Date: Sun, 28 Mar 93 05:00:06 From: Space Digest maintainer Reply-To: Space-request@isu.isunet.edu Subject: Space Digest V16 #378 To: Space Digest Readers Precedence: bulk Space Digest Sun, 28 Mar 93 Volume 16 : Issue 378 Today's Topics: 25 kg. to Venus, how much would it cost? Flight time comparison: Voyager vs. Gallileo Gravity waves, was: Predicting gravity wave quantization & Cosmic Noise (2 msgs) How to cool Venus (3 msgs) Life in the Galaxy Magellan Update - 03/22/93 Omnimax Plans, absence therof Space Calendar - 03/27/93 Speculation: the extension of TCP/IP and DNS into large light lag enviroments SSF REdesign STS-55 (Columbia) abort (was Aurora?) (2 msgs) the call to space (was Re: Clueless Szaboisms ) UARS status? Venus is covered with water? What happened to CRAF? Welcome to the Space Digest!! Please send your messages to "space@isu.isunet.edu", and (un)subscription requests of the form "Subscribe Space " to one of these addresses: listserv@uga (BITNET), rice::boyle (SPAN/NSInet), utadnx::utspan::rice::boyle (THENET), or space-REQUEST@isu.isunet.edu (Internet). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1993 16:52:06 GMT From: Frank Crary Subject: 25 kg. to Venus, how much would it cost? Newsgroups: sci.space In article henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes: >Uh, Frank, what Scout specs are you reading? No Scout has ever been >able to carry 600kg into orbit; the Scout performance charts stop >at 270kg... The sort of specs that I assued are in kilos when they are actually in pounds... Sorry about that... Frank Crary CU Boulder ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 1993 03:46:35 -0500 From: Pat Subject: Flight time comparison: Voyager vs. Gallileo Newsgroups: sci.space Actually, Henry mentioned to me, that the T4 schroud is big enough to hold the Centaur, so something like Pluto Fast Flyby, could use a T4-Centaur, with a second centaur under the shroud, and maybe a small solid kick motor also. That would be velocity, city, only there isn't enough money to afford something like this. pat ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1993 10:01:31 GMT From: Bruce Scott Subject: Gravity waves, was: Predicting gravity wave quantization & Cosmic Noise Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,sci.physics,alt.sci.planetary Tom van Flandern wrote: > Curvature can only exist relative to something non-curved. In your > first example, both balloon dimensions are curved, so there must > exist a third spacial dimension for them to be curved in. In the > cone/cylinder example, only one of the two surface dimensions is > curved, so measuring circumference:diameter ratios is not a test for > curvature in a third dimension. The first sentence is incorrect. "Existence" is undefined unless it is synonymous with "observable" in physics. We cannot observe more than the four dimensions we know about. But curvature of the four-dimensional manifold of space-time is measurable through relative distances. For example, Weinberg asks in his GR and cosmology book whether "Middle Earth" is curved. He shows that if you know the distances between any pair from a set of four points on a two-dimensional surface (manifold) then you know all you need to completely determine the curvature tensor, provided of course that the manifold is an isotropic space. Generalise this to a set of events in space-time and the four-distances between them and you have a rigorus way to determine curvature, which holds even if more dimensions do not exist. Curvature is an *intrinsic* property. Gruss, Dr Bruce Scott The deadliest bullshit is Max-Planck-Institut fuer Plasmaphysik odorless and transparent bds at spl6n1.aug.ipp-garching.mpg.de -- W Gibson -- The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service. internet: laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1993 15:22:42 GMT From: Herman Rubin Subject: Gravity waves, was: Predicting gravity wave quantization & Cosmic Noise Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,sci.physics,alt.sci.planetary In article crb7q@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Cameron Randale Bass) writes: >In article nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines) writes: >>The curvature in which we're interested is thus a property of the >>surface (or space) itself, and does not require the concept of an >>`embedding space.' Since we can never observe such a space, why >>suggest it exists? It's not required by our theory, it's no part of >>our description of the universe, and is thoroughly bogus. >>Should this go in the FAQ? > No. There is no intrinsic reason we should restrict inquiry to the > "ant's eye view". If it is useful to embed the space in another, > we should go right ahead. > "Existence" is a rather tenuous concept in this context. Do > complex numbers "exist"? How about tensors? How about the > "space" itself. Why do you think physical space is some sort > of local manifold describable by our mathematics? We cannot always embed a "curved" space in a flat Euclidean space isometrically. One way of looking at the conditions is that the squares of the distances between points forms a matrix of finite rank, and even a little more is needed. Even embedding a sphere in the Euclidean space of one more dimension changes distances; the distance ON THE SPHERE between antipodes in pi*r, whereas in the Euclidean space the diameter is of length 2*r. On the other hand, it can be embedded topologically in a space of enough more dimensions. As to "our" mathematics and the existence of mathematical constructs, there is nothing in mathematics which derives from the physical universe, although that universe may to some extent direct where we look. The existence and uniqueness, apart from isomorphism (it is impossible to tell them apart) of the complex numbers is as nothing to a mathematician. Tensor spaces are a little harder. Mathematics, as such, has nothing directly to do with the real world. However, the statement that our physical space is as you have described it is not mathematics at all, but physics. To the extent that the statement is accurate, mathematical results can be used to tell us something about the real world. -- Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399 Phone: (317)494-6054 hrubin@snap.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet) {purdue,pur-ee}!snap.stat!hrubin(UUCP) ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 93 12:33:37 GMT From: Del Cotter Subject: How to cool Venus Newsgroups: sci.space <93085.004732GRV101@psuvm.psu.edu> GRV101@psuvm.psu.edu (Callec Dradja) writes: >, mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk (Del Cotter) says: > >I am curious, how did Dyson propose cooling Venus? > >Gregson Vaux Sunshade at the 1st Lagrange point, I think. That's how I'd do it. A sunshade is a disk at the point where the gravitational attractions of Sun and Venus are such that an object there will continue to orbit with the same period as Venus. S | U | venus N | Note that this is an unstable position, so you want an active control system to keep your shade there. The disk is spinning to stop the thin material collapsing into the plane of the ecliptic. There are ways to arrange for the disk to precess so that it is always face-on to Venus. A dust belt would pose problems. It would quickly collapse into a dust ring around the equator, producing next to no shade. If inclined, the ring will provide shade for at most half the planet at the solstices, , ... ', ..... ....... ....... ..... , ... ', and next to no shade at the equinoxes. ... ..... ....... ''''' ....... ''''' ..... ... Coarse dust will be a navigational hazard and fine dust will spiral into Venus due to photon pressure. BTW, Gregson, I'm against blowing Venus' atmosphere away with nukes, but not because we're short of oxygen. Roughly speaking, the outer 16km of the Earth's crust masses ~17e12 tonnes, of which Oxygen ~47% Silicon ~30% Aluminium ~8% Iron ~4% The inventory of Venus' crust is about the same, so we're not likely to run short just by removing the trivial fraction in the atmosphere. I'd rather import hydrogen, so that CO2 + 2H2 ---> C + 2H2O Voila, oceans! This reaction will, I think go forward but only very slowly, so it's still worthwhile looking for biological/industrial means to try to reduce all that nasty greenhouse gas in less than 20000 years. -- ',' ' ',',' | | ',' ' ',',' ', ,',' | Del Cotter mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk | ', ,',' ',' | | ',' ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 93 12:52:02 GMT From: Del Cotter Subject: How to cool Venus Newsgroups: sci.space In article mrw9e@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Michael Robert Williams) writes: >Some of the topics getting tossed back and forth are quite interesting; >I especially liked the idea of making it *snow* on Venus. Well, not snow, unfortunately; dry ice is unlikely to make such pretty flakes :-). Most of Venus' atmosphere would rain out as liquid CO2, making an ocean at about (from memory) 30'C and 5 bars pressure, before freezing as the temperature drops further. The 'ocean' would become progressively slushier rather than icing from the top down (since CO2, like most substances, has solid denser than liquid), while the remaining 5 bars would precipitate out. >But, to the point, several people have been talking about using large >nuclear bombs (should that be "tools"?) to blast a large fraction of Venus's >atmosphere away. I read a really fascinating book a few years back called >"The Physical Principles of Thermonuclear Explosive Devices" that had a >chapter called "On Creating Thermonuclear Explosives of Arbitrarily Large >Size." It seemed pretty easy, at least conceptually; the author even says >something about blowing most of the atmosphere of the Earth away with a >suprisingly small bomb. This is off the top of my head as I don't have references, but I think that (theoretical! :-) attempts to blow atmospheres off planets (by cometary impact) have shown that it was harder than previously thought. I /think/ this is because, even if you can get the atmosphere to escape from the planet's surface, it hangs around as a gas torus and most of it eventually recondenses. ICBW, of course. -- Fogg Engineering, Inc. - Prosperity Through Large Thermonuclear Devices -- ',' ' ',',' | | ',' ' ',',' ', ,',' | Del Cotter mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk | ', ,',' ',' | | ',' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1993 16:55:05 GMT From: Paul Dietz Subject: How to cool Venus Newsgroups: sci.space In article mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk (Del Cotter) writes: > This is off the top of my head as I don't have references, but I think that > (theoretical! :-) attempts to blow atmospheres off planets xd(by cometary > impact) have shown that it was harder than previously thought. I /think/ > this is because, even if you can get the atmosphere to escape from the > planet's surface, it hangs around as a gas torus and most of it eventually > recondenses. This actually came up in some email. It's an interesting and potentially serious problem (especially the effect of all that gas floating around the solar system). Venus's atmosphere has a mass around 5e20 kilograms. If spread into a torus with a major radius of 1e8 km and a minor radius of 5e6 km, the resulting cloud will have a density of about 10^-14 g/cc, or about 1/100 billionth of an atmosphere. The mean free path in the torus will be on the order of 10 km. Gas will eventually be pushed out of the solar system by the solar wind. The pressure of the solar wind is roughly 1e-9 N/m^2, so the time required to accelerate all the gas to 40 km/s will be around 100,000 years. The gas might also be disposed of by seeding it with small dust particles to exploit the Poynting-Robertson effect. Adding about .1% of the mass of the ring as .01 micron dust particles would cause it to become optically thick. If the dust particles efficiently transfer momentum to the gas, this would also lead to a decay time of about 100,000 years. But this could cause environmental problems for earth... Less time would be required if the gas torus could be more spread out; more time if it becomes condensed. Reaccretion onto the planet might be inhibited by an asymmetric ejection of gas from the planet; this would leave the gas torus with altered angular momentum and orbital kinetic energy. Inclining the torus relative to Venus's orbit and altering its major radius should be possible. The atmosphere could also be blown off the planet incrementally, by heating small parts (of size on the order of the "depth" of the atmosphere) to high temperature, rather than the entire atmosphere at once. This would reduce the density of the gas torus and limit both the reaccretion rate and the rate at which the ejected gas relaxed back into a torus or disk. Perhaps the best solution would be to use enough energy to eject the mass out of the solar system in the first place. This would best be done by ejecting off the leading hemisphere of the planet. The energy required would be about 3x that of ejecting the mass from Venus itself. Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1993 10:24:50 GMT From: Dan Tilque Subject: Life in the Galaxy Newsgroups: sci.space,alt.sci.planetary bafta@cats.ucsc.edu (Shari L Brooks) writes: > >In article PHARABOD@FRCPN11.IN2P3.FR writes: > >>From "Nature", Vol 362, 18 March 1993 (p. 204): > >> With these twin conditions, the authors estimate the size of >>habitable zones around various types of star (fortunately, Venus and Mars >>fall outside the limits for the Sun). > >why is this fortunate, somebody tell me. Well, because if Mars was in the habitable zone, we'd then have Martians. And we all know what Martians do, don't we? Invade the Earth. And even if the Martians get done in by Earth microbes (which they probably won't since they listen to the radio too), the invasion still would be a lot of hassle, especially in small towns in New Jersey. So it's just as well that Mars is not in the habitable zone. --- Dan Tilque -- dant@techbook.com ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 1993 06:43:10 GMT From: "Peter G. Ford" Subject: Magellan Update - 03/22/93 Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary In article <1p0bfh$m8m@access.digex.com> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes: >In article <1ovckaINN2kl@rave.larc.nasa.gov> S.D.Derry@LaRC.NASA.Gov writes: >>Eric H Seale (seale@possum.den.mmc.com) wrote: >>: say, 60 deg C). One option that I heard being talked about is called (I >>: think) bistatic radar -- Magellan transmits the radar which bounces off >>: the surface and is then received at Arecibo. Even with a low circular >>: orbit, I'm not sure that this buys you much, tho' ... > >Wow. What kind of power levels are we talking about? The gain >off Arecibo must be enormous, but then this will only work on certain >geometric areas. The target and arecibo need to be a equal-angle >triangle. I doubt one could see very much. The earth's rotation >would take Arecibo off point pretty fast, and given Arecibo is >mostly a passive reflector, i doubt it can slew electronically >it's pointing angle much. Arecibo can point up to about 18 degrees from the zenith. Of course, it doesn't move the 305-meter primary dish -- only the suspended carriage house containing the line-feed waveguide actually moves. If a target passes directly overhead, it can be observed for about 2.4 hours. The width of the S-band beam (12.6 cm wavelength) is about 1.4 minutes of arc (0.126/305 radians), which corresponds to many Venus radii at that range (0.4-1.6 AU.) However, SAR images are focused by echo delay and frequency shift, not by the receiving antenna, so the resolution of a bistatic image wouldn't be appreciably different from a monostatic one, provided there was sufficient signal to work with, but it would be difficult to merge with the existing images since smooth surfaces appear dark to monostatic side-looking radar, but bright in a bistatic mode. The bistatic measurements would be more useful in determining the physical properties of the surface, e.g. its roughness and reflectivity, similar to the results already obtained by the Magellan altimeter and radiometer, but at higher spatial resolution. Another interesting experiment would be to point the Magellan antenna toward the Venus surface and transmit with the telemetry transmitter. Although this wouldn't produce images, the telemetry is circularly polarized and, when received on Earth (it should be easily detectable by a DSN tracking station), the degree of depolarization would tell us a lot about the Venus surface. For instance, many highland areas possess very high radar reflectivities. Measurements from the linearly polarized Magellan radar and radiometer were unable to judge between several conflicting explanations of this phenomenon. One theory says that the highland rock contains materials with a very high dielectric constant, e.g. Iron Pyrite (FeS2, a.k.a. Fool's Gold). Another theory has the mountains covered with an almost radar-transparent material (e.g. quartz) studded with football-sized scatterers, e.g. boulders. A few well placed bistatic observations with a circularly-polarized signal should be able to sort this out since these materials would have very different depolarization properties. The original goal of the Magellan radar experiment, to map at least 70% of the surface, was determined after consulting many planetary scientists. It was felt that if less than 70% was covered, there would be a small but non-negligible chance that some major class of feature would be missed. However, with 99% in the can, I don't know of anyone working with the data who is stymied over the missing 1%, although Brook's Law is operative and everyone knows of a data gap that sits right in the middle of their favorite image. Peter Ford MIT Center for Space Research Disclaimer: just my own opinions... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1993 16:50:23 GMT From: apryan@vax1.tcd.ie Subject: Omnimax Newsgroups: sci.astro,sci.space In article <1993Mar26.120237.1@fnalf.fnal.gov>, higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey) writes: > In article <1993Mar26.035241.1@vax1.tcd.ie>, apryan@vax1.tcd.ie writes: >> In a separate question: Does anyone know who produces Omnimax equipment? >> Also, if you have seen omnimax shows please let me know what you thought >> of it, where you saw it and when. Thanks. > > Imax in Toronto is the company behind Omnimax and Imax films and > equipment. I have searched my records for their address but I can't > find it. I dimly recall that they are on the Internet... perhaps > somebody in Toronto can help. You might also post your question to > rec.photo. Thanks to everyone who replied (email too). About dozen responses - very useful Anyone know exact Internet address of Imax? Have tried postmast@imax.com. I know of one IMAX in UK. Anyone know of all/any IMAX AND OMNIMAX insatllations in UK and REST OF EUROPE? -Tony Ryan, "Astronomy & Space", new International magazine, available from: Astronomy Ireland, P.O.Box 2888, Dublin 1, Ireland. (WORLD'S LARGEST ASTRO. SOC. per capita - unless you know better?) 6 issues (one year sub.): UK 10.00 pounds, US$20 surface (add US$8 airmail). ACCESS/VISA/MASTERCARD accepted (give number, expiration date, name&address). Newslines (48p/36p per min): 0891-88-1950 (UK/N.Ireland) 1550-111-442 (Eire). ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 1993 04:09:56 -0500 From: Pat Subject: Plans, absence therof Newsgroups: sci.space This should be in talk.politics.space ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 93 12:49:37 GMT From: Dean Adams Subject: Space Calendar - 03/27/93 Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,sci.space.shuttle,alt.sci.planetary >March 1993 >* Mar 27 - GPS/SEDS-1 Delta II Launch Does anyone know the LAUNCH WINDOW times for this flight? I would sure like to check out the live coverage... ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 1993 11:43:33 -0500 From: Daniel Drucker Subject: Speculation: the extension of TCP/IP and DNS into large light lag enviroments Newsgroups: alt.internet.services,sci.space In article tombaker@world.std.com (Tom A Baker) writes: >I for one would be tickled pick if we could set up optical fiber cables >between the two planets. And don't say that is flatly absolutely >impossible. It _is_ flatly impossible. Unlike the clay models, platents aren't in neat little lines circling the sun on a plane. And anyway, what would be the point? You only need a fiber if you have to bend the signal. Just shoot a laser between the two points. We do that on earth all the time! On earth, if you don't have to bend, we use microwave. A lot of 10mbps signals travel that way. (I believe all of NEARnet's 10mbps connections are microwave.) -- Daniel Drucker N2SXX | xyzzy@gnu.ai.mit.edu Forever, forever, my Coda. | und2dzd@vaxc.hofstra.edu ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 1993 04:42:52 -0500 From: Pat Subject: SSF REdesign Newsgroups: sci.space Okay, I'm not real good at orbital mechanics, the seminar i sat in on it, really glazed my eyes over, so I'll need some more expert opinions. Can A gravitationally gradient stabilized spacecraft, with 1 DOF solar arrays, maintain more or less accepatble sun pointing angles? My question is in this context. SS Ed, has these two big alpha Gimbels, that keep the modules pointed at earth, while maintaning Sun Point. My guess, is if the station is gravity stabilized, whatever instruments needed, will point DOwn, out the station bottom, and while there may be times, when Power is occluded, I believe that suitable power management and big batteries would offset the reduced complexity from not having to have these large gimbels. My other idea, is forget earth pointing. Work to maintain sun point, using a sun-synchronous orbit??? and then when something needs to image the earth, put it on a rotating boom, that will compensate for station motion. I think sun-synchronous requires 97 degrees of inclination, but how about at 51 degrees, can some reasonable form of solar syncronicity be maintained? pat ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 1993 04:17:58 -0500 From: Pat Subject: STS-55 (Columbia) abort (was Aurora?) Newsgroups: sci.space In article henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes: >SRBs, which are bolted to the pad. (Explosive nuts blow to release them.) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Now there's a good Job for $1 to do replace $1 with "Pat/Dennis/Nick/Fred/Stein....." :-) ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 1993 04:27:52 -0500 From: Pat Subject: STS-55 (Columbia) abort (was Aurora?) Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993Mar24.203417.20580@ringer.cs.utsa.edu> sbooth@lonestar.utsa.edu (Simon E. Booth) writes: >> >>An operational space transport system *ought* to be able to reach orbit >>with one engine out at liftoff, but the shuttle wasn't designed that way. >> Or be able to make a graceful launch de-commit. Lot's of Aircraft cannot make takeoff with an engine out, but they usually have a fairly small window between the time they can no longer safely abort takeoff, and the time until they reach Vr. I think the first time is called V1. Not to start a real flame war, but the STS was not designed to be an operationa l Transport system. > >Supposedly it's been said that an RTLS abort landing would be near >suicidal. I don't remember where I heard this though. > From what I read, the predicted hard part, is that a RTLS requires an Upside Down, SUpersonic 180 While still under power. The stress loads on the airframe are a little rough. > >I've often wondered why there were no test flights before manned flights >started. At least they should have tried one of the Approach and Landing >Tests with the Enterprise landing on the KSC shuttle runway. Systems for unmanned landing were not approved. It was a source of some controversy, that the first shuttle mission had astronauts on it. BURAN first flew unmanned, and no other manned american launcher flew without some engineering tests. Now as far as a KSC landing, I don't think they wanted to risk bending an airframe, with all the bad publicity that would create and how much doubt it would create on major shuttle assumptions. pat ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 93 02:55:14 GMT From: William Reiken Subject: the call to space (was Re: Clueless Szaboisms ) Newsgroups: sci.space,talk.politics.space In article <1ot012$g32@access.digex.com>, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes: > > Nuclear Power proved to be a technological rathole. > This is not correct. Alot of knowledge and technology came out of all of this. Also, you may note that I am in Japan = First hand knowledge. While America is destroying the Nuclear Power Industry. Japan is building their up. I know what you Americans watch on Televesion, Aniti-Nuclear movements in Japan, etc... What you do not understand is that these are all government controlled agencys and the Anti-Nuclear stance is not against Japan but the rest of the world. The Japanese as a result have been very good at getting American (**Suckers**) to help them. Now with Clinton you get the final results. HA HA HA, Jokes on you. The nuclear wastes you are trying to get rid of are the oil of the future. Will... ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 1993 03:52:51 -0500 From: Pat Subject: UARS status? Newsgroups: sci.space In article <24MAR199317112710@stdvax> abdkw@stdvax (David Ward) writes: |>And finally, is there any truth to the rumours about some |>difficulties with the satellite's batteries? |> |Unfortunately, I hear similar rumors down the hall. The problem is |similar to GRO's, evidenced by increasing differential voltages. I |think this is eveidence of premature battery aging. Looks, like there is real money in earthto space power beaming for eclipse management. ANyone know how many sites would be needed to protect US DomSats in Geo,sync aand how about the more leo birds, would you need 6-8 World wide stations. First guess says yes. >Also, thanks for the last two week's conversation. As a new poster, >I can't wait to see the subjest "Clueless Wardisms" No, You have to work Real Long and Hard to Get that Appellation. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 93 08:59:04 GMT From: James Thomas Green Subject: Venus is covered with water? Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro Noted astrophysicist Jay Leno said on the Friday 3/26 Tonight Show that Venus is covered with 75 feet of water! I guess he knows something I don't :-) /~~~(-: James T. Green :-)~~~~(-: jgreen@oboe.calpoly.edu :-)~~~\ |I didn't do it! Nobody saw me do it! You can't prove anything! | | | ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 1993 04:01:45 -0500 From: Pat Subject: What happened to CRAF? Newsgroups: sci.space In article 18084TM@msu.edu (Tom) writes: | |>>JPL had kept their end of the bargain, Congress did not. But I don't really |>>blame Congress for all this. I blame the budgetary process. I does not | |OK, so the bottom line is, congress caused CRAF/Cassini's budget to go up, |after which, congress decided it was too expensive. Typical, I'd agree, |but is there any way to change this situation in the context of a gov agency? Use your budget to buy Guns, then get all the staff together to March down and Lobby COngress for more money. OOps, that's how the DoD gets their budget already. Use your budget, to buy Guns, Smuggle them to small illegal Revolutionary movements, and suing your secret aircraft fleet, fly back loads of Illegal Narcotics, for distribution to willing populace. OOps, sorry that's how the CIA run their budget. The way NASA can lock in government funding is to go for secure multi-year procurements. But that means that NASA has to do a better job defining requirements and controlling contractors. THis weeks AW&ST talks about Goldin's new plan to retract incentive bonuses if the project goes south. Also the COngress held hearings on Why NASA programs run way off budget. Sure congress hits them in the kisser, but NASA mis-management puts them on their knees first. Witness Shuttle Toilet, the Advanced Turbo-pump program, MO, HST..... pat ------------------------------ End of Space Digest Volume 16 : Issue 378 ------------------------------