Date: Wed, 5 Aug 92 05:01:35 From: Space Digest maintainer Reply-To: Space-request@isu.isunet.edu Subject: Space Digest V15 #071 To: Space Digest Readers Precedence: bulk Space Digest Wed, 5 Aug 92 Volume 15 : Issue 071 Today's Topics: Call for papers - NASA Art. Intelligence conference Energiya's role in Space Station assembly ETs and Radio On NASA Origin of Life PERSEIDS Soyuz as ACRV (9 msgs) TSS update (indirect via NASA Select) What is the ASRM?? Welcome to the Space Digest!! Please send your messages to "space@isu.isunet.edu", and (un)subscription requests of the form "Subscribe Space " to one of these addresses: listserv@uga (BITNET), rice::boyle (SPAN/NSInet), utadnx::utspan::rice::boyle (THENET), or space-REQUEST@isu.isunet.edu (Internet). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 Aug 92 13:15:53 GMT From: "Nick Short (IDM" Subject: Call for papers - NASA Art. Intelligence conference Newsgroups: comp.parallel,comp.realtime,sci.space GSFC AI and Space Applications Conference 93 CALL FOR PAPERS The Eighth Annual Goddard Conference on Space Applications of Artificial Intelligence May 10 - May 14, 1993 NASA Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, MD, USA Scope: The Eighth Annual Goddard Conference on Space Applications of Artificial Intelligence will focus on AI research and applications relevant to space systems, space operations, and space science. Topics will include, but are not limited to: o Knowledge-based spacecraft command and control o Expert system management and methodologies o Distributed knowledge-based systems o Intelligent database management o Fault-tolerant rule-based systems o Simulation-based reasoning o Fault isolation and diagnosis o Planning and scheduling o Knowledge acquisition o Robotics and telerobotics o Neural networks o Image analysis Original, unpublished papers are now being solicited for the conference. Papers must describe work with clear AI content and applicability to space-related problems. Authors are asked to submit abstracts first for initial review. Accepted papers will be presented formally or as poster presentations, which may include demonstrations. All accepted papers will be published in the Conference Proceedings as an official NASA document, and select papers will appear in a special issue of the international journal "Telematics and Informatics". There will be a Conference award for Best Paper. Submission: Abstracts should be 300-500 words in length. Two copies of the abstract should be submitted by September 1, 1992 along with the author's name, affiliation, address, and telephone number. Notification of tentative acceptance will be given by September 16, 1992. Papers should be no longer than 15 pages and must be submitted in camera-ready form for final acceptance by November 16, 1992. Abstracts may be submitted through e-mail, FAX, or regular mail. E-mail and FAX are preferred. Submission Addresses: Mail: Mike Moore NASA GSFC, Code 522.1 Building 23, Room E413 Greenbelt, MD 20771 USA E-mail: moore@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov FAX: (301) 286-4627 Important Dates: Abstract Submission September 1, 1992 Abstract Acceptance Notification September 16, 1992 Paper Submission November 16, 1992 Conference Co-Chairs: Mike Moore NASA GSFC, Code 522.1 Greenbelt, MD 20771 (301) 286-3192 moore@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov Bob Cromp NASA GSFC, Code 930.4 Greenbelt, MD 20771 (301) 286-4351 cromp@sauquoit.gsfc.nasa.gov -- -------------------- Nick Short Intelligent Data Management Project Code 934 NASA/GSFC ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1992 17:24:11 +0000 From: Anthony Frost Subject: Energiya's role in Space Station assembly Newsgroups: sci.space > Besides, how would you propose something as large as the > Energiya would get shipped out of Baikonur. The US ships > its External Tank by barge fromMichoHow would an Energiya > get here? The An-225 Mria transport aircraft used for moving the Buran shuttle can also be used for carrying Energiya core stages and second stages according to articles in the British Interplanetary Society magazine... Anthony ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1992 21:03:57 GMT From: Wolfgang Zenker Subject: ETs and Radio Newsgroups: sci.space gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman) writes: : In article henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes: : >In article <1992Jul29.161716.3491@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman) writes: : >>Now subtract out all Population II stars, no heavy elements like iron, : > : >Some of them might have enough for a small planetary system. : : I mentioned iron for two reasons. First, it's necessary for oxygen : transport via the blood. [..] As far as i remember my biology lessons, oxygen transport in the blood of insects is based on copper, not iron. Wolfgang ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 92 19:16:35 GMT From: Nathan Baruch Subject: On NASA Newsgroups: sci.space To all the people on this news group, I have a question which may sound ridiculous but I thought I would ask here. In any case, I was talking to my friend about NASA. It is the national space agency for the US but what exactly do they do? Do they actually build the shuttles, satellites, and rockets or do they just give the plans to some company to build? Also I was wondering about the composition of NASA itself. Keeping aside the politicians, beareaucrats, and business managers, what exactly is their 'scientific staff'? Are they predominantly technicians, engineers (like aerospace and electrical), or physicists? I am talking about their building/ designing space vehicles aspect, not the space sciences. Obviously physicists and astronomers would be hard at work at that. In any case, I am seriously interested in it. Hopefully one day, I would like to work there so I want to know what is like over there at NASA. I'd appreciate immensely email replies from people at NASA. Thanks in advance. Nathan Baruch nb12@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu P.S. Are the other governments research centers like NASA in its organization? If not, I will dedicate another posting to that question. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 92 18:59:07 GMT From: Paul Dietz Subject: Origin of Life Newsgroups: sci.space In article , rwallace@unix1.tcd.ie (russell wallace) writes: |> >P.S- Please include a defintion of 'non-trivial self-replication.' |> Certainly. First, a definition of non-trivial self-replication is a |> system which contains some machinery, and a blueprint of the machinery. ... |> Actually I believe that the explanations of how life got started that |> are being put forward by my opponents in this debate are correct; |> probably a cluster of RNA and proteins came together that had the |> ability to replicate itself, using the information in the RNA as a |> blueprint, and thus was the first life form (I think non-trivial |> self-replication can reasonably serve as a definition of when life first |> appeared). The "naked gene" idea has been proposed, but there is a serious problem with it. Specifically, RNA is a rather complex molecule. Even the components of RNA are rather complex. Ribose, for example, is only one of many different 5-carbon sugars. There are many bases other than the four that go into RNA. There are many ways to hook the bases to the ribose molecule, and many ways to hook the phosphate to the ribose. Yet, we are supposed to believe that a piece of naked RNA, floating in a pool of rather nonspecific chemical fragments, magically rejects those fragments that are chemically flawed, and reproduces itself? Remember, even a 1% error rate means no piece of RNA more than 100 bases long (or so) will survive. Those experiments that had self-reproducing RNA fragments were conducted in a solution loaded with preformed nucleotides, each with a diphosphate group to provide the energy needed for the bond to form. This is nothing like what would be in "primordial soup". If even a small admixture of bad nucleotides had been included, the experiments would have failed. Is there a way out of this dilemma, without evoking statistical miracles? Perhaps. If a gene in the form of a code cannot reasonably be expected to arise first, what could? Some other means of carrying reproducible information is needed. I suggest the following mechanism (which is not, I think, original, but I don't recall where I've seen it). Suppose some nonspecific reaction exists that causes proteins (or something like them) to form from monomers. These macromolecules will have charged side chains of various kinds. Now suppose this polymerization is occuring in an environment containing various small molecules. Sometimes, one of these molecules will be attracted to a forming protein, and act as a kind of template. That is, positively charged regions of the template will encourage the placement of negatively charged monomers near them; negatively charged regions, positive ones. When the molecule is done forming, a cavity will exist that matches the template molecule, more or less accurately. We'll never get the same macromolecule twice, but never mind that; this scheme tolerates a great deal of error and waste. Now, if the cavity is a good fit, it will bind the small molecule, and nothing is accomplished. If the cavity is a bad fit, again we gain nothing. But suppose the cavity happens to match the shape of a transition state between precursors for the template molecule and the template itself, but binds the template sufficiently weakly that thermal motion can dislodge it. Then, by accident, an enzyme that catalyzes the formation of the template will have been formed. Such enzymes, by increasing the concentration of template, will increase the rate of their own formation. Alternately, if the template is at a higher energy state than some smaller molecules, we could get an enzyme that destroys the template. But these enzymes would tend to inhibit their own formation, by destroying the templates that induce them. Now suppose we have a bag (of lipids or somesuch) to confine these enzymes. We can imagine that they could sustain themselves by exploiting free energy available in the primordial soup in the form of simple energetic molecules (just what, I don't know, but something better be available for the enzymes to act on). Bags that encourage the formation of amino acids (moreover, of amino acids useful for making enzymes) will survive better than those that do not. Bags that make more of proteins, and that can somehow split (say, by getting large, then being broken into pieces by wave action) can potentially reproduce. The "genome" of one of these bags is very crude: it is simply the population of small molecules that are in the bag, small molecules that induce their own formation. Multiple stable states are possible, if the enzymes are competing for substrates. Precise replication of coded instructions is not necessary, nor is transcription of a code. I suggest that today's clear separation of genotype and phenotype is a later invention. RNA might have started as a structural material, rather than as genetic material, and only later have been adapted to its current role (its structural use in ribosomes is perhaps a clue). Paul F. Dietz dietz@cs.rochester.edu ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 92 16:17:04 GMT From: pbrown@uwovax.uwo.ca Subject: PERSEIDS Newsgroups: sci.astro,sci.space Perseid Observations. With the month of August here many amateur astronomers will be looking forward to the summer's most spectacular meteor shower - the Perseids. Peaking on Aug 11/12 this year the unusual activity witnessed by observers in Eastern Asia last year with hourly rates topping 350/hr might well be repeated. The Perseid predictions this year are complicated by the fact that there are now two maxima to be concerned with - the new very strong one seen last year by observers in Eastern Asia and the regular Perseid peak. If you use predictions made since last years Perseid shower then Aug 11 22-23h UT will likely be quoted as the peak, favouring Eastern Europe. This is when the new peak observed last year will encounter the Earth again. If you use older predicitions published well before last years outburst than you will likely have Aug 12 6h UT quoted as the max - this is the normal long-term maxima which recurs year after year. What you can expect this year will depend critically on how dark it is when you observe - that means how much interference the moon causes. The nights before the peak may provide a few hours of darkness from some locations in the early morning hours. This is when you will likely see the most meteors. The peak will have many more meteors attenuated by moonlight but you may be able to see many bright meteors in spite of the moonlight. In any case, if you are planning to observe why not take note of some of the data listed below while you observe to make your observations valuable to those studying the structure of the stream. First, please remember to record your observing location to an accuracy of one degree or more. Secondly, DO NOT lump data from several observers into one report - always report each person's data separately. You may simply note which meteors are Perseids (those that appear to radiate from the area between Cassiopeia and the top of Perseus) and those that are not during an interval of at least one hour in length. If meteor rates are very high then intervals of 15 minutes may be adopted (rates greater than 2-300/hr). You do not have to note the time of appearance for every meteor, simply the time you began to watch for meteors and a time marker every hour or longer and then note all the meteors seen between these time markers. For your observation to be of use an estimate of the Limiting Magnitude - that is the faintest star visible to your eye in your field of view must also be made at least once per hour. Each observer should record his or her own LM - LM's vary between people depending on perception. Preferably, the LM should be estimated several times per hour to an accuracy of 0.1 Mv and an average of these readings used as the "best" LM measure. The amount your field of view is blocked either by terrestrial obstructions or by clouds (in which case a time-weighting should be used) should also be noted for every observing interval. Also, the effective time you actually spent watching the sky for meteors should also be recorded during each interval. Finally, for those with some meteor observing experience, it is useful to record the magnitudes of the meteors seen. Magnitude distributions should be reported per observer per night for both Perseid and non-Perseid meteors. If you are lucky enough to get this data for your observing campaign during the Perseids this year, the observations can be sent by email to the address below. It is of great interest to receive reports via email from observers within 7 days of the peak, so reports sent in this way by August 18 will be used for a preliminary look at what happened during the 1992 return of the Perseids. Later data can be sent via regular mail to the addresses below. Also, please remember to send reports of fireballs to the Fireball Data Center of the IMO the email address for which is given below. For quick email reports send to: peter@canlon.physics.uwo.ca For later reports for observers in North America send to: Peter Brown North American Section International Meteor Organization Dept. of Physics University of Western Ontario London, Ontario N6A 3K7 Canada For reports from outside North America send to: Rainer Arlt International Meteor Organization Berlinerstrasse 41, D-O-1560, Potsdam, Germany For fireball reports send to: Andre Knoefel Fireball Data Center International Meteor Organization Saarbrucker Strasse 8 D-W-4000 Dusseldorf 30, Germany email: starex@treff.gun.de ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 92 15:29:52 GMT From: Matthew DeLuca Subject: Soyuz as ACRV Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1992Aug4.150511.24762@iti.org> aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes: >In article <64976@hydra.gatech.EDU> ccoprmd@prism.gatech.EDU (Matthew DeLuca) writes: >>I'd like to see a Soyuz: >>(a) Stay up for two weeks for large-scale biomedical studies. >No problem. It will fly up to Fred, do the experiment, and return. I didn't ask if Fred could do it, I asked if Soyuz could. Obviously, it can't. >>(b) Put a crew of three outside to mate a new booster to a communications >> satellite. >No problem. Put the booster on a HLV, send them up in a Soyuz to Fred, and >they they mate the booster. Of course, the satellite that we're wanting to boost isn't anywhere near Fred. >>(c) Deploy and retrieve a tethered satellite. >No problem. Put the crew in a Soyuz, send them to Fred, deploy and retrieve >the satellite from there. Again, I didn't ask if Fred could do it, I asked if Soyuz could. Obviously, it can't. >>(d) Retrieve and return a long-duration exposure facility. >No problem. Use the OTV to retrieve the facility, bring it to Fred. There >remove the experiment panels, attach new ones, and return the experimental >panels with the next supply drop. You didn't even mention Soyuz in this one. >Why do you insist on focusing on one small part of this approach and then >demand it do everything? Because I was answering Henry's claim that Soyuz can do everything the shuttle can do, and it obviously can't. Anyway, I let the last couple of your posts slip by, and I probably won't respond to any more after this...I'm already getting complaints that this argument is repetitive. I can't get you to see that there's more involved than just dollar costs. Please continue by e-mail if you are interested. -- Matthew DeLuca "I'd hire the Dorsai, if I knew their Georgia Institute of Technology P.O. box." Office of Information Technology - Zebediah Carter, Internet: ccoprmd@prism.gatech.edu _The Number of the Beast_ ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 92 15:25:36 GMT From: Greg Hennessy Subject: Soyuz as ACRV Newsgroups: sci.space #No need to split it up. The Air Force has a Titan IV fairing which is fully #compatible with the Shuttle. There is a need to split it up. Having seven different instruments on HST caused a lot of compromises. Launching three smaller missions instead of one all singing all dancing one would have been cheaper, more reliable, and returned more data. -- -Greg Hennessy, University of Virginia USPS Mail: Astronomy Department, Charlottesville, VA 22903-2475 USA Internet: gsh7w@virginia.edu UUCP: ...!uunet!virginia!gsh7w ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 92 15:41:38 GMT From: Doug Mohney Subject: Soyuz as ACRV Newsgroups: sci.space In article <64969@hydra.gatech.EDU>, ccoprmd@prism.gatech.EDU (Matthew DeLuca) writes: >In article <1992Aug03.193652.29399@eng.umd.edu> sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu writes: >>In article <64951@hydra.gatech.EDU>, ccoprmd@prism.gatech.EDU (Matthew DeLuca) writes: > >>>I don't think you can fit any usable cargo in a three-man capsule. > >>So if you don't put men in them, what do you have room for? I'd say that you'd >>have at least the weight for oh 200lbs/person x 3 people = 600lbs of cargo. >>Strip or fold the seats out...c'mon, you make it sound like it's SOOO >>difficult. > >This is the ACRV, remember? Don't you think the people who are taking >the thing down would like to have seats to ride in? Hey Matt, we're talking about dual-use, and you're trying to carp back on it. I said you can use Soyuz as both cargo-return AND ACRV. You're whining and saying you can't use one capsule for both. Since it seems you're going to have to "replace" the Soyuz after 90-180 days, you might as well pull the seats and send stuff back on it. Or would you rather waste the space? Pulling the seats is no big deal; the Russians have it as SOP, when they move them from "old" Soyuz to "fresh" Soyuz. Humility delivered via flamethrower. No, not Croatia, but Usenet. -- > SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU < -- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Aug 92 15:35:40 GMT From: Doug Mohney Subject: Soyuz as ACRV Newsgroups: sci.space In article , henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes: >In article <1992Aug03.204851.551@eng.umd.edu> sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu writes: >>>1. Shuttle production is ended. This puts a maximum life on the fleet. >> >>Sure it does. Around 2010 or so. Of course, Henry is going to pop up here and >>say we'll lose one before then... > >You don't have to rely on me for this; your own NRC and OTA will tell you the >same thing... if you bother to listen. Forgive me, but harping on it is getting on my nerves. Will it give you great joy to see another bird lost? >>If you have to fix Freedom, you can't do it from a tin can. You'll NEED a >>Shuttle to do it from. Not a Soyuz. > >Odd. Why? There have been two major space-station-salvage missions flown >to date, both successful, both using Soyuz-type technology. (One used a >Soyuz, in fact, and the other used an Apollo.) Can you explain why you >think it is impossible? If you had your choice of one shuttle with a BIG payload and that CanadaArm (quite a beauty, eh?), seven people, and the capability to put three people with suits out the lock, plus anywhere from 7 days to 30 days on your own groceries, verses a 3 man shot with limited supplies, tools, no CanadaArm, which would you choose? Your margins for repair and salvage, not to mention on-orbit time, are MUCH smaller, plus you can bring lots more tools in the Shuttle payload bay. Plus the CanadaArm. Furthermore, both "rescues" were simple; i.e.; hit one docking adaptor, go inside, do whatever. With a shuttle, you could use the CanadaArm (did I mention that yet?) to grab onto the truss or use to remove/replace/restore a flapping solar panel. Of course, if we went tin-can, we could leave the CanadaArm home and cut back Canadian participation in the United States space program. Humility delivered via flamethrower. No, not Croatia, but Usenet. -- > SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU < -- ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 92 16:02:26 GMT From: Matthew DeLuca Subject: Soyuz as ACRV Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1992Aug04.154138.14464@eng.umd.edu> sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu writes: >In article <64969@hydra.gatech.EDU>, ccoprmd@prism.gatech.EDU (Matthew DeLuca) writes: >>This is the ACRV, remember? Don't you think the people who are taking >>the thing down would like to have seats to ride in? >Or would you rather waste the space? Pulling the seats is no big deal; the >Russians have it as SOP, when they move them from "old" Soyuz to "fresh" Soyuz. Wait...if they pull the seats, how do the cosmonauts ride the old one down? (Forgive me if I am missing something obvious...arguing with Allen has probably addled my brain.) -- Matthew DeLuca "I'd hire the Dorsai, if I knew their Georgia Institute of Technology P.O. box." Office of Information Technology - Zebediah Carter, Internet: ccoprmd@prism.gatech.edu _The Number of the Beast_ ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 92 15:40:16 GMT From: Mary Shafer Subject: Soyuz as ACRV Newsgroups: sci.space On 4 Aug 92 01:08:46 GMT, aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) said: AWS> In article shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer) writes: >AWS> At what cost? Sacrificing everything to high-speed aerodynamics just >AWS> isn't a good idea. >I don't know why you say this. It sounds like a _great_ idea to me. >Mary Shafer >Dryden Hypersonic Aircraft Group AWS> did I mention that part of the savings would be used by buy you AWS> your own NASP *AND* a brand new F-15? :-) That's a two-seat F-15, right? With a requirement for a handling qualities engineer in the back seat? Forget the NASP; I want an HL-20. (When I first came to work here at Dryden, as a summer-hire college student, the lifting bodies and X-15 were still flying. I've liked real lifting bodies ever since.) -- Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov Of course I don't speak for NASA "A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all." Unknown US fighter pilot ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1992 17:29:48 GMT From: "Allen W. Sherzer" Subject: Soyuz as ACRV Newsgroups: sci.space In article shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer) writes: >AWS> did I mention that part of the savings would be used by buy you >AWS> your own NASP *AND* a brand new F-15? :-) >That's a two-seat F-15, right? With a requirement for a handling >qualities engineer in the back seat? You want to fly in an F-15E? That's not a proper machine for somebody with the Right Stuff to strap on. I was thinking of a single seat version but if you can't pass the physical, we can loose the bomb racks and stick on some AIM-9L's. >Forget the NASP; I want an HL-20. No problemo. We'll call it risk reduction in case the SSTO's fail. Allen -- +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Allen W. Sherzer | "If they can put a man on the Moon, why can't they | | aws@iti.org | put a man on the Moon?" | +----------------------262 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX----------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Aug 92 19:05:35 GMT From: Doug Mohney Subject: Soyuz as ACRV Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1992Aug4.151737.26366@iti.org>, aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes: > >Let's see, I'm building: > >1. Two SSTO efforts $ 6 billion >2. OTV $ 2 billion >3. Lunar base $20 billion > Total $28 billion > >We are saving about $4 billion per year so it will take 7 years to pay >for it all. So we are just barely budgeted into the end of the decade. >I can squeez you in for 2000 if you have a pet project. > >Look at what we get: > > Option A Option B > 1. Working HLV 1. Working space shuttle > 2. two SSTO efforts > 3. Reduced MLV launch costs > 4. An OTV > 5. Lunar base > >Are you actually saying that for the same amount of money that Option B >is better than Option A? Shezer, you IGNORED the FACT that you had to beg and scrape and fight just to get money for one (1) SSTO effort. Where is your head? You also refused to recognize there aint' no MONEY for new program starts. Basically, you gotta stop the shuttle *cold* in order to grab the money you want. And it ain't gonna happen cuz shuttle is booked through 1998-2000 to build Freedom. You refuse to recognize the problems NASA has with examining Soyuz as a limited use vehicle (ACRV). There is a fundmental in-house cultural bias, also called "Not Invented Here" and you are proposing dumping Shuttle for a tin can. You have yet to address how you're going to shutdown Rockwell International and the thousands of workers who currently work on the Shuttle, other than "they'll be able to get jobs on these new projects." I'll believe it when I see it. Shuttle is a national asset. The last national asset we ditched which we'd like to have back is Saturn V. Humility delivered via flamethrower. No, not Croatia, but Usenet. -- > SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU < -- ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 92 19:22:11 GMT From: Doug Mohney Subject: Soyuz as ACRV Newsgroups: sci.space In article <65055@hydra.gatech.EDU>, ccoprmd@prism.gatech.EDU (Matthew DeLuca) writes: >In article <1992Aug04.154138.14464@eng.umd.edu> sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu writes: >>In article <64969@hydra.gatech.EDU>, ccoprmd@prism.gatech.EDU (Matthew DeLuca) writes: > >>>This is the ACRV, remember? Don't you think the people who are taking >>>the thing down would like to have seats to ride in? > >>Or would you rather waste the space? Pulling the seats is no big deal; the >>Russians have it as SOP, when they move them from "old" Soyuz to "fresh" Soyuz. > >Wait...if they pull the seats, how do the cosmonauts ride the old one down? Lookie. What usually happens is (i'm sure I'll get corrected 27 different ways): Long-duration crew (6-9 months average) goes up, with Soyuz #1 90-120 days roll by, Soyuz #1 is getting old, making way for... Launch of 7-10 day visiting crew, usually two cosmonauts and one "guest" in Soyuz #2. Soyuz #2 docks. They swap couches with Soyuz #1. Visit finishes, visiting crew takes Soyuz #1 down, leaves Soyuz #2 in place. Longest duration of a Soyuz in orbit connected to Mir is something like 150-183 days; they had a pad abort on a swap mission, and nothing else lined up so there were some serious sweating going on before they decided to bring the two men down on the old Soyuz. You could send the Soyuz on automatic dock (stop, stop, they do it with Progress resupply, same deal...), fill it up with goodies (fresh fruit and lettuce, plus other perishables). Take the old Soyuz and fill it with whatever you want (garbage, returnable materials, whatever) and deorbit it. >(Forgive me if I am missing something obvious...arguing with Allen has probably >addled my brain.) Naw. It's kinda like talking deficit reduction plans with a presidential candidate. All the number magically add up, and you have money left over to spend on someone else's pet project. Support U.N. military force against Serbia -- > SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU < -- ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 92 19:25:30 GMT From: John Roberts Subject: TSS update (indirect via NASA Select) Newsgroups: sci.space No release of the TSS yet - it appears to be stuck. Maybe they need to unpack the Ferrous Portable Leverage Application Mechanism (FPLM), the Passive Maximal Kinetic Transfer Device (PMKTD), and the Linear Metallic Abrasive System (LMAS), and try an EVA. :-) John Roberts roberts@cmr.ncsl.nist.gov ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 92 17:20:03 GMT From: "Allen W. Sherzer" Subject: What is the ASRM?? Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.space.shuttle In article <1992Aug4.140921.19282@aio.jsc.nasa.gov> pettengi@ial1.jsc.nasa.gov (James B. Pettengill) writes: >the asrm program is dead for now but not for long. it should be resurrected >latter this year or next. Don't count on it. >fred can't get off the ground without asrm. Unless they use Energia. Allen -- +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Allen W. Sherzer | "If they can put a man on the Moon, why can't they | | aws@iti.org | put a man on the Moon?" | +----------------------262 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX----------------------+ ------------------------------ End of Space Digest Volume 15 : Issue 071 ------------------------------