Return-path: X-Andrew-Authenticated-as: 7997;andrew.cmu.edu;Ted Anderson Received: from hogtown.andrew.cmu.edu via trymail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl@andrew.cmu.edu (->+dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl) (->ota+space.digests) ID ; Wed, 8 May 91 02:09:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Precedence: junk Reply-To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU From: space-request+@Andrew.CMU.EDU To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU Date: Wed, 8 May 91 02:09:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SPACE Digest V13 #504 SPACE Digest Volume 13 : Issue 504 Today's Topics: Re: Terraforming Mars? Why not Venus? Re: Saturn V computers Re: "more appropriate questions" (was: Why the space station?) ERS-1 Launch on hold Re: GREAT IDEA NASA Prediction Bulletins, Part 1 Administrivia: Submissions to the SPACE Digest/sci.space should be mailed to space+@andrew.cmu.edu. Other mail, esp. [un]subscription requests, should be sent to space-request+@andrew.cmu.edu, or, if urgent, to tm2b+@andrew.cmu.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 May 91 15:38:15 GMT From: usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!suned1!slced1!lev@rutgers.edu (Lloyd E Vancil) Subject: Re: Terraforming Mars? Why not Venus? In article <1991May1.153625.14203@zoo.toronto.edu> henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes: >In article <9551@suned1.Nswses.Navy.MIL> lev@slced1.nswses.navy.mil (Lloyd E Vancil) writes: >>It is safer for man to live on a planet, at the bottom of the gravity >>well, than it is for man to live in space... > >Actually, not so. The space environment is much more controllable. It's >the variations that kill you, not the constant and predictable part of the >environment. This was Gerry O'Neill's first and foremost contribution: >the observation that open space is a *better* location than the surface >of a planet for human civilization. You want gravity? Make as much of >it as you want using centrifugal force. I know what I said, But that's not what I meant department :=) Space is constant, A hard vacum and nothing to slow the solar wind -- In space a hard vacum outside requires your vessel to be much stronger than on the surface of a planet with a parial pressure ie Mars. In space a mechanical failure of the containment (space craft or space station) makes people DEAD now. On a planet, even Mars, mechanical failure is much less likely and if it did, other than being crushed or frozen, humans can live for a short time. What Mr O'Neill was alluding to is the Eggs-in-one-basket syndrome. If something from outside (large meteor) or something from inside (nuclear war) makes planet Earth uninhabitable, then Space colonies would be a chance for the human race and symbiotic-silicon based life (computers) to survive. There is a finite chance that a meteor will destroy our piddling little acomplishments. It would be safer for the race, if we didn't stay on this little planet. It is obvious that a truly civilized, and technology based civilization would move off the planet if for no other reason than to protect itself from some of the larger rocks out there. But, what I was saying, is that from a purely engineering point of view, man is safer at the bottom of a gravity well than in a device of his own making, exposed to hard vacum and the solar wind. -- | suned1!lev@elroy.JPL.Nasa.Gov | * S.T.A.R.S.! . + o | | lev@suned1.nswses.navy.mil | The Revolution has begun! . + | | sun!suntzu!suned1!lev | My Opinions are Mine mine mine hahahah!| ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 91 18:44:27 GMT From: news-server.csri.toronto.edu!utzoo!henry@uunet.uu.net (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Saturn V computers In article <7373@mace.cc.purdue.edu> dil@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Perry G Ramsey) writes: >That clock time works out to 2 MHz. Does anybody know what that >'serial processing at 512 k' means? Does that mean that this was >effectively a '1 bit bus'? Back in the old days when hardware was Expensive, it was not unheard-of to build a processor that did things like adds one bit at a time, to minimize the complexity of the logic. In general you gained more on simpler operation logic than you lost on one-bit-at-a-time sequencing control. Of course, it was kind of slow, but for many applications the tradeoff was worth it. -- And the bean-counter replied, | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology "beans are more important". | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 91 02:51:16 GMT From: unisoft!fai!sequent!crg5!szabo@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Nick Szabo) Subject: Re: "more appropriate questions" (was: Why the space station?) In article dlbres10@pc.usl.edu (Fraering Philip) writes: >1. Why a space station? Lack of imagination to think of anything better. The desire of such unimaginative organizations to remain employed. (No, I don't mean all of NASA. Just too much of it). >2. Why Space Station Freedom? If it isn't useful, and isn't really that entertaining (despite the astronauts), it has to have some very good PR. Snappy names are key. Even most of the engineers on the project realize the ridiculous irrelevence between the name to the project, and have taken to calling it "Fred". >3. Why some space stations/platforms? The general space station concept has been that we need something analogous to a port or central utility on earth. But a port assumes a central location is desirable in the first place, (as it is for many Earth activities requiring port support), thus begging the question. A central utility assumes the importance of some central resource that is being tapped. The resources of solar energy and theoretically generic bus functions such as computation and communications have some shallow economies of scale, but these are dwarfed by the need for a very wide range of different orbits by various space uses: equatorial, polar, geosynchronous, sun-synchronous, Molniya, Lagrangian, planetary, etc. have all proved to be important for a large variety of purposes. Furthermore, the proposed home of most stations, LEO, is the worst place in near-earth space for solar energy. The only other reason for centralization is central authority -- not a condition of benefit to an endevour such as space development that requires large doses of imagination and diversity in order to succeed. The concept of a central port or utility in space is at best premature, at worst severely damaging to the progress of space industry. Over 90% of non-NASA use, and even a big chunk of NASA use, of space lies in orbits well out of reach of the 28-degree Shuttle/Freedom low earth orbit. There is room for some degree of sub-centralization -- for example several instruments or furnaces sharing a common bus -- but over-centralization, like over-scaling, can set back space industry severely. >4. What would be a good working definition of a "platform?" It could >mean a lightsat of some sort, and the lightsat might be one. By this definition, all current satellites are "platforms" to one or more payloads. There will probably develop a "food chain" of centralization, with some orbits and payloads being more shared and centralized than others. The most likely candidate for centralization is geosynchronous orbit, where solar energy is abundant and usage for similar purposes fairly large. >5. Why Skylab? Why Saylut (pick a number) ? Why Mir? For the Soviets, automation is nearly nonexistant -- witness Phobos and most of their other planetary probes -- nearly total failures. They also have a set of astronaut groupies similar to ours here in the U.S., and a central government that is very interested in central control and willing to write large checks for something that contributes to the near-term goal of ideological prestige but relatively little to longer-term needs of industry or civilization. It is no wonder they dove right into space stations -- but it is wonderous mighty why our nation would want to follow such a primitive route. >6. If the space station is going to support exploration, then, >"Why Apollo?".... The Apollo planners considered space stations -- it was then as now an obsessive paradigm with astronaut fans -- and scrapped the notion as an expensive obstacle to getting to the Moon. Viking, Voyager, and our other great journeys of exploration never took seriously the notion that a central LEO station could benefit exploration. Magellan and Galileo, two explorers that were forced to use a centralized LEO platform, the Shuttle, were severely delayed and compromised as a result. -- Nick Szabo szabo@sequent.com "Living below your means allows you to live better than living above your means." -- Dave Boyd The above opinions are my own and not related to those of any organization I may be affiliated with. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 May 91 14:20:00 SET From: HSTEINER%ESRIN.BITNET@vma.cc.cmu.edu Comment: CROSSNET mail via MAILER@CMUCCVMA Subject: ERS-1 Launch on hold Date: 03 May 1991, 14:11:35 SET From: HSTEINER at ESRIN To: space+@andrew.cmu.edu ESA PRESS RELEASE no. 12bis Paris, 3 May 1991 LAUNCH OF ERS-1 SATELLITE ON HOLD Updated Information In a statement issued on 3 May 1991, Arianespace confirmed the postponemnet of ERS-1 launch by Ariane V44, which cannot now take place before 22 May 1991. When this revised delay was announced, the launch preparation for the ERS-1 satellite and its ground segement were proceeding according to plan. ERS-1 activities have now been put "on hold"; the objective is to maintain the spacecraft in the optimal state of readiness so that when the vehicle is cleared for launch, the satellite will be ready to go. "Of course this delay is disappointing since so many scientists are awaiting the ERS-1 data with great anticipation. However, I fully understand the Arianespace safety and reliaility priorities", says Philip Goldsmith, ESA's Director for the Observation of the Earth and its Environment. Compiled by Hans Steiner ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 91 14:32:05 GMT From: swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!crdgw1!gecrdvm1!gipp@ucsd.edu Subject: Re: GREAT IDEA In article <1991May3.044014.20789@agate.berkeley.edu>, fcrary@monsoon.Berkeley.EDU (Frank Crary) says: > > >Orbital Science Corp. is a "small startup company" which will begin >operational launches of a new, inovative launcher later this year. For >all the political power of "established big launch companies" the US >government is one of OSC's biggest costumers. A costumer? does this mean the gov't dresses them up at hollowen? seriously: for the hype and praise for OSC (which I am not knocking or denying), how can everybody rate them as the hottest thing in town on the basis of one launch (with the initial ride given/subsidized by a gov't plane)? Isn't their money made on separation doohickeys and other subcomponents? Let's be fair: if NASA makes one launch a year or, indeed does anything right once or twice or three times...., they are labelled- lucky. Besides, one success story in two or three decades does not a good case make, in my estimation. > >As far as one company, wich decides to build a cheap LV, cornering the >launch market, there is no reason to think that what company X has done >sucessfuly, company Y cannot also do. If the idea works, others will >join in. Not if the critical info is patented. HOw long did it take kodak to break into the instant photo market monopoly held by polaroid (sp?) I don't think the major launch companies, or even everybody's darling OSC, can stay in business that long without a launch, at least not the launch business. ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 91 22:00:13 GMT From: udecc.engr.udayton.edu!blackbird.afit.af.mil!tkelso@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (TS Kelso) Subject: NASA Prediction Bulletins, Part 1 The most current orbital elements from the NASA Prediction Bulletins are carried on the Celestial BBS, (513) 427-0674, and are updated several times weekly. Documentation and tracking software are also available on this system. As a service to the satellite user community, the most current of these elements are uploaded weekly to sci.space. This week's elements are provided below. The Celestial BBS may be accessed 24 hours/day at 300, 1200, or 2400 baud using 8 data bits, 1 stop bit, no parity. - Current NASA Prediction Bulletins #842a - Alouette 1 1 00424U 62B-A 1 91122.06278918 .00000350 00000-0 40811-3 0 4233 2 00424 80.4673 331.6775 0022529 170.7749 189.3812 13.67523160426274 ATS 3 1 03029U 67111 A 91119.74025702 -.00000076 00000-0 99999-4 0 5739 2 03029 13.5905 18.4961 0016106 225.7660 134.0291 1.00272826 85966 Cosmos 398 1 04966U 71 16 A 91122.74687144 .00094631 19892-4 45648-3 0 5910 2 04966 51.4865 124.1352 2039674 54.6393 322.8431 11.56658725627739 Starlette 1 07646U 75010 A 91112.81964756 -.00000009 00000-0 40141-4 0 2724 2 07646 49.8213 16.7198 0206235 133.7693 228.0471 13.82154870818600 LAGEOS 1 08820U 76039 A 91119.42318300 .00000005 00000-0 99999-4 0 2767 2 08820 109.8329 103.4625 0044307 171.2911 188.8204 6.38664213 94130 GOES 2 1 10061U 77048 A 91119.73513140 -.00000254 00000-0 99999-4 0 6212 2 10061 8.8314 59.6835 0002618 356.8371 2.8156 1.00240491 52189 IUE 1 10637U 78012 A 91118.84928871 -.00000179 00000-0 79862-4 0 2731 2 10637 32.8031 113.8243 1404960 1.7727 358.6579 1.00280813 9630 GPS-0001 1 10684U 78020 A 91120.05553628 .00000004 00000-0 99999-4 0 6724 2 10684 63.9021 79.7445 0126668 199.7791 159.6671 2.00553305 82200 GPS-0002 1 10893U 78 47 A 91118.56320697 -.00000022 00000-0 99999-4 0 3779 2 10893 64.2287 320.6379 0172578 24.2097 336.6220 2.00532299 94991 GOES 3 1 10953U 78062 A 91119.05919763 .00000106 00000-0 99999-4 0 1248 2 10953 7.6950 62.4357 0004836 103.4155 256.5316 1.00289766 247 SeaSat 1 1 10967U 78064 A 91122.01405585 .00002099 00000-0 75511-3 0 5371 2 10967 108.0241 258.5568 0006021 187.5007 172.5943 14.36580031672228 GPS-0003 1 11054U 78093 A 91119.79795641 -.00000021 00000-0 99999-4 0 4254 2 11054 63.6931 316.7002 0065331 117.0561 243.6272 2.00572000 92035 Nimbus 7 1 11080U 78098 A 91122.24467547 .00000238 00000-0 24422-3 0 7747 2 11080 99.1743 24.5877 0008720 316.0292 44.0160 13.83548791632159 GPS-0004 1 11141U 78112 A 91118.43109102 .00000004 00000-0 99999-4 0 1756 2 11141 63.9643 79.6673 0063214 311.7286 47.6927 2.00545099 90708 GPS-0005 1 11690U 80 11 A 91122.05821158 .00000005 00000-0 99999-4 0 1730 2 11690 64.3568 81.8380 0123996 203.1795 156.2236 2.00552011 96631 GPS-0006 1 11783U 80 32 A 91115.00000000 -.00000021 00000-0 99999-4 0 4730 2 11783 63.2389 316.5436 0189980 28.8358 75.5682 2.03449999 80572 GOES 5 1 12472U 81049 A 91121.98240863 .00000139 00000-0 99999-4 0 1244 2 12472 4.2581 71.8330 0004281 287.8269 71.9941 1.00262209 35424 Cosmos 1383 1 13301U 82 66 A 91122.31943441 .00000284 00000-0 32124-3 0 7249 2 13301 82.9279 66.8776 0028686 4.5112 355.6271 13.67917021441308 LandSat 4 1 13367U 82 72 A 91122.70993749 .00001245 00000-0 28573-3 0 7866 2 13367 98.1114 183.1535 0003039 189.4348 170.6782 14.57152935467835 IRAS 1 13777U 83 4 A 91122.57224961 .00000310 00000-0 23824-3 0 9773 2 13777 99.0216 319.2260 0011977 226.3762 133.6404 13.98949369 91596 Cosmos 1447 1 13916U 83 21 A 91122.06010831 .00000228 00000-0 22996-3 0 8237 2 13916 82.9467 136.3371 0038462 334.2324 25.6899 13.74141824406460 TDRS 1 1 13969U 83 26 B 91122.03853469 .00000130 00000-0 99999-4 0 3807 2 13969 5.2189 63.2660 0004164 336.9299 22.8186 1.00283493 2542 GOES 6 1 14050U 83 41 A 91121.97038579 .00000108 00000-0 99999-4 0 4755 2 14050 3.0342 74.3363 0004517 197.3631 162.7196 1.00286631 1333 OSCAR 10 1 14129U 83 58 B 91121.60065856 -.00000148 00000-0 99998-4 0 6710 2 14129 25.8131 148.0591 6035385 238.5955 48.7305 2.05930413 31282 GPS-0008 1 14189U 83 72 A 91116.29958384 .00000003 00000-0 99999-4 0 9733 2 14189 63.5287 78.0498 0142854 225.5026 133.2912 2.00568071 57044 LandSat 5 1 14780U 84 21 A 91122.67717331 .00000428 00000-0 99999-4 0 6423 2 14780 98.2320 183.6467 0002613 145.5570 214.5772 14.57092847381243 UoSat 2 1 14781U 84 21 B 91122.59224067 .00003170 00000-0 57549-3 0 104 2 14781 97.9005 169.0852 0010841 319.1087 40.9236 14.66845596382761 GPS-0009 1 15039U 84 59 A 91116.97173791 .00000002 00000-0 99999-4 0 2248 2 15039 63.2757 77.1424 0028702 227.3122 132.4483 2.00565431 50335 Cosmos 1574 1 15055U 84 62 A 91121.64707947 .00000255 00000-0 26200-3 0 732 2 15055 82.9602 187.5372 0027582 153.9031 206.3505 13.73452822343787 GPS-0010 1 15271U 84 97 A 91111.43248582 -.00000021 00000-0 99999-4 0 739 2 15271 63.0423 315.8797 0112653 332.5029 26.9329 2.00564740 47334 Cosmos 1602 1 15331U 84105 A 91122.34230959 .00005722 00000-0 74237-3 0 5865 2 15331 82.5554 64.7330 0023523 12.6129 347.5649 14.80432223355261 NOAA 9 1 15427U 84123 A 91123.10234242 .00000560 00000-0 32130-3 0 7778 2 15427 99.1703 135.5346 0014869 187.1450 172.9510 14.12985564329151 GPS-0011 1 16129U 85 93 A 91111.65008906 .00000003 00000-0 99999-4 0 7733 2 16129 64.0528 78.5328 0123196 147.4526 213.2949 2.00564672 40545 Mir 1 16609U 86 17 A 91122.53643102 .00041942 00000-0 40528-3 0 4473 2 16609 51.6051 158.9464 0008449 166.6956 193.4219 15.65973348298013 SPOT 1 1 16613U 86 19 A 91122.68215378 .00001097 00000-0 53252-3 0 3290 2 16613 98.6934 197.4000 0001197 23.5138 336.6056 14.20069136109279 Cosmos 1766 1 16881U 86 55 A 91122.45282252 .00003838 00000-0 50602-3 0 4323 2 16881 82.5459 123.3293 0022970 28.8637 331.3796 14.79706006256326 EGP 1 16908U 86 61 A 91111.48965860 -.00000042 00000-0 -22619-4 0 3710 2 16908 50.0126 28.1926 0011151 260.6465 99.3103 12.44394215213248 NOAA 10 1 16969U 86 73 A 91120.06912542 .00000949 00000-0 42827-3 0 6262 2 16969 98.5676 145.4917 0014660 70.1439 290.1318 14.24101472239707 MOS-1 1 17527U 87 18 A 91120.69099253 -.00001644 00000-0 -12124-2 0 8338 2 17527 99.0602 193.5958 0001324 96.0141 264.1089 13.94859686213523 GOES 7 1 17561U 87 22 A 91118.69804927 -.00000048 00000-0 99999-4 0 8265 2 17561 0.0785 35.9711 0004786 330.8124 353.2781 1.00275972 8734 Kvant-1 1 17845U 87 30 A 91122.60021476 .00108936 00000-0 10339-2 0 5838 2 17845 51.6017 158.6227 0008808 170.8278 189.1229 15.66009156232755 DMSP B5D2-3 1 18123U 87 53 A 91122.97881910 .00001250 00000-0 66954-3 0 9818 2 18123 98.8142 314.3095 0014104 189.7319 170.3583 14.14568524199604 RS-10/11 1 18129U 87 54 A 91122.55873330 .00000097 00000-0 99999-4 0 6356 2 18129 82.9239 92.5743 0010665 318.9430 41.0927 13.72181431193335 Meteor 2-16 1 18312U 87 68 A 91121.78240206 .00000495 00000-0 43702-3 0 6766 2 18312 82.5539 37.7631 0013769 76.5850 283.6825 13.83785892187041 Meteor 2-17 1 18820U 88 5 A 91121.85361924 .00000196 00000-0 16501-3 0 5226 2 18820 82.5399 97.1296 0016884 143.9190 216.3113 13.84476200164277 DMSP B5D2-4 1 18822U 88 6 A 91123.00844600 .00000951 00000-0 44727-3 0 8813 2 18822 98.6012 359.7306 0007827 66.9138 293.2864 14.21995089169647 Glonass 34 1 19163U 88 43 A 91122.24248273 .00000020 00000-0 99999-4 0 2871 2 19163 64.9166 148.5094 0007315 203.8465 156.1754 2.13102468 22942 Glonass 36 1 19165U 88 43 C 91122.29931209 .00000020 00000-0 99999-4 0 2854 2 19165 64.8980 148.5065 0005164 318.8415 41.1738 2.13102774 22942 AO-13 1 19216U 88 51 B 91121.30113593 .00000118 00000-0 99999-4 0 2712 2 19216 56.8390 97.0967 7167973 253.2812 22.8340 2.09698033 22073 OKEAN 1 1 19274U 88 56 A 91121.71733882 .00004281 00000-0 57613-3 0 1333 2 19274 82.5182 222.7503 0021770 158.6757 201.5365 14.78870766151966 Meteor 3-2 1 19336U 88 64 A 91121.83203238 .00000113 00000-0 27656-3 0 7746 2 19336 82.5434 51.9899 0015806 236.0518 123.9108 13.16923357132893 Glonass 39 1 19503U 88 85 C 91122.78846713 -.00000018 00000-0 99999-4 0 1885 2 19503 65.4680 27.8044 0004327 191.4057 168.6298 2.13103403 20444 NOAA 11 1 19531U 88 89 A 91122.43624752 .00000528 00000-0 30859-3 0 5270 2 19531 99.0278 76.8911 0012935 105.9187 254.3410 14.12118579134016 TDRS 2 1 19548U 88 91 B 91110.90513269 .00000112 00000-0 99999-4 0 2716 2 19548 0.8845 79.9671 0002661 323.4904 316.4340 1.00273658 8004 Glonass 40 1 19749U 89 1 A 91122.36061115 .00000020 00000-0 99999-4 0 9863 2 19749 64.8609 148.1664 0007707 274.9736 84.9985 2.13101882 17966 Glonass 41 1 19750U 89 1 B 91121.94938096 .00000020 00000-0 99999-4 0 84 2 19750 64.8799 148.2036 0007796 257.8042 102.1632 2.13102270 17953 GPS BII-01 1 19802U 89013 A 91103.54677754 .00000080 00000-0 26739 3 0 02338 2 19802 055.0738 185.5709 0049862 165.7198 194.4554 02.00562574015774 Akebono 1 19822U 89 16 A 91122.03560294 .00038246 00000-0 21027-2 0 77 2 19822 75.0826 80.3451 4090570 15.2633 354.1557 7.28392616 22747 Meteor 2-18 1 19851U 89 18 A 91121.69193723 .00000343 00000-0 29828-3 0 4744 2 19851 82.5268 334.6825 0014014 184.7378 175.3655 13.84130389109626 MOP-1 1 19876U 89 20 B 91 83.49540771 .00000025 00000-0 99999-4 0 1840 2 19876 0.2910 50.4188 0001552 314.1531 355.4087 1.00273956 3471 TDRS 3 1 19883U 89 21 B 91116.52037556 -.00000238 00000-0 99999-4 0 2738 2 19883 0.9155 81.5128 0007921 325.1411 313.3703 1.00267462 78038 GPS BII-02 1 20061U 89 44 A 91103.87321174 -.00000034 00000-0 99999-4 0 2711 2 20061 54.8877 3.6255 0090918 184.4845 175.4971 2.00566450 13525 Nadezhda 1 1 20103U 89 50 A 91121.85068074 .00000253 00000-0 25832-3 0 3728 2 20103 82.9627 50.0982 0035908 230.7576 129.0382 13.73686776 91460 GPS BII-03 1 20185U 89064 A 91104.71060838 -.00000123 00000-0 00000 0 0 01797 2 20185 054.9166 186.3301 0020176 172.0341 188.0316 02.00562496012111 GPS BII-04 1 20302U 89085 A 91106.73331065 -.00000084 00000-0 00000 0 0 01794 2 20302 054.3986 304.6789 0029381 333.0204 026.8604 02.00556152010956 Meteor 3-3 1 20305U 89 86 A 91121.72427256 .00000043 00000-0 99999-4 0 3732 2 20305 82.5584 353.3394 0014933 253.1527 106.7957 13.15951988 72845 -- Dr TS Kelso Assistant Professor of Space Operations tkelso@blackbird.afit.af.mil Air Force Institute of Technology ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V13 #504 *******************