Date: Sat, 13 Mar 93 05:31:27 From: Space Digest maintainer Reply-To: Space-request@isu.isunet.edu Subject: Space Digest V16 #309 To: Space Digest Readers Precedence: bulk Space Digest Sat, 13 Mar 93 Volume 16 : Issue 309 Today's Topics: Cancels & Clari.* was Re: Threat of mass cancellings (3 msgs) cancel wars accountability (3 msgs) Clementine and the Moon (was Re: plans, and absence thereof) (3 msgs) DC-X Gaspra Animation (QuickTime) Lunar Ice Transport NASA and gold Retraining at NASA Soviet Energia: Available for Commercial Use? Threat of mass cancellings was Re: Anon Threat of mass cancellings was Re: Anonymity is NOT the issue (3 msgs) Welcome to the Space Digest!! Please send your messages to "space@isu.isunet.edu", and (un)subscription requests of the form "Subscribe Space " to one of these addresses: listserv@uga (BITNET), rice::boyle (SPAN/NSInet), utadnx::utspan::rice::boyle (THENET), or space-REQUEST@isu.isunet.edu (Internet). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Mar 1993 00:38:56 GMT From: David Clunie Subject: Cancels & Clari.* was Re: Threat of mass cancellings Newsgroups: news.admin.policy,news.admin,comp.org.eff.talk,sci.space,alt.privacy In article 2@cs.cmu.edu, Karl_Kleinpaste@cs.cmu.edu () writes: >dclunie@pax.tpa.com.au writes: > I think I will probably just turn off response to cancel messages totally if > >That will cause quite a problem if you take a clari.* feed. > > It seems to me they are rarely used for other than controversial purposes I don't get a clari feed (unfortunately) - what is the significance of clari.* feeds and cancel messages ? --- David A. Clunie (dclunie@pax.tpa.com.au) ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 1993 00:55:17 GMT From: "Richard H. Miller" Subject: Cancels & Clari.* was Re: Threat of mass cancellings Newsgroups: news.admin.policy,news.admin,comp.org.eff.talk,sci.space,alt.privacy In article <1nraf0INNsmj@flash.pax.tpa.com.au>, dclunie@pax.tpa.com.au (David Clunie) writes: > > I don't get a clari feed (unfortunately) - what is the significance of > clari.* feeds and cancel messages ? The clarinet groups aggressivly use cancel messages to manage the contents of their newsgroups. Articles are removed via this mechanism rather than letting them expire. -- Richard H. Miller Email: rick@bcm.tmc.edu Asst. Dir. for Technical Support Voice: (713)798-3532 Baylor College of Medicine US Mail: One Baylor Plaza, 302H Houston, Texas 77030 ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 93 05:09:42 GMT From: Michael Moroney Subject: Cancels & Clari.* was Re: Threat of mass cancellings Newsgroups: news.admin.policy,news.admin,comp.org.eff.talk,sci.space,alt.privacy dclunie@pax.tpa.com.au (David Clunie) writes: >In article 2@cs.cmu.edu, Karl_Kleinpaste@cs.cmu.edu () writes: >>dclunie@pax.tpa.com.au writes: >> I think I will probably just turn off response to cancel messages totally if >> >>That will cause quite a problem if you take a clari.* feed. >> >> It seems to me they are rarely used for other than controversial purposes >I don't get a clari feed (unfortunately) - what is the significance of >clari.* feeds and cancel messages ? Clarinet uses cancels or supersedes to remove an old copy of a story when they post an updated copy. For a rapidly-developing story there can be quite a few cancels/reposts of the story a day. -Mike ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 93 01:19:35 GMT From: 8 February 1993 Subject: cancel wars accountability Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,alt.privacy,sci.space,sci.astro,news.admin.policy If do not think Richard E. Depew's (red@uhura.neoucom.edu) threat to censor the postings *you* may wish to read by beginning a "canceling war," a good idea, please write directly to: Prof. John Docherty, M.D., Ph.D., Director, Department of Microbiology/Immunology NEOUCOM (Northeastern Ohio Universities College of Medicine) Rootstown, OH 44272 or call him at (216) 325-2511 You may also wish to copy: William Dorsey, Manager, Computer Services NEOUCOM Rootstown, OH 44272 Express your concern for this threatened instance of network vandalism and damage to academic freedom throughout the world by a reputed representative of his organization. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help@anon.penet.fi. Due to the double-blind system, any replies to this message will be anonymized, and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned. Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to admin@anon.penet.fi. *IMPORTANT server security update*, mail to update@anon.penet.fi for details. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 1993 05:18:59 GMT From: Tarl Neustaedter Subject: cancel wars accountability Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,alt.privacy,sci.space,sci.astro,news.admin.policy In article <1993Mar13.045419.24752@fuug.fi> an8785@anon.penet.fi writes: >[...] please write directly to: > >Prof. John Docherty, M.D., Ph.D., Director, >Department of Microbiology/Immunology >[...] Since you are so easy about dispensing the names of managers of individuals you have a gripe with, would you care to provide us with the name and addresses of your managers and system administrators? ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 1993 05:41:55 GMT From: Tarl Neustaedter Subject: cancel wars accountability Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,alt.privacy,sci.space,sci.astro,news.admin.policy In article <1993Mar13.045419.24752@fuug.fi> an8785@anon.penet.fi writes: >[...] please write directly to: > >Prof. xxx xxxx, M.D., Ph.D., Director, >Department of Microbiology/Immunology >[...] >or call him at (xxx) xxx-xxxx > >You may also wish to copy: [...] You have a gripe with Mr. Depew. Your response is to provide the net at large with the addresses and phone numbers of his manager and sysadmin, and request that they be mail-bombed. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Would you care to allow us to know the names and addresses of your managers and sysadmins? I realize this request is rhetorical, your ethics don't extend to exposing yourself to the harrasment you wish upon others. Julf, this attack really extends beyond the pale of what any reasonable administrator will condone. Will you finally shut this asshole off? Tarl ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 93 12:30:19 GMT From: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey Subject: Clementine and the Moon (was Re: plans, and absence thereof) Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993Mar12.211051.5649@kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca>, martin@space.ualberta.ca (Martin Connors) writes: > In article <1993Mar11.101455.1@fnalf.fnal.gov> higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov > (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey) writes: >> The major purpose of Clementine is to test SDI sensors in space. As >> long as they need to fly a couple of UV-visible and IR cameras, and a >> laser altimeter/LIDAR, they decided to do some lunar and asteroid >> science with them. > > I heard about Clementine in detail at the 'Asteroid Hazard' meeting in > Tucson in January. The SDI people were taken to task by a noted scientist > for trying to stretch the limits of the anti-missile-missile treaty by not > testing this sort of stuff in NEO where it would be directly forbidden, > but sending the same equipment into Deep Space and testing it there. Yes, I understand that this is a deliberate dive through a loophole in the ABM Treaty. I learned this from somebody working on Clementine. I haven't checked the treaty's provisions to see what the details are. Reviewing *Time Trax*: "In this future | Bill Higgins, Beam Jockey police have gotten more technical, | Fermilab computers have gotten much smaller, | Bitnet: HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET criminals have become much cleverer, | Bitnet: HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET and matte painters | SPAN/Hepnet: 43011::HIGGINS have lost the secrets of their ancestors." --Mark Leeper ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 93 03:13:57 GMT From: "Robert M. Unverzagt" Subject: Clementine and the Moon (was Re: plans, and absence thereof) Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993Mar12.211051.5649@kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca> martin@space.ualberta.ca (Martin Connors) writes: > In article <1993Mar11.101455.1@fnalf.fnal.gov> higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov > (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey) writes: > > The major purpose of Clementine is to test SDI sensors in space. As > > long as they need to fly a couple of UV-visible and IR cameras, and a > > laser altimeter/LIDAR, they decided to do some lunar and asteroid > > science with them. > > I heard about Clementine in detail at the 'Asteroid Hazard' meeting in > Tucson in January. The SDI people were taken to task by a noted scientist > for trying to stretch the limits of the anti-missile-missile treaty by not > testing this sort of stuff in NEO where it would be directly forbidden, > but sending the same equipment into Deep Space and testing it there. > > Any knowlegible people have a comment? Apart from the moral aspects > Clementine sounds like a dream mission. > What moral aspects? > Disclaimer: above may seem a bit evasive but direct quotes from what was > said at the meeting are not appropriate in this context. > Shag -- Rob Unverzagt | shag@aerospace.aero.org | Tuesday is soylent green day. unverzagt@courier2.aero.org | ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1993 02:44:33 GMT From: Henry Spencer Subject: Clementine and the Moon (was Re: plans, and absence thereof) Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993Mar12.211051.5649@kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca> martin@space.ualberta.ca (Martin Connors) writes: >I heard about Clementine in detail at the 'Asteroid Hazard' meeting in >Tucson in January. The SDI people were taken to task by a noted scientist >for trying to stretch the limits of the anti-missile-missile treaty by not >testing this sort of stuff in NEO where it would be directly forbidden... I would be somewhat surprised if this were the case. SDIO flies sensor tests constantly, including several orbital tests in the last few years. As I recall, the ABM treaty explicitly permits technology tests -- what it forbids is testing of anything resembling an integrated operational system. And as far as I know, it makes no distinction between low Earth orbit and other areas of space. -- C++ is the best example of second-system| Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology effect since OS/360. | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1993 03:10:47 GMT From: Dave Michelson Subject: DC-X Newsgroups: sci.space In article Cohen@ssdgwy.mdc.com (Andy Cohen) writes: > >They were MOST interested in hearing about YOUR support. > >I agreed to carry hard copies of posts from here to their facility as a >morale booster.....they say they work 40 hour days there....... and are >looking forward to months in the desert.......They do not know about how >this communitee feels about their efforts...so SPEAK UP!! Your description of your tour of the DC-X was one of the most exciting posts that I've ever read here! History as it happens and all that. Wow! It goes without saying that the DC-X team certainly have *my* support. Pete Conrad being a Navy guy and all that, what can I say except "Bravo Zulu".... --- Dave Michelson University of British Columbia davem@ee.ubc.ca Antenna Laboratory ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 1993 01:28 UT From: Ron Baalke Subject: Gaspra Animation (QuickTime) Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary ============================== GASPRA ANIMATION March 12, 1993 ============================== The Gaspra animation is now available at the Ames Space Archives in QuickTime format. The animation was formed from 11 images taken by the Galileo spaecraft shortly before its closest approach to the asteroid in October 1991. The animation is available using anonymous ftp to: ftp: ames.arc.nasa.gov (128.102.18.3) user: anonymous cd: pub/SPACE/ANIMATION files: gaspra.qt ___ _____ ___ /_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Ron Baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov | | | | __ \ /| | | | Jet Propulsion Lab | ___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ M/S 525-3684 Telos | It's kind of fun to do /___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | the impossible. |_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | Walt Disney ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1993 01:17:08 GMT From: purple@planetx.austin.ibm.com Subject: Lunar Ice Transport Newsgroups: sci.space What about using a cable tramway ? You'd need ~ five thousand kilometers of steel or aluminum cable, and maybe two thousand tall aluminum poles with pulleys on top. Plus some metal hooks to hang the ice-blocks on. Gains: Do not have to bulldoze 3000 km. road across crater-fields. Do not need fleet of ice-hauling vehicles. Do not have to catch ice-blocks moving at orbital speeds. Losses: Cable break = shut down whole line until repaired. Might be hard to dig post-holes in regolith. (not to .=+=.__________________.=+=.______________ scale) .` | [] [] | ------> .[] | | to equator ice station` | .%. .. .%%. | %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ( Also, return cable can carry tourists to newly built polar ski resort :) -- Lance Purple | My posts are NOT | IBM Corporation, Austin TX | IBM's opinions. | ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 1993 00:38:12 -0500 From: Pat Subject: NASA and gold Newsgroups: sci.space Actually, I imagine the HQ staff is mostly congressional relations and PR and that sort of thing. Very few people are involved in design, operations, etc unless they have moved up to managing budgets for science programs. the really large programs maintain separate offices elsewhere. pat ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1993 01:52:33 GMT From: Brian Donnell Subject: Retraining at NASA Newsgroups: sci.space Major sigh...I think most of us within NASA who read these threads look at them with a sense of resignation. People like Nick Szabo and Tom McWilliams are so misinformed, it's depressing to even attempt to correct them. But let me be absolutely clear from the beginning. I think it *is* NASA's fault that they are misinformed. NASA's PR in general has been pathetic (until very recently). JPL, for example, has great PR, and that's why people like Tom realize they do great work (and they *do* in fact do great work). However, the other elements of NASA are also just as productive and capable. And the counter-example is true - there are several major flubs on JPL's record too. I do not pretend to claim that there haven't been any mistakes in the design and implementation of NASA programs, for there have been many. But that is the nature of things when you are doing things for the first time - and I sometimes think people forget that's what we're doing. I would further argue that no collection of private consortiums could have done *any* better with the given resources. I know this is a badly bruised and beaten horse, but the fact of the matter is that the lack of vision in Congress has been a major contributing factor to many of NASA's difficulties. Most (if not all) of the frustrating shortcomings in Shuttle and Station are due to inadequate, unrealistic and fickle funding. The technological know-how within NASA is there. The bureaucracy of government procurement forced on NASA is another stumbling block. If Congress could find the wherewithal to commit to a multi-year project, we might have had Station years ago. Brian Donnell NASA/Johnson Space Center on temporary assignment to: NASA/Ames Research Center ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 93 15:22:28 EST From: Chris Jones Subject: Soviet Energia: Available for Commercial Use? Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993Mar10.164247.2848@ringer.cs.utsa.edu>, sbooth@lonestar (Simon E. Booth) writes: BTW- are we to assume that Energia evolved out of the N-1? I don't think so. They look nothing alike, have different numbers of stages, use different propellants, and have different numbers of engines. >Unless I'm mistaken, N-1 was supposed to exceed the launch thrust of the >Saturn V, something like 9 or 10 million pounds of thrust vs. the Saturn's >7.5 million. That's true. I believe that the N-1 would have had a lower payload to the moon than a Saturn V, however, because the structure and fuel mass was higher. -- Chris Jones clj@ksr.com ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 93 17:23:04 CST From: Jason Burrell Subject: Threat of mass cancellings was Re: Anon Newsgroups: news.admin.policy,news.admin,comp.org.eff.talk,sci.space,alt.privacy In <1nql3gINNfed@flash.pax.tpa.com.au>, dclunie@pax.tpa.com.au (David Clunie) writes: > In article 826@jato.jpl.nasa.gov, dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes: > > >dclunie@pax.tpa.com.au (David Clunie) writes: > > >>> I am testing a shell script to carry out "Automated Retroactive > >>>Minimal Moderation" in response to Julf's (and your) suggestion that > > >How very nice of you. > > In trimming your response you edited this to make it look as if this proposal > was made by me !@#$ > > It should be attributed to EIx@redpoll.neoucom.edu, red@redpoll.neoucom.edu > (Richard E. Depew). > > I was in fact decrying Richard's suggestion ... please be more careful with > your editing ... I in no way want to have my comments construed as > endorsing Richard's proposal for unreasonable behaviour of cancelling other > people's posts. I strenuously oppose his suggestion. > > --- > David A. Clunie (dclunie@pax.tpa.com.au) > Just cut this entire message out. This guy is apparently a nutcase so don't give him the satisfaction. As has been said, this moron has probably caused many admin. to disable cancels all together. -- Jason_Burrell@fcircus.sat.tx.us Device Driver Stacker.sys not found. Hit (P) to panic! -- Any information provided in any note written by this user ID is under the standard disclaimer. The author is not responsible for negligent use of ANY information given in said note. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 1993 19:21:40 -0600 From: Karl Denninger Subject: Threat of mass cancellings was Re: Anonymity is NOT the issue Newsgroups: news.admin,comp.org.eff.talk,sci.space,alt.privacy,news.admin.policy In article "William C. Hulley" writes: > >we can assume that three things will happen if rick enacts his >delightfully sensitive censorship scheme: > > - his site will be cut off from the rest of the net, Perhaps. > - another anonymous site with a different naming scheme will be started > within hours, Almost certainly. > - someone will try to post anonymously and when that post is > "moderatedly moderated" he or she will contact the EFF and the ACLU > and begin, probably through the courts, an action to protect our > first amendment rights. Uh, don't bet on it. The First Ammendment only applies to GOVERNMENT censorship, and only within the US. Private companies do not have to abide the First Ammendment. -- Karl Denninger (karl@genesis.MCS.COM) | You can never please everyone except Data Line: [+1 312 248-0900] | by bankrupting yourself. LIVE Internet in Chicago; an MCSNET first! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1993 03:03:16 GMT From: Karl_Kleinpaste@cs.cmu.edu Subject: Threat of mass cancellings was Re: Anonymity is NOT the issue Newsgroups: news.admin.policy,news.admin,comp.org.eff.talk,sci.space,alt.privacy nk24+@andrew.cmu.edu writes: "Two wrongs does not make a right." Quite so -- I'm not recommending it. But in order to have applied that aphorism, you must have acknowledged that what Johan is doing is wrong. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1993 03:05:05 GMT From: Karl_Kleinpaste@cs.cmu.edu Subject: Threat of mass cancellings was Re: Anonymity is NOT the issue Newsgroups: news.admin.policy,news.admin,comp.org.eff.talk,sci.space,alt.privacy wcs@anchor.ho.att.com writes: Can you set up an appropriately designed killfile to kill clumsily-forged cancel messages? Attempts to do what Mr Depew is planning are not (I would think) done in what could be described as a "clumsy" fashion. The right way to forge-cancel a posting is to use the original posting's own headers, then rip the Path:, invert Message-Id: into Control: cancel, and above all else leave the From:, Date:, and other headers intact. Except for the odd Path: that will inevitably result (the origin site will appear to have odd neighbors), it's be quite indistinguishable from a normal self-cancellation. ------------------------------ Newsgroups: news.admin.policy,news.admin,comp.org.eff.talk,sci.space,alt.privacy Path: crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!news.sei.cmu.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!network.ucsd.edu!pacbell.com!att-out!cbnewsh!cbnewsh.cb.att.com!wcs From: Bill Stewart +1-908-949-0705 Subject: Re: Threat of mass cancellings was Re: Anonymity is NOT the issue Organization: Electronic Birdwatching Society Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1993 00:03:39 GMT Message-Id: In-Reply-To: wcs@anchor.ho.att.com's message of Fri, 12 Mar 1993 23:56:22 GMT References: <1nq1f2INNfed@flash.pax.tpa.com.au> <1993Mar12.162139.826@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> Sender: NetNews Administrator Nntp-Posting-Host: rainier.ho.att.com Lines: 24 Source-Info: Sender is really news@CRABAPPLE.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU Source-Info: Sender is really isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU In response to the anonymous mass assassination proposal, In article <1993Mar12.162139.826@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes: How very nice of you. Have you considered that your actions may cause many news admins to cancel all control messages coming from your site? Aside from the gross impoliteness, this brings up a technical problem - for the popular news distribution systems, e.g. C News, NNTP, etc., who wins the race between a control message and a site's killfile, if it has one? Can you set up an appropriately designed killfile to kill clumsily-forged cancel messages? My guess is that if you can, it would probably include a filter to kill all cancellation messages from well-known anonymous-posting sites, which is an interesting *anti*censorship application. Perhaps it could also automagically generate responses mailed to the assassin, until he publicly recants? -- # Pray for peace; Bill # Bill Stewart 1-908-949-0705 wcs@anchor.att.com AT&T Bell Labs 4M312 Holmdel NJ # Sacrifice is when you give up something valuable that's *yours*. # Making other people give up valuable things of *theirs* is called # other things :-) Keep your politicians honest out there! ------------------------------ End of Space Digest Volume 16 : Issue 309 ------------------------------