Date: Thu, 25 Feb 93 05:04:57 From: Space Digest maintainer Reply-To: Space-request@isu.isunet.edu Subject: Space Digest V16 #225 To: Space Digest Readers Precedence: bulk Space Digest Thu, 25 Feb 93 Volume 16 : Issue 225 Today's Topics: Beamed power transmission on Mars? Elements -> AZ,ELEV Getting people into Space Program! HELP, PLEASE! with USRA Design Project (2 msgs) How many RPM's around his own axle c Human Distance Record:Apollo 13 LOAN space station money to a company? Looking for astronaut plastic figures... Mars Rescue Mission, what if! Neil Armstrong NOAA, METEOR satellites Nobody cares about Fred? (2 msgs) Plans for Phobos/Diemos? (2 msgs) Revised RESULT: sci.geo.eosdis fails 112:14 Sex and Subject Lines (was Re: Sabatier Reactors.) unnecceary violence (was: Nobody cares about Fred?) Weekly reminder for Frequently Asked Questions list Welcome to the Space Digest!! Please send your messages to "space@isu.isunet.edu", and (un)subscription requests of the form "Subscribe Space " to one of these addresses: listserv@uga (BITNET), rice::boyle (SPAN/NSInet), utadnx::utspan::rice::boyle (THENET), or space-REQUEST@isu.isunet.edu (Internet). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Feb 93 20:44:01 GMT From: Tim Thompson Subject: Beamed power transmission on Mars? Newsgroups: sci.space I will express the opinion that this is not a practical idea. First, since Mars has little atmosphere, an orbiting receiver will not be all that much more efficient than solar cells on the ground (or on a rover, etc.). Nothing to be gained by being in orbit, except maybe size. Using a laser to beam power down isn't a hot idea because the laser takes a lot of power to generate, and it's hard to convert at the bottom, microwaves are a much better idea. However, the notion of beaming power down by miocrowaves has been explored for the earth, and found impractical from an engineering standpoint. As I recall there were severe problems keeping the signal from various parts of a large antenna (or antenna array) in phase, to prevent destructive interference. --- ALL OPINIONS EXPRESSED ARE MINE ALONE. BELIEVE THEM AT YOUR OWN DISCRETION. I DO. ------------------------------------------------------------ Timothy J. Thompson, Earth and Space Sciences Division, JPL. Assistant Administrator, Division Science Computing Network. Secretary, Los Angeles Astronomical Society. Member, BOD, Mount Wilson Observatory Association. INTERnet/BITnet: tjt@scn1.jpl.nasa.gov NSI/DECnet: jplsc8::tim SCREAMnet: YO!! TIM!! GPSnet: 118:10:22.85 W by 34:11:58.27 N ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 93 19:41:07 GMT From: Scott Coffeen Subject: Elements -> AZ,ELEV Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro Hello. I am looking for a book of equations necessary to convert satellite orbital elements into azimuth and elevation. I can't use a computer, I must work it all out by hand (That's what college is all about!) I was wondering if there was a book by NASA on the subject. I checked the FAQ but I really didn't see anything that helped. Thanks! -- --= Scott Coffeen - Georgia Tech - gt4609c@prism.gatech.edu =-- ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 93 19:40:51 GMT From: Pat Subject: Getting people into Space Program! Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993Feb22.222529.9297@ee.ubc.ca> davem@ee.ubc.ca (Dave Michelson) writes: | ---------------------------------- | 199 19 | ---------------------------------- | |Of 12 X-15 pilots, it appears that 8 earned astronaut wings. | | |--- |Dave Michelson University of British Columbia |davem@ee.ubc.ca Antenna Laboratory I didn't realize the percentage of "Space" X-15 fligts were so low. But the basic concept still stands. That A "Research" vehicle undergoing a "Dynamic test routine" was able to maintain an average flight level higher then a "Operational" shuttle system. And that said research vehicle was able to achieve regular routine access to space. Granted tehy are two entirely difficult vehicles, but it si only lately, 33 some years after the x-15 flew that the STS is able to achieve a flight rate vaguely like the x-15. Sortie rates are very important from an operations viewpoint, and the shuttle has had a great deal of difficulty achieving a reasonable sorty rate. pat ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1993 16:08:20 GMT From: John Collins Subject: HELP, PLEASE! with USRA Design Project Newsgroups: sci.space To anyone interested, The University of Cincinnati's Aerospace Engineering Senior Design Project this year is part of the USRA Senior Design Project, sponsored by NASA. I am a member of this design team and our task is to design a lunar transportation system for travel between the lunar equitorial region and the northern polar region. (Our whole design project is based on the premise that ice has been discovered in the northern polar regions of the moon and will be mined, processed, and used for fuel and life support). We already have some preliminary calculations completed and have a general idea of what the vehicle will look like, but if anyone out there has any ideas (e.g., pictures, descriptions, other journal articles that we can reference), please feel free to throw them this way! We need all the support we can get. ... Thanks a lot, John Collins jcollins@uceng.uc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1993 16:09:56 GMT From: John Collins Subject: HELP, PLEASE! with USRA Design Project Newsgroups: sci.space To anyone interested, The University of Cincinnati's Aerospace Engineering Senior Design Project this year is part of the USRA Senior Design Project, sponsored by NASA. I am a member of this design team and our task is to design a lunar transportation system for travel between the lunar equitorial region and the northern polar region. (Our whole design project is based on the premise that ice has been discovered in the northern polar regions of the moon and will be mined, processed, and used for fuel and life support). We already have some preliminary calculations completed and have a general idea of what the vehicle will look like, but if anyone out there has any ideas (e.g., pictures, descriptions, other journal articles that we can reference), please feel free to throw them this way! We need all the support we can get. ... Thanks a lot, John Collins jcollins@uceng.uc.edu ------------------------------ Date: 24 Feb 93 12:32:27 GMT From: Steve Grant Subject: How many RPM's around his own axle c Newsgroups: sci.space > This guy would get along well with the rec pyrotechnicas crowd.... Hehehe, I tend to agree, not that there is anything wrong with them... Steve Grant ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1993 19:09:11 GMT From: Dillon Pyron Subject: Human Distance Record:Apollo 13 Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993Feb23.111910.16787@unisys.co.nz>, carter@unisys.co.nz (Paul Carter) writes: >The answer to who holds the record distance from Earth is the crew of >Apollo 13. They achieved 400,187 km (248,655 imperials). >The crew were Capt. James Lovell, Fred Haise and John Swigert. Okay, now for a toughie (I don't know the answer, I'm really looking for it). Who was the loneliest man in the Universe? In other words, which of the Apollo "third men" got furthest from his teammates, and was, hence furtherest from any living human? That we know of :-) > [deleted] > >Anyway, I wonder exactly WHO was at the back of the Apollo 13 can when >it made history ? Weren't they actually in the rather cozy LM? > -- Dillon Pyron | The opinions expressed are those of the TI/DSEG Lewisville VAX Support | sender unless otherwise stated. (214)462-3556 (when I'm here) | (214)492-4656 (when I'm home) |No people gave up their rights all at once. pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com |Preserve the Bill of Rights. PADI DM-54909 |Protect the Second Amendment. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1993 21:07:11 GMT From: Jeff Bytof Subject: LOAN space station money to a company? Newsgroups: sci.space Maybe it would be better just to loan a capable company the money to design and build a space station for its own purposes. Probably a station designed and run by a company would be smaller, more cost effective and have more highly focused objectives than one that NASA comes up with. -rabjab ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1993 14:09:22 EST From: BWF2@psuvm.psu.edu Subject: Looking for astronaut plastic figures... Newsgroups: sci.space In article , keithley@apple.com (Craig Keithley) says: >In article <1993Feb8.191047.20168@netcom.com>, daniels@netcom.com (Daniel >A. Segel) wrote: >> >> I'm looking for some plastic figures, about 6" high, of astronauts >> doing various astronaut-like things such as planting a flag, holding >> a camera, etc. >> >Geez... That brings back memories of Major Matt Mason (sic?). About the >same size as and functionality as GI-JOE. Lets see, it was late sixties, >early seventies. They're probably collectors items now. Lots of neat moon >rovers, etc. Sigh. I'd probably pay for one if it was in good enough >condition... >Craig Keithley >Apple Computer, Inc. >keithley@apple.com How about Billy Blastoff! When I was around 10 in 69 and was watching the Apollo missions, Billy was alway with me. :-) I think I might still have him and all his equipment. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 93 20:45:56 GMT From: Keith A Taylor Subject: Mars Rescue Mission, what if! Newsgroups: sci.space The obvious way to deal with Mars rescue is to send an unmanned Mars station/ return vehicle before you ever send a crew. Granted, this doesn't solve all failure modes. Also, this is expensive enough that it might not be done. But, who said going to Mars was cheap. Losing a crew in a maximum-visibility situation is a very unattractive contingency. The other benefit of a prepositioned return ship is that you can preposition lots of equipment and supplies. And, you can send the first ship via a minimum-energy orbit (read: long) and maybe send the crew on a faster transfer orbit with less supplies and less mass, making the faster transfer orbit feasible. Keith Taylor Tektronix DPL Eng. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1993 19:00:29 GMT From: Dillon Pyron Subject: Neil Armstrong Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro In article <1mdk4tINNf0o@rave.larc.nasa.gov>, C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV (CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON) writes: > >> Does anyone know the current whereabouts of Neil Armstrong? >> What does he do these days? > > >According to a letter that Neil Armstrong wrote to the people that was organizing >the X-15 First Flight 30th Aniversary Celebration in June 1989 at Ames, at that time >he was working at NASA Headquarters. I do not know if he is still there but since >that letter was written almost four years ago, it is likely that he is still there. I last saw him on TDC on a show called _X-Planes_. He looked good. Better than I at twice my age! He appears to be the "guest co-host" or something. On one episode, he was talking about the smooth flying characteristics of the F16 in the transonic range and how that all came from the XB70, and then spoke of his flight "day before yesterday"! -- Dillon Pyron | The opinions expressed are those of the TI/DSEG Lewisville VAX Support | sender unless otherwise stated. (214)462-3556 (when I'm here) | (214)492-4656 (when I'm home) |No people gave up their rights all at once. pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com |Preserve the Bill of Rights. PADI DM-54909 |Protect the Second Amendment. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 93 18:31:36 GMT From: George Hastings Subject: NOAA, METEOR satellites Newsgroups: sci.space Ron McCarty (Ron McCarty ) writes: > > Message-ID: <93048.152353RON@psuvm.psu.edu> > Newsgroups: sci.space > Subject: NOAA, METEOR satellites > Lines: 16 > > We have set up a satellite receiving station and are receiving > images from NOAA and Meteor (Russian) satellites. We would like > to correspond with others who are doing this or who are interested > in doing this. We are a branch college of Penn State, located in > in Erie PA. We hope to get some programs going with local elementary > and high schools to get students interested in science at an early > age. We also hope to get our own students involved in some undergraduate > research projects. We have faculty involved from computer science, physics, > biology and geoscience. As I said, we would like to correspond with others > who have like interests so we can pool our knowledge/resources/experiences. > Please respond by e-mail or followup, whichever yo Here at the Mathematics & Science Center in Richmond, VA, we have just started on a similar venture. We are a regional K-12 consortium serving the City of Richmond, and the five surrounding counties. We operate a local BBS where we have a DownLoad section for GOES, METEOR, and NOAA Polar Orbiter images available in GIF format. I'm sure that you have already discovered that one problem with digitized images is that they do take up a LOT of storage space. I find that typically, one GIF weather image is just about 1050 XMODEM blocks. Assuming that users have 2400 baud modems, that is a little over ten minutes to DL an image. With a single telephone line in, I can foresee that if DLing WX images becomes popular, we will have to consider multiple lines in, and both our BBS and users will want to move up to high-speed data transfer with more capable modems. I'm also VERY interested in continuing this discussion, and hearing what you and others are doing, experimenting with, or considering in this area! ____________________________________________________________ | George Hastings ghasting@vdoe386.vak12ed.edu | | Space Science Teacher 72407.22@compuserve.com | If it's not | Mathematics & Science Center STAREACH BBS: 804-343-6533 | FUN, it's | 2304 Hartman Street OFFICE: 804-343-6525 | probably not | Richmond, VA 23223 FAX: 804-343-6529 | SCIENCE! ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 93 19:51:32 GMT From: Pat Subject: Nobody cares about Fred? Newsgroups: sci.space Tom munoz does an excellent job of explaining the PM changeout sequence, the costs, weights, hazards and times involved. My original post which started a lot of this was that Freedom should have been designing on hte basis of Methane thrusters. Methane/LOX is close in impulse to hydrazine. Plus Methane can be generated from byproducts of a station life support system. Methane is also not toxic(in low quantity), corrosive(much) and doesn't have to hauled up to orbit in 10KDollar/lb rockets. plus the LOX can be diverted to and from life support, and the methane can even be cracked as fuel stocks for basic chemical processses. All in all, a reasonable alternative fuel, but my understnading from the trade press was the Freedom PMO waived off because not enough knowledge base existed on methane thrusters. This kind of failure seeking management ultimately brought the prgram down. pat ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1993 20:39:02 GMT From: Brad Whitehurst Subject: Nobody cares about Fred? Newsgroups: sci.space In article shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer) writes: >On Tue, 23 Feb 1993 16:23:20 GMT, mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) said: > >FMC> Of course, you probably also want to say that the >FMC> Tacoma Narrows bridge was a *software* failure, too. So tell me >FMC> again how there's no such thing as software engineering because >FMC> it isn't predictable and well understood like 'real' engineering >FMC> -- like, say, bridge design and construction . . . > >Actually, the Tacoma Narrows bridge isn't a very good example of a >failure in understanding and predicting physical phenomena. Structural >resonance was not well understood at the time and the unique site was >not recognized as being likely to induce the problem. > >However, the bridge built 20 years later in Tennessee (?) in the same >sort of terrain that failed in exactly same manner was. > >Every dog (profession) is allowed one bite. > >Comets and their window corners, Electras and their whirl modes, >swept-wing aircraft and inertial coupling.... If you constrain >designers to never make errors you also constrain them to never do >anything new. > >On the other hand, if we built buildings the way we write software, >the first woodpecker to come along would have destroyed civilization. > >-- >Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA >shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov Of course I don't speak for NASA > "A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all." Unknown US fighter pilot Good analogy, Mary! I'll have to remember that one. One thing that disturbs me about many graduating engineers (that I've either worked with or taught) is a disturbing tendency to believe too much in the computer answers. Even mechies lean to the computer answers, and are profoundly disturbed when real life doesn't match the model. They hated me in the lab I taught, because I'd give'em a "Tough. That's the real world for ya." when the graphs don't match! I thought I was bad enough, when I had a calculator that would give me 10 digit "accuracy"! :-) To borrow/turn a phrase: "Measure twice, cut once. Then cut again when it doesn't fit!" -- Brad Whitehurst | Aerospace Research Lab rbw3q@Virginia.EDU | We like it hot...and fast. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 1993 19:18 UT From: Ron Baalke Subject: Plans for Phobos/Diemos? Newsgroups: sci.space In article , rabjab@golem.ucsd.edu (Jeff Bytof) writes... >Are there any current plans to land in Phobos and/or Diemos? > No plans at the moment. The Soviets' Phobos mission in 1989 would have landed "hoppers" on Phobos, but both spacecraft failed before being able to achieve this. There is a resurgence of Mars missions this decade. Mars Observer is on its way and will arrive in August. The Soviets will launch a spacecraft to Mars in 1994 and another one in 1996. The MESUR mission (still pending approval) would send 16 landers to Mars, the first launch scheduled for 1996. ___ _____ ___ /_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Ron Baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov | | | | __ \ /| | | | Jet Propulsion Lab | ___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ M/S 525-3684 Telos | If you don't stand for /___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | something, you'll fall |_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | for anything. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1993 18:10:24 GMT From: Ed McCreary Subject: Plans for Phobos/Diemos? Newsgroups: sci.space >>>>> On Tue, 23 Feb 1993 18:05:16 GMT, rabjab@golem.ucsd.edu (Jeff Bytof) said: JB> Are there any current plans to land in Phobos and/or Diemos? The last Soviet mission to mars was going to land a "hopper" on Phobos. It would hop around on a pogo stick like mechanism and collect samples for remote analysis. Unfortunately, the soviets have never been very lucky with mars missions and either gremlins or BEMs got to both probes. I'm not aware of any other plans in the works, but I could be wrong. -- Ed McCreary ,__o edm@gocart.eng.hou.compaq.com _-\_<, "If it were not for laughter, there would be no Tao." (*)/'(*) ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 93 10:14:54 GMT From: Cindy Posinski Subject: Revised RESULT: sci.geo.eosdis fails 112:14 Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,sci.space,sci.astro,sci.geo.fluids,sci.geo.geology,sci.geo.meteorology The vote for the sci.geo.eosdis newsgroup has failed due to two duplicate votes. Due to this error the final vote tally is 112 YES votes to 14 NO votes. [[ Moderator's note: requirements for passage are that there be at least 100 more YES than NO votes -- tale ]] For the people who voted for creation of the newsgroup, we have a local newsgroup named gsfc.eos which we will be happy to provide you access to to read, save and post Earth Observing System Data Information Service (EOSDIS) information. Included in this newsgroup are postings of Earth Observing System (EOS) related newsletters and articles along with posting from interested users and members of the EOSDIS community. Newsletters and news articles which will be posted to this newsgroup on a regular basis include: The Earth Observer The Processor ESDIS Weekly EOS News If you are interested in access to gsfc.eos please contact me at posinski@boa.gsfc.nasa.gov. Thank you to all who participated in the voting process. Cindy Posinski ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 93 12:40:23 -0600 From: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey Subject: Sex and Subject Lines (was Re: Sabatier Reactors.) Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1mb6d9INNscb@access.digex.com>, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes: > In article <1993Feb19.180801.18926@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes: [something Pat disagreed with] > > Fred. > Perhaps you should read all of the thread before posting. [rest of argument deleted] Hah! What a spectacle! Pat lectures somebody else on netiquette, but hasn't changed the "Subject:" line in this month-old thread. I checked; the last time anybody actually discussed Sabatier reactors was 27 January. People, could you modify your subject lines so they reflect what you're actually talking about? (I think I'll put the word "sex" in the subject of this one so everyone will read my plea.) Bill Higgins, Beam Jockey | "Based on the antiproton Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory | decay, I would estimate the Bitnet: HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET | incident occurred Internet: HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV | within the last 4.3 hours." SPAN/Hepnet: 43011::HIGGINS | --Mr. Data ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1993 19:28:27 GMT From: "Allen W. Sherzer" Subject: unnecceary violence (was: Nobody cares about Fred?) Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1mdhllINNp1@mojo.eng.umd.edu> sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu writes: >However, the initial point stands. Mr. Sherzer will not be happy until every >stinkin' burrrreo-crat in NASA is unemployed and out on the street, so America >(waive flag for knee-jerk reaction) can once again >assume it's manifest destiny in the Universe. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Hmmm.... A few months ago I was the enemy of all Loyal Americans because I was out to destroy the US aerospace insustry and give it to the Russians by buying a few Soyuz's. Now, I'm the number one agent of US flag waving and manifest destiny. $5 to whoever can tell me just when I changed sides (Doug will be the judge since he seems to be the only one who knows). Boy this New World Order sure is confusing! Allen -- +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Allen W. Sherzer | "A great man is one who does nothing but leaves | | aws@iti.org | nothing undone" | +----------------------112 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX----------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 1993 14:46:15 -0500 From: Jon Leech Subject: Weekly reminder for Frequently Asked Questions list Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,sci.space.shuttle This notice will be posted weekly in sci.space, sci.astro, and sci.space.shuttle. The Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) list for sci.space and sci.astro is posted approximately monthly. It also covers many questions that come up on sci.space.shuttle (for shuttle launch dates, see below). The FAQ is posted with a long expiration date, so a copy may be in your news spool directory (look at old articles in sci.space). If not, here are two ways to get a copy without waiting for the next posting: (1) If your machine is on the Internet, it can be obtained by anonymous FTP from the SPACE archive at ames.arc.nasa.gov (128.102.18.3) in directory pub/SPACE/FAQ. (2) Otherwise, send email to 'archive-server@ames.arc.nasa.gov' containing the single line: help The archive server will return directions on how to use it. To get an index of files in the FAQ directory, send email containing the lines: send space FAQ/Index send space FAQ/faq1 Use these files as a guide to which other files to retrieve to answer your questions. Shuttle launch dates are posted by Ken Hollis periodically in sci.space.shuttle. A copy of his manifest is now available in the Ames archive in pub/SPACE/FAQ/manifest and may be requested from the email archive-server with 'send space FAQ/manifest'. Please get this document instead of posting requests for information on launches and landings. Do not post followups to this article; respond to the author. ------------------------------ Newsgroups: sci.space From: tomas o munoz 283-4072 Subject: Re: Nobody cares about Fred? Message-Id: <1993Feb23.174743.11705@aio.jsc.nasa.gov> Sender: tomas o munoz 283-4072 Organization: MDSSC References: <1993Feb22.215423.29346@ke4zv.uucp> <1993Feb23.024446.27618@iti.org> <1993Feb23.041647.24641@aio.jsc.nasa.gov> <1993Feb23.140436.17185@iti.org> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1993 17:47:43 GMT Lines: 58 Source-Info: Sender is really news@CRABAPPLE.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU Source-Info: Sender is really isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU In article <1993Feb23.140436.17185@iti.org>, aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes: |> >Again, it's not the lack of EVA, it's the fact that you don't want |> >hydrazine all over the EVA crew. |> |> But the Russians with their backward space program don't find that to |> be a problem. Surely with our better technology we could refuel them |> in orbit possible saving billions of $$ in life cycle cost. If we really wanted to save life cycle costs, we would have stayed with the O2/H2 propulsion system before the current modular prop module design was implemented due to upfront savings. The O2/H2 system used water from Shuttle fuel cells and electrolysis to get the propellant and the catalyst. However O2/H2 was more expensive than prop modules up front. Life cycle - O2/H2 is a dream while modules are a nightmare. |> >Thrusters will stay in orbit for years at a time. They will be inspected |> >and/or refurbished every time they are returned to earth. |> |> This sort of thruster is used by every satellite in existance. They are |> extremely reliable and shouldn't need servicing this often. Agreed. I assume you mean unmanned satellites, not man-rated vehicles. |> >There's alot more to it than launching it - that's the easy part. |> |> Well the Russians have this problem solved. I'm sure we can. Doing so |> is after all, worth a lot of money. I agree totally. |> >I don't think the OMS are big enough to fuel both orbiter and SSF. |> |> Well then maybe they can be refueled with expendables. That will save |> even more money. The problem I have with this suggestion is that you're talking about adding another system, starting up a new program. Although an ELV could probably do it cheaper, you still need the Shuttle. Therefore, you have the cost for two separate launch systems. ELVs present several other logistics nightmares. Although you could build them to deliver whatever you want, how do you get stuff down. There are many other disadvantages to ELVs and many advantages as well. -- ======================================================================== Tom Munoz | munoz@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov Thought for the day [plagiarized from someone else]: Engineers think equations are an approximation of reality. Physicists think reality is an approximation of the equations. Mathematicians never make the connection. ======================================================================== ------------------------------ End of Space Digest Volume 16 : Issue 225 ------------------------------