Space Digest Sat, 7 Aug 93 Volume 16 : Issue 994 Today's Topics: 11 planets (2 msgs) 2nd CFV: sci.astro.planetarium Ghost Wheels & HenrySpancer_Zoo (2 msgs) Mars Observer's First Photo (5 msgs) Mars Observer Update - 08/02/93 Nitrogen Ice Discovered on Pluto Re-using Old ICBMs as Space Launchers Refit/Rebuild old Rockets! Low Tech? Standardize! (2 msgs) Support the Shuttle The Inquisition (The Usenet edition) Titan IV failure. Info? Welcome to the Space Digest!! Please send your messages to "space@isu.isunet.edu", and (un)subscription requests of the form "Subscribe Space " to one of these addresses: listserv@uga (BITNET), rice::boyle (SPAN/NSInet), utadnx::utspan::rice::boyle (THENET), or space-REQUEST@isu.isunet.edu (Internet). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Aug 93 09:06:17 EDT From: SABELD@WMAVM7.VNET.IBM.COM Subject: 11 planets Is it even possible that the asteriod belt between mars and jupiter could have been an eleventh planet? Given the extent of the belt, would it not take a **colossal** force to destroy such a planet? Would such an destructive force have repercussions upon the other planets? just curious. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 13:17:29 GMT From: fred j mccall 575-3539 Subject: 11 planets Newsgroups: sci.space In <1993Aug05.151626.20677@microsoft.com> t-alanj@microsoft.com (Alan Jenn) writes: >Has anyone considered the notion that perhaps >the asteroid belt that lies between Mars and Jupiter >might actually be the remains of the so called eleventh >planet of which "holy" scriptures refer? But then, which one is the TENTH planet? Seriously, the idea that the asteroid belt was a 'destroyed planet' has been considered and generally rejected due to scientific evidence. It is thought much more likely that it is a planet that never formed at all due to the gravitational influence of Jupiter next door (or such was the case many moons ago when I was interested enough to read up on this sort of thing). [There's not enough mass in the Belt to make a reasonable planet, the composition seems wrong, and the orbits do not support the idea that at one time it was all one object, among other objections.] -- "Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 1993 09:43:38 -0400 From: Ron Asbestos Dippold Subject: 2nd CFV: sci.astro.planetarium Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.astro,sci.space,sci.space.shuttle,sci.physics CALL FOR VOTES (2nd of 3) Creation of the unmoderated group sci.astro.planetarium Newsgroups line: sci.astro.planetarium Discussion of planetariums. Votes must be recieved by: Thursday, Aug 26, 1993 11:59:59 GMT This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. For voting questions only, contact rdippold@qualcomm.com. For questions about the proposed group, contact Davin Flateau . This CFV will also be posted to the "Planetarian Electronic Newsletter" mailing list by Davin Flateau. STANDARD VOTING INFO You should send MAIL (posts to a group are invalid) to voting@qualcomm.com (just replying by MAIL to this message should work). Your mail message should contain one and only one of the following statements: I vote YES on sci.astro.planetarium or I vote NO on sci.astro.planetarium You may add a comment, but anything other than a definite statement involving the group name and "yes", "no", "for", or "against" on a single line may be rejected by the automatic vote counting program. If you later change your mind you may also use send in an "abstain" vote in the same manner, using "abstain" in place of "yes" or "no". Additional CFVs will include mass acks. Standard Guidelines for voting apply - one vote per person (not per account). 100 more YES votes than NO votes and 2/3 of all votes being YES are the requirements for group creation. Charter ------- sci.astro.planetarium will be a newsgroup that provides a common forum for patrons of planetaria, planetarium professionals, planetarium audio-visual developers, and anyone interested in astronomy education to come and exchange their ideas, news, and calendar events. Major topics of discussion that this newsgroup will cover include: * Planetarium presentation techniques and show production discussions by planetarium professionals. * Technical discussions relating to the production of planetarium presentations (Digistar programming, A/V equipment maintenance, automation system discussions, etc.). * News and announcements of upcoming planetaria events from planetaria all over the world (workshop announcements, star-parties, special showings, etc.). * General public discussion about the institution of planetaria, including items of historical interest, and new planetaria being opened. * Upcoming astronomical, space events and alerts concerning planetarium professionals, and the general public. * Astronomical education topics and general discussion by both planetarium professionals, developers and the general public. * Educate others in topics of astronomy and space exploration. Rationale --------- For the last 70 years, planetaria have been the world's source for astronomical education, and public astronomy information. Many educational institutions such as high schools and universities have planetaria on campus for just this purpose. With most universities connected to the internet, and many more science centers and museums connecting every day, sci.astro.planetarium will provide a central place for discussion of astronomy education and the special issues concerning planetaria themselves. More and more planetarium enthusiasts and professionals are making use of the great capabilities of the internet - the recently formed "Planetarian Electronic Newsletter" has gained explosive support, and now reaches many people. sci.astro.planetarium will be an essential step in connecting these people and institutions, and help astronomy education greatly. Summary ------- sci.astro.planetarium will be an important step in linking everyone interested in planetaria together. Professionals can exchange technical information, production ideas, news, events, techniques, and get feedback from people interested in astronomy. Everyone interested in astronomy can also get up-to-date information about local public shows, astronomical events, organized astronomical gatherings, and more. The huge success of the Planetarian Electronic Newsletter has shown these topics to be of great interest to many people (in fact, the Newsletter has so many subscribers and is so large in content, it is moving to regional distribution). To accomplish all of these goals with thousands of planetaria professionals all over the globe, the creation of sci.astro.planetarium is essential. Bounce List - as of 08/4/93 you should have recieved a mail ACK on your vote. These are the mail acks for counted votes which have bounced for one reason or another. gspagna@copley.rmc.edu rhill@silas.lpl.arizona.edu borgeb@stud.cs.uit.no yamada@ysc.go.jp wolfman@p-cove.UUCP -- Just when we got good at this, we run out of planets. -- Anonymous Voyager scientist ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 93 09:50:05 GMT From: "S.H." Subject: Ghost Wheels & HenrySpancer_Zoo Newsgroups: sci.space In article pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering) writes: >sr600uab@sdcc16.ucsd.edu (S.H.) writes: >>Socrates was killed too. >>I still read about him. >I like Socrates. Please keep in mind, though, that Socrates >was not so much killed as given the choice of committing suicide >or leaving the city he loved and admitting to "crimes" he was not >guilty of Thanks. But why Socrates refused to escape when his friend mano wanted to help him? S.H. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 13:11:49 GMT From: fred j mccall 575-3539 Subject: Ghost Wheels & HenrySpancer_Zoo Newsgroups: sci.space In <52936@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> sr600uab@sdcc16.ucsd.edu (S.H.) writes: >In article <2827427880@hoult.actrix.gen.nz> Bruce@hoult.actrix.gen.nz (Bruce Hoult) writes: >> >>Welcome to the kill file. >Really ? >What else are you going to Kill ? >Socrates was killed too. >I still read about him. Speaking of reading, go read the 'Netiquette for Newbies' postings. I'm sure your site has them somewhere and you seem to have a desperate need of them. -- "Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 12:57:03 GMT From: "Richard L. Rush" Subject: Mars Observer's First Photo Newsgroups: sci.space In article <23srntINNond@gap.caltech.edu>, carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick) wrote: > > In article , henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes: > =In article DPierce@world.std.com (Richard D Pierce) writes: > =>> The B & W photograph is available by calling NASA's > =>>Broadcast and Imaging Branch ... > => > =>And, of course, it's available by FTP, right? > =It won't be available for FTP until somebody gets a copy and scans it in. > The abvove demonstrates a profound ignorance of NASA. For some missions, at > least, the photos are available via FTP long before they're available as > hard-copy. FTP site address? Anyone? -Rich Rush ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 13:48:00 GMT From: Tim Harincar Subject: Mars Observer's First Photo Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary In article , rodb@slugo.corp.sgi.com (Rod Beckwith) writes... > >In article DPierce@world.std.com (Richard D >Pierce) writes: >>> The B & W photograph is available by calling NASA's >>>Broadcast and Imaging Branch ... >> >>And, of course, it's available by FTP, right? >=========================================================================== >====== >(Henry Spencer)wrote: > >>>That's either sarcasm or naivete; no way to tell which. :-) > >>>It won't be available for FTP until somebody gets a copy and scans it >in. >>>NASA's PR people are still in the dark ages when it comes to electronic >>>availability of such things. >=========================================================================== >===== > >Henry, > >The images are coming in & converted to a viewable format, unless Polariod >technology has come a long way 8->......zero's & ones could be made readily >available for FTP format. Distributing things in a soft manner is so much >quicker, nah that would make to much sense, besides, the Postal service >must love their archaic ways. > > >I tend to agree that NASA is a BIT slow on getting things out. Efficiency >is so unbureaucratic! Just what is the format of images when they're sent down? Is it a custom graphics/compression routine designed for spacecraft, or a dirivative of a more common format? I don't have my notes here, but isn't Clementine using a flavor of JPEG and transmitting uncoded? I would think those images could get dumped almost directly into an ftp site... -- tim harincar soc1070@vx.cis.umn.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 14:14:52 GMT From: jsmill01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu Subject: Mars Observer's First Photo Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary In article , henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes: > In article DPierce@world.std.com (Richard D Pierce) writes: >>> The B & W photograph is available by calling NASA's >>>Broadcast and Imaging Branch ... >> >>And, of course, it's available by FTP, right? > > That's either sarcasm or naivete; no way to tell which. :-) > > It won't be available for FTP until somebody gets a copy and scans it in. > NASA's PR people are still in the dark ages when it comes to electronic > availability of such things. > -- > Altruism is a fine motive, but if you | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology > want results, greed works much better. | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry ============================================================================== Not always true. As I recall, Ron Baalke has on occation provided images for ftp shortly after an announcement. I assume that he scans itimself, which, therefore depends on his free time. But I've gotten a few images while waiting for the mail to arrive. J. Scott Miller, Program Coordinator Rauch Memorial Planetarium University of Louisville jsmill01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu P.S. I do not mean to imply the Ron is one of NASA's PR people, but that he has provided this group with quite a bit of info for someone that is as busy as he seems to be. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 14:22:50 GMT From: "Anthony A. Datri" Subject: Mars Observer's First Photo Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary >The abvove demonstrates a profound ignorance of NASA. For some missions, at >least, the photos are available via FTP long before they're available as >hard-copy. The claim made at Gaspra was that various funding agencies deserved the first crack at images. -- ======================================================================8--< ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 93 15:46:07 GMT From: "S.H." Subject: Mars Observer's First Photo Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.math,sci.astro In article rrush1@darwin.cc.nd.edu (Richard L. Rush) writes: >In article <23srntINNond@gap.caltech.edu>, carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl >J Lydick) wrote: >> >> In article , henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes: >> =In article DPierce@world.std.com (Richard D Pierce) writes: >> =>> The B & W photograph is available by calling NASA's >> =>>Broadcast and Imaging Branch ... >> => >> =>And, of course, it's available by FTP, right? > >> =It won't be available for FTP until somebody gets a copy and scans it in. > >> The abvove demonstrates a profound ignorance of NASA. For some missions, at >> least, the photos are available via FTP long before they're available as >> hard-copy. > > >FTP site address? Anyone? > >-Rich Rush ===================================================================== I see. This whole thing was set up. There was NO such photo! There was only electronic bits! Excuses were used to sneak, informations!!! Setting up things, Making up things, fake_ing up things, All for the same mean: -- To have excuses to access to a FTP site, or to the top research Labs. QMW:[Queen Mary Westfield College/London], U.K.+++, Another trick, a Big one . S.H. ===================================================== Watch out, watch out, watch out.... I have the Photos - B/W !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ===================================================== ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 1993 14:25:46 GMT From: Bruce McLaughlin Subject: Mars Observer Update - 08/02/93 Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary In article <1993Aug6.054519.5262@news.arc.nasa.gov> moses@pan.arc.nasa.gov (julie moses) writes: > >>SM> Question: why does Mars Observer have such an unattractive/unconventional >>SM> name? With some exceptions (Lunar Orbiter - yawn) our probes seem to >>SM> get nice names like Galileo and Viking. What's the story? >> >Mars Observer Mission -- MOM. You can't get much more attractive or >conventional than calling it after everyone's mother! B-) And remember that MO is the first (and unfortunately possibly last) of the proposed Planetary Observer Program. We know that space has reached full acceptance when it becomes a MOM and POP endeavor. --bruce ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 1993 16:02 UT From: Ron Baalke Subject: Nitrogen Ice Discovered on Pluto Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary Paula Cleggett-Haleim Headquarters, Washington, D.C. August 6, 1993 (Phone: 202/358-0883) Diane Farrar Ames Research Center, Mountain View, Calif. (Phone: 415/604-3934) RELEASE: 93-142 NITROGEN ICE DISCOVERED ON PLUTO The distant planet Pluto is covered with surface ices that are 98 percent nitrogen, University of Hawaii, NASA and other scientists say. With such abundant nitrogen surface ice, Pluto's thin atmosphere must be primarily gaseous nitrogen, they conclude. This is the first clear detection of nitrogen on Pluto and the first clear indication that the atmosphere is mostly nitrogen gas rather than methane, as previously believed. Carbon monoxide also was detected for the first time. "Rather than methane as previously thought, it appears that frozen nitrogen dominates the surface," said Dr. Ted Roush. Roush, employed by San Francisco State University, works at NASA's Ames Research Center, Mountain View, Calif. Methane was detected on Pluto's surface in 1976. Extremely small amounts of methane are easy to detect because it strongly absorbs specific wavelenths of sunlight. "The small amounts (1.5 percent) of methane ice are 'dissolved,' or mixed at a molecular level, in the frozen nitrogen," Roush said. The abundant nitrogen recently found on Pluto is a poor absorber of sunlight and produces very weak features in the light reflected from the planet, so it previously had not been identified. The observations were made in Hawaii with a new instrument on the United Kingdom Infrared Telescope in May 1992. The results are published in the current issue of Science magazine, along with similar observations of Neptune's moon, Triton. Pluto resembles Triton in size and in surface and atmospheric composition. Both have nitrogen, methane and carbon monoxide ices on their surface. Because their surfaces are made of similar materials, scientists think Pluto and Triton may have formed in a similar location in the solar nebula, Roush said. Pluto, almost 3 billion miles from Earth, is the only planet not yet explored by a spacecraft. Pluto is unusual in several respects. Although classified as a planet, it is smaller than Earth's moon. Pluto's only moon, Charon, is at least half as big as the planet itself. It also is the only planet in the solar system with an orbit highly inclined out of the plane of the solar system. The authors, with Roush, include first author Dr. Tobias Owen, University of Hawaii; Dr. Dale Cruikshank of Ames; and Drs. J. L. Elliot and L. A. Young, Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Additional authors are C. de Bergh, Observatoire de Paris-Meudon, France; B. Schmitt, St. Martin d'Heres, France; T. R. Geballe, Joint Astronomy Center, Hilo, Hawaii; R. H. Brown, Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena; and M. J. Bartholomew, Ames. - end - ___ _____ ___ /_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Ron Baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov | | | | __ \ /| | | | Jet Propulsion Lab | ___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ M/S 525-3684 Telos | When given a choice between /___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | two exciting things, choose |_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | the one you haven't tried. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 1993 08:14:43 -0500 From: "Hoffman, Eric J." Subject: Re-using Old ICBMs as Space Launchers Newsgroups: sci.space In July 1991 the following proposition was debated before the AIAA Space Transportation Technical Committee: "U.S. should convert surplus ICBMs into lightsat launchers." I took the pro side, an Orbital Sciences VP took the con. The Technical Committee consists mostly of top level management and technical people from all the U.S. (and some foreign) rocket builders. You would expect such a group to favor destroying all surplus missiles, so they can sell fresh new hardware to Uncle Sam. Instead, the Committee voted, following the debate, in favor of conversion, 19 to 12. I made all the usual arguments: -- that there is a huge, unsatisfied demand for low-cost launches for scientific payloads -- that the U.S. is losing lightsat launches to foreign secondary launch providers -- that increased launch capability would help the _entire_ lightsat industry grow, including current small ELV providers like OSC -- increased flight opportunities would help retain space scientists and engineers who are now being lost to other fields. I pointed out how conversion could easily be made compliant with the INF and START Treaties (the AIAA Space Systems Technical Committee, in 1988, prepared a Position Paper outlining a "cheat-proof" protocol.) The technical possibilities of some of the ICBM conversion options were presented (the 450 Minuteman-2s due to be retired by 1997 look especially attractive). But I think the clinching argument was this: The U.S. in 1986 was heavily dependent on a single launch provider-- the Shuttle. The Challenger accident led to a 3-year hiatus in launch activity. We should not allow a similar situation to develop for lightsat launchers. The fact is that with the last Scout launch, the only U.S. lightsat launcher actually flying is Pegasus. I have tremendous admiration for OSC's accomplishments with this innovative vehicle, and in fact served on the design review board for it. But it is _way_ behind its originally projected flight rate, and its reliability record (defined in this business as putting the payload in the _intended_ orbit, not just in orbit) has been spotty, as you would expect for a totally new vehicle. The principal spokesman for conversion is UCLA Prof. Paul Coleman, who is also president of Universities Space Research Associates. He will participate in a panel discussion on 17 Sept at the SpaceTalk '93 Conference in Logan, Utah, "How to Get to Space: the Role and Use of Surplus Strategic Assets." NASA Administrator Dan Goldin has also issued a challenge to USRA, which Coleman has accepted, to do three orbital missions for $24M. USRA has arranged with the Air Force to use converted ICBMs as the ELVs. ......................................................................... : Eric J. Hoffman Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Lab : : Laurel, Maryland : : : : ejhof@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu (301) 953-5186 : :.......................................................................: ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1993 17:17:10 GMT From: "Robert B. Love " Subject: Refit/Rebuild old Rockets! Low Tech? Standardize! Newsgroups: sci.space In article henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes: > And, surprise surprise, is using them as launchers. MM has a contract > to refit some of the old Titans as launchers -- Clementine is going up > on one, for example -- and will probably get contracts to do the rest. Another reason that commercial launches turned down the TII refurb was that there is only a launch pad on the West coast. Most commercial companies desire an East coast launch > commercial launch industry. You really don't want to get a bunch of > cheap launches in the near-term if it means bankrupting your long-term > launch suppliers with subsidized competition, and it's tricky to work > out a way of using those launchers for non-government payloads that > doesn't take business away from the commercial launch suppliers. Too true, this also killed MMAG's attempts at becoming a commercial launcher with Titan III's. They have about $8 Billion in launch contracts with the USAF for TIV's so when the USAF sees a satellite launched for commercial rates they wonder should we be getting lower launch costs? MMAG didn't want to do anything to risk its cash cow. Military and commercial launches don't have identical requirments but they are similiar enough. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Love rlove@raptor.rmnug.org (NeXT Mail OK) BIX: rlove ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1993 17:25:13 GMT From: "Robert B. Love " Subject: Refit/Rebuild old Rockets! Low Tech? Standardize! Newsgroups: sci.space In article John_Fleming@sat.mot.com (John Fleming) writes: > By the way, did you ever try to price one of those wheat-field Titans? > A company I worked for did once. The price was absurd. There was > absolutely no cost savings. In fact, they were more expensive than a > new LV. Like I said in one of my earlier posts, there is no launch pad suitable for your launch requirements. You not only had to buy the rocket but support the cost of a pad. I worked offering a Titan II to GE at JSC for "LifeSat" and it was darn cheap < $20 Million. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Love rlove@raptor.rmnug.org (NeXT Mail OK) BIX: rlove ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 93 09:25:48 EDT From: JEFF MILLNER Subject: Support the Shuttle Newsgroups: sci.space Please quit bashing the Shuttle. And for Pete's sake, stop singing the praises of Russian equipment. If I hear one more comment about how we should scrap our stuff and buy from them.....Anyway, do a little comparison before you do. We have only had one true failure (and even that is too many). The Russians have had several missions that tried to dock with whatever space station they had up at the time, and for one reason or another, failed to do so. Total mission failures (yes, the Russians have had failures). What about the ones we never heard about? Communism was very good at hiding things, but NASA is very open about what is happening, which make it a great target for armchair astronauts to bash. The Russians, for all of their expertise at putting up large things in space, are EXTREMELY limited when it comes to bringing anything back. They have small recovery capsules, and their astronauts come back with a small bag of samples. Big deal. The Shuttle, on the other hand, routinely brings up large items such as spacelabs and returns. In fact, I the STS-71 mission that will dock with MIR is going to bring back a large Russian gyroscope that FAILED in orbit. They haven't been able to bring it back to diagnose it, so they called on us. By the way, they do beat us in on-orbit stay time. Other than that, they aren't really doing that much up there. I will take quality over quantity anytime. Just wait until our Space Station gets up there, politics notwithstanding. These opinions are my own, but feel free to share them. millnerj@montageski.ksc.nasa.gov sorry no cute quote, I am a college graduate... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 23:05:07 +1200 (NZST) From: Bruce Hoult Subject: The Inquisition (The Usenet edition) Newsgroups: sci.space pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering) writes: > ward@agamit.wisdom.weizmann.ac.il (Ward Paul) writes: > > >In article <52926@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> hshen@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (S.H.) writes: > >> > >>What is your backgroud? > >>Who do you speak for ? > >> > >>What do you do besides writing posters ? > > >Gee, no one told me the inquisition had started again. > > Same here. I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition. NOONE expects the Spanish Inquisition!! Our three principal methods are... (I'm sorry. I couldn't resist wasting hundreds if not thousands of dollars...) ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 1993 11:48:55 +0100 From: Mike C Holderness Subject: Titan IV failure. Info? Newsgroups: sci.space In article henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes: > >A rocket running wild under power -- like an SRB cut loose from its core >stage -- can threaten civilians. Vandenberg isn't remote enough to avoid >that possibility. That's why such rockets *have* destruct systems. Isn't is also military policy to blow up anything sensitive, in case the Other Side decide to do a re-make of _Moonraker_? (Who gets to play the Russian who plays Howard Hunt?) (Younger readers -- Moonraker was the Bond film fictionalising the attempt to salvage a sunken Soviet submarine. Older readers -- correct me if my memory's failed me.) Not that I know what the payload was, but like most others I make certain assumptions about unannounced payloads. Mike -- Anyone wants me to have opinions on their behalf, they pay by the word. ------------------------------ End of Space Digest Volume 16 : Issue 994 ------------------------------