Date: Wed, 13 Jan 93 05:00:18 From: Space Digest maintainer Reply-To: Space-request@isu.isunet.edu Subject: Space Digest V16 #039 To: Space Digest Readers Precedence: bulk Space Digest Wed, 13 Jan 93 Volume 16 : Issue 039 Today's Topics: *** BUSSARD RAMSCOOP *** Anti-atoms (was Re: Making Antimatter) Delta Clipper future space travel Goldin's future ISU (2 msgs) Let's be more specific (was: Stupid Shut Cost arguements) Mars Observer Update - 01/08/93 polar meteorites Shuttle a research tool (was: Re: Let's be more specific) (3 msgs) SNC-Meteorite source (was Re^2: Cheap Mars Rocks) Subjective Safety Measure(Re: man-rating) (2 msgs) Welcome to the Space Digest!! Please send your messages to "space@isu.isunet.edu", and (un)subscription requests of the form "Subscribe Space " to one of these addresses: listserv@uga (BITNET), rice::boyle (SPAN/NSInet), utadnx::utspan::rice::boyle (THENET), or space-REQUEST@isu.isunet.edu (Internet). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Jan 93 11:02:52 GMT From: Magnus Olsson Subject: *** BUSSARD RAMSCOOP *** Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993Jan9.043932.11081@ee.ubc.ca> davem@ee.ubc.ca (Dave Michelson) writes: >"There appears to be only one weak link in the whole enterprise: no one has >yet found isolated free quarks!" [...] >At present, theorists conjecture that quarks are confined in colourless >clusters (hadrons) but this has not been *proved*. It seems possible that >free quarks may exist. Possible, but *extremely* unlikely. Basically *all* experimental evidence points toward confinement; there are only a handful of experiments that seem to indicate free quarks, but so far none of these have been repeated. And as a QCD theorist, I strongly object to the word "conjecture" above; even though it's not been proved yet, confinement is _much_ more than mere conjecture. What is more interesting is the possibility of having charged, meta-stable particles of more exotic kinds, such as "strangelets" (colour-neutral lumps of large number of s quarks), supersymmetric particles, and so on. The word meta-stable means that the particles don't really have to be stable to catalyze fusion. I don't know the latest status of muon-catalyzed fusion, but muons may be just long-lived enought to do it. Magnus Olsson | \e+ /_ Department of Theoretical Physics | \ Z / q University of Lund, Sweden | >----< magnus@thep.lu.se, thepmo@seldc52.bitnet | / \===== g PGP key available via finger or on request | /e- \q ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 15:59:37 MET From: PHARABOD@FRCPN11.IN2P3.FR Subject: Anti-atoms (was Re: Making Antimatter) >I was vague because I was in a hurry. Looking at the reference more >carefully (H. Poth, "Antiprotonic, Hyperonic, and Antihydrogen Atoms," >*Proceedings of the First Workshop on Antimatter Physics at Low >Energy*, Fermilab, 1986-- it may not be the definitive source of >information, but had the advantage of being on the shelf in my >office), I see that Poth says the delay between capture of a p-bar >into an atomic orbit and its annihilation is less than 1E-10 seconds >in most solids and liquids. (B. Higgins, 11 Jan 93 16:08:55 GMT) It seems that antiprotons can live inside matter far longer than was initially thought. In 1947, Fermi and Teller calculated a 10^-13 seconde value ( 0.1 picosecond). But from bubble chambers experiments with negative pions and kaons, it was inferred that the real time could be 100 picoseconds (which is the value quoted by Bill Higgins). Now, first at the KEK Japanese laboratory, and then at CERN, it has been shown that, inside liquid helium at 6 atm. pressure, 4% of the antiprotons live several microseconds. If the helium is "contaminated" with a small amount of hydrogen (0.04 %) this time is divided by about 10. Such an effect had been predicted in 1964 by G.T.Condo (Oak Ridge). According to him, the quantum numbers of some of the exotic helium atoms built in this way could prevent the immediat release of the second electron. In this case, according to Pauli's exclusion principle, deep collisions of the exotic atom with its neighboring ordinary atoms would be prevented, and the anti-proton would "fall" slowly towards the nucleus via successive electromagnetic transitions. However, it is not clear that this explanation is the good one. Many questions remain, in particular is this a specific property of helium. J. Pharabod Reference:"Antiprotons refractaires a l'annihilation", Courrier CERN, June 1992. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 93 14:28:05 GMT From: Gary Coffman Subject: Delta Clipper Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993Jan11.135902.6980@iti.org> aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes: >In article <1993Jan9.170808.18376@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman) writes: > >>>the DC-Y goals are 20,000 pounds to LEO (10K to polar) with an operational.. > >>I think we need to be a bit more specific about *which* LEO we are >>talking about. > >I disagree. The point is that it decreases cost by one to two orders >of magnitude. If it takes two flights, so what? It's still a hell >of a lot cheaper than anything on the market. You answered too quick. If you'd read a little further, what I wanted to know was *how high* is the LEO they are talking about. The difference between say 100 nm and 150 nm is important for payload comparison purposes. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | emory!ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 93 09:47:56 GMT From: "Hugh D.R. Evans (ESA/ESTEC/WMA Netherlands" Subject: future space travel Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993Jan11.150737.29688@ke4zv.uucp>, gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman) writes: |>We like to think that life is infinitely adaptable, but what it |>adapts |>*into* may not be recognizably human or even terrestrial under extra- |>terrestrial conditions. A long term space habitat could clarify the With all of the talk recently about saving endangered species, why not create a few from scratch? Sure there will be mutations from the Homo Sapiens norm, much as the various races on Earth have adapted (in minor ways such as skin tint), but these mutations will allow the evolving species to survive easier in its new "natural" environment. So, if we decide to send man into space to live, don't expect him to come back looking as he did when he left. Besides, if we can't find another intelligent species in the neighborhood, we may as well make one. Hugh -- InterNet - hevans@estwm8.dnet.estec.esa.nl "Alcohol is very important for young people because it provides a sort of 'liquid adulthood.' If you are young and you drink a great deal it will spoil your health, slow your mind, make you fat - in other words, turn you into an adult." P.J. O'Rourke - Modern Manners, Etiquette for Rude People ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 16:01:38 GMT From: "Allen W. Sherzer" Subject: Goldin's future Newsgroups: sci.space,talk.politics.space A source of mine was at a breakfast meeting with a number of people this morning. Among the people present was Goldin who made the following comment (roughly): "Yes, there are a lot of decisions which need to be made soon but I won't be here to make them". Now this was not an anouncement as none has been made yet but the source did feel that a message was being sent. Things are looking worse and worse for the prospects of reform at NASA (especially since Nelson is the front runner for the job). If you are putting off writing to help Goldin, please do it today. Allen -- +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Allen W. Sherzer | "A great man is one who does nothing but leaves | | aws@iti.org | nothing undone" | +----------------------102 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX----------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 93 10:11:17 GMT From: "Odd Bolin, Royal Inst of Tech, Stockholm, Sweden" Subject: ISU Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993Jan12.013919.3524@ee.ubc.ca>, davem@ee.ubc.ca (Dave Michelson) writes: >Where can I find out more about the International Space University? >A site that I could FTP some files from would be great. What about >application forms? :) > >I've heard that the 1993 session will be held at the University of Alabama >at Huntsville but not much else... yet. Thanks in advance. > >-- >Dave Michelson >davem@ee.ubc.ca Contact: International Space University 955 Massachusetts Ave., 7th Floor Cambridge, MA 02139-3180 USA Ph. 617 - 354 1987 Fax: 617 - 354 7666 You can also try E-mail: info@isu.isunet.edu The last date to apply for the '93 session is *very* soon. I would suggest that you call them today. Odd Bolin Department of Plasma Physics, Alfven Laboratory Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden Ph: +46 - 8 - 790 7701 Fax: +46 - 8 - 245431 Internet: bolin@plasma.kth.se ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 1993 11:01 CST From: wingo%cspara.decnet@Fedex.Msfc.Nasa.Gov Subject: ISU Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993Jan12.013919.3524@ee.ubc.ca>, davem@ee.ubc.ca (Dave Michelson) wri >I've heard that the 1993 session will be held at the University of Alabama >at Huntsville but not much else... yet. Thanks in advance. > >-- >Dave Michelson >davem@ee.ubc.ca > Dave you better get on the stick because Friday of this week is the last day to put in your resume for it. I do not know who to call. Irwin if you are out there could you post Abrams address to this guy? ISU will indeed be at the University of Alabama in Huntsville this year. We are looking forward to this event here. Also to be in Huntsville this year will be the NSS ISDC 93 conference in May, The American Radio Relay League national conference in August, as well as the Students for the Exploration and Development of Space (SEDS) national conference, also in August. We also have every year the Wherner Von Braun Memorial Dinner and program, which is in October. So folks this is what we are doing in our little town to support space, hope many of you can come. Dennis, University of Alabama in Huntsville. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 93 14:30:48 GMT From: Gary Coffman Subject: Let's be more specific (was: Stupid Shut Cost arguements) Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993Jan11.140536.8295@iti.org> aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes: >In article <1993Jan10.171824.25105@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman) writes: > >>>Why does this have to wait for Freedom? We could do that right now. >>>In fact, we'd save money launching Freedom on Energia instead of Shuttle. > >>The *redesign* (yet again) of Freedom required for it to be launched >>by Energia would very likely cost more than any launch cost savings >>that might be achieved. > >An internal NASA group examining that posibility a year ago came fo the >opposite conclusion. They concluded that assembly costs could be cut >in half if the orbit was changed to 51 degrees and Energia was used. But how do assembly costs compare to *redesign* costs Allen? That's the point I was raising. I'm *sure* assembly costs would be reduced if less assembly were necessary. That's almost axiomatic. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | emory!ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 1993 06:45 UT From: Ron Baalke Subject: Mars Observer Update - 01/08/93 Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary In article , collins@well.sf.ca.us (Steve Collins) writes... > >KaBLE is an engineering experiment to evaluate using Ka band to communicate >to deep space spacecraft. It can potentially support much higher data rates >than the X-band we currently use on MO. I don't know much about the details, >but the transponder on MO can receive and return the signal under the >right circumstances. There is a short window where we are on the High gain >antenna but are close enough to have the link-margin to do the experiment. Because of the higher data rates that can be provided with Ka band, it will be used in future deep space missions such as Cassini. Mars Observer simulates Ka band by multiplying its X-band frequency by a factor of 4. Currently, there is only one antenna in the Deep Space Network that can receive Ka band, DSS-13 in Goldstone. The signal is received at DSS-13 and then relayed to DSS-14 for analysis. ___ _____ ___ /_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Ron Baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov | | | | __ \ /| | | | Jet Propulsion Lab | ___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ M/S 525-3684 Telos | Choose a job you love, and /___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | you'll never have to work |_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | a day in your life. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 15:19:35 GMT From: jgarland@kean.ucs.mun.ca Subject: polar meteorites Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary Re. finding meteorites... >> >>Why has no one looked in Greenland? > > Over 100 feet of ice pack has formed since 1944 in Greenland. The P-38s > recently recovered there were buried under 100 feet of ice. Anything > that falls there quickly becomes buried deeply in the ice. In Antarctica, > there are large areas where the annual snowfall is measured in fractional > inches. So meteorites that fall there are easier to find without extensive > drilling. > > Gary > > -- > Gary Coffman KE4ZV Seems to me I remember a childhood reference which stated that Peary found a rather large meteorite (multiton) that had been mined by the local residents for some time (decades/centuries/millenia???). In any case, I think he took it back to the US. The picture still in my mind (or maybe imagination) is of a rocky barrens. In such a place, the same logic as Antarctica would apply, I suppose. John Garland jgarland@kean.ucs.mun.ca ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jan 1993 19:58:50 GMT From: Pat Subject: Shuttle a research tool (was: Re: Let's be more specific) Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993Jan8.183031.12692@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman) writes: > >Let's see, NASA should sell Shuttle and it's support facilities at cost, >lease them back from the buyer at a profit to the leasing agency, and >then they'll save big bucks. What's wrong with this picture? Airlines >use lease back arrangements because of the *tax* advantages the arrangement >offers. The leasing company profit is less than the taxes saved so everybody >but the average taxpayer wins. NASA doesn't pay taxes, they spend them. > Um, gary unless you buy airplanes for fun, there are few tax advantages. Corporations get depreciation, just like leasing agencies. Individuals lease cars because the lessor gets an advantage the individual doesnt. Airlines often lease aircraft, because they wish to reduce risk. They dont want to tie up precious capital into equipment they may not wish to keep. It's leverage. The government leases likes private industry, because it spreads costs from one year to several. The idea behind leasing is that also the lessor may have lower costs then the organic entity. FOr instance, I lease electric power(ok, buy) rather then make it myself. The government buys airline tickets for employees, because the market is much more efficient then their own system. Sure, the DOD has a big aircraft fleet, and most every agency has a couple jets, but these are for executive transport or emergency stuff. The idea behind having a leasing company take over shuttle ops, is maybe (BIG IFF) they can have more effeciency then NASA. I dont really think so, but from a political point of view, by eliminating the political base inside nasa, it does open up more activities in space. >Ok, let's try it another way. NASA sells Shuttle and it's support facilities >at cost to Rockwell. NASA then buys a *ticket* when it needs a launch on >Rockwell Spacelines, about 8 times a year. Rockwell Spacelines sells them >the tickets at about 1.5 times current Shuttle flight costs, got to recoup >the investment and turn a profit. The poor taxpayer takes it in the neck. > AH, but wha tif NASA, starts telling other people, we will pay big money for launch services and starts procuring them. suddenly Northwest DC-1 starts offering tickets at0.9 times shuttle costs. Allens point is that a market will be more effecient then NASA, and IF we can be capitlaist abou;this, then maybe we will win. >One more time. NASA sells Shuttle and support facilities at scrap prices >and writes off development costs as a bad investment. This is what Allen >wants. Rockwell Spacelines buys the scrap and begins operating it. Sells >NASA, NASDA, Hughes, and anyone else who wants one a ticket. Using commercial >operating practices, Rockwell Spacelines makes money, NASA et al get reduced >launch costs, and everyone but the poor abused taxpayer wins. (he always >loses anyway) > Well, considering the taxpayer is bleeding 4 billion dollars out the ass every year, we cant lose any more. >Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary And what if NASA auctions off it's facilities, and leases them so we recover the market fraction??? Hell that's how your company got started. You bought surplus scrap Eastern equipment and re-oriented the business. By your analysis, eastern should have been doing this and made a fortune. why didn't they? because they couldn't. some organizations are incapable of reform. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 15:21:36 GMT From: "Allen W. Sherzer" Subject: Shuttle a research tool (was: Re: Let's be more specific) Newsgroups: sci.space In article steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson) writes: >In particular do people contend that say the Kuiper Observatory >should be put on a AA flight rather than a NASA owned Starlifter? If AA can do it cheaper, yes. If putting is on AA will encourage competition (which will lower costs) then yes. Allen -- +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Allen W. Sherzer | "A great man is one who does nothing but leaves | | aws@iti.org | nothing undone" | +----------------------102 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX----------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 93 14:55:51 GMT From: Gary Coffman Subject: Shuttle a research tool (was: Re: Let's be more specific) Newsgroups: sci.space In article ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) writes: >In <1993Jan8.183031.12692@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman) writes: > >>Ok, let's try it another way. NASA sells Shuttle and it's support facilities >>at cost to Rockwell. NASA then buys a *ticket* when it needs a launch on >>Rockwell Spacelines, about 8 times a year. Rockwell Spacelines sells them >>the tickets at about 1.5 times current Shuttle flight costs, got to recoup >>the investment and turn a profit. The poor taxpayer takes it in the neck. > >How about this: NASA seels the Space Shuttle to Rockwell and negotiates >a long-term contract at the same time. The contract calls for NASA to >purchase 8 flights a year, with penalties for nonperformance, at the same >price NASA pays now. This would be a no-profit contract if Rockwell >spent as much to launch the Shuttle as NASA does, but Rockwell turns >out to be surprisingly innovative, finds ways to bring costs down, >and makes a tidy profit. > >Since NASA has found it can reduce by contracting out many >other operations to private companies (the workforce at KSC >is mainly contractor these days, not NASA), why should the >Shuttle itself be an exception? This is basically the final scenario that I listed. NASA writes off development costs and sells the hardware at depreciated value. *Then* private operation can reduce costs enough to turn a profit at current pricing, or less. At worst, NASA breaks even, and the operations nightmare is off their plate. The scenario you quoted didn't allow write offs and depreciation because it sold *at cost*. The scenario you deleted and recreated does allow these write offs which makes profitable operations possible. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | emory!ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 93 14:36:09 GMT From: Gary Coffman Subject: SNC-Meteorite source (was Re^2: Cheap Mars Rocks) Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary In article <1993Jan11.164332.9648@mailer.cc.fsu.edu> cain@geomag.gly.fsu.edu (Joe Cain) writes: >In article <93011.111344K3032E0@ALIJKU11.BITNET> writes: >>Nobody knows for sure how the SNC came from Mars to Earth, >... >>Sure enough, SNC's don't fall on Antarctica more often than on other >>continents. But unless you see it fall, Luna- and Mars-Meteorites are hard >>to distingush from terrest.rocks. > >Why has no one looked in Greenland? Over 100 feet of ice pack has formed since 1944 in Greenland. The P-38s recently recovered there were buried under 100 feet of ice. Anything that falls there quickly becomes buried deeply in the ice. In Antarctica, there are large areas where the annual snowfall is measured in fractional inches. So meteorites that fall there are easier to find without extensive drilling. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | emory!ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jan 1993 20:01:08 GMT From: Pat Subject: Subjective Safety Measure(Re: man-rating) Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.aeronautics In article <1993Jan8.145918.3604@newsgate.sps.mot.com> turner@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com (Robert Turner) writes: > >Isn't the elevator considered the safest mode of transportation meeting both the >"if I get in, I get out" and "deaths per passenger mile". > a Ah, this guy has never heard of elevator accidents? While kinda uncommon they do occur. mostly due to improper door opening. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 93 16:12:08 GMT From: James Michael Sambrook Subject: Subjective Safety Measure(Re: man-rating) Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.aeronautics >In article <1993Jan8.145918.3604@newsgate.sps.mot.com> turner@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com (Robert Turner) writes: > >Isn't the elevator considered the safest mode of transportation meeting both the >"if I get in, I get out" and "deaths per passenger mile". > Believe it or not, yes!!! Also, it is the most widely used form of mass transportation there is!!! Besides, would Aerosmith ever sing a song called "Love on an Escalator?" :^) James ******************************************************************************* * * * This Space For Rent * * Call 1-800-FOR-RENT for details * * * * James Michael Sambrook, Aerospace AND Nuclear Engineer * * "Are you nuts?" "Nope, just insane!" * * * ******************************************************************************* ------------------------------ End of Space Digest Volume 16 : Issue 039 ------------------------------