Date: Thu, 4 Feb 93 05:04:22 From: Space Digest maintainer Reply-To: Space-request@isu.isunet.edu Subject: Space Digest V16 #122 To: Space Digest Readers Precedence: bulk Space Digest Thu, 4 Feb 93 Volume 16 : Issue 122 Today's Topics: An 'agitator' replies (was: Clinton's Promises...) extreme responses to Challenger transcript (2 msgs) Georgia(CIS) Statement.. Japanese Space Station 45Billion? Launching using Pegasus Mars or Bust by 2000. News/Ads/Dream for the future.. Satellite Photo Analysis Shuttle tiles Space Camp (was re: Challenger Transcript) Space Grown Semiconductors Well.. Words of Wisdom : -) Welcome to the Space Digest!! Please send your messages to "space@isu.isunet.edu", and (un)subscription requests of the form "Subscribe Space " to one of these addresses: listserv@uga (BITNET), rice::boyle (SPAN/NSInet), utadnx::utspan::rice::boyle (THENET), or space-REQUEST@isu.isunet.edu (Internet). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Feb 1993 21:13:52 -0500 From: Matthew DeLuca Subject: An 'agitator' replies (was: Clinton's Promises...) Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993Feb3.012652.4178@iti.org> aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes: >In article <1kmr1sINNglb@phantom.gatech.edu> matthew@phantom.gatech.edu (Matthew DeLuca) writes: >>Really? Let me see...two or three times a year, they put two or three guys >>in a capsule and shoot them up to a station, where they trade off with a >>couple of guys there and come back down. >Which is far far more than we can do. BTW, it also means they spend three >to four days in space for every day we do. They go up three times a year, we go up eight. They send up two or three people, we send up five to eight. So for every ten people they send up, we are sending somewhere between forty and seventy. I wouldn't say they are doing 'far far' more than we are. >>I'm not sure what they do there... >Pretty much the same thing we do; except they can do a lot more. Oh, they >do have a facility which produces commercial semiconductor materials. NASA >has no plans for that for the next 20 years or so. So what are they doing? I haven't heard of any real results from their work up there. I'm sure there are some, but they can't be that earth-shattering. As for their semiconductor facility, that's great...and I'm saying that without sarcasm. But with all the cheap launch capacity and available on- orbit astronaut time, I'm surprised that's the best they can do. >>My point is that if Soviet equipment is so cheap and wonderful, how come the >>Russians haven't gone anywhere with it? >Largely because they are a poor nation I suspect. Even at their height >in now{turns out that they didn't have all that much. Agreed...but if their stuff costs a tenth or a fifth of what ours does, even their relative poverty should be enough for some pretty impressive feats; yet we've seen very little. >But the point isn't what they can do, it is what WE can do with intelligent >leveraging. Spending 10% on Russian hardware could save us billions. What's >wrong with that? Part of the point I am making is that *if* things are as good as you claim, they should have been able to do a lot more than the have. The conclusion that I am drawing is that things *aren't* as good as yor are claiming. You have quite the reputation for pulling numbers out of thin air, and the fact that the Soviets, with all their cheap hardware, were unable to do anything more than they have points to some problems with your conclusions. Furthermore, I am not absolutely opposed to spending money on Russian gear; as I said in a post late last week, using Soyuz for the ACRV is a reasonable plan. But when people start proposing ongoing procurement for launch services from the Russians that would cripple the U.S. industry, or scrapping Freedom and leasing space on Mir, then I start thinking there's something wrong. Believe it or not, there's more to space than the almighty dollar. >>They've been stuck at a low level of activity... >I look at their launch manifests and then look at ours. I think we are the >ones stuck at the low level of activity. They can do this since they >don't pay 10 times what they need to for launches like we do. Their rate of launch is a direct consequence of their inability to make spacecraft with a decent lifespan. They may pay 1/10 what we do to launch a rocket, but they have to launch 10 times as often as we do. Dollar for dollar, we probably get more from our satellites than we do. We certainly have more cpaable satellites, if not as many. >>>Let me get this straight, our system costs ten times as much as theirs >>>and only gives 20% of the time in space. Yet you think it is more advanced? >>Yes, because we're the ones developing the upcoming generations of space >>transport. >>Capsules were the first generation, and the Shuttle is the second. >Great! I hope we quit at the second generation. Every new generation >doubles the cost of access to space. We won't be able to launch NASA's >third generation system because it will be too expensive. You're drawing conclusions as to trends in launch costs based on two data points? Way to stick your foot in your mouth. Besides, I didn't specifically mention NASA. If you notice below, I consider SSTO the next generation. Since you keep harping on the low cost of this technology, I'm surprised at the dig above on costs. >>We're already working on the third and fourth, with things like SSTO and >>NASP. >NASA is spending it's SSTO efforts trying to kill the SDIO effort. As for >NASP, NASP is dead. (BTW, those backward Russians are doing more scramjet >testing than we are). Again, I didn't mention NASA, you did. As for NASP, maybe it's dead and maybe it isn't. People like to predict the imminent death of a number of programs (how many times has Henry Spencer declared the ASRM program dead?) that somehow don't quite die. I agree, it is unlikely that it will fly in the manner originally proposed, but the idea as a whole is far from dead. Finally, someone pointed out on sci.military that Sandia Labs has a very interesting high-mach program underway...I wouldn't count the U.S. out of the scramjet race, even if the Russians have strapped a couple of test articles to rockets. Their testing may well be a compensation for their lack of capability in computational fluid dynamics. >>Listening to you, the Russians should already be all over the... >All I am saying is that we can intelligently leverage our efforts using >some of their hardware. Why is that such a problem? Because the experience of the Soviet space program over the last thirty years leads me to believe that there's far more to a viable space program than just cheap hardware. -- Matthew DeLuca Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!matthew Internet: matthew@phantom.gatech.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1993 01:21:40 GMT From: Tesuji Subject: extreme responses to Challenger transcript Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.privacy,comp.org.eff.talk X-Anon-To:sci.space,sci.astro,alt.privacy,comp.org.eff.talk As I look at the article, I would agree that it seems more likely than not to be concocted. (more from linguistic reasons than technical, although "2000 MPH" seems absurd to me, too.) But I think the issue here is an emotional one, not a technical one -- that is, even if the article were totally fabricated, that does not mean it necessarily is completely *false*. That is, could it have portrayed a possible outcome? If so, then in making decisions about redundancy, safety, escape strategies, NASA management style, this kind of "fiction" may make a wholer picture to balance parameters, financial *and* human cost. Sort of like televising executions, which most agree would be gruesome, some believe that it may lead to a fairer appraisal of constitutional safeguards. It is sad that this is emotionally trying to the families and to the readers of the newsgroups. I believe that on the balance, though, it leads to useful discussion. It has been amusing to see the extreme responses to the posting of the Challenger transcript; the burghers with their torches are storming the castle again. It is a wonder to me to see these outlandishly outrageous responses to things such as viral attacks: people suggest castration or execution to the perpetrators. When Len Rose was caught with a hacked copy of AT&Ts login.c, people suggested banning him from employment for life or other punishments that aren't even meted out for murderers in US society. It is especially ironic to see the cretins from Bell Labs heading up the peasants ready to torch me for my posting. Bell Labs -- who help make widespread electronic communication possible. It reminds me of the XEROX PARC corporate solicitation from employees for "security slogans"; I thought the best entry was the one by a friend of mine "If you want security, don't get a Xerox machine!". It didn't win though. My posting was not libelous, obscene, or otherwise criminal. Error and bad taste are protected freedoms in this country. If you don't like my or any other postings, hit N. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help@anon.penet.fi. Due to the double-blind system, any replies to this message will be anonymized, and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned. Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to admin@anon.penet.fi. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 1993 04:28:50 GMT From: Tarl Neustaedter Subject: extreme responses to Challenger transcript Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.privacy,comp.org.eff.talk In article <1993Feb3.021308.6018@fuug.fi> an8785@anon.penet.fi (Tesuji) writes: >It has been amusing to see the extreme responses to the posting of the >Challenger transcript; the burghers with their torches are storming the >castle again. Had you simply posted that fabricated transcript, you would have been flamed for posting something inappropriate and frankly libelious (yes, you accuse NASA of a coverup. That's libelious). And it would have ended. The extreme reactions come from the fact that you don't have the BALLS to even post it under your own name, you feel you have to hide behind an anonymous posting service. Go away, squirm back under the rock you crawled out of. And kindly don't bother those of us who find skulking in the shawdows to be offensive. -- Tarl Neustaedter tarl@sw.stratus.com Marlboro, Mass. Stratus Computer Disclaimer: My employer is not responsible for my opinions. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 93 08:01:21 GMT From: nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu Subject: Georgia(CIS) Statement.. Newsgroups: sci.space #227 GGOM@COIRA.KHETA* Wed 27 Jan 1993 09:46:58 ( 136/ 6461) T From: Dr. George V. Gomelaury Subject: Hello (not from Russia but) from Georgia From: ggom@coira.kheta.georgia.su Dear Mr. Adams, Greetings from Georgia. Please forgive me for the delay of the answer. Our company "Georgia Net Ltd." is a privet company. We are among the founders and brokers of the "Electronic Exchange ExNet Ltd.". "ExNet Ltd." covers the territory of the former USSR and Baltic states. It permits to offer any kind of goods or other things and sign contracts 24 hours a day through electronic network. From the other hand our group presents the Scientific Engineering Center for Computer & Information Technology - "SciEnCe CITe Ltd." which is the state company. Two years ago the Center installed the first Internet UUCP E-Mail node - ggom@kheta.georgia.su - in Tbilisi, capital of Georgia. Our node serves Georgian Parliament, Georgian Academy of Sciences and it's more than 40 institutes, Cognac and Champaign Factories, Pharmacological Committee of Georgia, Georgian brunches of UNESCO and UNIDO, other organizations, privet companies etc. Consisting of high qualified specialists in the fields of optics, laser science, theoretical and experimental physics, astrophysics, CCD imaging, computers, analog and digital electronics, data and image analysis, international computer networking, our group know English, French, Georgian, German, Russian, Spanish and other European languages, and can take part in any scientific research, engineering and design of electronics, software and complicated earth and space born computer controlled devices. I hope this information will be valid for you. If you have any more questions please do not hesitate to contact me. With kind regards, Dr. George Gomelaury Director of the "SciEnCe CITe Ltd.", Vice Director of the "Georgia Net Ltd.", Expert of the Investigation Service of the Georgian Parliament, Member of LIA. My personal background follows: I was born in Tbilisi in 1951 as the second son in the family of Professor Vakhtang Gomelaury, a specialist in the field of heat and mass transfer, and his wife Tinatin Tushmalishvily, Professor of the Department of the West European Languages and Literature of the State University in Tbilisi. I completed a physical-mathematical school in Tbilisi, received my B.S. degree and, after diploma work, in 1973 an M.S. from the State University of Tbilisi in the Department of Physics. In 1974, I continued post-graduate studies in Moscow in the Lebedev Institute of the Academy of Sciences of the USSR (FIAN) in the laboratory of Nobel Prize winner Alexander Prokhorov. In 1981, in the Lebedev Institute, I received a scientific Ph.D. in the field of physics and mathematics for the work: "Laser Induced Damage in Optical materials Caused by the Radiation of Lasers of Middle IR Region". During seven years of work in Prokhorov's laboratory, two IR single mode Q-switched ERBIUM 3+ lasers (CaF2 - 2.76mkm & YAG - 2.94mkm) were designed and a Method of Nonlinear Optical Mixing was implemented for the investigation of these lasers. In 1981, I returned to Tbilisi and joined Astrophysical Observatory in Abastumany of the Georgian Academy of Sciences where at present, as chief of the Laboratory for coherent Optics and Infrared Astrophysics, I lead research on "Computerized Detector of Infrared Radiation Based on Nonlinear Optical Mixing" for use in astronomical and ecological investigations. During the last year I founded and now head a Center for Information Technology, where the first Georgian E-mail node was installed for the needs of the Georgian Academy of Sciences, universities and high schools. I have authored more than 17 papers for different publications and conferences. I know Georgian, Russian, English, German, Spanish. I am married and have a daughter, Ia, who is 15 years old. My wife, Nino, is a specialist of ancient arts and has an M.S. degree and works in the Institute of the History of the Georgian Arts of the Georgian Academy of Sciences. As I am sure you are aware, conditions in the former Soviet republics are financially difficult. The budget of our group's laboratory is very poor. We have absolutely no hard currency available to participate in international conferences or visiting leading scientific centers of our profile neither to afford membership in any organization. We want to contribute to improving Georgia's scientific and economic situation, and need more contact with the colleagues from outside scientific world to expedite this. We believe that we have made significant scientific contributions despite our forced very long isolation and difficult conditions but we are hampered in our efforts at information interchange with the world scientific community. We are hopeful that conditions here will improve, and believe that close contacts with our American collaborators will help us to increase our contributions to the world scientific community. With kind regards and good wishes, George Gomelaury Lab. for Coherent Optics & IR Astrophysics 2a, Kazbegi Avenue Tbilisi-42, Republic of Georgia Tel.: 007(8832)38-3571, home: 007(8832)224-237 E-mail (Internet): ggom@kheta.georgia.su ggom@coira.kheta.georgia.su Just for information purposes.. == Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 93 08:27:00 GMT From: nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu Subject: Japanese Space Station 45Billion? Newsgroups: sci.space And nice thing about the Japanese is that the company who is building it will not probably care who they sell use to.. And might be easier to work with thean the monopolistic American (US) or Russian Space Programs.. == Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1993 05:39:43 GMT From: Frank Crary Subject: Launching using Pegasus Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1kn1d9INNg45@rave.larc.nasa.gov> claudio@nmsb.larc.nasa.gov (Claudio Egalon) writes: >There are some talk in the Brazilian community that the Brazilian >satellite, which is scheduled to be launched from a Pegasus rocket, >does not have any insurance. I am wondering if any one here in the >NET could coment on that whether it is true or not. It seems kind of >dumb not insure this satellite since Pegasus was used only twice in >the past and in the second mission did not work very well. It might be a very smart choice: Imagine how much an insurance company might ask, to cover such a high-risk launch. The Brazilians would be betting their savings in insurance costs against the risks of a failure. It's a pretty high stakes gamble, but it still might be a smart move. Frank Crary CU Boulder ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 93 08:15:23 GMT From: nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu Subject: Mars or Bust by 2000. News/Ads/Dream for the future.. Newsgroups: sci.space That is the reason why I mentioned the news media.. Without them, any project no matter hwo great will not get off the ground, atleast in the public mind.. Maybe have Star Trek DS9 have a scale model of SSF (SS Fred) in a promininent place., I know Star Trek and alot of people watch it.. People don't want hard science, they want fantasy these days,, maybe in a few years theyll go the other way.. Possible ways to get the US population involved would be the Earth to Mars Solar Sail Race or some other race? Maybe talk to Clinton and try to get a more scientific view for them.. So far science has had a hard time. People are starting to blame science for the pollution problems and the ecology.. People go thru cycles, from Fantasy to Science Fiction.. And he trick is to know what point they are and design adds and projects for it.. Space Station Freedom is a long term dead fish project.. And it needs to go up or die soon,.. People are getting tired of hearing about its "failure" to get into orbit.. Give people to much science and they get bored.. Yes maybe give thme a dream to work towards.. Try to get Ted Turner involved and maybe a Playboy Bunny involved and Star Trek Involved.. Mabe a movie called mission to mars, with what we know about Space Station Freedom and the Mars mission as part of it.. A big budget sci-fi flick with some hard science rwrapped in fantasy/sci-fi.. == Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Feb 93 11:40:33 PST From: Mike - Medwid Subject: Satellite Photo Analysis Newsgroups: sci.space What does the job of "Satellite Photo Analyst" entail on a day to day basis and what qualifies someone for such work? Also where is this kind of work done in the US? Please email amigan@cup.portal.com ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 93 05:46:18 GMT From: John Nagle Subject: Shuttle tiles Newsgroups: sci.space >-> -Subject: Re: Let's be more specific (was: Stupid Shut Cost arguements) >-> -Shuttle designers... chose to use refractory silicates in the form of >-> -tiles. After the first shuttle flights, it turned out, as I recall, that the thermal protection requirements had been somewhat overestimated, and that titanium-based thermal protection would have worked. I think Buran uses titanium, avoiding all those annoying problems with machining and glueing ceramics. There's been some recent Japanese work on the next step after composite materials, materials whose composition changes through the material. Materials have been fabricated that are ceramic on one surface and metal at the other, with a smooth transition in between. This allows the creation of materials with good refractory properties that can be bolted or welded on the backing surface. If the Japanese shuttle ever flies, it may use these materials. Meanwhile, there is interest in using them for razor blades. John Nagle ------------------------------ Date: 2 Feb 93 16:53:01 GMT From: Curtis Roelle Subject: Space Camp (was re: Challenger Transcript) Newsgroups: sci.space dsblack@iastate.edu (Vilkata TDK) writes: >In roelle@uars_mag.jhuapl.edu (Curtis Roelle) writes: >>dsblack@iastate.edu (Vilkata TDK) writes: >>Until now I'd been an admirer of the Space Camp, particularly for the >>marvelous experience it provides youngsters, allowing them to live the >>life other kids dream of, inside involvement with NASA. But what have >>they been teaching these kids? That for two minutes forty-five >>seconds the crew of the Challenger "screamed, cursed, and prayed for >>three hellish minutes?" >Well, first off, most of the "youngsters" who go there are more mature than >the average. (Notice I said "most".) No argument from me there. I have been impressed with the space campers I have had contact with in the past. However, your earlier post raised questions regarding the history lessons being taught to our future space workers, and more than likely, future astronauts. > What have they been teaching us? The >truth. It's not like they gave a seminar on it or anything. But some of us >were talking (It happens.) with some of the staff, and they told us because >we were interested. They never said it the way you quoted a different previous >article ("screamed, cursed...hellish minutes"); they told us that although >some of the crew might have been knocked out (for lack of a better phrase) at >first, probably all of them were conscious for most of the fall. Didn't you agree that the part about the crew's ordeal during the three-minute descent, as described by Tesuji, was "the truth". Here is a replay of your article; I have deleted two of Tesuji's paragraphs and highlighted (***) part of the reply: ---------- begin article ------------- dsblack@iastate.edu (Vilkata TDK) writes: >In <728437280.AA00100@eilc.fidonet.org> Tim.Tyler@f48.n374.z1.fidonet.org (Tim Tyler) writes: >>29 Jan 93 22:58, Tesuji wrote to All: >> T> A secret NASA tape reveals that the crew of the shuttle Challenger >> T> not only survived the explosion that ripped the vessel apart; they >> T> screamed, cried, cursed and prayed for three hellish minutes before >> T> they slammed into the Atlantic and perished on January 28, 1986. [ .... further alleged details by Tesuji -- deleted ...] >>Well, that and the rest of that post was certainly the most tasteless thing I've seen here in ages... >Why do you think it's tasteless? It happens to be the truth. I went to Space *** ***** >Camp for two years, and lots of those people have information the general >public usually doesn't. In fact, the first year, my group's counselor was the >daughter of astronaut Robert L. Stewart, Jenny (very nice). I don't remember >if it was she or someone else, but someone told us that the last thing they >heard _before the explosion_ was something to the effect of "Uh oh." >The truth is, they were all conscious (sp?) and aware of what was happening. >Which makes it that much more terrible, but that's Life, and a lot of us like >to know the whole truth. ---- end of repost ---------------------------------------- Oh, now I see. After calling Tesuji's description "the truth", you then give truth a second, more passive, definition: "truth is they were all conscious and aware of what was happening." >>I really doubt that Space Camp would teach such silly things, and my >>feeling is that the above posting is [delberately?] misleading, but then >>again, I've never been to Space Camp have I, so maybe I'm wrong. >So basically you doubt that I'm telling the truth. No, no, no... I believe you are telling us what you yourself were told. I am merely trying to find out what the faculty of Space Camp are telling campers. In your post, you appeared to back Tesuji's claims, which have been discredited in more than one posting on sci.space. In particular, the velicity and time anomalies. You said, "it happens to be the truth." >Oh, well, it's a free >world, and I don't really want to start a flame war with people with closed >minds. Although sci.space really isn't the place for closed-minded people... >However, I can assure you that my posting was not misleading, especially >deliberately. Maybe not intentionally, but it was misleading. Two definitions of "the truth". >I'm almost offended... Sorry that you took it personally. My questions were directed at the Space Camp program, of which you are a product. Certainly campers have a right to know the perils as well as the pleasures of what may lay ahead for them should they persue careers in the space program. But when you respond to a posting lke Tesuji's, saying "it happens to be the truth" because insiders at Space Camp told you so, I became concerned because it either means there hasn't been a full disclosure by NASA, or Camp officials are spreading rumor. While a full disclosure may be nobody's business, lack thereof in our present society implies the "C" word (coverup). The Challenger astronauts were public figures. That mission in particular had as one of its goals, education, including a public school teacher. Their lives were in the public's eye and, like the potential danger they faced, the public eye is part of the job they accepted. The lives of these people were used to educate. Why should the education procedure stop with their death, since death is part of life? So if the faculty at Space Camp, or anyone else out there, really knows something, and are preparared to substantiate it, then come out with it so that we may all learn what death really means. Otherwise, stop spreading rumors and standing up in defense of people like Tesuji, whose motive appears to be to shock and hurt, instead of to teach and heal. Curt Roelle Opinions expressed do not represent the Customer, or its customers. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1993 02:56:46 GMT From: gawne@stsci.edu Subject: Space Grown Semiconductors Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.materials In article <1993Feb3.012652.4178@iti.org>, aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes: [Refering to the Russian space program, especially aboard Mir] > Pretty much the same thing we do; except they can do a lot more. Oh, they > do have a facility which produces commercial semiconductor materials. NASA > has no plans for that for the next 20 years or so. I've had a conversation with a Polish semiconductor scientist who got to work with some of the Mir grown crystals. His opinion (in 1989) was that they were "pretty bad." Has anybody out there actually worked with Mir grown materials recently? Does the microgravity environment really impart any desirable properties? Can astronauts (or cosmonauts) grow crystals that are useful for serious devices, given that they are generalists by training and lack the special knowledge of industrial crystallographers? My intuition is that the "commercial semiconductor materials" grown in space won't be good for much for quite a while. I'd be overjoyed if I'm wrong on this one. Please note that I've included sci.materials for followups. -Bill Gawne, Space Telescope Science Institute ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1993 05:17:24 GMT From: kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov Subject: Well.. Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.misc,rec.arts.startrek.tech nicolas produit (produit@ux5.lbl.gov) wrote: : Lets get it straight and make the experiment like that: : Someone (A) leave the earth at speed c (warp 1 relative to earth) : and go to a planet 60 light year away from earth. : When he is there he explode an atomic bomb. If you can set up the experiment, I'd like to go. But let's leave the A-bomb (and any bad grammar which might sneak in) at home. BTW, which planet did you say we're going to? The isn't much of interest at 60 ly out. -- Ken Jenks, NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov (713) 483-4368 "NASA turns dreams into realities and makes science fiction into fact" -- Daniel S. Goldin, NASA Administrator ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1993 02:05:18 GMT From: Gary Coffman Subject: Words of Wisdom : -) Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993Feb1.164757.132@cc.ic.ac.uk> atae@crab.ph.ic (Ata Etemadi) writes: >In the article of <1993Jan30.185908.17697@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.uucp >(Gary Coffman) writes: > >> Or you might contact AMSAT-NA who have flown 22 satellite payloads on >> Arianne without benefit of serialized parts or production lines. >[some lines deleted] >> Special canisters on Shuttle. Or you might want to talk live to an Astronaut >> or Cosmonaut who is using a commercial off the shelf handheld radio from ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> Motorola or Yaesu on the Shuttle and MIR. Or just listen to Dennis. > >I'll just pick up the phone and call this Astronaut or Cosmonaut. Do you >have his or her number handy :-) Next time read the posting before jumping >to conclusions. Reading Aviation Weekly or Space News doesn't make you an >expert. I'll spell it out for you: Try reading yourself. I've talked to Cosmonauts aboard Mir, they use *off the shelf* amateur radios, no fancy serialized parts or production lines, just ordinary radios anyone can buy. They *were* passed through system testing before launch of course. >| I am looking to compile a list of off-the-shelf components which I | >| can use when building an instrument. Components and/or systems which | >| are already space qualified. Get it ? | What I'm telling you is that ESA and NASA and the ex-Soviet space program fly customer *payloads* constructed from *off the shelf* parts fairly routinely. You can use the ultra-expensive parts if you wish, but it's *not required*. Some testing *is* required in any event. The *assembled* collection of parts must undergo a shake test, an outgassing test, and, if necessary, an EMC test. These tests are to protect *other* payloads from misbehavior by your system. Use of "space qualified" parts only serves to increase the reliability of *your* payload. The launching agency really doesn't care whether your payload works once it's in orbit, they get paid anyway. Only your funding agency gets tense if your payload fails to operate correctly. >> Safety critical systems on the *launchers* are held to strict standards, >> but payloads are not held to these standards. Thermal/vacuum and vibration ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> table testing, shake and bake, is required of payloads to assure that the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> payload offers no risk to the launcher or other payloads, but this is a >> fairly inexpensive procedure available from any number of testing labs. >> EMC testing is required for payload systems that will be *active* before ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> separation from the launcher, but screen rooms are commonly available ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> and inexpensive to rent. >[advert for AMSAT deleted] > >Just use a microwave for the shake and bake right :-) The procedure is NOT >"fairly inexpensive", if it was then everyone would have space qualified >their systems. Unless yours is the only instrument then you would have >to pass EMC tests. EMC = ElectroMagnetic Compatibility. Get it ? If you >have a wave experiment onboard you don't want to just be listening to your >neighbour's noise. When you have a budget of 10K for the instrument the >10K required for testing is OTT. What did I just say above? Using serialized parts does *not* relieve you of EMC testing or vibration testing or thermal/vacuum testing of *the assembled collection of parts*. That's a systems integration matter and can only be brought into compliance by *system* testing of the completed package. It is fairly simple and cheap as such things go, but you have to do it regardless of the source of your parts for any system that will be powered up during active flight. I'll agree that if your budget is only 10k and your payload costs 10k without testing that you are screwed, but *that's life*. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | ------------------------------ End of Space Digest Volume 16 : Issue 122 ------------------------------