Date: Thu, 1 Apr 93 05:39:55 From: Space Digest maintainer Reply-To: Space-request@isu.isunet.edu Subject: Space Digest V16 #399 To: Space Digest Readers Precedence: bulk Space Digest Thu, 1 Apr 93 Volume 16 : Issue 399 Today's Topics: Atlas rocket question (2 msgs) color temperature of sun and earth Flight time comparison: Voyager vs. Gallileo Gerald Bull (was: Jules Verne Gun) Guns for Space (3 msgs) Omnimax Small Astronaut (was: Budget Astronaut) Space Research Spin Off Space Station Aldrin Status of U.S./Soviet Cooperation STS-1 DISASTER/COVERUP (and mcelwaine) the call to space (was Re: Clueless Szaboisms ) TOPEX Observes Giant Waves from Storm of the Century Why is Venus so hot? WORKSHOP: SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGIES FOR SATELLITE AUTONOMY Welcome to the Space Digest!! Please send your messages to "space@isu.isunet.edu", and (un)subscription requests of the form "Subscribe Space " to one of these addresses: listserv@uga (BITNET), rice::boyle (SPAN/NSInet), utadnx::utspan::rice::boyle (THENET), or space-REQUEST@isu.isunet.edu (Internet). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 31 Mar 93 20:12:07 GMT From: Henry Spencer Subject: Atlas rocket question Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993Mar20.111126.22434@aber.ac.uk> mhr@aber.ac.uk (Michael Richards) writes: > Looking at footage of the Mercury programme launches, the Atlas >rockets (I think?) all seem to have a feature that I've never seen in any >other rocket. Just above the base of the first stage seem to be at least one, >or possibly more small engines that fire at an angle to the main engines. There's one on each side. This has been done on one or two other rockets of similar vintage; I think the Thor did it that way, and there are vernier engines among the clutter of nozzles at the base of the Russian "A" booster. They were for roll control, especially after booster-engine dropoff when there was only one main engine still firing, and for final trajectory adjustments. At the time Atlas was built, they weren't confident of being able to shut main engines down very precisely, and ICBMs need a very precise final velocity vector. I believe one of GD's improved-Atlas designs now in the works finally gets around to deleting them. The precision issue is unimportant now that there is always an upper stage doing the final boost. They must be doing something about roll control, but I imagine it's a lot smaller and lighter. -- All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology - Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 93 21:07:44 GMT From: Henry Spencer Subject: Atlas rocket question Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1pch7k$eph@access.digex.com> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes: >According to the space news article, the Atlas has an unusual configuration. >It has a two engine three nozzle configuration. Now that's an odd one. No, it just means they asked some pedantic twit of a rocket engineer. He wasn't even entirely right. There is a peculiar belief in some rocket-engineering circles that what really defines an "engine" is not combustion chamber or nozzle but pumps. So if two engines share pumps, they are really only one engine. Ignoring a few of the very earliest test flights (which had no sustainer engine), all Atlases have three main engines: two boosters and a sustainer. *Some* (not all!) versions of Atlas have the two booster engines sharing pumps. I don't know, offhand, which way the currently-operational Atlas variants do it. -- All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology - Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 93 23:38:15 GMT From: Wyatt Miler Subject: color temperature of sun and earth Newsgroups: sci.astro,sci.space Hello, I am looking for the min/max range of the color temperatures and intensities of the sun and earth as seen from the poles of the moon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, - Wyatt - Internet: wmiler@nyx.cs.du.edu ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 93 20:23:37 GMT From: Henry Spencer Subject: Flight time comparison: Voyager vs. Gallileo Newsgroups: sci.space In article <2n5tb=+@dixie.com> specht@dixie.com (Lowell O Specht Jr.) writes: >>>... There is NO WAY that a Titan IV could lift >>>TWO Centaurs much less a small solid kick motor and a probe on top of that. >>Remember, it doesn't have to lift it into orbit, although I'm not sure >>how the arithmetic would go on total lift capacity... > >I'm not following you. What do you mean it does not have to lift it >into orbit? We're talking about a mission out to infinity (well, pretty much) with no orbital phase. Clearly, at some point the thing will have just enough velocity to make orbit, if that's what you were trying to do. However, there is no requirement that this be at a stage break. The question is not whether T4+C can put a Centaur into orbit, but whether T4+C+C gives higher final velocity than T4+C. You lose some because the earlier stages are pushing a heavier load, perhaps enough that the second Centaur starts firing before orbital velocity is reached. You gain some from having another high-energy stage; PFF *is* a rather flyweight payload for this big booster, and putting some more mass into another stage might be a net win. >Regardless, the Titan IV was not structurally designed to carry that much >weight anyway... I'm sure the Titan II designers would make the same comment about the poor little slightly-uprated Titan II that sits in the middle of the Titan IV. Doesn't mean it can't be done, only that you have to think about it hard before deciding. However, this is a good question, and the answer is probably "no", because Titan IV is structurally a rather marginal design, I'm told. Reportedly, only about 90 days a year have sufficiently mild high-altitude winds for a Titan IV launch to be permissible. -- All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology - Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 93 17:27:55 GMT From: CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON Subject: Gerald Bull (was: Jules Verne Gun) Newsgroups: sci.space > Actually, as I understand it, they [the Iraqis] were funding the work of > Gerald Bull. > This is the same man responsible for the Canadian program, who simply > moved on to Iraq when the Canadians cut off his funding. He was > assassinated in Brussels a year or two back Hmm... Interesting... I did not know that he was assassinated. Look what I got from the book SPACE, Canada in the 20th Century by Christopher G. Trump; "In [Gerald Bull] own words: 'I had been given U.S. citizenship by an act of Congress and was then accused of treason for trying to sell my output to the Saudi Arabians. But I am still a Canadian - I will always be a Canadian. They allowed to plead guilty in the U.S. court for selling a 60 year-old Caribbean radar set to South Africa. After that they sent me to that "gulag" (prison camp) in Allentown, PA, where I served three months.' "An irrepressible man", the book continues, "Bull still maintains a home in Quebec, but also does most of his business in Spain and Belegium. He also has a major rocket research programme underway in China." Since the book was published in 1987 I do not doubt that Bull was subsequently assassinated... C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 93 19:02:35 GMT From: Pat Subject: Guns for Space Newsgroups: sci.space One of the National Labs, Livermore, sandia????? is futzing with a light gas gun. Rapidly compress hydrogen, then light it off. the projectile is in vacuum until it blows a diagphram off the end of the muzzle. It's just a research prototype. pat ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 93 00:33:34 GMT From: John Hinkey Subject: Guns for Space Newsgroups: sci.space Just a note to all who read this >Sorry about Key Words! >There has been a lot of work over the years on using a Gun to >launch space payloads. The Harp project under G. Bull launched >payloads to 130 Kms from Barbadoes using "Ole Betsy", two 16 >inch naval guns butted together. Accelerations up to 5000 G's >are acceptable if you want to launch solid fuel rockets, after that >the grains come unstuck. This was the priciple behind "Babylon" of >the Iraquis. Really a static charge, plenum chamber, rocket launcher >rather than a conventional gun. > The Germans in the 2 world war used their Millipede, or Hochsdruck- >pump cannon to bombard Antwerp, and the principle could be re-tried. >More interesting and practicable would be the "Ram Tube" being developed >by Prf. Herzberg at Washington University in Seattle, or the electromagnetic >coil gun under study at Sandia Labs.. >Incidently I am told that a nuke launcher was accidently created when >a 'very heavy' metal cover on the bore tube for an underground test >was blown off. Last seen going up at an estimate velocity of about >twice escape! The "Ram Tube" as Dave Stephenson called it is actually the "Ram Accelerator" being developed at the Univ. of Washington since 1984. The ram accelerator is also being developed at the Army Research Lab in Aberdeen, MD (120mm diam. bore), Eglin Air Force Base (93mm) and at the Institute de Saint Louis in France (90mm and 20 mm). Except for the Eglin facility, all are working and producing interesting results (Eglin's facility is not yet completed). No one has yet scaled the device up to space-launch usable (> 1 meter diam.) dimensions yet though. Current feelings are that the ram accelerator is capable of 7 Km/s which is good enough to get to LEO. Additional note, John? Hunter at Livermore is using a scaled-up two-stage light gas gun to get projectiles up to high velocities to put payloads into LEO, but the drawback to this method is high g loading of the payload (>50,000 g's). The ram accelerator has the ability to "soft launch" projectiles (meaning peak g loading under 10,000 g's) theoretically and is one of it's major advantages over other technologies. The advantage of the light gas gun is that it is simple technolgy that is just scaled up in size. The disadvantage of scaling up a light gas gun is that it suffers from the "squared-cubed" law of scaling and hence does not scale well. Recently Hunter's group was given a set back when their breech or pump tube ruptured when the pressure inside it rose too high from unexpectedly rapid combustion. He is rebuilding though. John Hinkey Research Assistant Ram Accelerator Research Program Univ. of Washington Seattle, WA ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 93 00:38:25 GMT From: John Hinkey Subject: Guns for Space Newsgroups: sci.space >One of the National Labs, Livermore, sandia????? is futzing >with a light gas gun. Rapidly compress hydrogen, then light it off. >the projectile is in vacuum until it blows a diagphram off the >end of the muzzle. >It's just a research prototype. >pat Sorry Pat , the hydrogen is just compressed and is never combusted. John Hinkey University of Washington Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1993 20:27:47 GMT From: "Robert J. Niland" Subject: Omnimax Newsgroups: sci.astro,sci.space kipf7064@mach1.wlu.ca (Dave Kipfer u) writes: : Now, is my guess that the same company : who built IMAX also built OMNIMAX as well correct? True. Both are works of the IMAX corp (formerly Threshold). Both IMAX and OMNI are 70mm 15-perf 24 fps processes, run horizontally thru the 65mm camera and 70mm projector. The IMAX prints are "flat" and the OMNI prints are corrected for projection on a dome screen. There are also 3D, HD (48 fps) and other subvarieties. Regards, 1001-A East Harmony Road Bob Niland Suite 503 Internet: rjn@csn.org Fort Collins CO 80525 CompuServe: 71044,2124 (303) 223-5209 ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 93 23:02:14 GMT From: Brenda Kalt Subject: Small Astronaut (was: Budget Astronaut) Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993Mar30.054935.19478@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>, fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes: <> |> Definitely possible: George is 6'2" and insists that any project |> he works on be large enough to, in theory, fit himself. You could |> probably cut the mass of his manned Pegasus capsule by 5% to 10%, |> just by insisting on a 5'0" astronaut... |> |> Frank Crary |> CU Boulder |> I've wondered about this for a long time. For space missions lasting months or years, wouldn't it be more efficient to use small astronauts? The beds and other equipment can be smaller or, in the case of off-the-shelf equipment, the astronauts would get less claustrophobic. Food requirements would be less (somebody help me out on this). Anything in space flight that now requires classical human muscle could be done by a machine. The limiting factor (for colony flights!) would probably be the size at which a woman can deliver a baby without complications. Large astronauts seem to come from (1) SF magazines that wanted heroic types and (2) current pilot-training requirements, which evolved from the military. Neither of those reasons is carved in stone. B. Kalt sasbck@unx.sas.com "Someday a .sig will live here." ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 93 21:10:08 GMT From: Henry Spencer Subject: Space Research Spin Off Newsgroups: sci.space In article stephens@geod.emr.ca (Dave Stephenson) writes: >Sorry, slipped up on the name of the ship of Capt. Cook's first voyage. >Before I get corrected from OZ, his ship was the Endeavor. Appologies! Nope. Want to try for third time lucky? :-) It's spelled "Endeavour". -- All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology - Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1993 21:17:50 GMT From: "Matthew R. Feulner" Subject: Space Station Aldrin Newsgroups: sci.space This is a summary of a Feb 15 article in the New York Times. From the MIT Tech Talk: Edwin E. (Buzz) Aldrin Jr., the MIT alumnus (ScD, 1963) who walked on the moon as an astronaut in 1969, has received a patent for a permanent space station he designed in his office at home. The New York Times (Feb 15) reported that Dr. Aldrin, who went to the moon with Neil Armstrong on the Apollo 11 mission, wants his space station to be the core of a "complete family of spacecraft that support it." The story continued: "Mr. Aldrin's design, though large enough for a crew of 8 to 10 astronauts, can be launched in one piece and then unfolded in space." Because it would rely on a large rocket like the Saturn 5, which the US no longer uses, he hopes for eventual cooperation with the Russian space program, which still has a powerful rocket capable of putting a heavy payload into space. Matt matthew_feulner@qmlink.draper.com ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 93 20:50:47 GMT From: Henry Spencer Subject: Status of U.S./Soviet Cooperation Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1pc75eINN7a9@phantom.gatech.edu> matthew@phantom.gatech.edu (Matthew DeLuca) writes: >>"Let's wait and see" is a mistake; we should start small, to make it >>clear that we aren't yet happy, but we should start now. > >The problem with the idea of Western aid saving the Russians is that any amount >that is politically viable in the West is going to be far too small to have >any effect... Matthew, you missed the entire point of my posting. Please go read it again. I'm not suggesting that these relatively small initial ventures will, by themselves, make a big difference to the Russian economy. Ultimately, the Russians are going to have to sort most of it out themselves. That will not be easy. Holding a political consensus together long enough to do it will not be easy either. The West can contribute far more in hope and incentive -- things to look forward to if people sweat and struggle for a few years -- than it can in money. But vague mumblings from the White House or Brussels, or vague half-disbelieved notions of how the West lives, are not enough. As a non-space example, the single biggest thing the European Common Market could do to help the ex-satellite nations, and even the CIS states themselves, would not involve a single penny of cross-border cash flow: far more valuable than any form of direct aid would be a firm commitment to a specific set of unambiguous requirements for allowing those nations into the Common Market. The aim of cooperative ventures in the near future should not be to prop up the Russian economy, but to establish the possibility of more ("we *are* willing to cut real deals, not just charity") and to make it clear how that would happen ("but you're going to have to fix this, this, and this first"). -- All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology - Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 93 22:37:16 GMT From: "G. Patrick Molloy" Subject: STS-1 DISASTER/COVERUP (and mcelwaine) Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993Mar30.220636.6618@wkuvx1.bitnet>, cabanc@wkuvx1.bitnet writes: > In article <1993Mar30.142832.17044@den.mmc.com>, seale@possum.den.mmc.com (Eric > H Seale) writes: > > (About the Beter tape) > > > How do we get this bone-head turned off so that we don't waste so d**n > > much bandwidth on "Dr. Peter Beter" and his drivel? > > > > Eric > The physics newsgroup suggest ignoring, him. Otherwise use > your kill file. > (Who's this Beter guy anyway that I'm supposed believe?) Actually, I thought this article belonged in one of the rec.sf.* groups :-) It was actually pretty funny, if not for the pathetic fact that there are people out there who believe this kind of garbage. > > Candi Cabaniss > Western Kentucky University CABANC@WKUVX1.bitnet > (now that we haven't won NCAA basketball, they'll finally get rid of > the football team) Sounds good! Although I don't quite follow the logic, as a WKU alumnus I think the football program is pretty worthless. If they MUST have a sports program, concentrate on basketball. G. Patrick Molloy Huntsville, Alabama ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 93 21:00:09 GMT From: Henry Spencer Subject: the call to space (was Re: Clueless Szaboisms ) Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1pcge0$dua@access.digex.com> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes: >Are canadian exports of Radio-nucliedes, also controlled by US >rules. Technology export controls, that sort of thing? The relevant export rules are set in Ottawa, not in Washington. However, with occasional exceptions (e.g. trade with Cuba, where Canada didn't share the US's hysterical reaction to Castro), Canadian export rules tend to be pretty similar to US ones. It is also possible for US rules to apply to Canadian exports because there is significant US content in the product being exported, and the export of those bits to Canada was conditional on any re-export complying with US rules. (This sort of thing is why the US has such clout in the question of who is allowed to launch Western commercial satellites -- it's rare to find such a bird that lacks significant US technology.) -- All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology - Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 93 22:20:34 GMT From: Ron Baalke Subject: TOPEX Observes Giant Waves from Storm of the Century Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.geo.meteorology Brian Dunbar Headquarters, Washington, D.C. March 31, 1993 (Phone: 202/358-0873) Mary A. Hardin Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. (Phone: 818/354-5011) TOPEX/POSEIDON OBSERVES GIANT WAVES IN STORM OF THE CENTURY As the "storm of the century" hit the eastern part of the United States on March 14, giant waves measuring up to approximately 40 feet (12 meters) high were observed in the North Atlantic by the U.S.-French TOPEX/POSEIDON satellite. The highest waves measured by the radar altimeter onboard the satellite were observed halfway between the United States and Europe at the latitude of New York City - approximately 41 degrees North. Strong winds of 45 miles per hour (20 meters per second) also were recorded in the high waves vicinity. "The TOPEX/POSEIDON mission studies the dynamics of the world's ocean currents by measuring the shape of the sea surface using a radar altimeter," said Dr. Lee Fu, Project Scientist at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. "The height of the waves and the speed of the wind over the ocean also are measured by the radar as byproducts of the mission," he continued. Measuring sea level allows oceanographers to study changes in ocean currents and global circulation and to determine how those changing currents affect world climate. In related activities, scientists at the Naval Research Laboratory in Mississippi report that their recent analysis of TOPEX/POSEIDON data, as well as measurement taken by tide gauges and buoys confirms that the Kelvin wave pulse that they predicted in February has arrived at the South American coast as they anticipated. A Kelvin wave is a large warm water mass that moves along the equator in the Pacific Ocean. These pulses sometimes contribute to El Nino conditions in the eastern equatorial Pacific. JPL manages the NASA portion of the TOPEX/POSEIDON mission for NASA's Office of Mission to Planet Earth. Launched Aug. 10, 1992 from Kourou, French Guiana, TOPEX/POSEIDON is the second satellite in the Mission to Planet Earth Program, NASA's long-term effort to study Earth as a global environmental system. -end- ___ _____ ___ /_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Ron Baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov | | | | __ \ /| | | | Jet Propulsion Lab | ___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ M/S 525-3684 Telos | Don't ever take a fence /___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | down until you know the |_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | reason it was put up. ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 93 20:05:29 GMT From: Henry Spencer Subject: Why is Venus so hot? Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993Mar30.055911.21035@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes: >>To make Venus habitable, we really have to get *rid* of most of the >>atmosphere somehow. It's a hard problem... > >I assume someone earlier in the discussion showed that 100 atm. >pressurized domes/structures weren't feasable. But what about a >combination? If you raise the internal pressure to 50 atm, the >structural requirements become reasonable... If you're going to have to live inside domes -- especially such massive ones -- it is a whole lot simpler to do it on the Moon or Mars. There is little point to large-scale meddling with Venus unless it can be made rather more attractive than that. -- All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology - Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 1993 20:34:37 GMT From: "R. S. Statsinger" Subject: WORKSHOP: SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGIES FOR SATELLITE AUTONOMY Newsgroups: comp.ai,comp.misc,sci.space,sci.aeronautics WORKSHOP ON SOFTWARE FOR SATELLITE AUTONOMY ALBUQUERQUE, NM JUNE 22-25, 1993 The American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA) is sponsoring a workshop on software technologies for satellite autonomy with support by the Air Force Phillips Laboratory. The purpose of the workshop is to gather information and facilitate communication amongst industry and other government organizations regarding candidate technologies which may have applicability in the development of increasingly autonomous spacecraft. It is anticipated that the workshop will develop a roadmap which will include objectives, goals, and timelines for further government/industry efforts in satellite autonomy. It is further hoped that a baseline will be established for future cooperative government/industry research efforts to increase spacecraft autonomy in areas such as navigation, health and status monitoring, anomaly resolution, and threat assessment/response. A small registration fee (approximately $100) will be asked. POSITION PAPER SUBMISSION: Workshop attendance will be based on position paper submissions. Interested participants should submit a short paper (not to exceed 1000 words) describing their position and interests regarding software technologies applicable to spacecraft autonomy. Position papers should include no proprietary or classified information and should be suitable for publication in the proceedings with permission to print. Some participants will be chosen to present their positions at the workshop. Interested parties should submit their position papers no later than 30 April 1993 to: Paul Zetocha Phillips Laboratories 3550 Aberdeen Avenue SE Kirtland AFB, NM 87117-5776 Email: zetocha@plk.af.mil FAX: (505) 846-2290 Selection notifications will be sent by 12 May 1993. For additional information contact Paul Zetocha or Christine Anderson at (505) 846-6053/0461, or reply to this article via email (robert@aero.org). -- Don't even IMAGINE that these opinions have anything to do | Honk with those of my employers, my customers, my Aunt Aileen, or | if you'd any other persons or organizations real or imagined; or past, | like to help present, or future; or living, dead, or not yet conceived. OK?| kill Barney ------------------------------ From: "Phil G. Fraering" Newsgroups: sci.space,talk.politics.space Subject: Re: Luddites in space Message-Id: Date: 31 Mar 93 22:50:00 GMT Article-I.D.: srl03.pgf.733618200 References: <1993Mar19.182702.15427@mksol.dseg.ti.com> <1993Mar25.204904.4885@mksol.dseg.ti.com> <1oveeu$hqk@access.digex.com> <1993Mar31.181516.1068@mksol.dseg.ti.com> Sender: Anonymous NNTP Posting Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana Lines: 35 Source-Info: Sender is really news@CRABAPPLE.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU Source-Info: Sender is really isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes: >>Pat: >> Who didn't bother, because i already know the field. >Famous last words. I'm curious, though, Pat. How would you feel if >your doctor told you that he/she "didn't bother" with medical school >because they "already knew the field" or that the flight control >software for the airplane you were riding in was designed and built by >someone who "didn't bother" with training to learn about software >engineering because they "already knew the field"? >Hmmm, maybe this explains some things? :-) I think a lot of the economics going around these days is at the equivalent level that medicine was in when it was unneccesary for a medical student (who were the _medical professionals_ as opposed to midwives given the job) to wash his hand between disecting the corpse of a leper and assisting a woman in labor (although I wonder: was he just there to make sure the kid caught something and died, before he moved on to the next patient? I mean, what good could he do, compared to the bad he was doing? The Nineteenth century in Europe, because of this practice, had an abnormally high infant mortality rate). Getting back to economics, many people in both parties seem to be operating at the level of the "broken window" fallacy, or worse. >Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me. -- Phil Fraering |"...drag them, kicking and screaming, pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|into the Century of the Fruitbat." - Terry Pratchett, _Reaper Man_ ------------------------------ End of Space Digest Volume 16 : Issue 399 ------------------------------