Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 05:00:05 From: Space Digest maintainer Reply-To: Space-request@isu.isunet.edu Subject: Space Digest V15 #021 To: Space Digest Readers Precedence: bulk Space Digest Wed, 22 Jul 92 Volume 15 : Issue 021 Today's Topics: ASTRONOMY LAB BETA TESTER Astronomy Lab for MS Windows 3.X - BETA TESTERS NEEDED (2 msgs) does anyone know??? (2 msgs) Facility Tours (3 msgs) Galileo found intelligent life? (was Re: Whale killing ..) Galileo Update - 07/20/92 Looking gif horse in mouth Muon-catalyzed fusion Need Testers for MS Windows Astronomy Program No markets in space? (was Re: Chemical unit operations in space) Phobos2-probe UFO pic-pro and contra (2 msgs) Testers for Astronomy Lab: NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS!!! U.S. Black Programs Whale killing for "science" -- so for what? (2 msgs) Welcome to the Space Digest!! Please send your messages to "space@isu.isunet.edu". Please do **NOT** send (un)subscription requests to that address! Instead, send a message of the form "Subscribe Space " to one of these addresses: listserv@uga (BITNET), RICE::BOYLE (SPAN/NSInet), UTADNX::UTSPAN::RICE::BOYLE (THENET), or space-REQUEST@isu.isunet.edu (Internet). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 14:10 CET From: "Truffa Giancarlo,Agrate B.,Italy * 39-39-6035.815" Subject: ASTRONOMY LAB BETA TESTER I WOULD BE BETA TESTER OF ASTRONOMY LAB PROGRAM. I WASN'T ABLE TO USE DIRECTLY BOTH ADDRESSES. MY INFORMATIONS ARE: Name: GIANCARLO TRUFFA US Mail Address: NONE MAIL Address: via Rombon,29/ 20134 MILAN/ITALY E-Mail Address: TRUFFA@AGRCAM.ST.IT Version of MS-Windows: 3.1 Version of MS-DOS: 5.0 CPU: 80386 SX Math Coprocessor (not required): 80387 Memory: 4 MB Graphics Card: SVGA TSENG 4000 Printer: EPSON LX800 THANK'S ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 14:06:03 GMT From: Marcell Stoer Subject: Astronomy Lab for MS Windows 3.X - BETA TESTERS NEEDED Newsgroups: comp.windows.ms,comp.ibm.pc.misc,sci.astro,sci.space,sci.edu,comp.windows.ms.programmer,comp.binaries.ibm.pc.d In article <1992Jul20.194444.11806@CERIS.Purdue.EDU> tfisher@CERIS.Purdue.EDU (Tom Fisher) writes: > > Sorry, I know that I shouldn't post this, but the mail bounced when I > tried to e-mail to you. I had the same problem. Finger says all is OK, but the daemon sends my mail back. Please sign me up as well. My info : mstoer@sol.uvic.ca Windows 3.0 Dos 4.0 25 MHz 386 8M RAM ATI VGA 256K 120M Harddrive Roland PR2417, HP LaserJet III running PCL and an 80387 -- Marcell Stoer Internet : mstoer@sol.uvic.ca Department of Chemistry Molecular Beam Laser Spectrometry Laboratory Voice : (604) 721-8975 University of Victoria FAX : (604) 721-7147 -- Marcell Stoer Internet : mstoer@sol.uvic.ca Department of Chemistry Molecular Beam Laser Spectrometry Laboratory Voice : (604) 721-8975 University of Victoria FAX : (604) 721-7147 ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jul 92 16:24:07 GMT From: "Michael Bower Comm. " Subject: Astronomy Lab for MS Windows 3.X - BETA TESTERS NEEDED Newsgroups: comp.windows.ms,comp.ibm.pc.misc,sci.astro,sci.space,sci.edu,comp.windows.ms.programmer,comp.binaries.ibm.pc.d Me, three. I kep t getting bounced as well. Name: Michael Bower US Mail Address: 2037 Maleady Drive; Herndon, VA 22070 E-Mail Address: bower@hfsi.com Version of MS-Windows: 3.1 Version of MS-DOS: 5.0 CPU: 386SX-20 Math Coprocessor (not required): Cyrix 387SX-25 Memory: 8 Meg Graphics Card: Paradise SVGA Printer: Panasonic KX-P1124 (access to HP Ljet III at work where I will also test) Eric Bergman-Terrell ebergman@nyx.cs.du.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 12:31:49 GMT From: Nick Haines Subject: does anyone know??? Newsgroups: sci.space In article kale@usc.edu (Nitin Kale) writes: does anyone know how i can get in touch with Dr. Stephen Hawking ? email , ph. no., address ???? Yes, I do. I don't know if I should tell you his email address, though. Look at it this way, he's a very busy man with a terminal illness and great communication difficulties. Replying to anything you send him would likely take him hours. I think his time is more valuable than that. The thought of him communicating by telephone is so tragic it's almost funny. Oh, I can give you this snail address, since I imagine it gets processed by secretaries: Dr S.W.Hawking DAMTP Mill Lane Cambridge England ----------------------------------- Nick Haines nickh@cs.cmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 14:40:55 GMT From: Christopher Neufeld Subject: does anyone know??? Newsgroups: sci.space In article nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines) writes: >In article kale@usc.edu (Nitin Kale) writes: > > does anyone know how i can get in touch with Dr. Stephen Hawking ? > email , ph. no., address ???? > >Yes, I do. I don't know if I should tell you his email address, >though. Look at it this way, he's a very busy man with a terminal >illness and great communication difficulties. Replying to anything you >send him would likely take him hours. I think his time is more >valuable than that. > His graduate students answer his correspondance, possibly after consulting with him for some of the details. Just a couple of months ago somebody came up to me asking for a 'translation' (physics to English) of the answer he got to a letter he sent to Stephen Hawking. The reply clearly stated that it had been written by a grad student. The rest was not so clear, but that was probably because I didn't know the original question as phrased, and the fellow who showed me the letter didn't have a copy of the letter he sent. -- Christopher Neufeld....Just a graduate student | Talk sense to a fool neufeld@helios.physics.utoronto.ca Ad astra | and he calls you cneufeld@terranet.cts.com | foolish. "Don't edit reality for the sake of simplicity" | - Euripides ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 10:24:38 -0400 From: Theodore Wadsworth Subject: Facility Tours Newsgroups: talk.politics.space,sci.space Does anyone know the charges for tours of the various NASA facilities (Huntsville Space Center, "Space Camp", ...)? Please respond to sender. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jul 92 15:36:00 GMT From: Mary Shafer Subject: Facility Tours Newsgroups: talk.politics.space,sci.space On 21 Jul 92 06:24:38 GMT, tw1t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Theodore Wadsworth) said: T> Does anyone know the charges for tours of the various NASA facilities T> (Huntsville Space Center, "Space Camp", ...)? Dryden's tour is free, although a reservation is required. -- Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov Of course I don't speak for NASA "A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all." Unknown US fighter pilot ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 16:10:12 GMT From: Paul Robichaux Subject: Facility Tours Newsgroups: talk.politics.space,sci.space In tw1t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Theodore Wadsworth) writes: >Does anyone know the charges for tours of the various NASA facilities >(Huntsville Space Center, "Space Camp", ...)? The US Space and Rocket Center (a commercial enterprise) operates Space Camp; I don't know how much the various camps cost, but they do have an 800 number. The Space and Rocket Center also has a nifty museum, an IMAX theater, and a _very_ good bus tour of Marshall Space Flight Center facilities. $11.95 adults, ~$6 kids. 9am-5pm, 7 days a week, all year except Christmas (they _are_ open on Easter!) A happy and frequent visitor, -Paul -- Paul Robichaux, KD4JZG | I shouldn't bitch / I shouldn't cry robichau@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov | I'd start a revolution but I don't have time. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 14:37:35 GMT From: Hartmut Frommert Subject: Galileo found intelligent life? (was Re: Whale killing ..) Newsgroups: sci.space arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes: [discussion of intelligence deleted] >>(As I see, spacecraft Galileo found *NO* >>evidence for the existence of intelligent life on the surface of Earth). >Wrong. I read it in a newspaper that Galileo found *NO* evidence ... Since Ken complains, I ask the space audience: * Did Galileo find evidence for the existence of intelligent life on the surface of Earth during its fly-by ? (I could imagine city lights at night, or Chinese wall...) -- Hartmut Frommert, LS Dehnen, Physics, | E-Mail: Univ of Constance, P.O.Box 55 60, | or D-W-7750 Constance, Germany | + SAVE THE WHALES ! BOYCOTT NORWAY ! + Phone: +49-(0)7531-88-3747 | + Whales R intelligent. Whale killers not. + + Whale killing is murder. Eating whales is cannibalism. Eat whale killers. + ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jul 92 15:24:17 GMT From: Pieter Kallemeyn Subject: Galileo Update - 07/20/92 Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1992Jul20.230933.2346@cco.caltech.edu> kwp@wag.caltech.edu (Kevin W. Plaxco) writes: >In article <1992Jul20.193308.16649@news.arc.nasa.gov> baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov writes: > >> Tomorrow, the turn to the warming attitude in preparation for the Dual >>Drive Actuator (DDA) pulse is scheduled to begin at approximately 10:57PDT. >>The first of the two Dual Drive Actuator pulses is scheduled at 12:46 PDT for >>approximately a 2 second duration. Tracking is scheduled over DSS-43. > >This, I presume, represents an attempt to free the HGA by using the LGA-2 >deployment motor to shake the S/C. Presuming this is correct: How many >pulses can be generated in 2 seconds? Is this just a test of the pulse >proceedure, and therefore limited to one stow/deployment cycle? And >why is this being done at the warming attitude since the HGA is less tightly >stuck when cold? > >-Kevin The warming turn is for the benifit of the DDA motor itself, which works better at higher temperatures. As for the number of pulses, there will be only one on/off cycle for this 2-second duration test. Another 2-second on/off cycle is planned a few days later after the DDA motors have had a chance to warm. -- Pieter Kallemeyn | phk@aristotle.jpl.nasa.gov Jet Propulsion Laboratory | - or - California Institute of Technology | phk@cabrilho.jpl.nasa.gov ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 15:18:36 GMT From: Hartmut Frommert Subject: Looking gif horse in mouth Newsgroups: sci.space tffreeba@indyvax.iupui.edu writes: [paraphrased:] How to get NASA GIF's on floppies ? Best you ftp them from ames.arc.nasa.gov user: anonymous (or ftp) pass: cd /pub/SPACE/GIF to get them on your comp, from that you can copy to your floppy. Hope this helps. Hartmut Frommert, LS Dehnen, Physics, | E-Mail: Univ of Constance, P.O.Box 55 60, | or D-W-7750 Constance, Germany | + SAVE THE WHALES ! BOYCOTT NORWAY ! + Phone: +49-(0)7531-88-3747 | + Whales R intelligent. Whale killers not. + + Whale killing is murder. Eating whales is cannibalism. Eat whale killers. + ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jul 92 13:50:10 GMT From: "Frank J. Nagy:VAX Wizard&Loose Cannon" Subject: Muon-catalyzed fusion Newsgroups: sci.space There was a question recently (I've lost the reference) as to what exactly is muon-catalyzed fusion. This effect has been observed directly (well, as directly as it can be) in liquid hydrogen (and liquid deuterium?) bubble chambers with stopping muons. A muon is basically a heavy electron (with same negative charge) and a stopping muon can replace the electron in a hydrogen atom. The resulting muonic atom is much smaller than the normal electronic atom since the muon is much more massive than the electon so its charge density envelope is much denser around the nucleus. This provides greater shielding of the positive charge of the nucleus allowing the muonic atom to slip within the electonic cloud of the other atom in the LH2/LD2 molecule (for instance). In fact, the muon does such a good job of neutralizing the positive charge of the nucleus that the two nuclei get close enough together for there to be a significant chance for them to undergo a nuclear interact - ergo, fusion. = Dr. Frank J. Nagy "VAX Guru & Wizard, Loose Cannon" {{Group Leader!}} = Fermilab Computing Division/Distributed Computing Dept/Special Projects Grp = HEPnet/SPAN: FNDCD::NAGY (43123::NAGY) or FNAL::NAGY (43009::NAGY) = Internet: NAGY@FNAL.FNAL.GOV = BitNet: NAGY@FNAL = USnail: Fermilab POB 500 MS/234 Batavia, IL 60510 ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jul 92 13:40:16 GMT From: Rodney Sparapani Subject: Need Testers for MS Windows Astronomy Program Newsgroups: comp.windows.ms,comp.windows.ms.programmer,sci.astro,sci.space,sci.edu,comp.ibm.pc.misc I know that I shouldn't post this to the list, but that mailer is OOO. I would like to beta test astro lab. Rodney Sparapani 5027 W. National Ave., #205 West Milwaukee, WI 53214 rodney@hp01.biostat.mcw.edu CPU: Intel 486/33 with math coprocessor MEM: 4M Graphics: SVGA with 1M card Printer: Panasonic 1124 DOS: MS-5.00 Windows: 3.1 -- DISCLAIMER: If you think this disclaimer is offensive, illegal, immoral, or otherwise politically incorrect, then I guess you shouldn't have read it. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jul 92 12:01:32 GMT From: Gary Coffman Subject: No markets in space? (was Re: Chemical unit operations in space) Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1992Jul19.075544.29047@techbook.com> szabo@techbook.com (Nick Szabo) writes: >In article <1992Jul15.175830.1@fnalc.fnal.gov> higgins@fnalc.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey) writes: > >>It's also true that no large increase in astronautical activity will >>occur unless transportation from Earth decreases considerably. >>As this happens, the penalty for bringing equipment or raw materials from >>Earth will be lower. > >An otherwise fine post, but this statement is a popular misconception. >The economics of space activity depend on both cost/lb. of transportation >and value/lb. of the goods transported (eg comsats). Value/lb. (eg >telephone circuits) has been increasing at a rate several orders of >magnitude higher than the decrease in cost/lb. If that trend continues >or accelerates, we will be processing materials in space long before >launch cost/lb. comes down significantly. > >Of course, those who insist on thinking _only_ in terms of cost/lb. >will flame me for daring to project a trend. The flame is for *mis*interpreting a trend. Leaving aside the fact that there is excess transponder capacity currently in orbit, and the fact that services are moving back to terrestrial fiber links, the key reason communications satellites have been successful is that their cost per pound has been *ZERO* for their product. Information is massless. Using comsats to project space industrialization trends is bogus because the product of space industrialization is not massless. The cost per pound of launching radio waves into space is infinitely small, though the one time capital cost of the equipment to do so is not. Gary ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 10:02:03 GMT From: Stefan Hartmann Subject: Phobos2-probe UFO pic-pro and contra Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Hi, I just have posted the mysterious phobos2-probe UFO-pic as a GIF-pic called phobufo.gif in the newsgroup: alt.binaries.pictures.misc I was asked in private email to do so, cause many people don't yet have any JPEG viewers ! Okay, but now the Pro and Contra: I enclose here to emails, which say it is only a particle hit or a CCD-chip error. Can anybody verify this ? Here comes the email I received: Date: Mon, 20 Jul 92 18:25:33 HST From: deane@mozart.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Kimo Kanaka De'ane) Message-Id: <9207210425.AA27631@mozart.IFA.Hawaii.EDU> To: leo@zelator.in-berlin.de Subject: Re: phobufo.jpg, part 1/1 Phobos2-probe-UFO-pic Newsgroups: alt.binaries.pictures.erotica In-Reply-To: <7894THM@zelator.in-berlin.de> Organization: Institute for Astronomy, Hawaii Cc: Status: RO Aloha. As an infrared astronomer, I am certain that the streak in this picture is a bad column from the infrared array. Those chips are notorious for having rows of dead pixels. I saw shapes like this one on both the array at the University of Wyoming IR Observatory and here at UH, though ours is a cutting-edge device, and has slightly better cosmetics. I put no faith whatsoever in the UFO idea. Again, I've used these devices extensively, and my job is determining what kind of structure one can believable extract from imaging electronics. This is just an instrumental flaw. N.B. CCDs are used in the Optical bandpass, roughly the same light visible with the eye. IR-arrays are the same *basic* structure, with important differences in detail, and are about 5-8 years behind CCDs in terms of size and performance. It's a hard waveband to work in, but one chock full of scientific merit. Clear skies, Kimo Date: Mon, 20 Jul 92 19:13:32 EDT From: tarl@apache.sw.stratus.com (Tarl Neustaedter) Message-Id: <9207202313.AA15439@apache.sw.stratus.com> To: leo@zelator.in-berlin.de In-Reply-To: Stefan Hartmann's message of Mon, 20 Jul 92 12:32:43 MEST Subject: phobufo.jpg, part 1/1 Phobos2-probe-UFO-pic Status: RO > Hmm, > interesting idea, but tell me, won't there be visible only a little > white pixel and not this long big line ? If you happen to get a charged particle hitting the edge of the detector parallel to the plane, it will travel through a number of cells, triggering them. Under some conditions, the cascade of secondary particles can make the line much wider than a single pixel. > What about all the other photos that were taken ? Why are over there > no white lines or spots ? The effect is temporary, so you won't get the same damage in all images. If you question is why none of the other pictures show any damage, there are two answers: a) Do you have all of the raw data for all the images? Knowing how glavkosmos works (even post-perestroika), you don't. It's common practice to process images removing defects before you release them, and to simply discard images that are too badly damaged. b) Have you heard of the term "random"? > Would a CCD chip camera for space mission not made safe for this > charged particle hits ? If not, You would see every time only white > spots ! No. a) It takes miles of insulation to defend against relativistic charged particles. There is no way to make a CCD "safe" against cosmic rays. b) They aren't common enough to zap all your images. Most images won't have any cosmic ray hits, and those that do will probably be at a sharper angle than this, and thus a smaller hit. c) My comment about cosmic rays was simply one of the defects that could be the cause; I'd have to have the raw data and specifications on the imaging and transmission hardware before I could comment on the likely candidates. I've observed this discussion before, and I don't care to carry it on. It is the provenance of conspiracy theorists and ufo true-believers, not anyone who has ever worked with CCDs or space equipment. The only reason I commented is because after posting it to sci.astro, you posted it to an erotica group, which was inappropriate. > Rethink about it ! Give me a break. Tarl So, what do You all say about this ? Best regards Stefan Hartmann. email to: leo@zelator.in-berlin.de -- ************************************************************* * Stefan Hartmann This is how to contact me: * * EMAIL: leo@zelator.in-berlin.de * * Phone : ++ 49 30 344 23 66 FAX : ++ 49 30 344 92 79 * ************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 15:44:39 GMT From: Ithlial the Archer Subject: Phobos2-probe UFO pic-pro and contra Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Everything stated in the original post is a common occurence even in ground based CCDs. Especially the cosmic ray hits, which become quite frequent on long esposures, like those used for extragalactic objects. On observing runs I've been on I've seen CR hits so energetic they saturate an entire column and possibly an adjacent one and leave residual charge on subsequent read-outs of the chip (somewhat like an after image that people get when they look at something very bright.) Our method of dealing with cosmic ray hits is to take at least three short exposures in place of the one long one and then median them. This works quite well since even small chips are 512 by 512 (columns by pixels) so the chance of having even the same column hit is very small especially if you make your exposure time shorter. On the one of the chips at our observatory (Capilla Peak, in the Manzanos mtns in NM) we saw what we thought to be a comet. We searched for the object on subsequent nights, since we need at least 3 observations to really nail down the orbit et cetera. We could not locate the object. Then the 'object' appeared again at a far removed point in the sky. A quick back of the envelope calculation show that if the 'comet' was even at a very close range then its velocity was an order of magnitude above solar system escape velicity and few times above galactic escape velocity. The culprit was a fairly large defect on the chip. I think this story serves to show that defects and CR hits can produce a wide variety of effects on CCDs. We could have just as easily said that the effect was and exhaust plume of a spaceship, but when we found out chip was acting silly the end result was the same: we gotta buy a new chip. See ya, Ithlial My opinions, mine, mine, mine! To me, boxing is like ballet, except there's no music, no choreography, and the dancers hit eachother. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 15:31:14 GMT From: Tom Rataski Subject: Testers for Astronomy Lab: NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS!!! Newsgroups: comp.windows.ms,comp.windows.ms.programmer,comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc,sci.astro,sci.space,sci.edu In article <1992Jul21.004739.22910@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, ebergman@nyx.cs.du.edu (Eric Bergman-Terrell) writes: ************************************************************************* * Sorry about the unreliable e-mail address. I have a new one that * * should work: uunet!edoc9!erict * ************************************************************************* Sorry for posting this... The new address also bounces with user unknown. Name: Tom Rataski US Mail Address: 495 Winfield Way, Akron, Ohio 44303 E-Mail Address: rataski@akronb.aoo.dec.com Version of MS-Windows: V3.1 Version of MS-DOS: V5.0 CPU: 80486/25 Math Coprocessor (not required): Memory: 8mb Graphics Card: SVGA Printer: various... dot matrix to ps -- Tom Rataski rataski@akronb.aoo.dec.com Digital Equipment Corporation 3500 Massillon Rd. Suite 100 twisted pair: (216) 896-6135 Uniontown, Ohio 44685 USA <----<<< Uniontown = Akron/Canton, Ohio "I have problems enough speaking for myself let alone my employer" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 17:09:22 EST From: PHARABOD@FRCPN11.IN2P3.FR Subject: U.S. Black Programs Since last January, I try to get more information about a strange aircraft (probably an airship) which has been seen near U.S. Air Force bases in California and/or Nevada. The point is that this craft looks like the "UFO(s)" which thousands Belgian (and a few Dutch) citizens claim to have seen since November 1989. The description of this U.S. secret craft can be found in Popular Mechanics (not an UFO review!), December 1991, in the article "America's New Secret Aircraft": ''[...] The big wing. Meanwhile, several Antelope Valley residents say they've seen a craft that simply strains credulity. According to reports over the past two years, a vast black flying wing, estimated at between 600 and 800 ft. in width, has passed silently over city streets, empty desert and rural freeways. The craft moved so slowly one observer said he could jog along with it. A pattern of seemingly random white lights on the vehicle's black underside provided "constellation camouflage" against the starry sky. Observers who followed the craft long enough detailed unlikely maneuvers in which the vehicle stopped, rotated in place and hovered vertically, presenting a thin trailing edge to the ground. Although such sightings encourage those who link the military with unearthly technology, a mammoth, quiet flying wing may have a conventional explanation: It could be a lighter-than-air craft pushed by slow-turning propellers. Certainly, such a vehicle could elude Doppler radar by slowing to a crawl. Alternatively, the fact that the craft holds station vertically suggests that it might serve as a huge reflector for a bistatic radar system. Other possible missions include troop delivery or covert surveillance. [...]'' I could not find any information about this aircraft in Aviation Week & Space Technology, nor in Aerospace America. Has anybody on this list more precise information about this aircraft-which-looks-like-an-UFO ? If no, on what list may I find something ? J. Pharabod ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 14:57:28 GMT From: Hartmut Frommert Subject: Whale killing for "science" -- so for what? Newsgroups: sci.space A side remark on sci.space, as the discussion swept over from sci.misc: (Prof. Carl Sagan said similar things in COSMOS) I assume that many of the readers here are deeply interested in SETI, extra-terrestrial life (in particular, intelligent), etc.. How can one hope that there may be *any* useful (and peaceful) contact with ETI's if we are not even able to peaceful co-existence with the other TI's (the whales) ? Please, no flames here. The discussion should stay on sci.misc. -- Hartmut Frommert, LS Dehnen, Physics, | E-Mail: Univ of Constance, P.O.Box 55 60, | or D-W-7750 Constance, Germany | + SAVE THE WHALES ! BOYCOTT NORWAY ! + Phone: +49-(0)7531-88-3747 | + Whales R intelligent. Whale killers not. + + Whale killing is murder. Eating whales is cannibalism. Eat whale killers. + ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 14:50:39 GMT From: Hartmut Frommert Subject: Whale killing for "science" -- so for what? Newsgroups: sci.misc,sci.space arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes: >In article phfrom@nyx.uni-konstanz.de (Hartmut Frommert) writes: >>Contributions to these magazines are usually written by serious scientists. >>So having a language, well-developed social behavior, etc. are not >>manifestations of intelligence. >Communicating with one another is not a language, and reacting to the actions >of one another is not "social behavior" in the sense that humans have social >behavior. Otherwise, computers and ants are intelligent. Please, leave this discussion on sci.misc for the future. As a response to your statement I mention that I only listed few examples for the manifestation of the intelligence of whales. As was stated on sci.misc in the meantime, even the weight ratio brain/body is similar to human (!) for dolphins and orcas. FYI: The language of whales is based on sound (I think infra sound) and in the case of dolphins sufficiently developed so that they can communicate even without sight contact, and over larger distances. Covering the eyes of one dolphin and giving optical signals to a second is communicated to the first so that s/hecan react appropriately. Also think of the "songs of the whales" -- some people compare it to culture/art. Everybody who wants may read one of the books on the social behavior of whales, so that I don't give details here. [remark on Galileo deleted] Hope this clears some facts. -- Hartmut Frommert, LS Dehnen, Physics, | E-Mail: Univ of Constance, P.O.Box 55 60, | or D-W-7750 Constance, Germany | + SAVE THE WHALES ! BOYCOTT NORWAY ! + Phone: +49-(0)7531-88-3747 | + Whales R intelligent. Whale killers not. + + Whale killing is murder. Eating whales is cannibalism. Eat whale killers. + ------------------------------ End of Space Digest Volume 15 : Issue 021 ------------------------------