========================================================================= (C) 1993 by Atari Corporation, GEnie, and the Atari Roundtables. May be reprinted only with this notice intact. The Atari Roundtables on GEnie are *official* information services of Atari Corporation. To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem) 800-638-8369. Upon connection type HHH (RETURN after that). Wait for the U#= prompt.Type XTX99437,GENIE and press [RETURN]. The system will prompt you for your information. ========================================================================== ************ Topic 16 Tue Dec 31, 1991 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 22:34 EST Sub: The GEM Clipboard? What programs use the GEM Clipboard? 92 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 1 Tue Dec 31, 1991 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 22:35 EST I've been having fun using the clipboard in Steno, Stalker, and Aladdin. Are there any other programs that use the clipboard? ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 2 Wed Jan 01, 1992 M.ABDULKAREE [ASX] at 16:11 EST I am not aware of any "clipboard" being present in Atari GEM. Those programs probably use the available scrap functions and appl_write/read() to pass messages and whatever else they need. ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 3 Sun Jan 05, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 21:15 EST This topic can be killed. Or at least put out of its memory. It answered all my questions on the Clipboard. ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 4 Fri Jan 10, 1992 B.REHBOCK [Bill@Atari] at 02:31 EST No, this topic can't be killed; it answered all of the questions incorrectly, and somehow I missed it :-) Anyway, there are many programs in the piplines that _DO_ take advantage of the TOS system Clipboard. Applications access the clipboard management routine through scrp_read and scrp_write calls. When an application wants to put something on the clipboard, it should make a scrp_read call first to find out where the clipboard directory is. The call returns the PATH where the clipboard scrap is being kept, either set by the user (using a CPX, DA, etc.) or by the last application that put some scrap on the clipboard. (So it will return a string such as "C:\CLIPBRD\"). The application then checks that path to see if there is any scrap already there. (The scrap files are named, "SCRAP.xxx, where xxx defines what kind of scrap it is (.TXT, .WP, .NEO, .IMG, .GEM, .PGS, etc.)) If there is scrap on the clipboard, it should delete _all_ of it, to avoid causing confusion. It then should write out its own scrap to that path in as many reasonable file formats as possible. (PageStream might write out SCRAP.PGS, with its own formatting commands, font information, etc. but should also write out SCRAP.TXT so that all other applications (such as STENO) can understand the ASCII information. ARABESQUE might write out SCRAP.GEM and SCRAP.CVG so that the next application that comes along to paste _from_ the clipboard can choose the file format that it knows the most about.) From a programming standpoint, there are some more details, but I assure you, the clipboard works very well, (and has been in the O/S since 1985) and is spreading in use. There are developers that are working on sophisticated Clipboard Managers that allow you to examine, massage, and manipulate scrap that is on the clipboard, as well as move it from the clipboard into a scrapbook, so that you can go back and get it later. I have been a fan of the system clipboard for sometime before I joined Atari. It was first explained well in Julian Reschke's "Atari Profibuch". There is a desk accessory floating around called "CLIPBRD.ACC" that is buggy, but demonstrates how the clipboard can be taken advantage of. I will have the official developer guide to the clipboard uploaded to the Library to make sure any interested programmers can implement it fully and correctly. -Bill Rehbock, Atari Corp. ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 5 Fri Jan 10, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 02:47 EST Wow! I just know it would be nice to use it more. I really like Stalker with it's APPEND TO CLIPBOARD. It's saved me several steps sometimes. Only vaguely related to the clipboard is problem of no standard graphic format (although GIF seems to be gaining ground). It would be nice if S/T/T programs could exchange images through the clipboard. Call me crazy. Call me a rebel. I still think it would be nice. PicSwitch shows that it can be done. ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 6 Fri Jan 10, 1992 M.ABDULKAREE [ASX] at 22:31 EST Hmm.. that is what I sorta put up. Anyways someone adventurous could write a DA that functions as a Mac style Scrapbook-- it may redirect the scrap commands to it's own storage area and allow the user to selectively paste into the global clipboard or send it to an applciation. AES certainly allows this, with some adventuring! ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 7 Fri Jan 10, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 23:46 EST But programs need to access the clipboard. Somehow. ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 8 Sat Jan 11, 1992 B.REHBOCK [Bill@Atari] at 03:46 EST Yes, applications do need to be written to take advantage of Operating System Services. Ok, here is the deal, I will personally send a can of Jolt Cola to every U.S./Canadian developer that adds proper SCRP_READ/SCRP_WRITE support into their commercial applications in 1992. The application must also otherwise adhere to the GEM/TOS standard. (Proper menus, windows, respect for desk accessories, etc.) I will consider shareware/freeware if it's really good. To apply, send a copy of the application to: Atari Corporation 1196 Borregas Ave. Sunnyvale, CA 94086 Attn: Bill Rehbock/Jolt Cola Offer -Bill ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 9 Sat Jan 11, 1992 DITEK [David] at 04:24 EST Bill, Scrap Read/Write--no problem. Proper menus, windows.... Guess I'll have to learn to live without the Atari Jolt. :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 10 Sat Jan 11, 1992 WAYNED. [Wayne] at 08:34 EST Bill, Jolt Cola?! That stuff should be a controlled substance. :-) I've only drank a Jolt once (I'm not a 'cola' person). I was in a classroom environment for the first time in about 15 years and just couldn't stay awake on the first day. At the break I grabbed a Jolt to help keep me awake. It sure did the trick, but the instructor kept making me come down from the ceiling and sit in my chair. :-) Wayne ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 11 Sat Jan 11, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 17:20 EST Bill. maybe we should come up with a "logo" for programs to put on their packaging that says that they are "Atari Clipboard Ready." Then we could direct people to buy only those programs that have the logo on their packaging. I bet that would help the standard to get done. A note to those out there: If you are a developer and are considering adding Clipboard Support, take the time to look over the Atari Standard. If we all use it and support it, it will make a BIG difference in the ease of use of the Atari platform. Just say YES to the Atari Clipboard! -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 12 Sat Jan 11, 1992 DITEK [David] at 17:51 EST John, While I agree 100% that programs should start supporting the Atari clipboard ( I love it on my Mac ), having Atari direct people on what to buy and what not to buy would probably alienate quite a few developers. I can only hope that Atari never becomes as MacAnal about standards as Apple is... :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 13 Sat Jan 11, 1992 K.CORDES at 18:28 EST ASX, Indeed. A Scrapbook CPX would be neat! Then again, better not make it a CPX; it needs a big window for big picture. While they're at it, the hypothetical programmer who makes this thing should make it handle graphics conversions and along the various digitized sound file formats. MIDI too. -Kyle ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 14 Sat Jan 11, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 21:29 EST Cool! Use the clipboard to port sound files! Here's a goal. wouldn't be nice to cut a bit of text out of some program like a text editor or terminal program and then paste it into some DA flat file database? Let's say you will be interested in Quantum drives in six months when you've saved your pennies, a message drifts by and you notice it tells you exactly what you want to know. You clip it out, paste it into the DA, and six months later you search on "Quantum" and you've got the info, and any other Quantum info you've saved. ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 15 Sun Jan 12, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 02:43 EST I disagree David. It's really simple. If your program supports the Atari clipboard, then it would have the logo on the product packaging and Atari would tell users something like "Buy programs that have the Atari Clipboard Logo on the packaging." -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 16 Sun Jan 12, 1992 DITEK [David] at 05:10 EST John -- It's even more simple, if Atari recommends that users don't buy a developer's product simple based on the Clipboard criteria, the Atari market will lose developers. David ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 17 Sun Jan 12, 1992 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 06:51 EST Not all programs can or should use the clipboard; for instance, G+Plus, MultiDesk, HotWire, MaxiFile, and CodeKeys to name a few. Should our sales suffer because we don't "support the Atari clipboard" and users view them as somehow inferior because Atari tells users "Buy programs that have the Atari Clipboard Logo on the packaging?" I hope not. John ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 18 Sun Jan 12, 1992 ST-REPORT [Lloyd Pulley] at 09:35 EST John, >>Atari would tell users something like "Buy programs that have the >>Atari Clipboard Logo on the packaging." So if there were three comparible programs out, one that supported the Clipboard format - but might be buggy and limited - and two that might not support the Clipboard format - but were more full-featured and had few bugs - Atari would tell the users to buy the buggy/limited version since it supported the Clipboard? I don't believe that Atari should support one program over another.... unless it's one of their programs. Lloyd E. Pulley, Sr. ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 19 Sun Jan 12, 1992 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 10:09 EST Maybe I could use that in my packaging, John: "Kidprgs support that clipboard standard the same way HotWire does!" ;-) And, yes, Bill, standards are great and incentives are great, but there are times when neither one is appropriate. If you can improve on my programs through support of the clipboard, I'll award you with a free Creative Discovery Packet! ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 20 Sun Jan 12, 1992 R.JOHNSON [Robert] at 12:25 EST John, If Atari tells users to buy a product that has the clipboard logo, aren't they also telling them _not_ to buy the programs that don't? Some users would take that to mean that all programs with the logo are good, while those without the logo are junk. This, as we all know, is not true (nor is it Atari's intention, right?) Robert ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 21 Sun Jan 12, 1992 M.ABDULKAREE [ASX] at 13:51 EST Yes the scrapbook has to be a Desk Accessory. And no, don't make it feature- laden otherwise it will not be freeware, which is what I want it to be. Now I'm not saying that the person who writes it, should be Atari's Ken or John ;- ), shouldn't get any compensation but this piece of software will increase productivity a lot! Result, sales! I think John was simply being sarcastic when he mentioned the logo deal.. clearly there are certain classes of programs that have no need for a clipboard. Allow the developers to voluntarily meet the standards. Most of them are writing because the like it, not because they want quick money offered at McMarkets and PConsumers. On the other hand, I do support standards as long as they are reasonable and for the good of the _USER BASE_! After all, we are the people who buy the machines, right? ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 22 Sun Jan 12, 1992 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 14:19 EST Dorothy, It's possible that at least KidPublisher actually _could_ benefit from using the clipboard. This would would come in the form of being able to "paste" text from the clipboard into its documents and possibly to save text to the clipboard, although the latter may not pertain. Does this mean I get a free Creative Discovery Packet? John ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 23 Sun Jan 12, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 14:31 EST Doesn't sound like the developers will put the Atari clipboard logo on their package.:-) Why doesn't Atari make sure the developers know about the clipboard then they can use it where appropriate. I'm sure it could be listed as a feature on the box. Of coarse when I buy software I usually don't see it until it arrives at my doorstep. I get some good stuff that way because I'm not burdened with having to read the packaging or try it first.:-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 24 Sun Jan 12, 1992 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 14:54 EST No win yet, John. My users are much safer saving stuff to disk. The diskbox serves as a fileselector box; the child chooses to load a parti- cular document by choosing the document disk from his/her diskbox. My users don't have a grasp of cut-and-paste; they'd be Timeworks users if they did, I'll bet. ;-) Please explain further how this might be of use to a 6-year-old, say, who isn't quite doing what we call reading. Maybe there's still a Creative Discovery Packet in it for you. ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 25 Sun Jan 12, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 15:36 EST Hotwire _could_ (not should) use the clipboard for Hotwire Blocks. Maxifile could use it as another destination for the Print Directory. LGF could have "Clipboard" as a default button in tha paths menu to make up for programs that didn't have a save to clipboard. Calamus. Wordperfect, Stwriter, and Flash would make some procedures easier if they used the clpboard. Codekeys _could_ use the clipboard in the editor couldn't it? ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 26 Sun Jan 12, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 16:07 EST Bottom Line: Any program that have Copy,Cut,and Paste features for Text and Graphics should use the Atari Clipboard. Use common sense people.. It doesn't make sense for HotWire, MaxiFile, or other programs that don't deal with Text or Graphics to use the Clipboard. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 27 Sun Jan 12, 1992 DITEK [David] at 17:29 EST John, I don't think anyone is arguing that any new programs that support text or standard types of graphics shouldn't support the clipboard, I just don't think the use of any type of 'Atari approved' label is the way to go. Letting the developers know how it can benefit their product is a far better way of getting them to comply. All new products we develop, including the current developments, _will_ be supporting the clipboard. How do I go about getting the documentation on clipboard support ? ASX, Contrary to popular belief, the vast majority of Atari developers do it for the money, quick or otherwise. :-) In fact, I'd bet most would love to make the quick money on the Mac and PC you were talking about... But that's another myth! :-) Lloyd, The only thing worse than a computer company endorsing/not endorsing products is for the company to go into the software business and compete with their own developers. Apple is a prime example of how _not_ to keep your devs happy. ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 28 Sun Jan 12, 1992 OUTRIDER [Terry @ T2] at 22:04 EST Kene, Actually, I rather like your idea of using the clipboard to save HotWire blocks. I think it would make it a lot easier and faster to 'cut' one group of programs and 'paste' them elsewhere, since you wouldn't have to mess with fileselectors and filenames. HP7 - Terry - ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 29 Sun Jan 12, 1992 JMGSOFT [George @ JMG] at 22:09 EST One important though not fully explored requirement for a good clipboard spec is a very complete list of standard file formats. This is only partially (very partially) there for the ST. For instance, specs obviously exist for raw text (.TXT), GEM image bitmaps (.IMG) and GEM vector files (.GEM). But, now what about the following: Digitized Sound Midi Sequence files Database records Formatted text Combined graphics/text layouts Animation And there are more, too. Obviously, in each of these object types there are formats -- usually many formats -- in existence, but until specific formats are named the "psedo-official" standard, they are just to hard to support. For instance, I would be happy to add clipboard support for digitized sound to my program, but I would NOT be willing to do it if I had to scan for and support 4 different formats for pasting. Unless Atari steps forward and says something to the effect of "format x is the default clipboard format for object y" (ie "Microsoft RTF is the clipboard standard for formatted text"), there is not going to be wholesale use of the clipboard standard. Even the "standard" specs are poorly defined -- ie .TXT for raw text, but does that include CR/LF after every line or only LF, or only after a paragraph? and IMG is fine, but most programs only support single bit plane - what about 8 bit, 24 bit, and truecolour? Then there's GEM and GEM3 formats. Etc... Or in other words, the clipboard standard could still use some standardizing... -- George. ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 30 Sun Jan 12, 1992 B.STOREY [Bill] at 22:22 EST All, I have read the recent posts debating whether or not Atari should give a seal of approval to programs using The GEM clipboard. I can't see where there is need for debate. Every developer I see talking and uploading products to GEnie is doing his level best to produce the best software possible. If using the clipboard will make his program work better, I am sure he will use it. If he doesn't make it compatible with the other products which use the clipboard, you can be sure the users will let him know about it. Atari must give the developers all the info they need to use it. ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 31 Sun Jan 12, 1992 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 22:58 EST Ken, Yes it's possible for us to add the use of the clipboard to some of our programs that load and save files. But I don't think you quite understand the main purpose of the clipboard, which is for exchange of universal files; that is, files which are understood by more than one program. As John Townsend mentioned, this is generally (but not restricted to) text and graphics. HotWire currently does not have its own clipboard as such but rather expects the user to save a block to disk and load it back in manually. It might be beneficial for us to improve on this by installing more of an automatic cut- and-paste feature, but it still does not make sense to use the GEM clipboard because no other programs recognize HotWire block files. The same is true of CodeKeys. It _does_ implement its own clipboard internally through its cut and paste features, but once again it would be pointless to save to the GEM clipboard because no other programs can recognize or use KEY files. Your idea about LGF having a default button for SCRAP.TXT is interesting though. John ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 32 Mon Jan 13, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 00:02 EST One out of three!! Not bad. You're correct J John. I realized my errors as I "*S'ed" the message. But I figured it was better for me to brainstorm than have anything resembling reality in my message. Am I the only person that feels a little frustrated that DEGAS files became the default graphic format. It was the second program I bought back in 1985. What's the IAAD's stance on all this stuff? Who makes connectivity descsions? ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 33 Mon Jan 13, 1992 B.REHBOCK [Bill@Atari] at 00:44 EST David from Ditek, et al, Be rest assured, Atari IS NOT going to get MacAnal. The clipboard is a great thing to use, all developers have received the necessary information to support it, and we are not going to punish anybody's sales because they don't use the clipboard; that would be...bad. Dorothy, I agree with you to a point. If KidPublisher wrote out a SCRAP.TXT of raw, stripped ASCII when you did a cut or copy, if a child wrote something absolutely brilliant, the parent could do a 'copy', then run STalker, and "Paste Clipboard" to share the works with everyone. The environment that childrens' software runs in _is_ specialized, and doesn't have to and shouldn't have to adhere to a strict styleguide, naturally. (Although I would like to run KidGrid and be able to use STalker as a desk accessory, it would be a great time-killer during uploads and downloads. A big benefit to something like MaxiFile........ I would like to be able to copy a directory listing to the clipboard so that I can easily paste it into software distribution lists and the like. There are a lot of neat things to do with the clipboard. The Atari version of ProCalc by John Brochu allows the user to Copy the display to the clipboard, so that the results can easily be pasted into a document. -Bill ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 34 Mon Jan 13, 1992 D.BECKEMEYER [David @ BDT] at 00:46 EST OK John, just to make sure everyone knows, just where is the offical Atari Standard Clipboard defined again? Please mention the file # again. Thanks. ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 35 Mon Jan 13, 1992 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 18:25 EST Towns, ST users who have never tried, say, a Mac or GeoWorks may not realize that the clipboard in those systems actually saves *any* screen object, text or graphic. Will the proposed ST standard work for graphics as well as texts? Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 36 Mon Jan 13, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 20:34 EST The Atari standard clipboard defines how to find out if there is anything on the clipboard, how to paste things, and how to copy them. Usually you will find clipboard things in a directory on your hard disk called CLIPBRD or something like that. Inside that directory, are files called SCRAP.xxx where the XXX is the type of file that it is. If a program is able to use that format, then it could write and read type files. This makes the clipboard expandable I think. Or at least flexible. ;So, for example.. If I have an application that edits AVR files, then I could paste data to the clipboard in the format of SCRAP.AVR and other programs that know the AVR format could easily grab that data from the clipboard. I don't know if the standard is documented in the File Library, but if not.. we will post it. This is something that we want people to really use. Of course, we can't twist your arms to support it, but it really will add to the usefulness of the system if people support the clipboard. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 37 Mon Jan 13, 1992 M.ABDULKAREE [ASX] at 21:51 EST REALM: The clipboard has been around since TOS 1.0. It is an Atari GEM function which is documented in most good compiler manuals and tech sources. It is just that Atari never reccommended it's use so few develpers found it necessary to implement. David: Not many can get quick money from the Atari base.. and most know why. I agree with JMGSOFT, there needs to be "p-standards" before anyone can go around saying use the clipbaord. While big applications can afford to have the code medium or rest-of-us need to be informed on standards and they should be properly defined. How about MOD as a standard for STEreo files, MID or whatever for MIDI files, DBF for database, LDW for spreadsheet, ANM for animations? About VDI bit image and GEM metafiles, if the appropriate information is encoded in the header then only the standard encoding mecahnism needs to be documented and supported. Or go for TIFF. ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 38 Tue Jan 14, 1992 K.CORDES at 01:17 EST John, It also make the Clipboard sorta SLOW... Going to disk for each cut and paste; Let's face it, the ST needed (about 5 years ago...) a more sophisticated OS (with properly debugged Malloc()s! :-] ). -Kyle ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 39 Wed Jan 15, 1992 JMGSOFT [George @ JMG] at 02:48 EST A more sphisticated OS like what.... MS-DOS ???????? hahahahahaha -- George. ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 40 Wed Jan 15, 1992 B.REHBOCK [Bill@Atari] at 04:06 EST The Clipboard notes were defined in the third-quarter '91 dev newsletter. We will be uploading the ASCII text from the article next week, after NAMM. - Bill P.S. It is trivial to have your clipboard directory pointing to a ramdisk if you are concerned with disk access. I'm pretty sure that Scott Sanders uploaded a Clipboard Manager .CPX that sets the clipboard path at boot time. /*s ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 41 Fri Jan 17, 1992 JLS [John STanley] at 01:25 EST John Eidsvoog, >Not all programs can or should use the clipboard; for instance, >G+Plus, MultiDesk, HotWire, MaxiFile, and CodeKeys to name a few. Well, for one, I can see a useful way for CodeKeys to use the clipboard... It would be very handy to be able to mark a set of macros or a number of lines in a single macro and "cut" or "copy" it/them to the clipboard in text form. I could then use a regular text editor to modify/archive the macros and then "paste" the modified macros or macro-segments back into CodeKeys. I've often wished for a more powerful and flexable way to edit/archive CodeKey macros and this (combined with my favorite editor) would fill the bill quite nicely... The same could be done with Hotwire... (Most kinds of data can be represented in text form and many programs would benefit from the addition of a cut/paste option...) I suspect that many applications could be made similarly more powerful and clipboard compatable with some creative thinking. Quote from a later msg from Bill Rehbock, > A big benefit to something like MaxiFile........ I would like to >be able to copy a directory listing to the clipboard so that I can >easily paste it into software distribution lists and the like. >There are a lot of neat things to do with the clipboard. See what I mean? :^) - - - JMGSOFT [George @ JMG], >... Unless Atari steps forward and says something to the effect of >"format x is the default clipboard format for object y" (ie >"Microsoft RTF is the clipboard standard for formatted text"), there >is not going to be wholesale use of the clipboard standard. EXCELENT POINT! I agree 100+%. Atari is moving in the right direction, but it still needs to define and provide public format definitions for one single STANDARD clipboard format for each of the data types you mentioned! No developer will want to have to take random guesses as to which one of 15 or more graphic formats he/she will have to read/write to be clipboard compatable. Give them one format for each type of data and you'll have a real "standard". Bill Rehbock, what can be done to encourage Atari to do this? ... JLS ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 42 Sun Jan 19, 1992 DAEDWARDS at 06:13 EST B.Rehbock is absolutely right about the usefulness of being able to move text/data in ways that seem, at first glance, to be pointless. Something far outside the experience of most people here... I worked with a mainframe text editor in which I could generate a list of files, filter out the stuff I wanted to keep, edit the list into a stack of 'delete' commands, and execute it. Not including the filtering, this took a grand total of 5 editor commands which involved perhaps 30 characters of typing. Regardless of the number of files. (In fact, for the work I routinely do, I have never seen another text editor as good as the one I am referring to. Too bad it doesn't run on our IBM mainframes.) ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 43 Wed Jan 22, 1992 N.SAW at 03:00 EST Another neat support of the GEM Clipboard in MaxiFile could be for the file comment editor where you could just copy and paste stuff from say documentation for a particular program. If there was a particular point you wanted to remember you could just snip the text from a file viewer or text editor and paste into the file comment editor... /s ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 44 Fri Jan 24, 1992 S.SANDERS2 [SDS] at 00:04 EST To all: Well, Aladdin must've sidestepped this topic because I would've been an active participant long ago. I recently wrote a freeware CPX (library file #21398). This CPX allows you to set the clipboard directory on boot-up and change it any other time. In addition you can view .TXT, .ASC, .XIC, and .IMG. The only pitfall to this is that many ST applications overwrite the usefulness of this CPX by ignoring scrp_read(). Regardless I would suggest downloading it as I'm sure it will be quite useful in the near future. Included in this archive is a reprint of the document defining the standard from the Atari Developers' Newsletter written by Mike Fulton. To make a few other points...in regards to the questions of file interchangability, it's obvious that developers are going to have to come to grips with their independent formats and narrow down to what works the best for all. The .XIC format which I developed for the Newdesk Icon CPX was developed because there was no format which handled all of the attributes of an icon except for .NIC which is proprietary and .ICE which is almost as complex as .RSC. I hope to modify this standard before its release to make it a format to cover any type of icon. The Newdesk Icon CPX save SCRAP.ICN, SCRAP.XIC, and SCRAP.IMG. All of our other new developments and upgrades include full clipboard support. I might even upload a library of scrapbook routines to help people out. I will be making many improvements to the Clipboard CPX. I have already added .GEM support (courtesy Mike Fulton) and I would like to add .RTF but I have no sample files. I am also almost done with a scrapbook accessory that works just like the Mac's (better if you ask me :). My only problem is that I'm dumping a lot of time into this and right now these programs are freeware. Chances are as I add more features I will request a shareware fee. I will also supply source code for a fee as yet unspecified. The idea about a logo for product packaging is great. I'd suggest an Atari fuji symbol superimposed over a clipboard. Time to break out Outline Art. Maybe I'll upload a suggestion to John and Bill at Atari. If they endorse it I'll throw it on all of my products' packaging. Well all I can offer is kudos to developers who support this. This standard shouldn't have to be rammed down everyone's throat, once you get a taste of it you'll love it. -Scott @ SDS ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 45 Fri Jan 24, 1992 JEFF.W [ST Sysop] at 02:40 EST Regarding Scott's message (#44): Scott made a typo and transposed the file number for CLIPBORD.LZH. It is file #21938 (not 21398). And for anyone looking for Scott's Clipboard CPX support topic, it is Category 2, Topic 17. ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 46 Fri Jan 24, 1992 S.SANDERS2 [SDS] at 22:12 EST Thanks Jeff for the correction. I don't usually trnaspose letters :) -Scott ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 47 Sun Feb 02, 1992 S.YELVINGTO2 [Steve] at 01:21 EST Bill Rehbock wrote... >I will have the official developer guide to the clipboard uploaded to >the Library to make sure any interested programmers can implement it >fully and correctly. Is this available publicly, Bill? If so, what's the filename? If not, shouldn't it be made public? (Perhaps if some of us hobby programmers turn out a few clipboard-conforming applications, the commercial developers will be shamed into paying attention.) ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 48 Sun Feb 02, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 02:02 EST They may be in the CPX file uploaded by Scott Sanders @ SDS. Since we're talking clipboard how about a standard format for Mail Addresses in the Clipboard? A little interchangability between different programs would be nice. And related to this is an Atari sanctioned DA text editor, free form database that's disk based and uses FSM GDOS. It doesn't even have to be free of charge. How about putting "power" back into "power without the price." ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 49 Sun Feb 02, 1992 S.SANDERS2 [SDS] at 18:52 EST Yes, the official clipboard specification is in the archive in the library of version 1.1. When my envelope printer grabs from the clipboard it looks for the first five lines and assumes that's the address. There is really no problem with that as long as that's all you highlight. -Scott @ SDS ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 50 Sun Feb 02, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 22:28 EST That works. ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 51 Sat Feb 22, 1992 R.RICHARDS2 [Roger] at 09:38 EST For what it is worth, GEMvelope (my envelope printing program) impliments the GEM clipboard paste for addresses. In the future I'll add clipboard copy so that an address may be pasted to another app. ...Roger @ Synergy Resources Member IAAD ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 52 Sat Feb 22, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 16:23 EST Thanks, Roger. Believe me, every program that uses the Atari Clipboard makes a big difference! ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 53 Sat Feb 22, 1992 R.MORROW10 [Bob M.] at 23:29 EST STalker 3.1 uses the new clipboard too. IMO, the new style is for systems with hard drives because it requires the CPX to be installed, which is NEVER used on my floppy-only system for space reasons. I liked the old style, will get used to the new when/if a hard drive arrives. ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 54 Sun Feb 23, 1992 S.SANDERS2 [SDS] at 00:54 EST R.MORROW10: All clipboard programs should operate correctly without using the CPX. The CPX is _only_ for setting a user preference. If STalker's using it right, if it doesn't find a default directory it should set it itself (usually to C:\CLIPBRD). -Scott @ SDS ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 55 Thu May 14, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 14:07 EDT So what's the latest on Printer Utilities Pack, Cardfile, Maxifile, Steno, Aladdin, and Edhak? ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 56 Thu May 14, 1992 S.SANDERS2 [SDS] at 22:14 EDT SFRT-ASST: Could you be more specific? The PUP Pack is coming soon, I promise! Why did you mention the other products? -Scott @ SDS Member IAAD ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 57 Fri May 15, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 00:09 EDT I was hoping they would add or announce the application of the clipboard in their products. Maybe not Maxifile, but LGF could use a Scrap.txt default button. ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 58 Sun Feb 07, 1993 B.GOCKLEY [Brian G.] at 15:51 EST Boy, almost a year since the last post in this topic! I WANT MY CLIPBOARD SUPPORTED! It's fun and practical and with MultiTOS coming, it will become REALLY useful. Bye, Brian G. @ ST Informer ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 59 Sun Feb 07, 1993 SFRT-ASST [Kenne@SFRT] at 20:14 EST I got a Powerbook 100 since I started the topic. "Clipboards be nice." [sic] The test, I suppose, is whether the clipboard is used well in Atari Works. ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 60 Sun Feb 07, 1993 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 22:52 EST Atari Works will support the Atari defined Clipboard standard. I have been using it for quite some time and it works quite nicely. -- John Townsend, Atari Corp. ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 61 Sun Feb 07, 1993 SFRT-ASST [Kenne@SFRT] at 23:21 EST There you have it. ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 62 Mon Feb 08, 1993 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 01:05 EST Hiya John (Townsend)! Where ya been hiding?! We all miss you, stop by more often! -Tom McComb {12:48 am} Monday, February 8, 1993 ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 63 Mon Feb 08, 1993 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 13:20 EST Calligrapher 3 now supports the Atari clipboard when it's running under a multi-tasking system. John ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 64 Mon Feb 08, 1993 D.D.MARTIN [Swampy] at 22:02 EST Neato, JOHN! Hugs...Swampy ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 65 Mon Feb 08, 1993 B.GOCKLEY [Brian G.] at 22:18 EST Hey, AtariWorks wrote it own path and created a CLIPBORD folder, ignoring my existing path! It's not supposed to do that... Brian G. @ ST Informer ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 66 Mon Feb 08, 1993 EXPLORER.5 [Robert Goff] at 23:30 EST So how come it only supports it "when it's running under a multi-tasking system"? |) | |)O|) Robert Goff ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 67 Tue Feb 09, 1993 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 05:16 EST Robert, That's a good question. Apparently the author is unaware that there are accessories which use the clipboard. John ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 68 Tue Feb 09, 1993 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 17:25 EST Tom.. I was slightly burned out on online stuff for awhile and we have been attempting to get SpeedoGDOS and MultiTOS out the door. Considering all of that.. I decided not to logon for quite some time. I think maybe I am back now ;-) I will check into the Clipboard path and Atari Works. I was certain that it supported the standard Clipboard spec. Oh well.. If not, then it needs to do it. -- John Townsend, Atari Corp. PS. That doesn't even take into account that I am getting married in 5 days! Wish me luck. ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 72 Tue Feb 09, 1993 R.MORROW10 [Bob M.] at 22:11 EST Last I knew, the new, "firmed up" Clipboard standard did indeed have the application write a CLIPBORD folder with the SCRAP.TXT file inside it. ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 75 Wed Feb 10, 1993 R.KOHORN [RON] at 02:01 EST I began reading this topic only recently. Can someone briefly explain to me what the clipboard is? Is it just a destination folder for some programs? Thanks ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 76 Wed Feb 10, 1993 SFRT-ASST [Kenne@SFRT] at 02:57 EST The simple explanation is that it's a hidden file named SCRAP.TXT. The non-simple explanantion is that it's a process that allows you to move blocks of data in an application and between applications and the way the operating system (and applications) handle the process. You should be able to copy text or graphics to the clipboard and then paste them (and/or hopefully save them) in the same document, in a different document, or even in another application. All documents (or windows) need to know exactly where the SCRAP.* files are located and there's been a little confusion in the past on how to make all application aware of the location assuming they use the clipboard in the first place which in the past wasn't all that likely. ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 77 Wed Feb 10, 1993 B.REHBOCK [BILL@ATARI] at 03:01 EST Brian, what do you mean by "my existing path"? Are you using one of the Clipboard CPX's to define where your clipboard is? -Bill Applications that want to place stuff on the clipboard should 1)Make the scrp_read call to find out if a clipboard exists, and if so, where. 2)If one does not exist, it should create a folder called "\CLIPBRD\" on the boot partition. 3)It should clear the clipboard 4)It should place its scrap on the clipboard This is the condensed version :-) The complete procedure was outlined in the Developer Newsletter. ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 88 Thu Feb 11, 1993 CBARRON at 02:15 EST The clipboard process is also described in nov/dec atari explorer, the print magazine.... ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 91 Mon May 10, 1993 R.GREIN [Randy Grein] at 02:59 EDT Hi everybody! Gee, for what should be an active topic, it's sure quiet around here! Speaking as a user only (Honest, I really keep trying to program, but networks and kids keep getting in the way!) I've really needed clipboard functionality!!! Of course, I'd also like full multi-tasking, virtual memory, Novell support, a 48 hour day and $100,000/year. Seriously, I really like a lot of what I've seen here. Some very good ideas about possible functionality that I've waited to see for far too long. RE: "Official" Atari endorsement of clipboard compatable programs; I think that maybe some of the comments here are selling the average user just a little short. I THINK that most would have the brains to be able to judge overall features and suitability for an application, and use the "clipboard compatable" endorsement as useful information, but maybe I'm just assuming that the average Atari user is a little more involved and willing to learn than the average PC user. Of course I don't know for sure, but put me down for 1 vote for official endorsement! ------------ Category 14, Topic 16 Message 92 Mon May 10, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 23:45 EDT Randy, Right now, the main problem seems to be an incomplete implementation. STeno, Aladdin and 7UP (word processsor from Germany) each use the clipboard differently, although they each do it properly *from the standpoint of the way the application itself handles the clip.* The problem is in getting other applications to handle those clipboard contents. Al ------------