Return-path: X-Andrew-Authenticated-as: 7997;andrew.cmu.edu;Ted Anderson Received: from hogtown.andrew.cmu.edu via trymail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl@andrew.cmu.edu (->+dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl) (->ota+space.digests) ID ; Wed, 26 Jun 91 01:26:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Precedence: junk Reply-To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU From: space-request+@Andrew.CMU.EDU To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU Date: Wed, 26 Jun 91 01:26:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SPACE Digest V13 #711 SPACE Digest Volume 13 : Issue 711 Today's Topics: SPACE Digest V13 #615 NASA Prediction Bulletins, Part 2 Re: orbiter production Space heros? Administrivia: Submissions to the SPACE Digest/sci.space should be mailed to space+@andrew.cmu.edu. Other mail, esp. [un]subscription requests, should be sent to space-request+@andrew.cmu.edu, or, if urgent, to tm2b+@andrew.cmu.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ReSent-Message-ID: Resent-Date: Fri, 07 Jun 91 19:13:19 EDT Resent-From: Tom McWilliams <18084TM@msu.edu> Resent-To: space+@andrew.cmu.edu Date: Fri, 7 Jun 91 04:34:12 EDT Reply-To: space+%ANDREW.CMU.EDU@msu.edu From: space-request+%ANDREW.CMU.EDU%CARNEGIE.BITNET@msu.edu Subject: SPACE Digest V13 #615 Comments: To: space+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU To: david polito <15432DJP@MSU.BITNET>, Tom McWilliams <18084TM@MSU.BITNET> Subject: Re: Building Infrastructure >> When was the last time somebody did a marketing survey and revenue/cost >> statement for a space station? >Or a Jupiter probe, Venus mapper ...? Wasn't one of the space stations purposes (long, long ago, in an ad far, far..) to do science. For hire? I.e. it would have customers? I guess voyager, et. al. could have customers. I can see it now.... "We got great color pictures of Jupiters moons. We got Europa, We got Ganymeade. Do I hear 10 million? Gimme 10.5? Sold, to the AAS. Now on the stand, we got spectral analysis, freeze-frame photos, and orbital elements. all suitable for framing, selling to USA Today, or calculating wind velocities and atmosphere composition...." Seriously, how much would the various institutions be willing to pay for this kind of data? They could surely split the cost to make it affordable to all of them. Speaking as one customer (taxpayer) for both these projects, I'd say dollar for dollar, FED bombed (is bombing?) and Voyager, Magellan, etc. have shined. I say, let's put the $$ into the proven projects and USEFUL pipe-dreams. I mean, if you insist that we will go into space, what is FED going to be? Let's build a moon-base! Now that's something you can sell. Raw materials, stable platform, built-in 25 hour clock, radio-free zones, solar energy in big chunks, etc. Besides, look what NASA did with their last station (which BTW, was better than waht I understand FED would have been as it's plans last stood). Why don't YOU do a market survey. I bet you'll find FED has few actual 'customers', which in a market survey means "yer outta here!" Tom Acknowledge-To: <18084TM@MSU> ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jun 91 00:57:41 GMT From: udecc.engr.udayton.edu!blackbird.afit.af.mil!tkelso@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (TS Kelso) Subject: NASA Prediction Bulletins, Part 2 The most current orbital elements from the NASA Prediction Bulletins are carried on the Celestial BBS, (513) 427-0674, and are updated several times weekly. Documentation and tracking software are also available on this system. As a service to the satellite user community, the most current of these elements are uploaded weekly to sci.space. This week's elements are provided below. The Celestial BBS may be accessed 24 hours/day at 300, 1200, or 2400 baud using 8 data bits, 1 stop bit, no parity. - Current NASA Prediction Bulletins #853b - COBE 1 20322U 89 89 A 91154.52462071 .00000414 00000-0 28926-3 0 3353 2 20322 99.0235 166.5632 0009127 110.2931 249.9258 14.03092732 78751 Kvant-2 1 20335U 89 93 A 91156.85312015 .00037459 00000-0 33845-3 0 7159 2 20335 51.6045 344.5104 0004547 287.6848 72.4495 15.67723257 87056 GPS BII-05 1 20361U 89 97 A 91135.16341753 .00000012 00000-0 99999-4 0 1718 2 20361 55.0542 127.1787 0062480 62.5659 298.0823 2.00558286 1000 SPOT 2 1 20436U 90 5 A 91156.75072227 .00000485 00000-0 24628-3 0 5968 2 20436 98.7408 231.1836 0001068 87.4403 272.6895 14.20034210 70922 UO-14 1 20437U 90 5 B 91152.25989879 .00000460 00000-0 19705-3 0 3893 2 20437 98.6690 231.8120 0010728 211.8009 148.2522 14.29129336 70711 UO-15 1 20438U 90 5 C 91152.15276180 .00000263 00000-0 12052-3 0 2828 2 20438 98.6686 231.5882 0009756 210.5725 149.4889 14.28706056 70683 PACSAT 1 20439U 90 5 D 91156.07639384 .00000462 00000-0 19772-3 0 2886 2 20439 98.6717 235.9304 0010378 199.8883 160.1901 14.29219412 71268 DO-17 1 20440U 90 5 E 91155.21733230 .00000497 00000-0 21084-3 0 2885 2 20440 98.6727 235.1220 0010363 202.9611 157.1113 14.29303348 71149 WO-18 1 20441U 90 5 F 91153.50773890 .00000437 00000-0 18750-3 0 2848 2 20441 98.6716 233.4697 0011164 207.2924 152.7671 14.29345961 70902 LO-19 1 20442U 90 5 G 91154.18294477 .00000451 00000-0 19283-3 0 2852 2 20442 98.6710 234.1976 0011588 203.3718 156.6946 14.29423675 71002 GPS BII-06 1 20452U 90008 A 91104.64828609 -.00000008 00000-0 00000 0 0 01549 2 20452 054.3878 243.7085 0043963 051.6051 308.8222 02.00557816008908 MOS-1B 1 20478U 90 13 A 91155.22834410 .00000234 00000-0 19973-3 0 5862 2 20478 99.1531 228.2181 0001258 88.0332 272.0961 13.94868010 67218 DEBUT 1 20479U 90 13 B 91153.41171881 .00000046 00000-0 15372-3 0 2348 2 20479 99.0256 138.3780 0541024 335.1327 22.4534 12.83202027 61661 FO-20 1 20480U 90 13 C 91153.40775975 .00000016 00000-0 65599-4 0 2291 2 20480 99.0236 138.3695 0540961 335.0660 22.5150 12.83181899 61662 MOS-1B R/B 1 20491U 90 13 D 91156.01537199 -.00000408 00000-0 -74564-3 0 2970 2 20491 99.0193 153.9452 0469672 284.2200 70.7178 13.02834400 62340 LACE 1 20496U 90 15 A 91149.52738961 .00007890 00000-0 39912-3 0 5606 2 20496 43.1080 212.0590 0019505 10.5143 349.6112 15.17224970 71071 RME 1 20497U 90 15 B 91157.07073779 .00023889 00000-0 42154-3 0 6165 2 20497 43.1056 59.2990 0018911 170.9407 189.1962 15.49731406 73450 Nadezhda 2 1 20508U 90 17 A 91156.45750389 .00000107 00000-0 10382-3 0 3400 2 20508 82.9539 159.4221 0046284 83.0168 277.6259 13.73316726 63496 OKEAN 2 1 20510U 90 18 A 91156.88691925 .00001648 00000-0 24136-3 0 5596 2 20510 82.5322 131.6103 0017619 200.2452 159.8104 14.75009670 68175 INTELSAT-6 1 20523U 90 21 A 91149.22539633 .00000174 00000-0 59928-5 0 5256 2 20523 28.3339 154.2222 0014368 288.7196 68.9287 15.03845469 66561 GPS BII-07 1 20533U 90 25 A 91147.93369956 -.00000034 00000-0 99999-4 0 2238 2 20533 55.1978 2.0253 0036432 96.2620 264.2006 2.00569523 8533 PegSat 1 20546U 90 28 A 91156.62611594 .00014033 00000-0 69547-3 0 5487 2 20546 94.1351 44.4472 0131002 132.5329 228.7142 15.10433335 63226 HST 1 20580U 91156.35380081 .00003605 00000-0 37060-3 0 4746 2 20580 28.4830 157.9943 0003644 188.4119 171.6417 14.87798951 60551 Glonass 44 1 20619U 90 45 A 91156.04831035 -.00000019 00000-0 99999-4 0 5291 2 20619 65.0837 26.8317 0021576 213.7638 146.1640 2.13103109 8142 Glonass 45 1 20620U 90 45 B 91156.16614948 -.00000019 00000-0 99999-4 0 5748 2 20620 65.0800 26.8288 0008904 35.8240 324.2913 2.13103191 8157 Glonass 46 1 20621U 90 45 C 91156.22518173 -.00000019 00000-0 99999-4 0 4827 2 20621 65.1022 26.8366 0011650 201.3042 158.7048 2.13102517 8154 Kristall 1 20635U 90 48 A 91156.85309407 .00066691 00000-0 59570-3 0 5156 2 20635 51.6085 344.5069 0004888 283.6428 76.3487 15.67753294 57933 ROSAT 1 20638U 90 49 A 91156.40296430 .00003986 00000-0 32875-3 0 3090 2 20638 52.9874 280.0446 0011690 317.4392 42.5766 15.01082481 55264 Meteor 2-19 1 20670U 90 57 A 91156.55795511 .00000174 00000-0 14662-3 0 2409 2 20670 82.5481 8.1521 0016997 20.7198 339.4644 13.83977040 47399 CRRES 1 20712U 90 65 A 91154.80487941 .00001059 00000-0 16560-2 0 3149 2 20712 17.8268 277.1341 7104040 81.0845 346.7772 2.44379048 7658 GPS BII-08 1 20724U 90 68 A 91154.26292404 .00000016 00000-0 99999-4 0 1243 2 20724 54.6942 182.2556 0095690 126.9076 234.0312 2.00563658 6080 Feng Yun1-2 1 20788U 90 81 A 91147.58322625 .00000231 00000-0 17656-3 0 1949 2 20788 98.9473 181.5486 0014391 235.4251 124.5557 14.01156921 37324 Meteor 2-20 1 20826U 90 86 A 91156.86056920 .00000124 00000-0 10300-3 0 1906 2 20826 82.5245 306.8974 0012038 275.0780 84.9007 13.83347854 34647 GPS BII-09 1 20830U 90 88 A 91146.81860108 .00000012 00000-0 99999-4 0 1243 2 20830 54.9505 124.9113 0072534 115.1515 245.5787 2.00569966 5011 GPS BII-10 1 20959U 90103 A 91155.20391563 .00000016 00000-0 99999-4 0 793 2 20959 54.9179 183.8586 0048718 215.9421 143.8064 2.00567362 3777 DMSP B5D2-5 1 20978U 90105 A 91156.88092571 .00001024 00000-0 39207-3 0 2100 2 20978 98.8369 193.4904 0080926 172.1712 188.0760 14.30999353 26630 Glonass 47 1 21006U 90110 A 91156.26389211 .00000019 00000-0 99999-4 0 2143 2 21006 64.8378 146.4470 0061530 187.8421 172.0597 2.13102041 3838 Glonass 48 1 21007U 90110 B 91156.44110827 .00000019 00000-0 99999-4 0 2251 2 21007 64.8580 146.4751 0038840 182.4264 177.5578 2.13100395 3839 Glonass 49 1 21008U 90110 C 91156.32396451 .00000020 00000-0 99999-4 0 2137 2 21008 64.8361 146.4758 0011026 292.2564 67.6143 2.13100554 3838 INFORMTR-1 1 21087U 91 6 A 91156.67127897 .00000115 00000-0 11039-3 0 886 2 21087 82.9412 242.2392 0034471 293.0816 66.6714 13.74385480 17447 Cosmos 2123 1 21089U 91 7 A 91156.91590099 .00000118 00000-0 11402-3 0 881 2 21089 82.9234 112.4644 0028825 314.2933 45.5857 13.73901556 16597 MOP-2 1 21140U 91 15 B 91144.33757974 -.00000018 00000-0 99999-4 0 741 2 21140 1.0365 299.2916 0006162 150.9349 269.8789 1.00204278 620 Nadezhda 3 1 21152U 91 19 A 91155.80167007 .00000006 00000-0 00000 0 0 975 2 21152 82.9428 68.1068 0043567 60.1676 300.3819 13.73346112 11531 Almaz-1 1 21213U 91 24 A 91156.71989413 .00233121 24061-4 44821-3 0 1510 2 21213 72.7002 292.9004 0011578 253.3347 106.6954 16.00223146 10584 Cosmos 2139 1 21216U 91 25 A 91156.75245758 -.00000019 00000-0 99999-4 0 1211 2 21216 64.8264 26.9309 0006563 223.4260 136.5877 2.13103095 1341 Cosmos 2140 1 21217U 91 25 B 91155.87259937 -.00000019 00000-0 99999-4 0 1184 2 21217 64.8192 26.9749 0008945 242.6546 117.3162 2.13102884 1323 Cosmos 2141 1 21218U 91 25 C 91155.99017418 -.00000019 00000-0 99999-4 0 1195 2 21218 64.8149 26.9593 0007173 318.9444 41.0577 2.13102938 1322 GRO 1 21225U 91 27 B 91157.05259535 .00014341 00000-0 33922-3 0 1041 2 21225 28.4700 173.3659 0009606 243.3771 116.6029 15.40140082 9488 Meteor 3-4 1 21232U 91 30 A 91156.62942512 .00000005 00000-0 00000 0 0 272 2 21232 82.5466 232.6734 0018119 81.9337 278.3845 13.15984370 5600 NOAA 12 1 21263U 91 32 A 91140.76038009 -.00000029 00000-0 -48199-5 0 155 2 21263 98.7352 170.3864 0012304 244.5373 115.4525 14.21383733 869 1991 032B 1 21267U 91 32 B 91155.04663569 .00007335 00000-0 33468-2 0 202 2 21267 98.7400 184.5268 0006353 183.2894 176.8249 14.21785643 2891 1991 032C 1 21298U 91 43 C 91157.08842306 .00007088 00000-0 32371-2 0 153 2 21298 98.7386 186.5464 0006313 177.4056 182.7204 14.21750898 3183 Cosmos 2143 1 21299U 91 33 A 91156.68367829 .00000022 00000-0 99999-4 0 174 2 21299 82.5734 213.5404 0010234 329.6882 30.3614 12.63608772 2507 Cosmos 2144 1 21300U 91 33 B 91156.62849831 .00000022 00000-0 99999-4 0 102 2 21300 82.5772 213.6188 0002006 342.3117 17.7904 12.62069444 2487 Cosmos 2145 1 21301U 91 33 C 91156.61651134 .00000022 00000-0 99999-4 0 121 2 21301 82.5681 213.5885 0006049 335.3907 24.6923 12.62838074 2481 Cosmos 2146 1 21302U 91 33 D 91156.67349586 .00000023 00000-0 99999-4 0 124 2 21302 82.5753 213.5343 0013584 338.5207 21.5314 12.64261587 2493 Cosmos 2147 1 21303U 91 33 E 91156.66457027 .00000023 00000-0 99999-4 0 102 2 21303 82.5658 213.5074 0016595 335.8645 24.1668 12.64833335 2497 Cosmos 2148 1 21304U 91 33 F 91156.65220625 .00000023 00000-0 99999-4 0 104 2 21304 82.5730 213.5111 0020845 332.2652 27.7327 12.65626462 2496 1991 033G 1 21305U 91 33 G 91137.52675849 .00000004 00000-0 00000 0 0 22 2 21305 82.5664 225.7962 0036908 206.0312 153.8935 12.54722500 76 Soyuz TM-12 1 21311U 91 34 A 91156.78936343 .00052146 00000-0 46819-3 0 248 2 21311 51.6073 344.8340 0005230 276.0921 83.9659 15.67726383 2870 RESURS F-10 1 21313U 90 35 A 91157.09011746 .00261149 34428-4 19706-3 0 319 2 21313 82.3098 21.4212 0004010 91.8492 268.2247 16.15237544 2542 Cosmos 2149 1 21315U 91 36 A 91156.74346352 .00894147 27958-4 44390-3 0 360 2 21315 67.1325 60.1825 0115544 59.2887 302.2031 16.06716083 1942 1991 037A 1 21392U 91 37 A 91153.81699862 .00000003 00000-0 99999-4 0 101 2 21392 0.1619 229.2109 0102324 357.8062 132.1346 1.02831108 20 1991 037B 1 21393U 91 37 B 91153.63024844 .00012511 00000-0 14280-2 0 86 2 21393 24.9907 34.6931 1259342 95.7510 278.7554 12.71277397 486 1991 038A 1 21395U 91 38 A 91156.78935993 .00054652 00000-0 49005-3 0 147 2 21395 51.6083 344.8319 0006245 277.1839 82.8606 15.67731128 1025 1991 038B 1 21396U 91 38 B 91151.55223978 .12996256 60527-4 27664-3 0 128 2 21396 51.6425 11.4476 0017639 81.7979 279.5791 16.45063366 208 1991 039A 1 21397U 91 39 A 91156.28037710 .00028305 00000-0 43202-2 0 53 2 21397 82.5277 40.7492 0022266 267.9165 91.8803 14.73533224 143 1991 039B 1 21398U 91 39 B 91156.75547554 -.00002814 00000-0 -43094-3 0 80 2 21398 82.5271 40.3126 0022253 267.8306 92.0347 14.73802492 210 STS 40 1 21399U 91 40 A 91158.22557870 .00106961 00000-0 25599-3 0 85 2 21399 39.0070 322.2320 0013304 4.9358 248.6192 15.95228336 263 -- Dr TS Kelso Assistant Professor of Space Operations tkelso@blackbird.afit.af.mil Air Force Institute of Technology ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jun 91 01:35:51 GMT From: cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi!caen!ox.com!hela!aws@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Allen W. Sherzer) Subject: Re: orbiter production In article <53769@apple.Apple.COM> han@Apple.COM (Byron Han) writes: >Shuttle being able to launch people into orbit is certainly a very unique >capability when compared to Titan IV. Nope. Lots of people have gone up on Titans. Allen -- +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Allen W. Sherzer | DETROIT: Where the weak are killed and eaten. | | aws@iti.org | | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ X-Ns-Transport-Id: 0000AA00108B35522BF5 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1991 08:13:48 PDT From: Eric_Florack.Wbst311@xerox.com Subject: Space heros? In a message marked 21 may 91, Paul Callahan says: =-=-=-=-= I have no idea what Mr. Szabo has to say, but this line of argument bothers me. Certainly, I have no wish to trivialize the deaths of astronauts, but dying for a cause must be distinguished from successfully advancing it. For example, it is objectively clear that James Van Allen has done more to pave the way for space exploration than, say, Christa McAuliffe, even though the latter died in the line of duty. Certainly, the willingness to give up one's life for a cause proves a great deal about individual character, but this is not the issue at stake. The issue is the nuts and bolts behind space exploration. =-=-=-==- It would appear to me that both are missing a vital point, here. To obtain the public's support, and therefore, an easier time at obtaining public funding, at least a certain degree of the space exploration should be manned... even if the effectiveness of that exploration is somewhat lessened by bringing humans along for the ride. It's a lot easier to identify progress in space when we can say, as we did back during APOLLO, that we'd put men on the moon. Public excitement was never more 'up' about space exploration than during our manned moon shots. (And at no point was NASA's 'right stuff' reputation held higher by the public.) One of the reasons that NASA's reputation suffered so, the last few years is that the only thing that the public was able to indentify with was CHALENGER.... this dispite the fact that many other projects were going on at the time, all of which were reletivly successful, even by 'right stuff' standards. Being unmanned projects, they were harder to indentify with. As the public's identification with manned NASA projects goes, so goes the public's willingness to spend large amounts on space exploration. ... becuase, for better or worse, the public considers the unmanned shots to be 'along for the ride', and manned shots the priority. Because of this thinking, without mannede exploration, there would be precious little of the unmanned variety. WE have to remember, that public perception is what pays the bills. WHile the space educated among us add to that public perception we do not count as a majority, or even a large segmant of the public as a whole. So to add my two cents to this age old question of who contributes more, the dreamer or the doer. I suggest that both are equal parts to the whole... we wouldn't make it without one or the other. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V13 #711 *******************