Date: Thu, 17 Sep 92 05:06:29 From: Space Digest maintainer Reply-To: Space-request@isu.isunet.edu Subject: Space Digest V15 #210 To: Space Digest Readers Precedence: bulk Space Digest Thu, 17 Sep 92 Volume 15 : Issue 210 Today's Topics: Act Now to Support Space Commerce Food in space Mission Control Status Report for 09/14/92 [#9, 2330 CDT] (Forwarded) Moving industry into space (was Re: Who went to Rio?) Moving Venus NASA working on Apollo rerun Pluto Direct Propulsion Options Pulsing rocket engines (2 msgs) QUERY Re: Pluto Direct/ options (2 msgs) Shuttle Replacement (was: One Small Step...) Small comet impact theory STS-47 element set GSFC-012: orbit 49 Terraforming needs to begin now Who went to Rio? Welcome to the Space Digest!! Please send your messages to "space@isu.isunet.edu", and (un)subscription requests of the form "Subscribe Space " to one of these addresses: listserv@uga (BITNET), rice::boyle (SPAN/NSInet), utadnx::utspan::rice::boyle (THENET), or space-REQUEST@isu.isunet.edu (Internet). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Sep 92 07:29:22 PDT From: Jim Bowery Subject: Act Now to Support Space Commerce Newsgroups: sci.space SENATE LEGISLATIVE ALERT FROM THE COALITION FOR SCIENCE AND COMMERCE Senators Danforth and Hollings are now considering whether to pass a NASA authorization bill containing key provisions from the Hall/Walker language for space commercialization. Time is of the essence. This will be go/nogo in about a week. Please >FAX< a LETTER to Hollings at 202/224-4293 and call VOICE to Danforth at 202/224-6154. Ask them to introduce and pass the Senate NASA Authorization bill and mention specifically the launch voucher program and the extention to the Packard Act of 1990 to include suborbital launches. -- INTERNET: jim@netlink.cts.com (Jim Bowery) UUCP: ...!ryptyde!netlink!jim NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 453-1115 ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 92 00:15:10 GMT From: Bruce Watson Subject: Food in space Newsgroups: sci.space In article ruca@pinkie.saber-si.pt (Rui Sousa) writes: >Anyone can tell me addresses or references on nutricional issues in space? >I.e. what do astronauts eat nowadays while in orbit and what studies are being conducted on this subject. > >Thanks (i surely hope this is not a FAQ...) > >Rui It's not an FAQ. I'm very interested in this too. The food is pretty grim-- worse than airline food (Why do people hate airline food? I think they do a good job under the circumstances), but it was considerably grimer during the Mercury-Gemini-Apollo days. There is a sample 'Space Shuttle Food and Beverage List' in _The Space Shuttle Operator's Manual_, Joels and Kennedy, Ballantine Books, NY, 1982. The astronauts may be sophisticated and cerebral but if they chose this food list, their tastes leave much to be desired. It reads like a combination of camp food and what pre-teenage kids would eat if their parents would let them. No wonder the foreign astronauts bring along their own food. -- Bruce Watson (wats@scicom) Tumbra, Zorkovick; Sparkula zoom krackadomando. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 92 15:00:12 GMT From: "John F. Woods" Subject: Mission Control Status Report for 09/14/92 [#9, 2330 CDT] (Forwarded) Newsgroups: sci.space yee@trident.arc.nasa.gov (Peter E. Yee) writes: >STS-47 Status Report #9 >Flight controllers today accumulated enough surplus power and breathing air >to add one extra day to the STS-47 mission should the science team request >more time. Somehow, this gives me a mental picture of the flight controllers rummaging around in their pockets and looking under sofa cushions. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 92 14:10:44 GMT From: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey Subject: Moving industry into space (was Re: Who went to Rio?) Newsgroups: sci.space In article , jay@deepthot.cary.nc.us (Jay Denebeim) writes: > In article <1992Sep14.054546.1@fnala.fnal.gov>, Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey writes: > > BH> At the moment, "moving some industry off Earth," as a method of > BH> "saving the environment," must be viewed as pure science fiction. > > Gosh, I seem to recall a late-night converstation in the filk room on > a similar subject. Was I there? I don't remember... by the way, Jay, sorry to miss the rendezvous for the GPS Delta launch last Tuesday. I was really, really, tired. I couldn't manage to wake up at 0200 and drive to Titusville. Hope you found other kindred souls there. I did get to see it from my mom's yard, though. It finally lit off about 0500 and made a nice yellow flame and noise in the night. When the solids dropped off they were a cluster of little red lights floating in the sky. > Is it SF? I mean, is it really only possible in fiction using current > technology, or is it an 'engineering problem'? Think of the industrial activities doing the most damage to the environment. Now think about how much they *weigh*. Now think about Planet Earth's launch capacity, which is constantly being discussed here. This will give you some idea of the problem. (I hope nobody will explain to me that we won't be lifting the steel mills of Gary into orbit-- though that *does* happen in some SF stories. I just offer this as a thought experiment.) There is industrial activity in space now. There will doubtless be more. We can hope that costs will come down and space industry will grow at a rapid rate. But even in the rosiest scenarios, we are a long, long way from undertaking replacement of any large fraction of our most environmentally-nasty industries with spacegoing ones. If such replacement ever happens, it will be many, many decades from now. This may be long enough for the environment to get seriously worse at current pollution/emission rates. I think we will have to deal with these problems by cleaning up Earthbound industries, not by creating space-based ones. During the first and second stage Bill Higgins flights of the vehicle, if a serious Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory irretrievable fault should occur and HIGGINS@FNALB.BITNET the deviation of the flight attitude of HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV the vehicle exceeds a predetermined SPAN/Hepnet: 43011::HIGGINS value, the attitude self-destruction system will make the vehicle self-destroyed. --Long March 3 User's Manual Ministry of Astronautics, People's Republic of China (1985) ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 92 12:56:00 GMT From: pete Subject: Moving Venus Newsgroups: sci.space Hey, that's what we like to see; a good practical civil engineering problem. (^: So hey: here's the cheap easy way to do it (and you get Mars in a warmer orbit as a bonus). Just build a whole bunch of big electron accelerators, and fire off kiloamps of e+ at Mars and a similar quantity of e- at Venus. After a few centuries of constant current, the E field will start pulling the 2 planets toward each other, moderating both their climates. Or maybe it will just charge up their atmospheres, causing Venus to lose a whole lot of unwanted cloud cover by repulsion. This also guarantees lots of jobs for generations of us accelerator folk. (^: (^: (^: =========================================================================== Now what we really need is a scheme Pete Vincent for Mars and Venus to trade atmospheres. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 92 22:00:48 BST From: amon@elegabalus.cs.qub.ac.uk Subject: NASA working on Apollo rerun > You know Nick, to borrow a phrase from Ren Hoek - "Your wealth of > ignorance astounds me." Fortunately, ignorance is (usually) curable. > Let's keep the flame level down. Flame wars have started over lesser slights than the above :-) Just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean they have to be "ignorant". There are more than a few who have gone head to head with Nick and still disagree with him, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have his facts straight. You have your interpretation of the facts. Nick has his. I tend to agree more with Nick, although I applaud that Dan Goldin is trying to break the old mold. But I think you should take some of Nick's critique on board. Okay, it is a baseline plan. There is a problem with some baseline plans. For instance, the DOE baseline study on Solar Power Sats in ~1978 created a baseline that basically killed SPS interest in congress. They didn't include lunar resources, and without them SPS is just plain uneconomical. > How can you be sure that it increases costs? What is the cost for an > orbiting return vehicle that can stationkeep for 45 days, vs. a lander > that contains all the things needed for a return, as well as the cargo > to be delivered? In addition, direct descent and ascent can save fuel > in some cases, further increasing payload. > I agree with you here. LOR was selected only for political reasons. Wernher wanted a huge rocket (the Nova) that went direct A to B and back. That is understandable. WVB like to build big skyrockets. People interested in getting something that would be more supportable in the future wanted EOR (earth orbit rendezvous) and assembly. Kennedy sent the message down that LOR would be it because it had the best chance of beating the russians. This was told to me by someone who was in DC in the early '60's when the debate was raging. Commercial purchase is certainly the only way to go. I think it would be silly for NASA to go out and start an R&D project to build a new SV. Far better is to simply say "I want N tons of my cargo delivered to lunar surface coordinates X,Y,Z by no later than time T". Then buy the service from whoever wishes to supply it. I'm glad to hear that Energiya is under consideration. That shows a bit more open mindedness than NASA has shown in a very long time. It is not really clear to me that you need such a large launcher. Send the cargo one one way unmanned and automated landers. Send the crew on a refueled DCX or other smaller vessel who's only purpose is to take a couple people to the lunar base. Also, as Gordon Woodcock (Boeing, Huntsville) has shown, there are regular transit orbits from Earth at the space station orbit (or any other) when the lines of nodes align. You come in over the lunar poles and thus land pretty much where you want. Worst case is you go into orbit before landing. You can still bring down the whole vehicle though. That does make sense. I'm not averse to letting Dennis build his heavy lift if he's willing to start Wingo Aerospace Corp and put in his bid against the Sherzer Astronautics Group :-) > Without major increases in space activities, science and exploration are > the only justification for human return to the Moon and going to Mars. > And without such justifications there is unlikely to be any long term support. The difficulty here is that the US economy is becoming more and more dominated by competition for congressional favor. I too have been down this route: I was once the Spacepac Chapters Coordinator. What I learned out of it all is that political battles are never won. You refight them year after year after year: and just when you think you've succeeded, up pops a new cause celebre and yours becomes a source of funding for it. No thanks. I'd much prefer doing productive labor. And I'm not saying the writer isn't: but for him to have his chance at productive labor requires the efforts of hundreds if not thousands of intelligent people doing nothing at all except trying to influence government. Just imagine what would happen if all those manhours were actually allocated to DOING something REAL! There are justifications, but they are ones that will come step by step. The start will be slower than a government program. But the difference is that just at the point that the government program comes to a screeching halt because election priorities have changed, the private venture's exponential growth would pass it up. No, I can't justify a private venture for going straight to the moon. But I can justify going to LEO and maybe even GSO. I'd probably argue tooth and nail with Nick on which ones they were, but then we each get to invest where our mouths are. And once you have an economically viable LEO presence, it becomes possible to justify going to the moon. Energetically you are already half way there. ie, half the risk is already taken. And once you bring back a few thousand pounds of pet moon rocks, you might be able to bring along a few scientists as passengers. And so forth. The thesis behind this is that there will be steady support for NASA. I have my doubts. Practically speaking, if Goldin can actually get control of procurement out from under all the red tape; if he can dump the spread the pork around philosophy; and if he can kill the bigger is better internal philosophy, then maybe, just MAYBE, he has a chance to accomplish something. > Note the name above - FIRST Lunar OUTPOST. Unfortunately, the article > did not make it clear that this is seen as the first step towards really > understanding what is needed for a major base. Do you know how to design > a LOX plant for the lunar surface that is efficient, reasonable in mass > and maintainable? Nobody I know of does, at least not enough to bet a > gigabuck on. Plans for all that stuff are further down the line. > The point is well taken in a sense. The first commercial people there would probably not be miners either. I wasn't entirely kidding about the pet moon rocks. Any idea how much you sell a lunar rock for on Earth? Any idea how much people paid for chunks of rotting socialist concrete from the Berlin Wall? There are lots of ways to make money out of the moon, once LEO has been commercially settled. Most of the early ones are very un-NASA like and undecorous. I do admit that it has not been unusual in the past for governments to send exploratory parties into the wilderness. I just recommend keeping the price tag down and using commercial resources... and at the out set state that the outpost is nothing but a support facility for the REAL space program: the private one, not the NASA one. > samples for return to earth, doing maintenance, etc. Hardly > unproductive. As for revenue or commercial interest - well, you > Libertarians are like the old saw about cynics - you know the cost of > everything and the value of nothing. > I can make similar statements about the Demopublicans who have spent the US into bankruptcy. They know the cost of programs but they don't have the foggiest notion of the value of money. > Storing H2 and O2 for long periods on the lunar surface (two days and a > night) is expensive and kludgy. Best estimates by JSC and MSFC are that > storable propellants are required for safety and cost reasons. H2/O2 was > looked at for the return vehicle and rejected for now. By the way, the > lander will use RL-10 engines (the new throttled version - thanks > SSRT!). > It all depends where you land. If you are near the poles (which your direct ascent OR the Woodcock orbits allow) you can store them where the sun don't shine. You also must build in the assumption that if a ship can't lift, it is not a disaster and front page headlines. That is an advantage of having smaller vessels like DC-1 for that purpose. I also do not see any reason at all for not shipping a prototype O2 plant up on one of the one way cargo carriers. If it works, you modify your operations and cut cost. If it doesn't work, you sue the manufacturer and get a new source. :-) Seriously though, aerospace contractors should not be allowed to bid on a lunar O2 manufacturing plant. It should be done by a mining and manufacturing company with consulting input from aerospace people. And if you are thanking the SSRT, why aren't you planning on supporting it and using it? Has NASA weighed in on it's side? > Neither of which can be used for EVAs every other day for 45 days. > Neither of which are suitable for long term surface ops (8-10 hrs) on a > long mission. Both of which require extensive maintenance. Both of which > would have problems with lunar dust - the Apollo suits had problems with > the seals due to dust on the multi-EVA flights. Lunar dust is a major > design problem for any lunar base - imagine very hard and fine sandpaper > grit getting all over and into everything with great adhesive > properties. NASA wants to do something sensible - learn from past > experience and improve on what has been done. > Absolutely correct. Moon dust is nasty stuff. It is fine, hyperdry and contains particles of glass. It carries a bit of an electric charge from implaned ions and sticks to everything like glue. It gets tracked inside your habitat no matter what you do (unless maybe you spray them down with water before entry. Or maybe some other fluid that is easily evaporated to leave the particles as sediment and allow reuses of the cleaner). It itches like mad, gives some people an almost allergic reaction... [Info from personal communication from someone who has been there] > Cost is expected to be several billion a year. NASA intends to ask for > the money when the DOD/Domestic budget wall comes down. However, another > You may have to wait awhile. The current economic climate is not going to turn around until the world wide changeover from a wartime economy to a peacetime one has completed. That may take until the end of the decade. > reviews I have been to, it has been clearly stated that all the pretty > pictures and diagrams are not final, are just strawmen and are only to > give the staff a point of departure to debate from. Griffin intends to > do as much commercial procurement as possible, releasing a set of > requirements and asking companies to bid on it. Innovative solutions are > welcome. > I understand. Note my comment about what happened to the SPS strawman. Also, I am glad to hear Griffin wants commercial procurement. I have heard a number of good things about him. But my prior statements hold: I am doubtful that it will come to more than another set of file cabinets in the National Archive. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 92 16:17:24 GMT From: Herman Rubin Subject: Pluto Direct Propulsion Options Newsgroups: sci.space In article gabriele@aero.org (Mark Gabriele) writes: >I was under the impression that there are space-qualified ion thrusters >in the NASA inventory; these are very low-thrust, weigh about 10 kg, and >are qualified for one year of operation. Of course, they do burn a >pretty serious amount of power, but if you're willing to test a space-based >nuclear reactor, you'll get all the power you need (25 kW in a small >reactor). The only problem is decellerating upon reaching Pluto. The >thrust from the ion engines is so small that you'd need to begin to >slow down very shortly after passing the halfway point, which is >not going to help make this a short mission. I doubt that this will be a real problem. Now I have not done the calculations myself, but I recall that there was a proposal a long time ago to use an ion engine to get a Mars orbital device in orbit. This would have taken 6 months to break away from earth orbit, 3 months to transfer to the neighborhood of Mars, and 3 months to get into the desired Mars orbit. I believe that the total weight of the system was about 7 tons; this is entirely from memory. Now earth and Mars are .4 AU apart, and a transfer orbit is longer. Suppose we scale this to 40AU, roughly the distance between earth and Pluto. The time scales by the square root of the ratio of the distances, so we have 2.5 years. Also, I have ignored the gravitational potential problem, which makes the matter worse near the sun. And with Pluto having such a small mass, the time to spiral down becomes shorter. So if the ion rocket can carry enough reaction mass, the problem is quite tractable. -- Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399 Phone: (317)494-6054 hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet) {purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1992 13:06:18 GMT From: "Michael K. Heney" Subject: Pulsing rocket engines Newsgroups: sci.space In article urf@icl.se (Urban F) writes: >Ali AbuTaha, of Dynamic Transients, is claiming that >pulsing-engine technology could enable the Shuttle to carry a >payload of 105.500 kg, as apart from 29.500 today, and also that >an Ariane 4:s first stage could become so efficient as to make it >a SSTO vehicle. > >The effect responsible for this is "dynamic overshoot", which is >said to occur at sudden start-up of rocket engines, which has >been largely neglected, he says. He admits that existing systems >would need extensive modifications, and that it won't go quickly. > >I'm not capable to judge if this is reasonable, comments please? >[Flight International 16-22 Sept 1992] >-- > Urban Fredriksson urf@icl.se > "When a woman thinks quickly, it is called intuition." -- Barbro Alving I saw an abstract of a paper he wrote for the World Space Congress here in DC last month. He talks about "rectifying" the engine thrust to effectively double the Isp - for the SSME, that moves it from 455 to the 900 sec range. He claims (correctly; I assume) that you could launch without the SRBs, making the shuttle/ET combination an SSTO. I'd be interested in hearing comments on this, too. If the engines are actually being pulsed, sounds like it could be a rough ride. As I didn't see the actual paper, though, and am not qualified to speak on this even if I did, I'll not comment further. -- Mike Heney | | Reach for the mheney@access.digex.com | * Will Work for Money * | Stars, eh? Kensington, MD (near DC) | | ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1992 15:11:10 GMT From: Paul Dietz Subject: Pulsing rocket engines Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1992Sep16.130618.20179@access.digex.com> mheney@access.digex.com (Michael K. Heney) writes: > I saw an abstract of a paper he wrote for the World Space Congress here in > DC last month. He talks about "rectifying" the engine thrust to effectively > double the Isp - for the SSME, that moves it from 455 to the 900 sec range. > He claims (correctly; I assume) that you could launch without the SRBs, > making the shuttle/ET combination an SSTO. > > I'd be interested in hearing comments on this, too. Sounds seriously deluded. There isn't enough chemical energy in oxygen + hydrogen to get an Isp of 900 seconds, even assuming 100% efficient combustion of a stoichiometric mixture. Paul F. Dietz dietz@cs.rochester.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 92 14:57:41 GMT From: Doug Mohney Subject: QUERY Re: Pluto Direct/ options Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1992Sep15.223407.26691@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov>, baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) writes: >* Neptune spacecraft will release a probe 6 to 8 days before closest > approach. This will enter the atmosphere of Neptune. Would the same sterilization rules apply to this probe as to anything sent to land on Mars or Titan? Play in the intelluctual sandbox of Usenet -- > SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU < -- ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 92 16:57:17 GMT From: Henry Spencer Subject: QUERY Re: Pluto Direct/ options Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1992Sep15.055145.15037@sq.sq.com> msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) writes: >a simple Jupiter slingshot... Apart from the problem others have touched on -- the timing is wrong to get a major gravity assist from Jupiter -- just about any Jupiter gravity assist is a design headache because of Jupiter's Van Allen belts. Having to rad-harden your probe for a trip through that inferno is a serious nuisance. -- There is nothing wrong with making | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology mistakes, but... make *new* ones. -D.Sim| henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 92 08:53:09 GMT From: Gary Coffman Subject: Shuttle Replacement (was: One Small Step...) Newsgroups: talk.politics.space,sci.space In article <1992Sep14.130212.16162@iti.org> aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes: >In article <1992Sep12.151003.21751@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman) writes: > >>So instead you want to stretch designs, Titan and Delta, that are >>already 30 years old one more time. > >1. The designs in question all have safety factors of 2.0; nothing > is being stretched anywhere. Are you saying that *previous* Titan and Delta launchers have had safety factors *greater* than 2.0? And how do you translate that into on time on budget launches? >2. The existing Titan and Delta are very different from what they > where 30 years ago. 30 years of continuous improvement will do > that. Yes, I'm sure that the Wright Flyer would have been a hell of a biplane after 30 years of add ons too. That would still leave it outclassed by later designs. >>No thanks. We can count on >>general technology advances in the next 12-35 years that will allow >>us to build something *better* than those roman candles when we >>actually *need* them. > >Except that we can't do the research to develop this technology because >people like you have made a virtue out of wasting money on the existing >systems. Nonsense. Automated manufacturing technology hasn't depended on NASA funding. Most materials research hasn't depended on NASA funding. Most electronic control systems progress hasn't depended on NASA funding. Systems integration and non-destructive testing methodologies haven't depended on NASA funding. Composite materials development hasn't depended on NASA funding. Automated CAD/CAM systems didn't even exist when Titan and Delta were designed. All Titan and Delta have going for them is a track record of delays, cost overruns, and failures as an old inefficient design is pushed beyond it's limits. The old brutes are admirable in the same way as an old 1950s tailfinned Plymouth, but they are lightyears out of step with modern capabilities and demands. With the small market for launchers in their class, they are perhaps "good enough" to continue producing for a few more years. But they aren't a good basis for a new launch capability that will see us through the next few decades. Shuttle will be reaching the end of it's useful life by 2012, maybe sooner if flights are frequent enough to build high hours on the existing airframes. Follow on vehicles should be based on the *best* technologies that we know how to build, not on something designed four decades ago. Gary ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Sep 92 15:03:18 PDT From: "UTADNX::UTDSSA::GREER"@utspan.span.nasa.gov Subject: Small comet impact theory In Space Digest V15 #197, amon@elegabalus.cs.qub.ac.uk writes: >I was just reading the article in Science 31-July about the small >comet controversy. Quite interesting from a political/sociological >viewpoint. What I really can't fathom is: what was it about the idea >that was so upsetting to people in the field that they replied to a >possibly weak thesis with flaming rhetoric rather than research? Why >did they wish it had not been published? I'd love to people's >thoughts on it. Anytime you combine a journalist with an agenda, a manipulative scientist, and a susceptible public, you will most likely get something that is interesting from a sociological point of view. I am peripherally involved, being the systems analyst at the Center for Space Sciences at U.T. Dallas. The head of the Center is Dr. Bill Hanson, one of the critics of Lou Frank's theory. Another of its critics Dr. Bruce Cragin, mentioned in the article, also works here. Cragin and Hanson never used used what you might call "flaming rhetoric" against Dr. Frank, they did write a few reasoned and researched rebuttals, back when this was still an issue in space science. >For those unfamiliar with the debate, refer to the Science issue cited >above. And note that the author of the paper was and is a highly >respected space scientist. Right or wrong, it was an interesting and >thought provoking idea and deserved more thoughtful response than it >got. That sword cuts both ways, Mr. Amon. The Science article was very short, and was written from Lou Frank's point of view. It's obvious you have done almost no research to support your sweeping condemnation of the other parties involved. >OR, to put it really bluntly: if any of the involved are out there >I'd suggest you allow Dr. Lewis Frank and his few supporters to >continue to make their case in print as they see fit. If you don't >like what he says, then respond civilly and scientifically instead of >being a bunch of asses. Really, Mr. Amon. I'm not sure why I feel compelled to respond to someone who resorts to abuse when he doesn't even know the particulars of a matter. It must be vanity. _____________ Dale M. Greer, whose opinions are not to be confused with those of the Center for Space Sciences, U.T. at Dallas, UTSPAN::UTADNX::UTDSSA::GREER "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (attr.) ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 92 16:16:49 GMT From: Jay Maynard Subject: STS-47 element set GSFC-012: orbit 49 Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.space.shuttle STS-47 1 22120U 92 61 A 92259.61569380 0.00076435 00000-0 25599-3 0 124 2 22120 56.9971 93.6720 0008801 289.1809 70.8314 15.89530661 497 Satellite: STS-47 Catalog number: 22120 Epoch time: 92259.61569380 (15 SEP 92 14:46:35.95 UTC) Element set: GSFC-012 Inclination: 56.9971 deg RA of node: 93.6720 deg Space Shuttle Flight STS-47 Eccentricity: 0.0008801 Keplerian Elements Arg of perigee: 289.1809 deg Mean anomaly: 70.8314 deg Mean motion: 15.89530661 rev/day Semi-major Axis: 6681.7300 Km Decay rate: 0.76E-03 rev/day*2 Apogee Alt: 309.22 Km Epoch rev: 49 Perigee Alt: 297.46 Km NOTE - This element set is based on NORAD element set # 012. The spacecraft has been propagated to the next ascending node, and the orbit number has been adjusted to bring it into agreement with the NASA numbering convention. G.L.CARMAN -- Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu | adequately be explained by stupidity. "Certainly I can comprehend pre-beta. Translations: 1. Alpha 2. Microsoft marketing BS." -- Chris Waters ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 92 11:59:04 GMT From: Bruce D Johnson Subject: Terraforming needs to begin now Newsgroups: sci.space In article <11SEP199202381403@reg.triumf.ca>, vincent@reg.triumf.ca (pete) writes: > In article , > jgj@ssd.csd.harris.com (Jeff Jackson) writes... [intro deleted] >> >>I guess the hard part is getting fresh water to these regions. Here's >>my wild, uneducated, naive silly idea for all ya'll to shoot holes in. >>There's tons of sand in these deserts. You can use sand to make >>glass, so, use all this glass to make huge solar distillation systems. >>I'm envisioning long salt-water canals running from the Med. Sea, or >>Oceans running hundreds of miles inland. Covering each canal is a >>greenhouse that heats the water up and makes it evaporate. At the top >>of the greenhouse, the vapor is collected and cooled of, and the resulting >>distilled water is then pumped out into irrigation canals runing >>perpendicular to the salt-water canals. >> > Jeez that's bizarre. I had that exact idea some 10 years ago, in > detail. Plus a few more twists: use the glass to form solar mirrors > to fire the glass factories, and use the fresh water to grow crops > on the ground sheltered from direct sunlight beneath the evaporation > panels. The vapour is condensed by cool sea water flowing into the > system along the tops of the evaporators. > I see 2 major problems with this scheme, besides labour: labour not too huge a problem... Not in third world desert areas. > 1) glass requires lime, to lower its melting point, and yield > a strong product. Also sand must be very white to yield transparent > glass. Does it have to be transparent glass ? > 2) how do you pump the seawater cheaply? > How about wave action ? Ok there probably isn't much in the Med. but there are plenty of other deserts to be getting on with. > Pete Vincent How about reducing the scale to start with ? Say set up a system with enough water producing capability to support a medium sized farm. (Then a bigger farm etc.) This has several advantages including not being dependant on rain, so in a drought you actually score !! I suspect that the straight channel approach may not work though... 1)lots of water in one end... 2)not so much near the other end, and the water getting hotter all the time. 3)Hence lots of evaporation at the end - almost none near the beginning. The problem of what to do with the salt left behind also raises it's head. How about instead of a straight channel, making a circuit, with the end at the sea ? At night the system is left running... Low to no evaporation... water washes out salt left during the day... No doubt there are problems with this setup (note the idea here is not neccesasarily to teraform the earth in one go but a little bit at a time ) Bruce jhnbru03@uctvax.uct.ac.za ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 92 04:34:16 GMT From: Jay Denebeim Subject: Who went to Rio? Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1992Sep14.054546.1@fnala.fnal.gov>, Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey writes: BH> At the moment, "moving some industry off Earth," as a method of BH> "saving the environment," must be viewed as pure science fiction. Gosh, I seem to recall a late-night converstation in the filk room on a similar subject. Is it SF? I mean, is it really only possible in fiction using current technology, or is it an 'engineering problem'? -- |_o_o|\\ |. o.| || The Jay Denebeim | . | || Software | o | || Distillery | |// Address: UUCP: duke!wolves!deepthot!jay ====== Internet: jay@deepthot.cary.nc.us If the above bounces try: uunet.uu.net!oichq!deepthot!jay BBS:(919)-460-7430 VOICE:(919)-460-6934 ------------------------------ End of Space Digest Volume 15 : Issue 210 ------------------------------