Date: Sun, 28 Mar 93 05:05:36 From: Space Digest maintainer Reply-To: Space-request@isu.isunet.edu Subject: Space Digest V16 #379 To: Space Digest Readers Precedence: bulk Space Digest Sun, 28 Mar 93 Volume 16 : Issue 379 Today's Topics: 25 kg. to Venus, how much would it cost? Alumnium was available in Elizabethan times? Alyeska in Space, Corps in Space. Color temp. of sun and earth from moon. Coral and Dyson Sphere.. Delta II Launch/Teather... Flight time comparison: Voyager vs. Gallileo Gravity waves, was: Predicting gravity wave quantization & Cosmic Noise (3 msgs) Magellan Update - 03/22/93 Mexican Space Program? More on Start SLV Orbital Skysurfing Club/DTO... Russia's OPERATIONAL Starwars Defense System Speculation: the extension of TCP/IP and DNS into large light lag enviroments the call to space (was Re: Clueless Szaboisms ) (2 msgs) Timid Terraformers (was Re: How to cool Venus) Uplink/downlink rates Venus, timid terraform. Why is Venus so hot? Welcome to the Space Digest!! Please send your messages to "space@isu.isunet.edu", and (un)subscription requests of the form "Subscribe Space " to one of these addresses: listserv@uga (BITNET), rice::boyle (SPAN/NSInet), utadnx::utspan::rice::boyle (THENET), or space-REQUEST@isu.isunet.edu (Internet). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Mar 1993 21:41:23 GMT From: George William Herbert Subject: 25 kg. to Venus, how much would it cost? Newsgroups: sci.space In article henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes: >For maybe $15M you can get Pegasus plus a spin-stabilized kick motor, >which will give you about 75kg to Earth escape; with *another* kick >stage that might get you to Venus. It will be tricky, because you >absolutely must be able to do mid-course corrections -- solid kick >motors are not very precise -- and you don't have much mass to spare. I've got plans lying around (somewhere...) for a kick stage based on the French 6 ton thrust hypergolic motor (neat motor, btw, ceramic chamber and nozzle increase heat and decrease cooling propellant losses...) which will throw a 25 kg payload to Mars off a standard Pegasus. Since it's liquid fueled it's got pretty precise injection, and I was able to fit about 50 m/s more delta-V on board in little thrusters for midcourse burns. [which came about after one of the "stupid minirover" presentations at ISU this last summer, but I digress 8-) ] I don't remember the delta-V to Venus offhand, but if it's comperable then you can do it off a Pegasus. Cost, well, development cost for the stage will probably be tens of millions, but flight costs should be on the order of $5 million, so a Pegasus at $12M plus the stage makes $17 million, more if you have to pay development (or amortize it over some launches... which you really should do). -george william herbert Retro Aerospace ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1993 19:36:37 GMT From: INNES MATTHEW Subject: Alumnium was available in Elizabethan times? Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.materials In article <1526@taniwha.UUCP> paul@taniwha.UUCP (Paul Campbell) writes: >Ahem .... "Aluminum" is the name used by people in the US, "Aluminium" is >the proper chemical name and the name used (and pronounced) by everyone >else in the world. Aluminum is just one of those quaint things about the US >(like inches and writing the date backwards). > > Paul Interesting. I've always understood that "Aluminium" was a purely British pronounciation (note that I am not in the USA), and that "Aluminum" was in fact the proper word. Followup to email or alt.usage.english. Let's not clutter the place up with non-space-junk. -- Matt Innes ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1993 19:52:59 GMT From: nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu Subject: Alyeska in Space, Corps in Space. Newsgroups: sci.space Here is an interesting idea of how to get commerical interests into space.. Everyone has heard of the Alaska Pipeline? Well part of how it all works (in most part that is) is that there is Alyeska (its a holding company (I think this is the right word)), which basically acts as a front corp for other companies, namely Arco, Exxon, BP, Union, Standard and such.. Basically acting as a company to get the money, regulate and handle construction and maintenance of the pipeline.. Maybe the major companies in the US and world can do the same.. Maybe use the space Alyeska as a was to build a space station or a space colony (on mars more than likely), kind of like the one in "Total Recall".. A Alyeska that spreads the profits amongst the member companies and recieve R&D and such from the member companies.. == Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked Hope everyone understands... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 93 22:08:09 GMT From: Wyatt Miler Subject: Color temp. of sun and earth from moon. Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro I am looking for information on the color temp. and intensity of the sun and earth as seen from the pole of the moon. I need the data across the entire rise and setting of the sun and moon for a project I am working on for a video class. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, - Wyatt - Internet: wmiler@nyx.cs.du.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1993 19:40:23 GMT From: nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu Subject: Coral and Dyson Sphere.. Newsgroups: sci.space So I am wierd.. I once had an idea on how to create a dyson (sp, or dysean?) Sphere, using a genetically engineered animal similar to a coral.. Namely using a selection of coral and other contructs to construct the sphere (the growth of the coral would have to be speeded up thou), one group to collect and convert the base materials, the others group to build it.. Now to figure out how it would be able to hanbdle space and it might work sometime in the future.. A sphere or a Ringworld base structure is more like it, not sure how to do the rest.. But Im sure someone can figure this out.. How to get the coral to build the "reef" in the shape wanted?? == Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 93 14:46:10 EST From: waterman@titan.ksc.nasa.gov Subject: Delta II Launch/Teather... Newsgroups: sci.space >Message-ID: <44263140c@ofa123.fidonet.org> >From: David.Anderman@ofa123.fidonet.org >Date: 26 Mar 93 09:28:52 >So what did happen with the tethered satellite that was to have been launched >on March 18 by a Delta II from the Cape? It is still inside the Delta II Rocket which is sitting on the Pad. It is currently scheduled for launch Sunday March 28, 1993 10:13 to 10:41 pm EST. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Waterman / NASA Space Shuttle Main Engine Avionics waterman@titan.ksc.nasa.gov Disclaimer: This is NOT an Official NASA statement...I'm Just an Engineer ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 93 15:50:25 GMT From: "Lowell O Specht Jr." Subject: Flight time comparison: Voyager vs. Gallileo Newsgroups: sci.space prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes: >Actually, Henry mentioned to me, that the T4 schroud is >big enough to hold the Centaur, so something like >Pluto Fast Flyby, could use a T4-Centaur, with a >second centaur under the shroud, and maybe a small solid kick motor >also. WRONG! The General Dynamics Centaur use by the Titan IV ELV weighs approximately 55000 lbs when loaded with fuel. There is NO WAY that a Titan IV could lift TWO Centaurs much less a small solid kick motor and a probe on top of that. In addition, The first centaur is already included in the shroud. The shroud or payload fairing bolts on to the top of the same skirt that the centaur is mounted on. -- Regards, Lowell ****************************************************************************** * Lowell Specht * * * Marietta, GA USA * * * home: specht@dixie.com * Go Big Orange! * * work: g584741@loads1.lasc.lockheed.com * * ****************************************************************************** * My comments are my own and not my employer's. * ****************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Cameron Randale Bass Subject: Gravity waves, was: Predicting gravity wave quantization & Cosmic Noise Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,sci.physics,alt.sci.planetary Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1993 17:12:34 GMT Lines: 14 Source-Info: Sender is really news@CRABAPPLE.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU Source-Info: Sender is really isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU In article <1993Mar27.100131.12391@samba.oit.unc.edu> Bruce.Scott@launchpad.unc.edu (Bruce Scott) writes: [Tom's stuff deleted in the interests of unfairly making the statement below seem more general than was probably intended] >The first sentence is incorrect. "Existence" is undefined unless it is >synonymous with "observable" in physics. We cannot observe more than >the four dimensions we know about. Dong .... Dong .... Dong .... Do I hear the death-knell of string theory? dale bass ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1993 16:40:51 GMT From: Cameron Randale Bass Subject: Gravity waves, was: Predicting gravity wave quantization & Cosmic Noise Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,sci.physics,alt.sci.planetary In article hrubin@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes: >In article crb7q@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Cameron Randale Bass) writes: >>In article nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines) writes: > >>>The curvature in which we're interested is thus a property of the >>>surface (or space) itself, and does not require the concept of an >>>`embedding space.' Since we can never observe such a space, why >>>suggest it exists? It's not required by our theory, it's no part of >>>our description of the universe, and is thoroughly bogus. > >>>Should this go in the FAQ? > >> No. There is no intrinsic reason we should restrict inquiry to the >> "ant's eye view". If it is useful to embed the space in another, >> we should go right ahead. > >> "Existence" is a rather tenuous concept in this context. Do >> complex numbers "exist"? How about tensors? How about the >> "space" itself. Why do you think physical space is some sort >> of local manifold describable by our mathematics? > >We cannot always embed a "curved" space in a flat Euclidean space >isometrically. One way of looking at the conditions is that the >squares of the distances between points forms a matrix of finite >rank, and even a little more is needed. Even embedding a sphere >in the Euclidean space of one more dimension changes distances; >the distance ON THE SPHERE between antipodes in pi*r, whereas in >the Euclidean space the diameter is of length 2*r. On the other >hand, it can be embedded topologically in a space of enough more >dimensions. I was under the impression we were talking generally about embedding 4-space in higher dimensional spaces. However, I was talking specifically about the restriction of physical inquiry to local analysis in 4-space. >As to "our" mathematics and the existence of mathematical constructs, >there is nothing in mathematics which derives from the physical universe, >although that universe may to some extent direct where we look. The >existence and uniqueness, apart from isomorphism (it is impossible to >tell them apart) of the complex numbers is as nothing to a mathematician. >Tensor spaces are a little harder. Mathematics, as such, has nothing >directly to do with the real world. The context was physical description using mathematics. Existence was being used in a very loose intuitive sense; that's the reason the word was surrounded by quotation marks. The thrust of my remarks was to question the assertion that we are restricted to a certain class of models because they 'exist' in some very loose physical sense. I was questioning what 'existence' meant in this context. >However, the statement that our physical space is as you have described >it is not mathematics at all, but physics. To the extent that the >statement is accurate, mathematical results can be used to tell us >something about the real world. The point was that there was no reason to restrict our our viewpoint to a strictly local description, and if we gain insight from embedding a space in a higher dimensional space, then we should go ahead. It's a troubling FAQ answer that would imply unnecessary restriction on inquiry. As far as physics goes, I would assert that the description of spacetime as a GR manifold in this manner is improper at certain scales. So, where does the mathematics end and the physics begin? At what point does the energy-momentum tensor become 'real'? And do particles 'actually' evaluate the energy-momentum tensor while flying around? The point is that we never directly 'observe' large portions (or maybe any) of the mathematical machinery we use to make physical predictions. So, claiming that we are forbidden in principle to take the problem to a global analysis in higher dimensions because we can only 'physically see' the problem locally seems silly. I was also trying to make a little joke with 'intrinsic' giving everyone a wonderful straight line. However, that appears to have fallen into the black hole of comedy. dale bass ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1993 20:57:49 GMT From: Bruce Scott Subject: Gravity waves, was: Predicting gravity wave quantization & Cosmic Noise Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,sci.physics,alt.sci.planetary crb7q@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Cameron Randale Bass) writes: >[I had written...] >> [...] "Existence" is undefined unless it is >>synonymous with "observable" in physics. We cannot observe more than >>the four dimensions we know about. > > Dong .... Dong .... Dong .... > > Do I hear the death-knell of string theory? I'll stick to the four-space we have measured, and ignore the flights of fancy of out-of-touch theorists. I'll get interested in this kind of stuff when it is mathematically rigorous, as the loop-variable school is diligently trying to do with their stuff. :-) Gruss, Dr Bruce Scott The deadliest bullshit is Max-Planck-Institut fuer Plasmaphysik odorless and transparent bds at spl6n1.aug.ipp-garching.mpg.de -- W Gibson -- The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service. internet: laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80 ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 1993 13:32:22 -0500 From: Pat Subject: Magellan Update - 03/22/93 Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary I would guess, then that based upon what I have read, some sort of mixed mode science mission could be conducted. Surface scattering/de-polarization studies do seem to be a better science mission with allocated money, with a damaged space-craft. Maybe, while this was going on, they could image some of hte bigger gaps and ship that back with the engineering data. Only some very small segmetns could be returned, but if the money could be found, and it could be tacked into a surface studies experiment, why not? pat ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 93 19:01:24 GMT From: nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu Subject: Mexican Space Program? Newsgroups: sci.space Is there any info on a mexican space program? Now with the trade agreement will there be a space agreement (if not already in effect) between the US, Canada, and Mexico? == Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 93 09:58:03 PST From: thomsonal@cpva.saic.com Subject: More on Start SLV Newsgroups: sci.space I did a little more research on the Russians' Start SLV, and came up with the following. "A mobile launcher and missile, based on SS-20 IRBM experience, has been proposed by the Soviet Technopribor organization in conjunction with its direction to investigate methods of converting from defense to commercial production. Aimed at potential customers requiring low mass, low cost payloads in LEO, the launch system, named START, could be developed in only four years with ten test launches. [Comment: the SS-25 is basically an SS-20 with a third stage and single RV instead of a PBV and three RVs.] "A complete production run of 300 launch vehicles (150 for Soviet use, 150 for sale abroad) could be accomplished in 10 years. The launcher would be transportable, permitting launches virtually anywhere in the world. The U.S. firm of Space Commerce Corporation signed a memorandum of understanding with Technopribor on 29 July 1989 to investigate further the technical and marketing feasibility of the concept." [Accompanying figure shows sketch of a START being launched from a 7-axle TEL.] The Soviet Year in Space, 1989 by Nicholas Johnson Teledyne Brown Engineering, Colorado Springs, 1990 "Development of the Start 1 satellite launcher has won funding from Russia's IVK commercial joint-stock company. "Start 1, to be built by the Kompleks technical centre for transportable launchers, will be able to lift off from anywhere in the world into a variety of low Earth orbits, with payloads of between 350kg and 500kg. After a demonstration flight, the launcher will compete in international markets, offering further competition for US small satellite launchers and at lower prices." Flight International, June 30, 1992, p. 18 [Excerpts] Note that the 1.1 ton (presumably 1 metric ton) figure for the payload mass quoted in the AP story posted earlier is considerably greater than the number the Flight International story gives. Early orbital elements for the satellite, 1993 14A (NORAD catalog 22561) and the Start upper stage (NORAD 22562) are: 1 22561U 93 14 A 93 85.31764676 -.00064732 00000-0 -25602-1 0 45 2 22561 75.7643 33.2113 0199082 97.6221 264.6772 14.19597660 113 1 22562U 93 14 B 93 85.31470950 -.00049311 00000-0 -18230-1 0 40 2 22562 75.7658 33.2158 0173498 98.4910 263.6018 14.25060020 110 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1993 19:44:39 GMT From: nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu Subject: Orbital Skysurfing Club/DTO... Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1318@heimdall.sdrc.com>, spfind@sgidq7.sdrc.com (jeff findley) writes: > In article <1993Mar25.104726.1@aurora.alaska.edu>, nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes: > |> Anyone want to start a Skysurfing Club, > /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ > I think this guy has been watching a cartoons a LITTLE bit too much. > Disney's Tailspin is not a very good engineering reference :-). > > |> I know its a little bit easrly for > |> this, but this is a Development Test Objective idea club/think tank idea.. Who > |> wants to be Club President or Email contact site?? > |> > |> == > |> Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked > > Jeff > > -- > +---------------------------------+------------------------------------------+ > | Jeff Findley, SDRC | This is a test of the .signature system. | > | Cincinnati, OH | Remember, this is only a test. | > | e-mail: jeff.findley@sdrc.com | All opinions above are my own, I think. | > +---------------------------------+------------------------------------------+ No played Traveller to many times.. So Jeff if you have nothing to add to the discussion, then keep your mouth shut.. I am serious about this idea, more for a future idea, but still its an interesting fun idea.. One of the basic ideas to be used is an asbestos "surfboard" and a man/woman in a space suit.. Some form of manuvering jets and away we go, now to get into orbit.. == Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 1993 14:47:50 -0500 From: Pat Subject: Russia's OPERATIONAL Starwars Defense System Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993Mar25.190041.850@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes: |In <1993Mar24.154802.5198@cnsvax.uwec.edu> mcelwre@cnsvax.uwec.edu writes: |> RUSSIA'S OPERATIONAL STARWARS DEFENSE SYSTEM |I am *really* starting to wonder about the academic reputation of this |school, what with Mr McElwaine claiming to have a BS in Physics and |Astronomy from it. Can anyone who's had any sort of real education |actually believe the manure he innundates the net with? Can't anyone There are numerous people in Net-Land who are in serious need of Psycho-Pharmaceuticals. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 1993 17:39:52 GMT From: "M. Sean Bennett" Subject: Speculation: the extension of TCP/IP and DNS into large light lag enviroments Newsgroups: alt.internet.services,sci.space >Why is it a dangerous precedent? Should NASA or the CIS be building bases >that aren't under any jurisdiction? It is my fault for not making myself clearer. The Moon, Mars, etc. are "claimed for all mankind". The dangerous precedent is the exporting of our national bigotries - irespective of the nation involved. What is this COPOUS treaty you speak of? Sean ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 1993 13:22:36 -0500 From: Pat Subject: the call to space (was Re: Clueless Szaboisms ) Newsgroups: sci.space Will blats about how japan is going to rise again on a nuclear phoenix. Please document the ROI for Nuclear Power, once all costs have been allocated. pat ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1993 18:06:40 -0600 From: "Phil G. Fraering" Subject: the call to space (was Re: Clueless Szaboisms ) Newsgroups: sci.space,talk.politics.space In sci.space you write: >In article <1ot012$g32@access.digex.com>, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes: >> >> Nuclear Power proved to be a technological rathole. >> > This is not correct. Alot of knowledge and technology came out of >all of this. Also, you may note that I am in Japan = First hand knowledge. >While America is destroying the Nuclear Power Industry. Japan is building >their up. I know what you Americans watch on Televesion, Aniti-Nuclear >movements in Japan, etc... What you do not understand is that these are all >government controlled agencys and the Anti-Nuclear stance is not against Japan >but the rest of the world. The Japanese as a result have been very good at >getting American (**Suckers**) to help them. Now with Clinton you get the >final results. HA HA HA, Jokes on you. > The nuclear wastes you are trying to get rid of are the oil of the >future. > Will... Hi Will! How's the new kid? I'm not really sure there _is_ such stuff as nuclear waste, just not yet recycled nuclear fuel... Of course, in the oil industry, there is the problem of naturally occuring nuclear materials that contaminate drill pipe and other equipment... there _is_ a problem. BUT due to the fact that the state governor's son-in-law owns the only legal _storage_ site (it's a storage site, not a dump site: you have to pay, year after year, for the stuff there) for the stuff, the Louisiana Dept. of Enviornmental Quality is out there looking at the stuff with precision instruments for anything above background... Come to think of it, if nuclear waste is a relevant topic for sci.space, then this should be too... I think I'll post this as well as mail. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1993 22:45:13 GMT From: Jeff Bytof Subject: Timid Terraformers (was Re: How to cool Venus) Newsgroups: sci.space In article <93085.002514GRV101@psuvm.psu.edu> Callec Dradja writes: >My proposal, I feel, makes more sense in that it is slower and more >managible. I propose using organisms to fix the CO2 into a solid form. >Someone suggested carbonate rocks which sound like a good idea to me. I like that. Perhaps develop enzymes that will convert CO2 and various other gases absorbed into an organism into fullerenes and "caged molecules". Maybe even have the enzymes sort the gases that go inside the buckyballs! Then the filled buckyballs are excreted and eventually drift down to the surface of Venus? I don't know what the stability of buckyballs at Venusian surface temperatures are. Haven't fullerenes been discovered in rock deposits and by radio astronomers? -rabjab ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 1993 18:45:14 GMT From: "Kevin W. Plaxco" Subject: Uplink/downlink rates Newsgroups: sci.space We've heard lot's of talk about the crippled downlink rate, but what does loss of the High gain antenna mean for Galileo's uplink rate? How does this effect the mission profile? ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 93 19:16:19 GMT From: nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu Subject: Venus, timid terraform. Newsgroups: sci.space Sounds liek what is needed to get rid of the problems venus has for human life is to identify what is there and ways to change it.. Is there a micro that can be planted in the Venusian atmosphere to start the process of converting the upper atmosphere to what we need to at least a more manageable compositionthat can then be changed via some means into a more earthlike atmosphere.. I think what is needed is a plan, namely to start with the upper atmosphere and work our way down the gravity well and find ways to change the atmosphere to something that humans can use, maybe not totally earthlike but nearly so.. Any good plans on how to terraform venus.. == Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 1993 19:25:38 GMT From: Aaron Ray Clements Subject: Why is Venus so hot? Newsgroups: sci.space nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes: >Seems the way to cool venus down is basically to find some way to burn off the >Sulfar and all the nasty gases and turn down the green house effect.. >Okay find a microbe to convert the CO2 and other gases for greenhouse into >oxygen and other gases.. >Oxygen and try to find some way to attract more hydrogen or some way to make >water (not sure how??).. Im not a technical person but.. I think I have some >interesting ideas.. >So here is a good question, why is venus so hot? the gasses known and such and >the effects and such?? We need why so that we can attack the reasons why and >defeat them or neutralize them... Now what is the parameters for a "normal >planet" basically so we have something to know how to work towards?? >== >Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked The sulfur has already been "burned" and is in the atmosphere primarily in the form of sulfur oxides and sulfuric acid. The reason behind the Venusian temperature is a runaway greenhouse effect. The thermodynamic (black-body) equilibrium temperature for a body with Venusian albedo at its orbital distance is actually lower than Earth's black-body equilibrium temperature. However, the Venusian atmosphere is _much_ more optically thick than Earth's. It's kind of like a Roach Motel for solar energy; the light can get in, but it can't get out . . . There's also a small problem in dealing with an atmosphere that has about a hundred times more pressure at the surface than at Earth. (Do you think you could live in a 100atm environment? :) ) aaron arc@cco.caltech.edu ------------------------------ End of Space Digest Volume 16 : Issue 379 ------------------------------