Date: Fri, 12 Feb 93 18:06:18    
From: Space Digest maintainer <digests@isu.isunet.edu>
Reply-To: Space-request@isu.isunet.edu
Subject: Space Digest V16 #159
To: Space Digest Readers
Precedence: bulk


Space Digest                Fri, 12 Feb 93       Volume 16 : Issue 159

Today's Topics:
                    Advanced Solid Rocket Program
                  Are Landsat Satellites receivable?
                            COMET (2 msgs)
             Getting people into Space Program! (2 msgs)
                         hardware on the moon
                              hilarious
     Honorary Names (was: Today in 1986-Remember the Challenger)
                          HST repair mission
                                 info
                    Insurance/Liability slush Fun
               Kennedy launch calendar ** FAQ alert **
                        kerosene/peroxide SSTO
               Looking for astronaut plastic figures...
              NASA Professional Opportunities: NEED INFO
                          Precursors to SSF
                          Refueling Freedom
                          Sabatier Reactors.
                    Space Station Freedom Fighters
             Supporting private space activities (2 msgs)
                        synthetic spider silk?
                    Wood Pulp/Ice/Landing Strips..

	Welcome to the Space Digest!!  Please send your messages to
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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 1993 20:08:32 GMT
From: Doug Mohney <sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu>
Subject: Advanced Solid Rocket Program
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <C20EIs.1Hn@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>In article <1kuki7INN38f@mojo.eng.umd.edu> sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu writes:

>>Doesn't make much sense to promise something which would cost more per unit
>>than current tech, unless it does something wondermarvelful.
>
>You don't consider throttling and instant shutdown at any time useful?
>Or better performance and greatly reduced handling hazards?  Not to
>mention reduced pollution, much less abrasive exhaust plumes, and the
>ability to do a pad abort in the event of ignition failure...

Henry, that's all well and good, but if the new, improved hybred SRB costs $45
million more than then old ones per shot, it won't make it through the budget.
If the new, improved hybred SRBs cost less than current AND give greater
performance AND don't upset someone's pork barrel, then maybe it would work.

Bitching and moaning about the system might make you feel good, but the system
has outlasted far better people...


                    I have talked to Ehud, and lived.
  -- >                  SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU                        < --

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 1993 20:15:19 GMT
From: Doug Mohney <sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu>
Subject: Are Landsat Satellites receivable?
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <1kupj5$sql@s1.gov>, jtk@s1.gov (Jordin Kare) writes:

>6 will also have a 15 meter resolution panchromatic ("black and white")
>band for sharpening the TM images.  7 will have a second instrument called
>HRMSI ("Herm-see"), the High Resolution MultiSpectral Imager, with 5-m
>resolution in multiple color bands and 2.5 meter resolution panchromatic.

HA! Cool! Take that you lousy SPOT!

>Landsat is being returned to joint NASA/DoD control 
					 ^^^
>As noted, the Feds took back ownership for future landsats.  DOD is responsible
>for the satellite itself,                                    ^^^

Is this because of the embarassing situtation where we had to buy SPOT data in
order for air crews to do mission simulations? 

Bought a lot of French data during the Gulf War, as I seem to recall.


                    I have talked to Ehud, and lived.
  -- >                  SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU                        < --

------------------------------

Date: 7 Feb 93 21:24:29 GMT
From: "Norman P. Paterson" <norm@inqmind.bison.mb.ca>
Subject: COMET
Newsgroups: sci.space

When is the commercial COMET rocket to be launched?  Too, what type of 
vehicle is this?
Norm.

norm@inqmind.bison.mb.ca
The Inquiring Mind BBS, Winnipeg, Manitoba  204 488-1607

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1993 20:07:16 GMT
From: Brent Cullimore <asta@thermal4.den.mmc.com>
Subject: COMET
Newsgroups: sci.space

The COMET I know about is not a rocket, it is a spacecraft.
It is scheduled for launch "soon" (>March31) via a Conestoga
rocket being developed by DSI.  COMET itself is by WESTAR,
a commercial division of Westinghouse space.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 93 19:09:09 GMT
From: "Edward V. Wright" <ewright@convex.com>
Subject: Getting people into Space Program!
Newsgroups: sci.space

In <1993Feb7.140043.12015@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman) writes:

>No, but offering it as an expensive Disneyworld ride to some lottery
>winner doesn't benefit society either.... Making it a sideshow ride 
>would just emphasize the apparant lack of merit of the program in the 
>common mind.

So you think Disneyland lacks merit?  Too bad.  I don't think 
Disney cares.  They're too busy laughing all the way to the bank.


>We have ideas, but we are at the stage of the mapmaker who draws
>"Here there be dragons" on empty spaces in his maps. What you're asking 
>is similar to asking Lewis and Clark to take some tourists along to take 
>a look at America. 

Oh?  So where are there vast, unmapped regions in cislunar space?


>It's fodder for explorers and researchers, but not yet for settlers 
>or tourists. Any large scale benefits for society at large, aside 
>from some remote sensing and communications, is decades away at best, 
>centuries is probably a more likely time scale.

If we follow your strategy of protect-the-Shuttle-from-competition-
at-any-cost, sure.  Except that you can't keep that game going for
decades, let alone centuries.  As soon as there's another Shuttle
crash (and there will be, denying that is just whistling in the dark),
Congress is going shut down your little space program for good.

Which means that maybe we'll get space development for a change.

Go out to your local airport and count the number of jets
taking off in one five-minute interval.  Compare that number
to NASA's five-flights-per-year, which you call a great 
accomplishment.  Just one of those planes can carry as
many passengers on a single flight as the US and Soviet
Union space programs combined have fown in the last 30
years.  And this is only one airport out of hundreds. 
  
This is because we've had a space *program* and aviation
*development*.  See the difference?

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 1993 14:54:46 -0500
From: Matthew DeLuca <matthew@oit.gatech.edu>
Subject: Getting people into Space Program!
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <ewright.729198549@convex.convex.com> ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) writes:
>In <1993Feb7.140043.12015@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman) writes:

>>No, but offering it as an expensive Disneyworld ride to some lottery
>>winner doesn't benefit society either.... Making it a sideshow ride 
>>would just emphasize the apparant lack of merit of the program in the 
>>common mind.

>So you think Disneyland lacks merit?  Too bad.  I don't think 
>Disney cares.  They're too busy laughing all the way to the bank.

Disney is a corporation and can do whatever they like; the space program 
runs off of my tax dollars, and I'd much prefer to see useful astronauts 
and payload sent up as opposed to Erma Hornswaggle from Dubuque, Iowa going
up and losing continence.

>As soon as there's another Shuttle
>crash (and there will be, denying that is just whistling in the dark),
>Congress is going shut down your little space program for good.

Baloney.  Number one, Congress isn't *quite* that stupid, and number two,
NASA has quite a constituency.  Do you have any evidence for you claim, 
other than your wishful thining?

>Go out to your local airport and count the number of jets
>taking off in one five-minute interval.  Compare that number
>to NASA's five-flights-per-year, which you call a great 
>accomplishment. 

Get with the nineties, Ed...they're running eight to nine flights a year
now, three times as many as anyone else with ten times the people.  Not
as good as it should be, but by far the best in the world.
-- 
Matthew DeLuca
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!matthew
Internet: matthew@phantom.gatech.edu

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 93 19:32:49 GMT
From: Anton Gaidos <agaidos@pcbcad.next.com>
Subject: hardware on the moon
Newsgroups: sci.space

I was whatching NASA Select yesterday, Apollo moon stuff when my wife  
and I began wondering about all the stuff left behind. We noted that  
the Rover's camara panned up to follow the moduale's acsent and my  
wife said "now it is all alone".
 Then the narrator went on to say the lunar mod was released before  
burn back to earth. What happened to them? Did these moduales crash  
to the moon or drift out to space or fall into some kind of lunar  
orbit?
 Does anybody know if any of the experiments or hardware still work  
or how long some of the stuff did work? When was the last time one of  
those camaras were turned on? Do the siesmonitors still send back  
data? 
 The Voyager space craft have lasted so long It seemed like there was  
a chance many of these things may have worked well into the Seventies  
if not longer even though they came from an earlier technology.
 We were pretty interested in knowing if it was planned to explore  
these sites in the future to see the effects of long term exposure. I  
can't help fantasing about someone someday charging the old Rover  
batteries to see if it will work again like someone now finding an  
old piece of equitment in a long forgetten barn.
 Anybody have any information for me?
Anton

-- NewsGrazer, a NeXTstep(tm) news reader, posting --
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(06YT;VX*?0IN
`

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1993 20:12:19 GMT
From: Dillon Pyron <pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com>
Subject: hilarious
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.privacy

In article <6FEB199317111584@pavo.concordia.ca>, jt_rask@pavo.concordia.ca (RASKU, JASON T.) writes:
>In article <1993Feb6.183234.7579@fuug.fi>, an8785@anon.penet.fi (Tesuji) writes...
>> 
>>Get a life.  Get *seven*.  Ha ha.
>
>Is there anything that can be done to prevent anon postings in groups that 
>there is no reason to post anonomously?  I CAN see some people who don't 
>have access to a group posting anonomously but I'm sure that consideration 
>can be made for them.  Is there ANY way that a UNIVERSAL kill file can be 
>created in order to keep people from posting GARBAGE anonomusly?  There is 
>NO reason to not post publicly if you are posting something you feel is of 
>worth unless you CAN'T post any other way.  What does the rest of the net 
>think of this?

There is a discussion going on right now in the news admin policy group.  In
addition, penet.fi is apparently reconsidering their current policy, and may
limit anon posting to groups where it is appropriate (recovery groups,
personals).

Followups to alt.privacy
--
Dillon Pyron                      | The opinions expressed are those of the
TI/DSEG Lewisville VAX Support    | sender unless otherwise stated.
(214)462-3556 (when I'm here)     |
(214)492-4656 (when I'm home)     |"I wish I was dead" said Moxie.
pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com          |"May your every wish come true" replied Spam
PADI DM-54909                     |      _Bored of the Rings_

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 93 20:28:21 GMT
From: Henry Spencer <henry@zoo.toronto.edu>
Subject: Honorary Names (was: Today in 1986-Remember the Challenger)
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.space.shuttle

In article <1993Feb8.134220.6281@tpl68k0.tplrd.tpl.oz.au> peten@tplrd.tpl.oz.au (Peter Nosworthy) writes:
>I think there is a rocket (or some piece of rocket hardware)
>named after Greg Jarvis.

Hughes named its large-booster project after Jarvis (who was a Hughes
employee).  Unfortunately, despite considerable effort and a later
partnership with Boeing on it, Hughes never got the Jarvis booster off
the ground.  There wasn't enough demand for launches of large payloads,
and the government (with some help from existing US launch companies)
decided it didn't want to chance buying a new launcher.  (So it bought
a version of Delta that existed only on paper.)
-- 
C++ is the best example of second-system| Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
effect since OS/360.                    |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 93 20:42:55 GMT
From: Steinn Sigurdsson <steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu>
Subject: HST repair mission
Newsgroups: sci.space

There's a faint rumour that the "return-to-Earth" option
for the HST mission has been re-opened and that a committee [sic]
has been set up to look at that option [again].

Anyone know whatsup? Are there new concerns over the EVA
schedule or is this out of the blue. 

|  Steinn Sigurdsson	|I saw two shooting stars last night		|
|  Lick Observatory	|I wished on them but they were only satellites	|
| steinly@lick.ucsc.edu |Is it wrong to wish on space hardware?		|
| "standard disclaimer"	|I wish, I wish, I wish you'd care - B.B. 1983	|

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 93 18:53:12 -0500
From: Aurag Hassan <aurag@ere.umontreal.ca>
Subject: info



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1993 17:44:34 GMT
From: "Edward V. Wright" <ewright@convex.com>
Subject: Insurance/Liability slush Fun
Newsgroups: sci.space

In <1993Feb5.141720.1@acad3.alaska.edu> nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu writes:

>Maybe the US can start their own
>Lloyds for space related projects.. 
>Use the money left over in the "Insurance"
>fund for the next year.. 

Uh, what money left over?  The record of the space-insurance
industry is that they pay out more money than they take in.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 93 19:40:24 GMT
From: John Butler <jhb@dcs.ed.ac.uk>
Subject: Kennedy launch calendar ** FAQ alert **
Newsgroups: sci.space

I'm looking for a calendar of scheduled launches for Kennedy (friend
heading for Orlando, April).  I read the FAQ but ames.arc.nasa.gov has
been refusing my ftp connects even in the middle of the night U.S. time
for two or three days now.

Q1) Is it down/busy, is it restricted to U.S. internet addresses or am I
    being stooopid...?
Q2) (FAQ alert) where can I get this info that *will* talk to me?
-- 
John Butler                        email: jhb@dcs.ed.ac.uk
Department of Computer Science
University of Edinburgh            phone: (+44) (0)31-650-5181
Edinburgh EH9 3JZ, UK.             fax:   (+44) (0)31-667-7209

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1993 16:42:52 GMT
From: Dave Stephenson <stephens@geod.emr.ca>
Subject: kerosene/peroxide SSTO
Newsgroups: sci.space

I must put in two bits worth. I have had a paper waiting for publication
in JPAS for a couple of years that suggests H2O2 for SS sounding rockets.
I am trying to dig out (and it is deep) some notes on a back yard
experiment done in Canada in 1960's using peroxide, kerosense and slush
sodium. It worked and everyone survived, but the project was never
funded. Note the British launched their satellite Prospero, on the

Black Arrow R3, THAT HAD ALREADY BEEN CANCELLED. A unique record in
space history. The last remaining Black Arrow is in the Science Museum 
in London. 

--
Dave Stephenson
Geodetic Survey of Canada
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Internet: stephens@geod.emr.ca

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1993 19:10:47 GMT
From: "Daniel A. Segel" <daniels@netcom.com>
Subject: Looking for astronaut plastic figures...
Newsgroups: sci.space

I'm looking for some plastic figures, about 6" high, of astronauts
doing various astronaut-like things such as planting a flag, holding
a camera, etc.

I've seen them for sale at Kennedy Space Center (I think), but have
been unable to locate them back home (West Coast).

Does anybody know of a mail-order source for this kind of thing, or
at least some ideas as to where to look? I've already checked the
gift shop at NASA/Moffett Field with no luck...

Thanks,

Daniel S.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 93 20:49:21 GMT
From: Len Bucuvalas <lpb@florida.swdc.stratus.com>
Subject: NASA Professional Opportunities: NEED INFO
Newsgroups: sci.space

Someone once posted a list of job opportunities that exists
today along with educational requirements necessary to fill
those spots.

That posting I gather was extracted from a document of some
sort. My daughter has recently been asking about what
space-oriented high-tech fields exist and what has to 
be done to meet the grade....

If anyone has any information at all that can help me: a book
(author, publisher, title, ISBN #), an online file, anything
at all...please Email to lpb@stratus.swdc.stratus.com

Big Time Mucho Appreciation Folks!!!!!! ;^)

Len Bucuvalas
--
*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*
The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
		-- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 93 20:00:15 GMT
From: Steinn Sigurdsson <steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu>
Subject: Precursors to SSF
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <1993Feb8.024731.16105@iti.org> aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes:


   >The degree to which the actual Intelsat rescue mission differed from the
   >water tank simulations was alarming to the SSF program, '

   Well it's about bloody time!

Wow! Allen, you spent a lot of time explaining to everyone how
the Intelsat rescue was a criminal waste of time and money.
Are you now accepting it was a reasonable way to learn about
surprises, or that the problems they found were "obvious"?

|  Steinn Sigurdsson	|I saw two shooting stars last night		|
|  Lick Observatory	|I wished on them but they were only satellites	|
| steinly@lick.ucsc.edu |Is it wrong to wish on space hardware?		|
| "standard disclaimer"	|I wish, I wish, I wish you'd care - B.B. 1983	|

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1993 19:18:33 GMT
From: "Allen W. Sherzer" <aws@iti.org>
Subject: Refueling Freedom
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <C257Gy.10J@news.cso.uiuc.edu> jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins) writes:

>By the way Allen, I should point out that paper airplanes and vaporware don't
>have operational costs.  

Nonsense. Boeing is offering to gurantee operational costs and purchase
price of a B-777 and it is only a paper airplane. Alternatives to 
Shuttle exist which involve no more technical risk.

    Allen
-- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Allen W. Sherzer | "A great man is one who does nothing but leaves        |
|  aws@iti.org     |  nothing undone"                                       |
+----------------------127 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX----------------------+

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 93 10:44:04 GMT
From: Pat <prb@access.digex.com>
Subject: Sabatier Reactors.
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <C23toE.EHI@zoo.toronto.edu> henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>duration mission even had LH2/LOX tanks in the cargo bay.  It was only
>Centaur that was banned from the cargo bay.


So why was centaur banned?  couldn't they have made a few changes to
make it "Shuttle-safe"

pat

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1993 17:26:09 -0600
From: pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering)
Subject: Space Station Freedom Fighters

WAR IS PEACE
SLAVERY IS FREEDOM

Big Brother is watching us... and lobbying!

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 93 19:24:06 GMT
From: "Edward V. Wright" <ewright@convex.com>
Subject: Supporting private space activities
Newsgroups: sci.space

In <C23uDn.ErC@zoo.toronto.edu> henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:

>You try driving 1 mph along a smooth, well known road with no obstacles,
>blindfolded!  Now try doing it with the added constraint that there are
>a bunch of baby ducks running along beside you and in front of you, and
>you're not allowed to squash any of them... they'll *usually* get out
>of your way...

If the crawler were about to squash a baby bird, would it
really be able to stop in time?  Even at 1 mph, it must
have an incredible momentum.  

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 93 21:26:50 GMT
From: Henry Spencer <henry@zoo.toronto.edu>
Subject: Supporting private space activities
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <ewright.729199446@convex.convex.com> ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) writes:
>>... Now try doing it with the added constraint that there are
>>a bunch of baby ducks running along beside you and in front of you, and
>>you're not allowed to squash any of them...
>
>If the crawler were about to squash a baby bird, would it
>really be able to stop in time?  Even at 1 mph, it must
>have an incredible momentum.  

I don't know how fast the braking is, but clearly there are limits.
In any case, I was using "baby ducks" as the scaled-down equivalent of
all the other vehicles that accompany the crawler when it rolls out.
They keep their distance, because they know full well what happens if
they get under those treads, but you still want to be able to see
something like a stalled car up ahead.
-- 
C++ is the best example of second-system| Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
effect since OS/360.                    |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 93 19:34:02 GMT
From: "Paul A. Voytas" <cc843@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Subject: synthetic spider silk?
Newsgroups: sci.space

Does anyone have any information on the properties of synthetic spider
silk? I read something about it a while back but can't find the
reference now. In particular I'm interested in composition and
strength information.

thanx,
pav
-- 
Paul Voytas
uwnuc0.physics.wisc.edu

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Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1993 16:53:22 GMT
From: Dave Stephenson <stephens@geod.emr.ca>
Subject: Wood Pulp/Ice/Landing Strips..
Newsgroups: sci.space

nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu writes:

>Anyone who has followed arctic/antarctic explorationknows about using ICe as a
>landing strip.. Here in Alaska it was and in some places still used.. Namely
>Little Diomede island has no landing strip until Feb/Mar when the shore ice
>freezes.. 
>Using wood pulp for a additive for a landing strip/material is soemthing I had
>heard rumors of, but not sure where until someone mentioned landing strips, ice
>and wood pulp.. I have heard of other uses for the mixture, just not sure
>where...



>Michael Adams
>Alias: Morgoth/Ghost Wheel 
>nsmca@acad2.alaska.edu

Oh Dear, You have raised the subject of ***HABAKKUK****. In 1940 the 
British started a program to construct a 2 Million Ton Aircraft carrier
out of wood pulp reinforced ice. This wonder material was called Pycrete
after its inventor a DR. Pyke. It was bullet proof, could be machined like
wood, and floated. And like Halley's comet it did not melt very quickly.
A coating of insulating pulp formed over a hole and sealed it. 
Re-inforced ice has been underexamination for protecting laser battle
stations in orbit, and for deep space rocket. Popisicle stages.
Naturally Canada with lots of ice and wood got the job. A mock up was
built and floated one summer in Lake Patricia in Jasper Park Alberta.
A 1 H.P. refrigerator kept it frozen. To hide it from German spies
it was disguised as a boat house. At the Quebec City conference a large
slab of Pycrete was the center of attention. To prove it was bullet 
proof a British Boffin grabbed a gun and shot at it. The bullet
bounced off and winged an American Admiral. Better luck next time...
After the war work on re-inforced runways was carried out at Fort
Smith N.W.T., and a program to examine ice structure has continued
on and off ever since in various Arctic research institutes. 

One day reinforced ice ships will cruise the depths of interplanetary 
space.

If on its maiden voyage from Mars to Saturn a mighty Pykrete liner of
space runs into a metallic asteroid the media headlines of the day will 
broadcast the sad news that:

THE ICE SHIP TITANIC HAS STRUCJK AN IRON BURG AND BEEN LOST!!
 

--
Dave Stephenson
Geodetic Survey of Canada
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Internet: stephens@geod.emr.ca

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End of Space Digest Volume 16 : Issue 159
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