==============================================================
          ROUNDTABLE CONFERENCE ON
          HOW TO GET STARTED IN INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS
          Held in the HOSB (Home Office/Small Business RT Conference Room)
          Guest Moderator --- Nancy Irwin
          October 17, 1993
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<[Janet] J.ATTARD> Tonight's guest is Nancy Irwin and she tell us briefly about
<[Janet] J.ATTARD>her background and experience in international business.

Since 1965 I have been involved in international business:

        public relations (try selling the U.S.Army to the Japanese and
        German press (as well as U.S.A. press) during the Vietnam War)

        sales of specialty chemicals from a U.S. company into Japan and
        Korea (international product manager)

        sales of specialty chemicals from a Dutch company into every
        reasonably-industrialized country in Latin America (international
        marketing manager)

        sales of specialty chemicals from a U.S. subsidiary of a Dutch
        conglomerate into the U.S. and Canadian market (domestic sales
        representative -- see, even the Dutch sometimes make the mistake of
        pretending that Canada is the 51st state)

        sales of specialty chemicals from a U.K. conglomerate into the U.S.
        market (independent representative)

        marketing and sales of products sold domestically into the
        international market (both The KIP Company's products and other
        company's specialty chemical products)

        marketing and sales of income tax relief for small (<$5 million in
        allocated exports) exporting businesses.

I also do volunteer work for SCORE (Service Corps of Retired Executives and
 NO, I'm not retired) and Cleveland Alumnae Panhellenic Association (alums
 who used to be collegiate sorority women).  I belong to the American Society
 of International Executives and can write EIE-EM (Experienced International
 Executive - Export Management) after my name.

Those are my bona fides.  However, the coffee still costs the same!(G)

<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Luigi, the American Society of International Executives is
located at Temple University.
<[Brad Solomon] BRAD> Hey, Temple is in my neck of the woods.
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> The ASIE was established to try to provide consuming
companies with some confidence that the person with whom they are dealing
really have been in international business in the past.
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Luigi:  Understand that a lot of the ASIE folks are shippers
and freight forwarders.  But, nevertheless, ASIE is an organization for
"certification".
<LUIGI> So if I write to Temple I could get more data on the society and it's
membership/ certification requirements?
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> No, Luigi, you have to write to the professor at Temple who
is heading the ASIE.  I can post the address in the BB tomorrow if you want
more info.
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> John, I know that Luigi does international consulting.  Are
you in international business also?
<[john] J.DIANA4> i am attempting to set up an.....
<[john] J.DIANA4> distributorship for a Romanian product to import into USA.
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Have you imported before, John?
<[john] J.DIANA4> i own an insurance company here in us.
<[john] J.DIANA4> no experience.
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Where have you started -- getting the product(s) from a
friend? a listing from the Romanian government?
<[john] J.DIANA4> a friend that is a Romanian.
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> John, is your friend here in the U.S.A. or over there?
<J.ATTARD> Rules: If Nancy has any opening remarks, we'll take those first, and
then if you could each type /rai when you have a question, we can call on you
in turn
<[john] J.DIANA4> USA.
<J.ATTARD> I've got most of it fixed, Nancy.. hang in there.. this is Nancy's
background, folks...
Since 1965 I have been involved in international business:
public relations (try selling the U.S.Army to the Japanese and German
press (as well as U.S.A. press) during the Vietnam
War) sales of specialty chemicals from a U.S. company into
Japan and Korea (international product manager)
sales of specialty chemicals from a Dutch company
into every reasonably-industrialized country in Latin America international
marketing manager) sales of specialty chemicals from a
.S. subsidiary of a Dutch conglomerate into the U.S. and Canadian market
(domestic sales representative -- see, even the Dutch
sometimes make the mistake of pretending that Canada is the 51st
state) sales of specialty chemicals from a U.K. conglomerate
into the U.S. market (independent representative) marketing and sales of
products sold domestically
into the international market (both The KIP Company's products
and other company's specialty chemical products)marketing and sales of income
tax relief for small
(<$5 million in allocated exports) exporting businesses.

Nancy also does volunteer work for SCORE (Service Corps of Retired
Executives and NO, is not retired) and Cleveland Alumnae Panhellenic
Association (alums who used to be collegiate sorority women).
I belong to the American Society of
International Executives and can write EIE-EM (Experienced
International Executive - Export Management) after my name./PREPEND
<J.ATTARD> Nancy, do you have a few thoughts to start us off tonight before we
take questions?
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Great job, Janet, now for the first question back to
John...which is "Do you have any customers for the product you want to import?"
<[john] J.DIANA4> yes. a few possible ones.
<[john] J.DIANA4> :) thanks.
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Assuming it's okay to start with John's questions, the first
thing you need to know John is the approximate cost of the product when it
arrives at your office, right?
<[john] J.DIANA4> rg
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Then, you need to take a picture and its complete description
to the nearest U.S. Customs office and get the product classified and a LOD for
the duty rate.
<[john] J.DIANA4> ok
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> After you have the LOD, you need to find a customs house
broker and get a delivered duty paid quotation good for six months.
<[john] J.DIANA4> this means the broker gives me a quote on what he will charge?
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> AND, before you do anything, you need to find a Federal
bookstore and get the book "importing into the U.S.A." written by the Dept of
Treasury U.S. Customs.
<[john] J.DIANA4> where did i find a federal book store?
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Not exactly, with the LOD in hand he can give you the price
everyone but the bank will charge for the shipment.
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Janet, where's a federal bookstore. 9th & Lakeside in
Cleveland, OH (G)
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> You can get the publication from the superintendent of
documents, too..
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> address is Superintendent of Documents, Washington DC
20402-9328
<[JimP] JPEABODY> at the Gov't Printing Office, Wash. DC
<[john] J.DIANA4> does the bank have anything to do with this?
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> (zip is correct, the typos are typos <g>
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Romania is a controlled currency country, is it not, John?
If so, then you will have to pay in the local currency via a Romanian bank,
probably.
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> phone number for Superintendent of Docs.. is 202 783-3238
<[john] J.DIANA4> oh, and the bank will charge an exchange fee. right?
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Not only an exchange fee, but also a processing fee and maybe
a permit fee.
<[john] J.DIANA4> got it.
<[john] J.DIANA4> what next.
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> The Romanian embassy's commercial consulate should have a lot
of info.  The main embassy telephone number is 202-232-4747
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> Let me interrupt for a minute....
<[john] J.DIANA4> great!
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> In case you haven't all found it yet, we are revitalizing
the international business category on the board. That's category 17 if you
want to keep an ongoing discussion going on after tonight.
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> Back to Nancy and your questions
<[john] J.DIANA4> Nancy is it as easy as it seems to do?
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> John, exporting or importing?
<[john] J.DIANA4> importing.
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> If you have the customers, John, the product and a real good
relationship with the manufacturer, importing is only 3 times as difficult as
selling domestically made goods, IMO
<[john] J.DIANA4> my advantage is that I can buy these products at 1/10 the USA
cost.
<[JimP] JPEABODY> Three times?  Why do people bother?
<[john] J.DIANA4> quality too.
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> The reasons to import include Not made here (and why not is
always an interesting question), lower costs (after importing, not before)
<[Brad Solomon] BRAD> I think you have your answer, Jim.  3 times 1/10 ==> 30%.
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> People bother importing because they can make money doing it
THE HARD WAY!
<[JimP] JPEABODY> difficult=dollars  ?
<[John] DIRECTORY.JL> assuming you don't fight exchange rate mechanisms and
floats...
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Right now, with the U.S.$ low, people can make better margins
on imported goods.
<[john] J.DIANA4> Nancy are you saying its not worth it. or is there a big reward
for the difficulty?
<LUIGI> Nothing worth doing is easy, if you have a product which fits into a
niche you can make a good living at importing
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> John, it depends on how much your customers want the imported
product, and if they are willing to let someone else import it, rather than
fighting that fight themselves.
<[john] J.DIANA4> Nancy that is backwards isn't it?
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> How backwards?
<[john] J.DIANA4>  our $ high buys more foreign goods.
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Yeah, I usually think exports.  You're right, of course, John.
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> STupid question - because this is an area I know nothing
about ... how to you find the buyer/seller. like WHERE do you start?
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Well, Janet, how does one ever find a manufacturer or a
customer?
<[John] DIRECTORY.JL> most of mine come through contacts.. direct and indirect..
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Either you specialize in an industry, a set of customers, a
country ... something.
<[John] DIRECTORY.JL> biggest problem I have is setting up the particulars for
financing the deal..
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Luigi is right.  People find products via relatives, Peace
Corps experience, unsolicited requests from Thomas Register (a lot of them
overseas)
<[John] DIRECTORY.JL> meaning... getting paid in a timely fashion..
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Well, John, how much money are you looking for and for how
long?
<[john] J.DIANA4> Romanian john or jl
<[romjon] J.DIANA4> hahaha
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Because there are no pricing rules on export transactions,
John.L, you should always factor a cost of capital into your pro formas.
<[Au$$Plater] DIRECTORY.JL> hehehe
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> What happened?  More garbling?? from me???
<[romjon] J.DIANA4> no both of us have the name john.:) hahaha
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> I think that was a reply to a message I sent John about
doubling his $$ in his nickname
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> John do you import/export chemicals for you plating business?
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Well, Silver Platter, do you use a cost of capital in
figuring your prices?
<[Au$$Plater] DIRECTORY.JL> that's true, Nancy... but it is a real headache in
my specialized foreign work
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Why is it a headache?
<[Au$$Plater] DIRECTORY.JL> no way on chemicals...
<[Brad Solomon] BRAD> Au is gold.
<[Au$$Plater] DIRECTORY.JL> but I export high markup precision parts.. and the
collections can take years in some cases...
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Can you predict the collections problems by country or type
of client?
<[Au$$Plater] DIRECTORY.JL> for instance...  in '92 the Italians held up
payment because of the devaluation of the lire for over 10 mos.
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Have you ever made COD shipments via one of the BIG customs
house brokers for shipments under US$20,000?
<[Au$$Plater] DIRECTORY.JL> sometimes... but most of my work goes to gov't
funded agencies (both here and abroad)... further complicating things...
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Well, I don't know how anyone collects in a timely manner on
a U.S. govt. indirect export.
<[Brad Solomon] BRAD> Officially gov't funded?  <G>
<LUIGI> Here here.!
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> Luigi, do you have a comment?
<[Au$$Plater] DIRECTORY.JL> COD is definitely not OK to foreign gov'ts...  I
have required partial payment up front... but that doesn't always work...
<LUIGI> That was It  I couldn"t agree more.
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> All I know is that if I won't get paid in a timely manner, I
have to charge for the time value of the receivable.  I'll walk away from the
business before I will lose my margins for anyone.
<[Au$$Plater] DIRECTORY.JL> yeah.. I agree Nancy... but you usually can't tack
on a fee for late payment to a gov't contract... I add it to the cost of the
parts..,.
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Sorry, John.L, I didn't make myself clear.  For payment
problems, the increase in price is on the ex works price quote, not a separate
line item.
<[Au$$Plater] DIRECTORY.JL> Basically, I have walked away from direct export..
doing most through a third party as a sort of sub-contractor..
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Which, for whomever asked earlier, is why export management
companies exist.
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Which I believe brings us to Luigi.  Don't you do EMC work
sometimes, Luigi?
<LUIGI> Yes we get involved in a number of areas. I do the marketing, we also
have a guy who does contracts and negotiations and another in EMC.
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> What reasons do people give you that they won't/can't/don't
do their own exporting?
<LUIGI> The primary reason is risk. They either don't understand the business
or don't want to spend the time, money and energy on the exporting. So they
come to us.
<[Marlene - Th] M.GABEREL1> Luigi: Do you take possession of the merchandise?
<LUIGI> Generally not. We provide a service and we try not to handle the
merchandise.
<[Marlene - Th] M.GABEREL1> Luigi: You then work on a commission basis?
<LUIGI> We try to work on a retained basis if possible since it makes it easier
for uas all to eat. We do however work on a commission basis in some cases if
we are working with a new customer or trying to establish a new venture
somewhere.
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Do your customers graduate to doing their own exporting and
having their own departments for exporting after sales have increased beyond a
certain, self-sustaining level, Luigi?
<LUIGI> Since we are a consulting firm, we generally try to help our clients
become self sufficient.
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> I agree with Luigi.  EMCs need to work on retainers if they
wish to stay in business for more than 18 months.
<[Marlene - Th] M.GABEREL1> Luigi: How would you describe "retained basis"?
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> In Cleveland, every two years there is a new "crop" of EMCs
in the Yellow Pages.
<LUIGI> We set up an agreement whereby the client agrees to have us represent
him for a fee. He pays us regularly for our services over the period of the
contract. That way we don't have to wait to get paid. In return we provide
consideration in our price and specify the terms of performance in the
contract. So everybody is happy.
<[romjon] J.DIANA4> ok
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> So, Luigi, if I understand, you have overseas clients for
whom you arrange purchases as well as domestic clients who wish to export.
<LUIGI> That's correct.
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> And, it's very difficult work.  Congratulations on your
endeavors.
<LUIGI> Thanks.
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Next? or are we out of time?
<[romjon] J.DIANA4> may I interrupt for a second before I log off?
<LUIGI> I'm not alone so it is interesting.
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> romjohn go ahead
<[romjon] J.DIANA4> nancy, do you have any last words for me? I have to log off
early this evening. also, how can we get intouch with you in the future?
<[Marlene - Th] M.GABEREL1> Luigi: Are you always successful in finding
overseas market for your customers?
<LUIGI> Absolutely Not!
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> I am now visiting the International CAT every day.  You can
talk about importing in TOPic 21.  I'll see you in the BB, RomJon.
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> Interanational business Category is category 17 Type set 17
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> once you are in the board, then READ 21.
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> Or REPly 21
<[romjon] J.DIANA4> thank you. I learned much this evening.
<[romjon] J.DIANA4> good bye all and good luck to you.
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> You're welcome.  We can set up another of these if you wish.
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> Would you be interested in a regular live conference?
<LUIGI> Solong
<[romjon] J.DIANA4> perhaps. yes I would.
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> Would the rest of you be intertested in a regular live
session?
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Oh, Brad, you reminded me.  In almost any other country, they
bend over backwards trying to remember the strange way we tell time with the
a.m.s and p.m.s
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Most places I have been, they use a 24-hour clock -- our
military clock.
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> With a 24-hour clock it is also much easier to figure out the
time in the destination country for a fax, telex etc.
<LUIGI> Where I run into trouble is with dates. I can never remember where to
put the day 10/17/93 or 17/10 Sounds like it Nancy
<[Brad Solomon] BRAD> Try 17OCT.  At least that's clear.
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> Is there anything you folks would like to see us add to the
international busienss ategory, btw?
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Well, Luigi, I have given up and write the month (or its
abbreviation) every time.  Now, I just cannot figure out the dates from Israel.
<[Brad Solomon] BRAD> 17Oct93
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Brad, in my line, it's quite impolite to not put spaces in
there.
<LUIGI> Similar problem in Islamic countries
<[Brad Solomon] BRAD> Do they actually use that calendar for business?  Or just
religious purposes?
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Sometimes, Brad, they help you out with a translation into
"western" dates.  Sometimes, it's only the "date received" stamp from the
office that clues me in.
<LUIGI> Most government documents use the official calendar
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> Anyone know why 17 Oct 93 is preferred over Oct 17 1993 for
style?
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> or when it is?
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> But, Luigi, Islamic country government documents are always
costly.
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Janet, Europe is almost always 17 October 1993.
<LUIGI> Agreed and for a lot of reasons. Not always on the table.
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Dare one say "Amen"?
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> So is the service... or at least the Air Force, but I don't
know why
<LUIGI> After a career in the Air Force I still don't know either Janet.
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Well, the question actually is "why does U.S. business not
follow the conventions of most of the world, including A4 paper.
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> Is A4 paper smaller ?
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> We seem to forget that in the 1950s we were about 50 percent
of the world's economy; now, we're less than 25 percent and falling.
<LUIGI> Franklly it is a matter of cost and convention. Nobody wants to pay for
a change.
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> A4 paper is longer (I believe) than legal (not much) and
narrower.
<LUIGI> True
<[Marlene - Th] M.GABEREL1> Janet + Nancy: Yes A4 is narrower and longer
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> Thanks. I always see it on my printer options, but didn't
know what the difference is.
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> When you think about the changes a little thing like
changing standard paper size can cause.. it's kind of mindboggling
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Then, Janet, there's always the question about why we don't
speak English, but instead speak a funny dialect called "American" when we
aren't even the only "English-speaking" Americans (Canadians also count and
have their own dialect).
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> But every country has dialects.. I don't see why we could be
considered not speaking "english"
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Have you read many English sales brochures?  When was the
last time you said "whilst"?
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> Or at least not any more than the Puerto Ricans could be
considered not to speak Spanish  etc.
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> Yeah, but in other countries - Spanish comes to mind because
I know a little bit of it.. -
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> And, all Spanish is a dialect even Castillano which is the
"purest".
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> there are totally different words in differnet countries for
the same thing, but they all speak the same language (spanish in this case)
<[JimP] JPEABODY> as in lift=elevator?
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Well, I had them rolling on the floor in Argentina when I
used Spanish I had learned in Venezuela.
<[Brad Solomon] BRAD> flat=apartment
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> my point is how does that differ any from Americans
speaking slightly different English than the English people do.
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Yes, Jim.  And, they don't pick you up at the airport, they
collect you.
<LUIGI> I don't think that anyone would say we didn't speak English.  But I
have heard it said that the UK and the US are two separate countries kept apart
by a common language. The important thing is that you spoke Spanish at all.
Nancy. Brava.
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> Ditto on people from Spain trying to catch a bus in Puerto
Rico
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> - or the other way around.
<[Brad Solomon] BRAD> But how about in the USA - I have a soda, other places
have a pop, and still others have a coke - any flavor.
<LUIGI> Here in New England it's called "tonic"
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> Well, Janet, what happens is that we don't always understand
what we think the Brits are saying because their phrases "in English" don't
translate into "American"
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> ok.. I get what you mean.. like in contracts and stuff?
<[Marlene - Th] M.GABEREL1> Luigi: Where about in New England are you? Never
heard tonic in CT
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> And, when I was then to be "collected" at Schiphol in
Amsterdam, I wondered why the Dutch thought I was an inanimate object.
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> I wonder how much business is LOST due to that kind of
language difference
<[Nancy] N.IRWIN> That's why international is not as easy as it looks.
<[Brad Solomon] BRAD> I read years ago about the car NOVA.  Problem in Spanish
speaking countries.   No va == no go.
<LUIGI> I lived IOn the other hand there are a lot of people who make a living
"interpreting " things between us and our foreign brethrren
<[Janet] J.ATTARD> No, I think it's the canadians have another meaning

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