Date: Fri, 14 May 93 05:05:25 From: Space Digest maintainer Reply-To: Space-request@isu.isunet.edu Subject: Space Digest V16 #566 To: Space Digest Readers Precedence: bulk Space Digest Fri, 14 May 93 Volume 16 : Issue 566 Today's Topics: Complete coverage (was Re: GPS Launch Dates.) DC-X and publicity... is there any ? Excess Shuttle criticism was Re: Shuttle 0-Defects & Bizarre? DC-X? GPS Launch Great Scientists (Was: U.S. Government and Science and Technolgy Investment) Griffin Speaks Infrared <<<< space observatory. Oops Life on Mars. (5 msgs) looking for PLANET MAPS Neil Armstrong's first words (the real ones) payload return (2 msgs) Philosophy Quest. How Boldly? Space books from Krieger Who is Henry Spencer anyway? (2 msgs) why math Why we like DC-X (was Re: Shuttle 0-Defects & Bizarre? DC-X?) Welcome to the Space Digest!! Please send your messages to "space@isu.isunet.edu", and (un)subscription requests of the form "Subscribe Space " to one of these addresses: listserv@uga (BITNET), rice::boyle (SPAN/NSInet), utadnx::utspan::rice::boyle (THENET), or space-REQUEST@isu.isunet.edu (Internet). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 May 1993 15:56:31 GMT From: "Charles A. Smith" Subject: Complete coverage (was Re: GPS Launch Dates.) Newsgroups: sci.space,rec.aviation.products In the latest issue of Sport Aviation, there is a blurb about GPS satelites. They claim that we should have complete coverage now. They used the *should* because the last satelite was scheduled to be launched while the magazine was in press. -- Cap Smith Assistant Prof. of MIS cap@selway.umt.edu University of Montana ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1993 14:03:37 GMT From: "Allen W. Sherzer" Subject: DC-X and publicity... is there any ? Newsgroups: sci.space In article <251251a36@ofa123.fidonet.org> David.Anderman@ofa123.fidonet.org writes: >A successful flight program will be all the publicity that DC-X will need to >get congressional $. Not entirely true. It will help but it won't be enough by itself. Attention span in politics is very very short. You need to push constantly until you meet your objective. If you stop pushing, support erodes fast. We will need to maintain pressure throughout the development up until the DC-1 flies or a commercial interest takes over. Allen -- +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lady Astor: "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!" | | W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it." | +----------------------34 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1993 16:21:03 GMT From: "Phil G. Fraering" Subject: Excess Shuttle criticism was Re: Shuttle 0-Defects & Bizarre? DC-X? Newsgroups: sci.space khayash@hsc.usc.edu (Ken Hayashida) writes: >I'll tell you one thing, your bagging on shuttle's admitted short-comings >are gonna concern the congressfolk for KSC'ers who are gonna loose their >monopoly on launch sites, and JSC'ers who are gonna lose their monopoly on >manned access to space, and probably others. The California delegation >is probably gonna go for it anyway because we're desparate for any contract! It's about time we stop getting a space program to please the congressmen from JSC and KSC and get one to please the rest of us (and perhaps the people at JSC, for instance, who keep having to redesign space station over and over again to fit what the congressmen from JSC and KSC have forced upon them.) >ken Of course, you're probably not reading this. I am not taking this to alt.flame; if you can't be bothered to follow the directions in news.announce.newusers about _reading_ a group for a while before suddenly posting about how you know everything and everyone else should shut the hell up for your policial expediency, take yourself (and the NASA budget, while you're at it) to rec.humor.tasteless and stay there. -- Phil Fraering |"Number one good faith! You convert, pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|you not tortured by demons!" - anon. Mahen missionary ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 93 10:51:36 From: Bob McGwier Subject: GPS Launch Newsgroups: sci.space Delta launch carrying it was last night, April 12, 1993. I saw the launch this morning on the news. BMc -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Robert W. McGwier | n4hy@ccr-p.ida.org Center for Communications Research | Interests: amateur radio, astronomy,golf Princeton, N.J. 08520 | Asst Scoutmaster Troop 5700, Hightstown ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1993 15:55:31 GMT From: Marc Roussel Subject: Great Scientists (Was: U.S. Government and Science and Technolgy Investment) Newsgroups: sci.space,talk.politics.space,sci.research,misc.education,sci.misc In article <1sm53c$cn1@suntan.eng.usf.edu> mccolm@darwin.math.usf.edu. (Gregory McColm) writes: >2. Continuing in this line, CMFair has suggested that the 20th >century is the Silver Age in science, while the 19th was the Golden >Age: the idea is that we are running on inertia. [...] >The greatest scientists of the 19th century were >Gauss and Darwin, of the 20th, Hilbert and Einstein. Any list of great scientists of the 19th century that doesn't include Michael Faraday is seriously incomplete. He was, perhaps, the greatest scientist of the last century, making lasting contributions to the studies of electromagnetism and physical chemistry almost too numerous to mention. While I recognize that Hilbert was a most important mathematician, I would hesitate to include him in such a list because his direct influence in the broader scientific community is restricted. Whatever one might think of his more recent work (or, for that matter, of his book on chemical bonding), Linus Pauling has been far more influential and has made discoveries of at least equal importance to those of Hilbert in mathematics. He was one of the first people to realize the power of X-ray diffraction as a tool for determining the structures of biological molecules and he was extremely influential in the development of quantum chemistry. If you insist on including a mathematician, how about Turing? In the long run, he will have a far more profound influence on the general course of science than Hilbert, if this isn't true already. His contributions to both computer science and nonlinear dynamics (neither of which really existed when he was working) are both of considerable importance to the development of these disciplines. Perhaps comparing scientists for importance is not terribly useful, but I would be most curious to find out whom my fellow scientists hold in the greatest esteem and why. As my selections above reveal, I am generally far more impressed with generalists than with people who have contributed only to narrowly defined areas. That's why I wouldn't put Hilbert on a list of truly great scientists and include Einstein only with some trepidation. Marc R. Roussel mroussel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca P.S.: I have eliminated some of the less relevant newsgroups from the distribution and redirected followups to sci.misc where this discussion probably most properly belongs. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 93 13:15:17 GMT From: "J. Courtney Ray" Subject: Griffin Speaks Newsgroups: sci.space NASA's Chief Engineer Mike Griffin will be the featured speaker at the AIAA/Baltimore Spring dinner meeting May 26. Dr. Griffin's talk, titled "Access to Space", will address the present costs associated with space transportation and the potential for reducing costs with new system designs The meeting is at the Guest Quarters, BWI Airport. Dinner is $15, less for students or new members. For reservations or more info, call Sy Steinberg at 410-486-5650, or Email ray@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu. J. Courtney Ray Email: ray@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu JHU/APL Phone: 301-953-5064 or 410-792-5064 Laurel, MD 20723 Fax: 301-953-6556 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 1993 23:41:48 GMT From: Carlos Guillermo Niederstrasser Subject: Infrared <<<< space observatory. Oops Newsgroups: sci.space Oops!! In my last post I meant to type Infrared not International, but my fingers got carried away :) Again Please answer via email. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | Carlos G. Niederstrasser | Only two things are infinite, | | Princeton Planetary Society | the universe and human | | | stupidity, and I'm not sure | | | about the former. - Einstein | | carlosn@phoenix.princeton.edu |---------------------------------| | space@phoenix.princeton.edu | Ad Astra per Ardua Nostra | --------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 93 14:43:56 GMT From: Keith Robison Subject: Life on Mars. Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.bio gord@jericho.uucp (Gord Wait S-MOS Systems Vancouver Design Center) writes: >Here is a potentially dumb question: What prevents the martian landers >themselves from "polluting" the martian environment with earth based >critters? Is the long trip in cold radiation bathed space enough to >completely sterilize the landers? I believe that ethylene oxide sterilization was used for the Viking landers. Ethylene oxide is a highly reactive gas which kills just about everything. There is a serious concern that the dormant form of some organisms (such as Bacillus species) is hardy enough to survive the voyage, especially if not directly exposed to space (inside the aeroshell). I believe there is some controversy about NOT sterilizing some future spacecraft in order to save money (after all, it takes some extra effort to make sure the ethylene oxide doesn't kill the ship!). It may have involved the Galileo or Cassini entry probes. On a related note, there are a few serious scientists who propose that life did not originate on Earth, but rather got started from invading microbes. Francis Crick and Fred Hoyle are two who have proposed this (perhaps tongue-in-cheek?) Keith Robison Harvard University Department of Cellular and Developmental Biology Department of Genetics / HHMI robison@biosun.harvard.edu ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 1993 15:29:49 GMT From: Doug Mohney Subject: Life on Mars. Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.bio In article , robison1@husc10.harvard.edu (Keith Robison) writes: >On a related note, there are a few serious scientists who propose that >life did not originate on Earth, but rather got started from invading >microbes. Francis Crick and Fred Hoyle are two who have proposed this >(perhaps tongue-in-cheek?) One of the bigger cop-outs I've seen. You still have to figure out how THAT life got started. Software engineering? That's like military intelligence, isn't it? -- > SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU < -- ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 1993 11:45:19 -0400 From: Pat Subject: Life on Mars. Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.bio I read the NRC report on planetary protection. what's the most interesting point, is that they don't believe earth life could exist on mars, based on viking data, but they want to avoid Earth proteins and DNA from messing up surveys for ancient martian life forms. and besides doug, it looks like these days life is self assembling. complexity and self assembly seems an intrinsic quality of organic chemistry. so it doesn't matter if it seeded in or not it still self assembled. pat ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1993 15:18:27 GMT From: Tommi Ketola Subject: Life on Mars. Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.bio The present requirement for planetary protection on Mars'94 landers is: 300 bacteria per square meter, i.e. 300.000 bacteria in one lander. The landers are sterilized with alcohol (if I remember correctly). And a few words about landing. The stations are separated from orbiter 3-4 days before approach to MArs. A stations detects Martian atmosphere with accelerometer. The velocity of the station is about 6000 m/s, when it penetrates the atmosphere. The station decelarates with the help of the heatshield and the parachute is opened at about 30 km height. Airbag is filled before landing to decrease the impact shock amplitude. The result is a bouncing landing with 15-20 m/s velocity. I hope. __ Tommi Ketola ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1993 16:54:07 GMT From: Paul Dietz Subject: Life on Mars. Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.bio In article <1stqef$903@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.net (Pat) writes: > and besides doug, it looks like these days life is self assembling. > complexity and self assembly seems an intrinsic quality > of organic chemistry. It does? Since we really don't know how life originated (massively overhyped abiotic syntheses of trace amounts of very simple precursors notwithstanding), how can one make such a statement? The evidence is equally consistent with the "life is very rare, requiring specific conditions and great luck to begin." Absent a success at SETI, I doubt the question will be resolved soon. Paul F. Dietz dietz@cs.rochester.edu ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 93 15:50:13 GMT From: steveg@arc.ug.eds.com Subject: looking for PLANET MAPS Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins) writes: > tel002@dunix.drake.edu (Tim "Spock" Larson) writes: > >> Where can I get topographical maps of Mars, Venus, other terrestrial >>bodies? > > I still use the old National Geographic maps from the Apollo and Viking eras. Me too... > The other people to ask would be the US Geological Survey. They have maps of > just about everything. Unfortunately, I do not have their address. > That rings a bell. The USGS can be contacted at User Services Branch National Cartographic Information Center U.S. Geological Survey 507 National Center Reston, Virginia 22092 (703)860-6045 ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 93 08:57:13 +0930 From: etssp@levels.unisa.edu.au Subject: Neil Armstrong's first words (the real ones) Newsgroups: sci.space Henry Minsky (hqm@ai.mit.edu) writes on 9 May 93 19:40:14 +0930 >Can anyone tell me what Neil Armstrong's real first words were after >he stepped out of the apollo 11 lander? Someone told me that they were >something like "The soil is sandy and loose, I can kick it around with >my toe" or something like that. Here is a transcript (my own) of Neil Armstrong's first words on the surface of the Moon. Taken from the NASA short film, "For all mankind" of the Apollo 11 mission. I have not attempted to identify who the speakers are. Guided by Buzz Aldrin, Neil Armstrong in his bulky suit worked his way through the Eagle's forward hatch. "How I'm doin'." "You're doin' fine." "OK, Houston, I'm on the porch." "Roger, Neil." "Yeah, we're getting a picture on the TV." "I'm err at the foot of the ladder. The LEM footpads are only err err depressed in the surface about err one or two inches. I'm gonna step off the LEM now. That's one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind." "There seems to be no difficulty in moving around here ??? and we suspect that err its even, perhaps easier than the simulations in one sixth g that we performed err on doing it in simulations on the ground. Basicly no trouble to err walk around." "Ahh that looks beautiful from here Neil." "It has a stark beauty all its own, its err like much of the high desert of err the United States. Its err different, but its very pretty out here." Armstrong next set about taking pictures and collecting a contingency sample of Lunar soil. "The surface is fine and powdery. I can, I can pick it up loosely with my toe. It does adhere in fine layers err like err powdered charcoal to the err to the sole and and sides of my boots. I only go in err small fraction of an inch, maybe an eighth of an inch, but I can see the footprints of my err boots and the treads in the fine sandy particles." -- Steven S. Pietrobon, Australian Space Centre for Signal Processing Signal Processing Research Institute, University of South Australia The Levels, SA 5095, Australia. steven@spri.levels.unisa.edu.au ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1993 16:32:54 GMT From: Henry Spencer Subject: payload return Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1srbm8$1o4@hsc.usc.edu> khayash@hsc.usc.edu (Ken Hayashida) writes: >BTW, let's deal with the mass return issue. I contend that >shuttle has maintained the best performance in terms of any space vehicle >when returning material from orbit. Does anyone know the mass return >capabilities of DC-X/Y? NASP? DC-X has no orbital capability and therefore no return capability. :-) DC-Y's designed return capability equals its payload, as I recall -- nominally 20klbs I believe. NASP is a paper project with no capability to do anything real, and that is not going to change. The proposed X-30, which is most unlikely to ever be built, would have had a payload/return capability of roughly zero. In any case, this is all a bit silly, since there is no *requirement* for intact return of anything larger than a space-station experiment rack. -- SVR4 resembles a high-speed collision | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology between SVR3 and SunOS. - Dick Dunn | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1993 16:37:40 GMT From: Henry Spencer Subject: payload return Newsgroups: sci.space In article jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins) writes: >An operational DC orbital vehicle ... will have the >capability to take down as much as it brings up if for no other reason than >as a safety issue... Actually, it's normal to have an emergency-landing limit higher than the normal-landing limit, in which case you might be able to take on occasional launches of payloads that exceed the normal limit but aren't going to come back down except in a pinch. The shuttle does this sometimes, I believe. However, my impression is that the *plan* for the DCs is to make the normal-landing payload limit equal the launch-payload limit. -- SVR4 resembles a high-speed collision | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology between SVR3 and SunOS. - Dick Dunn | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 1993 13:24:04 GMT From: "David M. Palmer" Subject: Philosophy Quest. How Boldly? Newsgroups: sci.space gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman) writes: >Lack of a skeleton means that muscles have to actively resist >gravity at all times on land rather than supplying only balancing >forces. That means that much more energy would be required for the >creature to function. The bones also supply leverage points for >pushing and lateral movement. That's why you don't find large >active boneless creatures on land. Hydraulics can make rigid tubes. No energy required just for support. Hydraulics also allow a creature to produce large forces with weak muscles, using the principle of a hydraulic jack rather than a lever. >It's interesting to note that, on >land, creatures are either two legged or 4 legged, with tiny insects >having 6 or 8 legs, but never 3 legged, though that would be a >stable configuration. It can be argued that 2 legged creatures Kangaroos are 3-legged. The specific number of limbs a creature has is an accident of evolution, it is hard to make changes in some structures. The panda has a thumb plus as many fingers as its ancestors (five?) on each hand, but the thumb is a modified wristbone rather than a modified finger, and extra fingers are much more common than extra limbs, especially fully-functional ones. >Thermodynamic considerations of surface/volume relationships would >seem to dictate that active complex creatures stay in a size range >similar to what we see about us. 6 inch tall intelligent aliens >seem unlikely, as do those much larger than the elephant. Why can't a lemur or a brontosaurus* be intelligent? [*Yes, I know that the brontosaurus is a mythical beast produced by putting the head of another dinosaur on an apatosaurus, but so far space aliens are also mythical.] -- David M. Palmer palmer@alumni.caltech.edu palmer@tgrs.gsfc.nasa.gov ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1993 14:18:25 GMT From: Doug Loss Subject: Space books from Krieger Newsgroups: sci.space Yesterday I got an unsolicited catalog in the mail from Krieger Publishing Company, called "Space Technology Titles." From the titles and the descriptions many of the books look very tempting. The prices are a little salty though, ranging from US$27.50 to $112.50, with most of the books in the $40-80 range. Does anyone have any opinions on the quality of Krieger's books, and which ones I should check out first? I suspect I'll have to try to convince the university and/or public libraries to buy them for me, as I'm pretty sure my wife wouldn't care for me spending $79.50 for a book on "Spacecraft Attitude Dynamics and Control." FYI, Krieger's contact info is: Krieger Publishing Company P.O. Box 9542 Melbourne, FL 32902-9542 USA (407) 724-9542 Direct Order Line (407) 727-7270 FAX (407) 951-3671 Doug Loss loss@husky.bloomu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1993 12:19:50 GMT From: Paul Dietz Subject: Who is Henry Spencer anyway? Newsgroups: sci.space In article schumach@convex.com (Richard A. Schumacher) writes: > Henry Spencer is God. No, "Henry Spencer" is a pseudonym for Sandor at the Zoo, a military corporation of the High Beyond. I don't understand how they get their feed into the Slow Zone, though. Paul F. Dietz dietz@cs.rochester.edu "Death to vermin." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1993 16:31:26 GMT From: "Phil G. Fraering" Subject: Who is Henry Spencer anyway? Newsgroups: sci.space etoyoc@leland.Stanford.EDU (aaron thode) writes: >Having tracked sci.space for quite a while, I have some questions >about a mysterious figure called Henry Spencer. If there is anything >going on in the space community, he seems to know it. > The questions are somewhat tounge-in-cheek: > 1) Is sci.space a hobby or a job for you? > 1) Do you ever eat or sleep? > 3) Does U of Toronto Zoology department conduct space research? > Or do you just use an account there? >Just curious. >Aaron I think I can answer the question as to who the mysterious Henry Spencer is. Henry Spencer is apparently the main person in charge of the computer facilities at the University of Toronto's Zoology department. Given that this department is rather large, well known, and well funded, and has a reputation of innovative use of computers and sensing technology in the fields of technology (source: stuff I've seen on Nova about how they were using CAT scanners to image dinosaur skulls, with impressive computer processing), this seems to me (from out here) to be a rather heavy duty job. And yes, Henry Spencer has a hobby. It isn't sci.space per se; you see, he once wrote this program (along with someone else whose full name I don't remember, but his first name is Geoff) called cnews. cnews is a _package_ of programs and specifications that lets computers interchange news articles in a timely and smooth fashion. It includes the inews standard protocol for posting and NNTP for exchange of articles amoung various server systems. -- Phil Fraering |"Number one good faith! You convert, pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|you not tortured by demons!" - anon. Mahen missionary ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1993 10:29:29 MST From: "Richard Schroeppel" Subject: why math Ellis of Lemuria asks > > what new has math "told" us recently? and Fred Baube (tm) responded It's a multi-lifetime endeavor .. It is bound to have quiet, boring times .. If you're wondering why in Hell ANYONE would want to toil away an entire career and garner perhaps a footnote in the 24th century, check out the book "A Mathematician's Apology". This is beside the point. The reason I do math is because it's fun. The same reason applies for most mathematicians. If they were in it for the money, there are better paying jobs available to people who understand numbers and letters. The notion that you're hoping for a 24th century footnote is silly; the recognition reward is small, but it's in the here and now. You can usually find somebody else who's interested in your little corner, and the two of you can admire each other's work. It beats watching football. That's not a justification for public funding of math research, or of requiring English majors to learn calculus. The reasons for these aberrations must be sought outside the realm of mathematics. Rich Schroeppel rcs@cs.arizona.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1993 16:27:37 GMT From: "Phil G. Fraering" Subject: Why we like DC-X (was Re: Shuttle 0-Defects & Bizarre? DC-X?) Newsgroups: sci.space khayash@hsc.usc.edu (Ken Hayashida) writes: >~WARNING: GENTEEL TYPE MEMBERS OF AUDIENCE SHOULD NOT READ FURTHUR. >this discussion will deal with the aspects of defecation on-orbit. >Allen! 8-D |-) 8-D 8-) (I am laughing hysterically!) >If DC-Y carries people into orbit, then it's gonna need that toilet >too! Unless you wanta pull out your local ziplock baggie and tape it >to your fellow passenger's rectum (i.e. apollo style). ... The one thing you're missing out on is that the super-advanced one-hundred million dollar shuttle toilet is the same basic design, with no improvement in functionality whatsoever, of the el cheapo "Bob and Ray's giant overstocked warehouse" space toilet that was used on Skylab. They could have probably saved 99 million by simply pulling out the blueprints and building another one of those. -- Phil Fraering |"Number one good faith! You convert, pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|you not tortured by demons!" - anon. Mahen missionary ------------------------------ End of Space Digest Volume 16 : Issue 566 ------------------------------