========================================================================== (C) 1993 by Atari Corporation, GEnie, and the Atari Roundtables. May be reprinted only with this notice intact. The Atari Roundtables on GEnie are *official* information services of Atari Corporation. To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem) 800-638-8369. Upon connection type HHH (RETURN after that). Wait for the U#= prompt. Type XJM11877,GEnie and hit RETURN. The system will prompt you for your information. ========================================================================== Category 25, Topic 20 Message 1 Sun Nov 22, 1992 LEXICOR [Lee] at 02:00 EST Announcement: PHOENIX will be released on dec 12 1992. This new program from Lexicor will make it possible for the ST owner to do stunning 512 color animations as well as still pictures. For owners of TT and falcon computers the fun starts at 256 colors and runs all the way to 32,000 colors. Just check out some of the neet things that live in the World of the Phoenix user! Cameras of all kinds: Universal,Aeronautic and more! With features like ZOOM-PERSPECTIVE-BANK Lights of all Kinds: Ambient-Point-Solar-Solar all can be Edited to suite any need. You can add Attributes to your Cad 3D2 objects for the First time! Two completely adjustable procedural maping systems with custom texture map wrapping just for good measure. Your objects can be transparent, with or with out shading. Full shading is supported, now you can select Polygon- Gouraud-Phong or Phong w/Shadows. Plus for you Cyber Control users complete Cyber Control support. You can save SPC-GIF and TGA files (depending on machine type. Watch for PHOENIX image files and animations in the Lexicor Liberary ove the coming weeks. More information will be up- loaded in the next few days. BFN Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 2 Sun Nov 22, 1992 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 14:49 EST I thought Lee had left for his much earned vacation? ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 3 Mon Nov 23, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 20:33 EST Lee, is on vacation. He was just getting some last minute things together. Ringo /exit ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 4 Tue Nov 24, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:20 EST LEXICOR - What about doing 4096-color Spectrum format stuff using the 4096- color palette in the STE/TT? Or is it strictly limited to 512 colors (out of a 512-color palette) for ST/STE owners? ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 5 Tue Nov 24, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 15:06 EST Steve. 4096-color palette with available colors 512 for spectrum format or 512-color palette with availabe colors 512. The true color modes can be Falcon 32,000 16bit or 16.8 million 24bit modes and you can use your regular ST or Mega-ST to render this type of images, you cannot view them but you can render them for the Falcon. Here is the Configuration Screen information. =================================================================== Cyber Control support YES & NO. Image Resolution: Spectrum, ST low, TT low, Falcon TV, Falcon VGA, Current, Custom. Available colors: from 2 up to 16.8 million Resolution: ____ X ____ PIXEL SIZE: ___ X ___ microns. Displayable colors: from 2 up to 16.8 million. RENDER VIEW: Best, Current, None, Leonardo Display. RENDER IMAGE Palette: Best, fixed Dither: None, Pattern, random. With a mask black. Now this just part of the configuration screen. Phoenix has even more functions like Loading SPC, GIF, TGA files for backgrounds or image mapping onto 3D2 objects, over 20 lights etc. THIS IS A VERY POWERFUL PROGRAM!! More information coming SOON! Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 6 Wed Nov 25, 1992 R.COBBLE1 [ROD] at 23:08 EST Lee - I received the demo, VHS video and PHOENIX demo. Both are amazing, although the first 15 minutes of the video is the best. The rest looks more like the Antic stuff. I don't see how to animate within the phoenix program? Is there tweening or can you move objects? Where should I look, since no demo docs? Thanks, ROD P.S. How much greenbacks? ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 7 Wed Nov 25, 1992 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 23:49 EST Rod: Although Phoenix is primarily intended for creating still-frame images, it does offer some animation capabilities. Unfortunately these are not supported in the demo version Lee sent you. We will be uploading a new demo version here on Genie in a couple weeks. If you have Cyber Control V1.1 you can use it with the version you have, let us know if you need more details. You can reposition objects from the Positioning menu entry. Pressing the HELP key there will give you a brief outline of controls. Retail price of Phoenix Object Renderer is $49.95 John Stanford - Lexicor ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 8 Thu Nov 26, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 00:39 EST Rod. You must have a new video demo. The last one that I receive had lots of true color animations. Would you please tell us what this new video contains? I'm dying to find out. John St. is the PHOENIX creator so he is just a little modest. Phoenix is great for still-frame rendering and with Cyber-Control it creates excellent animations. With powerful texture and image mapping an artist can create professional illustrations. Later. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 9 Thu Nov 26, 1992 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 01:31 EST Is Cyber Control the only way to animate in Pheonix? I don't have cyber control. As I've mentioned before I use CyberPaint a lot. I'd love to see something that works in a similar fashion with more color, better resolution. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 10 Thu Nov 26, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 07:46 EST I think Prism Paints the only program that supports animation in higher resolutions such as the TT. It lacks some of the features of Cyberpaint but it supports the TT resolutions. It's the perfect combo with Chronos for 3D stuff but theres not enough tools for easy 2D IMHO. Well worth the funds though! PHOENIX is an incredible piece of work! I've been lucky enough to BETA test and it's almost easier to create a 3D scene then draw a 2D scene from scratch. It's definitely a must have! ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 11 Thu Nov 26, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 11:16 EST Phoenix is more of a single frame rendering program with added support for Cyber-Control for Cyber-Control users. If you need Cyber-Control some places are selling it for $5.00 to $10.00 dollars. With Phoenix and Cyber-Control you can now many things that you could not do with CAD-3D & Cyber-Control. For example: Create spectrum animations 512 colors with Texture & image mapping and for TT/Falcon users render the same animation as a series of GIFs or TGAs files. The GIF files can be loaded into Prism-Paint and now you have a TT animation. Lexicor also has a utility for Prism-Paint that allows you to split/splice, underlay/overlay animations for very nice effects. Later. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 12 Thu Nov 26, 1992 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 15:57 EST J.Brenner: No, Phoenix does have its own animation utility, and we are working on some other options as upgrades. Neither Phoenix or CyberControl have any paint or touchup options. If you wish to later draw on or modify your images you must load them into a paint program. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 13 Thu Nov 26, 1992 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 19:10 EST Is there a special package price for Phase 4 . It sounds like the whole line of lexicor products used together provides a powerful animation station. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 14 Fri Nov 27, 1992 B.KOLINS1 [Brian] at 01:05 EST J.Brenner, Or should I call you See Flat? Hello, this is Bee Sharp . I too have been beta testing Phoenix, and it's most certainly a Must Have. If you need a lead on Cyber Control, E.Arthur Brown (at 800-322-4405) is having a special. Although Cyber Control is not nearly the fine program Chronos is, it's still possible to create excellent animations -- More so because of Phoenix's features. All the Lexicor products are unique, and in my opinion (not being an employee!) are worth having. When Phase4 was first introduced there was a package price. You'll probably need to check with Lee (who's on a much needed vacation at the moment) as to whether that pricing is still in effect. Brian ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 15 Sat Nov 28, 1992 D.HELMICK at 19:48 EST Lexicor, I've been slavering at the prospect of getting my hands on Phoenix ever since seeing Realm's Erik! Do I have to wait two weeks before calling in my order for it?! ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 16 Sat Nov 28, 1992 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 20:21 EST DH: Sorry, Lexicor will not be accepting any orders for Phoenix before Dec 12th, simply because there will be no-one there to take them. :-) Lexicor is on vacation till that time. John Stanford ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 17 Sun Nov 29, 1992 D.HELMICK at 06:40 EST Details, details... ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 18 Sun Nov 29, 1992 B.WEHLER [B.WEHLER] at 11:56 EST ---------- ERROR: UNABLE TO POST, TOPIC CLOSED/NOT AVAILABLE Atari ST Roundtable Category 25, Topic 19 Hello all, Thanks for the replies. And yep, the water is muddier now.:-) Currently, I have a Mega ST4 with Turbo20/John Russel FPU (68881 I believe), no graphics card. How does this compare speedwise with a Falcon? I understand that we are comparing a 68000 to a 68030, but how much of a difference is that worth? What I am considering is keeping the Mega for rendering if it is faster and using the Falcon for display video. This seems like the least investment and modest performance. However, the prices of the TT appear to be dropping, and that might make the concept much more attractive. Now, are the add-on video cards for the TT that can equal or better the video of the Falcon? Enough questions for now. Sorry to clutter this area with these questions. Prism Render sounds way cool. Thanks, Bill ---------- ERROR: UNABLE TO POST, TOPIC CLOSED/NOT AVAILABLE Atari ST Roundtable Category 25, Topic 19 ---------- ERROR: UNABLE TO POST, TOPIC CLOSED/NOT AVAILABLE Atari ST Roundtable Category 25, Topic 19 Hello all, Thanks for the replies. And yep, the water is muddier now.:-) Currently, I have a Mega ST4 with Turbo20/John Russel FPU (68881 I believe), no graphics card. How does this compare speedwise with a Falcon? I understand that we are comparing a 68000 to a 68030, but how much of a difference is that worth? What I am considering is keeping the Mega for rendering if it is faster and using the Falcon for display video. This seems like the least investment and modest performance. However, the prices of the TT appear to be dropping, and that might make the concept much more attractive. Now, are the add-on video cards for the TT that can equal or better the video of the Falcon? Enough questions for now. Sorry to clutter this area with these questions. Prism Render sounds way cool. Thanks, Bill ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 19 Sun Nov 29, 1992 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 15:32 EST Bill, I really can't say how a T20 would compare against the Falcon, you should probably ask Jim Allen that question. I will tell you that if you obtain a Falcon the best speed investment you can make is to have a 68882 math-coprocessor installed. Properly written software which uses the FPU (like Phoenix) will FLY compared to a stock machine. Under those circumstances the Falcon will be much faster than your T20. Matrix, Crazy Dots (via Gribnif), and Cyrel(?) all offer true color cards for the Mega STe and TT. The Matrix and CyberCube cards are 24 bit cards, the Crazy Dots 15 is a 15 bit card. To the best of my knowledge none of our software has been compatibility tested with these cards. You should contact their respective manufacturers for more information. Gribnif can be reached here on Genie, and they have a Crazy Dots topic in CAT17 TOP 12. John Stanford ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 20 Sun Nov 29, 1992 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 18:12 EST Ringo > I have searched the library and only found one TT low file of Pheonix. What is the file number for SPC sample. Maybe it wasn't cleared yet and I'm jumping the gun! ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 21 Sun Nov 29, 1992 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 18:58 EST There's currently only one Phoenix SPC file up, #26684 We'll be uploading some more, but I've been pretty busy lately. John Stanford ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 22 Sun Nov 29, 1992 R.LEVY8 at 19:01 EST B.Wehler For what little it is worth... if you check into the Amiga RT's or in the Video RT you can read messages that will compare some of the different processors and then rate their capabilities for animation work. It seems that most are in agreement that a 68030 at about 25MHz is a descent all around performer for animation work. So that taken into consideration I'd say the faster the CPU the better it will be for your purposes. Not that you should throw away your MEGA... as a second computer it is a very good machine. But I do not think you will be able to do a lot of the things that you want to with it. I'm running a 68030 @ 50MHz with 8Mb of RAM, Cyber Sculpt screams now! With the additional ram I can now do larger renderings in Phoenix then I was able to do before. And large scenes take mundo processor time to generate. Just a few things to contemplate. Richard ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 23 Sun Nov 29, 1992 J.NESS [Jim] at 20:25 EST I have a question about Phoenix. I have seen two examples of .GIF files rendered by Phoenix. I displayed them using CSHOW.EXE, a DOS displayer. They look great except both CAVE.GIF and CART.GIF had lots of jaggies, as if they were originally drawn in a lower rez than the final .GIF file expressed. Is this what happened? -JN ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 24 Sun Nov 29, 1992 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 21:14 EST Jim Ness: To the best of my knowledge both files were rendered at TT Low resolution of 320x480 and saved as GIF's of that resolution. Though the current version of Phoenix doesn't do edge anti-aliasing the jaggies will be no larger than the size of a pixel. I cannot vouch for the display utility you are using. If the image is filling the full screen of a 640x480 vga monitor then obviously your display program is enlarging the image and the jaggies will get bigger. We will be releasing some utilities for Phoenix shortly to cover some of the anti-aliasing aspects. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 25 Mon Nov 30, 1992 J.NESS [Jim] at 21:05 EST John Stanford - My PC viewer put the graphics up on the left half of the screen, so it did show just the first 320 pixels, horizontally. The jaggies I saw were more than a single pixel wide, within the 320 pixel width used. Thanks for the info. By the way, aside from that pickiness, I thought the results shown were very good. Definitely gave the impression of real photographed 3D objects, rather than artwork. -JN ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 26 Tue Dec 01, 1992 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 02:10 EST Jim- I haven't downloaded the actual versions up here and am away from my TT for a few days, but I've never noticed that effect in other images. I appreciate your pointing this out and I'll investigate it when I get back. Thanks for the kind words. Both were created by REALM, who has a real nack for modeling and composition. John Stanford ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 27 Tue Dec 01, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 15:25 EST Jim. The 640 X 480 256 color version look very nice. Falcon mode TGA is even better. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 28 Tue Dec 01, 1992 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 20:20 EST John or Ringo , Can the current SPC file be viewed on a 1040STf or os it only TT low? ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 29 Tue Dec 01, 1992 R.LEVY8 at 21:05 EST See Flat The .SPC are meant for people with ST,MEGA ST and MEGA STE's. They will work just fine on your computer with a suitable viewer. The GIF's are better on TT's and ST/STE computers which have graphic cards that support 256 colors or more. Hope this helps Richard ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 30 Tue Dec 01, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 22:58 EST Richard. You are correct, thanks for the post. I now have the Lexicola in SPC format ready for uploading. I had a hardrive problem and had to re-render the image. I will be uploading more SPC files. Got to render them first! Richard, I going to render and upload your files next. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 31 Wed Dec 02, 1992 R.LEVY8 at 00:20 EST Ringo After having seen some of the stuff Joey, Brian and Mick can do I'm rather embarrased about some of my stuff... artistic ability I do not clame to have... I LOVE amking objects though... and Phoenix does make the whole rendering process VERY easy!!! Richard ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 32 Wed Dec 02, 1992 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 00:29 EST You can view Spectrum SPC files just fine on a 1040. You will need a spectrum viewer though, TLCSHOW2 and SPSLIDEX I know are both here on Genie. (you could use Spectrum 512 or Unispec also.) You might try searching with the keyword VIEWER maybe. (Definitely DON'T search on the word Spectrum as you'll get hundreds of files.) If you don't have or can't find either of the files let me know and track down the file numbers. John Stanford ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 33 Wed Dec 02, 1992 D.BOWMAN9 [DAVE B] at 02:06 EST hello there, you can also view SPC files on a stock ST in 3376 colors using DMJ's spc_3375.program it is now up to version 1.7 and is file 26755. It is great to see almost STE quality with my little old 1040. later, dave b ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 34 Wed Dec 02, 1992 M.POCHE [Mick] at 02:09 EST Actually, Spectrum and Unispec can't be used to view the 4096-paletted SPC pictures. It chokes on the extra colors. I've been using SPC_3375 from DMJ Software. The newest version just got posted in the library a couple of days ago. It virtually eliminates the sync problem, and automatically switches me to 8Mhz. - Mick ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 35 Wed Dec 02, 1992 B.KOLINS1 [Brian] at 03:04 EST Richard, Give me a brake! I'm still in awe over that water flowing out of the pitcher scene. The humbling experience for me is, in part, because the features in Phoenix are soooo vast. I could spend virtually a lifetime tweaking, and I feel like I already have(i.e., bags under the eyes). You've got such a knack for modeling, and that's, at least I think, the foundation for a good scene. So knock it off... and where's my bug!? ~(:>) Brian ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 36 Wed Dec 02, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 16:43 EST I'm taking a vacation day today so that I can render your files and uploading them. Lots of nice stuff created by the Beta-testers. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 37 Wed Dec 02, 1992 R.LEVY8 at 18:27 EST Brian I'm working on it! You made it too detailed for my system... I need more RAM to be able to render it... I hope to have the RAM problem remedied by next week though... so give we a little time ;-) Read the Beat area for John S. description to me for a better description of my problem. Richard ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 38 Thu Dec 03, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 01:35 EST Richard, I'll second what Brian said... couldn't say it better myself so I didn't!:-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 39 Sun Dec 06, 1992 S.HOFFMANN at 03:52 EST John Stanford, What are the differences between Phoenix 512 and your program Render 512? I bought a copy of R512 and am quite happy with it, but if there are some really interesting new features in Phoenix, I'd be interested in o ordering it, especially if there is some sort of an upgrade policy from R512. Chuck Hoffmann ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 40 Sun Dec 06, 1992 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 16:05 EST I d/l bugpet2.spc.....wow Even on my old 1040STf it looks good. Sure helps to make things round when you have more colors. I think I'm sold. Now should I order it right away or try to win a copy in wednesdays RTC? I have to go D/L the other files.... p.s. UPS left a paper on my door on friday. From LEXICOR! I've been waiting for the demo video for a month. I guess Lee got a chance to ship it before going on vacation. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 41 Sun Dec 06, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 18:12 EST Chuck. Phoenix object render is a hundred times better than the original Render 512. The beta testers along with John St help inject all of this new features like TT/Falcon support, glow factor,etc. More later. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 42 Sun Dec 06, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 18:36 EST J.brenner. I am glad you like the Bugpet file and I hope is the Video that UPS is dropping over. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 43 Sun Dec 06, 1992 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 18:41 EST Chuck: The most significant difference is that Phoenix allows creating GIF and TGA files in any resolution and that it fully supports the TT and Falcon. The user interface has been revamped, new camera controls have been added and a couple new object attributes have been added. New features include an animation generator and background images. It is developed with a different compiler than R152 and is faster and is very solid, which R512 definitely wasn't. I will be sending letters next week to registered users of Render 512 with upgrade information. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 44 Sun Dec 06, 1992 M.POCHE [Mick] at 21:59 EST Chuck - I'll jump in here and tell you that Phoenix Object Renderer (the name was changed recently) is a much more mature, feature packed, commercial version of R512. Having been a registered version of R512 since it was first released, and now a Phoenix beta-tester, I can also tell you that if you like R512, you'll LOVE Phoenix! There should be a demo version available some time soon (right, John?). You may also want to drop in on the RTC with John Cole on Dec 9th. He will be discussing Phoenix. You may even win a free copy! I think that John should address the rest of your questions (maybe he should've addressed them all, but I couldn't resist!). - Mick ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 45 Mon Dec 07, 1992 B.KOLINS1 [Brian] at 00:18 EST J.Brenner, My too my surprise, when I opened a parcel from Lee recently... Along with my upgrades was a demo version of Phoenix. You may have more to look foward to then just the video tape. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 46 Tue Dec 08, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 22:39 EST <~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~> PHOENIX - Lexicor Software Special Conference --------------------------------------------- Wednesday December 9th ---------------------- at 10:00 p.m. EDT <--------------------------------------> With Lexicor Guests: John Cole, head of TOS development for Lexicor and John Stanford Author of PHOENIX object render. Learn all about this very powerful graphics program and the future of Lexicor Graphics. There will be a DOOR PRIZE of one FREE copy of Phoenix Object Render. So please join us! Lexicor Software Corp. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 47 Sat Dec 12, 1992 J.LYNN2 at 17:45 EST Is Phoenix 512 available now???? How much? ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 48 Sat Dec 12, 1992 J.LYNN2 at 17:47 EST Ringo, Did the CAVE. slide got there?? Did the .TIF file helped you at all? James ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 49 Sat Dec 12, 1992 C.OINES1 [Chazz] at 18:37 EST I've been playing with the demo... In general, it looks like an excellent program. Just a couple of things that really bug me: Why does it take so bloody long to delete an object from memory? It took _10_ minutes(!) to remove an 8,000-face object from RAM. That seems more than a bit excessive to me, since killing an object in the cyber programs usually takes little or no time at all. Why can't one save a PC? or PI? file directly? Saving everything as a GIF or SPC adds an extra step (conversion) to making the file useful... I haven't tried it with Cyber Control yet; I'm not sure if there are any new commands it would need or if it would choke on the more esoteric older ones. Oh, yeah... one more question: Where do I send my money? I _want_ this! ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 50 Sat Dec 12, 1992 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 19:57 EST The announced release date for Phoenix is Dec 12th. Lexicor's offices should be open on Monday. Retail price is $49.95. To use Cyber Control with Phoenix you need a replacement for the CYBSMASH.ACC which wasn't included with the demo. This file is included with the full version. The only Cyber Control commands which aren't supported are the obvious ones like for creating extrude and spin templates, and the background images because Cyber's method of handling them is incompatible. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 51 Sat Dec 12, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 21:33 EST James. Yes, I did receive the CAVE slide and the TIFF works just fine. Thanks. See mail later. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 52 Sat Dec 12, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 22:26 EST To order Phoenix Object render please contact: Lexicor Software Corp. 58 Redwood Rd. Fairfax, CA 94930 Phone: 415-453-0271 FAX: 415-453-0533 ----------------- I had no problems deleting objects from Phoenix-demo it was fast. How about more detail information please. Later. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 53 Sun Dec 13, 1992 C.OINES1 [Chazz] at 09:00 EST Currently, I'm running a 4-meg 8mhz 1040STE, with about 1.5 megs of accessories & TSRs clogging up the lower end of RAM. I've got a 52-meg FaST drive and a SyQuest 44, if it's important. Okay, take some moderately complex object cluster, say, 90k worth of detailed models in a single file (I always set up things this way for CControl - that way, there's only one file to load, and everything important is included, and there are no conflicting palettes). Select a largish object from the middle of the list (in my case, it was the 7800-face twisted object mentioned earlier). In CAD-3D or Cyber Sculpt; deleting it takes so close to no time at all that you barely notice it. In the Demo, it took literally 10 minutes for the bee to change back to a pointer and return control to me. I've tried it on a bare system (no accs, no auto programs other than the ICD clock setter), and it still takes 10 minutes. On an unrelated subject; how about an option (for those of us who expect to do a lot of 16-color animations) to restrict the palette to the colors specified in the model? I've tried a few ST Low renderings, and the results, I'm sorry to say, were bug-ugly. Lots of black dots adjacent to bright colors (brighter than any specified in the model's palette). I expected pictures similar to the ones that RezRender (from the late STart magazine) produces, but that didn't happen. I got much more attractive results rendering at SPC level and then bringing the image down to 16 colors with Crack Art or STyle; perhaps this could be looked into as a way to do the job without that nasty x-dithering that it currently produces. On the bright side, the 256+ color images it's produced have been staggeringly beautiful. I'm definitely ordering a copy on Monday, if only for that capability alone. If the product can (using a CC script) pump out a series of 256 color GIF frames with the quality already shown, then Phoenix is a keeper. And be prepared to stuff the box with Silicon Graphics flyers; the company I work for is on the verge of purchasing an Iris, and I'd like to make sure that they know about your software & hardware when I get back from my vacation. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 54 Sun Dec 13, 1992 S.BURTON2 at 12:22 EST Where is the Phoenix demo? I haven't been able to find that or the old Render 512 program? Has it been deleted or something? Shane ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 55 Sun Dec 13, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 12:46 EST Chazz. When render STlow animations you have to be carefull with 16 color limit. Try not to use 256 or 512 images mapped onto objects. If you are using Cyber- Control you may render SPC animations that look much better. The program includes a utility that will take a series of SPC files and create a SPS animation. Check your email for sample STlow GIF files. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 56 Sun Dec 13, 1992 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 14:19 EST Shane, The Phoenix demo is file #26877 in Lib 39. Chazz, I'm not sure what your problem is with deleting objects. I ran a couple tests on a 8mhz Mega 4 with a 11039 face 3D2 object which Phoenix had reduced to 7705 faces. This object deleted in 30 seconds. I haven't tried it on a clean system so perhaps there's an "anti" conflict somewhere? I should point out though that Phoenix is NOT Cad-3D or Cyber Sculpt. These programs do not do smooth shading, shadows, texture mapping and have a 30,000 face limit. To add these capabilities Phoenix has to do things a little differently. One of the side-effects of that is that it takes a little while to delete an object. It definitely does not take 10 minutes though. I'll dig around and see what I can find on you problem. Phoenix is intended for high resolution, high quality color output. In my opinion it is not possible to meet these requirements in 16 color resolutions. I think you would find RezRender or Lexicor's Render for Sculpt much better suited to your needs in this area as they are designed around these restrictions. Restricting the palette to the colors used in the model is not a practical solution. Consider that each object in Phoenix may have its own unique set of 16 face colors. Multiply this by the 100 or 200 objects you may load into a scene, and add on some image maps with their own color palettes and you'll see you've quickly exceeded 16 colors. However,depending on the palette options set in the Configure Dialog what you see when previewing a rendering is not the final image. For speed the preview is dithered from a fixed palette of colors. Under the Render Image section of the Configure Dialog you should select Best Palette and Pattern or Random dither. Assuming you used a realistic number of colors in your objects the results should be acceptable. If you're rendering a ST Low image and Render View is set to Best you can view the actual final image by clicking the mouse on the Phoenix Icon. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 57 Sun Dec 13, 1992 M.POCHE [Mick] at 14:21 EST Chazz - If you plan on doing alot of 16 color animations, perhaps you should look into Chronos for that. Phoenix's really a still-frame renderer, with animation capabilities thrown in, but it can definitely do some _very_ nice full-color animations. I don't think that Phoenix uses the color palette from Cyber Sculpt directly, just the "base" color of each object. I could be wrong though! John Stanford can/will probably answer the rest of your questions better than I can. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 58 Sun Dec 13, 1992 S.BURTON2 at 17:20 EST File #26877 is nowhere to be found in any library. Take a look! Gremlins, maybe? ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 59 Sun Dec 13, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 18:40 EST Shane & all. The DEMO version will be re-release very soon, at the moment it is not in the library. Watch for a special announcement from Darlah. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 60 Sun Dec 13, 1992 C.OINES1 [Chazz] at 22:45 EST Yep... found the problem with the 16-color renderings... impatience. The spectrum previews looked so good I thought the 16-color ones would as well. I brought a few to completion now, and while they're not masterpieces; they're pretty good. My apologies for jumping the gun. OTOH, if it's as easy to fling out a spectrum animation as Ringo said, STLow can take a flying leap! I've gotten some nice, DTPable results in STMono as well, especially after creating a 640x400 background GIF called "White.GIF" to avoid soaking the deskjet paper ;) Deleting large objects still takes considerable time, so I just do it from Csculpt now... Now another annoyance: The "Glow Factor" is only available when the demo is run from monochrome for some reason. When using the program in medium res, the glow factor (a neat special effect, btw) dialog is replaced by something about "resolution __ faces per whatever". Not a major problem, but a puzzling one. I can barely wait to make my order... this thing's got enormous potential. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 61 Sun Dec 13, 1992 J.COLE18 [John Cole] at 23:03 EST I believe that the demo has been Hidden! And for a good reason :-) Look for it as a 'Treat' RSN ;-) Patiencs everyone, I'm sure it's worth the wait! John @ Lexicor ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 62 Sun Dec 13, 1992 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 23:30 EST Chazz: The "glow factor" is alive and well in ST medium res, just a little glitch in the resource file of the demo gives it the different name. I'm glad to see you've been able to prowl around and explore some of the options considering the lack of documentation. John Stanford ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 64 Mon Dec 14, 1992 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 03:09 EST Announcement from Darlah? sounds like treat time to me! ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 65 Mon Dec 14, 1992 M.EVERHART2 [MIDIMIKE] at 03:49 EST What happened to the demo? I went to download it and it's gone from the library! ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 66 Mon Dec 14, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 15:10 EST I will start uploading some new Spectrum animations to the library tonight. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 67 Tue Dec 15, 1992 C.OINES1 [Chazz] at 19:52 EST I've been playing with the glow & transparency effects... got a nice atmosphere around a planet by putting a sphere inside a slightly larger one, setting the outer sphere's transparency to about 65%, and putting a very twisty marble texture on it. The planet sphere (inside) had blue & green woodgrain and was obscured just enough to hide the woodgrain look itself. The result was a misty, earth-like planet to rival Lucasfilm's best. Pointed at the world, I had a complex spun shape colored in reds, yellows, and a darkest-grey (111 in the ST Palette) framework set to a glow factor of 65. The reds and yellows glowed brightly through the dark grey, and the phong highlights along the grey sections gave it the look of a burnished steel cage holding in the glowing sections. Shame it had all those blank lines through it ;) ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 68 Tue Dec 15, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 23:40 EST Chazz. Glad you are having FUN and the blank lines are only in the demo. Order the final version and you will enjoy it even more. Specially with Spectrum animation support etc. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 69 Fri Dec 18, 1992 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 19:23 EST John > I have been playing with the Phoenix demo all day. I think it's great! Can't wait to get the real thing. I must say there is much to much to do without any docs. But still, I'm very excited about all the fun I'm going to have. Are the docs in a binder? (I dont' expect it at $49.00) Everone should d/l this demo, I'm sure if you like graphics, you'll be bying this. Where is that UPS guy anyway!!! ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 70 Sun Dec 20, 1992 R.LEVY8 at 17:01 EST John With the new .RD1 format... is there any chance of us seeing a program to convert them to .RIB format ( would be a GREAT help for rnedering onto other platforms... to and from other platforms that is). Richard ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 71 Sun Dec 20, 1992 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 18:11 EST Richard: The objects in an RD1 file are basically the same as the original 3D2 objects they were imported from. The main difference in the file is the additional texturing information. Lexicor's Rosetta will create a RIB (Renderman Interface Bitstream) file from 3D2 objects. To make a translation from RD1 to RIB worthwhile Renderman shaders would also have to be written to duplicate the texturing routines in Phoenix, and I am not that familiar with the Renderman language. So basically, no. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 72 Tue Dec 22, 1992 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 06:52 EST Something peculiar, I loaded Viking RD1 and deleted all objects that make up the viking. I kept the sphere and tiles. I then merged LEXICOR7.3D2 logo. I curved the logo to around the sphere, over the tiles. Added some light sources. I then beggan render and went to bed :-) I got up this morning....very nice....Logo reflecting light, shadow on tiles ....but? What's this? I still see the reflection of Joey's viking in the sphere! He ain't in the picture but his ghost is there! I guess I'll understand better when I have the docs. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 73 Tue Dec 22, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 08:55 EST J.Brenner What you see as a reflection of the viking on the sphere is actually an image of the viking mapped onto the sphere. It is a simulated reflection. Under attributes select objects in the dialog next select the Sphere object from the object list see how the "texture" button is select click on that and in the next dialog click on image and now you have the Image mapping menu! left side of the menu you will see the word image click on that and now you will see the name of the image that was mapped onto the sphere. later. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 74 Tue Dec 22, 1992 ATARIAUSTRIA [J.Widi] at 13:12 EST Toying around with the Phoenix demo - that seems to be a very nice tool. I have already ordered it from my dealer to get rid of those nasty black stripes:-) Lack of documentation is a drag now - took me several hours to find out that textures & image mapping require phong shading to happen at all. What is .PDC ?? What does it do besides adding huge mysterious files to my harddisk? Any hint is appreciated. I also have dozens of ideas for little changes/ enhancements. Here are two of them: Throughout the Cyber series and most of the Lexicor products as well you can go from a graphic or preview screen back to the main menu by pressing the right mouse button. This is deeply wired into my brain and I constantly try it when I look at the Phoenix preview screen. Only there it does not work, I am forced to press the ESC-key. Please let the me use the right mouse do the same. The next generation of Lexicor products would benefit from a more consistent user interface that does not change as much as it does now from product to product. Another thing: Although Phoenix is fast, rendering complex objects with various light sources and shadows - naturally - takes a lot of time. Time that may be used to do other things if You work in a multitasking environment, which will soon become a reality on the Falcon. Alas, Phoenix displays its rendering status in a dialog box, so there is no way to switch to other programs or do something else, even under MultiTOS. What I also would like to see is the ability to abort a rendering process and resume it later from the point where You stopped. -Johannes ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 75 Tue Dec 22, 1992 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 14:53 EST Johannes - PDC is a Phoenix Depth Channel file. It saves the depth information from the image for later use with Meridian (comming soon) for image processing and other effects like overlaying, depth of field, motion blur, etc. Your other points are well taken and are areas we wish to address. Unfortuantely our Spectrum display module disables the mouse interupt, making it impossible to use the right mouse button. This was carried over to the other resolutions also in the interest of consistency within the application. Any key will work though. There are alot more things than just the rendering dialog which make Phoenix a poor canidate for task switching under MultiTOS. Since MultiTOS is not yet a reality for the general public we felt it best not to delay release for that. John Stanford ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 76 Tue Dec 22, 1992 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 23:30 EST John- Have you considered the PhotoChrome format at all? Seems much nicer than Spectrum. He's 'giving away' the source for around $7.50 I think. -Tom McComb {11:15 pm} Tuesday, December 22, 1992 ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 77 Wed Dec 23, 1992 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 01:40 EST As a stable package, PhotoChrome is a relatively recent development and as such I've not had the opportunity to investigate it. Lack of a STe also hinders it somewhat. Phoenix can create a 24bit true color Targa file which I understand Photochrome loads and converts quite nicely. John Stanford ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 78 Wed Dec 23, 1992 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 18:07 EST Ringo > Thanks, I will check start rending once more. John > It would be nice if there was some sort of indication as to what frame Phoenix is working on while rendering an animation. That way I would have a better idea as if I should be making supper or wait to see what my work looks like :-) Also, I hope the black lines are not in the RD1 files ;-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 79 Wed Dec 23, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 20:34 EST J.Brenner1 The current built in animation function within Phoenix is just to give you a small taste of things to come, after all this is version 1.0. Thanks for the suggestions they are always welcome. You may want to try Cyber-Control and Phoenix it lets you know what frame is rendering and it display it on the screen. John St. is taking a break for the moment. He did put in lots of none stop hours into this program. Us beta testers know how hard he worked on it. Future versions and new applications from Lexicor are something like: Wait until you see the wonders of say animation, rendering, paint programs etc. This is just the first step into the next generation of applications for the Falcon. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 80 Thu Dec 24, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 00:50 EST See Flat, I eat in front of the computer that solves those problems.:-) Plus the radiation coming off the thing keeps my food warm.:-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 81 Mon Dec 28, 1992 AEO.3 [Lyre] at 18:00 EST Realm, >Plus the radiation coming off the thing keeps my food warm.:-) ROFL! This is probably the best excuse for eating in front of the computer that I've heard in a long, long time! ;) Lyre 5:44 pm, December 28, 1992 ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 82 Mon Dec 28, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 20:17 EST Lyre,:-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 83 Tue Dec 29, 1992 C.OINES1 [Chazz] at 19:14 EST Is it shipping yet? (waiting for UPS) ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 84 Thu Dec 31, 1992 LEXICOR [Lee] at 05:59 EST We shipped out the first 20 copies Christmass eve day, next shipment goes out Monday Jan 3 1993. As the orders build we will increase our shipping interval to keep the products flowing. Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 85 Thu Dec 31, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 19:36 EST ------------------- N.O.T.I.C.E. --------------------------- For anyone that has not seen a Phoenix render image please check the latest issue of Genie Livewire Page 27. You will see an image created by Joey Sherman using Phoenix Object Render."It is a splendid, 3-D rendered wooden Viking in GIF format ERIKVIK1.LZH file number 26122." Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 86 Thu Dec 31, 1992 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 23:34 EST So Ringo, what is N.O.T.I.C.E. an acronym for anyway? ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 87 Fri Jan 01, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 01:57 EST John St. I hoping that you would give a hand with that Acronym, help! No, I was just using he periods/dots for extra space. Happy new year everyone!!! Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 88 Fri Jan 01, 1993 C.OATES2 [Chris] at 06:25 EST I will send out a check for whatever amount it costs to buy Phoenix on monday (New years eve, y'know, things are closed tomorrow) IF: I can render images in large, high color resolutions. As you may knpw from my posts in other areas, I have a Crazy Dots board, and would LOVE to create some stunning 800x600x256 or x32767 color GIF files for showing off to people... If my only choices are spectrum or TT low 256 colors, I'd rather wait for something else... If it will do that, (I only played with the demo a bit) then tell me how much to send and where, and I'll get it! Also, Phoenix supports Cyber control? wow I bought that, but it said that I needed to upgrade my Cad 3D and by the time I got to thinking about it Antic was dead.... gotta dig up those disks.. Yowza... I may be getting too much stuff... Is there a significant difference with doing animations on Phoenix & Cyb Control vs Chronos? eagerly awaiting a response, Chris ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 89 Fri Jan 01, 1993 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 06:56 EST Chris, Phoenix is $49.95. It will render any resolution and number of colors your heart desires creating GIF or TGA files. BTW theres no such thing as a 32K color GIF, they're limited to 256 colors. In the demo select the Configure dialog and set the image resolution to custom and you can enter the resolution you want below. Make sure to set your view resolution to Current instead of Best to keep it from trying to display Spectrums on your CD. Cyber Control is a programming language for creating animations. Its learning curve is VERY steep. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 90 Fri Jan 01, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 18:19 EST John, I was wondering how much faster is Phoenix on the Falcon? Also, would it be possible to add a grid as an option in the object positioning section. Perspective gets a little difficult when there are many objects in the picture. Getting tired of playing with the demo and not knowing what I'm doing, looking forward to recieving my copy! I hope it gets here real soon! John B. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 91 Fri Jan 01, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 21:47 EST See Flat, Lexicor is now shipping the product, hope you enjoy it and thanks for the input. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 92 Fri Jan 01, 1993 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 22:34 EST John Brenner: I don't have any real numbers on the speed improvement of a Falcon over an ST. If you plug a 68882 co-processor into its socket in the Falcon the special co- processor version of Phoenix will fly, at least five times faster than your ST. We'll add the grid option onto our list of improvements for Phoenix. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 93 Sat Jan 02, 1993 J.LEBLANC3 [Jeff] at 00:02 EST ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 94 Sat Jan 02, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 00:08 EST Ringo, I placed my order on the 14 of December. With Phoenix I have Chronos and bundled stuff comming. I was hoping it had been shipped on the 15th :-) but I guess it all left on the 24th with Phoenix. I'll have to be patient. John, hmmmm, so Falcon doesn't have co-processor. If it's speeds things up there is no question that I will get one. I would assume Falcon will at least be twice as fast as my ST to begin with. You mention "special co-processor version of Phoenix" You mean that's not what's comming? I saw on the demo version doc the mention that demo didnt' use math chip but I assumed the version I ordered would. I love all these colours and textures, I'm going to need all the speed I get get if I want to render in TGA. One of you mentioned Cybercontrol was tough. Is it very unpleasant? I dont' like numbers very much and I don't think in an abstract fashion, I'm more the visual type so give me a good interface anyday. And also is it on the Cybersculp disk? So far Phoenix is fine to work with, I'm only having difficulty with the animation. it doesn't always do the same thing and I can't figure out what I've done differently. I'll wait for docs. ;-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 95 Sat Jan 02, 1993 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 00:46 EST Jeff: Your message didn't make it, just a blank post. John B. For maximum speed and efficiency (and because its the only way the compiler will do it) there is a seprate version of Phoenix for use on machines with an 882 co-processor. Both versions are on the Phoenix disk. Cyber Control is a programming language, nothing visual about it though the text of the program IS visually displayed on the screen :-) It is a seprate program from Cyber Sculpt and is not currently available from Lexicor. We are working on a module for ANM files but its not ready yet. The built in animation in Phoenix is pretty basic, and there are definitely some pitfalls which are described in the manual. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 96 Sat Jan 02, 1993 LEXICOR [Lee] at 04:32 EST JB, The first 50 copies sold out the first Day, We got most wrapped and shipped in two batches, on went out on the 15th the rest will go out Jan 4 aftere the holidays. Then after that we ship twice a week on the average. Your order has been processed for sure, And will be shipped the 4th if it did not got out on the 15th. Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 97 Sat Jan 02, 1993 CBARRON at 04:58 EST A coprecessor, if supported speeds tremendously, if the compressor is on a TT/Falcon/standard Motorola installation, provided that: 1) the software or a special version of it exists that supports the FPU. It is stated that that is true for pheonix. 2) the program uses floating pt. arithmetic. (also stated to be true). A factor of five for a 16mhz/030/68882 seems about right. Convector runs about a factor of 10 on my 32mhzTT. so halving that and it is a good ball park figure. FPU support is a welcomed bit of news. The demo which I guess does not look for an FPU is 'slow' on my TT. Who should I email a USnail address for product infromation, it seems that I am confused as what products work with what. What products support what VME video cards, what VME cards don't work, etc. Not in a super hurry, just spent $1200 on two programs. Power with price! (not lexicor products, dynacad and maple 5.2, if my figures are right with maple 5.2, still not avail. but soon ...) I like well written programs that do what they are supposed to and then some. Most of this lexicor stuff looks like that and cheaper than $500 a crack. . Cyber control's language is a sort of BASIC for controlling/creating 3d2 objects. it is NOT intuitive to say the least. I have used it with cad2.x on St systems. Chronos, from the reviews I have read is at least 3 magnituedes easier than cyber control's language. Gee, my C compiler has autodetecting fpu libs, it is faster to inline it to the fpu of course and am glad to see you went that route. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 98 Sat Jan 02, 1993 C.OINES1 [Chazz] at 08:15 EST I'm pretty comfortable with Cyber Control, myself, but then, when I forced myself to learn it, there was *no* substitute... it's better than keyframing in some respects, and much worse in others. I'll be interested to see how (or if) some of the special effects (transparency, glow, etc.) can be controlled from the CC script... The benefits: You have extremely precise control over everything. You can move an object directly to the exact spot you want in any way you'd like. It supports complex math: you can model gravity, friction, random behavior, and even some crude AI between frames, making everything move more naturally. If you grew up with the older computers (Trash80s, 8-bits, and the early IBMs) and Mickeysoft Basic, you'll be fairly comfortable with Cyber Control's concepts. On the other hand, Cyber Control requires you to _learn_ it. You have to study the damn thing, and go through the tutorials and waste time experimenting. You also have to be willing to set everything up and take notes before starting, especially if you're going to have mobile interior light sources. Keyframing a la Chronos is considerably easier, especially if all you want to do is whing objects around and take pictures... ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 99 Sat Jan 02, 1993 C.OATES2 [Chris] at 13:37 EST O.K. so I didn't play with it enough to find out for myself that Phoenix does what I want... now all I need is to free up some memory in order to DO some renderings... How much memory DOES it take to do, say, the viking demo in 800 x 600 x 32768 ?? Chris P.S. so, where do I mail my check, and how much? ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 100 Sat Jan 02, 1993 C.OATES2 [Chris] at 13:50 EST I am just now beginning to discover the wonders of writing a message in Aladdin off-line only do discover that it has already been answered... :) So, Phoenix does what I want, great! It costs 49.95, great! How much for shipping/sales tax? I don't have a credit card, so I need to mail you a check for the whole amount... I'm in CA so tax is a factor... And lastly, how much speed-up can I expect from a 68882 in my Mega STE? And I thought I had seen a 32K color GIF... hmm... well, then I guess it'll be TGA files then? do you know of a good viewer for them? I use Gview (downloaded from GEnie) for most of my viewings, does it support TGA? Thanks again, Chris ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 101 Sat Jan 02, 1993 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 14:47 EST If you wish to order Phoenix directly from Lexicor it is $49.95 plus $5.00 shipping. There is a special bundle price of Phoenix w/ Cyber Sculpt also, you should call Lexicor for info. Lexicor Software Corp 58 Redwood Rd Fairfax CA 94930 415 453-0271 I really don't have a figure on how much memory that will take without rendering it at that resolution. It will render fine in 4 megs. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 102 Sat Jan 02, 1993 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 17:10 EST The Mega STe's and other coprocessor addons for the 68000 use the 68881 coprocessor as a peripheral. The standard version of the program will use the 68881 if available, though the speed increase will not be very great due to the overhead of peripheral mode. I do not believe its possible to add a 68882 to a 68000 with direct processor communication. I admit I don't know much about this kind of stuff so I may be wrong on the above, but I do know the 882 version of Phoenix will only run on a 68030 with a math coprocessor. Yes, you'll need to add CA tax to the order if you live in California, I'll assume you know what it is since you live there and I don't. Gemview doesn't support Targas. Since you've paid your shareware fee for it (you have, right?) you could write the author a letter asking him to add it, we can provide him the documentation if he needs it. If you purchase Phoenix and can't find anything to display targas or convert them to TIFF or JPEG which you can display with Gemview contact me in e-mail and I'll make a little TGA viewer program for the CrazyDots for you. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 103 Tue Jan 05, 1993 J.COLE18 [John Cole] at 22:45 EST Lexicor Software's flags for the Atari ST roundtable have expired. We will resume support on GEnie as soon as the situation has been resolved. We thank everyone for being patient. John @ Lexicor ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 104 Wed Jan 06, 1993 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 15:46 EST I will continue to provide full support for Lexicor's Phoenix to the best of my abilities while the remainder of Lexicor is on thier GENIE hiatus. John Stanford ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 105 Thu Jan 07, 1993 C.OATES2 [Chris] at 00:49 EST Well, I just bought STyle... It doesn't view Targas either, but I posted over there requesting it... Chris ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 106 Thu Jan 07, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 02:43 EST Chris > You can view Targas with Photochrome 3 If that's what your looking to do that is :-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 107 Thu Jan 07, 1993 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 11:03 EST Photochrome does not work on a Crazy Dots 15 in true color mode. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 108 Fri Jan 08, 1993 C.OATES2 [Chris] at 22:45 EST And, as I have discovered, neither does STyle at the moment... But that's another topic... and I've already been there... :) ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 109 Sun Jan 10, 1993 ATARIAUSTRIA [J.Widi] at 12:11 EST Boy, am I tired! The postman came with Phoenix 512 yesterday and I really didn't get much sleep later, paging through the manual and rendering lexicola cans all the night :-) This sure is an amazing product. Rendering on a TT is FAST, especially when You have tried to use Prism Render before ;-) I can't wait to test it on a Falcon to see how results are there. Like all version 1.0 products it has room for improvements so I'll post my ideas here. I tried to animate the lexicola can and brush up some stray pixels using Prism Paint. The first thing I noticed was the big difference in picture quality when You switch from 'best' to 'fixed' palette for rendering. I would like to have a third option: render the first picture and use the resulting palette as a 'fixed' palette for the remaining frames. I think results would be almost as good as with 'best' palette setting and You could still use tools like Prism Paint which rely on fixed palettes. This could also be achived if You allow for the loading and saving of palette (*.PAL) files. So we could also use Prism Paint to modify and build customized palettes for special needs. And there is room for three buttons ('fixed', 'best' and 'custom') BTW, what about a GIF to FLM converter to fill the gap until You release a replacement for Prism Paint? Or as a goodie for the people who have Prism Paint and don't want to upgrade yet? -Johannes ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 110 Sun Jan 10, 1993 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 13:23 EST Johannes: Glad you like Phoenix! That is an excellent idea for the custom palette option and something which wouldn't be too dificult to add. Of course there is always the chance that the palette for a particular frame would be VERY bad for another due to different lighting, textures etc. On the Graphics disk you should find the GIFTOVDO builder and VDO player, which will let you display BEST palette animations. VDO is still in its infancy and has a ways to go yet, but it does let you get something moving without having to settle for the FIXED palette. -John ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 111 Sun Jan 10, 1993 R.MONFORT1 [Ringo] at 13:38 EST VDO is going to replace the FLM format as it support the multiple palette format for animations. I'm rendering an animation at the moment using the VDO player etc. This one may make it to the library some time today. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 112 Sun Jan 10, 1993 B.WEHLER [B.WEHLER] at 14:10 EST Richard, That 50MHz 68030 you mentioned, is that the FastTech 68030? Thanks, Bill ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 113 Tue Jan 12, 1993 R.MONFORT1 [Ringo] at 23:42 EST This was taken from the roundtable and I would like to thank N.FRAGA for posting the question and favor to Phoenix. Ringo ----------------------- Atari-ST RoundTable Category 14, Topic 8 Message 107 Tue Jan 12, 1993 N.FRAGA at 20:54 EST I don't know where else to ask this type of question so I figured this place would have to do. Is there anyway we can install a 68881 co-processor into the Atari 520 STE? Other than buying a 68030 accelerator? A 16Mhz 68000, since it would be alot cheaper that way. I want to really use Phoenix 512! Thanks ---------- P.S. more later. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 114 Wed Jan 13, 1993 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 02:04 EST To TT users of Phoenix: I forgot to set the program flags in Phoenix to run from TT ram. You should set the prgflags for Phoenix to run from TT ram to increase its speed. The use TT ram flag doesn't matter as Phoenix does its own memory allocation to use TT ram first and ST ram second. This applys to both the demo and full versions. Ringo: Pls inform N.FRAGA that I believe 68000 accelerators w/ 68881 coprocessors are available from Fast Technology. However I don't believe Phoenix will see much of a speed increase with an 881. You really need an 030 with a 68882 to see a significant speed improvement. Also Phoenix does not need a coprocessor to run, however it will NOT run on a 512K machine but needs 1 meg or more memory. He should move to this topic or Fast Tech's which I believe is CAT4 top 11. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 115 Thu Jan 14, 1993 SANDY.W [sysop] at 23:14 EST Will the Phoenix demo run on a one meg machine? ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 116 Thu Jan 14, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 23:47 EST Sandy. The demo does run on a one meg Machine. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 117 Fri Jan 15, 1993 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 19:27 EST The demo runs on a 1 meg machine, however the sample viking object included with the demo is quite large and needs two megs. I uploaded a simple tutorial file tonight (yet to be approved) which walks through some of Phoenix's features and includes objects which will render on a 1 meg machine. John ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 118 Fri Jan 15, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 21:20 EST John St. The tutorial is now in the Lexicor library #39, nice work and very good idea! Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 119 Sat Jan 16, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 00:35 EST For everyone that has downloaded the Phoenix demo I recommend the latest file that John Stanford just uploaded. The file is now in the library and it is PHNX_TUT.LZH file number 27330 in the Lexicor library number 39. The file includes an excellent text file plus 2 RD1 files and GIFs. All of this files work with a 1 meg system. Thanks John St. Later. Ringo F. Monfort. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 120 Sat Jan 16, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 14:43 EST John, thanks for the tutorial, I've d/l it but haven't read it yet. My Phoenix demo doesn't run in Medium rez anymore. I get a can't find RSC file alert. It runs in High perfect. Was there two RSC files and I chucked one by mistake? i'm still having fun but I have to reboot in Medium to see what I've rendered. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 121 Sat Jan 16, 1993 EXPLORER.1 [] Ron [] at 15:02 EST We're having a blast with the Phoenix demo and John Stanford's tutorial on the Falcon! I'm not exactly the artistic type but you don't need to be to have fun with this program. Phoenix is a very, very impressive software product and shows off the Falcon quite well. I'm about ready to pull the FPU out of my MSTe and move it to the Falcon to see what kind of performance improvement the FPU provides. Thanks for the demo and the tutorial Lexicor - much appreciated! Ron @ Atari Explorer Magazine ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 122 Sat Jan 16, 1993 AEO.4 [Doyle @ AEO] at 16:04 EST Ron, If you do pull the FPU from your MSTE, please try to note any slow down in rendering. I spoke with John Stanford about performance with a FPU in a MSTE and he really wasn't sure if the speed increase was worth the cost of the FPU package($100+- a few bucks). If you do notice a dramitic decrease in rendering, I WILL find my MSTE a FPU quickly!! :) Thanx-- Doyle~ ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 123 Sat Jan 16, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 17:04 EST Ron, You lucky dog!:-) Which resolutions can use on the NEC 3D for rendering? ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 124 Sat Jan 16, 1993 R.LEVY8 at 19:25 EST Bill W. Soory for the delay to your reply... I don't get in this area too often anymore. The 030 is Jim Allen's model... a REALLY fast setup, I have the virtual memory also... a very nice feature for programs that will work with it. soory => sorry Richard ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 125 Sat Jan 16, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 21:29 EST Doyle! AEO number 4, well nice to see you in this areas! ----------- Phoenix renders 512 color images or animations for ST users and for persons with TTs it works just great. Falcon users will love the true color images that this great program creates. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 126 Sun Jan 17, 1993 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 00:23 EST Yes, there are two resource files for Phoenix. PHOENIX.RSC and PHOENIX1.RSC. Ron: I know next to nothing about hardware like FPU's and stuff, but that might not be a good idea as the Mega has an 881 instead of an 882. I really don't know if the two are interchangeable or not, I'd check with an "expert" first. At any rate, on the Falcon you won't see ANY improvement from an FPU without the commercial version of Phoenix. I do know that as it is handled differently with the 030's. I'd also be very interested in any figures in rendering time on a MegaSTe with and without a FPU. John Hey Richard: Does Phoenix work w/ Jim's VM? ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 127 Sun Jan 17, 1993 CBARRON at 01:31 EST Doyle the 68881 is connected to the m68000 in peripheral mode. As a result of the overhead of this method the 68881 generally offers some but not dramatic improvements for floating point operations. The 68882 in the TT and avail. for FAlcons is connected by 'coprocessor mode'. Results in huge speed ups of floating point operations. This is a generally true statement. My advice if you think you need an FPU, get an 030 'upgrade' of some kind,tos 3+ and install it in coprocessor mode. It does wonders on mine.... ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 128 Sun Jan 17, 1993 AEO.4 [Doyle @ AEO] at 17:51 EST Ringo, I drop by here all the time, I just don't get into the conversations too often. I drop in and look for tricks and tips for Phoenix. Take Care-- Doyle~ CBARRON, Thanks for the explanation about the 68882/881. I was just wondering if the speed difference was worth the $100 FPU upgrade or not. John, When I do my review on Phoenix I too would like a before and after FPU benchmarks with the 68881 in the MSTe. If you find some "INSTALLED" times I will appreciate it if you drop me E-Mail(or here for that matter) with those stats. I will do the same if I find some. Shall we request the benchmarks be based on the RD1 files in your tutorial? How about some TT benchmark times also? Anyone help us out here? :) ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 129 Sun Jan 17, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 20:43 EST Doyle, Any time saved off of rendering should easily pay for the FPU. It should at least cut the time in half. If you can, get a 68882 at 32Mhz. You can always move that to something else such as the Falcon later. It should run fine at 16Mhz from what I understand. I've also been told you can easily make the 68882 run at 32Mhz in the Falcon. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 130 Sun Jan 17, 1993 D.HELMICK at 20:45 EST I received Phoenix the other day, and I've been having a terrific time with it! And all I've really been doing with it is modelling fruit... wait 'til I try the texture mapping! One question, slightly on the technical side. I've used the program Flagset to have Phoenix load into TT RAM...but there's another option in Flagset, to ALLOCATE TT RAM. How does this differ from loading into TT RAM? And if I do want to select it, how much of the RAM would you recommend allocating? ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 131 Sun Jan 17, 1993 R.LEVY8 at 21:12 EST John Stanford Yes Phoenix (the Beta version anyway) works very nicely with VM... I'd say a the speed of an unmodified ST. It does go and use TT ram then ST ram first then when they are used up it uses the VM memory. Use a VERY FAST HD for the best results. Richard ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 132 Sun Jan 17, 1993 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 22:16 EST Phoenix benchmarks: I'm not around my main system now but I do recall a couple benchmark figures. These figures are for the VIKING3.RD1 object included with the demo rendered as Spectrum using Phong shading (and NO shadows). On a Mega ST 4 it rendered in 21 or 22 minutes. On a TT using the FPU version the image rendered in 2 minutes 6 seconds. I don't have numbers for a TT with the non-fpu version, but thats kinda pointless anyway. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 133 Sun Jan 17, 1993 AEO.4 [Doyle @ AEO] at 22:29 EST Joey, Thanks for the tip on the 68882! Are you suggesting that the 68882 will work in my MSTE? WOW! If so, were is a good place to call about obtaining a FPU setup for the MSTE? Computer Studio did not carry the FPU package when I called several weeks ago. If the 68882 will work in place of the 68881, will there be a BIG price difference? Thanx-- Doyle Software Editor @ Atari Explorer Online-- BTW- Did you see Computer Chronicles yesterday? Amiga 4000 rendering some 3D objects with MASSIVE texture mapping at speeds like old DEGAS doing a fill pattern on a classic ST. This system was running in TRUE COLOR mode. I surely hope the Falcon and Phoneix can do the same. If so, would anybody like to buy a slighty used but very nice spouse? :) ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 134 Sun Jan 17, 1993 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 22:47 EST An FPU on a mega STe will NOT cut your rendering time in half. I don't know what the actual figure is, but that is way off. D.Helmick: The ALLOCATE TT RAM flag causes programs to fetch any memory it allocates from TT ram instead of ST ram. The TT can access fast ram much quicker than ST ram. However some programs won't work with this flag set - particulary ones which directly access screen memory. There is not an option for setting how much ram it will allocate. The program will draw whatever memory it needs from TT ram instead of ST ram. This flag has no effect with Phoenix as it uses its own memory handler to enable it to use both TT and ST ram. John ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 135 Mon Jan 18, 1993 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 00:13 EST Doyle: I really don't think an 882 will work in a Mega STe. But again my knowledge on this is limited. I've exhausted my information on the subject. You really should move this discussion to one of the appropriate hardware topics in CAT 4. Lexicor cannot confirm nor guarantee that an FPU installed in an ST or Mega STe will provide any significant speed increase with Phoenix. It is within the realm of possibility that it may actually slow Phoenix down. When the FPU version of Phoenix is used with a TT significant speed increases are experienced. This is also true if an appropriate 68882 coprocessor is installed in a Falcon. Lexicor cannot provide recommendations or instructions for FPU selection or installation. Installation of an FPU may void your computer's warranty or actually damage it if done improperly. John Stanford - Lexicor ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 136 Mon Jan 18, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 00:20 EST Doyle, Using the 68882 might be a slight hassle. The Mega STe directions say it will use the 68882 but I don't know if anyone has tried it. The only problem would be aquiring the PAL chip that goes with it. Atari's kit comes all nice and complete if when you can find it.:-) I know where to get all the pieces so let me check into it and send you E-Mail. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 137 Mon Jan 18, 1993 CBARRON at 02:16 EST Doyle, Joey an M68000/68881 improvement is usually in the 10-20% range. Not earth shattering. An 68030/68882 combo makes it about 3x faster at same cpu speed with convector, (I don't have figures for pheonix but both are math intensive.) That is useful. John@;exicor confirms this speed up 4x cpu is 11x faster. 0030/882 version versus software/68000 version. The 68882 is more expensive than the 68881 and I do not see a massive improvement to be gained using it in 'peripheral' mode. Best bet is get an 030 upgrade at the same time. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 138 Mon Jan 18, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 19:51 EST John, Great program, great manual! I liked the demo but getting the real version in my hands is a real thrill. There are so many short cuts! Nothing like a good manual to make even a complex piece of software incredibly managable. I have to learn to use Cybersculpt before I can create anything original but I am truly looking forward getting to it and using Phoenix on the Falcon I'll be getting. It'd be nice if you could keep us posted on the Falcon overscan thingy. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 139 Tue Jan 19, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 00:43 EST CBARRON, I was judging by DynaCADD which shows a huge improvement. I don't remember what the numbers where but it was at least double. I seem to remember a 45 second regeneration taking 12 or so seconds after installing the 68881 in the Mega STe. The TT regenerates stuff in 11 seconds that takes 8 minutes on the Mega STE. I remember that time for obvious reasons.:-) I was suggesting the 68882 not for it's ability to run better in Peripheral mode but for the fact you can take it out later and use it in something else like an 030 upgrade. Always be prepared!:-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 140 Thu Jan 21, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 04:28 EST I was starting to get organized to send in all my waranty cards for all the software I got from Lexicor this week. I looked in the About Pheonix box and the serial # listed there is ....0 Is this an error or is my serial number really zero! That's cool. :-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 141 Thu Jan 21, 1993 C.OINES1 [Chazz] at 08:16 EST I'd imagine it's an error. I've got #0 too... I just noticed that Phoenix can stretch a spectrum background to fit... excellent! I've also gotten high-quality results by making my models in only one or two colors, rendering a bunch of SPCs, and bringing them into Crack Art to make PC1s out of them and do those tricks that Crack Art does so well before stitching them together in CyberPaint. Long process, but the results are great! If I find myself with time, I'll put together something showoffish and upload it... ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 142 Thu Jan 21, 1993 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 12:36 EST Lexicor doesn't appear to currently be encoding serial numbers in Phoenix, so all copies will probably have #0. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 143 Fri Jan 22, 1993 R.HACKMAN1 at 11:02 EST To: John Cole @ Lexicor, Hello John, I've just got my Falcon! Lee told me that it was time to contact you to become an official Lexicor developer. I'll pass you some E-Mail later tonight........ 8^) Bye for now, - Rick ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 144 Sat Jan 23, 1993 P.VARN [Paul Varn] at 02:27 EST How do I find the Lexicor library. I could not find Lexicor in the Product index. I can only find you here in the ST RT. -Pv- ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 145 Sat Jan 23, 1993 ATARIAUSTRIA [J.Widi] at 08:08 EST My copy of Phoenix also has serial # 0, so it seems to be a feature, not a bug ;-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 146 Sat Jan 23, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 10:51 EST Paul. The Lexicor library is # 39. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- GEnie ST Page 475 Atari ST RoundTable 1.[!]Atari ST Bulletin Board 2.[!]Atari ST Real-Time Conference 3.[!]Atari ST RT Libraries <--------------(SELECT THIS ONE!) 4.[!]About the RoundTable 5.[!]RoundTable News (930111) 6.[!]Feedback to Sysops 7.[!]GEnieLamp Atari Newsletter (921231) 8.[!]Search Softsource Knowledgebase 9.[!]Darlah's Treat of the Month 10.[!]Darlah's Treat of the Month II 11.[!]Computer & Electronics NewsCenter Enter #,

revious, or elp?3 GEnie Atari ST RT Software Library Library: ALL Libraries 1. Description of this Library 2. Directory of Files 3. Search File Directory 4. Browse through Files 5. Upload a New File 6. Download a File 7. Delete a File You Own 8. Set Software Library <------------------------(SELECT THIS ONE!) 9. Save Current Software Library 10. Instructions for Software Exchange 11. Directory of New Files 12. Join/Ignore Library Category Enter # or

revious?8 GEnie Set Atari ST RT Software Library 1. Genie Help Files 2. Utilities 3. Language/Programming 4. Graphic Animation 5. Graphics & Art 6. Business (Database, Spreadsheet, etc 7. Telecomputing 8. Games 9. Educational 10. Demos 11. Music 12. Adult Library 13. Atari Archives 14. Press Releases 15. Newsletters & Reviews Item #, or for more? 16. OS-9/68000 for the ST 17. Digitized Sounds 18. Desktop Publishing & Clip Art 19. CPU-STR NEWSWIRE 20. Printer Drivers 21. T.O.S. (The Other Stuff) 22. GNU, MINT, POWERDOS, etc. 23. TEST 24. Emulator Support 25. Z-NET 26. FOR SALE/WANTED 27. Hardware Projects 28. Graphic Programs & Utilities 29. Music Programs & Sound Utilities 30. ISD/DMC Publishing Product Support Item #, or for more? 31. Children's Applications 32. Portfolio Support 33. TEST 34. IAAD (P) 35. GEnie Lamp - The Online Magazine 36. TEST 37. DC Beta Test Area (P) 38. Atari Explorer - ST Format 39. Lexicor Graphics Library <---------- -----------(SELECT THIS ONE) 40. Extraction Utilities (ARC,LZH,etc.) 41. DynaCADD Product Support 42. TEST (P) 43. TEST AREA - DMC PUBLISHING (P) 44. Sysop's Private Library (P) 45. CodeHead's Beta Test Library (P) Item #, or for more?39 GEnie Atari ST RT Software Library Library: Lexicor Graphics Library 1. Description of this Library 2. Directory of Files 3. Search File Directory 4. Browse through Files <-----------------(SELECT THIS ONE) 5. Upload a New File 6. Download a File 7. Delete a File You Own 8. Set Software Library 9. Save Current Software Library 10. Instructions for Software Exchange 11. Directory of New Files 12. Join/Ignore Library Category Enter # or

revious?4 Start browse backwards from what file number or for ALL? Library: 39 - Lexicor Graphics Library ********************************* Number: 27395 Name: AUDWORK.ZIP Address: E.WELLS Date: 930120 Approximate # of bytes: 48640 Number of Accesses: 13 Library: 39 Description: This is a project I've been working on for some time. It is a Chronos ANM file of a movie theatre. It shows many of the details of flat and scope presentations as well as the speaker configuration for a THX (Thomlinson Holman Crossover) sound system. It renders to over 700 frames and has many colors (works best in TT low or better yet if you have an extended graphics card). This will probably only be of interest to Chronos users... ----- Use latest version of ST ZIP to extract. SYSOP NOTE: Unable to verify operation of this file. Keywords: Chronos,Cybersculpt,TT,Lexicor,ANM,animation,Keyframe --------------------------------- File: AUDWORK.ZIP is a BINARY File. ============================= Hope this helps. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 147 Sat Jan 23, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 11:40 EST Anyone out there with Phoenix Object render care to share some of your latest creations with us. We are looking for RD1 plus the SPC or GIF files. Please upload them to the Lexicor Library #39. Thanks. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 148 Sat Jan 23, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 16:20 EST Ringo, >Share your latest creations with us. I'm still too new at this. I'm still in the pre walking stage. ;-) As soon as I do something I think is worth u/l I will. REALM's Viking and Cart are so impressive I don't think I'll u/l the bottle I made. :-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 149 Sat Jan 23, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 16:39 EST Ringo, I've got some new stuff I'll upload later this week. Nothing fancy but probable worth the download time. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 150 Sat Jan 23, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 16:45 EST See Flat, Don't let me stop you! Everything is cool in it's own way!:-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 151 Sat Jan 23, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 20:57 EST See Flat/John Please upload them, the bottle etc. We would like to see them, thanks! Joey. Thanks for letting me know about your future uploading. I will download them ASP.. Later Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 152 Sun Jan 24, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 03:43 EST Ringo, it's too crumy. Believe me. I'm still only doing tests. Dont' forget I got 4 programs from Lexicor less than a week ago. I'm just learning the language and I do have a lot to learn. As soon as I do my first decent thing I'll be happy too u/l. :-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 153 Sun Jan 24, 1993 AEO.3 [Lyre] at 14:52 EST See Flat, Believe it or not, your bottle is an excellent idea. Although it might not be the huge, intricate item that others may be producing, it is a valid contribution. I say this because it does not always help to have large intricate projects when you are trying to get a new user familiar with the software. Some simpler items often times help to show new users what other people who are also relatively new to 3D animation are producing. So by all means, upload that bottle! Signed, 3D Neophyte, Lyre 2:14 pm, January 24, 1993 ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 154 Mon Jan 25, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 04:11 EST Ringo, Lyre, Realm, Ok....you asked for it. I've u/l my "bottle" It's file 27467.....dont' expect very much. Ringo, I'd like your opinion as to the problem with the shadow. I was going to figure this out later with more tests but maybe you'll know. The shadow seems to be from the light source but it's not natural as it's not connected with the bottle. I did not keep the RD1 file. I was only fooling around after all. :-) John ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 155 Mon Jan 25, 1993 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 13:17 EST There are a couple possibilities for your bottle shadow problem. It appears as though the bottle is "floating" above the table. This may or may not actually be the case and I can't say without the RD1. You should check that first. It never hurts to push the bottle "into" the table a little bit to make sure you have good solid contact. The other possibility, and the more likely, is that its due to a slight perspective problem in Phoenix. Without trying to be overly technical, long thin faces with heavy perspective along their length (ie going into/outof the screen) have a problem where their depth in the midpoint isn't figured quite right. This is a common problem in every consumer level renderer I've seen, and will be fixed in the next version. There are a few ways around it. 1) just push the bottle further into the table until the shadow looks right. 2) Reducing the perspective will reduce the floating effect. 3) Splitting the table faces so that each face covers a smaller area. When you split the faces in Cyber Sculpt or Cyber Color Split them so that all three edges stay approximately the same length, ie don't make long thin faces. A combination of the three will help/eliminate the problem. BTW if you split the faces make sure you load the object into Phoenix with ADD FACES off or Phoenix will just glue them back together again. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 156 Mon Jan 25, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 20:02 EST Ringo, I just realized.....the bottle is not sitting on the table properly !!!!!!!!!!! It's Floating. Hence shadow thingy. (this post might suffer Alladin lag syndrome) I've been working on the bottle to make it nicer. Remodeled the neck so it would be hollow. I had'nt realized when I first modeled that I had caped it. When I did a verticle redraw I noticed how unatural the top looked.....I'm learning. ---------------------------- I wrote the above at around 2:30p.m., I worked on my bottle for about two hours and after doing a few sample renderings I decided I was quite pleased. (Compared to my first attempt.) The bottle is now more transparent, and the top and neck much nicer. So...I decide I'll render and then u/l so whoever is curious can see what kind of progress can be done in one day. (Novice style) Well, I 've come back home, it's 7:30 p.m. and Rendering was only on SCAN LINE 93 ! I can't live without my computer for this long so I aborted. If someone out there has a faster system and could render this for me I'd be grateful. I'll u/l the RD1 if anyone can help. John ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 157 Mon Jan 25, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 20:31 EST How embarassing.....on my previous logon the top file in the new files list was......1stbotle... John S., Thanks John. I'll check all those tips out. Since I hadn't kept the Rd1 originaly, and after your statement, I am no longer sure the bottle was floating, it might be one of the other problems. I never checked the shadow on my latest attempt. I know the bottle is sitting right on the table, but I aborted before getting to the shadowed area. As for splitting faces. I dont' know how to do that yet and will try top do it tonight. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 158 Tue Jan 26, 1993 LEXICOR [Lee] at 00:03 EST searial number -0- the first 22 copies and the updates have a zero number to identify them as the first special release. General dist of the software will have searial unmbers. Lee ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 159 Tue Jan 26, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 01:38 EST See Flat, about time for that Falcon with a 68882 isn't it?:-) If your RD1 isn't to large you can send to me and I'll render it. Just give me a resolution and format! Ringo, I've got a problem with my RD1.... I was going to work on it a little more tonight and I realized I'm using the skeleton out of the Human design disk... arghh. All I can upload is a GIF file. Would 640x480x256 be OK or do you want something else? I can wipe the skeleton out and upload whats left also. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 160 Tue Jan 26, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 08:17 EST Joey. The GIF file is fine. Thanks. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 161 Tue Jan 26, 1993 ATARIAUSTRIA [J.Widi] at 18:22 EST Lee, so my copy of Phoenix is going to be a precious collector's item! I'm going to put it into the vault right now :-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 162 Tue Jan 26, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 20:00 EST Lee, I'm sure we're all happy to be of the first 22! Re: Bottle project.....it almost seems that's what it's become. I realized last night that I'd be out of the house until suppertime today. I figued ...this is the best time to try and render my new transparent bottle. So I set it to 24 bit Targa (Figured I might as go all the way and then take a look with Photochrome3. Well I started the RENDER at around 3:00 a.m. and when I got home at 5:30 p.m. it wasn't done. It ended around 7:00 p.m. I looks really much better than "1stbotle". The neck is very nice with a flange on top and it is a proper hollow neck. I have embeded the bottle in the table to try and correct the shadow but it's still a bit off. Looks like I'm going to have to play with perspective. Since it took 16 hours to render, I'd still be curious to know if anyone could test this Rd1 file on a faster machine. It would be interesting for us users who don't! Let me know. I will be putting "bottle project" away for now. I have a lot of work this week, and then it's going to be back to studying CyberSculp, and Chronos. John p.s. and of course if anyone would like to see the difference between 1stbotle, and 2ndbotle, let me know. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 163 Tue Jan 26, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 21:28 EST REALM, Thanks fot the offer. I will u/l the RD1 file. You don't have to render it if you don't want too since I've already seen it. Then, if you are curious to see how much faster your TT runs than my old 1040 STfm TOS 1.00 go ahead...;-) By the way I didn't mention in my other post that before doing the PHONG/SHADOWS in TGA I rendered in GOURAD. That only took about ten minutes. And yes the Falcon with 68882 is a sure thing at this point. I am seriously, (actually It's only money related) considering getting Jim Allens' Turbo 030. So far I like working in 3d but I'll have to step up productivity if I want make this as profitable as my CyberPaint animations. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 164 Tue Jan 26, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 23:29 EST J. Brenner. Please upload the RD1 we will give it a run. What resolution whas your TGA file? Resolutions and color16/24bit format affects the rendering time. TGA can be 16bit or 24bit format. If you do upload the RD1 we will take look and post the findings. Thanks. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 165 Wed Jan 27, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 00:15 EST See Flat, With an 8Meg TT I've hit maybe 2 hours at the most. I usually run out of memory before time.:-) I'm uploading a GIF file tonight at 640x480x256, I'll also render a SPC file for our TOS 1.00 ST friends.:-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 166 Wed Jan 27, 1993 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 01:29 EST John B: If you implement the suggestions I gave you last night in the RTC you should be able to reduce that rendering time to 4 or 5 hours. The shadows are killing you the way the scene is set up now. As far as testing things Phoenix has an option for rendering only a portion of an image. You'd still have to go through the entire Shadow pre-processing, but this is very helpful for testing things. See the Rendering chapter of the manual for details. Ringo: I assume John rendered the image at 320x200 as I think thats all Photochrome supports. Obviously higher resolutions will take longer as the rendering is pixel based. The number of colors however has very little effect though. Targas are slower than spectrums due to the overhead of writeing the file to disk. His example image probably took 20 seconds longer because he rendered it as true color instead of Spectrum. Rendering to targas is faster though than creating GIF's. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 167 Wed Jan 27, 1993 ATARIAUSTRIA [J.Widi] at 16:14 EST A question concerning image mapping: is it possible to define a color of the image as 'transparent', so that the original object color shines through? For instance when I only want to add a symbol or decoration to a spaceship's wing without changing the base color. -Johannes ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 168 Thu Jan 28, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 00:00 EST John, I was going to suggest in texture mapping you ignore the background color. That way you could paste on things like Johannes wants to do. I uploaded the Skeleton late last night. Soon as I get some more memory I'll try one with Shadows.:-) I disabled everything and uses NONE on the view but it barely made it throught he first shadow process. The skeleton is a killer in the shadow process. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 169 Thu Jan 28, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 00:04 EST Ringo, I u/l the Rd1. The TGA file, plus the converted PCS. I rendered in 24 Bit so Photochrome would read it. It doesn't support 16 bit. The screen rez is 200*300. After you left RTC monday John cleared up a few things for me. I think this rendering time will be drasticly brought down once I start using Phoenix properly. I'm doing a lot of silly things like the bottle is actually Marble Texture. I liked that because it made it look like it was a painting. The RD1 is file 2NBTLERD1.LZH # 27476 PCS 2NDBTL_A.LZH # 24477 TGA 2NDBTL_B.LZH # 24478 REALM Joey, The SPC is welcomed and appretiated. ;-) John St., I'm sure things will be speed up as soon as I start using Phoenix properly. I have used the partial screen render option. It's a nice feature if you want to see what the texture will look like on line 175...:-) I have put the bottle aside but I have great plans for it. I'll let everyone see it again when it looks like what I'm imagining it to be. All, Your help, advice and encouragement is appretiated. Thanks, John ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 170 Thu Jan 28, 1993 M.POCHE [Mick] at 00:19 EST I have found that when rendering an image that I want to view/convert with PhotoChrome, Targa is probably the best route to go since PhotoChrome can handle them as is, and they render faster than GIF. Not to mention the increase in colors. PhotoChrome is really excellent for getting a taste of what Phoenix will be able to do on the Falcon. Only a taste, but makes the mouth water anyway. - Mick Hope this doesn't suffer too much Aladdin lag. I wrote it yesterday. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 171 Thu Jan 28, 1993 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 21:13 EST No Johannes, thats not currently possible. It is definitely something I'd like to add. A difficult work around would be to seprate off the particular faces which will contain the logo as a seprate object. You could then make the background of the logo image the same color as the original faces. This won't work for all situations, but... John ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 172 Fri Jan 29, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 15:13 EST Joey. Excellent Skeleton image I really love. Question is the skeleton representing someone that died waiting for a Falcon? Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 173 Fri Jan 29, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 19:25 EST Thats too funny Ringo!!:-) No, I didn't think of that way, it was more of "I bought this thing and never used it anywhere".:-) I'll upload the RD1 minus the skeleton later tonight. I have to delete it since it's commercial. The Umbrella and Straw are fairly detailed but you can't really see that clear in the picture. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 174 Sat Jan 30, 1993 M.POCHE [Mick] at 03:26 EST Joey - I d/loaded the Skeleton Spectrum pic too. Cool! I have noticed though that it is rather dark, as was the Cave picture. Is this just my monitor, or are they rendered that way? Just curious... - Mick ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 175 Sat Jan 30, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 04:59 EST Mick, It's dark on purpose.:-) Caves are rather dark by nature so thats just the way it came out. The skeleton looks like he belongs in a dungeon so I darkened it up. Originally he looked like he was on a patio but I kind of liked the spotlight effect in the dark. I can do something lighter if you want me too.:-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 176 Sat Jan 30, 1993 M.POCHE [Mick] at 05:47 EST Don't bother changing for my benefeit. It looks great the way it is. I also have the Skeleton object on one of these Antic/STart disks, and have tried fooling around with it, but it is just too complex to try and work with. Maybe I'm not patient enough, or maybe I need a faster computer, or both! Well, at least I can cure one of those problems with cash, the other, maybe age will take care of it. :^} - Mick P.S. Have you checked out the P-40 fighter object in the library? Excellent airplane model! ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 177 Sat Jan 30, 1993 ATARIAUSTRIA [J.Widi] at 13:19 EST John C. Phoenix currently only supports the Falcon's 15 bit true color mode. Will You support the 16 bit mode as well ? -Johannes ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 178 Sat Jan 30, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 18:35 EST Mick, The P40 is cool! I've been meaning to render it but haven't had time yet. The skeletons not to bad if you position it inside Phoenix. You can set the rotation at the joints and bend the legs just how you want. Does take a while but no where near as bad as CyberSculpt. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 179 Sat Jan 30, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 22:36 EST The Mid-Cities open house was a "hit". Lots of people attended buying all types of software. I was showing the Lexicor Software line and Phoenix attracted lots of attention! The store is going to order more copies. The Codeheads were there and a FALCON030 was demo for all. I had a chance to demo a few Phoenix render images on it. Love the Falcon030 buy one!! Joey, thanks for the Skeleton looks very nice on the Falcon030. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 180 Sun Jan 31, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 01:56 EST Ringo, No problem! ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 181 Sun Jan 31, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 02:54 EST First the CodeHeads were great for the "Open house". It was just a wonderful support d0ne by then. The Falcon-030 was/is v ery nice!! Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 182 Sun Jan 31, 1993 J.STANFORD2 [John@Lexicor] at 11:30 EST Sorry Johannes, I won't be supporting the 16 bit (5 red, 6 green, 5 blue) Falcon format for several reasons. For one it would be quite an imposeing task within Phoenix to deal with variable bits of color. Second there is no standard image file format I know of which supports 16 bit color. The TGA 16 bit format uses the extra bit as an overlay bit, not an extra green bit. (Phoenix also uses this as an overlay bit if creating a PDC depth file.) If a Genlock is connected and the overlay mode is on any pixels which used that 6th green would become transparent. Finally, Atari USA in its Falcon documentation (paraphrased from memory) "It is strongly suggested that the overlay bit not be used for graphics data". The actual image display in Phoenix is solely intended as a preview. I'm not sure that displaying a 24bit image in 16bit would really give any more accurate a representation than 15 bit would. It would of course be possible for someone to create an image viewer which used 24bit targa files to determine and set the 6th green bit. However I think you'll like some of the other things we will be doing with Phoenix though. ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 183 Sun Jan 31, 1993 M.POCHE [Mick] at 13:17 EST Joey - That's one of the best features of the Phoenix 'Positioning' menu. Being able to rotate an object from any point makes positioning things much easier! Hopefully any modeling software Lexicor comes up with will have this feature too. - Mick ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 184 Sun Jan 31, 1993 N.FRAGA at 16:34 EST What are Animation Toolkit, Utilities, and the Genesis programs? Are they available? I'd like to know what *I* could use them for, that's all! Thanks ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 185 Sun Jan 31, 1993 C.OATES2 [Chris] at 22:37 EST I assume your desire to see our work in Phoenix is still valid, so I'll upload what I've been playing with on my demo copy. I just got the release version a few days ago, so I could hopefully have something soon. Along with the RD1 file, what image formats do you want? I normally do 640x480 or 800x600 GIF files... WHat do you prefer? -Chris ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 186 Mon Feb 01, 1993 ATARIAUSTRIA [J.Widi] at 04:51 EST John C.: I stumbled across a minor bug in Phoenix today: the 'wood grain solid texturing' dialog shows two color bars, one for the base color and one for the grain color. If You click on the 'grain color' bar You can change the grain color. Both the bar in the 'color palette' dialog and the still visible 'grain color' bar change according to how You move the sliders, giving an accurate preview of color pairs. Strange things happen when You click on the 'base color' slider. The 'color palette' dialog pops up, in the background the 'base' and 'grain' color bars are still visible but both now show the 'base' color. When You change the base color with the sliders the 'base' bar is unchanged (=shows the old base color) while the 'grain' bar shows the new base color. Only after You leave the 'palette' dialog the correct colors are displayed. This makes color matching a bit tedious. -Johannes ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 187 Mon Feb 01, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 15:19 EST Chris. 640X480 GIF is fine. Ringo ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 188 Mon Feb 01, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 20:29 EST J.Widi, I think thats a feature so you can see the color your editing. If not that sounds like a good excuse.:-) ------------ Category 25, Topic 20 Message 189 Wed Feb 03, 1993 LEXICOR [Lee] at 04:51 EST As you can see I am back on line. but it will be a few days befor We get every thing put away and back up to normal speed. Lee ------------