Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 05:00:02 From: Space Digest maintainer Reply-To: Space-request@isu.isunet.edu Subject: Space Digest V15 #042 To: Space Digest Readers Precedence: bulk Space Digest Tue, 28 Jul 92 Volume 15 : Issue 042 Today's Topics: Astronomy Lab for MS Windows 3.X - BETA TESTERS NEEDED Delta (2 msgs) E-mail newsletters Food additive? (was Re: Antimatter (was propulsion questions)) History of black holes (was Re: Relativity in science fiction) Innumeracy: Won't You Please Help?(was Re: Whales (SETI)) Martino's lunar suicide (was Re: message from Space Digest) Methods for meteor avoidance NASP, NLS, SSTO, etc. Radiative heat loss (2 msgs) Relativity in science fiction)READ/NEXT Space position Tethersat visible? (was Re: TSS-1 launch time) Whales (SETI) (3 msgs) Whales and Dolphins Welcome to the Space Digest!! Please send your messages to "space@isu.isunet.edu", and (un)subscription requests of the form "Subscribe Space " to one of these addresses: listserv@uga (BITNET), rice::boyle (SPAN/NSInet), utadnx::utspan::rice::boyle (THENET), or space-REQUEST@isu.isunet.edu (Internet). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 08:59:36 GMT From: Subject: Astronomy Lab for MS Windows 3.X - BETA TESTERS NEEDED Newsgroups: comp.windows.ms,comp.ibm.pc.misc,sci.astro,sci.space,sci.edu,comp.windows.ms.programmer,comp.binaries.ibm.pc.d I also tried to write to become a beta tester, and had mail bounce... Any other suggestions??? -- _ _ _ __ ' ) ) ) / ) _/_ / / / o _. __ _ --- / / __. / __. / ' (_<_(__/ (_(_) /__/_(_/|_<__(_/|_ C O N S U L T A N T S Kenn Booth II >-< kennii@wybbs.mi.org ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 92 09:42:42 GMT From: George William Herbert Subject: Delta Newsgroups: sci.space In article <9207261355.AA18061@cmr.ncsl.nist.gov> roberts@CMR.NCSL.NIST.GOV (John Roberts) writes: >[...] >There have been proposals for a heavylift Delta, which as I gather is >essentially a whole batch of Delta rockets (complete with boosters) >strapped together. >[...] The HL Delta design doesn't use solid boosters on all the "core" vehicles... the one I saw had 24 Castors, four per on the six outer Delta vehicles. The problem that you pointed out [deleted from included text] with staging solid boosters from the "inside" of the cluster is avoided by not putting any inside 8-) The HL Delta is a neat vehicle concept... it does as reported here have a safety margin in excess of 2.0 in all of the new hardware, because the designer didn't want to spend $5 billion dollars and five years to qualify it. He was figuring an order of magnitude less expensive and eighteen months. Probably optimistically, but nonethelessvery reasonable. 8-) I had a chance to talk to him for a while ... he knew it could be done quick and dirty and wanted to do it that way, dammit. 8-) [name escapes me entirely, and I may not have written it down... sorry]. -george william herbert gwh@soda.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 92 12:38:29 GMT From: "Allen W. Sherzer" Subject: Delta Newsgroups: sci.space In article <9207261355.AA18061@cmr.ncsl.nist.gov> roberts@CMR.NCSL.NIST.GOV (John Roberts) writes: >There have been proposals for a heavylift Delta, which as I gather is >essentially a whole batch of Delta rockets (complete with boosters) >strapped together. The HL Delta is six Delta first stages connected together (like what was done for the Saturn 1B) and three SRBs. No Delta boosters are used. The second stage is simply another Delta first stage. >Given the wide divergence of the flame, how are the >flames of the multiple Deltas to be prevented from interfering with one >another Since the Delta boosters aren't used I don't think this is a problem. >given the way the SRBs detach, how are the ones "inside" the cluster of >deltas going to be assured clearance so that they avoid hitting the >structure? (I have a mental image of a huge latticework like the dome of >the Astrodome, imbedded with widely-spaced Deltas, rising up into the sky. :-) The spearation systems are all off the shelf. The SRBs will use the same system as with the Shuttle. Your mental image of the design is incorrect (I think). Imagine two Delta first stages (without boosters) bolted together. Call that a Delta cluster. Now imagine three Delat Clusters connected together to form a triangle. Then put a SRB at the place where the three clusters connect. That is the first stage. The second stage is a Delta first stage which fits inside the triangle made in the first stage. I'm going out of town tonight but I have some postscript drawings I can post if ther is interest when I get back. >Are these considered solved problems, or is that what the proposed development >funding would be for? I believe these where all addressed in the phase I study. I have seen some of the drawings and it looks like they got pretty far along. >The flight commentary also mentioned that this launch was the last to use >this specific configuration, which has a perfect operational record. Anybody >know what configuration is to be used in the future? (Allen, I'm hoping >you know something about this. :-) Sorry, the only aerospace hardware I know of with a perfect operational record is the HAL 9000 series computers. As of July 27, 1992 they have never made a mistake or distorted information. :-) Allen -- +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Allen W. Sherzer | "If they can put a man on the Moon, why can't they | | aws@iti.org | put a man on the Moon?" | +----------------------270 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX----------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 92 09:12:24 GMT From: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey Subject: E-mail newsletters Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1992Jul22.171021.2259@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, ewininge@nyx.cs.du.edu (Eric Wininger) writes: > Are there any newsletters that are disseminated through e-mail relating > to the topics of astronomy/space science/NASA Headline News. I think it worthwhile to point out that a number of mailing lists are discussed in the monthly posting of "Frequently Asked Questions." Look in the one titled "Subject: Space FAQ 02/15 - Network Resources" for information about mailing lists. Lists covered include: SPACE Digest Space-investors Space-tech SEDS-L (Students for the Exploration and Development of Space) SEDSNEWS A quick search through the list of LISTSERV lists on Bitnet turns up some further candidates: List name Address for Description postings (NOT for subscription requests! -------- ---------------- --------------------------------- ASTRO-PL ASTRO-PL@JPNYITP Preprint server for Astrophysics (What the heck, I'll throw this next one in:) ASTROL-L ASTROL-L@BRUFPB FORUM FOR ASTROLOGICAL DISCUSSION CANSPACE CANSPACE@UNBVM1 Canadian Space Geodesy Forum ISDS ISDS@UIUCVMD ISDS Illini Space Development Society List JCMT-L JCMT-L@UALTAVM James Clerk Maxwell Telescope SPACE SPACE@FINHUTC (Peered) SPACE Digest SPACE@TCSVM (Peered) SPACE Digest SPACE@UBVM (Peered) SPACE Digest SPACE@UGA (Peered) SPACE Digest SPACE-IL SPACE-IL@TAUNIVM Israeli Space & Remote Sensing List To subscribe to any of these, send mail to LISTSERV@node, where "node" is the Bitnet node in the second column, by your favorite method of getting mail to Bitnet. The mail should say "SUB Listname Your_Name" in the body of the message. Bill Higgins, Beam Jockey | The restaurant's architect Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory | said every effort had been Bitnet: HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET | made to build McDonald's Internet: HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV | 15th outlet in Italy SPAN/Hepnet: 43011::HIGGINS | in harmony with Pompeii. | --Reuters story in *Chicago | Sun-Times*, 18 June 92 ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 92 07:34:52 GMT From: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey Subject: Food additive? (was Re: Antimatter (was propulsion questions)) Newsgroups: sci.space In article , rmartin@thor.Rational.COM (Bob Martin) writes: > pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering) writes: > > |BTW, Antimatter should also be rather stable at low temperatures. > |Some of the positrons should boil off and be annihilated, leaving the > |rest of the antimatter with a net negative charge. This should keep > |electrons away, while keeping enough positrons bound to the set of > |molecules to "screen" away protons and other positive nuclei... > > I'm beginning to think that this stuff is so stable that you could use > it as a food additive. Plop, plop, fizz, fizz, where is the kaboom it > gives. Once I was in a bakery with another physicist. The display cases incorporated mirrors. Right next to a pile of brownies was another pile labeled "SEINWORB c55." That's when we conceived our diet book: THE AMAZING ANTIMATTER DIET: Eat All You Want and *Still* Lose Weight! Alas, we got busy with other projects and never got around to writing it... Bill Higgins, Beam Jockey | "I'm gonna keep on writing Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory | songs until I write the song Bitnet: HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET | that makes the guys in Internet: HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV | Detroit who build the cars SPAN/Hepnet: 43011::HIGGINS | put tailfins on 'em again." --John Prine ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 92 12:25:54 GMT From: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey Subject: History of black holes (was Re: Relativity in science fiction) Newsgroups: sci.space In article <9207250444.AA14607@cmr.ncsl.nist.gov>, roberts@CMR.NCSL.NIST.GOV (John Roberts) writes: [in speaking of Doc Smith and the Lensman series] > I've wondered about the chronology of the "negaspheres" (first appearing > in the series in 1951, and apparently equivalent to antimatter black > holes) and the development of theories on black holes. When did serious > theorization on black holes come along? Laplace figured out (about 1780?) that if escape velocity for a body was the speed of light, it might be invisible. Set GM/R = .5*(c**2) and you can find the radius of a "classical" black hole of a given mass. I heard somewhere that this is incorrect but the right order of magnitude for a relativistic BH. But it's been a long time since I had anything to do with black holes, so check with an expert. J.R. Oppenheimer, working with somebody else who has slipped my mind, published some work on "modern" black holes in the mid-1930s. O~~* /_) ' / / /_/ ' , , ' ,_ _ \|/ - ~ -~~~~~~~~~~~/_) / / / / / / (_) (_) / / / _\~~~~~~~~~~~zap! / \ (_) (_) / | \ | | Bill Higgins Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory \ / Bitnet: HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET - - Internet: HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV ~ SPAN/Hepnet: 43011::HIGGINS ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 92 12:21:05 GMT From: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey Subject: Innumeracy: Won't You Please Help?(was Re: Whales (SETI)) Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1992Jul27.054148.19489@ke4zv.uucp>, gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman) writes: > In article <13754@mindlink.bc.ca> Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow) writes: >>gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman) writes: >> >>> Any creature that doesn't grasp mathematics can't be said to be intelligent. >> >>Well, that lets out a lot of high school graduates. :-) > > And a lot of college graduates and most politicians. Innumeracy is a > major problem. Yes. It's an affliction suffered by billions. Or was that millions? Anyway, "many." Bill Higgins | Every so often, Innumeracy Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory | strikes. Out of all Americans, Bitnet: HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET | a lot suffer from it. But Internet: HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV | we can win the fight against SPAN/Hepnet: 43011::HIGGINS | Innumeracy with your help. | All it takes is a few pennies a day. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 92 10:24:57 GMT From: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey Subject: Martino's lunar suicide (was Re: message from Space Digest) Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1992Jul23.173503.17904@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, bmartino@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob Martino) writes: +> In article <1992Jul20.202613.268441@cs.cmu.edu+> TSURAH01@asntsu.asn.net writes: +>>To Anyone on this list who would enjoy answering my question about outer +>>space: +>> I am an artist and independent producer. [...] +>> Tomorrow you leave [...] to colonize the moon. +>>[...]and must weigh no +>>more than a pound. In it you must pack whatever you need to sustain you +> ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ +>>emotionally and spiritually in outer space. +> ^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^ +>> What will you choose?? +> +> You're kidding, right?? +> +> I'd take a small ceremonial knife from some far away eastern +> nation so that I could slit my wrists and/or throat. +> If ONE POUND is all that I was allowed for personal effects, +> including entertainment and spiritual comfort, I'd go absolutely +> bonkers inside of a couple of months. Same would be true for +> any normal human. Gee whiz, Bob, haven't you ever done a Gedankenexperiment? A friendly artist shows up and asks your opinion and you flame her (or him, we don't have a name) right between the eyes! I concede that you gave an answer to the question. If you really feel that way, I suggest you take a pint bottle of cyanide instead. You can use it to trade with your suicidal crewmates for as long as you're still interested in staying alive. Bill Higgins, Beam Jockey | According to the doctrine Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory | of natural selection, Bitnet: HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET | *you* were designed Internet: HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV | by a committee. SPAN/Hepnet: 43011::HIGGINS | The biggest committee ever. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 92 13:00:08 GMT From: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey Subject: Methods for meteor avoidance Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1992Jul26.071133.18449@metapro.DIALix.oz.au>, bernie@metapro.DIALix.oz.au (Bernd Felsche) writes: >>In article brendan.woithe@f820.n680.z3.fido.zeta.org.au (Brendan Woithe) writes: >>>After the meteor from last year passed withinn 4 minutes of the earth (the >>>large one), I was wondering if we have any system of avoiding these >>>large beasts??!! ... > > For very large meteors, it may actually be more practical to > subtly change our own orbit (not through nuclear explosions!), > though the environmental impact of doing this is mind-blowing. ANNOUNCER: "Innumeracy-- it doesn't just strike Americans. It's a global problem." Bernie's statement is true-- for all "meteors" more massive than the Earth. Fortunately, such meteors are rare. We know of only five in our Solar System, and only one has ever passed closer than 100 million miles. > How we change the orbit is left as an exercise for the student. :-) I claim that any method which works for changing the Earth's orbit, works even better for changing the asteroid orbit, as long as the asteroid's mass is less than 6E24 kg. Flame me if I'm wrong. ANNOUNCER: "Once, Innumeracy was thought to be a rare disease. But now, in just a short time, it has spread to afflict, um, very many people... in a lot of countries across the globe. Please give to the Campaign Against Innumeracy. We're Counting On You." During the first and second stage Bill Higgins flights of the vehicle, if a serious Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory irretrievable fault should occur and HIGGINS@FNALB.BITNET the deviation of the flight attitude of HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV the vehicle exceeds a predetermined SPAN/Hepnet: 43011::HIGGINS value, the attitude self-destruction system will make the vehicle self-destroyed. --Long March 3 User's Manual Ministry of Astronautics, People's Republic of China (1985) ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 92 13:22:20 GMT From: bd <@dartmouth.EDU:bd@fluent (Brice Dowaliby)> Subject: NASP, NLS, SSTO, etc. Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.aeronautics In article jim@netlink.cts.com (Jim Bowery) writes: >I'm disappointed in Clinton. I thought he was just a national socialist. >I didn't realize he had gone all the way to being a communist. I'm a little confused... Clinton plans to cut a bunch of public money for NASP, SSTO, and "a few other launch systems" and this makes him a commie? Jim, I'd love to hear your line of reasoning. Reagan's defense build-up was the largest welfare program in history! I'm not saying I support Clinton's position (haven't read enough about it to know) but I am curious as to how cutting public spending makes one a communist. -- Brice Dowaliby | I may speak fluently, but (bd%fluent@dartmouth.edu) | I don't speak for Fluent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 12:48:16 BST From: amon@elegabalus.cs.qub.ac.uk Subject: Radiative heat loss > The *square*? Please double-check. > > John Roberts > roberts@cmr.ncsl.nist.gov > John is right. It is a T^3 factor. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 14:28:07 BST From: amon@elegabalus.cs.qub.ac.uk Subject: Radiative heat loss > Fourth power, not a linear relationship in any event. > > Gary > Oh, well, I knew it was I higher power at least :-) ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 92 11:21:10 GMT From: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey Subject: Relativity in science fiction)READ/NEXT Newsgroups: sci.space In article <9207250444.AA14607@cmr.ncsl.nist.gov>, roberts@CMR.NCSL.NIST.GOV (John Roberts) writes: [in speaking of Doc Smith and the Lensman series] > I've wondered about the chronology of the "negaspheres" (first appearing > in the series in 1951, and apparently equivalent to antimatter black > holes) and the development of theories on black holes. When did serious > theorization on black holes come along? Laplace figured out (about 1780?) that if escape velocity for a body was the speed of light, it might be invisible. Set GM/R = .5*(c**2) and you can find the radius of a "classical" black hole of a given mass. I heard somewhere that this is incorrect but the right order of magnitude for a relativistic BH. But it's been a long time since I had anything to do with black holes, so check with an expert. J.R. Oppenheimer, working with somebody else who has slipped my mind, published some work on "modern" black holes in the mid-1930s. O~~* /_) ' / / /_/ ' , , ' ,_ _ \|/ - ~ -~~~~~~~~~~~/_) / / / / / / (_) (_) / / / _\~~~~~~~~~~~zap! / \ (_) (_) / | \ | | Bill Higgins Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory \ / Bitnet: HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET - - Internet: HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV ~ SPAN/Hepnet: 43011::HIGGINS ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 12:25:25 GMT From: "Allen W. Sherzer" Subject: Space position Newsgroups: sci.space In article <9207261215.AA17967@cmr.ncsl.nist.gov> roberts@CMR.NCSL.NIST.GOV (John Roberts) writes: >-I would hate to see the just beginning effort to fix NASA get derailed. >Who on Earth would want to replace Goldin, when he's had such a promising >start? Not everybody think it is a promising start. None other than Senator Albert Gore thought things where fine under Truly and objected strongly to his firing. >There are plenty of examples of Cabinet members being kept on through >a change in Administration, if they're doing well. (And, in case you didn't >know, Goldin is actually a Democrat, though that doesn't get talked about >much. :-) I would guess that Goldin is likely to stay, whoever is elected. I hope so. We will need to push for it should Clinton be elected. But without support from the administration, Goldin's abilities are very limited. I don't expect, for example, to see support for Moon/Mars which Goldin is likely to push for. >->Note that the platform isn't too different from the current trends in >->Administration and Congress - keep the manned program going, support... >-Except for two important differences: >-1. They want to keep the Shuttle which currently consumes 1/3 of the >-NASA budget. >*Everybody* wants to keep the Shuttle for the time being, though nobody's >particularly happy about it. I don't know about Clinton but I doubt Gore sees any pressing need to replace the Shuttle. >-2. clinton pretty much comes out and says there will be no effort put >-inot Moon/Mars. >As opposed to the current thriving SEI program? :-) There is a BIG difference between an administration pushing the program and looking for ways to fund it and one willing to let it die a quiet death. >Seriously, what >candidate with a reasonable chance of election has promised more, *and* >given some clue as to where the money would come from? It's not a question of money but one of will. We currently spend all we need to for Moon/Mars. >(It's my own opinion that starting actual manned Mars exploration / lunar >colonization right now, with current hardware, would be a mistake... Why? IMHO most of what we will need we won't develop until we get there. The Russians have the best EVA gloves available. They have them because they needeed them. Demand is the best way to drive inovation. >-Except that the funding won't be transfered. >Just after I posted that, I read somewhere that the current Administration >has expressed interest in the same thing. If both major parties are behind >it, it might happen. but will funding be transfered? The odds are better it will under Bush since he has a better track record. The only person on the other ticket with a track record has shown he just doesn't care one way or the other. >So why doncha write letters *before* the election to any candidates who you >feel are less than fully supportive of space exploration, urging them to >change their positions? :-) Agreed. >Personally, I hope space is a nonissue in the upcoming election. With such >a close similarity of platform positions, that might turn out to be the case. I doubt space will be an issue. But that isn't a good thing. The platforms may be similar (although I suspect we will see important differences when the Republican platform comes out) but the track records backing them up are miles apart. Allen -- +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Allen W. Sherzer | "If they can put a man on the Moon, why can't they | | aws@iti.org | put a man on the Moon?" | +----------------------270 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX----------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 92 11:11:28 GMT From: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey Subject: Tethersat visible? (was Re: TSS-1 launch time) Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1992Jul24.163952.23514@technology.com>, richard@technology.com (Richard Murphy) writes: > TSS-1 is set for launch at 13:56 GMT July 31. The satellite > deployment should begin early on Aug. 2. Hmm... when TSS is deployed, will ground observers be able to see two little dots? If the satellite is not a naked-eye object, will it be possible to spot *Atlantis* by eyeball, track with binoculars, and find the TSS? The orbit is 28.5 degree inclination, so Chicagoans can't play. :-( If you live in between, oh, latitude 35 and the Equator (either direction), fire up those prediction programs and subscribe to elements-request@telesoft.com... Engineer of Hijacked Train: Bill Higgins "Is this a holdup?" Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory Masked Gunman: (Hesitates, looks at partner, Bitnet: HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET looks at engineer again) SPAN/Hepnet/Physnet: 43011::HIGGINS "It's a science experiment!" Internet: HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 92 07:48:29 GMT From: Nick Janow Subject: Whales (SETI) Newsgroups: sci.space rwallace@unix1.tcd.ie (russell wallace) writes: > That doesn't prove that they are not intelligent. They could have reasons > for letting men kill them; reasons that they understand but we don't. Look > at all the absurd things humans do in the name of religion. Aliens judging > humans by a few religious fanatics might decide that humans aren't > intelligent. :) By that argument, you could suggest that chairs are intelligent, but for reasons we do not understand choose not to reveal that intelligence, and instead let humans sit on them and push them around. Actually, I made no mention of proving that whales _are_ intelligent; I simply pointed out that your argument did not prove that whales were not intelligent. Likewise, a chair's lack of apparent intelligent response is not sufficient proof that it is not intelligent, though it certainly doesn't support a theory that it is intelligent. :) > I would suggest that there is absolutely no reason to believe whales are > intelligent, ... There is reason to believe that they might be. They have large, complex brains, communicate via complex sounds (though we don't know how much information is actually exchanged), and engage in activities that could be signs of intelligence. However, there is nothing yet that I know of that convinces me that they are intelligent at a level that makes them more than simply an animal. There is also nothing that convinces me to the contrary. > ...and that furthermore they definitely do not do certain things that can > reasonably be regarded as showing intelligence, such as using it to preserve > their lives (when humans evolved intelligence, this was the *first* thing we > use it for), and that therefore it is reasonable to conclude that whales are > not intelligent, unless and until we find some evidence that they are. That only proves that they don't possess both human intelligence _and_ human thought patterns (motivations, philosophies, etc). It is not sufficient proof that they are not intelligent. I don't believe that human motivations are the only ones intelligent beings can possess. Imagine that whales have intelligence at our level, and they all share a common religion. This religion states that life is a temporary phase on the way to something better, and that dying is nothing to be concerned about. That religion might also state (through an interpretation of the "Dead Sea Song") that revealing to any non-whale beings that whales are intelligent is a terrible sin which would send that whale to eternal agony. There: an explanation for whales' apparent lack of intelligent activity or concern for death. Mass beachings could be a religious ceremony equivalent to sacrificing a goat to bring the sun back, or bowing to Mecca at noon. It is no more ludicrous than most human religions. Perhaps whale's form of intelligence makes belief in religion far stronger than humanities (ie. whales have less doubt), and thus no whales sneak off to talk to media reporters. :) -- Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 92 05:41:48 GMT From: Gary Coffman Subject: Whales (SETI) Newsgroups: sci.space In article <13754@mindlink.bc.ca> Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow) writes: >gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman) writes: > >> Any creature that doesn't grasp mathematics can't be said to be intelligent. > >Well, that lets out a lot of high school graduates. :-) And a lot of college graduates and most politicians. Innumeracy is a major problem. Gary ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 15:05:33 GMT From: "R. Cage" Subject: Whales (SETI) Newsgroups: sci.space In article <9207251435.AA15413@cmr.ncsl.nist.gov> roberts@CMR.NCSL.NIST.GOV (John Roberts) writes: >Whales clearly lack some of the intellectual capabilities of humans (for >instance, humans don't appear to be prone to mass beachings). Then what do you call the migrations to Ft. Lauderdale, Miami, California, Hawaii, etc. whenever the weather is nice? ;-) Seriously, humans have had mass suicides (Jonestown), institutionalized mass murder (Germany under Hitler, Cambodia under Pol Pot, Ukraine under Stalin, to name a few from this century), cults of self-genocide (the Shakers), and other incidents of doing in large numbers of ourselves. If the whale beachings are cetacian seppuku, then it's not clear that they are any less intelligent than we are, just *different* (not too surprising). If it's accident, then it's not clear that their sonar and limited sight (accidents of evolution) are not more to blame than any lack of brainpower. >It would be >interesting to find out what capabilities they do have, for instance in the >area of abstract reasoning. Indeed it would. The results would be enlightening regardless of what they were, so long as they were well-grounded. -- Russ Cage wreck@fmsrl7.srl.ford.com russ%rsi.uucp@destroyer.rs.itd.umich.edu * When Ford pays me for my opinions, THEN they can call them theirs. * _Bad_ cop. No donut. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 13:14:22 BST From: amon@elegabalus.cs.qub.ac.uk Subject: Whales and Dolphins > Whales clearly lack some of the intellectual capabilities of humans (for > instance, humans don't appear to be prone to mass beachings). It would be > But to be fair, this may be due to disease or to perceptual problems with their echo-system in shallow waters. It might be a whalish equivalent of being stuck in a room with built in optical illusions. This could bring up some interesting questions. Human perception can be fooled by certain illusions because of the way we have evolved our perceptual systems. One might wonder what sorts of illusions evolution on other worlds might toss up. Note that even given the same sort of environment, there is a certain sensitivity to WHEN certain capabilities evolve. There are illusions that occur not at the low level, but at higher levels of perception and across visual perception subsystems. (ie color vision is actually an entirely seperate visual subsystem from that which maps motion, since it relatively new in evolutionary terms.) ------------------------------ End of Space Digest Volume 15 : Issue 042 ------------------------------