 08, 1993 D.FREELAND [SAXMAN] at 09:29 EDT Thunderbird, Not only be it be nice, but I believe that Atari owes it to Falcon owners who have sold their old machines and put hard earned money and lots of faith in their company and their new machine. If they have to loan Tim a F030 to get it done, then that's what they should be doing. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 85 Sun Aug 08, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 11:48 EDT I only blame Atari for (1) Not telling the public that Aladdin didn't work on the Falcon. If I had known I probably wouldn't have rushed out to buy a Falcon. (2) Not approaching Tim before the Falcon was released and working with him to fix Aladdin. (3) Not giving Tim the information he needs to fix Aladdin within a few days of his first request for it. (Which I understand was many months before the Falcon was released.) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 86 Sun Aug 08, 1993 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 12:26 EDT Please see my reply concerning Aladdin and Tim P. in the developers' kit topic (category 14 topic 17). >Steve is right. Stalker works on the Falcon because it followed the >guidelines. SAXMAN >Last I heard, Aladdin for the F030 was at a stand-still. Why? A dealer online offer to let Tim use his Falcon, since Tim doesn't want/can't buy one. >if I had a problem like this with IBM or MAC they would not tell me to >write my own code. They would work with me. I find that hard to believe. >BTW If it is so easy to modify code for the Zilog, why hasn't a >experienced programmer like Tim done it by now? Good question. Yep, why? Joey > Seems like the simplest fix would be for Aladdin to just use the >standard system calls that Atari supports on all their computers. But then we won't have the problem we have now, would we? >Tim did an excellent job automating GEnie and I wouldn't want to be >without it. But if something doesn't work it's usually because the >programmer took some liberties in order to get the most out of the >computer. Thats OK but don't blame Atari when it doesn't work on >newer machines. I agree totally. Be careful, you will be labeled part of the clicke, group, ATARI gang or whatever the current euphemism may be [grin]. >REALM - Blaming Tim for Aladdin not working on the Falcon030 is sort >of like blaming him for the removal of the billing clock/history! Wayne, or sort of like blaming ATARI because of GEnie/Tim. Right? Thunderbird >some burden of responsibility must fall on them. Exactly! Some, not all and definitely, subjective comment, not more than 50%. >Be grateful that they made a compatible machine. I know I wouldn't buy a noncompatible ATARI. However, excellent point; IMHO. > It really would be nice if they would assist in the ST Aladdin >conversion. Again, see my post in the dev. kit topic. BTW, I use Aladdin everyday and won't be without it. Do the front end for CIS work on the Falcon? I have no idea. Jim, are you out there? David >I only blame Atari for (1) Not telling the public that Aladdin didn't >work on the Falcon. If I had known I probably wouldn't have rushed out >to buy a Falcon. (2) Not approaching Tim before the Falcon was >released and working with him to fix Aladdin. (3) Not giving Tim the >information he needs to fix Aladdin within a few days of his first >request for it. (Which I understand was many months before the Falcon >was released.) Huh? 1) I thought it is developers that should check for compatibility? 2) Why didn't Tim approach ATARI? According to the EMail I was sent, he never approached ATARI. I approached both of them. Ask Tim for his EMail, if you like. 3) Tim wasn't a developer. Tim only recently sent in his information. Your understanding is erroneous according to both Tim's and ATARI's EMail. Again, ask Tim for the EMail. However, we both agree that it should be Falcon compatible. I also, would like more than one port on the TT/MSTE. I know about the handshaking but why can STalker do it? ~~~~Brian ... Written on Sunday 08 August 1993 at 11:41 a.m. ADT let's try to keep this an argument and not personal attacks. Thanks. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 88 Sun Aug 08, 1993 M.GARRISON1 [Lazarus] at 14:38 EDT Flakes, When I boot the falcon it comes up in low rez, but when Xboot shows up the resolution has changed to either med or hi rez (i am not sure which). Of course Xboot then reloads the newdesk.inf for whatever application you are going to use. Just make sure Xboot is the first .prg in your auto folder and you shouldn't have any problem. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 89 Sun Aug 08, 1993 O-ZONE [Flakes] at 15:55 EDT Laz, What kind of monitor are you using? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 90 Sun Aug 08, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 16:51 EDT Brian - rather than expend all this energy deciding who is to blame, why can't we just all agree that Aladdin needs to be fixed and spend the same energy planning the fastest way to ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 91 Sun Aug 08, 1993 B.FREEMAN1 [BFREEMAN] at 17:16 EDT All NVRAM junkies, I used the bootconf.prg to change my Falcons NVRAM so it would boot up in 640x480 mode, and it looks good. The only thing is that games like Dungeon Master won't autoload from floppy in this rez. If your a gamer like me then this is a BIG problem. My Falcon now boots in st low again.(grin) Anyone @ Atari, I've noticed that the vt-52 codes for changing text and background color (escb# and escc#) don't work on my Falcon. Any chance than there will be a fix for this soon? This bug effects a lot of programs like the terminal I'm using right now. My Falcon has Tos 4.04 . -B.FreeMan ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 92 Sun Aug 08, 1993 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 17:45 EDT David >rather than expend all this energy deciding who is to blame, why can't >we just all agree that Aladdin needs to be fixed and spend the same >energy planning the fastest way to I totally agree! That is why I never posted anything during this current thread until today. Today, I finally got a little inpatient with the way the thread was going. Very little constructive criticism or solutions but blame, blame, and more blame. As far as I know, I have done what I can. I have EMailed the parties concern and only hope they communicate. Unfortunately, the solution will not occur overnight. Patience is definitely a virtue in this case. ~~~~Brian ... Written on Sunday 08 August 1993 at 06:38 p.m. ADT don't blame; solve the problem! ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 93 Sun Aug 08, 1993 JOHN.KING.T [JOHN KING T] at 18:09 EDT Saxman and Fairweater, I suggest you leave GEmail to Tim and find out the current status of all this. JKT ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 94 Sun Aug 08, 1993 D.FREELAND [SAXMAN] at 18:24 EDT Brian, I agree totally aand I have already E-Mailed the proper people as well, about 6 weeks ago and nothing new has developed so I have nothing to do but complain and wait. Now that I have blown off some steam, I wait another 6 weeks:-) David ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 95 Sun Aug 08, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 19:22 EDT They should have also let the developers know they were going to change the hardware. some of the early Falcons still had the 68901 (or something like that) in it and com programs worked. They then decided to change the hardware and didn't tell anyone. Now, all the com programs didn't work. So yes, it was a decision on Atari's part and they are the ones that are to blame for this one. Stalker already had code in there for the other types of ports and allowed use of them. It's the programs that used only port 1 that really have the trouble. The BIG problem is that there IS NOT ANY OS CALLS for Carrier Detect so you HAVE TO GO TO THE HARDWARE. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 96 Sun Aug 08, 1993 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 19:44 EDT Saxman/David, What was their response? Who did you EMail; Tim, Bill? I can really appreciate your frustration. It is so cost effective with Aladdin. Unfortunately, you may be mad, for what I am going to say, but I think six more weeks is being to optimistic. ~~~~Brian ... Written on Sunday 08 August 1993 at 08:32 p.m. ADT ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 97 Sun Aug 08, 1993 R.BUSH [Richard Bush] at 20:12 EDT >It is costing me a lot more money to uses GEnie without Aladdin and I >don't think it is right that Falcon owners are somewhat being >"punished" because they bought the machine. Bottom line: I don't want >excuses why Aladdin does not work, I want to be able to use Aladdin on >my F030!! YES! I can't get along without Aladdin, so I'm stuck using a 520 ST and single floppy (that I use as a game machine) with Aladdin. I know that Atari has no responsibility to help Mr. Purvis fix Aladdin, but perhaps they could go out of their way to help him for the benefit of all of the customers who bought Falcons not knowing Aladdin wouldn't work. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 98 Sun Aug 08, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 20:16 EDT Steve, OK, I'll blame GEnie then but I still don't think it's fair to blame Atari if it doesn't work.:-) Actually, I don't see the need to blame anyone as Aladdin still won't work correctly. Thunderbird, I agree with everything you said but I'm not sure about the OS stuff. I believe Stalker works fine and it also detects when a connection is made and hangs up the modem. Along with fixing it for the Falcon however I'd like to see it work on the port the XCONTROL.ACC sets it too, not just Modem 1. Brian, I'm not worried about being in a click, I've complained plenty in CAT18 and I plan to again.:-) I never clicked anyway.:-) What does Aladdin not do exactly? I thought it worked fine if you logged on manually. I've never tried it on the Falcon as it works fine on the TT. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 99 Sun Aug 08, 1993 B.DEWITT [NerdPerfect] at 20:31 EDT About the NVRAM controversy: personally, I don't know whether it's wise to use the program or not, but after reading the warnings from Atari personnel, I decided to remove it. The only way I could figure to get my original settings back, though, was to use the Reset program that came with the NVRAM files. That's where the troubles started. The Reset program worked, all right, although what it did was to reset my default settings to German standards! Everything on my DeskTop was converted to German and my keyboard was reconfigured for German as well. I was at a loss as how to restore my English settings, but my local dealer cured my computer of its foreign tendancies with a PD program (called NVConfigure, or something like that). Now everything's more or less back to normal. Had me going for a while, though.... Bob deWitt ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 100 Sun Aug 08, 1993 O-ZONE [Flakes] at 21:58 EDT I'm probably gonna take some "guff" from this but I decided to try the NVRAM.PRG on my Falcon 030 to reset the non-volitle RAM to boot in hi-res and... it worked like a charm. My aplogies to Atari Corp. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 101 Sun Aug 08, 1993 D.FREELAND [SAXMAN] at 23:49 EDT Brian, Last I heard, Bill Rehbock said he was giving the info to Tim and making arrangements to get him a Falcon. The basic attitude of the sysops in the Aladdin RT is that they don't seem to care much about the Falcon owners and won't give them so much as a clue about what is going on or how long it will take. I have seen a few posts that were seemingly ignored by the sysops. Again, this is a waste of time but I really would like to see Aladdin on my F030 but at this point, I don't know what else I could be doing to speed up things. I am, at least for now, going to drop this in the hopes that the right people are doing the right things to get Aladdin going on the Falcon. David ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 102 Mon Aug 09, 1993 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 00:20 EDT Saxman, EMail them again, Can't hurt [grin]. I think the Aladdin Sysops do care. However, IMHO, they can't do anything and it is up to Tim and ATARI. Personally, I figure it would be hard to do without having a Falcon in front of you. ~~~~Brian ... Written on Monday 09 August 1993 at 01:19 a.m. ADT ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 103 Mon Aug 09, 1993 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 01:00 EDT Cant Aladdin just ask the modem if it is detecting a carrier? Isn't it simply a matter of checking a status bit? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 104 Mon Aug 09, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 01:11 EDT As of this evening, August 8, Tim Purves has not received the info he needs. But he has been told that it is "in the mail." I intend to remain a squeaky wheel on this issue. Soon the ball will be in Tim's court... and then it will be passed to GEnie which will have the ultimate say as to whether Falcon Aladdin will ever become a reality. When I find out exactly WHO in the GEnie heirarchy will be making that decision, I'll let you all know. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 105 Mon Aug 09, 1993 S.FARWIG [STAN] at 01:57 EDT About this NVRAM (.CPX) thing...am I missing out on something more to be outraged over? Or am I being my usual dense self & missing the point. Are the references to booting in low-res with the SC1224 monitor? I haven't tried that, but until all these messages I had the distinct impression that my Falcon boots in 640x480x256 on my VGA monitor. I thought that was something of a high resolution. It always looked good to me and, while I've never seen an "Atari 8-bit" display to make me "puke", I had no idea it would resemble my Falcon display. Doubting my perception, I tried doing some testing with Compo's Screenblaster which provides 13 resolutions to choose from on booting. I tried the 640x480x265 and it looked exactly like the default display. Then I went to higher resolutions, up to the 944x740x256 maximum. It didn't look any prettier unless you fancy teeny-weeny icons I know this message must be misguided, somehow, since my betters are upset over the NVRAM prohibition. I do recommend the excellent COMPO Screenblaster which offers more resolutions in the various video modes than I know what to do with and I guess Atari Corp. doesn't disapprove of this device. And Dan@Atari, I can't resist saying I'm exceedingly grateful that Trio Engineering didn't except Atari's advice to abort Spectrum. It remains my favorite Atari program and overcame the ST's greatest shortcoming; one that is a shame Atari couldn't overcome "legally". Spectrum is the reason I hang on to my MegaST in spite of having a Falcon, at least until the happy day when there is a paint program of comparable sophistication for the Falcon. If some folks blamed Atari for Spectrum breaking on later machines, they obviously didn't read the Spectrum manual, and that was unfortunate. But then, many never read the manual to learn how much Spectrum can do. In any case, I knew what the stakes were and, even as a techno-idiot, knew better than to place the blame on Atari. I hope Atari doesn't discourage developers from stretching the envelope very often. Even if Atari didn't do it first, it retains the credit for providing the tools for others to do it. Stan ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 106 Mon Aug 09, 1993 TIMPURVES at 03:39 EST >> Even the most basic comm program has to have some way >>to tell when a modem has detected a carrier, and a way >>to hang up the modem. Since OS routines to do this are >>simply not there, the programmer is forced to go to the >>hardware. This is the biggest reason Aladdin does not work on the Falcon. There does not exist calls to do what needs to be done. So you have to bang on the hardware... There are basicly four problems. 1) There is no call to detect carrier, a programmer must bang the on the hardware to detect carrier... I don't even know where it is on the Falcon. 2) When running with flow control, there is no way to unplug an XOFF'ed transmitter. You are basicly hung if you get a burst of line noise. 3) The serial routines in the rom are very inefficent, they provide no block mode read or writes. Very expensive to call. 4) The OS routines are bug ridden, look at all the patches that have been released. The serial routines in Aladdin, are the same ones wrote back in 1986 for MichTron BBS. When the TT first came out we when through the same problems, I even made a few Atari people beta testers, in an effort to get the information, It didn't help. I have mentioned several times that the serial port support is lacking, and it sure would be nice not to have to bang on the hardware. This isn't a stupid PC. But nothing has ever materalized. To this day, Aladdin does not support the extra ports on the TT. Stalker works because Eric has his own routines (like Aladdin), to talk directly to the hardware. For whatever reasons he received the information or gleamed it from the ROM routines. I would love to remove all the serial handling code from Aladdin, and use the OS, but they do not exist yet. Rumor has it this will be changing in the near future. Bob Rehbock, said several weeks (month or more) that he would have Mike Fulton send me a package. When I asked Mike last week of the status, he knew nothing about it. He later informed me it was in the mail. Once the information arives, I will read it over and present GEnie the options, they will make the final call. ciao, -tim P.S. Atari has offered to sell me a machine, I have declined pending on receiving of the information. I wasn't about to disassemble ROM routines to hack out the information I needed, it seemed stupid. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 107 Mon Aug 09, 1993 D.LIVINGST11 [ErnestBovine] at 03:39 EDT Kevin, > I think you are referring to Motorola's advice > (in their 68000 manual) about _NOT_ using the TRAP #n > call for an OS. I don't remember seeing that. Where is it? What's wrong with using traps to set the S-bit? Sure, it could have been done a little better. Function numbers (and other parameters, or pointer to parameter block) could be passed in registers instead of on the stack. Then you wouldn't have to check which stack (usp/ssp) and which stack frame format every time your TSR patches on OS call. Better yet, Atari could have documented a list (in RAM) of all the OS functions' code. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 108 Mon Aug 09, 1993 ATARI.BENLUX [W. Kilwinger] at 05:13 EDT Wayne Watson, > >David, > I have heard from people that you have to get the Zilog book in order to use >and understand the SCC chip and how to address it and what not. Atari doesn't >even have the information in their Developer package for the SCC chip. What >good is a Developer package if it isn't going to give you the information you >need? > Atari mentions the SCC addresses (which you need since they are system specific). Atari does not included Zilogs copyrighted SCC documentation which you can order from Zilog directly. Further Atari can supply you with sample code. (I placed an assembler listing in GEnie a while ago). ALL: Could we stop the Falcon Aladdin discussion ? I'm sure no one knows the facts but if you read the comments it seems that everybody was there. I offered Tim some help but I'm sure he doesn't need it since Mike Fulton will help him. (And I'm sure that Tim knows the way to Mike since I've seen GEnie communication between them in the past). Anyway, I will do follow-up to see if things are running. (Yes, I like to see a Falcon Aladdin as soon as possible) Wayne Watson, > > They should have also let the developers know they were going to change the >hardware. some of the early Falcons still had the 68901 (or something like >that) in it and com programs worked. They then decided to change the hardware >and didn't tell anyone. Now, all the com programs didn't work. So yes, it was >a decision on Atari's part and they are the ones that are to blame for this >one. You tell things that are not true !! In the developer documentation that came out with the rev. 2 Falcon's we stated that the 68901 will be replaced by the SCC for FAST serial communications. That documentation went ONLY out to developers that received a rev. 2 Falcon030 and to nobody else. That was March- May 1992. In June 1992 we held a developer comference in London for 105 european developers. They received the rev.4 documentation and we discussed most of the system. We introduced the machine in August 1992 in Germany. From that date everybody could order the developer documentation. So please stop telling rumors if you don't know the facts. You hurt Atari. You can't judge if you don't have the facts ! Regards, Wilfred ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 109 Mon Aug 09, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 06:31 EDT Tim, Thanks for posting! Facts always help when forming an opinion on something.:-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 110 Mon Aug 09, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 07:05 EDT I was relying on FACTS told to me by a DEVELOPER. Atari hurts Atari. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 111 Mon Aug 09, 1993 B.STOREY [Billy B.] at 09:16 EDT Seems to that Atari has some programmers on their staff. These programmers are pretty good at what they do. Atari has some circuit designers on their staff. These designers are pretty good at what they do. These designers design new circuits for new machines. I am sure they design the best circuits they are capable of designing, using the guidelines they are given. These programmers write the best programs they are capable of writing, using the guidelines they are given. Unfortunately, although they have designed the best circuitry, and programmed the best programs in the computer world, they are not omnipotent. There are always better designers and better programmers critiquing their work. Someone will always find better ways of doing things. When they do, Atari changes to the newer ways. However good it becomes, The Atari computer will ALWAYS be in the position that "It could have been better". Is there a computer out there that always does EVERYTHING right? I doubt it. If we didn't think Atari was doing it best, we wouldn't be buying Atari's. Ever since they first announced the Falcon, there have been a few guys complaining bitterly that it won't do this or that. Outside developers are selling products that make Falcon do the things Atari didn't. The next generation of Atari will be the same. Best damn computer on the market, but some people are going to cry because it won't clean the pool for them. "Bah! What fools these mortals be!" - Puck ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 112 Mon Aug 09, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 09:51 EDT Stan, re NVRAM everyone is talking about the first few seconds of bootup when the Atari logo and memory test are displayed. Re Spectrum being your favorite paint program --we may have already discussed this but-- if you like Spectrum you'd LOVE Unispec! Wilfred -- with all due respect, I don't intend to "Stop the Falcon Aladdin discussion." It's taken more than two months of complaining to get us to the point where we are today. I'll stop the discussion when a fix is here. As I said, once the ball is out of Atari's court the discussion will probably be aimed more at GEnie to help GEnie comprehend the importance of this matter. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 113 Mon Aug 09, 1993 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 11:37 EDT David >I intend to remain a squeaky wheel on this issue. Soon the ball will >be in Tim's court... exactly WHO in the GEnie heirarchy will be >making that decision, I'll let you all know. The ball has been in Tim's court before now. Also, why don't you ask Tim for the name of the person that makes the final decision? I doubt this person log on to this message topic. TIMPURVES >When the TT first came out we when through the same problems, I even > made a few Atari people beta testers, in an effort to get the > information, For whatever reasons he received the information or > gleamed it from the ROM routines. As was mention in the EMail, the person at ATARI needed to get this information from wasn't made aware. No offical channels, according to the EMail (you never disputed this), was ever made between ATARI and you. >He later informed me it was in the mail. Once the information arives, >I will read it over and present GEnie the options, they will make the >final call. From the EMail I have, it is in the mail. I thought, from EMail, they were awaiting the return of your developer signup information? This was the reason for the delay, according to EMail. When you left Michtron, your developer registration was still for Michtron not you. >P.S. Atari has offered to sell me a machine, I have declined pending >on receiving of the information. I wasn't about to disassemble ROM >routines to hack out the information I needed, it seemed stupid. They also offered to loan you a machine if you would get someone at GEnie to sign for it. Wilfred, >ALL: Could we stop the Falcon Aladdin discussion ? I'm sure no one >knows the facts but if you read the comments it seems that everybody >was there. I know the facts of the eleven to fifteen EMail between ATARI reps and Tim, that I was cced.. IMHO, no one is to blame. However, others with little facts differ on this point. That's the only the reason I am writing these posts. I was tired of one-sided opinions. Again, neither side is to blame in my opinion. Rather it was a case of communication theory not being applied. >From that date everybody could order the developer documentation. Tim only recently returned to being an ATARI developer. Officially, that is. Obviously, he is a great developer regarding ALaadin. I can't use GEnie without it! Real nice program. >So please stop telling rumors if you don't know the facts. You hurt >Atari. You can't judge if you don't have the facts ! That was the only reason I poked my nose into this thread! (To try to set the record straight not create rumors.) FAIRWEATHER [David] >It's taken more than two months of complaining to get us to the > point where we are today. I'll stop the discussion when a fix is > here. As I said, once the ball is out of Atari's court the > discussion will probably be aimed more at GEnie to help GEnie > comprehend the importance of this matter. David, you still don't get it? When the original message was posted months ago, I sent EMail and got cced on quite a lot back. The complaining here hasn't done anything but cloud the issue. It is like correlational analysis, I can state that the increase in refrigerators is directly correlated to the rise in skin cancer. Did the refrigerators caused the cancer? Did your complaining cause ATARI to do something? Not according to the EMails. The present situation was just as the EMails, I received, stated. That is, a developer sign up agreement needed to be completed and the required information needed to be sent to Tim. Tim has recently mention in the Aladdin RT that even when he gets the required information, he has no idea when or IF it will be implemented. He will priorite it and go from there. Maybe an analogy would be appropriate. If you have a problem with your car, do you complain all the time to your friend or complain to the company? Do you complain to the mechanic or the head of the maintenance shop? Sure, complain but make it effective. I know my first EMail was VERY effective and the only reason I know so much on this issue. {Soap box mode off.} BTW, you have every right to be mad but focus it to get results not messages. Then post results here. (IMHO). ~~~~Brian ... Written on Monday 09 August 1993 at 10:44 a.m. ADT ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 114 Mon Aug 09, 1993 JWEAVERJR [John@RSCARDS] at 12:01 EDT Tim, your 106 is utterly amazing. Those are the _exact_ same problems I had writing the first version of MI-TERM on my "ENGINEERING SAMPLE" pre-release 520, back in 1985. I find it completely inconceivable that eight years have passed without a resolution to such basic hardware/OS flaws. Sheesh! -JW ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 115 Mon Aug 09, 1993 ERIC.SMITH [Eric Smith] at 17:52 EDT Flakes: I'm sure there are utilities available here on GEnie that will change resolution when placed in the AUTO folder; I think someone else mentioned Desk Manager works, and I seem to remember a program written for the original ST called something like MEDREZ.PRG. Kevin: I really don't think Motorola advised anyone not to use the TRAP #n call for operating systems, since that is in fact what the call was designed for! Perhaps you're confusing this with the line F functions used by GEM in early versions of TOS. Those haven't been used since TOS 1.6 (i.e. we fixed that a long time ago) and in any event never caused problems on 68000 machines, only on later processors. B.FREEMAN: Thanks for the bug report about the VT52 escape codes. You're the first person to mention this bug, which is rather surprising -- apparently not many programs use those escape codes. I'll have to be honest with you and say that it's not likely that there will be a fix in the very near future; we have other priorities right now, I'm afraid. If it's any consolation, TOS/TTP programs run under MultiTOS are able to use the escape codes for changing colors, so that could be used as a temporary work-around until a fix is available. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 116 Mon Aug 09, 1993 D.MCNAMEE [Dan @ Atari] at 19:16 EST Flakes, Try Desk Manager. It switches the res to 80 column before comming up and letting you choose your auto/acc configs. Dan Thunderbird, Actually, he had been fiddling with the NVRAM CPX, which set his system to German without his knowledge. Works definately does not play with NVRAM. Dan B.Freeman, I'll pass on the info about the VT-52 problem. Dan ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 117 Mon Aug 09, 1993 M.GARRISON1 [Lazarus] at 20:03 EDT Flakes, I am using a 14" .28 dp VGA from AOC. Hope that helps. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 118 Mon Aug 09, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 21:54 EDT Brian, maybe it IS just a coincidence that the only action towards fixing Aladdin began AFTER my first complaint on May 29. Maybe if I had kept silent, instead of leaving messages for Tim and Bob Brodie the instant I realized a problem existed, and everyone else had kept silent too, Tim and Atari would have begun communicating no later than they eventually did. Maybe if everyone shuts up now and doesn't say another word about wanting Aladdin fixed, all the parties involved with still move with all possible haste towards a solution. Maybe. But I doubt it. As I've said before, I'm not trying to point the finger of blame at anyone. Casting blame results in defensive reactions that only slow down the process. All I want is for Aladdin TO GET FIXED AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE. I'm open to anyone's ideas and suggestions as to how I can best help achieve that goal. Your suggestion seems to be "shut up and wait." Not a completely unreasonable suggestion, but one which I'm not yet ready to adopt. Do you think all the discussion on this issue has been COUNTERproductive? Convince me of that I will indeed shut up. But short of that, even if my complaining has had no net effect, I'll keep talking. At least it makes me feel better. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 119 Mon Aug 09, 1993 D.FREELAND [SAXMAN] at 22:04 EDT I think when you raise a fuss about something. It tends to get fixed quicker than when you don't. If no one indicated that they want Aladdin on their F030, do you think that Tim would be making any effort to get it going? I doubt it. If I were Tim and no one wanted Aladdin for the Falcon I sure as heck would not bother writing it. I do beleive Tim is aware of the disatisfaction of Falcon owners concerning Aladdin and he also knows that more owners (as machines are sold) will feel the same way so I feel that he is probably doing everything he can at this point. I just wish that this could have been remedied sooner but there is no sense in complaining about the past. Hopefully we will see Aladdin for the Falcon somewhat soon. David ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 120 Mon Aug 09, 1993 J.TRAUTSCHOL [jtrautschold] at 22:07 EDT SAM-RAPP... No, a telecom program can't just go out and start asking the modem questions about its status, at least not while the modem is online. Naturally, carrier detect is one of those things that occur after the modem goes on line. If the program started sending out commands to the modem to check it's internal state, then you'd end up loosing characters and such that are coming off the phone line. It's more than just carrier detect though! There's a reason why you are required to have a fully populated 25 pin connector for that modem. Many of those lines have major significance for the smooth operation of a terminal program. These include DCD (Data Carrier Detect), DTR (Data Terminal Ready), RTS/CTS (Request to Send/Clear to Send) handshaking and RI (Ring Indicator). These are the most used but there are others as well. These are not signals that can be gotten from the "communications" side of the modem. They are hardware-driven which means that the comm program must be able to "look" or "activate" the lines for specific purposes. Unfortunately, the operating system doesn't support any of these except for RTS/CTS. You must go to the hardware to extract and control this information. Even in the Falcon there still is no support for this stuff. There's no support for higher baud rate selection either in the OS. And not only that, but to extract rates higher than 38400 out of the SCC chip (used on the Falcon and on the extra ports of the MegaSTE and TT030) you have to screw around with external timer inputs and such. Quite honestly, Atari's support for the serial ports has always been bad, and it's not getting any better any time soon. There are other problems too. For example, in the program I represent, Flash II, we decided to increase the size of the data buffer internally. I believe the OS only supports a buffer size of 256 bytes. If you're doing high-speed Zmodem transfers, that just isn't going to cut. Even high speed text won't work with that size buffer. Programs like STalker, which do use the OS for data transfer, get around that problem by supplying an external program (I believe you need to load it from your auto folder) which "increases" the size of that buffer. It's a kludge that many other terminal programs do internally - that way you don't have to worry about loading two programs. Trust me, if there was an easier way to do what we're all doing, the problems would have been solved long ago. Aladdin would be working on the Falcon. In the case of Flash II, Atari sent our beta tester a rev 2 Falcon that still had the MFP chip in place for the serial port. He tested our current version of F2 on it and it worked perfectly. What should we have expected? That Atari was going to change the hardware on us WITHOUT EVER SAYING ONE WORD ABOUT IT? How would you feel going to WAACE last year, as a developer of a telecom program, thinking that your program worked on the "new" Falcon, only to find out AT THE SHOW that Atari changed the blasted hardware? There's plently of blame to pass around - Atari is defintely part of the blame here. They should have provided hooks into the SCC chip as they did for the MFP chip (yes, everything we do is complete legal based on Atari's original documentation - it just doesn't work on the Falcon anymore). They probably could have switched the hooks between the MFP and SCC chips with the Bconmap() call which is used to switch the serial stream into the other ports (and other software setup as well). If Atari had done that, no doubt none of the telecom programs would have broken. Most current developers of telecom software are working on making the changes. But it's been like pulling teeth out of an elephant to get that information. We did finally get pretty much all that we needed some time ago, (but it wasn't easy) and I thank Atari for that. The information should have been provided before the Falcon was released, though. Wilfred... >You tell things that are not true !! In the developer documentation >that came out with the rev. 2 Falcon's we stated that the 68901 will >be replaced by the SCC for FAST serial communications. That >documentation went ONLY out to developers that received a rev. 2 >Falcon030 and to nobody else. That was March- May 1992. In June 1992 >we held a developer comference in London for 105 european >developers. They received the rev.4 documentation and we discussed >most of the system. We introduced the machine in August 1992 in >Germany. From that date everybody could order the developer >documentation. You're a good guy Wilfred so I really don't want to bang on you about this, but... What the heck good does it do to send information to *ONLY* the developers that already have Falcons? What are the rest of us, sliced turkey? That's my major complaint here (and I discussed this in length with Bill Rehbock at WAACE last year, and beyond). As registered developers, all of us should have gotten that information immediately from Atari. If they'd be sending out regular dev. newsletters, perhaps the info would have gotten passed around. Heck, at the very least, the dev's using the serial ports in their programs should have gotten the information, or a phone call, or SOMETHING!. So, what Wayne said, to a certain extent at least, is ABSOLUTELY TRUE. It's really great that you held a dev conference for European developers and passed out that critical information. I applaud you for that. But again, what happened to us North American developers? As usual, we were left out in the cold. Sigh... True - my beta test who has a Falcon (and originally got a rev. 2) is using it for developing something other than a comm program. From what he told me, there was no documentation at all with the Falcon when he got it. I'm sure he would have passed along something as critical as a change in the serial port if he had seen that. Enough... John Trautschold Missionware Software ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 121 Mon Aug 09, 1993 TIMPURVES at 22:17 EST John Trautschold, I don't know whether I should welcome you to the club, or whether you should welcome me. I am getting sick and tired of taking the heat for this. -tim ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 122 Mon Aug 09, 1993 J.KRACHT [James Kracht] at 22:37 EDT Missionware: Are you the guys retooling CyberPaint for the Falcon? If so, any time frame? If not, "Er, oops. Sorry. I thought... nevermind." James ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 123 Tue Aug 10, 1993 K.RICHARD2 [Bondservant] at 00:01 EDT Tim Hi I am one of those new Falcon owner that dearly miss aladdin I hope to see the Falcon version soon but unlike some others I assume you and Genie are doing your best to meet that need asap unless there is a conspiracy against us falcon owners in that case never mind /s ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 124 Tue Aug 10, 1993 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 00:17 EDT FAIRWEATHER [David] Sorry, if I gave the wrong impression David. I didn't mean for anyone to shut up, well maybe me [grin]. Rather, that EMail works a lot better sometimes, IMHO. Of course, sometimes not. You are right that it wasn't coincident since I sent EMail after I saw your post, I believe. All I was trying to point out is that they (both sides) are aware of the problem and that they are trying to resolve it. Yep, I was also, indicating that it wasn't one-sided. Talking about it so much hasn't help, IMHO. No being quiet all the time isn't the answer but there is a limit. Re: blame. Alot being thrown around. Some I guess by me trying to show two sides to this situation. However, comments like "ball in ATARI court" or whatever, IMHO does indicate it is ATARI's fault. In this case, and far from every case, I disagree. I would say a communication problem. Please don't shut up and wait. Besides, you have your right to post. Rather sometimes, instead of posting, use EMail and post the results. You know, so and so said ... Then we get answers. Verbalizing ones feelings can be very beneficial from a psychosocial point-of- view and thus please do so. This is not sarcasms. I have already mention that I would be upset too if Aladdin didn't work on my computer. >I do beleive Tim is aware of the disatisfaction of Falcon owners >concerning Aladdin Heck if he doesn't then there is something wrong with his copy of Aladdin [grin]. Tim, Heat? I was only trying to indicate there is two sides to this debate and that neither side was totally wrong nor right. We should be working on solutions. ~~~~Brian ... Written on Tuesday 10 August 1993 at 00:13 a.m. ADT ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 125 Tue Aug 10, 1993 MUSE [Tomas] at 00:18 EDT Just a note about Desk Manager: It will indeed flip the Falcon into medium res (after the Fuji, memory test and AHDI), but that is about all it does at the moment. Desk Manager 3.3 cannot currently rename a file on the Falcon (?!). It should be easy to fix this once Charles returns from his travels. If it suits your need, try it. It can cause no harm. ===Tomas=== ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 126 Tue Aug 10, 1993 B.DEWITT [NerdPerfect] at 00:41 EDT Questions here: I have TOS 4.02 in my Falcon. How can I turn the internal speaker down/off on bootup? I have tried FBOOT and it doesn't work. I have tried the Sound CPX and it doesn't work. I have tried the General Setup CPX and it doesn't work. Does anything work (besides disconnecting it, that is)? I would like to have SAM do a greeting upon bootup, but the speaker is too dang loud! Also, is there any way to load AVR's recorded with SAM into D2D or MusicCom so that they can be manipulated with the special DSP effects? Also, is there any way to get the right microphone channel gain to work on an early Falcon (mine won't work and despite what the SAM manual says, the adjusting the left channel gain doesn't affect it, either)? As a result, I can only record in mono/single channel mode. Bob deWitt ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 127 Tue Aug 10, 1993 B.DEWITT [NerdPerfect] at 00:44 EDT Questions here: I have TOS 4.02 in my Falcon. How can I turn the internal speaker down/off on bootup? I have tried FBOOT and it doesn't work. I have tried the Sound CPX and it doesn't work. I have tried the General Setup CPX and it doesn't work. Does anything work (besides disconnecting it, that is)? I would like to have SAM do a greeting upon bootup, but the speaker is too dang loud! Also, is there any way to load AVR's recorded with SAM into D2D or MusicCom so that they can be manipulated with the special DSP effects? Also, is there any way to get the right microphone channel gain to work on an early Falcon (mine won't work and despite what the SAM manual says, the adjusting the left channel gain doesn't affect it, either)? As a result, I can only record in mono/single channel mode. Bob deWitt ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 128 Tue Aug 10, 1993 B.FREEMAN1 [BFREEMAN] at 00:58 EDT Eric Smith, Ok, I guess I'll have to wait on the vt52 fix. Thanks for the info on MultiTOS, I'll try my terminal with it. Aladdin lubbers, I think Aladdin is a great program, but couldn't the programmers change their code a little bit to get it to work on the Falcon. The Bco?() commands could be used for the serial i/o, and Rsconf() to set the port. These commands don't seem that slow or inefficent to me. For hanging up sending BYE and a carriage return will have GEnie drop carrier. I've been working on a terminal (F.M. Term) for the Falcon using these TOS commands and they seem pretty snappy to me. And as far as carrier detect goes, if data is coming in you must be connected.(grin) So what do you need c.d. for. I don't know a lot about flow control except that you can turn it off, its not needed for 2400 baud, and I thought rcs/cts was better than xon/xoff. This isn't meant to be an attack on the programmers of Aladdin, but I think crafty coders can get around almost all obstacles. -B.FreeMan ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 129 Tue Aug 10, 1993 J.KRACHT [James Kracht] at 01:48 EDT NerdPerfect: RE: Internal speaker. I use this little utility called SoundOff. It writes a bootsector to your floppy disk, that turns the speaker off instantly. I'll check the library and if it isn't there, I'll upload it. RE: Mono input. I had that same problem at first, and it was all due to the microphone. You have to make sure the stereo plug on it has TWO bands on it. Toward the end, that is. It needs to have TWO little black bands running all the way around it. If it doesn't, you're only going to get one channel. I went from a mono 1/4 plug, plugged a mono 1/4 to stereo 1/4 plug onto that, and then plugged a 1/4 stereo to mini stereo onto that. It was a little game for a while: "I can hook that microphone up in two adaptors." Remember, check your microphone first. If the plug has a single band on it, it's mono, and you need a mono to stereo adaptor. Radio Shack can help you out nicely. James ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 130 Tue Aug 10, 1993 R.WHITTAM [Ron - ABUG] at 01:56 EDT > Who owns the copyright on Aladdin? GEIS? Aladdin ST, v1.61 July 4 1993 Copyright (c) 1990, 1991 The General Electric Company All Rights Reserved ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 131 Tue Aug 10, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 06:37 EDT > Thunderbird, > > Actually, he had been fiddling with the NVRAM CPX, which set > his system to German without his knowledge. Works definately does > not play with NVRAM. > Actually, he was utilizing the highly useful NVRAM CPX until a lot of doomsayers scared the willies out of him about the alleged dangers of this CPX. Panic stricken, he made an error removing the CPX from his system, causing the difficulties reported. ;-) I can write a million AUTO folder programs which will kick the Falcon030 into just about any resolution I want. What I can't do is run them BEFORE the computer starts displaying it's memory test. If there is a way to permanently disable the bootup sequence, or load AUTO programs _before_ any text is displayed then I'm all ears. I'd love to know that there is a legal way to do it. ______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 132 Tue Aug 10, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 06:54 EDT Tim, The main thing is the need for Aladdin to work on the Falcon, no matter how you get it done, and we all appreciate the fact that you're trying to get this info from Atari. Maybe GEnie should pick up the bill for a Falcon, since Atari seems willing to sell you one (at, I expect, its cost). Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 133 Tue Aug 10, 1993 STEVE-J [Steve @ NLS] at 07:03 EDT FAIRWEATHER - Just because you saw action towards fixing Aladdin for the Falcon030 after your first complaint doesn't mean it was your complaint that started the ball rolling. That would be like me claiming Atari made the Falcon030 because of something I complained about years ago. Several people have been complaining about Aladdin not working on the Falcon030 but it's only been recently when a lot of people have actually been able to purchase Falcon030's, so there was a sizeable increase in complaints. As Tim said, even AFTER he gets all the information, it's still up to GEnie to decide whether to do it. And considering there aren't too many Falcon030's out there, GEnie could very well nix the idea...at least for now, until there are more Falcon030 users. J.TRAUTSCHOL - I thought it had been made prefectly clear by Atari that the serial data buffer was only 256 bytes to save users valuable RAM? Can you imagine the outcry if suddenly they decided to use a whole kilobyte??? B.FREEMAN1 - As has been mentioned, GEnie REQUIRES Aladdin to be programmed to a list of specifications (including, for example, using DCD for carrier detect). The programmer has no choice in the matter. Complain to GEnie about it (like complaining to THEM ever produces results!). ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 134 Tue Aug 10, 1993 TIMPURVES at 08:03 EST Al, It's not a question of buying a Falcon, I have written lot's of programs without ever seeing a machine, given documentation. When MichTron first started writting code for the Atari, we had _one_, and about 5 or 6 of us shared the machine. Given the documentation, the code will be developed, I can guarantte that with 99.9% accuracy, I will not give any timeframe. Look what would have happened, if I made a prediction based on what I was told. There is a ground swell movement of Falcon 030 users, and I am sure posted _one_ message here would result in several beta tester to pop up. And I would bet that Brian.H, and Daivd Fairweather, would be first in line, and make good beta tester. Sure Aladdin could be written, to ignore Carrier Detect, but it was designed to use it. It is available on the hardware, and makes for a better program. Aladdin needs xon/xoff flowcontrol for the GEnie network, and even more so, with changes in the future. Aladdin can not and will not use the current xon/xoff flow control supported by the _current_ OS. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 135 Tue Aug 10, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 10:23 EDT TIM To change the subject a bit, have you considered re-writing Aladdin to run in a window without hogging everything so as to make it Multitos and Geneva friendly? Is this a possibility at all? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 136 Tue Aug 10, 1993 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 12:11 EDT Al, >Maybe GEnie should pick up the bill for a Falcon, since Atari seems >willing to sell you one (at, I expect, its cost). ATARI is WILLING to lend him one if someone (in authority?) at GEnie will sign for it. Also, Mike Drysdale has offered to lend him one. However, Tim is totally right! He needs the docs not the machine. Also, the docs needs to be complete so that he can use them. I have no idea if they are or not. I am just stating the point. (Sorry, I have no EMail on this point of the docs being complete.) My thread all along was not to knock a great program but to clarify that the process wasn't all in ATARI's court. I hope this can now be dropped and I can go back to moving and reading messages. Tim, cannot be pressed for a timeframe. Look what that does to companies? One day, week, or whatever late and people are on their backs. Also, he is not programming for "himself" but for GEnie. Therefore, he has certain restraints on his coding. However, I am still hoping for the other ports to be supported. Also, I feel that ALADDIN IS the best program considering the need for it to be near idiot-proof. I was up and running the first day I was no GEnie. It is well written. Imagine the number of letters to FEEDBACK wanting reimbursement for online time if it cuts corners. Tim, thanks for the comment on beta testers! David >To change the subject a bit, Please not here. This topic is for the Falcon. I would suggest the MTOS of GEneva topic or the ALADDIN BBS. ~~~~Brian ... Written on Tuesday 10 August 1993 at 12:11 p.m. ADT ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 137 Tue Aug 10, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 13:07 EDT Bravo, John T. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 138 Tue Aug 10, 1993 D.MCNAMEE [Dan @ Atari] at 15:41 EST Thunderbird, There is a way to write a program that resides on the boot sector of a floppy that will abort the boot delay. There are several programs that do this, for example NoRoach. This is the only legal way that I am aware of. Dan ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 139 Tue Aug 10, 1993 E.WINDELL [GENE] at 21:04 EDT I am glad the Aladdin/Falcon issue has brought so many serial port programmers to the surface. It may be easier to get the Falcon OS to talk to a VCR than a modem. I hope some developers will visit the Desktop Video topic in Cat 7, Top 26. Gene ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 140 Tue Aug 10, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 21:18 EDT B.FREEMAN: Someone could write a very basic comm program using the OS calls in the Falcon030. ST Aladdin is very far from a basic comm program. It has to support things like 9600 baud, and Zmodem file transfers. Without support for these, it won't meet GEnie's specifications. ****** Here's a thought ***** Maybe someone could write an OS patch which had standardized assembly routines that fully support the SCC chip and 68901. It could hook itself into the OS at some point, and load from the AUTO folder. It would be fully documented, and _free_. Every communications program would be converted to support it fully. Then, if the hardware ever changes, a new patch program would be all anyone ever needed to get all his comm programs back up and running. If enough people used it, Atari might even think about coding the routines into the OS in a newer TOS. _________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 141 Tue Aug 10, 1993 J.TRAUTSCHOL [jtrautschold] at 21:40 EDT Tim Purves... Do to the fact that we're both after the same end result here, I think we've been a part of "the club" for quite some time now, and just didn't know! :-) I've basically kept quiet for a long time about all of this because we finally did get most of the information we needed. There have been a number of inaccuracies posted here and I felt another voice might help to clear things up. (Time for a beer... :-) ) James Kracht... Yup - we're the folks working on the Cyber Paint redo. The project is very close to completion, but is now being delayed slightly because the person doing the reprogramming got called out of town on a major programming contract job. As soon as he's finished, he'll be finishing up a version that'll work on everything up through and including the Falcon. BTW - he's the guy I was talking about that got a rev.2 Falcon where Flash II originally worked! ARGH!!! B.FREEMAN1... Sigh... Please go back and reread the last couple of weeks worth of messages. If changes were as easy as you postulated, they would have been made a loooonnnnng time ago. Trust me. There's much more to making a term program work than waiting for data to see if the modem connected and sending a "BYE" and hoping that the program logged off. STEVE-J... ! John T. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 142 Tue Aug 10, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:20 EDT Dan: That sounds good. Look for a F030 specific boot sector resolution changer program... coming soon to a GEnie node near you! ____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 143 Tue Aug 10, 1993 P-DIRECT2 [Tim @ TWP] at 23:59 EDT I would just like to make a few comments about the serial port problem. ANSITerm, interestingly enough, still works partially on the Falcon. Since Atari wasn't kind enough to supply facilities for handling the RS-232 signal lines (DCD, DTR, etc.), ANSITerm isn't able to hang up, send a break signal, or determine if your modem detects a carrier. These are not too annoying, except for the fact that all the information I have about using the Zilog chip did not strike me as particularly simple... OS calls would make things a lot easier. As for making ones own serial drivers, well, ANSITerm does... sortof. It leaves the ISR's alone entirely, but it has its own routines for getting bytes out of the input queue. In order to keep up with high-speed modems, I had to do two things. First, I installed my own 20k input queue. Second, I have 3 routines for handling serial I/O. One routine will tell me HOW MANY bytes are waiting in the input queue. The second will get one byte (faster than Bconin). The third is able to rapidly move up to 1k of data from the input queue and put that data into a buffer supplied by the calling routine, along with returning the number of bytes it retreived. I have found that, although Atari changed hardware, they did not change the way that Bconin, Bconstat, Bcostat, and Bconout access the input and output queues. I have been able to successfully create my own large input queue and read data in large chunks from it in a way that is also combatible with Bconin and Bconstat (ie. I can use my own routines and the BIOS routines interchangably and together in the same code and they will work properly). One thing that I didn't (and will not) do is put data into the OUTPUT queue directly. On the ST, I tried that, and realized that the Bconout turns the ISR back on for output. I didn't want to go throught the trouble of turning the ISR, and now, I know that that probably won't work on the Falcon. I am presently working on ANSI Link, a GEM-based terminal for the Falcon with a number of features that many will undoubtedly find to be most useful. If I am not able to get the necessary documentation to make the program communicate with the serial port, the program won't be released. I have some documentation, and if I am able to make heads or tails of it, I'll use it. BTW, even on an ST, it's able to keep up with full-tilt 19200, even while scrolling. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 144 Wed Aug 11, 1993 TIMPURVES at 00:09 EST D.ENGEL, I had tossed that idea around with another (ex?) Atari Developer the other day. I almost hate to say it but the Amiga version of Aladdin supports any serial device ever dreamed of (or yet to be dreamed of) Because the fundamental OS support has been there since day one. Amiga Aladdin _never_ touches the hardware directly. The Atari version, has to have serial support, video support, etc... -tim ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 145 Wed Aug 11, 1993 B.SUSLOVIC [Brad] at 00:30 EDT nerdperfect, upon quiting Audio Fun Machine, your given a few otptions. One of which is called sleep. When your editing sounds in SAM theres a checkbox called "DSP". With it ticked you can use the leftover effect from AFM. The DSP has some of its own onboard memory where it keeps these parameters. Serial Port People, Isn't there a topic in some other catagory for politics? I come to this topic in search of constructive HELP, not to sift through , and pay for opinion. B.Suslovic\ ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 146 Wed Aug 11, 1993 K.HOUSER [Kevin MQ Def] at 01:42 EDT T-Bird, RE: the PD or Free to share assembly routines that are documented... I had the same idea. And it is a good one. :) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 147 Wed Aug 11, 1993 B.STOREY [Billy B.] at 07:19 EDT Tim, I don't think anyone is mad at you for this problem. It is just that you are the source of our Aladdin, and we want it! I think Brian is wrong, in that a lot of noise hasn't helped things along. I think a lot of noise will be brought to the attention of the people who are responsible for the problems. If I do something and no one complains, I figure it is OK. If people complain, I change it. Even GEnie would listen if enough complaints began flowing in! ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 149 Wed Aug 11, 1993 TIMPURVES at 07:59 EST Billy, >> I think Brian is wrong, in that a lot of noise hasn't helped >> things along. I agree with you completly, however it hasn't fixed the problem yet, but it is moving (or so they tell me). On June 7, Bill Rehbock told me Mike Fulton would send me the information in a "week or two". On July 25, I sent mail to Bill Rehbock, cc'ed to Mike Fulton, asking about the status. Bill never replied. Mike wanted more information as he had heard nothing about it. On Aug 3, Mike informed me that he had dropped it in the mail. Today, Still waiting. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 150 Wed Aug 11, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 10:21 EDT I fixed my copy of Desk manager to work on my Mega STE with a Disk Editor. :- ) I renamed all occurances of DESKTOP.INF to NEWDESK.INF. Works like a charm. BFREEMAN, What if there is currently no data coming in like when you are at a prompt? There is no other way to detect if the the connection has been broken somehow other than Carrier Detect. In my BBS program, I depend on CD to let me know if carrier has been lost so that I know to close up the files and update info, etc. and go back to wait for a call. There will not always be data coming in. There are just times when you have to do things your own way to get the control that you need of a situation. It is just unavoidable. The TOS routines don't always give you the control you need. I know where Tim is coming from as I do a lot of telecom stuff in the BBS program. True, RTS/CTS is better but, only high speed modems or lower speed modems with data compression offer this option. There are still a lot of modems out there that do not use RTS/CTS. Also, a blast of line noise can cause you or the other end to receive a XOFF command. Crafty coders can get around almost all obstacle but, you first have to have the right information in order to do it. By GEnie requiring DCD, it keeps from having a load on the system if a user drops offline. If the system didn't know it, it would still try and send data to the user which would keep a load on the system therefore slowing it down more than it need be. It can also cause other problems. I know that if I try to send data out to a modem that is not online, it gets routed back to the computer and if the program is watching for incoming data at the same time, OUCH!!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 151 Wed Aug 11, 1993 JWEAVERJR [John@RSCARDS] at 12:01 EDT Not _quite_ "ex", Tim... ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 152 Wed Aug 11, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 16:36 EDT Doug, I like the idea of a patch program. Just call the thing and it tells you if you have CD, etc. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 153 Wed Aug 11, 1993 DMJ [dmj] at 19:11 EDT Thunderbird: - Maybe someone could write an OS patch which had standardized - assembly routines that fully support the SCC chip and 68901. Splendid idea--replace what Atari left out. Any volunteers? (I'd do it, but I've got thirteen million things to do. ) -dmj ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 154 Wed Aug 11, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 21:15 EDT Tim, Kevin: Now that we all agree that there should be documented free/share serial I/O routines, how do we proceed? My guess would be to start a specification, and get some feedback on it. ________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 155 Wed Aug 11, 1993 P-DIRECT2 [Tim @ TWP] at 21:33 EDT On the subject of the Zilog SCC chip in the Falcon: A co-worker of mine at Group Technologies is an expert at programming the SCC. According to him, this chip is absolutely amazing... not only does it do asynchronous and synchronous at high rates very well, but it ALSO goes HDLC and SDLC, which are the link-level protocols used by X.25. In essence, you could to TCP/IP directly from the Falcon's serial port. Kind of impressive, neh? But here's the funny thing. It's an amazingly powerful chip, but it would seem that whoever designed it had been irritated by one too many software techs, and decided that this would a good way to get back at them. Doing some of the simplest things can be a pain in the neck. For example, to if you want to set baud rate, you can't simply put the timer value in to the correct register... in fact, there are quite a number of things that you can't just set. For many things, you have to reset the chip. There is a FIFTEEN step process that one must go through, one of which is setting the baud rate. Once he finds some time to get away from his busy schedule, he and I plan to write a text file detailing what one must do to perform most common operations on the SCC. He will provide the technical knowlege of how to operate the chip, while I will supply 68000 assembly source that performs those operations. There is one crutial piece of knowlege that we need in order to know how to set the baud rate on the SCC. There is a formula for calculating what value(s) must be put into the register(s) in the SCC for controlling the baud rate, but one parameter of that formula is the clock rate that is being fed into the chip. If anyone knows what clock rate is being fed into the SCC USART in the Falcon, we MUST know. Please tell us. Timothy Miller Two Worlds Publishing p.s. HEY! I know... I'll publish it as an article in Processor Direct... what do you think? (Don't worry, Tim, I'll give you the information ahead of time so you can finish Alladin) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 156 Wed Aug 11, 1993 TIMPURVES at 21:50 EST Thunderbird, I have a set function specifications that I use in all my communications programs, and for each operating system I provide the glue interface functions. This could be a good start. The advantage to this approach is that, the application code is written to one API, independent of the operating system. However I am going to hold off until Atari sends me some documentation, one would hope that MultiTos addresses this, otherwise how would multiple communications programs coexist? I am looking forward to receiving the documentation, and I am really wondering about it's depth, or lack thereof. -tim ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 157 Wed Aug 11, 1993 M.HILL13 [Mike] at 22:49 EDT Wayne, What do you mean by Genie requiring DCD? Im assuming you mean Aladdin correct? Well it doesn't really require it. Many people have modems that always leave DCD active (or whatever you want to call the state that says a Carrier is there), or most allow this setting with a simple AT command. Aladdin uses this signal to determine if it is logged onto Genie already. I know this for a fact since before when I had an old 2400 baud modem it wouldn't report a DCD. Aladdin would work, but I would have to log on manually (couldn't use the Log on because it thought it was online). So I would do an ATD XXX-XXXX and log in then do an autopass. Now if your reffering to Genie requiring DCD on the modem that it is connected to, then the Aladdin discussion is moot, since the modem at the dial-in node the user is calling supports DCD for Genie, but that doesn't mean the user has to have a modem that supports DCD. You seem to be confusing this issue slightly. Now I guess we could say this. IF (and I do mean if) Aladdin used straight OS calls for the serial ports (Bcon routines) and talked to the hardware for DTR and checking DCD. It would work in a limited fashion. You would have to manually log on and Aladdin wouldn't be able to Drop DTR, send a break signal (an actual modem break signal, not the CTRL C break). Tim used his own routines for the serial buffers because of limitations in Atari's routines that would hinder Aladdin. Tim would have had to go to the hardware regardless for the other stuff mentioned. Just like Tim will go to the hardware for the Zilog chip on the Falcon. Mike ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 158 Wed Aug 11, 1993 B.FREEMAN1 [BFREEMAN] at 23:45 EDT Thunderbird, The os can handle up to 19200 baud and zmodem doesn't need to write to the hardware to work, xyz.ttp works fine on a Falcon. A very good terminal can be written with os calls. There is a patch like your talking about already, its call the os. (grin) Atari has to change the os each time they change the hardware in their computers. The serial port calls that used the old chip on the st had to modified in the Falcon so they would work with the new chip. So, old terminals made on an st that used the os calls will work on the Falcon because the calls are still there, but have been modified to work on the Falcons new serial chip. Now a patch for hangup and carrier detect would be nice for people who think they need'em.(hehe) Steve-J, My message was toward the 1,2,3,4, problems that were listed in a previous message. I believe I know what it takes to make a term program work since I've programmed my own that works perfectly fine on my Falcon. Its GEnie's job to log you off when you enter "BYE" and hit return. I always find it strange that most terminals include a hangup option. Most BBS sysops go on the warpath if you use it on their BBS. And of course the greatest reason of all not to have a hangup option is that when you access the hardware directly, it will break when the hardware is upgraded. If there ever comes a time when you simply have to drop carrier you can always flip the modem on/off switch.(grin) Stalker buffer, Someone wrote a message about having to use a auto program to change the size of the serial buffer when using Stalker. I believe it has to be this way because Stalker can run as a desk accessory and da's shouldn't grab up memory. Its easy to change the serial buffer size with a few os calls and little code but it shouldn't be done by a da. Wayne Watson, I belive Genie will drop carrier after thirty second or so if no data is received. As far as your BBS something like that would work, st-keep bbs does this too. Like I said in my previous message I don't know much about flow control, and I've never used XON/XOFF so I don't see it as a problem. Your modems supposed to echo characters back, heck if it didn't you wouldn't get to see the characters you typed. And if it bugs you, send that good old ATE0 command to your modem and turn that darn echo off.(grin) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 159 Wed Aug 11, 1993 R.HOEKSTRA1 [RandyH] at 23:47 EDT I have seen a lot of discussion about enhancements for the software that came with my Falcon (Works & MTOS in particular), needed, being work, planned, etc. I was just wondering what the plan is to get updates out to the users. I am sure I will hear about it as long as I stay in touch with GEnie, but what about those isolated users without modems? I only ask because I have been using Atari computers since 1980 and have always sent in my registration cards, but I can't remember ever once getting anything from Atari on upgrades or new products or anything. Just wondering if this was going to change with the Falcon. RandyH PS - I have gotten several mailings from Atari in the last 6 months after buying a LYNX, so I know they know how to do it. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 160 Wed Aug 11, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:50 EDT Tim: Around August 23rd I requested via GEmail information on becoming a registered Atari developer from Mike Fulton. He replied quickly and answered all my questions in mail. When I said I would like to sign up, he told me that he would send me a 'Developer Registration Kit' in the mail, and I gave him my address. I am still waiting for it. I don't want to be a pest, so I'm going to wait a while longer before I start asking where it is. It sounds to me a lot like they have little time to spare sending out stuff to everyone with a question, or maybe their shipping department is sluggish. __________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 161 Thu Aug 12, 1993 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 00:10 EDT TBIRD< Yes, pester Mike {pest your word and thus not meant as an insult}. The two deveolpers direct contacts ARE MIKE-FULTON AND J.PATTON. Period. No one else. I agree with the spare time comment but a reminder should/could do the trick. ~~~~Brian ... Written on Thursday 12 August 1993 at 01:09 a.m. ADT ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 164 Thu Aug 12, 1993 ATARI.BENLUX [W. Kilwinger] at 02:19 EDT Thunderbird: > > - Maybe someone could write an OS patch which had standardized > - assembly routines that fully support the SCC chip and 68901. Somebody in germany did, it's called XSDD (extended serial device driver). Unfortually he didn't write English documentation. I will tell him that if he realy wants to set a standard he has to document in English. TIM @ TWP: There is more you should know for your SCC article like the addresses of the SCC and the place were are stores its Interrupt Vectors. Here we go: * The SCC in the Falcon030, TT and Mega STE is mapped on: * * SCC MEMORY MAP: * --------------- * SCC Channel A Control $FF8C81 (all are 1 byte long) * SCC Channel A Data $FF8C83 * SCC Channel B Control $FF8C85 * SCC Channel B Data $FF8C87 * * Note that in the TT documentation this is documented as $FF8C80 OB. * OB stands for Odd Byte. The TT manual assumes WORD access. I found * that BYTE access to $FF8C80 and $FF8C81 are mapped to the same SCC * address, so are $82 and $83, $84 and $85, $86 and $87. But don't * count on that !!! * * SCC Channel A & Channel B are used in the following way on different * machines: * * SCC Channel A: TT030 Serial 2 / LAN, * Mega STE Serial 2 / LAN, * Falcon030 LAN * * SCC Channel B: TT030 Modem 2 * Mega STE Modem 2 * Falcon030 Modem * The SCC interrupt vectors start at address 0x180. It seems that there are 16 vectors starting there, but only even numbered ones are used; the SCC port B vectors are first, followed by the SCC port A vectors. The PCLK (23) input into the SCC is rated at 8MHz. The RTXCA (13) and RTXCB (32) input is provided with a 3.672 MHz clock. The TRXCA (15) input comes from the LAN connector and the TRXCB (30) input is rated at 2.4576 MHz. Thunderbird: I'm sorry but you could reach Mike by email once and now you are waiting almost a year for the kit. You couldn't email a reminder in between ?? Regards, Wilfred ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 165 Thu Aug 12, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 05:54 EDT B.Freeman: You are making too many assumptions in your deductions regarding the viability of TOS to handle the Serial ports properly. > The os can handle up to 19200 baud and zmodem doesn't need > to write to the hardware to work What if I want to use speeds _faster_ than 19,200??? The SCC chip supports speeds almost 10 times that fast. The OS falls flat on it's face in this regard. Some people actually _need_ other speeds, y'know. > xyz.ttp works fine on a Falcon. I suppose you're using a 9,600 baud modem or less? If the handshaking is not functioning, it will not work. Even at 9,600, you're probably getting error frames which are retransmitted and succeed on the retry. > ...a patch like your talking about already, its call (sic) the os. > Atari has to change the os each time they change the hardware in > their computers. No, it's called "FPATCH.PRG" or something like that, and it comes from Atari... while FPATCH doesn't add the required support for things like DCD and higher speeds, it _does_ fix some bugs in the serial comm routines in TOS. I believe it fixed hardware handshaking which screwed up fast ZMODEM transfers (among other things), but I could have heard wrong. > Now a patch for hangup and carrier detect would be nice for people > who think they need'em.(hehe) I am really quite amazed that someone would actually maintain the belief that a homebrew terminal program which kludges it's way around the lack of complete OS routines is evidence that programmers should not have gone to the hardware. Maybe you should try to turn your homemade terminal into the first Falcon030 BBS program. Then you can try to explain to your customers that any user who gets knocked off the line by line noise must call back immediately, because your BBS can't tell that the carrier dropped and the next caller that connects will resume at the point where the previous one left off (like entering private e-mail, or performing remote sysop functions). Of course you'll solve that problem easily too... your BBS will watch the incoming data stream for the words "RING" or "CONNECT" or "NO CARRIER" and use that to determine if a user lost connection. You'll just have to post a log-in message warning the users not to type any messages, or upload any files with those words in them, or they will be returned to the login prompt. I'm almost afraid to ask, but I can't help but wonder if you're an employee of the Microsoft Windows or DOS development teams? _____________________ \hunderbird 'cause a clever programmer can kludge up a workaround for anything... ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 166 Thu Aug 12, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 18:40 EDT The OS patch sounds like a good program for the CodeHeads. I would see the Carrier Detect call as returning which ports it detects CD on using bit patterns. Use a 16bit word. Bit 0 = Port 1 (standard ST port), Bit 2, Modem 2, etc. Tim, don't forget that the MSTE and TT also uses the SCC chip so you should get the clock rate for those computers also. I also hang up the user after a Sysop configurable amount of time but, I also need to know when the user has dropped carrier. There was a progam that did some test on the SCC and reported the speeds (clock). I believe I got it off of GEnie since that is wehre the majority of my files come from. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 167 Thu Aug 12, 1993 P-DIRECT2 [Tim @ TWP] at 20:30 EDT Before I log off and read all these new messages (BTW, I don't use Alladin... never got it), I would like to point out that I made an error in my last message... X.25 is the link-level protocol. HDLC and SDLC are the hardware level. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 168 Thu Aug 12, 1993 P-DIRECT2 [Tim @ TWP] at 20:52 EDT David Kessler (the SCC Z8530 expert) and I plan to write an article detailing the chip and how to use it on the Falcon that we will publish in the first issue of Processor Direct magazine. There will be interesting background information about the power and uses of the chip, as well as 68000 asm code examples that actually perform common operations such as setting baud rate, setting/resetting DTR, checking DCD, and checking IR. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 169 Thu Aug 12, 1993 P-DIRECT2 [Tim @ TWP] at 20:53 EDT Oh, and BTW, W. Kilwinger, thanks for that information on the SCC. That's exactly what Dave and I needed. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 170 Thu Aug 12, 1993 MIKE-ALLEN [NM~SysOp] at 21:58 EDT Tims, You are right! The 'discussions' here prompted me to pull out my Zilog Datacom ICs book on the Z85C30 - It certainly is a 'do-all' chip. (Take a look at the Z85C80 - a Z85C30 + a Z53C80 SCSI controller in 1 chip). One of the things that appealed to me was the HDLC capability - Seems like I could make my MSTe + Modem act like a TNC (terminal node controller) for Amateur Radio Packet radio - if I knew what I was doing! More digging to do. Started digging into my Trusty MSTe. I couldn't understand why the DSR and CTS was missing from Modem 2 port. Ya know what? I don't think they really are missing. Could it be that Atari disabled them in the OS? Still more digging to do. One of the really bothersome things about the massive shrinking of the Atari marketplace is that there are no longer 3rd parties publishing tech info about the newer machines, ala Abacus for example. We folk who like to 'hack' our Ataris are now almost completely at the mercy of Atari for tech info - hardware and OS. Yeah, I know, I could buy a developers kit. Probably will sometime. Wish it were a little more reasonably priced. Maybe Atari will take a hint from IBM who published all the docs and developers tools for OS/2 2.x on a CD for $15. Anyway, probing the Z85C30 has got me interested. Thanks to all the smart folks who keep dumping interesting tid-bits of information here. Mike Allen ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 171 Thu Aug 12, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:31 EDT Tim Purves: Whoops... that was a typo. I meant to say JULY 23rd. But even _that_ is wrong... I just checked my records, and it was the 13th of July, 1993 that I contacted him. I've been writing too many checks recently, and have "August" ingrained on my brain, or something. Sorry about the confusion. ____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 172 Fri Aug 13, 1993 V.VALENTI at 00:09 EDT Hello, If you have a program on the Atari that uses an OS call to send/recieve a byte through the modem port, is that call supported on the Falcon with- out modification? Vince ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 173 Fri Aug 13, 1993 R.THUROW [Rich] at 03:39 EDT Re the Aladdin scenario: Just my .02. Until I hear Aladdin works, I will not buy a Falcon. Y'all need to quit yappin and get it done! ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 174 Fri Aug 13, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 04:36 EDT Tim, You really should try Aladdin out. Once you use it, you may never want to go back to the manual way of doing it. :-) I cringe at even the tought of having to use GEnie manually again. I hope someone will convert the routines to C. I can speak only a tiny bit of assembly. It would be like writing the article in German. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 175 Fri Aug 13, 1993 STEVE-J [Steve @ NLS] at 05:19 EDT DMJ - Heck! Maybe someone should completely rewrite TOS so that it's compatible with existing versions AND is more efficient as well? M.HILL13 - We're not saying that Aladdin requires DCD or that GEnie requires DCD on the modem. GEnie's 'Aladdin programming guidelines' REQUIRE the Aladdin programmers to program Aladdin to use DCD. D.ENGEL - First of all, Mike Fulton isn't who you should go through to get developer information -- hopefully, he's busy doing more important things! For TOS developer registration information, you should call Atari and ask for Gail Bacani. That's what I did back in early February '93 and I received a package from Atari 3 days later (CA to GA, so it was sent out immediately upon request!). BRIAN.H - I thought they were direct contacts for EXISTING developers, not prospective ones? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 176 Fri Aug 13, 1993 ICDINC at 12:02 EDT Steve and D.ENGEL, Mike Fulton is the right guy. Gail Bacani doesn't work at Atari anymore. - TOM - ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 177 Fri Aug 13, 1993 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 17:05 EDT Steve, Tom is right. Contact either MIKE-FULTON or ATARIDEV. ~~~~Brian ... Written on Friday 13 August 1993 at 05:21 p.m. ADT ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 178 Fri Aug 13, 1993 P-DIRECT2 [Tim @ TWP] at 18:53 EDT Wayne Watson, I actually hadn't thought of providing C source to perform the functions needed for the SCC. Probably because it would be quite a bit more difficult. Something simple like: move.b D0, $FF8C81.L would become: *((char *)0xFF8C81L) = value; which to me looks a bit messy. This is just one example of the kind of things that would need to be done. Just imagine this: MOVEP.L D0, $FF8C81.L couldn't be done in C, and would have to be implemented as: *((char *)0xFF8C81L) = value>>24; *((char *)0xFF8C83L) = value>>16; *((char *)0xFF8C85L) = value>>8; *((char *)0xFF8C87L) = value; This would dramatically reduce readability and efficiency. Efficiency isn't so important with something this small and so infrequently used compared to most modem operations, but the code would become a total mess. If there is a demand for it, I could rewrite the code in C, but most C compilers come with inline assemblers anyway. BTW, someone tell me if I'm writing those bytes in the right order. :) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 180 Fri Aug 13, 1993 D.MCNAMEE [Dan @ Atari] at 19:51 EST Vince, -> If you have a program on the Atari that uses an OS call to <- -> send/recieve a byte through the modem port, is that call <- -> supported on the Falcon with- out modification? <- Yes. Dan ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 181 Fri Aug 13, 1993 R.HOEKSTRA1 [RandyH] at 22:11 EDT All, I tried getting developer info from Mike Fulton via email over a month ago (with a follow-up reminder) and never got anything. On a hint from Nathan Potechin in another catagory, I called Bill Rehbock this past Monday and received the info today! Try calling him at (408) 745-2082. It worked for me. RandyH ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 182 Fri Aug 13, 1993 DMJ [dmj] at 23:17 EDT Steve: - Heck! Maybe someone should completely rewrite TOS so that it's - compatible with existing versions AND is more efficient as well? What a splendid idea. Are you volunteering? But seriously. Most of TOS is pretty good. The point here is that the serial support is lacking. And adding a few system calls to TOS isn't a new concept; as a recent example, Dan Wilga's CJARxxx program provides cookie jar services-- again, something Atari didn't include. I'm not suggesting all of TOS should be replaced, just that where it's "missing" a few pieces, someone should fill them in! And soon, so we can all use the same extensions. -dmj ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 183 Sat Aug 14, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 00:15 EDT I can understand that. I kinda forgot about just putting the code in Lattice C or HS Pascal and just compiling and using it from there. It'll work the same, just place it in a routine and call it. Ok, so nevermind about C code. Hey, I will take the info anyway I can get it. :-) Thanks. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 185 Sat Aug 14, 1993 C.CASSADAY [Chris C.] at 22:43 EDT > >Thunderbird, > > There is a way to write a program that resides on the > boot sector of a floppy that will abort the boot delay. There are > several programs that do this, for example NoRoach. This is the > only legal way that I am aware of. > > Dan Onl ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 187 Sat Aug 14, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:45 EDT DMJ: With programs like Warp 9 and G+ and NVDI replacing the VDI, and with Geneva replacing the AES, and NeoDesk replacing the desktop, the only thing that hasn't been duplicated by a third party is the BIOS portion of the ROMS. Out of all the parts of the ROM to clone, the BIOS is probably the easiest. Dan Wilga and the Codeheads ought to get together with Dave Small or Jim Allen and make an ST Clone with all this nifty software. ______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 188 Sat Aug 14, 1993 B.FREEMAN1 [BFREEMAN] at 23:45 EDT Thunderbird, My first message was about the four problems with aladdin listed in a previous message and now somehow you've switched it over to bbs's and other stuff. You seem to be going off in various directions and drawing strange conclusions from my replies to your remarks. I'm not an expert on every type of program that uses the serial ports and you don't seem to be very friendly so this will be my last reply about this. >I suppose you're using a 9,600 baud modem or less? If the handshaking is >not functioning, it will not work. Even at 9,600, you're probably getting >error frames Nope, I'm using my nice fast twincom 14.4 and the handshaking works great on my Falcon. If your looking for a patch to get higher baud rates, check out Fserial.prg. Its a german program that works on a megaste, or tt and modifies Rsconf() to get faster baud rates. It may work on a Falcon but I haven't tested it. The docs for it are all in german. >No, it's called "FPATCH.PRG"...I belive it fixed hardware handshaking which >screwed up fast ZMODEM transfers(among other things), but I could have >heard wrong. Gee, I heard it only fixes bconmap() so you can access the lan port and something to do with the internal squeaker. >>>Now a patch for hangup and carrier detect would be nice for people who >>>think they need'em.(hehe) You quoted this out of my previous message. Have you ever heard of a joke!!! ->(hehe)<- means I'm laughing. >I am really quite amazed that someone would actually maintain the belief >that a homebrew terminal program which kludges it's way around the lack of >complete OS routines is evidence that programmers should not have gone to >the hardware. Now this statement looks like a personal attack to me, since you've never even seen my terminal program. Fact: if aladdin had used the perfectly fine os serial routines it would work on my Falcon now. Programmers can go to the hardware all they want, but if they do, they should realize their code is going to break on new machines with new hardware and they shouldn't come crying to me. If you want to send me personal attacks do it in email not in this message base. >All your BBS crapola.... How we've gotten to writting BBS's from my first message about aladdin I'll never know. I try to answer all questions and silly remarks sent to me. Like, "Only a basic terminal can be made with the OS calls". But I'm done with you, and your attitude. I suggest you go on a vacation, learn what a joke is, and find yourself a smile. Then if you send me a friendly message mabye I'll take you out of my twit filter. But until then all future messages from you will be ignored. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 189 Sun Aug 15, 1993 B.DEWITT [NerdPerfect] at 00:16 EDT I'm still having troubles getting a floptical to run on the Falcon using Atari's HD utilities. Has anyone else been able to get one to run? I know the answer is: forget about Atari's software and use ICD's PRO software (the update for which I have sent for); but since the latest version of Atari's HD utilities specifically says it allows the use of flopticals, it just bugs me that it doesn't (plus, I currently have it in my possession, and I don't have the ICD software yet). I am using a Purple Mountain floptical, with the ID set to 0. This works fine with my Mega, but when I try to access the floptical with the Falcon using Atari HDX (even with the partitions set to the Atari standard) the software will recognize that a floptical is connected (as indicated on the bootup screen), then the floptical goes through about four or five cycles of checking/initializing the drive (moving the head around, sounds like), then the DeskTop comes up as usual. However, when the floptical is requested through its DeskTop icon, it chugs through three or four cycles of moving the head around again (sounds like), then an alert box comes up that says "YOUR OUTPUT DEVICE IS NOT RECEIVING DATA"; and that's it. So, what gives, Atari? Does your HDX software work with a floptical or not (and if not, why do the DOCs say that it does)? Like I said, the floptical DOES work on my Mega (using a Link and appropriate ICD Link software). This is getting me very frustrated (and I don't need any more frustration than I alread have....). Can anyone give me any advice here? Frustrated in Orem, Bob deWitt ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 190 Sun Aug 15, 1993 STEVE-J [Steve @ NLS] at 04:40 EDT BRIAN.H - You don't know what "Onl" means? Where have YOU been??? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 191 Sun Aug 15, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 09:50 EDT B. Freeman: I've had it up to here with your attitude. If you think you can go around wallowing in your awesome programming prowess because you claim you wrote a basic terminal program that you say works properly, while belittling fine programmers like Tim, you are not welcome here. Your obnoxious boasting about the functionality of your alleged terminal program was tiresome and redundant the _first_ time you wrote it. Why do you insist on slamming Aladdin/Tim and other programs and programmers because they go to the hardware? Your arrogant little innuendos about 'crying to you' because they don't use the 'perfectly fine' OS routines is incredible! Nobody came 'crying' to you! You seized the opportunity to butt into this thread so that your could pretend to be an expert programmer, and prove it through falsehoods, myths, and belittling others. You stand up on your soapbox all high and mighty, casting aspersions upon any programmer who 'goes to the hardware' instead of the OS, and then have the audacity to question WHY I asked you to write a BBS without going to the hardware!!!! If you had even the slightest bit of knowledge pertaining to programming Atari computers for serial communications, you would know exactly WHY you need to go to the hardware. It has been said so many times already, but maybe you missed it: Carrier Detect "DCD" is -----> NOT AVAILABLE <----- to programmers through _any_ OS routine, or any 'perfectly fine' OS routine eother! Now, if you knew _anything at all_ about telecommunications and programming, you would already _know_ WHY you NEED carrier detect. Just because your alleged program allegedly works on a Falcon030, is certainly insufficent evidence that the OS routines are capable of anything at all. If you think you can wheedle you way out of this hole you dug yourself into by pretending you were only kidding, you'd better think again. You've made some very insulting remarks, and infuriated more than a few people with your incessant bragging. This may, or may not be my last post to you regarding this matter, pending your formal apology. __________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 192 Sun Aug 15, 1993 ARCHIVIST [Charlie] at 15:21 EDT NerdPerfect, about the only thing I can think of is the cable. I recall someone else had trouble connecting a Falcon to a SCSI hard drive because of some small incompatability in the cable, so perhaps this is your problem as well. It does seem as if the Atari HDX is recognising the floptical, but the system can't read/write to it. This is just a shot in the dark on my part as I really don't understand what differences there may be. Hopefully someone more informed on hardware will pop by to help you. In the meantime, are you sure you have the correct cable? Charlie/sysop ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 193 Sun Aug 15, 1993 B.SUSLOVIC [Brad] at 19:56 EDT Nerdperfect, Have you edited the WINCAP file so that HDX can get the parameters it needs to format your floptical? I believe there are instructions within it on how to. B.Suslovic ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 194 Sun Aug 15, 1993 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 21:02 EDT Would it be possible for people to assume that they are responding to organisms of the same specie? Comon! How can we have peace in our time with this going on? TBIRD - re:twit. I just read it. I saw your response. However, you are within your rights to have it removed. Normally, I would remove it immediately but the "damage" is done by the time I read it. Please everyone, we are not in his for abuse but arguments/discussions. Me think too many people are watching Monty Python while writing messages. Could we all try to be a tiny bit more civil? I know you may not want to but I really want to sleep without nightmares of people attacking me through the computer. ~~~~Brian ... Written on Sunday 15 August 1993 at 09:38 p.m. ADT ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 195 Sun Aug 15, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 23:26 EDT Bob De Witt, I had similar problems using Atari's latest HDX with my PLI Floptical. Although my problems weren't _quite_ as bad as yours, in that about 75% of the time the floptical was recognized ok. But that 25% failure rate was enough to make me switch to ICD. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Someone else mentioned possible SCSI cable problems. Those little pins in the end of the SCSI cable that plugs into the Falcon can be very easily bent. I've done it accidently enough that I avoid unplugging that cable now unless absolutely necessary. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 196 Mon Aug 16, 1993 R.HOEKSTRA1 [RandyH] at 00:24 EDT Just to get things back on topic - I need some help with a few questions. I finally picked up a microphone and stero connector so I can record some stuff on the Falcon. AFM and SAM are pretty neat and though they may not be as feature ladden as possible, they are quite adequate to handle the basics (are there any other DSP modules floating around for AFM?) I am, however, now realizing that this audio stuff really takes up memory. I wanted to record a small sample to play on start up, but I have found some problems with this plan. First, a decent sample takes up a lot of RAM and if this is done with SAM, even the startup sound is left in memory for the duration. I don't need to waste this kind of RAM. Another problem with this is that the machine boots up full volume and the sample comes blasting out my poor little speakers. A short bit into the sample, the control panel loads and cuts back the volume to normal (I do like how it starts the sound playing and continues to finish booting). So I removed the startup sound from SAM. I know there is an AUTO program to turn the speaker off, but I don't want it completely off, just set to the correct volume before SAM does its thing. If it can be turned off, couldn't the volume be adjusted, or are these two different operations? Anybody with Falcon info that could code this up real quick? I also played a bit with a program called Fortune as an alternative for a startup sound. It works okay 'cause it runs after the control panel, but it runs as an application and nothing else happens while it is playing. It also turns the screen a sickly green, like the default on the old ST. So, are there any Falcon programmers who can write an AUTO program to set the volume correctly AND start a sample playing AND let the machine finish booting while the sample is playing? I guess this would be my ideal choice for a startup sound. That's not too much to ask is it? If I had some Falcon documentation I might even try it myself - maybe someday. Speaking of SAM, is it not possible to run the mic out through the speakers and have SAM interrupt this just enough to play its system sound and then put it back the way it was. I want to run the cd player through the same speakers. I used WINREC to get the sound playing and with SAM disabled and it continues to play after I quit and even if I run other programs. With SAM enabled, as soon as the first system sound plays, my cd music is gone! It also works to have MTOS running and just leave WINREC in memory, but then again, I can't get same to work at all with MTOS. Does anyone, in fact, have SAM working with MTOS? I mean playing the system sounds, not just being able to call up the ACC and use it. Thanks, RandyH ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 197 Mon Aug 16, 1993 S.FARWIG [STAN] at 02:22 EDT David: Thanks for the tip on UNISPEC, but I've used it since the day it came out. My reference to SPECTRUM in the message to Dan@Atari was made because SPECTRUM, not UNISPEC, was the program Atari told them not to do. Think we'll have its equal on the FALCON someday soon? Couldn't tell too much from the ARTIS demo, but I kind of shy away from paint programs that are filled with all sorts of bells and whistles I don't really need until I know how they're going to handle color manipulation, dithering etc. My impression remains that a lot of people thought SPECTRUM sole accomplishment was in displaying 512 colors. Re: NVRAM. I still don't understand the complaint that the Falcon boots in low rez and looks like hell. my best Stan ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 199 Mon Aug 16, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 10:07 EDT Stan, SKWebb's SEURAT 3.0 sounds like it may be what we're all waiting for. He left an update message today over in the Paint Programs topic that said it should be ready sometime in October. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 200 Mon Aug 16, 1993 R.NELSON48 [Grouch (:{] at 10:39 EDT NerdPerfect - I used my Floptical just for a day or two with Atari's HD utilities but changed everything over to ICD's PRO once I got it. The only thing I can remember that might be of help to you is that you must install a BOOTABLE partition if you plan to use the floptical as your boot drive. Somehow that doesn't sound like your problem. Are you running the floptical through the link and DMA port or going stright SCSI? =-= Grouch (:{ =-= ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 201 Sun Aug 15, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] (Forwarded) Ron - ABUG: Many of the OS hooks employed by Microsoft _were_ documented as 'reserved' and/or 'undocumented', so therefore the circumstances are identical, rather then the diametrically opposing yarn you just spun. But then, I really shouldn't be correcting you here. Forget what I just said. It's probably just my swelled ego relishing the fact that you made a fatal error in your research. ______________________ \hunderbird 'cause sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 202 Sun Aug 15, 1993 G.MON [Gerry] (Forwarded) Thunderbird: I think you need to reread what Ron - ABUG wrote. His main point was that the main complaint against Microsoft was that they used those undocumented/reserved routines to gain an unfair advantage in their application software. To my knowledge, Atari has not released any application software that uses NVAM for an unfair advantage. This is how I see the situation: Atari developed NVAM for internal purposes. They wanted an easy way for them to configure their machines for different countries/markets. Instead of having to produce different language versions of their ROMs, they could just make one version (thus saving money) which contains all the languages and then configure the machine at the factory with NVAM. That's all NVAM was really designed for. Atari doesn't want to document NVAM because it could easily change at any time. NVAM was probably quickly put together and Atari doesn't want to set anything in stone by documenting it. You don't want to add "quickly thought up features" to an OS and then setting it in stone. You might end up regretting it at a later time. Finally, I think it's perfectly reasonable for Atari to issue a warning against the use of NVAM.CPX. It is a dangerous program for a lot of users out there. Atari has already seen cases where a machine has been made unbootable because of it. You might say that those users with TOS 4.04 can safely use it but I've seen a lot of people out there who don't even know how to determine which TOS version they have! --Gerry ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 203 Mon Aug 16, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] (Forwarded) Gerry: I don't dispute that Atari hasn't used undocumented features to their own advantage like Microsoft did. I only pointed out that reserving things by not documenting them is seen in a bad light these days. If something shoudln't be messed with, the documentation should not be: NVRAM Addresses $00-$FF: RESERVED, PROPRIETARY INFORMATION. but rather: NVRAM Address $00 - Boot Resolution (DO NOT USE, WILL CHANGE IN FUTURE) $01 - Keyboard Language (DO NOT USE, WILL CHANGE IN FUTURE) $02 - DeskTop Language (DO NOT USE, WILL CHANGE IN FUTURE) $03 - etc. etc. etc. By the way, NVRAM wasn't a hastily thrown together idea, since it was over a year ago that Atari spokesmen were touting the Configurable NVRAM as a "Feature" of the machine. My problem is the fact that people might buy a F030 expecting to be able to use that feature, only yo find out they can't. If they said it included a mouse, but when you opened the box and there was no mouse, only a warning _never_ to connect a mouse to it, you'd be upset too... ________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 204 Mon Aug 16, 1993 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 19:17 EDT the last three messages here is the continuation of a discussion from the AW topic on NVRAM. ~~~~Brian ... Written on Monday 16 August 1993 at 08:16 p.m. ADT ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 205 Mon Aug 16, 1993 J.KRACHT [James Kracht] at 21:46 EDT RandyH: You might get ahold of Sinister Development's F-BOOT utility (in the library, I believe) to set your Falcon's volume from a boot sector on the floppy disk. It's the first thing that will happen -- the volume will be set even before the memory test. That should do the trick, I hope. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 206 Mon Aug 16, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:34 EDT Brian: If someone is ignorant enough to call me a "twit", it would please me _much more_ knowing that everyone could see it. _____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 207 Mon Aug 16, 1993 R.HOEKSTRA1 [RandyH] at 23:17 EDT After some experimenting, I found that if SAM runs after MINT in the AUTO folder and if the SAM_SET.CPX is not present, then the system sounds work with Multi-TOS. Not only do they work, they even work from the desktop (ie when you open a window to a drive partition on the desktop, the open window sound plays). I have done some very limited testing by running a few other applications and everything seems to work fine. The documentation says that MINT should be run last in the AUTO folder so does anyone know if running SAM after MINT will cause any problems? Also, with Multi-TOS loaded, the FORTUNE program plays its sound after the desktop is loaded and you can't even tell it is there (except for the sound and the prg name in the DESK menu). The only problem there is if you do something to cause a system sound to play before the FORTUNE sound is finished, it can cause a crash or SAM can get messed up (thinking someone else has control of the sound system). With care not to do anything until the FORTUNE sound is finished, the set-up seem to be pretty good. Just wish MTOS didn't slow things down so much (or should I say AES w/MTOS). Now if I could just get my cd player to come through the speakers and co-exist with SAM, I'd be really happy! RandyH ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 208 Tue Aug 17, 1993 MIKE.KELLER [ST Aladdin] at 00:38 EST || Fact: if aladdin had used the perfectly fine os serial || ||routines it would work on my Falcon now. Programmers can go || ||to the hardware all they want, but if they do, they should || ||realize their code is going to break on new machines with new || ||hardware and they shouldn't come crying to me. || First, if Tim had gone with the standard OS routines, what kind of performance would Aladdin have had? Not good, I'm sure. It would not have been adequate for a product supported by GEnie, nor up to Tim's rather high standards. Second, I'm sure Tim was aware that Aladdin would break if the hardware changed. That's the way it works. It's just that one would like to know about this stuff, y'know? Third, who are the programmers crying to you? Far as I can tell, they're all waiting for Atari. Lotta smoke in this topic. Open a window! mike.k ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 209 Tue Aug 17, 1993 B.STOREY [Billy B.] at 07:11 EDT Brian, I believe msg # 191 is extremely offensive. --------- Stan, you can't satisfy everyone, no matter what you do. When you get a high profile, cronic complainer unhappy, it begins to sound like a big deal, but it's not, really. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 210 Tue Aug 17, 1993 TOWNS [John] at 12:30 EDT Telling people what things are and telling them not to use it NEVER works. People use it, depend on it, and then Atari is stuck holding the bag supporting someone's brain damaged code. I strongly agree with not documenting things that are going to change. You may not like it, but I think it was the right thing to do. Another point.. Atari hasn't done the same thing that Microsoft has done. Atari didn't publish NVRAM information and HASN'T used that unpublished information in any of its applications programs. Microsoft didn't document those calls and their applications developers were allowed to use them. That is wrong. What Atari did is something that computer companies have been doing for a very long time: protecting the flexibility of the system for future expansion. -- John ------------