Date: Thu, 15 Apr 93 05:11:31 From: Space Digest maintainer Reply-To: Space-request@isu.isunet.edu Subject: Space Digest V16 #461 To: Space Digest Readers Precedence: bulk Space Digest Thu, 15 Apr 93 Volume 16 : Issue 461 Today's Topics: Clementine name Clementine Science Team Selected (2 msgs) Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter? (2 msgs) How many read sci.space? How to get there? (was Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?) Mir 2's planned orbit [was Re: Degrees vs. experience] New aircraft TU-154M for leasing, set spare parts. Orbital RepairStation Russian Operation of US Space Missions. Solar Sail Data Space Debris Temp Station for Orbital Repair/Scrap! Two-Line Orbital Element Set: Space Shuttle Welcome to the Space Digest!! Please send your messages to "space@isu.isunet.edu", and (un)subscription requests of the form "Subscribe Space " to one of these addresses: listserv@uga (BITNET), rice::boyle (SPAN/NSInet), utadnx::utspan::rice::boyle (THENET), or space-REQUEST@isu.isunet.edu (Internet). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 12:48:00 -0500 From: Mark Prado Subject: Clementine name Newsgroups: sci.space Reply address: mark.prado@permanet.org > From: max@monty.rand.org (Max Nelson) > Since the mission could provide information for future > prospecting, it was felt that the name should reflect a > mining theme - thus, was Clementine named. Please go just one step further: How has the word "Clementine" been associated with mining? Thanks, - Mark mark.prado@permanet.org * Origin: PerManNet Communications, Washington D.C., U.S.A. (1:109/349.2) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 22:06:36 GMT From: "Doug S. Caprette Bldg. 28 W191 x3892" Subject: Clementine Science Team Selected Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro In article henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes: >In article <1993Apr13.133347.11466@den.mmc.com> seale@possum.den.mmc.com (Eric H Seale) writes: >>Basically, SDIO wants to test out new sensors for potential anti-missile >>use -- international treaties won't allow you to test them on satellites... > >Nonsense, SDIO has run sensor tests against satellites repeatedly. There >is no treaty prohibition against it. >-- >All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology > - Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry Weapons tests too. What was the name of the astronomical research satellite they destroyed? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 06:26:58 GMT From: Henry Spencer Subject: Clementine Science Team Selected Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro In article dsc@gemini.gsfc.nasa.gov (Doug S. Caprette Bldg. 28 W191 x3892) writes: >>Nonsense, SDIO has run sensor tests against satellites repeatedly. There >>is no treaty prohibition against it. > >Weapons tests too. What was the name of the astronomical research satellite >they destroyed? A vulgar myth. The USAF -- *not* SDIO! -- destroyed an old DoD satellite in a test of their F-15-launched antisatellite weapon. The satellite in question did carry a couple of instruments that were still returning good data to civilian investigators, who were on board basically as guests of the military. It's unfortunate that they chose to knock down a satellite that was still scientifically useful, but there is no question that DoD had the right to dispose of their own property as they saw fit. And SDIO had nothing to do with this, although they were unquestionably interested in the test and its results. -- All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology - Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 03:54:39 GMT From: Leigh Palmer Subject: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter? Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary In article <1993Apr14.124237.1@stsci.edu> , zellner@stsci.edu writes: >The Martian satellites are in highly circular, co-planar orbits. If they were >indeed "captured" from somewhere else, it presumably happened during an epoch >in which there was still lots of viscosity (unaccreted gas and dust) in the >near vicinity of Mars. I believe tidal dissipation will accomplish the same end in the absence of gas and dust. It will certainly circularize an orbit, the small, negative delta-vees occuring near periapse, where the tidal interaction is strongest. Leigh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 04:12:17 GMT From: Leigh Palmer Subject: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter? Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary In article Henry Spencer, henry@zoo.toronto.edu writes: >Wouldn't be surprised if it was comparable to the last group. Those outer >retrograde satellites are widely suspected to be captured asteroids, and >they may be somewhat temporary on a geological time scale. I would be very surprised if the cometary particles were in orbits comparable to those of the outer satellites of Jupiter. The acquisiton of such satellites through the violent fragmentation of larger bodies is, indeed, an interesting possibility, but this sort of interaction has been observed before, and the association has always been transient. Those outermost satellites are rather tightly gravitationally bound to Jupiter, though they do appear rather far from him on the sky. I don't think anyone really expects they are temporary, but of course that is an unsolved problem; the permanence of Earth's being bound to the sun is subject to the same sort of uncertainty. Leigh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 93 07:24:29 GMT From: Ross Borden Subject: How many read sci.space? Newsgroups: sci.space In article <734850108.F00002@permanet.org> Mark.Prado@p2.f349.n109.z1.permanet.org (Mark Prado) writes: > >One could go on and on and on here, but I wonder ... how >many people read sci.space and of what power/influence are >these individuals? > Quick! Everyone who sees this, post a reply that says: "Hey, I read sci.space!" Then we can count them, and find out how many there are! :-) (This will also help answer that nagging question: "Just what is the maximum bandwidth of the Internet, anyways?") As for influence, I happen to be a close, trusted advisor of none other than Robert E. McElwaine himself! I help shape all of his important space-related policies. ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | I shot a man just to watch him die; | Ross Borden | | I'm going to Disneyland! | rborden@ra.uvic.ca | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 05:13:09 GMT From: Paul Gilmartin Subject: How to get there? (was Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?) Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey (higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov) wrote: : > This concept of a temporary orbit is new to me, what mechanism enables : > a comet to break free from Jovian orbit, once is has strayed into it? : While you're at it, comet experts, explain how a comet gets into : Jovian orbit to begin with! : There are non-gravitational forces from heating and outgassing when a : comet gets into the inner solar system. Also, if it breaks up, the : chunks go in different directions in a way that conserves momentum. : So I can see how Jovian capture might work in a handwaving way. ... Don't forget the Galilean satellites of Jupiter. Even as the Voyager spacecraft were freed from the Solar system by "slingshot" encounters with Jupiter and Saturn, a weakly bound comet might be freed from the Jovian system by similar encounters with Io, Europa, Ganymede, and Callisto. And since the laws of orbital mechanics are time-reversal invariant a capture is likewise possible. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 05:08:19 GMT From: "Gregory N. Bond" Subject: Mir 2's planned orbit [was Re: Degrees vs. experience] Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1q7v8f$e1@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes: What's the status of cape york, is that going up still? As far as I can tell, it's dead but hasn't stopped breathing yet. Which is to say, they have missed a couple of firm deadlines to line up funding with zero success, but have not yet officially given up. The original proposal was basically a real estate deal (a spaceport being a way to increase the value of swampland) but the collapse of the Japanese property and equity markets over the last few years have killed it off. Greg. -- Gregory Bond Burdett Buckeridge & Young Ltd Melbourne Australia Knox's 386 is slick. Fox in Sox, on Knox's Box Knox's box is very quick. Plays lots of LSL. He's sick! (Apologies to John "Iron Bar" Mackin.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 21:20:10 GMT From: "Dan J. Declerck" Subject: New aircraft TU-154M for leasing, set spare parts. Newsgroups: misc.forsale,misc.invest,misc.jobs.contract,rec.aviation,sci.space In article <1993Apr12.145659.21695@trentu.ca> dmorton@TrentU.CA writes: >In article <1993Apr12.070927.1290@beaver.cs.washington.edu>, larion@cs.washington.edu (Larion Tyshler) writes: >>In article <1993Apr12.021502.27778@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> tony2@prefect.cc.bellcore.com (gozdz,antoni s) writes: >>>In article edward@commed.msk.su writes: >>>>Category: Offers to leasing >>>>Headline: New Aircraft TU-154M >>>> >>>> >>> >>>Mr. Director Agabalaevich: >>> >>>No bombs included?! what a rip-off... I'll pass this one. >>> >>>--T. >>> >>>BTW, are these guys out of their [....] minds, or was >>>our propaganda so effective that they believe some >>>netters could actually buy such stuff and land in >>>their driveway? Too much soda pop, too quick... >> >> >>You *WANT* bombs? Just ask! >> > BOMBS? >Go look up Tu 154M, it should be in most AIRLINER hand-books. > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Sgt. D.J. Morton Environmental Resource Sciences >Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment Trent University > Peterborough, Ontario > K9J 7B8 Canada There are a few things wrong with the potential sale of this aircraft: There is starting to be a glut of new aircraft on the market (Airlines are taking delivery, then mothballing their new planes). Unless the fuel efficiency is better than the Airbus 320 or Boeing 767, this plane is not economically feasible for the major players (airlines). Unless the price is real cheap, and you have an owner that doesn't care about fuel economy (Saudi Family, maybe??) sales ought to be pretty glim. -- => Dan DeClerck | EMAIL: declrckd@rtsg.mot.com <= => Motorola Cellular APD | <= =>"Friends don't let friends wear neon"| Phone: (708) 632-4596 <= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 00:21:01 -0500 From: Mark Prado Subject: Orbital RepairStation Newsgroups: sci.space Reply address: mark.prado@permanet.org > = henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) > > = cemn@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Michael Nielsen) writes: > > It seems to me that so many billion of dollars are floating > > around in orbit around the earth... > > > It seems like a huge opportunity for the development for an orbital > > station capable of carrying out a repair of a vehicle in orbit, > The biggest problem with this is that all orbits are not alike. It can > actually be more expensive to reach a satellite from another orbit than > from the ground. If we got the fuel propellants from asteroids near Earth and established a decent permanent presence in space, then some entity would have a good business. But first, we need to implement supply of those near Earth asteroidal fuel propellants ... > Clarke orbit is about the only place where there are > a lot of satellites in the same orbit, reachable relatively cheaply from > a single repair base... and it is awkwardly high up, and in the fringes > of the outer Van Allen belt -- a poor place for a manned station. Unless it had massive shielding. Again, if we remove the assumption that all materiel must be blasted up from Earth (or blasted up using the Shuttle instead of old ICBMs), then the analysis changes significantly to where other program scenarios and conslusions may be reached. Shielding can be simple, if massive enough. Sandbags of asteroid dirt could do the job -- several meters' worth. Regardless of secondary radiation effects and the like. Have the robot pull it into the garage ... > > with out the clumsy suits (of course this adds problems). A garage is cheap and easy to build using lunarcrete reinforced or layered with asteroid steel, and shielded. Imagine also: piecing together huge antennas and satellite systems from more than one Earth launch. And filling the shuttle bay with ONLY satellite -- no fuel propellant or rocket. After all, it takes two tons of propellant for every one ton of satellite to go from LEO to GEO. One could go on and on and on here, but I wonder ... how many people read sci.space and of what power/influence are these individuals? However, the polishing critiques and stimulation are nice! Three heads are better than one!!! - el Prod-o mark.prado@permanet.org * Origin: PerManNet Communications, Washington D.C., U.S.A. (1:109/349.2) ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 1993 23:21:01 -0400 From: Pat Subject: Russian Operation of US Space Missions. Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro I imagine we'd have to send them Digital encrypters, Little toucy as that is export controlled equipment, or the software parameters so they could program their own. I suspect those guys are equipped for this sort of spoofing. I imagine most us SpySats are also X-Band equipped, and if nothing else a denial of service attack is easy to carry out. THey could send old recorded digital sequences just to lock up the receivers. Besides. We are committed to sending the russians aid to preserve certain vital sectors of their economy. wouldn't it be nice to get some marvelous science data too. Magellan, pulls some $40 million a year to operate in Radar mode. Maybe we could pay the russians $4 million a year to collect some of the More esoteric science results. COBE needs $1 Million / year to run. I bet for 1/4 of that they could run COBE. ANother thing is that If the russians start building DSN compatible gear, then we have more dishes for more difficult science missions. pat ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 05:17:46 GMT From: "Frank J. Snyder" Subject: Solar Sail Data Newsgroups: sci.space I am looking for any information concerning projects involving Solar Sails. I understand that the JPL did an extensive study on the subject back in the late 70's but I am having trouble gathering such information. Are there any groups out there currently involved in such a project ? Frank Snyder Auburn University snydefj@eng.auburn.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 01:30:29 GMT From: Farmer Ted Subject: Space Debris Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.materials Are there any "good" books on the subject of the removal of space debris? I am currently trying to find some theoretical way to trap or reduce the energy of LEO space debris sufficiently enough for it to fall into the atmosphere and burn up or stick to the space craft I am reducing the energy with and not cause a great increase the crafts energy. Is this possible? Any reply will be helpful. Rich No fancy quote as of yet! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 02:52:42 GMT From: Josh Hopkins Subject: Temp Station for Orbital Repair/Scrap! Newsgroups: sci.space nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes: >Clarke Orbit, Van Allen Belt and such, its been said its not a good place for >a space station. Why not a temporary space station. Inflatable or otherwise.. >basically setup the temporary space station, have a vehicle to catch old >sattelites and then broing them back to the temp space station for reuse, >unless they can (satellites) be repaired onsite.. Two things come to mind. First, comm satellites are very complex things. There are very few things that can go wrong with them that can be repaired without replacing parts (with the exact part brought up from Earth). Generally, satellites are turned off when their fuel runs out. Therefore, a more logical "repair" vehicle would be an automated tanker vehicle that can refuel properly fitted satellites. However, since this would be very complicated and advances in propulsion can be expected to substantialy increase satellite life within ten years, there won't be much demand for such a vehicle. Second, there isn't much demand for repairs in geosynchronous orbit. Modern communications satellites can be expected to last well over a decade. Even the modern Russian comsats are expected to last about 8 years. Michael Sternberg, of RIMSAT, is even calling the shorter lifetime of Russian satellites a plus, because they won't be offering technology to their customers that is 15 years old - they can launch a new satellite. In short there are much more important problems to work on than comsat repair. Somewhere I have my notes from Sternberg's talk, as well as Grechko's and one on DC-Y trajectories. I will try to get them transcribed to the net over the weekend. -- Josh Hopkins jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu "Tout ce qu'un homme est capable d'imaginer, d'autres hommes seront capable de le realiser" -Jules Verne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 01:45:47 GMT From: TS Kelso Subject: Two-Line Orbital Element Set: Space Shuttle Newsgroups: sci.space The most current orbital elements from the NORAD two-line element sets are carried on the Celestial BBS, (513) 427-0674, and are updated daily (when possible). Documentation and tracking software are also available on this system. As a service to the satellite user community, the most current elements for the current shuttle mission are provided below. The Celestial BBS may be accessed 24 hours/day at 300, 1200, 2400, 4800, or 9600 bps using 8 data bits, 1 stop bit, no parity. Element sets (also updated daily), shuttle elements, and some documentation and software are also available via anonymous ftp from archive.afit.af.mil (129.92.1.66) in the directory pub/space. STS 56 1 22621U 93 23 A 93104.24999999 .00045467 00000-0 13024-3 0 212 2 22621 57.0049 151.0451 0003962 279.5646 70.3698 15.92828691 954 1993 023B 1 22623U 93 23 B 93103.37312705 .00041032 00000-0 11888-3 0 86 2 22623 57.0000 155.1150 0004422 293.4650 66.5967 15.92653917 803 -- Dr TS Kelso Assistant Professor of Space Operations tkelso@afit.af.mil Air Force Institute of Technology ------------------------------ End of Space Digest Volume 16 : Issue 461 ------------------------------