Return-path: X-Andrew-Authenticated-as: 7997;andrew.cmu.edu;Ted Anderson Received: from hogtown.andrew.cmu.edu via trymail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl@andrew.cmu.edu (->+dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl) (->ota+space.digests) ID ; Mon, 15 Apr 91 01:36:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Precedence: junk Reply-To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU From: space-request+@Andrew.CMU.EDU To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU Date: Mon, 15 Apr 91 01:36:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SPACE Digest V13 #408 SPACE Digest Volume 13 : Issue 408 Today's Topics: Face on Mars Marshall Space Flight Center Re: Laser launchers Nick Szabo admits NASA can do something right. Film at 11. Re: Nick Szabo admits NASA can do something right. Film at 11. Re: Vacuum NASA Prediction Bulletins, Part 2 Administrivia: Submissions to the SPACE Digest/sci.space should be mailed to space+@andrew.cmu.edu. Other mail, esp. [un]subscription requests, should be sent to space-request+@andrew.cmu.edu, or, if urgent, to tm2b+@andrew.cmu.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Apr 91 04:05:00 GMT From: van-bc!ubc-cs!alberta!herald.usask.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!bison!sys6626!draco!swrdpnt!ford@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Scott Young ) Subject: Face on Mars Greetings, all! I've been following the discussion on the Face issue, and have a few questions. First, can someone post a list of references that they may know of? Someone mentioned both a book and a videotape. Second, I can't help but wondering what the real point of this discussion is. Are you going about a scientific discussion as to the possible origins of the Martian feature that looks like a face, or is it merely another round of the "little-green-men" supporters versus the "we're-all-alone" group? If the former, I'm interested; if the later, please move it to sci.alien.visitors, where they have a similar "discussion" going. Talk to you elsewhen... Scott Young (8-0 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Reply to: ford%swrdpnt.bison.mb.ca@niven.ccu.umanitoba.ca ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 91 17:21:47 GMT From: ncrcom!ncratl!gedwards@uunet.uu.net (Gordon Edwards) Subject: Marshall Space Flight Center Anyone know what the rates are for tours/visits to the Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama? Do reservations need to be made? If so, how early? Thanks -- ============================================================================= Gordon Edwards, N4VPH | "Nothing Unreal Exists" NCR Engineering & Manufacturing | gedwards@ncratl.atlantaga.ncr.com | Kiri-Kin-Tha's First Law of Metaphysics ------------------------------ Date: 11 Apr 91 06:01:53 GMT From: unisoft!fai!sequent!crg5!szabo@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Nick Szabo) Subject: Re: Laser launchers In article <2706@ke4zv.UUCP> gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman) writes: >...Lasers in general >are very inefficient with less than ten percent of their input power delivered >as usable energy in the beam. It would take at least 100 times >as much fuel to power such a laser as would be required by a chemical >rocket to launch the same payload. Wow. Let's start from the top: * Rocket fuel is primarily used to lift rocket fuel, not payload. Given this, rocket fuel turns out to be much less than 10% efficient. Laser launch will use less fuel than chem launch of the equivalent payload, not your fantastic factor of 100. * The laser fuel is stored on the ground, in a convenient, cheap tank or capacitor (depending on the kind of laser), not in a fragile, aerodynamic, high-tolerance, throw-away structure. This makes all the difference in the world, as this tank and controlling this tank through flight is a major part of chem rocket launch costs and reliability problems. [Technology problems need to be solved for laser launch to work] No duh. That's why I am calling for R&D funding here. It's no wonder that a launch technology that has gotten practically zero funding from the space establishment still has problems that need to be solved. These problems are considered tractable by the folks who have done the most high-power laser R&D, SDI. The basic rationale for funding the new launch technologies are the potential improvements to be made in the basic launch cost variables, like what fuel is used and where/how it is stored. Laser launch is far superior to the current art in these basics, therefore it should be researched. To argue that R&D problems remain, therefore we should not fund the R&D, shows a massive conservativism opposed to progress in reducing the costs of getting into space. >Another technique discussed here recently is the railgun. It is thought by most that the best EML for space launch is a coilgun, not railgun. You also ignore gas gun, tethers, and several other options that have been discussed as potentially delivering large improvements and needing more R&D funding. You mention NASP, which is also interesting, but the potential advance is probably not more than a factor of two, and unless the development costs can be brought down significantly it will not lower launch costs. If costs can be brought down, a comparable share, about 10%, of funding for hypervelocity and scramjet research is desirable. -- Nick Szabo szabo@sequent.com "If you want oil, drill lots of wells" -- J. Paul Getty The above opinions are my own and not related to those of any organization I may be affiliated with. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 91 15:49:46 GMT From: lib!thesis1.med.uth.tmc.edu@tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) Subject: Nick Szabo admits NASA can do something right. Film at 11. In article <21515@crg5.UUCP> szabo@crg5.UUCP (Nick Szabo) writes: >(about Magellan's early completion of its primary mission) >Good move, NASA! And congratulations to the Magellan team! Amazing. Nick, you've bashed NASA so hard, and so consistently, that I didn't know you were capable of seeing its successes, too. As a former Rockwell Shuttle Operations Company employee, your repeated flaming of all NASA does has grated on me to the point of unsubscribing from the group. Maybe there's hope for you yet. -- Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can jmaynard@thesis1.med.uth.tmc.edu | adequately be explained by stupidity. "X.400 is the mail system of the future, and I hope it stays that way." -- Erik E. Fair ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 91 17:38:46 GMT From: elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!wuarchive!rex!rouge!dlbres10@lll-winken.llnl.gov (Fraering Philip) Subject: Re: Nick Szabo admits NASA can do something right. Film at 11. In article <4962@lib.tmc.edu> jmaynard@thesis1.med.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes: >Amazing. Nick, you've bashed NASA so hard, and so consistently, that I didn't >know you were capable of seeing its successes, too. >As a former Rockwell Shuttle Operations Company employee, your repeated >flaming of all NASA does has grated on me to the point of unsubscribing from >the group. Maybe there's hope for you yet. -- >Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can >jmaynard@thesis1.med.uth.tmc.edu | adequately be explained by stupidity. 1. Nick Szabo is a former employee of JPL, which (to say the least) has strong NASA ties. 2. As a student in physics looking at possible career choices, do you know what the state of the Space Shuttle program, and NASA's insistance on keeping a great deal of its eggs in that extremely expensive and fragile basket, has done to the willingness of me and hundreds like me to want to do something else, like change majors to Philosophy, since as technical people we won't be able to do anything but take a minor part in the next big Quark-barrel megafailure that gets assigned to us by Capitol Hill? I have a close friend who is working on building Space Station telling me that a career in teaching would be much less of a dead end than what he and tens of thousands like him are doing on Freedom, and which they would change if they had the Freedom to... Appropriate disclaimers, whatever a disclaimer is, apply. -- Phil Fraering dlbres10@pc.usl.edu "The reserve of modern assertions is sometimes pushed to extermes, in which the fear of being contradicted leads the writer to strip himself of almost all sense and meaning." - Winston Churchill, _The Birth of Britian_ "X-rays are a hoax." - Lord Kelvin ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 91 06:36:44 GMT From: usc!rpi!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!utzoo!henry@apple.com (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Vacuum In article <1991Apr14.033415.7504@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> ejbehr@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (Eric Behr) writes: >A discussion provoked in part by a scene in 2001 is raging in another >newsgroup; namely, how long can a human being live following a rapid >decompression like that? ... Argh. Now *this* should go in our Frequently Asked Questions list... My canned answer: If you *don't* try to hold your breath, exposure to space for half a minute or so is unlikely to produce permanent injury. Holding your breath is likely to damage your lungs, something scuba divers have to watch out for when ascending, and you'll have eardrum trouble if your Eustachian tubes are badly plugged up, but theory predicts -- and animal experiments confirm -- that otherwise, exposure to vacuum causes no immediate injury. You do not explode. Your blood does not boil. You do not freeze. You do not instantly lose consciousness. Various minor problems (sunburn, possibly "the bends", certainly some [mild, reversible, painless] swelling of skin and underlying tissue) start after ten seconds or so. At some point you lose consciousness from lack of oxygen. Injuries accumulate. After perhaps one or two minutes, you're dying. The limits are not really known. -- And the bean-counter replied, | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology "beans are more important". | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 91 06:33:33 GMT From: udecc.engr.udayton.edu!blackbird.afit.af.mil!tkelso@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (TS Kelso) Subject: NASA Prediction Bulletins, Part 2 The most current orbital elements from the NASA Prediction Bulletins are carried on the Celestial BBS, (513) 427-0674, and are updated several times weekly. Documentation and tracking software are also available on this system. As a service to the satellite user community, the most current of these elements are uploaded weekly to sci.space. This week's elements are provided below. The Celestial BBS may be accessed 24 hours/day at 300, 1200, or 2400 baud using 8 data bits, 1 stop bit, no parity. - Current NASA Prediction Bulletins #834b - GPS BII-03 1 20185U 89 64 A 91 57.34599602 .00000016 00000-0 99999-4 0 1766 2 20185 54.8906 188.1900 0021289 164.8064 195.2144 2.00568043 11161 GPS BII-04 1 20302U 89 85 A 91 41.91577973 -.00000024 00000-0 99999-4 0 1785 2 20302 54.4598 307.3315 0032510 329.9999 29.8633 2.00556091 9656 Meteor 3-3 1 20305U 89 86 A 91 97.77461293 .00000043 00000-0 99999-4 0 3312 2 20305 82.5534 10.2239 0016199 317.8402 42.1537 13.15945690 69692 COBE 1 20322U 89 89 A 91100.96981821 .00000510 00000-0 35075-3 0 2686 2 20322 99.0193 113.4830 0008365 263.5834 96.4392 14.03038823 71244 Kvant-2 1 20335U 89 93 A 91101.59364967 .00075264 00000-0 70274-3 0 6302 2 20335 51.6194 265.1602 0013187 167.6725 192.3980 15.66514420 78390 GPS BII-05 1 20361U 89 97 A 91 94.27896796 .00000013 00000-0 99999-4 0 1368 2 20361 55.0316 128.8202 0062922 60.9080 299.7837 2.00558030 188 SPOT 2 1 20436U 90 5 A 91 97.70440624 .00001008 00000-0 49108-3 0 5116 2 20436 98.6980 172.9302 0000744 108.6942 251.4289 14.20031447 62540 UO-14 1 20437U 90 5 B 91102.19987967 .00001197 00000-0 48882-3 0 3275 2 20437 98.6689 182.0325 0011166 5.6581 354.4337 14.29044588 63569 UO-15 1 20438U 90 5 C 91102.21837641 .00000776 00000-0 32476-3 0 2051 2 20438 98.6748 181.9723 0010211 5.5949 354.5319 14.28649698 63555 PACSAT 1 20439U 90 5 D 91102.23899255 .00001191 00000-0 48525-3 0 2192 2 20439 98.6743 182.3695 0011900 8.1550 351.9729 14.29135378 63571 DO-17 1 20440U 90 5 E 91102.22307942 .00001295 00000-0 52544-3 0 2180 2 20440 98.6742 182.3927 0011905 9.4054 350.7186 14.29212936 63578 WO-18 1 20441U 90 5 F 91 98.62500630 .00001030 00000-0 42067-3 0 2173 2 20441 98.6723 178.8625 0012888 16.0879 344.0710 14.29256413 63064 LO-19 1 20442U 90 5 G 91 98.67315919 .00000948 00000-0 38790-3 0 2190 2 20442 98.6722 178.9615 0012935 16.0300 344.1292 14.29331789 63073 GPS BII-06 1 20452U 90 8 A 91 67.75229359 .00000004 00000-0 99999-4 0 1530 2 20452 54.3982 245.2075 0046174 52.4825 307.8626 2.00554625 8154 MOS-1B 1 20478U 90 13 A 91 95.69150984 .00000394 00000-0 31838-3 0 5280 2 20478 99.1527 169.1776 0000720 59.0492 301.0717 13.94850473 58917 DEBUT 1 20479U 90 13 B 91 93.91871044 .00000043 00000-0 14529-3 0 1905 2 20479 99.0237 90.1908 0541434 109.7385 256.2927 12.83174670 54039 FO-20 1 20480U 90 13 C 91 95.95061253 .00000128 00000-0 33559-3 0 1847 2 20480 99.0234 91.8358 0541770 105.2185 260.9466 12.83183119 54293 MOS-1B R/B 1 20491U 90 13 D 91 96.04118310 -.00000213 00000-0 -37598-3 0 2134 2 20491 99.0208 103.7447 0471182 64.7603 300.1536 13.02808483 54533 LACE 1 20496U 90 15 A 91 97.43419460 .00013694 00000-0 71044-3 0 4899 2 20496 43.0944 140.9475 0018038 38.3709 321.8413 15.15884051 63163 RME 1 20497U 90 15 B 91 96.49387210 .00030575 00000-0 60476-3 0 5190 2 20497 43.1018 51.7371 0018128 120.8092 239.4570 15.46361495 64067 Nadezhda 2 1 20508U 90 17 A 91 97.29675364 .00000434 00000-0 45428-3 0 2697 2 20508 82.9551 203.0288 0043520 247.6854 111.9587 13.73297917 55371 OKEAN 2 1 20510U 90 18 A 91 97.99925432 .00005586 00000-0 83073-3 0 4594 2 20510 82.5278 185.9763 0020726 37.1833 323.0808 14.74681481 59498 INTELSAT-6 1 20523U 90 21 A 91 91.55355126 -.00000992 00000-0 -77177-4 0 4503 2 20523 28.3374 172.8868 0015279 28.8362 331.3048 15.03589821 57875 GPS BII-07 1 20533U 90 25 A 91102.06551073 -.00000034 00000-0 99999-4 0 1527 2 20533 55.1901 3.8784 0034818 96.0580 264.3744 2.00567840 7614 PegSat 1 20546U 90 28 A 91102.20792239 .00026317 00000-0 13968-2 0 4952 2 20546 94.1016 14.9865 0126420 332.6081 26.9635 15.08529582 55018 HST 1 20580U 91 96.43773098 .00007170 00000-0 76506-3 0 4044 2 20580 28.4694 180.9716 0005316 285.1837 74.8140 14.87108812 51629 Glonass 44 1 20619U 90 45 A 91 97.39076740 -.00000018 00000-0 99999-5 0 4319 2 20619 65.0569 28.8524 0022275 218.2250 141.6307 2.13102992 6892 Glonass 45 1 20620U 90 45 B 91 97.03935553 -.00000018 00000-0 99999-4 0 4485 2 20620 65.0431 28.8656 0008206 24.2136 335.8244 2.13103138 6894 Glonass 46 1 20621U 90 45 C 91 97.09820381 -.00000018 00000-0 99999-4 0 3843 2 20621 65.0699 28.8740 0012391 210.2386 149.6945 2.13102649 6894 Kristall 1 20635U 91 99.80729406 0.00074471 70274-3 0 4282 2 20635 51.6006 274.2342 0013446 161.1465 198.9329 15.66250670 48991 ROSAT 1 20638U 90 49 A 91102.26332644 .00008108 00000-0 65562-3 0 2317 2 20638 52.9874 161.3853 0015293 152.9726 207.2084 15.00506700 47137 Meteor 2-19 1 20670U 90 57 A 91 97.99738135 .00000296 00000-0 25671-3 0 1675 2 20670 82.5445 54.6394 0015199 175.3570 184.7737 13.83937039 39295 CRRES 1 20712U 90 65 A 91 93.82492060 -.00017334 00000-0 -23461-1 0 1927 2 20712 17.9814 302.5341 7110348 33.7866 356.1522 2.44039993 6169 GPS BII-08 1 20724U 90 68 A 91 55.54435681 .00000016 00000-0 99999-4 0 845 2 20724 54.6996 186.1883 0096447 122.6748 238.2165 2.00563932 4103 Feng Yun1-2 1 20788U 90 81 A 91 96.95367471 .00000451 00000-0 32324-3 0 1292 2 20788 98.9462 131.9327 0015324 18.7930 341.3802 14.01105772 30231 Meteor 2-20 1 20826U 90 86 A 91 98.05674273 .00000560 00000-0 49983-3 0 1238 2 20826 82.5323 353.6736 0014884 73.0832 287.1957 13.83324362 26512 GPS BII-09 1 20830U 90 88 A 91 92.47526014 .00000012 00000-0 99999-4 0 890 2 20830 54.9154 127.0815 0074356 115.5295 245.3041 2.00568450 3923 GPS BII-10 1 20959U 90103 A 91 76.43064871 .00000017 00000-0 99999-4 0 262 2 20959 54.9591 186.9802 0045402 213.8318 146.2541 2.00567535 2193 DMSP B5D2-5 1 20978U 90105 A 91 97.93473245 .00001872 00000-0 70605-3 0 1063 2 20978 98.8442 133.5330 0080772 345.9981 13.8962 14.30818501 18205 Soyuz TM-11 1 20981U 91 99.80729835 0.00074490 70274-3 0 1336 2 20981 51.6086 274.2302 0013829 159.0624 201.0336 15.66249847 20108 Glonass 47 1 21006U 90110 A 91 97.60655418 .00000020 00000-0 99999-4 0 1129 2 21006 64.8356 148.3964 0061895 186.7478 173.2348 2.13102060 2586 Glonass 48 1 21007U 90110 B 91 97.78325764 .00000020 00000-0 99999-4 0 1295 2 21007 64.8538 148.4196 0039269 181.3305 178.7296 2.13100257 2585 Glonass 49 1 21008U 90110 C 91 97.66607886 .00000020 00000-0 99999-4 0 1088 2 21008 64.8419 148.4123 0011127 289.2455 70.7082 2.13100318 2583 INFORMTR-1 1 21087U 91 6 A 91 97.92087855 .00000279 00000-0 28284-3 0 293 2 21087 82.9416 285.7220 0036823 93.3127 267.2243 13.74365046 9377 Cosmos 2123 1 21089U 91 7 A 91 97.63499873 .00000284 00000-0 29183-3 0 319 2 21089 82.9281 156.4059 0030239 112.8985 247.5358 13.73884127 8458 MOP-2 1 21140U 91 15 B 91 97.28897163 .00000004 00000-0 99999-4 0 325 2 21140 1.1414 297.0546 0002168 14.4682 344.4133 1.00295186 156 INMARSAT 2 1 21149U 91 18 A 91 92.28410505 .00000039 00000-0 99999-4 0 163 2 21149 2.6899 295.7828 0005580 334.1341 25.3237 1.00260191 283 Nadezhda 3 1 21152U 91 19 A 91 98.02659369 .00000006 00000-0 00000 0 0 174 2 21152 82.9251 110.8550 0040705 217.7027 142.1311 13.73324787 3609 Progress M7 1 21188U 91100.82811571 0.00075747 70999-3 0 463 2 21188 51.6062 269.0490 0013291 163.9149 196.2190 15.66411972 3509 Cosmos 2137 1 21190U 91 98.96435560 0.00019443 61617-3 0 230 2 21190 65.8481 310.9095 0034638 330.7859 29.1352 15.32192767 3124 1991 021B 1 21191U 91100.11982342 0.00038570 11489-2 0 397 2 21191 65.8356 307.0670 0033334 341.7251 18.2699 15.33937275 3307 Molniya3-40 1 21196U 91100.38301450 -.00000184 -16418-3 0 239 2 21196 62.8635 311.2283 7432023 280.5169 10.6790 2.00620824 392 1991 022D 1 21199U 91 99.07268553 -.00000297 65766-3 0 101 2 21199 62.8604 311.2312 7374935 280.7573 10.9850 2.05642736 371 1991 014E 1 21201U 91 14 E 91 97.49516410 .00003466 00000-0 16263-2 0 100 2 21201 47.4901 238.4645 7230138 9.8658 358.7815 2.33011379 911 1991 014F 1 21202U 91 14 F 91 97.40565262 .00010328 00000-0 16535-2 0 74 2 21202 47.4234 238.3029 7246009 10.0353 359.0600 2.33788539 911 Cosmos 2138 1 21203U 91101.18940487 0.00927270 28397-4 33873-3 0 405 2 21203 67.1430 323.7883 0091478 61.6084 299.4720 16.14422846 2518 1991 023B 1 21204U 91 23 B 91 87.84647494 .18280002 30103-4 33209-3 0 134 2 21204 67.1627 8.6511 0046059 91.9560 269.0962 16.41670542 375 Almaz-1 1 21213U 91100.64219725 0.00197238 17998-4 33650-3 0 254 2 21213 72.7020 76.2107 0010208 245.3491 114.7458 16.02322340 1612 Cosmos 2139 1 21216U 91100.03443680 -.00000018 10000-3 0 96 2 21216 64.7970 28.9265 0003240 245.5182 114.4609 2.12987661 136 Cosmos 2140 1 21217U 91100.97419384 -.00000018 10000-3 0 106 2 21217 64.7996 28.8761 0005368 253.7216 106.2313 2.12959245 157 Cosmos 2141 1 21218U 91100.97412860 -.00000018 10000-3 0 110 2 21218 64.7924 28.8879 0022889 254.8745 104.8147 2.13528633 158 Anik E-2 1 21222U 91100.08787338 -.00000055 10000-3 0 89 2 21222 0.2509 356.1519 1290704 180.1899 183.1289 1.20450068 48 1991 026B 1 21223U 91 26 B 91 96.09063256 -.00192289 00000-0 -60963 0 0 58 2 21223 4.2666 356.7781 7229601 180.9322 174.1422 2.25881426 26 GRO 1 21225U 91100.12772834 -.00002843 -76861-4 0 88 2 21225 28.4638 207.4983 0010048 320.2781 39.7107 15.37997329 703 -- Dr TS Kelso Assistant Professor of Space Operations tkelso@blackbird.afit.af.mil Air Force Institute of Technology ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V13 #408 *******************