Date: Sun, 18 Apr 93 05:00:03 From: Space Digest maintainer Reply-To: Space-request@isu.isunet.edu Subject: Space Digest V16 #468 To: Space Digest Readers Precedence: bulk Space Digest Sun, 18 Apr 93 Volume 16 : Issue 468 Today's Topics: A flawed propulsion system: Space Shuttle army in space (3 msgs) DC-X update??? Diaspar Virtual Reality Network Announcement End of the Space Age? (2 msgs) help for school NASA "Wraps" Orbital RepairStation (2 msgs) Orion drive in vacuum -- how? (3 msgs) Quotation Was:(Re: " to one of these addresses: listserv@uga (BITNET), rice::boyle (SPAN/NSInet), utadnx::utspan::rice::boyle (THENET), or space-REQUEST@isu.isunet.edu (Internet). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 17 Apr 93 18:54:59 EDT From: aa429@freenet.carleton.ca (Terry Ford) Subject: A flawed propulsion system: Space Shuttle For an essay, I am writing about the space shuttle and a need for a better propulsion system. Through research, I have found that it is rather clumsy (i.e. all the checks/tests before launch), the safety hazards ("sitting on a hydrogen bomb"), etc.. If you have any beefs about the current space shuttle program Re: propulsion, please send me your ideas. Thanks a lot. -- Terry Ford [aa429@freenet.carleton.ca] Nepean, Ontario, Canada. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 1993 17:31:36 GMT From: kerry todd johnson Subject: army in space Newsgroups: sci.space Is anybody out there willing to discuss with me careers in the Army that deal with space? After I graduate, I will have a commitment to serve in the Army, and I would like to spend it in a space-related field. I saw a post a long time ago about the Air Force Space Command which made a fleeting reference to its Army counter-part. Any more info on that would be appreciated. I'm looking for things like: do I branch Intelligence, or Signal, or other? To whom do I voice my interest in space? What qualifications are necessary? Etc, etc. BTW, my major is computer science engineering. Please reply to ktj@reef.cis.ufl.edu Thanks for ANY info. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= = Whether they ever find life there or not, I think Jupiter should be = = considered an enemy planet. -- Jack Handy = ---ktj@reef.cis.ufl.edu---cirop59@elm.circa.ufl.edu---endeavour@circa.ufl.edu-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 93 12:47:08 PDT From: Charlie Prael Subject: army in space Newsgroups: sci.space ktj@beach.cis.ufl.edu (kerry todd johnson) writes: > Is anybody out there willing to discuss with me careers in the Army that deal > with space? After I graduate, I will have a commitment to serve in the Army, > and I would like to spend it in a space-related field. I saw a post a long > time ago about the Air Force Space Command which made a fleeting reference to > its Army counter-part. Any more info on that would be appreciated. I'm > looking for things like: do I branch Intelligence, or Signal, or other? To > whom do I voice my interest in space? What qualifications are necessary? > Etc, etc. BTW, my major is computer science engineering. Kerry-- I'm guessing a little at this, because it's been a few years since I saw the info, but you will probably want to look at Air Defense Artillery as a specialty, or possibly Signals. The kind of thing you're looking for is SDI-type assignments, but it'll be pretty prosaic stuff. Things like hard-kill ATBM missiles, some of the COBRA rigs -- that kind of thing. Hope that gives you some ideas on where to look, though. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Charlie Prael - dante@shakala.com Shakala BBS (ClanZen Radio Network) Sunnyvale, CA +1-408-734-2289 ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 1993 17:45:21 -0400 From: Pat Subject: army in space Newsgroups: sci.space There is the Army Ballistic Missile Defense Organization. They were the precursors to SDIO. and still exist under that umbrella. Army Signal Corp's and DCA defense Comm Agency oops DISA, they just changed names do space work. that's the point of all those defense comm sats. But don't worry, there are lots of jobs that need ditch digging, somehow you'll end up there ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1993 14:51:41 GMT From: John Lussmyer Subject: DC-X update??? Newsgroups: sci.space henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes: > The first flight will be a low hover that will demonstrate a vertical > landing. There will be no payload. DC-X will never carry any kind Exactly when will the hover test be done, and will any of the TV networks carry it. I really want to see that... -- John Lussmyer (dragon@angus.mi.org) Mystery Spot BBS, Royal Oak, MI --------------------------------------------?-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 93 02:05:35 GMT From: Wyatt Miler Subject: Diaspar Virtual Reality Network Announcement Newsgroups: sci.space Posted to the Internet by wmiler@nyx.cs.du.edu 000062David42 041493003715 The Lunar Tele-operation Model One (LTM1) ========================================= By David H. Mitchell March 23, 1993 INTRODUCTION: In order to increase public interest in space-based and lunar operations, a real miniature lunar-like environment is being constructed on which to test tele-operated models. These models are remotely-controlled by individuals located world-wide using their personal computers, for EduTainment purposes. Not only does this provide a test-bed for simple tele-operation and tele-presence activities but it also provides for the sharing of information on methods of operating in space, including, but not limited to, layout of a lunar colony, tele-operating machines for work and play, disseminating educational information, providing contests and awards for creativity and achievement and provides a new way for students worldwide to participate in Twenty-First century remote learning methods. Because of the nature of the LTM1 project, people of all ages, interests and skills can contribute scenery and murals, models and structures, interfacing and electronics, software and graphics. In operation LTM1 is an evolving playground and laboratory that can be used by children, students and professionals worldwide. Using a personal computer at home or a terminal at a participating institution a user is able to tele-operate real models at the LTM1 base for experimental or recreational purposes. Because a real facility exists, ample opportunity is provided for media coverage of the construction of the lunar model, its operation and new features to be added as suggested by the users themselves. This has broad inherent interest for a wide range of groups: - tele-operations and virtual reality research - radio control, model railroad and ham radio operation - astronomy and space planetariums and science centers - art and theater - bbs and online network users - software and game developers - manufacturers and retailers of model rockets, cars and trains - children - the child in all of us LTM1 OVERALL DESIGN: A room 14 feet by 8 feet contains the base lunar layout. The walls are used for murals of distant moon mountains, star fields and a view of the earth. The "floor" is the simulated lunar surface. A global call for contributions is hereby made for material for the lunar surface, and for the design and creation of scale models of lunar colony elements, scenery, and machine-lets. The LTM1 initial design has 3 tele-operated machinelets: 1. An SSTO scale model which will be able to lift off, hover and land; 2. A bulldozerlet which will be able to move about in a quarry area; and 3. A moon-train which will traverse most of the simulated lunar surface. Each machinelet has a small TV camera utilizing a CCD TV chip mounted on it. A personal computer digitizes the image (including reducing picture content and doing data-compression to allow for minimal images to be sent to the operator for control purposes) and also return control signals. The first machinelet to be set up will be the moon-train since model trains with TV cameras built in are almost off-the-shelf items and control electronics for starting and stopping a train are minimal. The user will receive an image once every 1 to 4 seconds depending on the speed of their data link to LTM1. Next, an SSTO scale model with a CCD TV chip will be suspended from a servo-motor operated wire frame mounted on the ceiling allowing for the SSTO to be controlled by the operator to take off, hover over the entire lunar landscape and land. Finally, some tank models will be modified to be CCD TV chip equipped bulldozerlets. The entire initial LTM1 will allow remote operators worldwide to receive minimal images while actually operating models for landing and takeoff, traveling and doing work. The entire system is based on commercially available items and parts that can be easily obtained except for the interface electronics which is well within the capability of many advanced ham radio operator and computer hardware/software developers. By taking a graphically oriented communications program (Dmodem) and adding a tele-operations screen and controls, the necessary user interface can be provided in under 80 man hours. PLAN OF ACTION: The Diaspar Virtual Reality Network has agreed to sponsor this project by providing a host computer network and Internet access to that network. Diaspar is providing the 14 foot by 8 foot facility for actual construction of the lunar model. Diaspar has, in stock, the electronic tanks that can be modified and one CCD TV chip. Diaspar also agrees to provide "rail stock" for the lunar train model. Diaspar will make available the Dmodem graphical communications package and modify it for control of the machines-lets. An initial "ground breaking" with miniature shovels will be performed for a live photo-session and news conference on April 30, 1993. The initial models will be put in place. A time-lapse record will be started for historical purposes. It is not expected that this event will be completely serious or solemn. The lunar colony will be declared open for additional building, operations and experiments. A photographer will be present and the photographs taken will be converted to .gif images for distribution world-wide to major online networks and bbs's. A press release will be issued calling for contributions of ideas, time, talent, materials and scale models for the simulated lunar colony. A contest for new designs and techniques for working on the moon will then be announced. Universities will be invited to participate, the goal being to find instructors who wish to have class participation in various aspects of the lunar colony model. Field trips to LTM1 can be arranged and at that time the results of the class work will be added to the model. Contributors will then be able to tele-operate any contributed machine-lets once they return to their campus. A monthly LTM1 newsletter will be issued both electronically online and via conventional means to the media. Any major new tele-operated equipment addition will be marked with an invitation to the television news media. Having a large, real model space colony will be a very attractive photo opportunity for the television community. Especially since the "action" will be controlled by people all over the world. Science fiction writers will be invited to issue "challenges" to engineering and human factors students at universities to build and operate the tele-operated equipment to perform lunar tasks. Using counter-weight and pulley systems, 1/6 gravity may be simulated to some extent to try various traction challenges. The long term goal is creating world-wide interest, education, experimentation and remote operation of a lunar colony. LTM1 has the potential of being a long term global EduTainment method for space activities and may be the generic example of how to teach and explore in many other subject areas not limited to space EduTainment. All of this facilitates the kind of spirit which can lead to a generation of people who are ready for the leap to the stars! CONCLUSION: EduTainment is the blending of education and entertainment. Anyone who has ever enjoyed seeing miniatures will probably see the potential impact of a globally available layout for recreation, education and experimentation purposes. By creating a tele-operated model lunar colony we not only create world-wide publicity, but also a method of trying new ideas that require real (not virtual) skills and open a new method for putting people's minds in space. MOONLIGHTERS: "Illuminating the path of knowledge about space and lunar development." The following people are already engaged in various parts of this work: David42, Rob47, Dash, Hyson, Jzer0, Vril, Wyatt, The Dark One, Tiggertoo, The Mad Hatter, Sir Robin, Jogden. Come join the discussion any Friday night from 10:30 to midnight PST in Diaspar Virtual Reality Network. Ideas welcome! Internet telnet to: 192.215.11.1 or diaspar.com (voice) 714-376-1776 (2400bd) 714-376-1200 (9600bd) 714-376-1234 Email inquiries to LTM1 project leader Jzer@Hydra.unm.edu or directly to Jzer0 on Diaspar. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 1993 18:47:37 GMT From: Jeff Bytof - SIO Subject: End of the Space Age? Newsgroups: sci.space We are not at the end of the Space Age, but only at the end of Its beginning. That space exploration is no longer a driver for technical innovation, or a focus of American cultural attention is certainly debatable; however, technical developments in other quarters will always be examined for possible applications in the space area and we can look forward to many innovations that might enhance the capabilities and lower the cost of future space operations. The Dream is Alive and Well. -Jeff Bytof member, technical staff Institute for Remote Exploration ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 1993 17:53:15 -0400 From: Pat Subject: End of the Space Age? Newsgroups: sci.space Oddly, enough, The smithsonian calls the lindbergh years the golden age of flight. I would call it the granite years, reflecting the primitive nature of it. It was romantic, swashbuckling daredevils, "those daring young men in their flying machines". But in reality, it sucked. Death was a highly likely occurence, and the environment blew. Ever see the early navy pressure suits, they were modified diving suits. You were ready to star in "plan 9 from outer space". Radios and Nav AIds were a joke, and engines ran on castor oil. They picked and called aviators "men with iron stomachs", and it wasn't due to vertigo. Oddly enough, now we are in the golden age of flight. I can hop the shuttle to NY for $90 bucks, now that's golden. Mercury gemini, and apollo were romantic, but let's be honest. Peeing in bags, having plastic bags glued to your butt everytime you needed a bowel movement. Living for days inside a VW Bug. Romantic, but not commercial. The DC-X points out a most likely new golden age. An age where fat cigar smoking business men in loud polyester space suits will fill the skys with strip malls and used space ship lots. hhhmmmmm, maybe i'll retract that golden age bit. Maybe it was better in the old days. Of course, then we'll have wally schirra telling his great grand children, "In my day, we walked on the moon. Every day. Miles. no buses. you kids got it soft". pat ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 93 04:55:31 EDT From: mcrandall@eagle.wesleyan.edu Subject: help for school Newsgroups: sci.space I am a newbie to the net, and I am trying to get some information for a paper I am working on to get back into college. If anyone can send me data on Solar coronal holes and recurrant aurora for the past thirty years it would be a big help. Or, if you have information on more esoteric things like Telluric current, surge bafflers power companies use, or other effects sporatic aurora have on the Earth's magnetic field, I'd be eternally gratefull. Please send anything interesting to me at Marty Crandall-Grela Van Vleck Observatory Wesleyan University Middletown,Ct 06487 or e-mail it to me at mcrandall@eagle.wesleyan.edu Thank-you in advance, Marty ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 1993 16:42 CDT From: wingo%cspara.decnet@Fedex.Msfc.Nasa.Gov Subject: NASA "Wraps" Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993Apr10.145502.28866@iti.org>, aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes... >In article <9APR199318394890@judy.uh.edu> wingo%cspara.decnet@Fedex.Msfc.Nasa.Gov writes: > >>>BTW, universities do the same thing. They however, have a wrap of >>>10% to 15% (again, this is over and above any overhead charge). > >>Wrong Allen. The max overhead charge is ALL of the charge. There is no >>seperately budgeted overhead in any shape size form or fashion. > >A professor at the University of Virginia told me their wrap was about >15%. The subcontracts I have let out and worked on for other universities >are about the same. My employer (a non-profit research institute) does >the same. This is generally reffered to as the fee. > I don't care who told you this it is not generally true. I see EVERY single line item on a contract and I have to sign it. There is no such thing as wrap at this university. I also asked around here. Ther is no wrap at Marquette, University of Wisconsin Madison, Utah State, Weber State or Embry Riddle U. I am not saying that it doees not happen but in every instance that I have been able to track down it does not. Also the president of our University who was Provost at University of West Virgina said that it did not happen there either and that this figure must be included in the overhead to be a legitimate charge. >>How do >>I know? I write proposals and have won contracts and I know to the dime >>what the charges are. At UAH for example the overhead is 36.6%. > >Sounds like they are adding it to their overhead rate. Go ask your >costing people how much fee they add to a project. > I did they never heard of it but suggest that, like our president did, that any percentage number like this is included in the overhead. >>If you have some numbers Allen then show them else quit barking. > >I did Dennis; read the article. To repeat: an internal estimate done by >the Reston costing department says Freedom can be built for about $1.8B >a year and operated for $1B per year *IF* all the money where spent on >Freedom. Since we spend about half a billion $$ more per year it looks >like roughly 25% of the money is wasted. Now if you think I'm making >this up, you can confirm it in the anonymous editorial published a few >weeks ago in Space News. > No Allen you did not. You merely repeated allegations made by an Employee of the Overhead capital of NASA. Nothing that Reston does could not be dont better or cheaper at the Other NASA centers where the work is going on. Kinda funny isn't it that someone who talks about a problem like this is at a place where everything is overhead. >This Dennis, is why NASA has so many problems: you can't accept that >anything is wrong unless you can blame it on Congress. Oh, sure, you'll >say NASA has problems but do you believe it? Remember the WP 02 >overrun? You insisted it was all congresses fault when NASA management >knew about the overrun for almost a year yet refused to act. Do you >still blame Congress for the overrun? > Why did the Space News artice point out that it was the congressionally demanded change that caused the problems? Methinks that you are being selective with the facts again. >>By your own numbers Allen, at a cost of 500 million per flight the >>service cost of flying shuttle to SSF is 2 billion for four flights, so how >>did you get your one billion number? > >I have no idea what your trying to say here Dennis. > > Allen >-- If it takes four flights a year to resupply the station and you have a cost of 500 million a flight then you pay 2 billion a year. You stated that your "friend" at Reston said that with the current station they could resupply it for a billion a year "if the wrap were gone". This merely points out a blatent contridiction in your numbers that understandably you fail to see. Dennis, University of Alabama in Huntsville. Sorry gang but I have a deadline for a satellite so someone else is going to have to do Allen's math for him for a while. I will have little chance to do so. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1993 14:37:31 GMT From: Steve Collins Subject: Orbital RepairStation Newsgroups: sci.space The difficulties of a high Isp OTV include: Long transfer times (radiation damage from VanAllen belts for both the spacecraft and OTV Arcjets or Xenon thrusters require huge amounts of power so you have to have either nuclear power source (messy, dangerous and source of radiation damage) or BIG solar arrays (sensitive to radiation, or heavy) that make attitude control and docking a big pain. If you go solar, you have to replace the arrays every trip, with current technology. Nuclear power sources are strongly restricted by international treaty. Refueling (even for very high Isp like xenon) is still required and] turn out to be a pain. You either have to develop autonomous rendezvous or long range teleoperation to do docking or ( and refueling) . You still can't do much plane change because the deltaV required is so high! The Air Force continues to look at doing things this way though. I suppose they are biding their time till the technology becomes available and the problems get solved. Not impossible in principle, but hard to do and marginally cheaper than one shot rockets, at least today. Just a few random thoughts on high Isp OTV's. I designed one once... Steve Collins ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1993 22:59:36 GMT From: Henry Spencer Subject: Orbital RepairStation Newsgroups: sci.space In article collins@well.sf.ca.us (Steve Collins) writes: >The difficulties of a high Isp OTV include... >If you go solar, you have to replace the arrays every trip, with >current technology. You're assuming that "go solar" = "photovoltaic". Solar dynamic power (turbo-alternators) doesn't have this problem. It also has rather less air drag due to its higher efficiency, which is a non-trivial win for big solar plants at low altitude. Now, you might have to replace the *rest* of the electronics fairly often, unless you invest substantial amounts of mass in shielding. >Nuclear power sources are strongly restricted >by international treaty. References? Such treaties have been *proposed*, but as far as I know, none of them has ever been negotiated or signed. -- All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology - Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1993 17:21:24 GMT From: Michael Robert Williams Subject: Orion drive in vacuum -- how? Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,sci.space In article <1993Apr17.053333.15696@sfu.ca> Leigh Palmer writes: >In article <1qn4bgINN4s7@mimi.UU.NET> James P. Goltz, goltz@mimi.UU.NET >writes: >> Background: The Orion spacedrive was a theoretical concept. > >It was more than a theoretical concept; it was seriously pursued by >Freeman Dyson et al many years ago. I don't know how well-known this is, >but a high explosive Orion prototype flew (in the atmosphere) in San >Diego back in 1957 or 1958. I was working at General Atomic at the time, >but I didn't learn about the experiment until almost thirty years later, >when >Ted Taylor visited us and revealed that it had been done. I feel sure >that someone must have film of that experiment, and I'd really like to >see it. Has anyone out there seen it? > >Leigh Nope, I haven't seen the film, but Taylor's biography ("The Curve of Binding Energy") contains a short section on Orion and this test flight. Apparently it was quite impressi, and got von Braun very excited. In Real Life:Mike Williams | Perpetual Grad Student e-mail :mrw9e@virginia.edu| - It's not just a job, it's an indenture --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "If you ever have a world of your own, plan ahead- don't eat it." ST:TNG ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1993 22:53:48 GMT From: Henry Spencer Subject: Orion drive in vacuum -- how? Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,sci.space In article <1993Apr17.053333.15696@sfu.ca> Leigh Palmer writes: >... a high explosive Orion prototype flew (in the atmosphere) in San >Diego back in 1957 or 1958... I feel sure >that someone must have film of that experiment, and I'd really like to >see it. Has anyone out there seen it? The National Air & Space Museum has both the prototype and the film. When I was there, some years ago, they had the prototype on display and the film continuously repeating. -- All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology - Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1993 01:43:05 GMT From: Leigh Palmer Subject: Orion drive in vacuum -- how? Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,sci.space In article Henry Spencer, henry@zoo.toronto.edu writes: >The National Air & Space Museum has both the prototype and the film. >When I was there, some years ago, they had the prototype on display and >the film continuously repeating. Great! I'll visit the National Air and Space Museum at the end of the month with my wife, who was also working at General Atomic at the time. Once again netnews has enriched my life. Leigh ------------------------------ Date: 16 Apr 93 18:07:31 GMT From: Bruce Watson Subject: Quotation Was:(Re: , snydefj@eng.auburn.edu (Frank J. Snyder) writes: > > I am looking for any information concerning projects involving Solar > Sails. I understand that the JPL did an extensive study on the subject > back in the late 70's but I am having trouble gathering such information. > > Are there any groups out there currently involved in such a project ? > > Frank Snyder > Auburn University > > snydefj@eng.auburn.edu I know someone had long talks about Solar Sails early this year and late last year..Also about Solar Sailing. Not sure who captured it if possible.. I think it was one of the regulars who had most or all the data? I think I started the latest round or the late last year round.. But the topic has been around here, off and on for a year or two.. == Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 1993 18:34:17 GMT From: CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON Subject: Space Debris Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.materials There is a guy in NASA Johnson Space Center that might answer your question. I do not have his name right now but if you follow up I can dig that out for you. C.O.Egalon@larc.nasa.gov Claudio Oliveira Egalon ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 1993 19:24:30 GMT From: Joel C Belog Subject: Space Shuttle information wanted Newsgroups: sci.space Hello everyone, I was hoping someone could help me out. I'm writing a program for my astronautics class for assent of the shuttle into a low orbit. There are two things I'd like to know, First, how much time elapses between launch and the pitch over. Second, what is the cross-sectional area of the shuttle, srb's, and ext. tank. Thanks for any information, post or e-mail. Joel Belog nether@wpi.wpi.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1993 14:43:39 EDT From: Graydon Subject: What if the USSR had reached the Moon first? Newsgroups: sci.space This is turning into 'what's a moonbase good for', and I ought not to post when I've a hundred some odd posts to go, but I would think that the real reason to have a moon base is economic. Since someone with space industry will presumeably have a much larger GNP than they would _without_ space industry, eventually, they will simply be able to afford more stuff. Graydon ------------------------------ End of Space Digest Volume 16 : Issue 468 ------------------------------