<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> I'm going to put y'awl in listen-only for a few
minutes.  I have an opening statemeant. Then, we'll go on.

Thanks, everyone, for showing up to this, the initial meeting of the
Programming RTC.

I want to say a few things and state a few opinions before I "un-muzzle"
all of you.

I would like to have these RTCs run in an informal, but organized manner.
What that means is that I would like to have everyone in the talk mode,
but with some order.

What I suggest, at least for tonight, is that we speak in a rotation
based on your Job number.  I'll call out who is up, and then that person
will have his/her say.  When done, he/she lets me know and we pass on to
the next person.  After one round of this we can see how it is working,
if it is too restrictive or if we need to be more formal.  I'm sure that
we will get to some rather open discussions, but I do ask that everyone
respects the right of someone else to speak and doesn't interrupt.  I
will TRY and moderate a little.  Wish me luck with this bunch!  8^}

I think there are several issues we need to decide this evening.  I'll
throw them up along with my opinion.  BTW, my opinion counts no more than
anyone elses.

Question 1:  What are we actually trying to do?  My thought is that this
is more of a "Programming for the Atari" than a "Programming" RTC.  I
think we should emphasize what is different about programming in the
Atari environment.  I also believe that this could be a very good means
for people to exchange experiences, techniques and problems.

I also believe that we should stress "legal" programming.  I know that I,
at least, would want to believe what I learned here would be applicable
across the entire spectrum of Atari 680x0 computers.  MTOS and Geneva
should be considered.

Above all, this should be a learning experience.

Question 2:  When and how often should we meet?  From my initial post I
got a pretty mixed response.  I think weeknights had a slight edge over
weekends (I assume some of you young squirts have better things to do on
a Friday or Saturday night than sit in front of a computer) and Thursday
seemed to be the most popular.  10 PM Eastern seemed the appropriate
time.

Frequency is another subject.  To be honest, I'm not sure that this type
of RTC could survive on a weekly basis.  I suggest twice a month: maybe
the 1st and 3rd Thursdays.

I'm open on this and will cover whatever you decide.  Just remember that
there are already regularly scheduled RTCs on Monday, Wednesday, Sunday
and the 1st Friday of each month.

Question 3:  What language(s) should we concentrate on?

Well, C is an obvious choice.  <Yes, Albert, even ANSI> Much of the
reference material available is slanted towards C.  Lattice C and Pure C
are currently supported but a little on the pricy side to me.  Lattice is
supported on GEnie by HiSoft and Oregon Research.  Pure C is supported by
Gribnif here also.  There are also several free packages available here
on GEnie.  I don't know how good they are or how easy/hard they are to
set up.  I'm sure someone will comment on that!

Many of us also like assembly.  There are advantages to assembly and it
really isn't too hard to learn.  The Devpacs (2 and 3) from HiSoft are
excellent and are supported here on GEnie both by HiSoft and Oregon
Research.

GFA Basic seems to be popular.  I have never used it and I don't know if
GFA is or plans to continue to support the Atari platforms.

HiSoft also has a basic, but I don't know anything about it.

I will admit my own prejudice here:  I don't like basic of any ilk.

Another possibility is Pascal.  ICD is selling (out?) Personal Pascal for
$20.  It is a dated package and probably won't be supported, but the
price is right and I understand that it even runs on a Falcon.  High
Speed Pascal by HiSoft is available, I believe, from Oregon Research. 
Again I know very little about it.

I hope no one suggests Ada, Modula II or Fortran.  <g>

I'm sure there are some folks who will want to use C++ or some other
Object Oriented Language.  Comeau C++ isn't out for the Atari line yet
and when it is it will be $250.  Then you need a C compiler to go with
it.  There is a PD version of C++ out, but the same comments I had about
the PD C compilers apply here.  I, personally, am not ready to get into
C++, et alia, yet.

I think we should concentrate on C, Assembly and maybe GFA Basic.


Question 4:  Do we want to work on "projects?"  I have some thoughts in
that direction.  Every programmer I know of has developed a library of
routines that can be called upon for various projects.  Why re-invent the
wheel for each new program?  I would like to see us develop a set of
common routines in the various languages that we could share with the
Atari community.  One set I can think of right of the bat would be
determining the exact capabilities of the environment in which a program
is operating.  I'm sure there are many other routines that would be very
handy to have in a "canned" state.  <Thought: would this be re-inventing
GEMFast?>

Maybe as we progress we might want to embark on a group project; a game,
a word processor, a CD rom reader that doesn't require MTOS to run, or
what ever.  Just a thought.

If we decide to embark on projects I can probably arrange for a private
library where we can exchange code segments.  Remember, however, that
code developed in this RTC environment should end up public domain.  We
are here to educate each other, to learn and, hopefully, to be of benefit
to the Atari community as a whole.


Now, before I turn on the babble mode, let me remind you that I will be
releasing a transcript of this RTC (and future ones) to the libraries. 
This has been requested by several people who either can't or don't want
to attend these RTCs, but what to learn also.  So remember your rantings
<g> will be available to the public.  

Ok, Sean will be first to comment.  Babble mode on.

<[Sean@TWP] P-DIRECT> Yikes. Let me read back for a moment...  I'll skip
#1 for now.  How often, twice a month sounds good to me.  Language should
rotate, or we should have multiple (ouch) projects going on at once, if
that isn't too confusing.  GFA is popular, and C is the "real"
programmers language, and assembly has strong fans so choosing to
"ignore" any of them could hurt attendance.  I want to work on
projects...  and back to #1......I think we're all here to learn a
little something that we didn't know before and also find out some new
tricks.  (and meet new people) I guess I'll step down now. <grin>

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Thanks, Sean.  Lou, you're next.  ga

<[Lou] ST.LOU> I would only comment that I will primarily be reading and
learning since I don't program right now. However, I think Thursday is a
great night because things are quiet and GEnie will not experience tech
problems for an RTC.  Mike, I like this format... it should work well to
'set things up'.  Can I suggest you have a SIG for novices? GA

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Lou - interesting thought.  ok.  Lou, thanks.  Tim,
your turn.

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> Let me see.....  In regard to you mention of LEGAL
code, in the past, I thought it was easier to avoid the 'system', but
I've found that making legal code is pretty nice and easy.  I think that
once a week would be nice....  I prefer programming in C, and finally, I
think projects would be a good idea, but I wouldn't have time for them
personally.  I think I've babbled enough... GA.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Thanks, Tim..  ACK, Your turn.  ga

<[ACK] C.FOLLETT> hi, all just  a note: Atari topped the Stock EX. active
list again today and closed at 11 3/8...3DO lost 3 pts...  personally, I
was thinking about programming in basic only because I have done it
before but would consider learning c I was thinking about maybe just a
few litlle programs for my 1.5 year old for starters after that maybe a
few bigger projects...ga

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Thank for your input.  For those who arrived after
the opening statement, We are taking comments in a round-robbin based on
your job number.  I may skip a couple and come back - don't worry, I will
get to you.  dmj - speak to us. ga

<[John too] J.G.H.> If you don't want to say anything just tell Mike to
pass you by

<[Splat!] DMJ> Biweekly.  Assembly / C / GFA (despite my loathing for C).
Projects--maybe.  Semi-formal like this is good.  GA

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> That was consise, dmj - How unlike you.  <g>

<[Splat!] DMJ> <ouch>

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> J2, your turn. ga

<[John too] J.G.H.> We can have one langauge on one week and another one
next week say...Basic the 1st Thursday...C the 2nd ... whatever the 3rd
also some programs are uploaded in the libraries with source codes and we
might tear them apart and see what they do GA

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Thanks John.  That's an interesting thought.  I know
GEM sound has source code.  Might be fun to find out why it doesn't
always co-operate with the OS.  Keith, comments? ga

<[Keith] K.GERDES> Sure...  I sit in front of DevPac most of the time. 
I've worked in C too.  Projects are a must IMO.  That's the only way to
learn...  GA

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Thanks, Keith.  If you are wondering where we are in
the sequence, do an /sta and see what the job numbers are.  Chris, ga

<[Chris] C.CASSADAY> I concur with most others.  Biweekly, switching
between C, Assembly (my preference), and GFA.  Perhaps we could do some
work on GEM Nethack...  I like it quite a bit, fun game...  I'd like to
do some hardware specific stuff as well...  but I need some foundation
first.  GA

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Thanks, Chris.  Bud, your comments? ga

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> #1 - I'm looking for pointers on how to use all of
the system calls. I have plenty of books, but they really don't tell me
when I should use them. #2 - 1st & 3rd Thursdays. #3 - I program in
Fortran at work, ;) but I would like to learn C #4 Projects - YES, I need
a goal to get going! GA

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Thanks bud.  I sympathize - I have to use Fortrash at
work too.  Sam your turn. ga

<[Sam030] SAM-RAPP> I like 'C'.  I have done very little programming in
the last few years, but I would like to get back into it with 'C'. 
Perhaps we could get Oregon to make a Programmers RTC discount on
Lattice? ...  I like the idea of projects.  More than twice a month would
strain my Master Card.  GA.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Ok Sam, thanks - Charles, opinions? ga

<C.S.SMETON> I use C and 680x0 assembly alot. But I am well versed in
other languages I would strongly recommend the Atari Compendium from SDS
as it has just about anything you might need in it for the ST/TT/F030 ga

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Charles, is STraight FAX C or assembly or both? ga

<C.S.SMETON> Mainly C, but in a few places assembly for speed. Most of
the printer drivers are also assembly.  ga

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Thanks - Tony, comments? ga

<[Tony @ Canoe] A.RIDLEY1> I missed the opening comments. I'm not sure
what the purpose of this RTC is? Will there be group programing projects?
or Tutorials? or what? Also What is the level expected of programers if
any? This seems like a good idea.  Who is "in charge" of this TRC? GA
oops trc=rtc

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Tony - that's exactly what this meeting is about -
trying to decide what we are going to do.  I guess I'm trying to moderate
the RTC, but I don't see how anyone can be "in charge" of this bunch!

<[Tony @ Canoe] A.RIDLEY1> Will there be an area for messages ?

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Tony - we already have a topic set up (Cat3/Top11)
and if there is interest we will set up a private Library area. ga

<[Tony @ Canoe] A.RIDLEY1> I'd like to see work specific to the DSp
talked about I think most of the other programming topics are
overworked..the DSP is new and exciting. GA

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> I called motorola for the 56k manual the other day. 
It's out of print!

<[Chris] C.CASSADAY> I'll sell you mine for $100! 

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Mike Hill, your inputs? 

<[Mike] M.HILL13> Weekly is fine with me.  I like the project idea and
think regardless of what language you program in people can group off and
work on the project in their particular language.  Each sub-group can
help each other out also.  I even have an idea for a project or two. 
Groups like this can really come out with some nice programs. Look at the
free software foundation FSF, Linux, Mint, etc.  GA. :-> 

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Thanks, Mike - some good thought there.  Chris Oates?
What say? ga.

<[Chris] C.OATES2> Well, I don't have much preference for time, and as a
student I'm not sure about being able to work on projects intensely, but
I'd like to learn more about Assembly and some new Falcon related Stuff. 
Maybe have occasional meetings to cover "new" technology.  DSP, Falcon
Specific, MTOS, Speedo compliance? GA

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Thanks, Chris - good inputs.  Duane, Comments? ga

<[Duane] D.CHARTER> -I like the idea of twice a month.  Thursdays are
fine... I will miss a few due to business travel.  -I like C or Assembly,
but would still participate in a Basic RTC.  -Projects would be
great...it is the best way to learn programming, and we have some experts
available here to help when we get stuck.  Each project should have it's
own topic area where we can exchange ideas and code.  ga

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Duane was ready! <g>  Thanks.  Kim, your turn. ga

<[Kim] K.SWIFT> I'm interested in DSP, MIDI.  Strong opinion: 
object-oriented paradigm is a must! Right now I'm programming in Laser C
on the ST but want to move to Falcon040<g> and C++ or other OO language. 
I have an interesting MIDI project I'd be willing to consider doing with
others.  ga

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Ok Kim, thanks.  OOP seems to have advocates and
those who hate it! <g>  The big problem I see with OOP on the Atari line
. . .  is lack of availability and/or cost.  I guess G++ is out there,
but I don't know too much about it.  Ok, Have I missed anyone?  If so,
yell now!  <quietly>

<[Kim] K.SWIFT> project idea:  public-domain C++ compiler?

<[Splat!] DMJ> That's a big project.  

<[Sean@TWP] P-DIRECT> <ouch>

<[Kim] K.SWIFT> oops out of turn 

<[Mike] M.HILL13> By 2095? 

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Kim - you don't think small, do you? <g> 

<[Kim] K.SWIFT> <g>

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> A C++ compiler would be nice, but how we organise
the necessdary number of people who are so disconnected into working on
this thing?

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Ok, let me get some thoughts together from the
comments. . .  Seems to me that before we decide the frequency of
meetings, we need to decide if we are going to program in all languages
simutaneously or break up into smaller groups.  I personally think that
comparing routine across the languages would be of benefit.

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> How many of you have enought understanding of
automata theory?  I know I don't.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> not me, Tim.

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> Tim, can you give a brief rundown of that theory?

<[#include] M.HILL13> Mike,  I think we need to decide a good project and
break into groups.  Those groups can meet as often as they want and we
can all share info together. The first project should be simple

<[Splat!] DMJ> I like the idea of comparing code between languages.  It
helps to highlight the strengths and weaknesses of the languages.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Lets take a show of hands by using the /rai command. 
those in favor of separate rtc meetings for the different languages
please /rai now.

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> Are we supposed to talk out of turn?  Are there
turns now?

<[Chris] C.OATES2> what if we're not sure?

<[Kim] K.SWIFT> I'm very opposed to separate languages!!!

<[Splat!] DMJ> Mike's gonna pop the room into listen-only mode any
second...

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Ok, I got 4-1/2 raises <g>

<[#include] M.HILL13> There should be one meeting a month for all though.

<[Splat!] DMJ> Now the NAY vote?

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> Automata theory, as I understand it, involves
parcing things, mostly.... like compilers, natural languages, regular
expressions, mathematical expressions, etc.  You can do anything with a
set of stacks.  I could be a little off there.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> those in favor of meeting together and splitting up into
separate groups privately /rai now.

<[Sean@TWP] P-DIRECT> How about different rooms? ie: Room 1 is C, 2 is
GFA, etc.

<[Splat!] DMJ> What about people who want more than one language?

<[ACK] C.FOLLETT> Sean, that sounds good!

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Hmmm 4 and 1/2 raises.

<[#include] M.HILL13> Separate but not private.

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> How about we invent a NEW programming language? 
<grin>

<[Sean@TWP] P-DIRECT> Monitor

<[Lou] ST.LOU> I would like a NOVICE SIG in one room....

<[Splat!] DMJ> I like that idea, Tim. <g>

<[Sean@TWP] P-DIRECT> One can monitor multiple channels.

<[#include] M.HILL13> Some may want to watch all groups, but your going
to have everyone work on the project in their language.

<[Splat!] DMJ> Yeah, but it's harder to PARTICIPATE in more than one.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Sean has a very good idea.  We could start in a
single room and then split up into the various rooms.  Like that one
folks?

<[Kim] K.SWIFT> Divided we stand, separate we fall.  I ask:  one
language!

<[#include] M.HILL13> Yes!

<[Splat!] DMJ> You can't do that Kim.

<[Sean@TWP] P-DIRECT> How about the first in a month being split and the
other one combined.

<[Splat!] DMJ> Other way around, Sean.  Or maybe not.

<[Chris] C.OATES2> yes, group meeting first...

<[Sean@TWP] P-DIRECT> Whichever :)

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> It would be nice if you could link code segments
from different languages into the same executable.

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> Good idea Sean

<[ACK] C.FOLLETT> how about we compromise ourselves out of existance?

<[Splat!] DMJ> Since we already used the first meeting this month.

<[#include] M.HILL13> How about defining a group project first

<[John too] J.G.H.> Well if a group is working on a certain project in a
langage they can always hop to another room to discuss things

<[Splat!] DMJ> Youc an do that with a linker, Tim.

<[Chris] C.OATES2> well, you can do in-line assembly with laser C...

<[#include] M.HILL13> then breaking into language groups to accomplish it

<[Sean@TWP] P-DIRECT> All of this is just prelimiary, it isn't set in
stone.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Ok, how about this.  Twice a month, meet in room one
for general discussion and then split for the various languages.  OK
folks?

<[Splat!] DMJ> That sounds good.

<[#include] M.HILL13> We have C gurus, Assembly gurus, Logo Gurus :->

<[Chris] C.OATES2> How about the really important things?  Like group
name, motto, mascot & t-shirt design??? :)

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> I know, but what linker would handle Pascal,
Assembly, C, and Modula 2 object files?

<[Sean@TWP] P-DIRECT> <raising hand>

<[Splat!] DMJ> Logo gurus?

<[Chris] C.CASSADAY> Sounds good to me.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Ok, thats it.

<[#include] M.HILL13> Sounds good!

<[Zombie] R.ANISKO> some C novices (like me :-)

<[Chris] C.OATES2> a 'C' Grue?

<[Splat!] DMJ> If they're compiled properly, they should all have similar
calling conventions, Tim.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Any objections to 1st and 3rd thursdays at 10pm
Eastern?

<[Kim] K.SWIFT> But don't we have Babylon with many languages?  Aren't we
a small enough group for one language?

<[Splat!] DMJ> Sounds good to me.

<[Sean@TWP] P-DIRECT> No objections from me...

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> Pascal calling conventions are different from C in
the standard... Assembly has none.

<[#include] M.HILL13> Sounds good!

<[Splat!] DMJ> No Kim, we DON'T have Babel.

<[Chris] C.CASSADAY> No objections.

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> Go fo it.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> OK - that's it.

<[Kim] K.SWIFT> oops, Tower of Babel <g>

<[Chris] C.CASSADAY> My babel fish is nicely installed in my ear.

<[Splat!] DMJ> Tim, assembly can be written to use C calling conventions
(of course).

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Now to the fun part.  Project nominations?

<[Zombie] R.ANISKO> will the pertinent info of this meeting be posted in
the BB?

<[Sean@TWP] P-DIRECT> Now Mike writes it down in stone.. :)

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> I know.

<[Splat!] DMJ> Yeah, it should, Rob.

<[Chris] C.OATES2> # include <babelfish.h>

<[#include] M.HILL13> I have an idea!

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Lets go around the horn again.  Let's start with Sean
again. ga sean.

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> 5 * 9 = 42

<[Sean@TWP] P-DIRECT> GEM window based simple terminal.

<[Chris] C.OATES2> that works on the Falcon??? :)

<[Sean@TWP] P-DIRECT> <big grin>

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Let me do this a little differently.  First, it
seemed to me that everyone wante projects.  Any objections to that?

<[Splat!] DMJ> No.

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> No

<[Zombie] R.ANISKO> projects are ok with me...

<[#include] M.HILL13> No objections.

<[ACK] C.FOLLETT> no

<[Chris] C.OATES2> nope

<P.HANZE> projects sound great!

<[Duane] D.CHARTER> no objection

<[Sean@TWP] P-DIRECT> Just fine with me, obviously.

<[Chris] C.CASSADAY> NO. objections.

<[Kim] K.SWIFT> good idea

<[John too] J.G.H.> Hmmmmmm...how we going to list the credits on it?
<wink>

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Guess not.  Ok, everyone with a project idea, do a
/rai and I will call on you in some sort of order.  /rai now.

<[Splat!] DMJ> Why, list all the names, of course.

<[Duane] D.CHARTER> Use remarks for the names.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Ok Sean - you first.

<[John too] J.G.H.> Me first?

<[Zombie] R.ANISKO> j2 - we'll all create a randomizer, and IT will list
the names in random order :-)

<[Sean@TWP] P-DIRECT> As I said, a GEM window based simple terminal. It
would make all the standard OS calls, and would make use of GEM and
BIOS/XBIOS.  Perfect for "testing" out our format.  GA

<[John too] J.G.H.> Good looking (forgotten) Sysop's first?

<[Splat!] DMJ> Except for the complete lack of support in the OS for
serial stuff...

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Thanks Sean.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Mike Hill ga.

<[#include] M.HILL13> I say we start at simple at first.  One of the nice
things about Windows is the API calls for creating INI files
(configuration files).  I say we make a library other programmers can use
that lets them create ini files that store configuration data for their
programs.

<[Splat!] DMJ> Already exists, Mike, Geneva handles .INI type files. 
<oops, speaking out of turn again.>

<[#include] M.HILL13> Not everyone has Geneva though. Storm for instance
does this.  INI files are basically text files. GA

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> Yeah, but how well does Storm work?

<[Splat!] DMJ> <wince>

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Thanks, Mike.  I like starting small myself.  dmj you had
an Idea?

<[#include] M.HILL13> Sorm works great as far as I can tell.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Tim-Storm works very nicely!

<[Splat!] DMJ> Yeah, Sean gave me an idea.  How about a GEM-based text
editor? Nothing fancy.

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> I'll take your word for it.... I haven't used it.

<[Sean@TWP] P-DIRECT> Storm has a few problems on the Falcon.

<[Splat!] DMJ> What doesn't?

<[Sean@TWP] P-DIRECT> w/ScreenBlaster specifically.

<[Splat!] DMJ> I can think of a few reasons why.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> hey guys, lets hold off the chatter a little.

<[Splat!] DMJ> <oops, sorry>

<[Sean@TWP] P-DIRECT> Okay, Mike. <grin>

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Kim - I think you had an idea? ga,

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> I would like a nice ASCII text editor, and I could
write one.  I wrote a nice editor for UNIX... it's paragraph oriented and
auto-word wrap and everything... how about I release source?

<[Kim] K.SWIFT> I'd like to see CD-Rom support on the Falcon.  Anything
we can do?

<[Splat!] DMJ> You like assembly?

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> <sorry out of turn>

<[Kim] K.SWIFT> Also, MIDI.

<[Sean@TWP] P-DIRECT> Start smaller? <big grin>

<[Kim] K.SWIFT> ga

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Kim - I'd like to access a CD ROM without MTOS!

<[Splat!] DMJ> Me too.

<[#include] M.HILL13> Here Here Mike!

<[Chris] C.OATES2> use MiNT? :)

<[Splat!] DMJ> That's as bad as using MTOS.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Chris Cassaday = your idea? ga

<[John too] J.G.H.> We can also have some of the Advanced programmers
work on a more advanced project so they don't get too bored with us
lesser knowledgable programmers ;>

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> I'd like to access CD rom without slowing down my
machine.

<[Chris] C.CASSADAY> Super duper program launcher for MTOS and Geneva. 
Would except LZH, ARC, ZOO, ZIP, ARJ, etc and lauch the appropriate
program.  Would be user configurable to allow user to add new files... 
Support drop and drag protocol to allow window..  to remained open so
user could pass programs to install as new app or data files to execute
them...ga

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Hmmm - what would you call that in 5 words or less,
Chris? ga

<[Chris] C.OATES2> "Super Duper Program Launcher"???

<[Chris] C.CASSADAY> Super Duper Program Launcher?

<[Chris] C.OATES2> :)

<[Chris] C.CASSADAY> <rbg>

<[Chris] C.OATES2> Great names think alike...

<[Chris] C.CASSADAY> <rbg>

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Rob - your idea? ga.

<[Zombie] R.ANISKO> something simple?  how bout a GEM-based text
convertor - convert between ST/PC, MAC and Unix files - it would be basic
I/O and GEM windows fgeatures...  maybe runnable by both GEM and command
line?

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Ok, rob. Thanks.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> My personal idea would be a library of common
routines that every programmer needs, like walking the rectangle list. 
We could all then have a library to start with to use on a larger
project.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> OK, lets vote.

<[#include] M.HILL13> George Bush

<[Zombie] R.ANISKO> Bill the Cat

<[#include] M.HILL13> Oops wrong voting.

<[ACK] C.FOLLETT> right on, Zombie!

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> We have in nomination: 1) a terminal prg, 2) a
configuration library, 3) a text editor, 4) a CD rom reader, 5) a word
processing format converter and 6) library of routines.


<[Sean@TWP] P-DIRECT> Something tells me this is going to be edited out.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Everyone think.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> ok all in favor of #1 (term prg) do a /rai now.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> ok, I got NO /rais for #1

<[Splat!] DMJ> Guess we killed the term program.

<[Sean@TWP] P-DIRECT> Awww...shucks. :)

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> hey guys, just a few minutes more and then we can
chatter!

<[Splat!] DMJ> The natives are restless...

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> all in favor of #2 (configuration utility) /rai now.

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> Reminds me of an elephant joke.

<[Mike] M.HILL13> Can I stuff the ballot

<[Splat!] DMJ> <snicker>

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> I got one rai.

<[Mike] M.HILL13> Not the editor!!!!!!!!!!!

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> #3 (text editor) /rai now

<[Chris] C.CASSADAY> I presume by configuration utility you mean "Super
Duper Program Launcher"?

<[Mike] M.HILL13> Boooohhhhh

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> 4 for #3 - chris - nope, launcher coming up.

<[Zombie] R.ANISKO> (how 'bout an Amiga emulator ;-)  oops, quiet :-O

<[Chris] C.OATES2> can we vote for more than one?o

<[Mike] M.HILL13> Can we vote twice? :->

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> How about a wordprocessor or a UNIX clone?

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> #4 (cd rom reader)  I'd appreciate single votes
please.  /rai now.

<[Chris] C.OATES2> text editor = simple word processor...

<[Zombie] R.ANISKO> ...sockets library for MiNT?

<[Mike] M.HILL13> I also mentioned to Mike that a university holds an
annual group programming contest.  We can get the rules from the
Internet.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> One for the CD rom.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> #5 (the super-dooper program luncher) /rai now.

<[Mike] M.HILL13> The contest starts mid november

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> One for the luncher <g>.

<[ACK] C.FOLLETT> I like this one but I already voted :-(

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> Nov 18 for the internet programming contest, I
think.

<[Chris] C.CASSADAY> "Luncher"  I'm insulted.  <g>

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> #6 (word proc text converter) /rai now.

<[Chris] C.OATES2> me too, ack.

<[Sean@TWP] P-DIRECT> Isn't 6 the routine set?

<[Splat!] DMJ> That's what I thought it was.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> I screwed up on the list - I forgot the launcher.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> One for the text converter.

<[Sean@TWP] P-DIRECT> We just did the luncher.. :)

<[Mike] M.HILL13> Yeah we voted on the luncher already!

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Sean - I know we did it, I just left it out of my
initial list.

<[Chris] C.CASSADAY> <sigh>

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Finally, the routine library. /rai now.

<[Kim] K.SWIFT> the supper dipper peanut luncher?

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> OK - I got 5 for the library.

<[Chris] C.OATES2> peanut launcher?

<[Chris] C.CASSADAY> <double sigh>

<[Chris] C.CASSADAY> <deep heavy sigh>

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> <growl>

<[Zombie] R.ANISKO> sigh young?

<[Mike] M.HILL13> Oh well.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> since we had a bunch of ones an 2s, lets revote with
just the text editor and the library in the running.

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> What's to be in this library?

<[ACK] C.FOLLETT> maybe one language could get one project, another a
next project etc.?

<[Kim] K.SWIFT> got a good laugh out of me, worth the visit...

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Text editor, /rai now.

<[Splat!] DMJ> Everything useful, Tim.

<[Splat!] DMJ> <g>

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> 4 for the editor.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> library, /rai now.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> 7 for the library.

<[Splat!] DMJ> Wow...

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> <whine>

<[Splat!] DMJ> Somebody spank that whiner and send him to bed... <rbg>

<[Zombie] R.ANISKO> }do we need a library card? ;-)

<[Kim] K.SWIFT> Please don't tell me you're going to code the library in
a zillion languages.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Looks like the lib wins.  I suggest that until our
next meeting folks post suggestions for the contents of the library in
cat3/top11.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Kim - nah only about 3.  <g>

<[Splat!] DMJ> Kim, anyone who thinks one language can do it all is
crazy...

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> I have a couple routines that draw pixels and horizontal
spans very quickly on any resolution or number of bit planes.

<[Splat!] DMJ> But they're hardware-dependent.

<[Splat!] DMJ> Hi Judy.

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> I work only in C and Asm.

<[Kim] K.SWIFT> Anybody who thinks you can do a project in many different
languages is crazy.

<[Mike] M.HILL13> I hope we have many languages, to force everyone to
work in one language is crazy.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Any one have a calender handy?

<[Sean@TWP] P-DIRECT> We need completely portable code.

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> I have one in sight.

<[Judy B.] ANTHILL> Hi DMJ.

<[Splat!] DMJ> The 18th is Thursday, two weeks from now.

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> What's wrong with hardware dependant?  We're
programming for Atari, right?  We're not planning on using these on a PC,
are we?>

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> is the 18th the 3rd thursday?

<[Zombie] R.ANISKO> maybe low level stuff (like telecomm) in asm or C; 
more screen oriented stuff, etc in a higherlevel language?

<[Mike] M.HILL13> We might have some working in Assembly, some in C,
others in GFA

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> Yes it is Mike.

<[Splat!] DMJ> Hardware-dependent is almost okay.

<[Sean@TWP] P-DIRECT> Things have got to work in all screen rezes and
colors.

<[Splat!] DMJ> But what about graphics cards, and True Color mode?

<[Chris] C.OATES2> yes! graphics cards!

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Thanks Bud and dmj.  Ok, next meeting is the 18th of
Nowonder at 10pm eastern.

<[Chris] C.OATES2> suport Crazy Dots! :)

<[Zombie] R.ANISKO> sean - then we need to know what the screen
resolution is and # of colors (and not just ST Low, Med, and Hi)

<[Sean@TWP] P-DIRECT> Nowonder?

<[Kim] K.SWIFT> 18th of Nowonder?

<[Sean@TWP] P-DIRECT> :)

<[Zombie] R.ANISKO> Ah, no wowonmder..

<[Tim@TWP] P-DIRECT2> The code I was referring to works in any rez with
any number of bit planes, as long as you supply it with a proper MFDB.

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> Freud, your slip is showing ;)

<[Mike] M.HILL13> Ive got my Crazy Dots II ready!

<[Duane] D.CHARTER> Good Night everybody, it's been great.  See you on
the 18th.

<[Splat!] DMJ> Except that graphics cards do not use the bitplane format
the ST uses.

<[Chris] C.OATES2> Cool.  I want to upgrade soon.

<[Zombie] R.ANISKO> we'll need a "dictionary" of terms - like MFDB for us
novices :-)

<[Splat!] DMJ> Memory Form Description Block.

<[Kim] K.SWIFT> Good night.  Don't let the PC's bite.  :)

<[Sean@TWP] P-DIRECT> I'm sure that helps him... :)

<[Bud] B.CONNOLLY1> Suggestion: The Atari Compendium should be on
everyones desk.

<[Host] MIKE-ALLEN> Thanks to all who participated.  I'll post this
transcript (boy is this going to be a bear to edit!) in the libs.  Folks,
please hit cat3/top11 with your comments and suggestions.  Thanks for
your co-operation also.

=========================================================================
(C) 1993 by Atari Corporation, GEnie, and the Atari Roundtables. May
be reprinted only with this notice intact.  The Atari Roundtables on
GEnie are *official* information services of Atari Corporation. To sign
up for GEnie service, call (with modem) 800-638-8369.  Upon connection
type HHH (RETURN after that). Wait for the U#= prompt.Type XTX99437,GENIE
and press [RETURN]. The system will prompt you for your information.
==========================================================================



                            Programming RTC #01
                          (organizational meeting)

                             November 5, 1993

                             Host - Mike Allen
 


Be sure to stop by on Thursday, <Nov. 18th> for our next Programming RTC
Your host will be Mike Allen. See you then.

                              End of RTC

