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The system will prompt you for your information. ========================================================================== ************ Topic 4 Wed Aug 17, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 15:35 EDT Sub: NeoDesk 4 - The Ultimate Desktop Topic to discuss NeoDesk 4, the lastest version of the original desktop replacement for Atari computers. 203 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 1 Wed Aug 17, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 15:36 EDT I have just posted a demo version of NeoDesk 4 (NEO4DEMO.LZH), and a press release describing the program (NEO4PRES.TXT). Upgrades and other backorders are starting to ship now and, due to the volume, may take 2-3 weeks to complete. For Immediate Release 8/17/94 --------------------- Gribnif Software is proud to announce the completion of the most recent upgrade to the original desktop replacement for Atari computers, NeoDesk 4. The wait is finally over. NeoDesk has hundreds of features, so here are just some of the more popular ones in the new version: o A completely new "look and feel", including 3D windows, enhanced dialog handling, and the ability to have multiple dialogs open at once. All this works on any Atari computer with any ROM version. o Multicolored icons - each icon can have up to 16 colors, and can even appear completely different when selected. o Icon Editor - This multiple window Icon Editor lets you edit and modify custom icons for any file or folder. The editor can read many popular icon formats, including ones from other platforms! o Any Degas, Neochrome, Tiny, IMG, or BMP picture can be viewed (by double-clicking on it) or can be used as the desktop background. Desktop pictures can even be "tiled". o Each directory window has its own menu bar, making it much easier to find frequently used options. o Each window has its own "parent directory", Show Info, and trashcan icons. o Items can be selected from the keyboard, including a search mode. o File Groups - Now you can arrange commonly used programs and data files together in the same window, even when they are physically contained in drastically different locations! Their names can even be changed, using up to 20 characters. o Font Control - NeoDesk 4 gives you the power to redefine what fonts and point sizes are used within its windows, and even for the text underneath icons. o Disk copy, file operations, and floppy disk formatting can all occur "in the background", allowing you to use your computer for other tasks at the same time. o Search Files - Easily search your system for one or more files, based on their name, size, date, or attributes. A file group can even be created containing the results. This is just one example of the powerful Filtering options which are also available for file operations. o Compatible with all Atari computers, in all resolutions, including third-party graphics cards. NeoDesk 4 is available for just $69.95 plus $4.15 S&H. Owners of NeoDesk 3 can upgrade to the new version for $25 + $3 S&H by sending us both original NeoDesk 3 master disks. Backorders are being filled right now, and may take 2-3 weeks to complete. (Shipping amounts listed apply to orders shipped within the USA only. Please contact us for other areas.) Gribnif Software P.O. Box 779 Northampton, MA 01061-0779 USA Voice: (413) 247-5620 Fax: (413) 247-5622 Dan Wilga Gribnif Software ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 2 Sat Oct 08, 1994 M.POCHE [Mick] at 00:25 CDT Spud Boy, 1STVIEW is available in the library here (actually 1ST GUIDE, a close relative I believe). File #33642. View II is a commercial program available from It's All Relative. - Mick (Who's off topic, but Al started it!) ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 3 Sat Oct 08, 1994 J.BATES15 [JAB] at 01:26 EDT Dan, Here's an interesting story on the Gadgets problem. Just for fun I booted w/o G to see what all the fuss was. Before I got to the windows dialog, I opened a window. Only the right half had "window gadgets", no close box or the three little boxes at the bottom. No color either. So I open the Windows dialog and the Gadgets sub-dialog to find that the use system colors button is marked. I deselect it and get the choices in the window, re-select it and I get system colors, just not the correct ones (or not all of them). Toggling between these choices, sometimes the system color window would be all color, sometimes just the top half colored, sometimes no color, while the deselected mode would always give me the choices. Exiting this dialog and returning to the desktop, the window had all the gadgets, colored in the incorrect system color choice. Reopening the windows dialog and Gadgets gave an 11 bomb error. I think I win the bomb contest. The bomb trap worked and dropped me back to the Falcon desktop. It's not a problem, I've finally adopted Geneva as a full time thing. Later, JAB ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 4 Sat Oct 08, 1994 J.BLOCKUS [JACKIE] at 01:53 PDT Al, Referring to the 1741 icon file, I keep getting a message that says: "There is not enough free memory for this operation" AND "Error in .NIC file Format! As much of the NIC file as possible has been read". SO I changed my JarXXX to JAR300 and FOLDRXXX to FOLDR300 and rebooted. I went into icon editor and selected the .NIC file for the 1741 icons. After a while, I DID get the file to come up with 1731 icons. 10 missing or maybe there were exactly 1741 icons. No matter. I did not get any ERROR message tho, great accomplishment this time. (no luck with AW/Geneva/Speed5 tho) ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 5 Sat Oct 08, 1994 DMJ [dmj] at 10:52 CDT Spud Boy, For more information on View II, please see CAT 2, TOP 6. Thanks! Jackie, You should never need to set JARxxx as high as 300, although it doesn't consume that much memory. A setting of 30 is usually more than you will ever need. ~dmj ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 6 Sat Oct 08, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 12:43 CDT Here's one to check out on a TT, NeoDesk4 with and without Geneva. Click on 'Desktop Notes' in the 'Desktop' menu. click OK, on my system I return to the Desktop (Neodesk 4 v4.002), it will leave the 'Button' "Desktop Notes" on the screen with the 'Settings' menu highlited. If I click it on it will bring up the full dialog box again, if I click 'Cancel' returns to normal. This will also clear (from the desktop) if I use the 'Shift, Alt, Undo'. Is this me, system, or the 002 patch? Frank L BTW This happens with and without external fonts. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 7 Sat Oct 08, 1994 F.GORON [Frank] at 16:12 EDT Jackie & Al, As a matter of fact, I also found 1731 icon, not 1741, forgot to mention that last nite. Also as DMJ mentioned the JAR prg doesn't need to be that high, in fact in this case it might not be a factor at all. Frank G ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 8 Sat Oct 08, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 17:03 EDT !stGuide is more advanced, but takes up a LOT more memory. 1stView is better unless you want to install 1stGuide as the app that displays JPEGs when you click on them, which is what I did. I'll check the 1stView docs to see if I can send it up separately. Jackie, I hadn't thought of the possibility that opening a NIC file would use up some of the folder pool. (Dan?) My extra folders are set at 5,000, so I don't ever get that kind of message. As dmj sez, JAR doesn't need to go very high. Mine is 20. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 9 Sat Oct 08, 1994 LYRE at 21:14 EDT Jackie, If I've been following this discussion correctly you're using a Falcon w/ 14Mb. Anyway, just wanted to say that on my Mega ST2 with 120Mb HD I'm using 300 extra folders - and should probably have it set around 450. If you've got 120Mb HD or more, you should consider raising the limit. If my system is cutting it close, I'ld imagine yours may be closer if not over. Particularly if you're running a multitasking system since you will automatically end up with a lot of folder references (each program's default path, multitasking paths & envirnoments, each program's load/save/system/resource path, etc). Lyre 8:16 pm, October 8, 1994 ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 10 Sat Oct 08, 1994 T.PATRICK5 [Happy Hacker] at 19:24 PDT Greetings all... Well, I just tried the Neo-4, release 002 upgrade and it seems to be better, although not completely fixed, in regards to memory fragging. Without Geneva I still boot with 2 blocks with 3.39MB free, and running a program results in 5 blocks with 2.95MB free, but subsequent program runs does NOT cause any further fragging (the 5 block frag remains unchanged). The icon editor still seems to be fragging, but I haven't played with it enough to see if it's better or worse than before. Oh, and although the initial frag leaves less free memory than Neo-3, I can again run the program that broke under release 001 (because of fragmented memory). With Geneva PageStream still shreads memory badly though, even when set to "single-tasking" with "Unload" on. [sigh] And quitting and re-running Neodesk doesn't fix the frag any more (it used to)? Thanks for the patch, Dan!! Works much better with "Unload" now. Aloha, from the Happy Hacker! (Tim) ... FaST Technology Turbo25 inside! ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 11 Sun Oct 09, 1994 B.AEIN [B Man] at 00:08 EDT Dan, What is the deal on a F030 in 4 color mode? Are you aware of the weird 3D radio buttons in a dialog? Should I send you a screen IMG to show you what I mean? I noticed that the Neocontrol no longer has a switch for the Blitter??? Keypress are still not being held on my falcon. I have a macro that closes windows, but the same macro will not close a group window. Does Neo4 have routines to make the screen look like it is fading out when a prg is launched, I see a weird flash as the neo launch's and returns from a prg. I would like to see an option for users that will allow a another dialog come up when you copy/move. This dialog would bypass the one with all the options and display a smaller one that has COPY and Move as the main buttons, wit maybe pause and in background as small buttons. I miss Neo 3's simple copy/move dialog and would like to have an option for it in 003. Otherwise seems to be working good! Bman ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 12 Sun Oct 09, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 02:02 EDT Now _this_ is weird. I just dragged two files to the TRASHCAN.ACC icon on my desktop, and they were promptly removed from the drive window. I closed the window and opened to the TRASHCAN, select all, and delete permenantly. All without a bomb. (after all, I did close the window first!) However... and this is where it got weird... after it deleted the files I got a window'd dialog box on screen saying 'the operation you requested will be added to the queue'. I've _never_ seen that message before. Anyway, it offered me only a 'cancel' button which, when selected, did nothing and left the dialog box drawn onscreen. When I hit Return, the QUIT button from the TRASHCAN screen appeared out of nowhere, but couldn't be selected. I called the 'About NeoDesk' screen hoping when I clicked it away, the other boxes would go too. NOPE! (by the by... I _did_ try having Neo4 do a screen redraw.. that didn't do it either.) When I 'clicked away' the Neo4 info screen, the standard Delete Item dialog box appeared on screen!! (To me, _that_ was the weird part!) This has never happened before. Any ideas? Could the same problem that causes me to bomb on first COLD boot, or boot OK but with screwey FAT's cause this problem too? Doubly weird... the next time I tried to delete something to the Neo4 trashcan, it was back to 2 bombs! Ugh! Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 13 Sun Oct 09, 1994 D.HADLAND at 00:02 PDT I would like to make a suggestion for the next upgrade. When highlighting a file (in this case a Doc or Text), we can have a little box along with the other boxes down to the left, to change to have the printer que accessed. That way we can have the window full screen and still able to print small txt files. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 14 Sun Oct 09, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 19:12 EDT Frank and all, When I counted the icons, I either included the default icons twice or was napping. :-) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 15 Sun Oct 09, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 18:44 CDT Al, Dan, anyone, Am I losing my mind or not. I don't think I was getting it before but when I am booting and just as the 'Geneva' introduction box closes I get a very loud "Bink" or bell or sound. I don't recall this from the past. This happens just as the into box closes and now goes into the execution of Neo 4. Frank L ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 16 Sun Oct 09, 1994 G.LEONE [Gerry] at 19:56 CDT I have one minor suggestion for the next upgrade -- I'd love to see a "save" option in the icon editor, so that I can easily save my work as I go. Put that low on your priority list, Dan. -Gerry ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 17 Sun Oct 09, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 22:19 EDT Matt, The dialog or alert that says that the operation will be added to the queueueue (never could spell that word right!) pops up when you tell Neo to do a file operation that cannot not be accomplished at that time because it is already doing a file operation. All of us beta testers messed up royally on the current release, which has some bugs. Maybe we just got lazy, but my honest thought is that we kept seeing Dan improve it so steadily that we made an assumption that the latest one didn't need as thorough a checkout. I remember well how a friend of mine who is an Atari developer had a dozen folks wring everything possible out of his new software, then put it on sale. On the first day of a show, when dozens were watching, a fellow programmer stopped by and crashed the program with one keystroke. He pressed the Help key while the Help window was open. Nobody in the beta group had tried that. :-) D.H., That's what STeno is for. :-) I find STeno indispensible when working with NeoDesk, and the fact that I can drag a text to the icon of a DA (STeno) and have it pop open is a joy. If the STeno window is already open and I drag a new text to its icon, STeno's window contents change to the new text -- intuitive, easy and so very helpful. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 18 Sun Oct 09, 1994 C.NICHOLLS [BILL] at 21:46 PDT With earlier versions of Neo, I used to use the little barrel icon for the Neo trashcan, to distinguish it from the regular desktop one. Now with Neo4 002 I find this icon is labelled Group and doesn't have a template for its title, so that I can't rename it. How can I get my old recoverable trashcan icon back? Oh, I see, No sooner had I written my message than I went to the manual, and though I didn't find it altogether clear, I created an icon, dragged my barrel to it, found a template for the name and renamed it. My barrel is back.I shall have to use something else for the group icon, which I haven't made use of yet. I'll post anyway in case my experience is of use to anyone else. Bill ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 19 Mon Oct 10, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 06:14 EDT Gerry, You get a SAVE option in the icon editor if you work on a NIC file that is NOT the neoicons.nic that appears as the default. (The icon icon, if I am saying this right.) Just copy the default icons to another name and work on that file instaed. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 20 Mon Oct 10, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 06:51 EDT Bill, I sent a lot of icons up here. The Group icon in my "buttons" icons is very nice. :-) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 21 Mon Oct 10, 1994 C.BINCKLEY [-- Chuck --] at 04:45 PDT Dan, The fonts in question have names longer than 32 characters, like "Fixed Pitch Courier 810 Bold Italic" and Geometric Slabserif 712 Bold Italic" (both are Bitstream Speedo fonts), so I assume they're causing some conflict with your methods. Also, clicking and holding the mouse button down on the font name didn't help, but I figured out that if I move the mouse out of the font list before I let go of the button, no font would be selected. The annoying thing is that once I pop up the list, if I want to scroll through it to find a font, I have to make sure I don't let go of the mouse button until I get to the font I want - I'll either get the wrong font, or the popup will close and I'll have to scroll through the whole list again! Hope you can get this cleaned up for the next update (whenever)... Thanks! -- Chuck -- ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 22 Mon Oct 10, 1994 G.LEONE [Gerry] at 19:58 CDT Al -- >this right.) Just copy the default icons to another name and work on that file >instaed. Good idea (or should I say "idae"?), and that'll work. I was just hoping for something a little more elegant than "copy icon, work on icon, save icon, copy new icon back." No biggie, tho. -Gerry ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 23 Mon Oct 10, 1994 B.STRINGER at 22:26 EDT Hi, please forgive me if this has already been addressed but I just downloaded this topic and have not had a chance to read all the posts. I'm a registered owner of Neodesk 3 and find your requirement of sending in my old discs for upgrading more than a bit of a pain. What's the point of registering when you get treated like a pirate at upgrade time. I assure you that NONE of the PC software companies I deal with have a similar policy. Even Codehead dropped the requirement for their Warp 9 3.80 upgrades (which I also bought). Bringing my old disks down to the post office requires a special trip and is an inconvienence for your customers. Thank you for your consideration. Bruce J. Stringer, M.D. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 24 Mon Oct 10, 1994 G.LEONE [Gerry] at 22:41 CDT Bruce -- It really isn't my place to be making the arguments -- I'd say it was up to Dan and the Gribnif folk -- but I do think you've overracting just a touch. >I assure you that NONE of the PC >software companies I deal with have a similar policy. That's probably because ALL of the PC software companies can afford to lose a sale -- or two... or a thousand -- to pirates and still survive, making a very comfortable living from the remainder. I'm sure you know the Atari market well enough to realize that most Atari programmers hardly make any money at all for their efforts, and that every single sale counts. Dan would've spent the same number of hours perfecting NeoDesk 4 for the PC as he did for the Atari. And he would have made 100 times the sales. No one's calling you a pirate; no one's even accusing you of piracy. I'm sure the requirement was made for people who aren't quite as honest and upstanding as you. >Even Codehead dropped >the requirement for their Warp 9 3.80 upgrades (which I also bought). Bringing >my old disks down to the post office requires a special trip and is an >inconvienence for your customers. And if you read the Codehead topic closely at all, you also noticed that, before they dropped the requirement, they stated OVER and OVER that you can put your disks in a PLAIN white envelope, slap 2 or 3 stamps on them, and drop them in a mailbox. No trip to the post office. No hassle, no bother. Calm down, Bruce. There are really BIG things in this world that you could get angry about. I don't think this is one. -Gerry ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 25 Tue Oct 11, 1994 LYRE at 01:14 EDT Bruce, I'll add one other comment to what Gerry has said. This being that when older versions of software are still in the owner's possession, some of them have sold those older versions to others. Not that you'ld do that. But it has happened. Additionally only having one copy of the disks prevents confusion as to which disk is the most up to date. Lyre 1:07 am, October 11, 1994 ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 26 Tue Oct 11, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 16:16 EDT Dr. Stringer, I'm sorry you feel that way, but this has always been our policy, and is not likely to change. Our intention is not to treat you personally as a pirate, but to try to impress upon everyone that piracy (or reselling an old version of a program that has been upgraded to a newer version, in this case) is very detrimental to our business. When you have a market the size a PC software company does you can afford to lose a much larger percentage to dishonesty, but when your already tiny market is diminishing every day, you cannot. I also don't see why you need to go down to the post office. Just pop the disks in a regular envelope with $.75 postage and leave it for the letter carrier to pick up with the mail (s)he leaves for you tomorrow. D.Hadland, I think you're asking for a printer icon in the loewer left of the window, but I'm not sure. Is this correct? If so, I'll consider it. Matt, I think you and everyone else should just give up on the trashcan for now. I don't know why it still doesn't work, but I'll see if I can figure it out. Bman, I've seen the weird radio buttons before, but I couldn't remember what video mode it was in. Now that I know, I'll fix it. It probably needs to be fixed in both Geneva and NeoDesk. The Falcon has a Blitter, but according to Keith Gerdes, who traced the ROM code, it can't be turned off. That, combined with the fact that changing it causes the ROMs to reset the color palette for some unknown reason, makes it worthless to even try. Nope, there is nothing to cause the screen to flash when you run a program, though perhaps it is because NeoDesk tries to save and restore the color palette? I'll see if setting the colors to their current values again causes this. The rest I will look at. Al & Jackie, Opening a NIC file doesn't technically use up the folder pool, though depending on your system's configuration, it can take up memory descriptors (which are taken by GEMDOS from the same place as the folder descriptors) when you open a NIC file with lots of icons. JAB, I am already aware of the problems with the Gadgets dialog. Frank L, Could you be a little more specific? I'm not sure I understand what you are saying doesn't look right. I'll see if I can duplicate the problem you are having with the Desktop dialog. Don't worry, it's just cosmetic. I definitely think you are losing your mind . There's nothing in NeoDesk that uses the sound chip, except for the control panel which sets the master volume, and I've not heard anything like that here. Jeff W, I thought that most of the memory fragmentation was gone, but I'll see if more can be done with respect to the icon editor. Gerry, Everything should work fine in general, it's just a few specific problems that people have run into so far (mostly the recoverable trashcan and opening the Gadgets dialog a second time.) If you really want to save as you go, just open C:\NEODESK4\NEOICONS.NIC (instead of using the NeoDesk Icons icon) and that will give you a Save button. Just don't change anything in the NeoDesk Icons window, or you'll end up saving it on top of your changes to the other reference to the same file! Frank G, Other people have noticed problems with creating new rezes in the icon editor, too. I need to look at it again. When Geneva is running, you should use WCOLORS.CPX (or equivalent) to set the colors. In fact, if you do this and then save INF, the current window colors will be saved and then later used by NeoDesk when you run without Geneva. Just make sure to set the colors in WCOLORS before running NeoDesk. Chuck, Thanks, but I already know exactly what is wrong with the Gadgets dialog. The only thing you can do right now is to quit after using it (or just not open it a second time.) Otherwise, there is a pretty good chance you will have weird things happening. I'll take a look at the thing you mention with the Memory dialog. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 27 Tue Oct 11, 1994 F.GORON [Frank] at 18:42 EDT Dan, Gotcha on the window color CPX thing. Thanks Frank ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 28 Tue Oct 11, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 19:48 EDT Gerrae , It's not a workaround; it's a way to save as you go along with your work. Bruce, You can mail your disks from any mailbox. Gribnif's NeoDesk in all its versions is one of the most pirated pieces of software in the realm. All of us legit owners pay for this, in ojne way or another. To expect Gribnif to ignore piracy is nonsense. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 29 Tue Oct 11, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 21:49 EDT Thanks Dan - Yes, I've already stopped using the Recoverable Trashcan (boo-hoo), but I just can't seem to bring myself to remove it's icon from my desktop, hence the constant reminder. Hey now... if your thinking about adding a printer icon to the lower left of the window, what about making the trashcan there a user setable one... Recoverable or not? Just a thought. Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 30 Tue Oct 11, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 21:48 CDT Dan, I realize that the Help reader in the desktop and dialoag etc is only cosmetic, just thought you ought to know about it. The problem of resolution and the desktop color is caused if the Desktop color is chosen inside of the Icon Editor, and if this is a solid color, this is then saved when you return to NeoDesk. Now then, if you boot up or go into a 'Mono' configuration the screen will be 'Black', this is caused by not being to choose in the Icon Editor a mono configuration as is the case with the icons. If I then go into the Icon Editor and choose the the 'Color' and place a pattern to change the black to a grey, you once again save when you move back to Neodesk. I now have a grey desktop. I then will boot up or move into a different resolution with 16 colors I now have a grey desktop with color icons, but I have lost my solid color desktop, unless I go back into the Icon editor and choose my solid color again, and at this point, the next time I move into a 'Mono' mode, I have a black desktop again. (Catch 22 (G)). The coarseness of the pattern or grey is no longer a problem as today the box of 'Fluff' :-) (CDII) arrived, much to my happiness, I am once again a happy camper. My thanks to you for getting the CDII board squared away. BTW - The 'Bink' I heard went away when I changed the Desktop color. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 31 Tue Oct 11, 1994 MIKE-ALLEN [NM~SysOp] at 23:03 EDT Dan, > The Falcon has a Blitter, but according to Keith Gerdes, who traced >the ROM code, it can't be turned off. I believe that Atari stated, back in the days when they still talked with their computer customers, that the BLiTTER in the F030 could not be turned off because, among other things, it was being used for DMA data transfers to/from the hard disk interfaces. I would imagine that turning the BLiTTER off would lead to many strange happenings! Mike Allen ST HelpDesk~Sysop Written: 8:09 PM Mountain Time Tuesday, October 11, 1994 ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 32 Tue Oct 11, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 23:21 CDT Dan, I think I got the 'Mono' desktop squared away. I don't know what I did but at least instead of the 'Black' desktop I get a 'white' by fooling around in the Icon Editor with the 'blank' dialog switch. I think that now I'll let well enough alone (G). Frank L ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 33 Wed Oct 12, 1994 M.POCHE [Mick] at 00:15 CDT Dan, Here's a little cosmetic quirk I noticed. In ST Medium resolution, in the NeoDesk Control Panel, when selecting CPU speed (MegaSTe), the buttons in the dialog overlap a bit. I prefer using XControl, but I figured I'd point this out. - Mick ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 34 Wed Oct 12, 1994 T.CARMAN [Tom Carman] at 00:00 MDT Dan, You may remember that when Neodesk 4 first came out some of us were having problems with getting it to run properly with SETMOUSE.PRG. I discovered that if the SHELL statement was placed after the run C:\GENEVA\SETMOUSE\SETMOUSE.PRG statement that everything booted fine. At that time (under release 001 of Neodesk 4) I was also booting with Neoqueue, Taskman, Warp9cp, XCONTROL and a few AUTO folder programs. Immediately after boot-up an inspection of the memory revealed 3 blocks. When I upgraded to release 002 I noticed that with no other changes I was now getting 5 blocks of memory, so I started fiddling. The results of my investigation are these: a) Using AUTOMOUSE.PRG, from the MOUSEKAMANIA II package, to set the mouseshapes takes less memory and brings me back to only 3 blocks of memory immediately after boot-up. b) Using the NEOCNTRL.ACC in place of the XCONTROL.ACC while still using SETMOUSE.PRG from the GEM.CNF file also cuts the number of memory blocks back to 3. c) Doing both of the above brings the number of memory blocks back to two, and results in the largest overall memory saving. Unfortunately I find I need the XCONTROL.ACC for its ability to handle CPX's. The Clipboard.cpx, in particular, is essential. I have not yet found another way of setting the clipboard while using Neocntrl that did not result in larger memory useage than using XCONTROL.ACC. The old CLIP.PRG does not work properly with the programs I am using. I also use STraight Fax which requires the use of a CPX. and SERIALFX.CPX is another. So I guess I will have to live with the larger memory consumption of XCONTROL and the greater number of memory blocks. I thought you might be interested in the effect of the above, particularly the superior behaviour of AUTOMOUSE.PRG vs. SETMOUSE.PRG. Any savings in fragmentation is a plus. Tom Carman (The Sermonator) ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 35 Wed Oct 12, 1994 T.PATRICK5 [Happy Hacker] at 00:38 PDT Dan, Mike, Bman, Re: Falcon Blitter can't be turned off... Besides... why would you even WANT to turn the Falcon Blitter off? On the old ST series there were a very few programs that didn't like the Blitter, it's true, but anything that finicky certainly won't work on the Falcon, regardless of the Blitter status. Tom, I'm using NeoControl and Xcontrol, and NINE other accessories as well as about a dozen AUTO/TSR programs, and I only boot with 2 blocks? That didn't change when I upgraded, so there's something in your system that's adding the extras? Do you run any of your CPXs as resident? (Mine are all non-resident.) You might also try re-sorting your AUTO folder and ACCessories. Somtimes the order in which you run things can make a difference. My experience with Setmouse is that it did add an extra (small) block if run from Geneva. Maybe you could try having NeoDesk run it? Aloha, from the Happy Hacker! (Tim) ... FaST Technology Turbo25 inside! ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 36 Wed Oct 12, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 13:03 EDT Tom, Y'know, there's one thing I hadn't thought of before that you might want to try. If you set SETMOUSE for single-tasking, and run it before NeoDesk, it will return all of its memory before NeoDesk gets run, and this may help the fragmentation. Mick, Noted. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 37 Wed Oct 12, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 13:38 EDT Matt, In the meantime, there are other ways to create recoverable trash cans, one of which is mentioned in "Secrets of NeoDesk." You may also want to look at Data Rescue, which I am not suggesting as a replacement for Neo's recoverable trash can, since they actually serve different purposes. Data Rescue is more powerful and a system-wide method, working no matter how you delete (from the item selector, for example). Frank, The Help function in the "About" display is fully functional. Tom, Xcontrol's toll on memory can be cut down if you make sure all the CPXes are non-resident. They don't need to be. (As Tim points out...) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 38 Wed Oct 12, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 19:20 EDT Oh yes, Al - I'm quite familiar with the "Secrets of NeoDesk." (Gee, what _was_ the name of the guy who wrote that tome?) A lovely piece of work. I have decided to keep a TRASH folder on the desktop, until Dan gets the 'real' recoverable working again. I remember reading about Data Rescue when it was introduced, may have downloaded the demo, but didn't keep it on the system long. I like NeoD's better. For my uses, I kinda felt Keith's (?) program was overkill. Thanks, Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 39 Wed Oct 12, 1994 G.LEONE [Gerry] at 21:01 CDT >Xcontrol's toll on memory can be cut down if you make sure all the CPXes are >non-resident. They don't need to be. (As Tim points out...) I know I know how to do this, but I just can't seem to find the drawer in my mind that I put it in. How DO you make sure that all CPXes are non-resident? -Gerry ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 40 Wed Oct 12, 1994 W.TURCZYNSK1 [Bill] at 22:35 EDT Gerry: >How DO you make sure that all CPXes are non-resident?< Select your CPX Control Panel from your ACCs, you should have a CPX with a big "?" with Configure, select it, open it. At the top of the panel is a window is a selector with arrows, select the CPX and you'll see the option for resident or not, select what you want a save it. That's it! BTW--> Get you latest Hacker? I FAX'd them again and got a call from Dennie Edwards. If you want I'll Email the bad news? [Bill] ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 41 Wed Oct 12, 1994 G.LEONE [Gerry] at 22:08 CDT Bill -- > Select your CPX Control Panel from your ACCs, you should have a CPX with a Thanks for the info! >BTW--> Get you latest Hacker? I FAX'd them again and got a call from Dennie >Edwards. If you want I'll Email the bad news? Got it... what're you referring to? Ya, uh... email me the news. I think. -Gerry ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 42 Wed Oct 12, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 23:17 EDT Dan, Oooh, great tip! Utils like that just run once and do their thing (SETMOUSE), so setting them to single-tasking is a neat hack. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 43 Thu Oct 13, 1994 Y.DUFRESNE [Papageno] at 00:07 EDT Sermonator: I just ran some tests. The fact that SETMOUSE is set to run before the shell command in the GEM.CNF causes NeoDesk to start before Setmouse terminates. This will cause some fragmentation. The best way to conteract this is to set SETMOUSE to singletasking in the Task Manager. This will cause Geneva to wait until SETMOUSE terminates before loading ND and thus allowing it to free some of its RAM before Neo is allocated its own. This is the results I got from my test: SETMOUSE in SINGLE tasking: Biggest TT-RAM block: 15 465 424 in 4 blocks Biggest ST-RAM block: 3 222 586 in 3 blocks SETMOUSE in MULTI tasking: Biggest TT-RAM block: 15 463 014 in 5 blocks Biggest ST-RAM block: 3 222 330 in 5 blocks So, you will likely get about 3 kb more free ram if you singletask SETMOUSE ;-) DARN!!! I just read Dan's post. I thought I was _SO_ bright... Just a few minutes ago, I was trying to fill the outside of a great clip-art of a plane I had to make it a watchable desktop. It's almost impossible to make the fill paterns match in any software. I thought it'd be nice if the desktop fill was still applied around a picture when it's centered... Yanick ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 44 Thu Oct 13, 1994 T.CARMAN [Tom Carman] at 01:29 MDT Happy Hacker, Dan, Al, and Papageno, Setting SETMOUSE.PRG to singletask does eliminate some fragmentation, since when I booted with it set to multitask and with XCONTROL on I would get 5 blocks of memory. I still find, however, that AUTOMOUSE.PRG running in the AUTO folder uses slightly less memory than SETMOUSE.PRG when all other factors remain unchanged. As for the behaviour of XCONTROL, I have all my CPXs set to be non-resident. I have also tried resorting my AUTO folder and the order of my accessories. I even tried turning off all the settings in my ICDBOOT.SYS and removing my boot- floppy with the boot-sector that kicks my Turbo25 into high gear (boot-sector written by WRTBT504.PRG) and still I boot with 3 blocks if I am running XCONTROL.ACC and NEOQUEUE. I have noticed, however, that if I eliminate NEOQUEUE or XCONTROL that comes down to 2 blocks. The strange thing is that if I run NEOCNTRL and NEOQUEUE I get 2 blocks. Happy Hacker, Why would you want to run two Control panels at the same time? Papageno, I notice you are running on a TT. I have been doing this testing on a MEGA ST with a Turbo25 accelerator. I have a TT at the office and although I have noticed different results there I have not had time to investigate that fully. The TT, since it has a 68030, will handle memory better, to my understanding. That may be partly responsible here. I did wonder if XCONTROL assigned a block of memory for the CPXs, but the extra block of memory only seems to appear if I boot with NEOQUEUE, so that seems to blow that theory out of the water. All, This is not a serious problem, but I am trying to see what configuration brings the least fragmentation upon bootup. I also wanted Dan to be aware of the behavior of SETMOUSE and its slightly higher memory requirements. Thank you for the tip about setting it to singletask. I have made progress. A couple of days ago I was booting with 5 blocks of memory, now it is down to 3 and I know how to get it down to 2. I'm simply wondering why the combination of XCONTROL and NEOQUEUE produces that extra block. Tom Carman (The Sermonator) ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 45 Thu Oct 13, 1994 T.PATRICK5 [Happy Hacker] at 02:35 PDT Tom, I use NeoControl for the color, keyclick, mouse, etc., and Xcontrol for the stuff NeoControl doesn't do. I don't use any CPX that duplicates a function of NeoControl. I think I'm just using the Clipboard, Show Cookies, Printer and Modem CPXs (not using NeoQueue because I have another spooler and they don't get along). That's the nice thing about Xcontrol... you can use as much, or as little as you want. Instead of renaming my CPXs to CPZ (or some other silly criptic thing) I just have an ACTIVE.CPX folder, and an INACTIVE.CPX folder, and I just move what I need where I need it. Aloha, from the Happy Hacker! (Tim) ... FaST Technology Turbo25 inside! ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 46 Thu Oct 13, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:34 EDT Keith's app is the only trashcan of its kind that works with DATAlited partitions. It also maintains the RESCUE folder, so that stuff is killed off by date and folder size. And it's fully configurable. for anyone who is not using the Neo trashcan, it's the only other choice. I never leave the home row without it. :-) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 48 Thu Oct 13, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 12:54 EDT Tom, It all has to do with memory allocation, and who does what when. Probably, were you to change the running order of your DA's you'd get different results. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 49 Thu Oct 13, 1994 K.GERDES [TraceTech] at 18:29 CDT Mike Allen, >BLiTTER in the F030 could not be turned off because, among other >things, it was being used for DMA data transfers to/from the hard disk >interfaces. At some point I think Atari Dev decided that the Blitter was better than the (16 MHz) 030 for VDI use so they hardwired the Blitter ON. AHDI has a flag for CPU or Blitter transfers. IDE drive transfers on the Falcon are handled by a tight CPU 'move.l' loop. On the ST Book, AHDI uses the Blitter. It really is a neat trick to use the Blitter for DMA transfers! >I would imagine that turning the BLiTTER off would lead to many >strange happenings! Actually you are just setting an option of whether or not to use the Blitter. At the GEM Desktop on Mega's & STe's, think of this as a configuration flag for drawing routines. When you deselect the Blitter dropdown option (no checkmark), things slowdown. This particular option was removed in TOS4's NewDesktop. - Keith ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 50 Fri Oct 14, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 00:37 EDT Dan - Just a quick note which may already have been reported, and/or fixed: I've been attempting to copy full partitions (6-15 megs) from one part. to another in Neo4. (Neo4 run as shell with Geneva 003) It no work-ee so good. Whether I drag and drop the partition icon or select all files and drag them to the new partition I get bombed out after it has copied around 400 files. Bounced back to the Geneva NoDesktop. Do I need to set up some kind of NPI to access the extended argumeent passing for multiple files, like the README (?) said re: TRASHCAN.NPG? Thanks, Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 51 Fri Oct 14, 1994 M.POCHE [Mick] at 00:22 CDT Tim, >Instead of renaming my CPXs to CPZ (or some other silly criptic >thing) I just have an ACTIVE.CPX folder, and an INACTIVE.CPX folder, and I >just move what I need where I need it. Why not just use the XControl panel to set the CPX's to active/inactive, then have it re-load them? ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 52 Fri Oct 14, 1994 K.BALLANTYNE [Kit] at 03:19 MDT Dan, I just got NeoDesk 4 and happen to love it. Thanks for calling with the answer to the loading problem I was having. Since that time I have been using Neo and checking out every feature and reading the manual and just plain having a whale of a time. Sure makes Geneva look and act better! This is the best combo I have ever seen. The whole reason I am writing this note is to compliment you and Gribniff on a truly excellent product. I'm doing this because so many people have to write to you with problems or alleged bugs or whatever and they (we) sometimes forget how powerful the product is, how much we get out of it and what a great value for the money it is. So keep up the extremely good work and I'll go back to play-testing it! ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 53 Fri Oct 14, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:35 EDT Tim, CPZ is hardly cryptic. :-) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 54 Fri Oct 14, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 11:24 EDT Everyone, A neat little trick when it comes to CPX's: I have a large number of CPX's (most of which I don't use except for occasional testing) and I am often frustrated by the fact that the CPX's in XCONTROL's activate/deactivate list are not in alphabetical order. So, I decided to force the CPX's I have into alphabetical order by moving them all into NeoDesk's file clipboard, opening a window to the clipboard (sorted by Name), selecting All, and then dragging them back to the CPX directory. This rewrites them in alpha order. Kit, Thanks for the kind words! Matt, There is a problem I know of that can cause a crash if you get too many file name conflicts during a single copy operation. Was this, perhaps, what you were hitting? If not, then it may have been a 40-folder problem. I routinely copy one HD partition to another by files and it so far has worked fine for me. The trashcan can work with an NPI to pass multiple files to it, and if you use the trashcan as an NPG, I suggest you use the NPI method. I'm doubting that this has anything to do with the problems you are having using the trashcan, though. If you have other TTP programs that can use extended argument passing (most programs can't) then you can just turn that option on in the parameters for Execution dialog when you go to run the TTP in question. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 55 Fri Oct 14, 1994 A.PETRIE1 [Suzie/AL] at 18:04 EDT Dan: I just got around to installing Neo4 overall it is quite nice, but I have some Bitches and questions. 1. I know piracy is a problem but with Geneva and neo4 both Prgs post registration info at boot up with a couple seconds delay, several other progs in my bootup also have delays built in. All these delays add up to a longer boot time than needed. Maybe you could instead at some point in time just post the registration info as part of the menu bar. If the programs are actually doing something else during this delay time please accept my Apologies for this minor gripe. 2. I use Xboot III as a boot manager, which although a Gribnif product could be contributing or solving my problem. I am using a MSTE4 with tos 2.05. when I try to change My resolutions using the video modes in Neo I also must change the Inf file in Xboot or I get 3 bombs. At present to change color resolutions I reboot and select a setup from Xboot without doing anything in Neo. When I first got the MSTE you helped me get around a similar problem by deleting either the Desktop info file or the Newdesk info file. Is this my problem again, or will I always as long as I use Xboot have to select defferent setup files to change resolution. Although I can be retrained, my wife would like it to be back to where she just selects from neo to change resolutions. The primary reason I want to keep the boot manager is often when I just want to check aladdin for messages or something where I just want to do one thing there is no need to multitask. I dont want to use the overhead Geneva requires. Also my wife dosn't want to learn to close programs under Geneva and complains about running out of Memory. Thanks AL P ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 56 Fri Oct 14, 1994 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 18:39 EDT With ALL the problems that are associated with changing resolutions form the desktop, why do people insist on doing it knowing it causes problems and then gripe about it. To get a good clean resolution change, you must reboot and select a setup to go to that resolution. Some programs (ACCs mainly) just cannot handle it. The above is not directed at any one person. It's just that it is well documented/known to be a problem but people insist on doing it and then gripe. A few more seconds isn't going to kill you. I just thought I would say something finally about this after years of reading about people having this problem, know what the problem is (the way they are doing things) and continue to gripe. There is a set of rules/patterns that you must follow. If you don't, then don't gripe when it doesn't work right. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 57 Fri Oct 14, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 18:21 CDT Dan, I also have experienced mass copy or move with many files sometimes will bomb out back to the Geneva screen. I'm stille getting a few macro messages the the screen has changed and FWIW The Neocontrol screen saver will not enable with the CDII installed. Frank L ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 58 Fri Oct 14, 1994 A.PETRIE1 [Suzie/AL] at 19:40 EDT > With ALL the problems that are associated with changing resolutions > form the desktop, why do people insist on doing it knowing it causes > problems and then gripe about it. Wayne: I'm not sure about the others, but having the options there at the desktop sort of implies that it should work, and work right! Neodesk does it's own reboot when you attempt to change resolutions and therefore should eliminate problems with ACC's. The problem that I am having is more related to poor handling of the various Inf files involved. AL P ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 59 Fri Oct 14, 1994 Y.DUFRESNE [Papageno] at 20:22 EDT Tom, Maybe you should stop worrying about 3 k worth of memory. The number of blocks is not that important either. If you are to optimize this, do it for an uptimum biggest block and not for a smallr number of blocks. Yanick ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 60 Fri Oct 14, 1994 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 22:03 EDT Al P., It's not a problem with Neodesk. It's a problem with programs (ACCs) that goes back to TOS where TOS did not pass on the information to programs that a resolution change was about to take place. Since TOS did not pass on this information, programmers could not place code into their programs to check for this. This is the info I have. If it is incorrect, someone please correct me. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 61 Fri Oct 14, 1994 K.SPRINGER1 [FROZEN NORTH] at 19:38 PDT AL P, Well, making the very large assumption that Neo4, Geneva, and XBOOT do not suffer any glitches that will cause failure, you should be able to select your video mode resolution in Neo4 and make the swap painlessly w/XBOOT installed. Frank L and I both have TT's and he was having the same or similar problem with his. Might I suggest you read the messages of......oh, last 2 weeks or so of the XBOOT topic. I reconnected my color monitor to my TT just play with this, and now have all things set to change desktop rezzes just fine. Ken S. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 62 Fri Oct 14, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 23:10 EDT Dan, I don't know how the 'folders' are used, but I through ICD's boot software, I have 200 folders added. I would have thought this would be enough, but as I said, I don't know. I didn't hit _any_ name conflicts. I had just re-formatted a new external HD and was copying some existing partitions to it. Worked fine from the GEM desktop. Guess I'll just allow it to slip into the First Boot catagory for now. Use a work around for large file moves, and fix it later. Thanks anyway, Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 63 Sat Oct 15, 1994 B.AEIN [B Man] at 00:10 EDT Dan, On my F030 my blitter is currently turned off. That is way I am seeing that weird fade when I run a prg. The blitter CAN be effected on the F030 because I now need to run Gembench 3 to turn the blitter on. Please look in to this as I see a doubling in the blitting speed in Gembench when I turn the blitter back on. I can't seem to get the system to turn the Blitter bak on for good, maybe I need to change the desktop.inf? I would like to see features in Neo that do the following: A way to move the window without having to grab the move bar, it would be great if we could click in between icons to move the window. I would love to see a way to put a pop-up menu in the window so that the window can be moved and resized without doing it manual. An option in Neo that allows the user to imitate shift-clicking without holding down shift. Sort of the way maxiFile allows one to select more than one file at a time for file maintinence. I guess if you could hold the right button down to imitate the shift key that would be easy enough and not cause problems with regular file selection. What is it (feature): This would allow one to click on a file at the desktop and it would allow one to write a short description of what the file is and what other files it belongs with. It could be shown as part of the info at the bottom of the window when this file is high lighted. This feature could be turned on and off and it would load the info from the HD. A System wide file would be used so that if a file is moved to a new HD partition, Neodesk would still show info on it. If the file has a name change, Neo would ask the user if they want Neo to copy over it's original descripton or create a new one. One would be able to search and sort this list to find certain files. This is another way to sort files besides the regular attributes. In a way this is like Maxifile 3's coments files, but it would be a hell of a lot more powerful in that you could search and sort by this, and then move or delete these files. It would be very nice if there was a feature in Neo that would allow searching for words or strings in files. I have seen utilites that will do this, but we need this powerful feature in Neo so that we can Filter and move these found files around. Neo is not holding Keypress on my F030, has anyone else noticed that you cannot run macros without waiting for the first macro to finish? Thanks Bman ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 64 Fri Oct 14, 1994 T.CARMAN [Tom Carman] at 22:35 MDT Papageno, Who said anything about being worried. I thought I clearly stated that this was not a big problem, however, it is attention to detail and the small things that has brought about some of the greatest discoveries in this world. I have an enquiring mind and I find it pays to ask questions. With someone like Dan around to answer I'd be a fool not to ask them. I hope you didn't mistake my questions for pickiness. Neodesk 4 is a great product and Dan is making it better. I love it. I just like to know why things do what they do. Tom Carman (The Sermonator) ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 65 Sat Oct 15, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 00:57 CDT Al P, When using a TT there was no problem changing rez's while using Geneva/NeoDesk, if you are having a problem changing rez's check out the ACC's you running. If you are using a Graphics board you will not be able to change rez's like a standard TT, in this case it will take a re-boot and choose the rez with the graphics board software. Frank L ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 66 Fri Oct 14, 1994 J.YOUNG57 [AtariFan] at 23:15 PDT I guess this is a message to Gribnif Software. I have decided to upgrade my NeoDesk 3 to version 4, but I need the upgrade information such as price, address, etc. Thanks for your help. J.YOUNG57 ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 67 Sat Oct 15, 1994 T.PATRICK5 [Happy Hacker] at 00:00 PDT Al P, I don't understand your trouble? If you are using a boot manager (X-Boot) you don't need to use the desk to change resolution. You just reboot and select a different configuration from your boot manager. In fact, you CAN'T change resolution using Neo's rebooting system, because your boot manager re-writes the INF files every time you boot, so any change Neo makes is lost. Just set up different configurations for each resolution you use and install them in X-Boot.... simple! If you have GEneva or TOS-4 you can change resolution from Neo without rebooting, but as Wayne said, you are asking for trouble! It's not Neo's fault that many ACCessories are poorly written and can't handle rez changes. The option DOES work "right" if you are using properly written software, but Gribnif has no control over your bad software habits. *8^) BTW, rez changes from the GEM desktop will crash as well with the wrong ACCessories. The problem is with the ACCessories, not Neo. Under Geneva/Neo-4 I run TEN desk accessories, and I can change rez just fine. Aloha, from the Happy Hacker! (Tim) ... FaST Technology Turbo25 inside! ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 68 Sat Oct 15, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 12:18 CDT Dan, I have noticed that the 'Help' files within the 'Dialogs' have cosmetic problems and cuts of the first few letters of the file and has problems with placement of the reader while using the CDII card. I have not tried this in all resolutions except my 800x608. Frank L ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 69 Sat Oct 15, 1994 J.BLOCKUS [JACKIE] at 10:26 PDT I tried to print the screen by going to File Menu... Print Desktop... NOTHING happens. I read the manual and there are no detailed setups. So I selected "Print Desktop" and nothing happened. Any suggestions and ideas? ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 70 Sat Oct 15, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 13:43 EDT Ah, Dan Wilga, the *best* trick is simply to use the Reorder function and put the CPXes in the order you WANT them to be in, not in alphanumerical order. You only see the first four, so I've made sure that they are the NVDI CPX, a calculator, the ADSCI CPX and the STFAX CPX. Wayne, I'm with you. I've owned 16/32bit Ataris since '85, and have never switched resolutions without rebooting. Frank, Dan says BLANK.PRG will let the CDII screen respond to the screen saver, but I've never gotten it to work. I may be doing something wrong. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 71 Sat Oct 15, 1994 F.GORON [Frank] at 16:30 EDT Has anyone tried changing Video Modes (with a Falcon, or with Geneva) with Setmouse set up as a single-tasking app? I'm doing it on a TT 3.05 with Geneva installed, and when the video mode change gets to reloading Setmouse, it hangs. I wonder if changing video modes with a single-tasking app is a problem? Frank G ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 72 Sat Oct 15, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 17:53 CDT Al, Just tried 'BLANK' in a number of locations in the "AUTO" folder, but like you get nothing - Oh well - back to Daffy Duck walking across the screen (G). I wonder about running 'BLANK' through Geneva's 'GEM.CNF file??Mmmmmmmmmm - might give it a shot later. Frank L ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 73 Sat Oct 15, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 19:20 EDT Tim is right. If you use a boot manager, reboot to change resolutions. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 74 Sat Oct 15, 1994 S.DEITZ [Steve] at 19:51 EDT Bman, Try DCMSHIFT to map the right mouse button to any or all of the modifier keys. ----STEVE---- ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 75 Sat Oct 15, 1994 K.SPRINGER1 [FROZEN NORTH] at 17:41 PDT Dan, Has anyone reported any problems with a disappearing mouse that cannot be restored when using Harleking 3 with Gen/Neo4? If not, I'll do some playing around to try to determine exactly what steps cause the problem. Ken S. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 76 Sat Oct 15, 1994 ST.WALLY [ _Wally_ ] at 21:10 EDT Howdy, Jackie, I think you need to have the printer portion of Xcontrol configured and active to print a screen. Considering that folks are prolly using the Neo Control Panel, you'd have to make sure the printer was configured through that. That's the first place I'd start. If you are printing to a laser printer, you may need to add a form-feed to get it out of the printer. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 77 Sat Oct 15, 1994 A.PETRIE1 [Suzie/AL] at 22:11 EDT >If you use a boot manager, reboot to change resolutions. I know I should reboot to change resolutions. It's just that since early 1987 everybody in my family has been able to change rez from the desktop and without any problems except loosing 32k every rez change. With the same setup that I have now, only with Neo 3 installed we could change rez from the Neo desktop, the system would reboot and come up in the desired rez with no apparent problems. With Neo4 installed I must now reboot, wait for xboot to show, up select the right setup, and away I go. But now I must explain to my wife and son that this new and improved method of changing rez is a feature, not a fault. AL P ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 78 Sun Oct 16, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 00:15 EDT Al P. - Can you set Xboot up so you can call it from the desktop? MouseBoot will do this. That way, instead of hitting reset, and waiting for Xboot, the family could say, click on it's icon on the desktop and then select the desired preset. The machine will still reboot, but I guess I'm thinking that clicking on an icon, is more like the menu pull down/mouse click their used to. MouseBoot is in the lib's here on GEnie if you can't launch XBoot that way. Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 79 Sun Oct 16, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 01:06 CDT Al P. You can execute XBOOT from the desktop and make your selection and it will do everything for you. That is exactly the way I change rez usining a graphic card. Frank L ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 80 Sun Oct 16, 1994 T.CARMAN [Tom Carman] at 00:14 MDT AL P, I just tried the rez switch with my setup here and everything worked flawlessly, just as you describe under NEO 3. I am not using XBOOT, but I am using MouseBoot 4. When I switch rez from NEO 4 Mouseboot does not appear. Neo reloads all the accessories, and switches to the new rez. I'm not sure what is causing your problem but try a little more experimentation. Something in your setup is amiss. I was curious to see if running Mouseboot after Geneva and Neoload would make any difference and I am afraid it didn't. So the solution doesn't lie there. I'm not a programmer, but I guess it is possible that XBOOT hooks into the system differently than Mouseboot. Perhaps Dan can shed some light on that. Tom Carman (The Sermonator) ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 81 Sat Oct 15, 1994 J.TOWLER1 [John] at 23:59 PDT Dan I've found that the Neo Control Panel corner clock doesn't always come on when I boot, even though I've saved the desktop file with the clock turned on. I am using Superboot, which copies the desktop file to be used to the Neodesk folder, but I've checked the files, and they show the clock listed, as below: ;Control: ampm,clock,save,mins,caches,repeat1,repeat2,click,bell, ; mclick,floppyA,floppyB,volume/balance,treble/bass CONTROL 1 1 0 5 15 300 40 0 1 3 3 3 5152 102 Also, when you create a Program Info File, are the settings in that file used everytime the program is run or do you have to run the program from the .NPI file for those settings to be active. For instance, if I double click on a .DOC file to run my word processor and load a document, will the settings in the .NPI file be used? - John ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 82 Sun Oct 16, 1994 T.PATRICK5 [Happy Hacker] at 01:15 PDT Jackie, You need to give us more information... A LOT MORE INFORMATION! What computer, what rezolution, what printer, and what software are you running. Print-Screen should work from any standard ST rezolution to a (9-pin) Dot- Matrix printer (although you may need to set the line length to 960 for Epson compatibles to get the whole screen). For any non-standard set up you will need to add a special printer driver. John, You must run the NPI file to get the options. For your example, just install the NPI file as your DOC application, instead of the program. Don't know about the corner clock, but I'd suspect your boot manager is overwriting your INF file with an older one that has the wrong options saved. Try running without it and see if your problem goes away? Frank, The Falcon must be strange... SETMOUSE is a program, not an ACCessory, so it shouldn't be reloaded be a rez change? Or are you running it from someplace other than the AUTO folder? Aloha, from the Happy Hacker! (Tim) ... FaST Technology Turbo25 inside! ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 83 Sun Oct 16, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 06:57 EDT Frank, You can always just run SETMOUSE from the desktop after you change modes. I don't have a Falcon so I can't replicate the problem you describe. Frank, I've tried BLANK in every which way but loose. Before Dawn came up the winner. :-) Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 84 Sun Oct 16, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:44 EDT Wally, No, you don't need the Control Panel configuration. At least I don't. (Hmm, maybe GEM-Spooler is handling that....) Al P., Yep a feature. The point is, your boot manager won't do anything unless you reboot. Matt, You're right. You could run XBoot and let IT reboot. I do this with my own custom boot manager. John, What Tim sez is right. Just run the NPI. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 85 Sun Oct 16, 1994 L.BUDNICK [Lorne] at 08:59 CDT I don't know if this is a Neo4 or Geneva question, but it seems as though some accessories require a 'double-click' to select a choice. Has anyone else experienced this symptom? Not a big deal, but just wondered why this is happening. The 'datalite.acc' is an example of one such .acc that demostrates this tendency consistently. Lorne.... ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 86 Sun Oct 16, 1994 A.PETRIE1 [Suzie/AL] at 12:20 EDT Matt: Thanks Having the boot manager on the desktop seems to work fine, and seems to be a viable compromise. Thanks! AL P ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 87 Sun Oct 16, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 12:17 CDT Lorne, If you are using Neo/Geneva or even Geneva alone, be sure and checkout which method you are executing the ACC's, if you use the "Desk" option ACC's will execute with one 'click', However if you use the "Taskman" menu you need to double click. I'm not sure is this is an answer or not. Frank L ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 88 Sun Oct 16, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 15:42 CDT Dan, and to all others who think I have screw loose, I mentioned awhile back, "I get a 'BinK' between Geneva and NeoDesk. My 'Bink' is back, after disappearing a day later. No problem tho' and I'm not loosing my mind, just getting forgetful, all you have to do is wait until another day comes around that you don't have marked as an important day in CAL63. &^%^$%^*(&* (G) Frank L ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 89 Sun Oct 16, 1994 MUSE [Tomas] at 14:56 PDT Frank, If you do indeed find that you have a screw loose, you are required by Oklahoma law to move to Southern California. :-) ===Tomas=== ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 90 Sun Oct 16, 1994 F.GORON [Frank] at 19:10 EDT Tim, Setmouse is indeed a PRG, and I've been running it with a RUN statement in Geneva's GEM.CNF file. And I never saw the Setmouse.prg name at the top of the screen when booting up. BUT when I changed it to a single- tasker, based on some folk's suggestions to do so to reduce memory fragmentation, the Setmouse.prg filename DID appear at the top of the screen during bootup. This isn't a problem, but I did notice that when using the video mode option in ND4, there was no problem changing rez with setmouse set up as a multi-tasker. But when I changed it to a single-tasker, then the rez-changing stopped working. And it would freeze at the point that Setmouse.prg's filename was showing at the top of the screen. Hope this cleared up my earlier statement. BTW this is on a TT, not a Falcon. Frank G ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 91 Sun Oct 16, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 19:16 EDT No prob, Al P. - After all, that's what we're here for, isn't it? -=-=-=-=- Tomas - Hiya bud! Gee, that's a great law. Good thing New York hasn't got one like it or 90% of the populus would have to move! (me, included!) Thanks for the laugh, Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 92 Sun Oct 16, 1994 K.GERDES [TraceTech] at 19:15 CDT Bman, >On my F030 my blitter is currently turned off. That is way I am >seeing that weird fade when I run a prg. The blitter CAN be effected >on the F030 because I now need to run Gembench 3 to turn the blitter >on. Please look in to this as I see a doubling in the blitting speed >in Gembench when I turn the blitter back on. You are using NVDI, correct? As an alternate VDI it could have an option to use the Blitter or not use it. I have assumed TOS4's VDI relies heavily on the Blitter, so the XBIOS Blitter() call's "On/Off" option was forced 'On'. NVDI can intercept that call and do what it wants. >I can't seem to get the system to turn the Blitter bak on for good, >maybe I need to change the desktop.inf? If you copied the NEWDESK.INF -which has the Desktop's Blitter status flag- from another computer, then I suppose it could enter into the picture. I would check NVDI first. You may want to uninstall NVDI and see what's up with the Blitter situation, and then reinstall it and experiment. - Keith ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 93 Sun Oct 16, 1994 ST.WALLY [ _Wally_ ] at 20:52 EDT Howdy, Al, I almost hesitated even mentioning it, but I do know that you need the Control Panel to do a screen print from the GEM desktop. On NeoDesk, I'm not sure how it's handled. Something has to tell the system how, and where the screen-image is going to be printed - that's for sure. :-) Wally ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 94 Sun Oct 16, 1994 G.LEONE [Gerry] at 20:14 CDT Frank L >have to do is wait until another day comes around that you don't have marked >as an important day in CAL63. &^%^$%^*(&* (G) > > Frank L Geez am I glad you discovered the reason. I was noticing the same thing -- sometimes I get the "bink," sometimes I don't. Now I know why. I think. -Gerry ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 95 Sun Oct 16, 1994 J.BATES15 [JAB] at 23:41 EDT Dan, Here's an interesting feature. When I create a macro and assign it a key, and install, my Falcon will not run any macro from the keyboard. If I then open the execute macro dialog and run any macro from there, upon returning to the desktop, Neo recognizes keyboard input for macros again. Just thought you would like to know. Later, JAB ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 96 Sun Oct 16, 1994 H.WOLFE1 [Harvey] at 23:45 EDT > Has anyone reported any problems with a disappearing mouse that cannot > be restored when using Harleking 3 with Gen/Neo4? Ken, this very annoying problem is due to something in the way Harlekin and Geneva interact. As far as I know, it has nothing to do with Neodesk 4, nor does it occur when Harlekin is running under ordinary TOS, nor does it occur with Geneva and any other programs. I've reported it to Gribnif, Oregon Research and to HiSoft, and hopefully the Harlekin programmer will eventually get around to doing something about it. At present, I have found that the easiest way of dealing with the problem is to run Geneva's HELP program whenever the mouse disappears. However, I just noticed that Wally has Emailed a program to you that may be even more convenient to use. Harvey Wolfe ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 97 Sun Oct 16, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 23:31 CDT Tomas, If I could afford it I would sure move back to that area, quakes and all (G). Matt, What are you trying say? Could be you want me further away than we are already????? (G) Frank L ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 98 Sun Oct 16, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 23:47 CDT Gerry, Just think 'Bink' :-)...... Frank L ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 99 Mon Oct 17, 1994 MUSE [Tomas] at 07:17 PDT Frank, Come on out! The Heck with the quakes, it's the absense of mosquitoes that makes it for me. ===Tomas=== ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 100 Mon Oct 17, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 15:57 EDT JAB, That's a really weird one. Do the keyboard equivalents for menus stop working, too? How about things like Shift-C? Lorne, Do you mean you have to double-click on a button in the DA's window, or that a double-click is needed to open the DA in the first place? Does the button select if you click once and hold the button down? If so, then I think 004 of Geneva will fix this. John T, Well, as far as the clock goes, I think the important thing is going to be trying to narrow things down a little. When doesn't it come on? What set is being loaded? Is there any chance that two copies of NEOCNTRL get run somehow? If you want the NPI's settings to take effect, you have to run the NPI not the PRG. You can actually Install the NPI as an Application with the DOC extension if you want. Ken S, I'm not sure if it was you who mentioned it previously, but I know someone did. Is it any specific series of actions, or does just opening it cause the problem? Also, if you use Control-Shift-Alt-keypad period at NeoDesk, that will turn it back on at least until you use Harlekin again. Frank G, It shouldn't make any difference whether SETMOUSE (or any other application) is single-tasking during a rez change. I more strongly suspect a rampant DA. Jackie, Print Desktop just calls a built-in ROM routine, which is broken in some resolutions on the Falcon. It also sometimes seems to stop working after a resolution change. It's a bug in the ROMs, not NeoDesk. If you try Alt-Help, that doesn't work, either. J.Young, You can get NeoDesk by sending both of your original disks back to us, along with $25 + $3 S&H (in the US). We'll send you a completely new manual (not an addendum) in return. Be sure to use this address: PO Box 779 Northampton, MA 01061-0779 Bman, Well, if the Blitter is coming up turned off, then maybe it is your NEWDESK.INF, as you suggested. Try deleting the one you have and rebooting. Then create it again from scratch. The rest of your comments I'll consider. They're pretty major for right now, though. Frank L, NEOCNTRL's screen saver won't work with the CD II, that's right. Maybe I'll get around to hacking that in sometime soon (it's not an easy thing to do.) I never actually tried BLANK on the CD. I'm surprised it doesn't work... I'm going to need some more details about the help problem. I assume you mean you selected the HELP button in the "Dailogs" dialog, right? Also, are you using Geneva? Does the help viewer itself come up in a window, or a dialog? Al P, During the delays, both Geneva and NeoDesk are definitely doing something. In the case of NeoDesk, it is decompressing quite a bit of code. If you have XBoot, and are not using Geneva, you should only use XBoot to select the resolution. Changing this in NeoDesk will not have any effect anyway, since XBoot will overwrite the change NeoDesk makes to DESKTOP/NEWDESK.INF. However, if you have Geneva present you can change resolutions from NeoDesk or the Task Manager. If you are getting a crash in this case, it is most likely due to a desk accessory that does not like to be unloaded. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 101 Mon Oct 17, 1994 F.GORON [Frank] at 19:02 EDT Dan, I'm afraid it's not an acc that's causing the S-Ting Setmouse to hang during a rez change. I tried it with : Auto - Jar30,Geneva,Neoload Accs - None I disabled my INF,MAC,NOT, & NIC files to make sure one of them wasn't munged. GEM.CNF - RUN setmouse, SHELL Neodesk.exe and it still hangs on setmouse during a rez change. Any other suggestions? Anyone else experience this? Thanks Frank G PS: just in case I wasn't clear about it, setmouse does NOT hang during a rez change when it's set for multi-tasking. Frank ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 102 Mon Oct 17, 1994 L.BUDNICK [Lorne] at 18:03 CDT Frank, Thanks for the reply. I tried it both ways with the results being equal. In either case I require two clicks. Oh well, like I said it is NO BIG DEAL. Lorne.... ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 103 Mon Oct 17, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 20:05 CDT Dan, Any 'Help File' called from any dialog box will cause cosmetic problems with the scroll bar. This includes the 'About NeoDesk' info file when you click on the small button in lower RH corner. The 'Desktop' item in the 'Settings' menu has the same problem as above. It also has a problem after clicking the 'Desktop Notes...' button; clicking the OK button returns you to desktop - 'Settings' designation in the menu bar says highlited and the 'Desktop Notes...' button stays on the desktop- if you click randomly around this you will eventualy click on another button from the 'Desktop' menu - if you click on 'Destop Notes...' while it is on the desktop, it will bring this item back into view. If you 'Cancel' or if while on the desktop use a S, Alt, Undo will do away with the highlited 'Settings' and close out completely. Pressing 'Help' brings up the help files with no problems cosmetic or otherwise. Help files from all dialogs have the cosmetic problem with the scroll bar on the right of the help screen. All of the above was check out using Neodesk 4 with and without Geneva and in TT Med and ST hi resolutions using the TT drivers and NVDI with SLCT_DEV.PRG disabled, bypassing CDII. 800x608x16 and all other resolutions with the CDII all of the above takes place, however, an added problem with the dialog help files occurs. the 'window' comes up flush top and to the left, but the 'Text Screen' will appear to the right of the help screen covering the scroll bar to the right, also one to three characters on the extreme left of the screen do not show. In a Nutshell the Text screen does not align to the left inside of the Help window. It appears to center left and right*. Top and bottom seem ok. The Help file pulled up by using the 'Help" works good with no problems except when the close gadget is clicked or the "Quit" menu item is clicked it does close but flashes about twice. I am also getting some "Desktop has changed" dialog boxes using macros to execute a program. These were my original macros, should I try just re-create them? Sure hope the above is understandable. * Meaning centered left and right on the complete screen, in the middle left and right. the top and bottom are ok. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 104 Mon Oct 17, 1994 G.LEONE [Gerry] at 20:51 CDT > Come on out! The Heck with the quakes, it's the absense of mosquitoes that >makes it for me. Wait a sec here... You guys get great weather all year, sun most days, and DON'T HAVE MOSQUITOES?????? ... aw man... -Gerry ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 105 Mon Oct 17, 1994 K.SPRINGER1 [FROZEN NORTH] at 19:19 PDT Harvey, Thanks for the reply. I won't waste a bunch of time sorting it out now. Has anyone responded to your report yet? Wally did send me the file, but haven't tried it yet. Dan, It was Harvey Wolfe, as you know by now. The Control-Shift-Alt-keypad period does _not_ work for me at Neodesk. Which is why I brought it up. Usually, I just use 2 of the module that come with Harlekin, the text editor, and the manager. I call both of them with keyboard macros, CTRL-keypad 1 and CTRL keypad 2 to be exact. These macros are Harlekin macros, as opposed to Neo4 macros (which I haven't figured out how to make the modules come up directly, without going through the Harlekin window, which I do not want) or Codekeys. Ken S. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 106 Mon Oct 17, 1994 L.BUDNICK [Lorne] at 22:29 CDT Dan, I think you have the double click situation that I raised nailed down. It is when I am within the accessory window itself that I have found it necessary to double-click. After reading your message, I tried holding the button down with a single click and that did in fact work. Thanks, Lorne.... ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 107 Mon Oct 17, 1994 M.POCHE [Mick] at 22:36 CDT Dan, I think I've finally tracked down the problem with window dropdown menus not responding. It happens whenever I run a program set to single-tasking with a macro. If I then switch over to NeoDesk, window dropdowns won't respond to mouse-clicks or hotkeys. They drop down when selected, but clicking on the selections does nothing. If I run the same programs from a drive window or a group, the problem doesn't appear. As long as I don't switch to NeoDesk while the single-tasking program is loaded, everything seems to be fine. Exiting the single-tasking program back to ND seems fine too. Hope that helps. Other than that little thing, I'm thrilled with ND4! - Mick ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 108 Mon Oct 17, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 22:53 CDT Dan, Re the previous post on the Dialog Help Cosmetic problems. I feel that these problems are certainly not of such a nature that they take anything away from this fine program. I mentioned them as a course of information and not complaint. The main 'Help File' is always available and rock steady. After reading your post again, I see I missed the 'Screen Saver' reference. I most certainly can appreciate the "complexity" of trying to get Geneva and NeoDesk coupled but to add the Crazy Dots graphics to these extremely powerful programs is indeed a nightmare to write with complete compatibility. Nothing in these 'small problems' that I or others could not work around with ease. I, of course, know how you can accoplish so much in such a short time - good thing you can Multi-Task now (G). Frank L Tomas, I just couldn't leave my Crickets all alone. Frank L ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 109 Mon Oct 17, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 23:15 CDT Mick, I'm using a TT, CDII, Geneva, NeoDesk and I have not had any problems such as you have mentioned. I run Aladdin with a 'Macro' then (off line of course) click on 'NeoDesk' - use a 'Macro' to load Pagestream I can use all the menus and load programs. Aladdin is 'Single tasking' while Pagestream is set to Multi-Task. Unless I missed something I'm puzzled. Frank L ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 110 Tue Oct 18, 1994 J.BATES15 [JAB] at 00:57 EDT Dan, It seems all keyboard input is blocked after creating a macro. Shift - C did nothing. For that matter, I can't use Control Esc to end the macro, I have to go to the menu to end it. They seem to work correctly after I run a macro from the dialog, and they work right if I haven't created any new macros this session. Frank, I'm seeing the Setmouse lockup on rez changes too. I have it running as singletasking before Neodesk in the Gem.cnf file. Later, JAB ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 111 Tue Oct 18, 1994 H.WOLFE1 [Harvey] at 01:22 EDT > Harvey, > > Thanks for the reply. I won't waste a bunch of time sorting it out now. Has > anyone responded to your report yet? Ken, when I spoke to Oregon Research, they said that the report had been forwarded to the programmer in Europe. Harvey ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 112 Tue Oct 18, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 02:22 EDT Frank L - ;^) I know _you_ know I was joking, but for any who don't... I didn't even realize my post could have been taken _that_ way. (blush) I was making a snyde comment on the state of the general populous here in N.Y. ! Frank... don't change (or move), 'babe', we love ya! Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 113 Tue Oct 18, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:39 EDT Lorne, DATAlite's manager, both as a DA and as a PRG, is one of those New Age German apps that was programmed to respond to the left or right buttons in the same way, even when the DL window is not in the foreground. Because Geneva already offers this (as does MultiTOS) -- by holding down the right button, you can operate a background window or dialog -- DATAlite seems to get confused. I've gotten around this by using overkill of a sort. I always boot up with the DC right-button utility (which turns a right click into a left double-click unless the right button is held down a little longer than usual), and just press the right button smartly; if DA doesn't see it as a left double-click, it surely will see it as a right click, and it always responds. BTW, that little utility is one of the finest pieces of freeware I know of. Tomas, But then they send you to Oregon. :-) Wally, Dag-nab it, I know you know that I know you know ... lost my train of thought at the station there! Anyway, what I was thinking was that once the CP setting for the printer is set, the INF file should contain it, and the CP wouldn't be needed again for that setting. I think that's the way it should work.... Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 114 Tue Oct 18, 1994 L.BUDNICK [Lorne] at 20:02 CDT Thanks Al. The ability to simply hold down the mouse button until the dialog is highlighted will work for me. This would seem to be a very minor inconvenience. This is especially true since Dan has already indicated that this situation will be resolved in the fairly near future. Lorne.... ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 115 Wed Oct 19, 1994 ST.WALLY [ _Wally_ ] at 00:05 EDT Howdy, Al, dude! I _never_ considered that...dag, the .INF file. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 116 Tue Oct 18, 1994 MUSE [Tomas] at 23:28 PDT Gerry, Fleas, we have fleas. :-( Frank, Matt, There are "loose screws" all over the country and the world. Fortunately, these people are usually caught and forced to run for public office. ===Tomas=== ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 117 Wed Oct 19, 1994 T.PATRICK5 [Happy Hacker] at 02:19 PDT Wally, You most deffinately do NOT need the control panel to print the desktop from GEM. Just hit ALT-HELP. You only need it if you are not using the printer port for your printer. I never used the control panel until recently, and I've done hundreds of screen dumps, from GEM, NeoDesk, Programs, even GAMES! Of course, you may not get a proper screen dump. It's set up for an Atari printer, which is a 9-pin dot-matrix with a line rezolution of 1280 dots. An Epson compatible will print, but the right edge gets cropped. Lasers, inkjets, etc. all require custom drivers (or Epson compatibility). Al, The CP settings are saved in NeoDesk's INF file and used by Neo, but GEM requires the CP to use the settings. Kind of a stupid design, really, the settings get saved, but only the Control Panel can use 'em. Aloha, from the Happy Hacker! (Tim) ... FaST Technology Turbo25 inside! ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 118 Wed Oct 19, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 12:17 EDT Tim & Al, NeoDesk will set the printer settings if you have set them (using NEOQUEUE) and then saved your INF file. You don't need to have any CP or even the queue loaded after that. You also don't absolutely need any CP at all. However, as Tim points out, the default line width for a screen dump is 1280 pixels, which is not all that common, so you probably want to do something to set it to the smaller size. Jackie's problem is totally unrelated to this discussion, since it stems from a bug in the Falcon TOS. JAB, I only ever start/end macros with Control-Esc, so maybe it's the particular sequence of things you are doing. How about if you just hit Control-Esc twice. Does this work to give you an empty macro? Mick, I just recorded a macro that runs a singletasking program, and then played it and switched back to NeoDesk which it was still running. The window dropdowns work fine. Might it be the particular app you are running this way? Lorne, Then it's probably something that is specific (more or less) to that DA. I have already made a change for Geneva 004 which should fix this type of thing for programs that use it. Frank L, My setup is almost identical to yours, and I've never seen that happen. I even use NVDI. Do you have the help viewer set to use a font other than the system font? Is it possible to move the viewer's window and have it start to line up properly? You should probably re-create your 001 macros that are causing problems with 002, yes. Frank G, Aha! I found a way to get it to happen. Yes, you will unfortunately, have to restore SETMOUSE to multitasking if you want to change rez. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 119 Wed Oct 19, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 18:15 CDT Matt, All done tounge in cheeck :-). Frank L ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 120 Wed Oct 19, 1994 J.BATES15 [JAB] at 20:36 EDT Dan, I can create an empty macro. If I try to create a macro that runs a program, the M in the menu bar disappears and the keyboard input is disabled. I do use the mouse to start my macro records. Sorry to hear about the Setmouse thing, I have seen the same problem, though I don't change rez very often. Is it a fixable thing? (eventually?) Later, JAB ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 121 Wed Oct 19, 1994 G.LEONE [Gerry] at 20:22 CDT Thomas -- > Fleas, we have fleas. :-( So did we. But they seemed to go away once we started bathing more regularly... -Gerry ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 122 Wed Oct 19, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 21:12 CDT Dan, The prblem with the Help files in the 'Dialogs' happens with or without NVDI. It does not seem to a problem with NVDI. I am using 'System Fonts' only. The "Settings" menu in the menu bar remains highlited and I am unable to move the 'Help' frame to try and align up with the 'Text'. I have also tried removing all ACC's except "Taskman", as well all Auto Folder programs except what is needed for Geneva, Neo and the system file FOLDR450.PRG. I have also tried removing all font names from the ASSIGN.SYS file. Frank L ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 123 Wed Oct 19, 1994 B.AEIN [B Man] at 22:56 EDT Dan, I am having the problem of Neo 4 making my windows snow white. It would be very nice to have 1 button that would set all the boarder and text colors black. I am manualy having to do a lot of clicking to get a window that I can see the gadgets. Clicking on use desktop color scheme does nothing to help the situation. Thanks Bman ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 124 Wed Oct 19, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 23:11 EDT ;^) ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 125 Wed Oct 19, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 23:56 CDT Dan, I have completely created all of my macros again and now, a new crop of the same message, some of the 'Desktop Changed' come up when I execute while some come up with the message when I come back to the menu. All in all there are more messages than ever. What can I possibly be doing wrong? Frank L ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 126 Thu Oct 20, 1994 ST.WALLY [ _Wally_ ] at 02:49 EDT Howdy, Happy Hacker, that's what I get for looking in the Atari manual. Thanks for clearing it up for me. Best regards, Wally ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 127 Thu Oct 20, 1994 T.PATRICK5 [Happy Hacker] at 00:59 PDT Wally, Hmmm... you read the manual, eh? Don't think I've ever tried that! *8^) Aloha, from the Happy Hacker! (Tim) ... FaST Technology Turbo25 inside! ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 128 Thu Oct 20, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 09:16 EDT Ben, Re: windows turning white. Is this in monochrome mode? When you say you have to do a lot of clicking to get a window that has visible gadgets, what are you clicking? It's possible when running in color to set the window gadgets to a color scheme that produces the same color for foreground and background in the lower left corner of Neo 4 windows, so the six little gadgets can't be seen. This occurs because Neo 4 takes the color scheme for these gadgets from the color scheme assigned to the close gadget, via WINCOLORS.CPX or its equivalent. Frank, I'd wonder if you have a mixed set of Neo 4 files. This macro behavior was seen (or at least a similiar effect was seen) in early betas, but the current version doesn't do that at all here, on both systems. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 129 Thu Oct 20, 1994 ST.WALLY [ _Wally_ ] at 10:44 EDT Howdy, Tim, Yeah, I read it, and a sad day it was. Wally ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 130 Thu Oct 20, 1994 F.GORON [Frank] at 18:26 EDT Dan, Does that apply only to SETMOUSE, or all S-T'ing apps? Thanks Frank G ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 131 Thu Oct 20, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 19:16 CDT Al, I don't understand what you mean by 'mixed set'. I have the same Macro's to run in each resolution. Enlighten me Guy, I could have messed up. Frank L ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 132 Thu Oct 20, 1994 M.POCHE [Mick] at 22:31 CDT Ok Dan, or anyone else.... Here's what's happening with the window dropdowns: I'm booting up with nothing but JAR20, Geneva 003, Task Manager ACC, and NeoDesk 4 002 on a MSTE 4, TOS 2.05. As soon as I get to ND, I run my macro to load Aladdin 1.62 (set to single- tasking). Once in Aladdin, I switch to ND. (Here's the newest discovery) If there was a window opened before loading Aladdin, all of it's functions work perfectly. If I open a second window, its dropdowns don't work (they drop, but the operations don't function). If I keep trying the non-operational window's dropdowns, I will usually get a 2 bomb bus error and ND will exit. I should also note that I was wrong in saying that it only did this when Aladdin is run from a macro. It happens when run from a window or desktop icon too. I've also noticed the same problem when using other single-tasking programs. This is very repeatable for me. I hope that someone else can duplicate it so I'll know it's not just me! I know I'm not going crazy...... you can even ask the flying monkeys that are sitting here on top of my monitor! They can tell ya... yeah..... they know me well.... too well!!!! ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 133 Fri Oct 21, 1994 J.TOWLER1 [John] at 00:26 PDT Dan, Oops! I found the reason the corner clock wasn't coming on when the desktop appeared (which was 100% of the time actually). I had an old version of the control panel in my MultiDesk folder. When I put the new control panel in there, as a resident DA of course, everything was fine. So NeoDesk 4 is innocent; I just had a neuron misfire is all. - John ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 134 Fri Oct 21, 1994 T.PATRICK5 [Happy Hacker] at 03:50 PDT Mick, Sorry... works fine here. I switch back and fourth between Neo-4 and Aladdin in Geneva all the time, and the only problem is when I forget and run a second single-tasking app. Aloha, from the Happy Hacker! (Tim) ... FaST Technology Turbo25 inside! ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 135 Fri Oct 21, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 09:03 EDT Frank, I was thinking of a mixed set of RSC and executable files. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 136 Fri Oct 21, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 13:24 EDT Mick, Well I just tried yet again to reproduce this. Does it only happen with Aladdin? I tried it with Arabesque as the program I ran, and things worked fine. Frank G, It would apply to any STing app run from GEM.CNF. Frank L, After our conversation on the phone, I too was able to come up with a macro that would give that message when it should not, so you are not alone. I'm going to look into the cause. JAB, I still don't have any ideas about the keyboard problem. Can anyone else get this to happen? The setmouse thing will be fixed in Geneva 004. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 137 Fri Oct 21, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 19:22 EDT Mick, I'm sorry too, but on my MSTe (4 meg, TOS 2.06, G, Neo4, and a host of AUTO/ACC's) all dropdowns work fine. Run Aladdin, (S/T) switch to NeoD and open two windows. Everything works. Same with 3 or 4 windows. Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 138 Fri Oct 21, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 19:29 CDT Al, No, no mixed sets, all were in indiviual folders. Frank L Dan, I did notice that it seems that the macros giving the message were set to run under Geneva's "Multi-Task". This does not mean that I was using more than one at a time, just that they are set for Multitasking. Frank L ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 139 Fri Oct 21, 1994 MUSE [Tomas] at 19:12 PDT Al, I tried your suggestion and renamed NeoDesk.EXE to .PRG and ran it from Geneva, but it didn't help. An alert pops up to say that NEOLOAD must be present. ===Tomas=== ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 140 Sat Oct 22, 1994 M.POCHE [Mick] at 00:47 CDT Dan, I've seen this problem happen with programs other than Aladdin. Don't remember which I tried, but single-tasking seemed to be something they shared. This is making me bonkers.... not the actual problem, but the fact that it's only happening to me!! I'm going to do the patch and installation over again very carefully. I was careful the first time, but this time I'll throw in the 'very' to be on the safe side. (LATER..........) Well, I started from scratch and re-patched ND and re-installed it. Ran Aladdin, checked the windows in ND, etc. Same problem! After doing some thinking, I decided to check into the possibility that ND wasn't the culprit, which left Geneva as the only other thing that could be causing this. I replaced my GENEVA.CNF file with the one from my original disk (figuring that since only programs set to single-tasking were causing this effect it could be related to the CNF file), and guess what? Yep, that did the trick! Window dropdowns all work fine now, and there's one less flying monkey sitting on my monitor now! :) Thanks to all for helping me with this, and I apologise to Dan for taking up any of his time trying to track this down. - Mick ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 141 Sat Oct 22, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 09:21 EDT Tomas, I *did* get that to work some time back (NEODESK.EXE => PRG) but it may have been working only if Neoload had been run once in the session. Mick, Glad to see you cured the problem. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 142 Sat Oct 22, 1994 A.PETRIE1 [Suzie/AL] at 13:28 EDT Sorry this is late but I was out of town for a week, putting Xboot on the med rez desk top worked fine, but just now tried to click on Xboot from the low rez desktop and got a rong rez message(requires 640x200 to run) so am close enough for my needs but not perfect. AL P ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 143 Sat Oct 22, 1994 K.SPRINGER1 [FROZEN NORTH] at 12:31 PDT Mick, If it's any consolation, I've also had the Geneva.cnf file get munged. Now save a backup. Ken S. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 144 Sat Oct 22, 1994 B.AEIN [B Man] at 19:19 EDT Al, I am running on a color monitor, but all the window info is set to white. I have to manually use Neos window option to rest everything back to black so I can see text and outlines. I want a button that will set everything to black so I dont need to spend 10 mins making my system look normal again. Thanks Bman ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 145 Sat Oct 22, 1994 J.BATES15 [JAB] at 22:19 EDT Hi Dan, It seems that the keyboard gets blocked after several operations. When I open the Desktop dialog and the desktop notes section and return to the desktop, I can no longer click on the desktop and write a note. All the keyboard macros are also blocked. If I then run a macro from the Menu, everything returns to normal. This is on a Falcon with Geneva, Speedo 5, SAM, Warp 9, and the usual list of patch programs. On another note, can you have the desktop note dialog show the sample on a copy of the actual desktop set in the Neoicons.nic file? Showing it on the default desktop fill pattern doesn't help me see what a chosen font will look like on my desktop. Later, JAB ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 146 Sun Oct 23, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 00:04 EDT Al P - From low rez you (they) can hit CNTRL-ALT-DELETE and force a cold boot. With XBOOT in the AUTO folder, it should present itself again and you can make your rez selection. MouseBoot doesn't work in ST Low rez either. I always reboot to change out of it. Oh - there is a small program in the lib's here that will force a reboot. (XAKRESET, I think. search on reset or reboot?) You could keep this on the desktop too, if they still feel the need to point and click. It's public domain. If you can't find one, let me know and I'll Email it to you. Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 147 Sat Oct 22, 1994 C.BINCKLEY [-- Chuck --] at 22:02 PDT Dan, I've run into what appears to be a bug in ND4/002 - every time I try to copy a file to the same directory the original is in, using the "rename destination" function in the copy/move dialog, the file gets copied with the new name but NeoDesk then bombs (2 bombs - bus error) and quits. This is on a MegaSTE4, TOS 2.06, running ND4/002 under Geneva with SpeedoGDOS5, Warp 9 3.80, and various other accs and auto programs. I haven't tried it on a "clean" system yet, but it seems to me that a simple copy function should be pretty much immune to any software conflicts, other than major OS bugs. Oh, yeah, I'm also using ICDBOOT 6.5.5 on a 170 meg Quantum LPS SCSI drive. If you are already aware of this, then I'll relax and avoid using this particular function until the next update. Otherwise, I'll try it in a clean setup and see if it still happens. -- Chuck -- ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 148 Sat Oct 22, 1994 C.BINCKLEY [-- Chuck --] at 23:40 PDT Dan, I have the same problem with macros that Frank is having. I recreated most of my macros from scratch after installing ND4/002, and I still get the "Desktop has changed" alert with several of them. For example, I created macros to run Diamond Back 3 and Diamond Edge by opening a window to the program file, starting the macro recording, run the program by double-clicking on its icon, quit the program, end macro recording and assign a hot key and name, and then install it. When I run the macro with the hot key, I get the alert. Sometimes (depending on the macro) the alert comes before the program starts up, sometimes it comes after I quit the program. And Al, I know for sure I don't have any mixed file versions, so I don't think that's the problem. Not a major problem, but quite a nuisance... -- Chuck -- ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 149 Sun Oct 23, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:01 EDT Ben, Hmm, I suppose you could save an INF file that had the colors switched to what you want, then create a macro that loaded that inf file. You make a macro do that by starting the macro recorder, selecting the inf file, pressing control- L, then ending the macro. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 150 Sun Oct 23, 1994 B.BEAUCHEA [Bob Beauchea] at 16:20 EDT Dan, I finally got around to installing release 002 of Neodesk 4. First it fixes the problem I had with the control panel and my Mega Ste. Thanks! But now I get frequent bus errors (2 bombs) when I do file copies. They usally occur when I have a duplicate file name and I get the dialog that allows me to overwrite or skip. I click on Okay to overwrite the file and I frequently get the bus error. If you need more info on the problem ask. It happens often enough that I now use another program for file copies. Thanks, Bob Beauchea ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 151 Sun Oct 23, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 19:52 EDT Chuck - Try this to avoid the 'Desktop has changed' message. Place the program you want to create the macro for on the desktop. Make sure you have no open windows. Start the macro recorder and dbl. click on the prg. icon to run it. Exit the program and end your macro. Remove the prg. icon from the desktop, save your macro and voila! It should run without the message. It usually works for me. -=-=-=-=-=-=- Al - Re: your macro to load the alternate .INF file... I haven't tried any chained macros in Neo4, and am too lazy to go back to the manual! Is this something that was fixed in Neo4? I know under 3.04 I couldn't create a macro that involved on of Neo's built in macros. I would get a message telling me something to the effect that the macro funtion was busy, and can't be used to do what I'm asking! Just curious... Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 152 Sun Oct 23, 1994 G.LEONE [Gerry] at 20:23 CDT >Hmm, I suppose you could save an INF file that had the colors switched to what >you want, then create a macro that loaded that inf file. You make a macro do Yup, you sure can. I've got 4 different INF files (depending on whether my SyQ is connected to the system or not), and just to "flag" me that I've got a different desktop active, I've changed the colors of each. Works like a charm. -Gerry ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 153 Mon Oct 24, 1994 J.BATES15 [JAB] at 02:46 EDT Chuck, I accomplished the same thing without the desktop has changed message by starting the macro record with no windows open, opening the appropriate window, running the program, quitting the program, closing the window, and ending macro record. For edge, this drops me into Neo and I have to click on the edge window to get the menu bar, a minor inconvenience to be sure. Later, JAB ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 154 Mon Oct 24, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 12:43 EDT Bob B, Yes, I'm aware of the problem with name conflicts. For me it happens after the third conflict in the same operation, though that could vary. Chuck, This is probably related to the same problem I've reproduced with respect to getting several name conflicts during one operation. The point at which you get the crash can be fairly random (for me, it is always after the third name conflict.) For now, you may be able to improve things by going to dialogs not in a window. As I told Frank, I already have a misbehaving macro file, so I will try to fix that for the next version. JAB, I have noticed that if you call up the Notes dialog and close it, the Desktop dialog is not always redrawn. However, pressing Return to close it (even though it is invisible) restores things to the way they should be. Note that this only happens when dialogs are set NOT to display in a window. Bman, If you set things the way you want and then save your INF file, the window colors will stay that way from now on. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 155 Mon Oct 24, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 18:55 EDT Matt, Lots of rebooters in the libs -- or if they are not there, I'll send 'em up. Chuck, Try this copy function without Speedo loaded. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 156 Mon Oct 24, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 19:59 CDT Dan, I just read your message to Chuck and to JAB, and thought I would try something, in regards to the 'Help' files being called from the Dialog boxes and the Desktop Notes button that was being left active on the screen. I was using the 'Dialog Boxes' set to 'Not Show in window'. I enabled the 'Show in Window', and sure enough the 'Help' out of Dialog boxes is now OK and all the text is aligned within the new Help Window, also the 'Desktop Notes...' no longer remains on the screen and active. This ought to help pinpoint to something. Frank L ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 157 Mon Oct 24, 1994 T.CARMAN [Tom Carman] at 22:37 MDT Dan, Thank you for the message about disabling the setting, `Video from Newdesk/Desktop.inf' in the Misc. Options of Task Manager. This cured a problem I was having of losing the colour on my Medium rez desktop after having saved the desktop while in Mono. I would like to know, however, if there is any way of having a pattern applied to the colour desktop while in Medium and a solid colour while in Low rez. I have tried setting this up through the Icon Editor and whenever I set to a solid colour in Low rez and then switch back to Medium my desktop has gone black. If this is a limitation of Neodesk 4 as it is currently written, is there any chance you might change this in the future? If it is not a limitation of the program, what am I doing wrong? Tom Carman (The Sermonator) ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 158 Mon Oct 24, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 23:54 CDT Dan, Some additional information on the Dialog Help situation. If the mouse position is marked to 'Follow the mouse' and the 'Show in Window'*is disabled, when the 'Dialogs' menu is enabled from the Settings menu the frame will appear to the left while the Text will not follow the mouse, causing the text to appear to the right of the Help frame. If the mouse is set to "Center" then the Help frame or window will appear surrounding the text as it should. In a nutshell the Text screen is not following the mouse as the frame does, if set to follow the mouse. If I keep the Show in Window in the Dialog box enabled all Help files run fine. * All refs shoudl be Display in Window not Show. Frank L ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 159 Tue Oct 25, 1994 J.TURCOTTE [JARL T.] at 21:26 MDT Tom, I don't know if this is the best way to have a pattern in medium and not in color, but it is the way I do it for color and mono. I have a small img of the pattern load in mono(tiled) and have the other backgroungs as solid. hope this helps. oh I would not worry to much about the too many fragments in memmory, You might just get it down below 1 and then where would you be? Jarl is out of here... ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 160 Wed Oct 26, 1994 B.AEIN [B Man] at 00:48 EDT Dan, The Window info does not stay the same if you are using different Res's! I would just as soon do without this feature if I keep having to manually reset this. The blitter won't come on unless I run with the 01 Neo Control pannel, and I can't get the desktop to save with this on. Have you noticed the keypress's not being held? Please look in to this. thanks Bman ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 161 Wed Oct 26, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 16:04 EDT Bman, The window colors will stay as whatever you save them. Maybe you are using the same INF file for more than one resolution? If you set it to "Use System Colors" instead, it will use the settings in WCOLORS.CPX. I have no idea why you can't get the Blitter to stay on. It works fine on both machines I have with Blitters. Might it be a screen accelerator, like NVDI or Warp 9 that is affecting it? I plan to look into the thing you mention about keypresses. Tom, You can either use Jarl's method of having an IMG of a pattern for one resolution (and the usual icon editor-definable pattern for the other) or you can use a boot manager to copy two different files for the different resolutions over to NEOICONS.NIC. (This file contains the desktop pattern.) Frank L, Ah, that makes more sense now. I'll look into that. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 162 Wed Oct 26, 1994 B.AEIN [B Man] at 19:53 EDT Dan, Could you put some logic in Neo that would automaticaly save desktop notes and macros? How about being able to load a txt file into notes on screen??? How about adding another dialog box like in Neo 3 for the copy/move option?? I hate the new dialog, its too small. Thanks Bman ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 163 Fri Oct 28, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 11:45 EDT Bman, I'll consider your suggestions. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 164 Fri Oct 28, 1994 L.BUDNICK [Lorne] at 20:38 CDT Dan, Is there a way in which to reset the paths of icons placed on the desktop? I've gone through the manual but can't seem to find anything related to doing so. I've just recently moved a bunch of files to different partitions and would like to just reset the path of the icons rather than having to clear and drag from the new paths. Thanks in advance, Lorne.... ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 165 Sat Oct 29, 1994 K.KESTANFORD at 02:46 EDT I have enjoyed Neodesk 4 for over two weeks now. I haven't had any of the numerous problems that have been posted here, but I have had one annoying occurrence happen. When I go into the memory drop down menu or pull files to copy and it then goes to the screen where you can choose to copy or move, or in GemView, I get continuous keyclicks coming in. I hit a key and it stops for a few seconds and then starts up again. Any ideas?! I am using speedo v.4, NVDI, Geneva and Neo4. If I do not run Neo4, these problems completely disappear. Therefore I know that Neo4 is doing it. Thanx. Please reply, Ken S. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 166 Sat Oct 29, 1994 T.PATRICK5 [Happy Hacker] at 03:12 PDT Lorne, Just load your NeoDesk.INF file into a good test editor that can do ASCII saves (like STeno), and use search and replace to change your icon paths. I do it all the time. Aloha, from the Happy Hacker! (Tim) ... FaST Technology Turbo25 inside! ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 167 Sat Oct 29, 1994 W.ORTIZ [Will] at 11:32 EDT Just curious guys! How do I go about using those 1700 "GREAT" icons I recently D/L. They have the .ICO extension and all I get is question marks. Excuse my ignorance, but I've been looking in the manual and it says it can read them. I figure it's the resolution but that's a guess. Can anyone confirm? Just curious. I'm running on a 1040 STe w/ Medium resolution (SC1224). Will ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 168 Sat Oct 29, 1994 L.BUDNICK [Lorne] at 10:58 CDT Tim, Thanks for the tip on changing the icon paths. I never really thought about the .inf files being ascii. :^) Lorne.... ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 169 Sat Oct 29, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 14:41 EDT Lorne, Yes, just pull up the INF file into a text editor WITH WORD WRAP OFF and search & replace the old paths with the new ones. They're easy to spot. Keep a backup of the INF file in case you mess up. Ken Stanford, What happens when Speedo is not part of the mix? Will, They are 16-color icons, that's why. :-) I mentioned that in my uoload description. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 170 Sat Oct 29, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 19:24 CDT I a .NPI an executable file? I just noticed that it is not listed as such in my NeoDesk .INF file. Frank L ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 171 Sun Oct 30, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 11:09 EST Frank, An NPI is like a PIF under Windows. It's executable, but only because NeoDesk already knows that what it does is pass parameters to an actual executable file. No need to list it as executable. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 172 Sun Oct 30, 1994 D.MASON1 [DAVE] at 13:27 EST ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 173 Sun Oct 30, 1994 J.YOUNG57 [AtariFan] at 10:52 PST I just received my upgrade to NeoDesk 4.02 and have enjoyed using it, but am having an apparent hardware clash. I am using the Overscan board and when I run Neodesk as the desktop, i.e. Not in a window, the boxes used to contain the options in the menu bar (the ones that popdown) are too small to contain the text. This causes garbage to be left on the screen after the menu is closed. Apparently, it seems as if the program is using boxes that would be appropriate in High-rez, but I am in Med-just at a higher resolution. Also, all dialogs are scrunched up (the text spacing looks like it thinks its in high-rez). As I had no problem using Overscan with NeoDesk3, I am looking for solution to this problem. Any suggestions will be appreciated. J.YOUNG57 ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 174 Sun Oct 30, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 17:47 CST Al, Ahha, thanks for the explanation of the .NPI file. Frank L ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 175 Mon Oct 31, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 15:38 EST AtariFan, That's odd. I just tried to simulate your setup by using NeoDesk on the Crazy Dots at a resolution of 640 x 232, and it worked fine. What is the exact resolution you end up in? Please also give me a list of what AUTO folder programs and DA's you have. Ken Kestanford, You are getting what is often called a "keyboard overrun". The actual reason is pretty technical, but a list of all of your AUTO folder programs and DA's would be very helpful. Lorne, No, there's no easy way to do that, aside from editing your .INF file with a text editor. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 176 Mon Oct 31, 1994 D.MCANDREW [Simulator] at 20:16 EST Simulate?? Did somebody call me? ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 177 Mon Oct 31, 1994 K.OLSON10 [KenO.] at 21:06 EST Hi! When I boot my falcon with NEO4 I get "Illegal AES Function call" and then it goes to the ATARI desktop If I then open my auto folder and dubc on NEO.prg Neo runs. I am running with no autos except UIS & no ACC's except the control panel ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 178 Tue Nov 01, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 20:01 EST No, we were stimulating, Sim. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 179 Tue Nov 01, 1994 J.YOUNG57 [AtariFan] at 20:48 PST Dan, I am using Overscan at 752 x 240. in my Auto folder I have Jar10.prg, Bigcooky.prg, SpeedoGDos, Warp9, Overscan, Geneva, and Mkacc. I have Tos 1.04, Geneva 1.01, Speedo 4.0, Warp 9 3.45 (I think), and NeoDesk 4.02. Accessories I have are XControl, GemClipboard, and St-Guide. Any help is appreciated...Thanks. JYOUNG57 ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 180 Wed Nov 02, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 12:28 EST J.Young, Geneva is your problem. You should update to release 003 (version 1.02) by using the patch program in the libraries. I should also warn you that you may have some problems if the Speedo you have is 4.10 or older. Ken O, The "Illegal AES function call" is because of the release 001 control panel being used on a Falcon. Get the patch to 002. You should probably also look into getting NeoDesk to autorun, by following the instructions on Page 7 of the manual. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 181 Wed Nov 02, 1994 D.MCANDREW [Simulator] at 18:19 EST To: A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] Yes indeed. My boss always complains that no one else in our orifice knows just how to do that! Office, that is. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 182 Wed Nov 02, 1994 K.KESTANFORD at 22:49 EST Keyboard Overrun! Yep that about summarizes it. I tried without speedo, or NVDI or any thing else. I am running Geneva and Neo4 on a Medusa, so perhaps the problem lies somewhere in there!? If you do not think so, any ideas. Maybe some flag setting suggestions? Thanx Thanx for the quick help... Ken Stanford ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 183 Fri Nov 04, 1994 K.OLSON10 [KenO.] at 06:53 EST Hi! Dan - Remember when a while ago I mentioned that I did not have pages 7 & 8 of the manual & we tried the FAX route that did not work. I still don't have pages 7 & 8. Could you please send them. If you have them in text form you could send via GEmail. I do have 1.2 version of the control panel. Thanks KenO. :) ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 184 Sat Nov 05, 1994 B.DEWITT [Perfesser] at 09:22 MST I have a little problem that has developed on my Falcon NeoDesk4 Desktop. I don't know how it happened and I don't know how to resolve it. What I have is this: three untitled versions of the floppy disk icon appeared over the top of the official floppy disk icon. These three are exact copies of the original, except they don't have a name or a letter. When I try to delete them by dragging them to the Trashcan, NeoDesk informs me that they don't have a proper icon letter identifier and refuses to remove them. For the time being, I have dragged them to another part of the screen and have saved the configuration so they are out of the way; but how can I get rid of them, and what may have caused them to appear in the first place? Any suggestions? Th'Perfesser ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 185 Sat Nov 05, 1994 F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 12:04 CST Perfessor, Have you tried 'highlighting' then go to the pull down menu 'Install Icons' and then click on 'Remove'? I also beleive you can edit them out of the Neodesk.INF file. Frank L ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 186 Sat Nov 05, 1994 M.POCHE [Mick] at 12:50 CST Perfesser, Try this: Instead of dragging the mystery icons to the trashcan, select both of them and use the Install Desktop Icon menu option under the Options dropdown, then choose 'Remove'. That should get rid of the icons, then make sure to save your configuration. When you drag a drive icon to the trashcan, ND is trying to delete files from the drive. Since your mystery icons don't represent real drives, ND can't do anything with them. - Mick ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 187 Sun Nov 06, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 11:47 EST Perf, Did you try using control-D to open the icon dialog after selecting them, and then choosing Remove? You can edit the INF file easily, using STeno or another ASCII editor with word-wrap turned OFF. You'll see the entries for the icons all in one group, and those should be easy to spot. You just delete the lines. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 188 Sun Nov 06, 1994 B.STRINGER at 20:58 EST Hi well I finally got NeoDesk 4 installed. I like it a lot. Can you comment on the bombs that appear if any of the serial fix programs are loaded from the auto folder? The bombs appear just as the Neodesk greeting screen goes off. Do I still need a serial fix auto prg? I'm running TOS 2.06 on a 4meg MSTE. I'm also running with warp 9. Thanks Bruce J. Stringer, M.D. ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 189 Mon Nov 07, 1994 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 00:29 EST Dr. Bruce - I boot with Serial Fix from time to time and don't have any problem with bombing. This with Neo4 and Geneva on a MSTe 4 meg TOS 2.06, and a ton of AUTO/ACC's. What else do you boot up with? Of course, as any who have followed my First Boot problems know, I've only recently gotten back to this wonderful condition. Hmmm, maybe I should try my old, quick way of booting up and leave Serial Fix out of the loop. I'll post a report only if it works! Matt ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 190 Mon Nov 07, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 19:00 EST Bruce, NeoDesk does nothing to affect the serial port, in fact it never even looks at it. I often use SERIALFX20 here with no problems. Perhaps a list of what you have in your AUTO folder and what desk accessories you are running would help us to diagnose the problem. Ken O, Oh, I thought we had gotten this straightened out, but I guess not. Expect something in the snail mail shortly. Ken Stanford, It might have to do with Geneva, since there is a minor problem in 003 that can make the keyboard overrun more prone to happen when lots of serial port activity is occurring at the same time. Exactly what is in your AUTO folder in a minimal configuration that still produces the overrun? Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 191 Mon Nov 07, 1994 B.AEIN [B Man] at 23:37 EST Hi Dan, Any ETA on the next Neo4 upadate? Is there any way to be able to add color to the txt display of files? It would be real nice if I could say that any file ending in .PRG would show as red in the window, thus making it stick out. Is there any chance that you can make the file filter Dialog Bigger and with more extensions and Bigger Buttons with Key equiv's? I have a macro that closes windows, but if I have opened a group window, this macro will not work on it?!? Thanks Bman ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 192 Tue Nov 08, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:56 EST Bruce, Serial Fix 2.0, FastSer and HSMODEM's suite of fixes all work fine under Neo 4 here. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 193 Tue Nov 08, 1994 J.WILSON103 [J_Dub] at 08:16 CST I am a 'recent' procurer of both Geneva and Neo4. While not having a lot of time to get them up and running 'properly', I do see the benefits that may be enjoyed once one is proficient. If I load either of these programs alone, I have access to the help function, but if both are loaded, I cannot access the help function. Can anyone shed a little light on what I may be doing wrong? Thanks, J_Dub ~~~~~ Tuesday, November 8, 1994 8:09:26 am ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 194 Wed Nov 09, 1994 RHFACTOR at 00:52 EST Hi Dan, Just recently added NEODESK 4 to my my new 4 meg ST(e), Syquest 270 system. The flexability and ease at which I am able to move around on the system is great. I'm still at the early stages of laying out all the options and settings available, including custom designs of icons. A few problems have come up that I need help on: My 'basic' set-up includes WARP9 (3.80), XCONTROL, and NEO4 (2). I am not multi-tasking, and have TOS 1.6. I should point out that with the limited time I've been using this new setup, I'm only providing minimal details. 1. Entering the 'DIALOGS' setting. Clicked on 'Button Settings. Made changes to the default 'button' settings. Clicked 'OK' when finished. THEN Re-entered back into 'button settings'. After clicking 'OK', I got a REGISTER ERROR with 2 BOMBS that forced me out of NEODESK. There have been other situations that have 'brought out the bombs', but I have not had time to isolate the circumstance. Just thought I'd make an early mention. Oh, by the way..... would or will it ever be possible for the desk icons size to be expanded to 64x32 ?? It seems that the 'space' that the name already spans that width. It would be really nice (as an option) to be able to have the extra area to make some wider icons. I know that there are limits, but I've seen bigger icons allowed. Just a request............ Thanks !!!!! RHFactor ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 195 Wed Nov 09, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:00 EST Bman, Use Geneva's hotkey settings to do the window closings. They work fine on NeoDesk 4 windows, of all types. Alt-Esc is what I use, and it backs out one level except at the root, where it closes the window. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 196 Wed Nov 09, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:20 EST J_Dub, Beats me. The help function works fine in all three situations here. Dan may have a clue. Al ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 197 Wed Nov 09, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 11:22 EST rhfactor, That is a known problem in 002 which will very likely happen whenever you re- enter either the Gadgets or Buttons dialogs. You have to quit NeoDesk and re- run it in order to prevent the crash. Expanding the size of the icons would be a pretty major feat at this point. Maybe in NeoDesk 5 . J_Dub, When Geneva is present, NeoDesk calls Geneva's help viewer instead of using its own. It sounds like that is what is failing. In your GEM.CNF, you should have a line like: setenv SHOWHELP=c:\geneva\help\gnvahelp This should point to the correct location where gnvahelp is. The only other reason it might be failing is if NeoDesk is being run as a single- tasking application. Bman, Right now I am working on the Geneva update. I can't really come up with a good estimate about NeoDesk. If you want more extensions in the Filters, just use the long templates instead of the pre-defined ones. I'll try the group winod wcolsing macro. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 198 Wed Nov 09, 1994 B.DEWITT [Perfesser] at 20:03 MST Thanks, guys for the advice on how to get rid of those pesky floppy disk icons that showed up unbidden on my desktop. Especially since the advice worked-- that's always the best kind, you know. >grin< Th'Perfesser ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 199 Thu Nov 10, 1994 K.BALLANTYNE [Kit] at 04:02 MST Is there a way to permanately re-arrange the files in a group? I thought it was just pick up a file name and lay it down where you want it, but that it just launching the program I am dragging. I know this is probably covered very carefully in the NeoDESK manual, but it's late, I look around and couldn't find my answer. Do I have to kill the group I made and then re-create it with the filenames put in in the proper order? ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 200 Thu Nov 10, 1994 GRIBNIF [Dan] at 15:52 EST Kit, You can drag the icons wherever you want them, you just have to make sure you don't put them on top of other icons, because that will run the program instead. You can also use Snap to Grid. Dan ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 201 Thu Nov 10, 1994 Y.DUFRESNE [Papageno] at 21:35 EST Dan, Kit, I believe kit refered to the text display in a group window, right? If so, you can only sort by name or type. Select the one you wish in th VIEW menu. It might be great to have a no sort there, Dan. We could use the reorder fonction to place them the way we like. (I'd really like that, you kow...) Yanick ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 202 Thu Nov 10, 1994 J.WILSON103 [J_Dub] at 23:27 CST >J_Dub, > > When Geneva is present, NeoDesk calls Geneva's help viewer instead of using >its own. It sounds like that is what is failing. In your GEM.CNF, you should >have a line like: > > setenv SHOWHELP=c:\geneva\help\gnvahelp > Dan, I finally got it to work after 'several' iterations if installing both. I had wanted both of these programs OFF my 'c' drive. Regardless, I can now access 'help', and I will continue my learning curve with these two fine programs. I just realized I have nearly as many Gribniff programs as CodeHead programs. Do not know what I do without either. Thanks. J_Dub ------------ Category 17, Topic 4 Message 203 Fri Nov 11, 1994 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 14:54 EST Kit, I'm not sure what you mean. Group items can be arranged any way you like. They won't lanuch anything unless you double-click on them or use the other launch techniques. As Dan said, if you overlap them, NeoDesk will do a drag 'n' drop operation and run the app that is being dropped on, trying to pass the name of the app that is being drugged ... i mean dropped. (I've been drugged, I guess, having worked 31 days straight of 16 to 20 hours each on a project. Ouch! Too much coffee....) Al ------------