Return-path: X-Andrew-Authenticated-as: 7997;andrew.cmu.edu;Ted Anderson Received: from hogtown.andrew.cmu.edu via trymail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl@andrew.cmu.edu (->+dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl) (->ota+space.digests) ID ; Thu, 25 Apr 91 02:34:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Precedence: junk Reply-To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU From: space-request+@Andrew.CMU.EDU To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU Date: Thu, 25 Apr 91 02:34:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SPACE Digest V13 #460 SPACE Digest Volume 13 : Issue 460 Today's Topics: Re: Saturn V blueprints Re: Saturn V and the ALS Re: Laser launchers Returned mail: unknown mailer error 1 Administrivia: Submissions to the SPACE Digest/sci.space should be mailed to space+@andrew.cmu.edu. Other mail, esp. [un]subscription requests, should be sent to space-request+@andrew.cmu.edu, or, if urgent, to tm2b+@andrew.cmu.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Apr 91 19:40:41 GMT From: dog.ee.lbl.gov!hellgate.utah.edu!caen!ox.com!hela!aws@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Allen W. Sherzer) Subject: Re: Saturn V blueprints In article <72817@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU> v071pzp4@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu writes: >>etc.). A proven design or simple derivative of one is a better bet than a > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>clean-slate one, given Congress's memories of the shuttle experience. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >Better not tell the guys at GM Saturn. Their "clean-slate" automobiles >are a hekkuva lot better put together than GM's "dervatives." Moderate >pricing and high quality were both achieved. Not the same thing. Saturn (the car) does not use the very latest technology everywhere like the Shuttle does. A lot of what they do is very advanced but it is not the latest stuff. Most of the success of the GM Saturn comes from the human aspects of their corporate culture. Allen -- +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Allen W. Sherzer | If you love something, let it go. If it doesn't come back | | aws@iti.org | to you, hunt it down and kill it. | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 91 19:04:03 GMT From: dog.ee.lbl.gov!hellgate.utah.edu!caen!sdd.hp.com!usc!samsung!noose.ecn.purdue.edu!en.ecn.purdue.edu!irvine@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (/dev/null) Subject: Re: Saturn V and the ALS > >The ALS is being designed around > >reliablility and cost. While actual research can be expensive, the product > >you get (cheap effective launchers in this case), will be what > >you aim for. > > Boy I got a feeling of deja vu reading that. It took me a while but I finally > tracked down why. The following is from the Congress Record of Feb. 29, 1973. I recall no Sen. Snerds, or anyone by the name of Nasa-guY. Where did you get this dialogue? > > Now history has shown that Senator Snerds concerns where indeed valid and > that Mr. Nasa-guy was wrong. Question: what has changed about the current > situation as regards to ALS which would cause us to expect ALS to be any > different? > Your assumption: One mess up = Always mess up. Your ficticious dialogue does not prove that ALS won't work. You are ready to run hell-bent to a direction that WILL cost a lot of money the minute you see something that you feel will for the fact that it is new. I will state this again: Re tooling and parts finding for the old Saturn V is a nightmare that does not give us much benefit besides a rocket (A research program, we get a rocket and discover new things we did not know before - always beneficial). If we don't try to become better, we only go backwards! (Many other nations would thank us for this) -- +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Brent L. Irvine | These are MY opinions | | Malt Beverage Analyst | As if they counted...:) | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 91 14:23:09 GMT From: eru!hagbard!sunic!mcsun!ukc!mucs!logitek!hrc63!mrcu!paj@bloom-beacon.mit.edu (Paul Johnson) Subject: Re: Laser launchers Errm, 'scuse me. Dumb question time. How does a laser launcher actually work? Thanks, Paul. -- Paul Johnson | Isn't modern education wonderful: one size fits all! -------------^------------------v-------------------------v------------------- GEC-Marconi Research is not | Telex: 995016 GECRES G | Tel: +44 245 73331 responsible for my opinions. | Inet: paj@gec-mrc.co.uk | Fax: +44 245 75244 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 91 02:24:23 -0400 From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Subject: Returned mail: unknown mailer error 1 Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 554 "| /usr/local/lib/mh/slocal -user wrasman -verbose >> /yellow/homes/wrasman/slocal-log 2>&1"... unknown mailer error 1 ----- Unsent message follows ----- Received: from UTKVX.utk.edu by CS.UTK.EDU with SMTP (5.61++/2.5.1s-UTK) id AA20452; Wed, 24 Apr 91 02:24:23 -0400 Received: from UTKVX.utk.edu by CS.UTK.EDU with MAIL-11 (utk-mail11d v1.7); Wed, 24 Apr 91 02:24:31 EDT Message-Id: <9104240624.AA20450@CS.UTK.EDU> Date: Wed, 24 Apr 91 02:24:31 EDT From: space+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU X-To: 'Tarniku Kelos' Subject: SPACE Digest V13 #452 To: WRASMAN Return-path: Received: from JNET-DAEMON by utkvx.utk.edu with PMDF#10578; Wed, 24 Apr 1991 02:35 EDT Received: From UTKVM1(MAILER) by UTKVX1 with Jnet id 0433 for RAZRON@UTKVX; Wed, 24 Apr 91 02:35 EDT Received: by UTKVM1 (Mailer R2.05) id 0835; Wed, 24 Apr 91 02:33:31 LCL Date: Wed, 24 Apr 91 02:33:55 EDT From: space-request+%ANDREW.CMU.EDU@CARNEGIE.BITNET Subject: SPACE Digest V13 #452 Sender: space-request+@andrew.cmu.edu To: 'Tarniku Kelos' Reply-to: space+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU Message-id: <657A963820205EC9@utkvx.utk.edu> X-Envelope-to: RAZRON Comments: To: space+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU SPACE Digest Volume 13 : Issue 452 Today's Topics: Returned mail: unknown mailer error 1 Administrivia: Submissions to the SPACE Digest/sci.space should be mailed to space+@andrew.cmu.edu. Other mail, esp. [un]subscription requests, should be sent to space-request+@andrew.cmu.edu, or, if urgent, to tm2b+@andrew.cmu.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Apr 91 01:48:54 -0400 From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Subject: Returned mail: unknown mailer error 1 Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 554 "| /usr/local/lib/mh/slocal -user wrasman -verbose >> /yellow/homes/wrasman/ slocal-log 2>&1"... unknown mailer error 1 ----- Unsent message follows ----- Received: from UTKVX.utk.edu by CS.UTK.EDU with SMTP (5.61++/2.5.1s-UTK) id AA19851; Wed, 24 Apr 91 01:48:54 -0400 Received: from UTKVX.utk.edu by CS.UTK.EDU with MAIL-11 (utk-mail11d v1.7); Wed, 24 Apr 91 01:49:12 EDT Message-Id: <9104240549.AA19849@CS.UTK.EDU> Date: Wed, 24 Apr 91 01:49:13 EDT From: space+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU X-To: 'Tarniku Kelos' Subject: SPACE Digest V13 #448 To: WRASMAN Return-path: Received: from JNET-DAEMON by utkvx.utk.edu with PMDF#10578; Wed, 24 Apr 1991 01:50 EDT Received: From UTKVM1(MAILER) by UTKVX1 with Jnet id 0052 for RAZRON@UTKVX; Wed, 24 Apr 91 01:50 EDT Received: by UTKVM1 (Mailer R2.05) id 0404; Wed, 24 Apr 91 01:48:10 LCL Date: Wed, 24 Apr 91 01:44:24 EDT From: space-request+%ANDREW.CMU.EDU@CARNEGIE.BITNET Subject: SPACE Digest V13 #448 Sender: space-request+@andrew.cmu.edu To: 'Tarniku Kelos' Reply-to: space+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU Message-id: <5F23F09340205EC9@utkvx.utk.edu> X-Envelope-to: RAZRON Comments: To: space+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU SPACE Digest Volume 13 : Issue 448 Today's Topics: Re: Saturn V and the ALS POTENTIAL GEOMAGNETIC STORM WARNING CANCELLATION Eclipse Trip to Mazatlan Re: Energia (was Re: Saturn V blueprints) Re: Atlas Centaur bites the big one, 4/18 Re: Energia (was Re: Saturn V blueprints) Re: Government vs. Commercial R&D FACE on MARS -- Request for info... Re: Galileo status reports SPACE Digest V13 #442 Administrivia: Submissions to the SPACE Digest/sci.space should be mailed to space+@andrew.cmu.edu. Other mail, esp. [un]subscription requests, should be sent to space-request+@andrew.cmu.edu, or, if urgent, to tm2b+@andrew.cmu.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Apr 91 21:40:24 GMT From: ucselx!usc!cs.utexas.edu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo!henry@uc sd.edu (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Saturn V and the ALS In article <1991Apr23.200619.26948@en.ecn.purdue.edu> irvine@en.ecn.purdue.edu ( /dev/null) writes: >What I was trying to say is that the only costs of the Saturn is not >the booster. The overall economic impact of stepping back 20+ years >in technology because something might have had, at one time, a track >record, might be devaststing in aerospace and other industries. Nonsense. There is no reason why R&D work on more advanced systems could not go on. But it is important to distinguish building a reliable and cost-effective launcher from doing R&D in advanced launcher technology. The two are not the same; indeed, they are incompatible. If we want something that works well and that has some chance of being cheap, we *want* technology that is old enough to have been debugged. >(Also, much of the Saturn would have to be redesigned ... Nonsense again. Almost nothing would need redesign; the only area I can think of where this would be beneficial would be the electronics. We'd need to redesign the *tooling*, and that would cause small changes in the design of the launcher, and much of it would have to be re-tested, but the basic design is not broken and does not need fixing. >... The minute we start saying "good >enough" (as it has been said of the Saturn V!) is when we die as an >aerospace leader!! "The best is the enemy of the good." - Admiral Gorshkov. Somehow I think a country with reliable and cost-effective low-tech launchers is much more of an aerospace leader than one which can't make its high-tech birds work. -- And the bean-counter replied, | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology "beans are more important". | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 91 16:20:06 MDT From: oler <@BITNET.CC.CMU.EDU:oler@HG.ULeth.CA> (CARY OLER) Subject: POTENTIAL GEOMAGNETIC STORM WARNING CANCELLATION X-St-Vmsmail-To: st%"space+@andrew.cmu.edu" /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ SOLAR TERRESTRIAL BULLETIN 23 April, 1991 22:00 UT /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ POTENTIAL GEOMAGNETIC STORM WARNING CANCELLATION The following Warning has been CANCELLED: - POTENTIAL GEOMAGNETIC STORM WARNING (cancelled). Potential GIC Status: GREEN. The flare effects from the major X-class flare of 20 April failed to materialize. The window for potential geomagnetic storming has passed. As a result, the Potential Geomagnetic Storm Warning has been terminated. Geomagnetic activity is expected to remain generally quiet to unsettled for the next couple of days. Solar activity indices have been dropping rapidly over the last several days. In particular, the solar flux has dropped to a level of 146 on 23 April, which is the lowest level observed since 02 November, 1990. Major flaring is no longer possible from the few very weak regions currently visible on the solar disk. In fact, only minor C-class flaring and occassional subflaring appears possible. SIDs/SWFs are not expected over the next several days. Stable ionospheric conditions should prevail. HF and VHF propagation conditions will remain near normal over the next several days. No periods of degradation are anticipated. Auroral activity will remain generally dormant. ** End of Bulletin ** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1991 17:22:28 CDT From: REIFF@SPACVAX.RICE.EDU (Pat Reiff (713)527-8750-2650) Subject: Eclipse Trip to Mazatlan X-Vmsmail-To: SMTP%"space+@andrew.cmu.edu" For those who would like an "out of this world" experience, there still are a few spaces left on an eclipse trip to Mazatlan for which I am the science advisor. We leave July 9 from Houston (chartered nonstop flight), stay 3 nights at the (beachfront) El Cid Mega Resort; watch the eclipse from on the grounds of the hotel (5 minutes and 27 seconds of totality; more if you want to share a cab and go somewhere else); and return July 12. The cost is $599 each for double occupancy; $569 each, triple; $559, quad. Hotel, air (from Houston) and transfers to and from airport are included; meals and local travel are not. (Who wants someone else to arrange their meals in Mexico??) This is the cheapest such trip I've seen advertised anywhere, and the operator is working at virtually no profit (he upped the class of the hotel without increasing the price). The tour operator is experienced in arranging amateur astronomy travel; I went with them to Canada in '79 and was a guide to Australia for Halley's Comet in '86. They have also arranged eclipse trips to many other places. For information call George at Hanssen/Future travel (800)544-4988. In Houston call (713)480-4020 or 480-1988. Tell him I sent ya. ------ From the First Space Science Department in the World: : _^ ^_ ____ Patricia H. Reiff : / O O \ |GO \ Department of Space Physics and Astronomy : \ V / |OWLS\ Rice University, Houston, TX 77251-1892 : / ""R"" \__/ internet: reiff@spacvax.rice.edu (128.42.10.3) \ ""U"" / SPAN: RICE::REIFF : _/|\ /|\_ "Why does man want to go to the Moon? ... Why does Rice play Texas?" ....JFK, Rice Stadium, 1962 ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 91 19:06:40 GMT From: mojo!SYSMGR%KING.ENG.UMD.EDU@mimsy.umd.edu (Doug Mohney) Subject: Re: Energia (was Re: Saturn V blueprints) In article <1991Apr23.145241.18749@iti.org>, aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writ es: >In article <1734@qusuna.queensu.CA> akerman@qucis.queensu.CA (Richard Akerman) writes: >>Perhaps this has been discussed before, but, at least conceptually, is there >>any reason NASA shouldn't use Energia as its heavy-lift vehicle? > >The main problem is that I don't think we can regard the USSR as a reliable >trading partner. There is too high a risk of either a civil war or a new >Stalinism which would harm our access to LEO. They need the cash too badly...they'd provide decent services. There's nothing which NASA needs to lift into orbit on Energia which couldn't wait a couple of years in case of disruption of launch services from the Soviet Union via political events. NASA projects lived through the disruption of services after Challenger, which was UN-anticipated. With a little contingency planning, Energia could work. Signature envy: quality of some people to put 24+ lines in their .sigs -- > SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU < -- ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 91 22:23:01 GMT From: wuarchive!rex!rouge!dlbres10@decwrl.dec.com (Fraering Philip) Subject: Re: Atlas Centaur bites the big one, 4/18 In article <1991Apr23.153252.2873@zoo.toronto.edu> henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes: >In article <1991Apr23.144500.18235@iti.org> aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writ es: >>Wasn't this the first failure of a Centaur upper stage? I have >>been looking around but can't find another one which didn't work. >Sounds like you didn't look back far enough. :-) Centaur's development >was a memorable horror story, although it has been very reliable in >recent times. There was a failure back in the mid-80's, but it was due to the fuel tank. If the engine was the cause of the failure, it would be the first one in a very long time. Which is why I suspect the electronics, but then again I'm no expert. -- Phil Fraering dlbres10@pc.usl.edu Joke going around: "How many country music singers does it take to change a light bulb? Four. One to change the bulb, and three to sing about the old one." ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 91 20:17:23 GMT From: pasteur!agate!bionet!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!samsung!uakari.primate.wisc.edu! caen!ox.com!hela!aws@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Allen W. Sherzer) Subject: Re: Energia (was Re: Saturn V blueprints) In article <00947905.3FAEE140@KING.ENG.UMD.EDU> sysmgr@KING.ENG.UMD.EDU (Doug Mo hney) writes: >>The main problem is that I don't think we can regard the USSR as a reliable >>trading partner. There is too high a risk of either a civil war or a new >>Stalinism which would harm our access to LEO. >They need the cash too badly...they'd provide decent services. If there is shooting in the area and the rebels control the launch pad then they won't be able to provide decent service. If they reopened the Gulag and Congress held up the launch on human rights grounds then we wouldn't get good launch services. >There's nothing which NASA needs to lift into orbit on Energia which >couldn't wait a couple of years in case of disruption of launch services >from the Soviet Union via political events. Of course, the last disruption in the Soviet Union because of political events lasted 70 years. I agree that nothing NASA is doing couldn't wait a couple of years (subject to launch windows). However, that is not what I am talking about. I would like to see an active US space program which produces a spacefairing civilization. To do this the Soviets are not reliable enough. Allen -- +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Allen W. Sherzer | If you love something, let it go. If it doesn't come back | | aws@iti.org | to you, hunt it down and kill it. | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 91 01:55:57 GMT From: sun-barr!ccut!wnoc-tyo-news!astemgw!kuis!rins!will@apple.com (will) Subject: Re: Government vs. Commercial R&D In article <1991Apr23.130204.12618@m.cs.uiuc.edu>, carroll@cs.uiuc.edu (Alan M. Carroll) writes: >In article <243@rins.ryukoku.ac.jp>, will@rins.ryukoku.ac.jp (will) writes: >> Perhaps if the U.S. companys could pull their resourses together and >> work together without suing the pants off each other there is a way. > >Not possible here. Any group of companies trying this would be blasted >out of existence by a _government_ anti-trust lawsuit. Any purchase of >a major company must approved by the government. And we call ourselves >a free market country. I don't entirly agree with the Anti-trust thing, I mean if America can allow murders to run rabid, crazies to mass murder 10+ people and put them back on the street, allow police officers to beat up people for enjoyment. I think congress can overlook a simple little thing like Anti-trust. Besides with half of America on drugs I really don't think anyone is going to notice. At least this is what is printed in the Japanese news, that an average Japanese will read. Will..... ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 91 19:55:29 GMT From: pasteur!agate!bionet!uwm.edu!caen!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!aplcen!boingo.me d.jhu.edu!haven.umd.edu!cs.wvu.wvnet.edu!cerc.wvu.wvnet.edu!cathedral!kannan@ ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (R. Kannan) Subject: FACE on MARS -- Request for info... Hello there Recently I have heard numerous times that some Mars mission actually found evidence of some form of skillful habitants. I am told that there are 1. pyramids like in Egypt but with the twist that the base is pentagonal. 2. formations that resembles a face. 3. the ruins of a town .... I have been trying to get hold of an OMNI issue which covers this material. So far not much luck. I have not read this weeks LIFE taboid that talks about LIFE On MARS. Thus I would appreciate any information you might have on this topic. Thank you ... Other: The notion that Earth is the only place where life exists is quite a bit strange. There is no definitive proof to challenge this notion. So we live without a resolution ... To the mind that beleives in LIFE other than EARTHLING ...the mere probabilistic stmt. that "There exists a finite non-zero probability that in ...." is not enough. The netter's knowledge may help me in this regard .... Thank you very much USPOST R.Kannan Drawer 2000 CERC, West Virginia University, Morgantown, WV 26505 Phone 304-293-7536 Fax 304-293-7541 E-mail kannan@cerc.wvu.wvnet.edu ---kannan ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 91 00:56:24 GMT From: mips!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!mvk@decwrl.dec.com (Michael V. Kent) Subject: Re: Galileo status reports In article <12049@ptolemy-ri.ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov> glass@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov (J ay Glass) writes: > >*If* these attempts are unsuccessful, it follows that bandwidth will be >*very* limited from Jupiter using only the low-gain antenna (about 10 bps >at that range to Earth). This wouldn't prevent data recording and relay >from the probe, but would seriously affect imaging, etc. from the Galileo >orbiter. In a worst-case scenario, I have heard suggestions floated of >launching a communications relay in a direct trajectory to Jupiter in >order to "catch up" with Galileo and make mission objectives reachable >using the low-gain antenna. That is an interesting idea. If anyone knows any more about this, please say something. Is there any way to alter the VEEGA trajectory in such a way as to bring it back to Earth at a low enough velocity to drop it into Earth orbit for repair? I realize it probably wouldn't get back until 1998 if it's even possible, but we could then retrieve it, fix it, and re-launch. -- Michael Kent mvk@itsgw.rpi.edu McDonnell Douglas Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute St. Louis, Missouri Troy, New York Apple II Forever! ------------------------------ ReSent-Message-ID: Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Apr 91 15:12:40 EDT Resent-From: Tommy Mac <18084TM@msu.edu> Resent-To: space+@andrew.cmu.edu Date: Tue, 23 Apr 91 01:58:56 EDT Reply-To: space+%ANDREW.CMU.EDU@msu.edu From: space-request+%ANDREW.CMU.EDU%CARNEGIE.BITNET@msu.edu Subject: SPACE Digest V13 #442 Comments: To: space+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU To: david polito <15432DJP@MSU.BITNET>, Tom McWilliams <18084TM@MSU.BITNET> Re: r101 & R100's >> OK-- What in the world is R100 and or R101, Can you give any >> references where one could read up on them. (Stuff describing r100 + R101's deleted) >> I don't wish to flame anyone here but suggesting that *WE* read >> something about something without the least reference as to what it >> is or where to even find references to it is, IMHO, impolite at the >> least. >Jeez, do you want a reference for Spitfires and Hurricanes every time >someone mentions them, too? Remind me never to talk fighters if >you're in the room. R100 and R101 are just about as well known. ^^^^^^^^^^ I don't wish to flame anyone either; but you're wrong. I know of Spitfires, Mustangs, Hellcats, Bearcats, Corsairs, Skyhawks, Migs Tomcats, etc., etc., etc., as well as tons of civilian craft, but I ain't never heard of R100 or R101 before you mentioned them. Just because YOU know them as well does not mean they are as well known. Tommy Mac 18084tm@msu Acknowledge-To: <18084TM@MSU> ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V13 #448 ******************* ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V13 #452 ******************* ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V13 #460 *******************