Return-path: X-Andrew-Authenticated-as: 7997;andrew.cmu.edu;Ted Anderson Received: from hogtown.andrew.cmu.edu via trymail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl@andrew.cmu.edu (->+dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl) (->ota+space.digests) ID ; Tue, 25 Jun 91 01:59:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Precedence: junk Reply-To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU From: space-request+@Andrew.CMU.EDU To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU Date: Tue, 25 Jun 91 01:59:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SPACE Digest V13 #704 SPACE Digest Volume 13 : Issue 704 Today's Topics: Re: Why would I stick a face on Mars... Re: Beanstalk analysis reprise Re: The Space Station Nobody Wanted Re: NASA Budget Re: Democracy: Easy Come, Easy Go Sun Spot naked eye Re: NASA Budget NASA Prediction Bulletins: Space Shuttle Re: Microgravity? Administrivia: Submissions to the SPACE Digest/sci.space should be mailed to space+@andrew.cmu.edu. Other mail, esp. [un]subscription requests, should be sent to space-request+@andrew.cmu.edu, or, if urgent, to tm2b+@andrew.cmu.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Jun 91 00:56:47 GMT From: cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!revpk@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) Subject: Re: Why would I stick a face on Mars... markh@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Mark William Hopkins) writes: > In article <1991Jun4.185703.19747@swbatl.sbc.com> jburnes@swbatl.sbc.com (Jim > >...there is a special > >part of your brain that is dedicated to doing nothing but recognize > >faces. Anything that has 2 "eyes", 1 "mouth" and is round will > >be recognized as such. Really...if someone wanted to send us a > >message why didnt they just encode it in symbology like we did > >on voyager. > > Because we're much better at recognizing faces... > > What would you have? An objective scale of facialness constructed with > a probability metric assigned for natural formations, in order to prove > that this is worthy of attention? > > The point is: you've made no falsifiable assertion to this object's nature. > Merely saying it's random is irresponsible: you need to provided an objective > means by which one can determine this, such as what I've described above. > > In fact, I will bet you that ANY neural net successfully trained to distingui > a face from a non face out of a large and sufficiently complete corpus of tes > cases with more than 99% accuracy will, when applied to the photo of the > formation on Mars, classify that as a human face with more than 99% probabili > > There. I've just provided a falsifiable test. You haven't. > > As a general principle in my development of language independent software, > I make it a point to make the interface as non symbolic and visual as possibl > because humans are so much more adept at seeing images than reading (which > has to be trained in school even). > > If I wanted to communicate with aliens, even to tell them how to bootstrap > my language, I'd have to use imagery (assuming they process images too), > since it is the most error-tolerant and efficient means of communication > we have. > > In Hungary, foreign students are taught Hungarian from a text written complet > in Hungarian. The bootstrapping technique used is so efficient as to make th > nation the most adept in whole area second language accquisition. The first > few pages are virtually all images. > > As you yourself said, an image will attract attention much quicker than a > sequence of symbols. I may be mistaken in this, but are you making the case that the Face was placed there to be easily recognizable by another race? And that your work in software that relies on image recognition has given you enough insight into this matter? I agree with your statements about how people repsond to images and the like, but the 'falsifiable test' you propsed is certainly no proof that the Face on Mars was 'designed' to be a face. I agree with you that not only would most people recognize it as a face, but a computer analysis of the image would also classify it as a face. Everyone agrees that, in the famous photo, it does look like a face. But what I'd be testing for is this' if something looks like a face, does this mean that a face was designed into it? I think it would amke far more sense to provide subjects with a series of patterns, some of which have faces 'designed' into them, and others which are truly random... and ask people if they see any faces. I expect that one would find a high correlation among the random images of where 'faces' could be seen. If people are recognizing faces in verifiably random patterns, then our seeing a 'face' on Mars doesn't constitute proof for design. However, if I was mistaken in your position on the Face, the above is pretty much moot. ====================================================================== Brian Siano, aka [ "Mr. A. Hitler, the old Nazi thing, says [ Mickey's silly. Imagine that! Well, Mickey is Rev. Philosopher-King [ going to save Mr. A. Hitler from drowning or [ something some day. Just wait and see if he revpk@cellar.UUCP [ doesn't. Then won't Mr. A. Hitler be ashamed!" [ -- Walt Disney, 1933. ====================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 91 15:26:40 GMT From: agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!utzoo!kcarroll@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Kieran A. Carroll) Subject: Re: Beanstalk analysis reprise In article <43279@fmsrl7.UUCP> wreck@fmsrl7.UUCP (Ron Carter) writes: >I'm disappointed that you can't come up with better objections. >Much more to the point would be "Where are you going to get 15 >million metric tons of graphite whisker?" That's a much more >difficult question, because we don't know how to make the stuff >in quantity yet. I'm assuming that this will be done, soon, >because the market for high-strength fibers is large and >growing, and the state of the art is progressing rapidly. I looked into this awhile ago, when my company was thinking of getting into space materials processing as part of Canada's space station user development program. As far as I could tell, there has been >no< significant progress in the art of growing graphite whiskers since (checking my files...) Roger Bacon of the National Carbon Research Laboratories (part of Union Carbide) developed his process in the late '50's. This technique involves "forming a direct current arc in an inert gas under a pressure in the vicinity of 90 atmospheres, which is 10 atm. above the triple point of graphite (using graphite electrodes -KAC). As the positive electrode is consumed, the vapor deposits on a lower block and builds up a boule several inches long. The whiskers are found imbedded in this boule and are extracted simply by breaking the boule open. A large crop of whiskers appears protruding from each broken surface. They have diameters ranging from about 0.5 to over 5 microns, and lengths up to 3 cm." (quote from Roger Bacon in one of his papers) This approach doesn't appear attractive as a starting-point for a large-scale production process. I spent some months looking into possible alternate techniques for making this whiskers (principlally as a reinforcing phase of a whisker/metal composite, by eutectic solidification under microgravity), with little success. I'd be >>extremely<< interested in any information on alternate graphite-whisker growth techniques that are known to any readers of this message. -- Kieran A. Carroll @ U of Toronto Aerospace Institute uunet!attcan!utzoo!kcarroll kcarroll@zoo.toronto.edu ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 91 22:57:58 GMT From: cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!helios.physics.utoronto.ca!ists!nereid!white@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (H. Peter White) Subject: Re: The Space Station Nobody Wanted Just wondering, has NASA or any of the partners say anything to the effect: These are the type of experiments that we wish to do over the next XXX days/months/years in the area of ???? science and/or engineering. Such things as the Hubble had a purpose and a time frame to work on that purpose. When the shuttle started, it had a definite purpose. In the area of the station, I heard more about how bad it would be for somethings, and nothing about what it would be good for other than a possible (but not probable) site for working on interplanetary vehicles, and a place to practise fixing space stations. So basically, was there ever a set mission or purpose to work towards in building Fred, or were there only the wishy washy possiblities? H. Peter White " Whoever undertakes to set himself white@nereid.sal.ists.ca up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge fs300367@yusol.bitnet is shipwrecked by the laughter of 665-5448 (SAL/ISTS) the Gods. " - Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 91 11:45:21 GMT From: agate!spool.mu.edu!caen!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!ptimtc!nntp-server.caltech.edu!iago.caltech.edu!carl@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Lydick, Carl) Subject: Re: NASA Budget In article <1991Jun6.014730.8610@mailer.cc.fsu.edu>, cain@geomag.gly.fsu.edu (Joe Cain) writes... >The American Geophysical Union recognizes that passage of this >amendment would do serious damage to future space science programs and >urge all to phone their congressional representatives and urge that >this amendment be defeated. Instead, they support the originally >passed budget of the Appropriations Committee. The time to have taken such action was when space station Freedom was first proposed or at least before we got commitments from foreign governments to work with the project. To renege on our commitment at this time could well endanger chances to have foreign governments participate in U.S.-directed research. I think we ought to go ahead with Fred, but learn from our mistake. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Carl J Lydick HEPnet/NSI: SOL1::CARL Internet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 91 16:33:58 GMT From: prism!ccoprmd@gatech.edu (Matthew DeLuca) Subject: Re: Democracy: Easy Come, Easy Go In article jim@pnet01.cts.com (Jim Bowery) writes: >When someone who is receiving tax dollars lobbies Congress to give them >more tax dollars, a positive feedback system is created that ultimately >undermines democracy itself. When they actually FLY INTO WASHINGTON, >hang out in hotels, take Congressmen/staffers out to dinner or whatever, >they should be thrown in jail. This doesn't make sense. Are you saying it should be illegal to talk to Congressmen outside of a formal panel hearing? Or that it should be illegal for a government organization to ask for a larger budget? >Since we appear unwilling to throw the rascals in jail as they should >be, the least we can do is provide free travel expenses to taxpaying >citizens with a countervailing point of view. Government is not some kind of a formalized debating society, as you seem to think it is. There is absolutely no obligation for the government to fly some random (exactly how do you determine who the lucky person is who gets to go to Washington, anyway?) person in to lobby. Lobbying isn't defined anywhere legally. If you want to lobby, fine, but you have to do it on your own money. NASA has to use its own money... >Democracy: Easy come, easy go. Yeah, yeah...everything's a threat to democracy. If you don't like something, go vote your congressman out of office and tell him why. Btw, I think this was posted last month...can we be a little more prompt? -- Matthew DeLuca Georgia Institute of Technology "I'd hire the Dorsai, if I knew their Office of Information Technology P.O. box." - Zebadiah Carter, Internet: ccoprmd@prism.gatech.edu _The Number of the Beast_ ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 91 16:51:19 GMT From: haven.umd.edu!wam.umd.edu!bunge@louie.udel.edu (Robert David Bunge) Subject: Sun Spot naked eye For all those who have bought filters to view the upcoming eclipse, you might notice that a large sunspot can currently be seen with the naked eye (and filter, of course). I'm guessing that is the region that is responiable for the recent (and upcoming?) auroral. Bob Bunge bunge@wam.umd.edu ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 91 23:25:00 GMT From: cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!isi.edu!cew@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Craig E. Ward) Subject: Re: NASA Budget In article <1991Jun6.014730.8610@mailer.cc.fsu.edu> cain@geomag.gly.fsu.edu (Joe Cain) writes: >The following information was received from my congressman's` >legislative correspondent this afternoon: > > SUMMARY OF MAJOR PROVISIONS OF THE CHAPMAN/LOWERY AMENDMENT >... > >The American Geophysical Union recognizes that passage of this >amendment would do serious damage to future space science programs and >urge all to phone their congressional representatives and urge that >this amendment be defeated. Instead, they support the originally >passed budget of the Appropriations Committee. With all due respect, the AGU is wrong and is playing the role of a patsy for non-space special interests. The remotely-manned space program will suffer greatly if the hands-on manned program suffers and, understand this clearly, if the current space station is killed, the manned program could be set back a generation. The budget agreement with the pro-space congressmen and the White House is that 20% of the NASA budget goes to remotely-manned programs. Does the AGU want 20% $15 billion or $13 billion? Be fully aware that, with a decline in the manned programs, the 20% slice will be remembered by the convenient memory of Bob Traxler and the programs the AGU seems to hold so dear will be next. This is the old "divide-and-conquer" tactic. With no manned program, where will the AGU look for allies in next year's budget war? Doesn't the AGU realize that alliances and coalitions are what keep tobacco price supports going year-to-year (and corn and sugar and...)? How long would the AGU stand if AARP decided its pet programs needed money from space projects? Not long. What of foreign aid for Israel? What of the budget for welfare bureaucrats? How many B-2s are really needed and where should those funds go? What of this-and-that military base? The lesson here is that there are lots of places to find funding and it takes coalitions to win. Get the picture? What the AGU is asking for is to have one of its natural political allies killed. Not smart. It's after 4 o'clock here on the west coast so the vote has probably already been won or lost. I don't know how the vote went but I do know that many, perhaps too many, space supporters think that because they have a certain expertise in a field of the sciences, they are equally expertise in the a field of the humanities. This gives the luddites and the earth-bound a great advantage. Sigh. -- Craig E. Ward Slogan: "nemo me impune lacessit" USPS: USC/Information Sciences Institute 4676 Admiralty Way, Suite 1200 Marina del Rey, CA 90292 ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 91 20:47:18 GMT From: udecc.engr.udayton.edu!blackbird.afit.af.mil!tkelso@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (TS Kelso) Subject: NASA Prediction Bulletins: Space Shuttle The most current orbital elements from the NASA Prediction Bulletins are carried on the Celestial BBS, (513) 427-0674, and are updated several times weekly. Documentation and tracking software are also available on this system. As a service to the satellite user community, the most current elements for the current shuttle mission are provided below. The Celestial BBS may be accessed 24 hours/day at 300, 1200, or 2400 baud using 8 data bits, 1 stop bit, no parity. STS 40 1 21399U 91 40 A 91156.82974537 .00104438 00000-0 25599-3 0 45 2 21399 39.0041 331.5023 0015220 350.4298 156.6830 15.94744764 56 -- Dr TS Kelso Assistant Professor of Space Operations tkelso@blackbird.afit.af.mil Air Force Institute of Technology ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 91 07:16:34 GMT From: fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!ROCKY@uunet.uu.net (John Richard Bruni) Subject: Re: Microgravity? >> A 710-meter shaft set deep into the Earth forms the centerpiece of a >> new microgravity experimentation facility which will open in July. >I must be missing something. How do we get microgravity at this depth? >The formula I recall would have the gravitational force there approximately > .9999 g. >Drop something down the hole? Of course. It is simple. A *BLACK* hole with sufficient mass to balance out the earth's gravity should be dropped into the hole at the proper point. ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V13 #704 *******************