Return-path: X-Andrew-Authenticated-as: 7997;andrew.cmu.edu;Ted Anderson Received: from hogtown.andrew.cmu.edu via trymail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl@andrew.cmu.edu (->+dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl) (->ota+space.digests) ID ; Sat, 15 Jun 91 01:28:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Precedence: junk Reply-To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU From: space-request+@Andrew.CMU.EDU To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU Date: Sat, 15 Jun 91 01:28:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SPACE Digest V13 #646 SPACE Digest Volume 13 : Issue 646 Today's Topics: Re: Extra Terrestrial Intelligence Re: Fred vs. Exploration: head-to-head competition Re: Pregnancy in space (was Re: Rational next station design process) Re: Moonbase movie *Plymouth* to air Sunday? SPACE Digest V13 #570 Re: Moonbase movie *Plymouth* to air Sunday? Re: lifeboats Re: USF: Brought to you by the same people who brought you the Moon Treaty? Administrivia: Submissions to the SPACE Digest/sci.space should be mailed to space+@andrew.cmu.edu. Other mail, esp. [un]subscription requests, should be sent to space-request+@andrew.cmu.edu, or, if urgent, to tm2b+@andrew.cmu.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 May 91 01:24:45 GMT From: usc!wuarchive!rex!rouge!dlbres10@ucsd.edu (Fraering Philip) Subject: Re: Extra Terrestrial Intelligence In article <1991May27.190658.18186@csun.edu> swalton@corona.csun.edu (Stephen Walton) writes: \...a nearby supernova. If we learned anything from SN 1987A, we learned /that there is essentially no outward warning that a star is about to \blow. Besides, unless your putative colony ships take terraforming /... Well, the combination of proximity given by interstellar travel and more advanced science will probably give the colony plenty of warning if the star is indeed about to blow up. -- Phil Fraering || Usenet (?):dlbres10@pc.usl.edu || YellNet: 318/365-5418 Standard disclaimer, whatever a disclaimer is, applies. ''It hardly mattered now; it was, in fact, a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.`` - Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, _The Mote in God's Eye_ ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 91 23:22:47 GMT From: convex!schumach@uunet.uu.net (Richard A. Schumacher) Subject: Re: Fred vs. Exploration: head-to-head competition The study of comets, their fragments, and earth-crossing meteoroids can be justified in the interest of national security, at the very least. I don't see any private groups, for-profit or not, rushing out to do this. How much makeup will Mr. Crary's wife be buying if the next Tunguska event occurs over their house? ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 91 21:55:53 GMT From: cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!bridge2!jarthur!nntp-server.caltech.edu!hamlet.caltech.edu!carl@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Lydick, Carl) Subject: Re: Pregnancy in space (was Re: Rational next station design process) In article <1991May28.163205.12863@linus.mitre.org>, sokay@cyclone.mitre.org (S. J. Okay) writes... >Just how much of a problem is this? I would think that given the the fetus is already >floating weightless inthe amniotic sac during its development, the absence of >gravity wouldn't be that much of a problem (but then, I'm no MD either). >Just curious, as I've seen this brought up here enough time to fire >my curiosity. The fetus is NOT floating "weightless". It is floating at neutral buoyancy. The two are VASTLY different. As an analogy, consider a cannister with a ball-bearing in it. Arrange the weight of the cannister so that it has neutral buoyancy in water. Then in neutral buoyancy, the ball bearing will always be at the bottom of the cannister. In a weightless environment, the ball bearing has no tendency to be at the bottom of the cannister. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Carl J Lydick HEPnet/NSI: SOL1::CARL Internet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 91 18:08:04 GMT From: ubc-cs!alberta!cpsc.ucalgary.ca!fsa!hermann@beaver.cs.washington.edu (hermann) Subject: Re: Moonbase movie *Plymouth* to air Sunday? more spoilers follow More technical problems: - an airlock door in the moonrover garage that consisted mostly of glass. There is no need to put glass in an airlock door, and it complicates the engineering enormously. Put a viewport in the bulkhead next to it. - an emergency manual override in a pressure door that the kids had to operate through a keypad next to the door (which of course failed for some reason). A _manual_ override should be just that, manual. Preferably simple and easy enough to use that you can get the door open quickly, even in darkness with the wind of decompression blowing around you. At least they knew enough to have the airlock doors opening _inwards_, so that air pressure holds them shut. And if for some stupid reason someone has left it open, it will _automagically_ swing shut in the event of a blowout. | Mike Hermann | hermann@cpsc.ucalgary.ca _Organized_ religion is like organized crime: it preys on people's weakness, generates huge profits, and is nearly impossible to eradicate. ------------------------------ ReSent-Message-ID: Resent-Date: Wed, 29 May 91 16:45:13 EDT Resent-From: tom <18084TM@msu.edu> Resent-To: space+@andrew.cmu.edu Date: Fri, 24 May 91 01:55:04 EDT Reply-To: space+%ANDREW.CMU.EDU@msu.edu From: space-request+%ANDREW.CMU.EDU%CARNEGIE.BITNET@msu.edu Subject: SPACE Digest V13 #570 Comments: To: space+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU To: david polito <15432DJP@MSU.BITNET>, Tom McWilliams <18084TM@MSU.BITNET> Re: galileo diverted to 'stroids >> [ Galileo could be retargeted to view "thousands" of astroids.] >In fact, it could not be. It could only reasonably do one or two >flyby's an orbit. Each orbit would be ~ 1 or 2 years long. With a >design life of about ten years, Galileo could only flyby at most >a dozen. Fine, dozens (not thousands, despite the fact that JPL's 'lifetimes' have a record of being underestimates) instead of TWO. I still think it's a good idea. >>MY conclusion; Blow Jupiter 'till we know what's at the 'stroids; I think >>at this point in time, science for it's own sake should take a back seat to >>science for maximization of resources. >> >Even if the resources of the astroids are EVERYTHING you claim they could be, >the US will not even be going back to the Moon for over 10 years. We will >not be mining the astroids for several years more. This has nothing to do >with the resources there, but rather the pace of our current space planning >and funding process. Galileo would not change this. Since we will not be >using them for years, why scrub Galileo to rush back asteroid data? You have missed the point, in a previous post, that the funding process (as well as the state of space activity) would be drastically changed by the discovery of even small amounts of resources. This would include accelerating the process of the exploration of other objects (such as the apollo 'stroids). So please don't use the 'funding process' or the 'state of space activity' as an argument against the possibility of finding resources. Look folks. Maybe I'm nearsighted, but no matter how much you argue that Galileo is fine (even if it's not) and that the things learned at Jupiter will be great, you won't convince me that they will be more importatnt than the asteroid work it COULD do. It's an opinion, afterall, and it's based on the assumption that resources are more importatnt than 'raw science'. Would anyone like to argue that my point follows if you accept the assumption? Or the assumption itself? Otherwise, we're just treading water. Tommy Mac Acknowledge-To: <18084TM@MSU> ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 91 21:23:43 GMT From: uokmax!jabishop@apple.com (Jonathan A Bishop) Subject: Re: Moonbase movie *Plymouth* to air Sunday? edotto@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Ed Otto) writes: >koreth@twitterpater.Eng.Sun.COM (Steven Grimm) writes: >>My housemate pointed out that the whole sequence inside the colony where people >>were scurrying for the radiation shelters was silly. The whole colony, or at >>least all the living areas, would have to be shielded; otherwise, wouldn't all >>those pretty plants have to be ripped out and replaced after every severe >>solar flare? >Actually, not. All of those plants were in the greenhouse which was >probably buried - I saw no windows in the several shots of it they had. >AND, the shelters were set up for people; the greenhouse was set up for plants. This was my main complaint, too. If the plants need less shielding than the people, fine. But, if the greenhouse is sufficiently shielded, why not just have everyone meet there? It's a central location, and it would be easier to take a headcount. Despite these possible errors, I'll watch any show featuring Pete Conrad. -------- jabishop@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu "I'm with you, LEM, though it's a shame that it had to be you. The mother ship is just a blip from your train made for two. I'm with you, boys, so please employ just a little extra care. It's on my mind, I'm left behind when I should have been there." --Jethro Tull, "For Michael Collins, Jeffrey, and Me" ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 91 23:35:02 GMT From: cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!linus!linus!cyclone!sokay@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (S. J. Okay) Subject: Re: lifeboats In article <42949@fmsrl7.UUCP> wreck@fmsrl7.UUCP (Ron Carter) writes: >Only for a ballistic capsule a la Soyuz, which gives a rather >rough ride on the way down; peak G's are very high. > >Apollo was a lifting capsule design (had to be in order to hold >itself in the atmosphere while moving > 18000 MPH). In order >to direct the lift in the proper direction, it is necessary to >have active attitude control. A lifting capsule can hold itself >high in the atmosphere and brake more slowly, giving a much >nicer ride down. Good point...I'd forgotten about this, until you brought it up of course, at which point I recalled having once seen a picture showing the reentry manuever sequence for a typical Apollo flight. >I very much doubt that making a thruster system which can be >stored reliably for > 1 yr before use is a problem for US >space technology. We have proven systems on the Pioneers >and Voyagers which have been running for over a decade. I'd tend to agree with this. Its obvious we know enough to keep small manuevering thrusters operable/reliable for many years. ---Steve ------------------------------ Date: 30 May 91 04:18:43 GMT From: cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wuarchive!rex!rouge!pc.usl.edu!dlbres10@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Phil Fraering) Subject: Re: USF: Brought to you by the same people who brought you the Moon Treaty? --text follows this line-- [Wow. Noone ever called me a Nazi/Communist before. Since there isn't a disclaimer on these posts, can I sue Cornell? :-) << evil grin ] [Actually, if there is a person out there named Fraering Philip, and he's not as nice as me, Philip Fraering, you and Cornell may have a problem. But since you directed your attact to the "Fraering Philip" entity that the posting software attributes my posts to in the header (which also means you didn't read all the post, otherwise you would have known otherwise from my signature), you'll probably get off lighter than you deserve.] In article <1991May29.173031.5103@vax5.cit.cornell.edu> usf@vax5.cit.cornell.edu writes: Rick Dobson>It sounds like to me Mr. Fraering Philip is either a Rick Dobson>Dictator type a Communist, or a Nazi. He takes pride in Rick Dobson>the fact that the effort to make the Moon and Mars the Rick Dobson>domain of all mankind (All the peoples of the world) Rick Dobson>which no single nation could hold claim too was Rick Dobson>undermined by this L-5 group. If this is what L-5 Rick Dobson>represents I take back any thing good I ever said about Rick Dobson>it. 1. Obviously you do not know what the "Moon Treaty" would have done. Said treaty would have made all resource activity in space dependent on approval of an international commision made up of representatives from all U.N. member nations. In short, it would have allowed any one nation to have veto power over space resource utilization. In short, no nation or group of nations or citizens of these nations would have been allowed to use any resources without the consent of all nations in the world. You spoke negatively of me as a communist or nazi (which I am not). I will assume that you believe that communism is bad, I believe you would also find bad a treaty which would have given every communist and fascist state from Cuba, Chile and South Africa to Cambodia and the provisional Tamil state (if they get U.N. representation in the near future. In case you didn't know, they are the #1 suspects in having killed Rajiv Gandhi). Since most of these dictatorships are in some sense "hydraulic tyrranies" they rely on control of resources in order to stay in power. They are unlikely to allow happen a venture which would increace the number of resources running around and undermine their power, and giving any one of them veto rights in any such venture will insure that it will never happen. Which basically means that space exploration and settlement in any large scale would not happen, because they are highly dependent on resource use. The moon treaty would have allowed any single nation to shut down space industrialization and colonization, until at least someone gets disgusted and breaks the treaty. Rick Dobson>Further more Mr. Philip says the NSS should continue these Rick Dobson>same activities, If I were NSS I wouldn't get near Mr. Philip Rick Dobson>with a ten foot pole. Real space buffs who want to see real Rick Dobson>progress in the advancement of space exploratory and Rick Dobson>developement should stear clear of negitive and destructive Rick Dobson>people like Mr. Fraering Philip. If people like Mr. Philip Rick Dobson>have their way only one race and class of people will ever Rick Dobson>have the opportunity to be part of a space faring Rick Dobson>civilization. [But you aren't NSS. NSS is a diverse group working towards a common goal. Unlike apparently USF, NSS isn't any one person.] I never said anything of the sort regarding race and class. I would like to see all races and classes in space. First of all, class: in case you hadn't noticed, more scientists originate in working class backgrounds than in the upper classes, who probably don't care so much for science and exploration, otherwise they'd study something other than law and medecine in college. In order to carry out space exploration, all classes of people will be needed. As for race, the best agriculturist in this part of the nation was black. I suspect that any self-sufficient ecologies set up in space will probably use material he research (among all the other materials). Heck, I am fairly sure that Tuskeegee is under contract with NASA to do CELSS research. The work of designing the next great steps in space will be made using physics pioneered by Europeans, number systems developed by Arabs, industries with their roots in China, and the computer it is done on will be built by a Canadian corporation using Japanese memory in combination with American processors, and (conjectoral) programmed by people of all backgrounds: hindustani, african, european, asian, american indian, maybe even scandiknave-ians. (UFF DA!) I am not only not racist, I believe the racists are doomed to fail. Part of the reason the Germans lost WWII was because of all the talented people in their own country who they killed or exiled in the name of racial purity. Rick Dobson>On the other hand an organized international civil Rick Dobson>space agency wwould insure that all the peoples and Rick Dobson>nations of the world community would have a chance and Rick Dobson>opprotunity to participate in a future space faring Rick Dobson>civilization. If you want to know the truth about the Rick Dobson>USFs present activities, write to us and we will send Rick Dobson>you the facts about the USF in stead of the one side Rick Dobson>comments by people like Mr. Fraering Philip. I Rick Dobson>wounder how much Mr. Philip was paid by Planetary Rick Dobson>Society to promote them as a prospect for an Rick Dobson>international space organization??! Heck, I want to see all peoples, "races", and cultures (except perhaps the ones with caste systems) in space. I outlined before that any attempt to try to do it seriously without diversity won't be as successful as one that will. I just don't think that giving every petty fascist on the planet veto power on space activity is the way to go about achieving this, and that a separate "International Space Agency" isn't needed. Currently the space program takes up very little of the government's budget, and there is vast room for improvement wrt the efficiency and cost effectiveness of our current efforts. Given cheaper launch and access to extraterrestrial materials, our efforts could be millions or billions of times more effective than they are now, without an increace in funding. The problems facing us aren't resource limits, but limits to people's talents in the current system. And with regard to the Planetary Society: I wasn't paid by them, I don't belong to them, and I have problems with some of the Society's ideas, such as an overemphasis on Mars as a goal... I just mentioned them as an example of international cooperation in space now taking place without any help from a dedicated "international civil space agency." The ISU is another example. The mere fact that cooperative undertakings between groups in the U.S. and the Soviet Union, countries which are usually bitter rivals, is happening spontaneously and at a rapid rate, is hopeful. And the groups that are doing so are doing _research_ and not studying ways to centralize everyone's space programs into a single whole. Phil Fraering || Usenet (?):dlbres10@pc.usl.edu || YellNet: 318/365-5418 Standard disclaimer, whatever a disclaimer is, applies. ''It hardly mattered now; it was, in fact, a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.`` - Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, _The Mote in God's Eye_ -- Phil Fraering || Usenet (?):dlbres10@pc.usl.edu || YellNet: 318/365-5418 Standard disclaimer, whatever a disclaimer is, applies. ''It hardly mattered now; it was, in fact, a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V13 #646 *******************