Return-path: X-Andrew-Authenticated-as: 7997;andrew.cmu.edu;Ted Anderson Received: from hogtown.andrew.cmu.edu via trymail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl@andrew.cmu.edu (->+dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl) (->ota+space.digests) ID ; Sat, 16 Feb 91 01:37:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Precedence: junk Reply-To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU From: space-request+@Andrew.CMU.EDU To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU Date: Sat, 16 Feb 91 01:36:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: SPACE Digest V13 #156 SPACE Digest Volume 13 : Issue 156 Today's Topics: SPACE Digest V13 #139 ET uses (was Re: confusion regarding "Firm Fred Decisions") Re:Technology Transfer Info Request COPUOS CRRES altazimuths Administrivia: Submissions to the SPACE Digest/sci.space should be mailed to space+@andrew.cmu.edu. Other mail, esp. [un]subscription requests, should be sent to space-request+@andrew.cmu.edu, or, if urgent, to tm2b+@andrew.cmu.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Return-path: X-Andrew-Authenticated-as: 0;andrew.cmu.edu;Network-Mail Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 91 17:20:50 EST Date: Sat, 9 Feb 91 02:48:35 EST Resent-From: Tommy Mac <18084TM%MSU.BITNET@BITNET.CC.CMU.EDU> From: space-request+%ANDREW.CMU.EDU@BITNET.CC.CMU.EDU Subject: SPACE Digest V13 #139 Sender: space-request+%ANDREW.CMU.EDU@BITNET.CC.CMU.EDU Resent-To: space+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU To: david polito <15432DJP@MSU.BITNET>, Tom McWilliams <18084TM@MSU.BITNET> Reply-To: space+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU Comments: To: space+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU >Subject: Re: Humanities Space Industry Nick Szabo Writes: >I challenge anybody on the net to present a business plan -- the market >plan, R&D plan, projected financing and cash flows will suffice -- for >any one of the following: >* space station >* lunar base >* Martian base >using current launch costs, historical R&D costs for manned >space capsules, space-qualified machinery, etc. Fact is, nobody >on this net or anywhere else on this planet can present a sound >business plan that is within even two orders of magnitude in cost >to being profitable. Person: Gerald K. O'neill , of, I think, Princeton U. Reference: HIGH FRONTIER Fact is, this guy came up woth a plan for SPS, involving a mass-driver on the moon, solar powered metal-processing in earth-orbit, and habitation colonies on the order of km's in size, to create a infrastructure that basically would provide electricity for the entire planet. (Or would make our civilization autotrophic instead of heterotrophic, if you believe in gaia) He completely ignored tourism,metals,information, and science possibilities. For an investment of 400 billion 1972 $, over twenty years, he had a return of 3 trillion at the end of that time (after debt service). In other words, if you assume 5% inflation, he would have made an investor of $100, after twenty years, $3500. That's a return of 17% per year, far better than most business ventures. He proposed it originally (I believe) in 1969. That means his costs were based on Saturn V, not the Shuttle ( c/ see note below) Also, these numbers were based on selling electricity at 2 or 3 pennies per killowatt/hour. You probably pay between 10 and 15 cents/kllowatt/hour. Sorry. Nick. The fact is, a decent, safe, profitable space infrastructure will cost about as much as our currrent air-travel infrastructure. However, no private investor will threaten his job by starting up the bootstrapping req'd to get the ball rolling until there is some way to measure the risk, and judge it acceptable. At current launch prices, with current safety considerations, and current lack of experience, 17% just isn't good enough. Maybe if Galileo discovers some marketable material....or maybe, unbeknownst to anyone, magellan has dropped a starting colony of Blue-green algae, which will begin converting Venus' atmosphere to O2.... Fun to dream, but meanwhile, we'll have to depend on the Gov. That's just how air travel got started. People didn't believe that planes were safe. So, the feds awarded (name forgotten) a mail contract. Thus was born the industry that eventually became Federal Express. The book ENTREPENEURS will give you details Now, for fifty bucks (day's labor from my point of view) I can get to Chicago see my family in under an hour (I'm near Lansing, MI) (/c note re; shuttle prices) The main reason that no one wants to invest in space in this country is the cost of launching. Sadly, it's regional. I don't know the magazine (I think it's Newsweek), but the title of the article is BIG DUMB BOOSTERS. Look it up in the reader's guide. Basically, the jist of the article is that the shuttle costs about 25 time more than expendable rockets, per kilogram. The problem is not the concept, but our creation. We used state-of-the art materials that cost too much to maintain, and aren't sturdy enough to stand up to recycling. And why would those contracters want to change anything, when expensive, new materials keep those big, juicy gov. contracts? Tommy Mac "Gaia is not an organism, for it has not reproduced" -critic of the gaia hypothesis "yet" -creator of the Gaia Hypothesis "So, if we move into space, then we must be Gaia's sex organs" -me, supporter of the Gaia Hypothesis Acknowledge-To: <18084TM@MSU> ------------------------------ Return-path: X-Andrew-Authenticated-as: 0;andrew.cmu.edu;Network-Mail Date: 13 Feb 91 05:09:37 GMT From: borg!pooh!leech@mcnc.org (Jonathan Leech) Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill Subject: ET uses (was Re: confusion regarding "Firm Fred Decisions") References: <9068@hub.ucsb.edu> Sender: space-request@andrew.cmu.edu To: space@andrew.cmu.edu In article <9068@hub.ucsb.edu>, 3001crad@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (Charles Frank Radley) writes: |> The External Tank idea is seriously oversold. An alternative use for ETs which I find attractive is as reaction mass for mass-driver propelled craft (suggested by folks at the Space Studies Institute). I could dig up a few more details on this if there's interest. -- Jon Leech (leech@cs.unc.edu) __@/ ``One objective of the Lunar GetAway Special proposal was to *finally* prove that solar-ion rockets are a workable way to propel spacecraft, so that space-probe propulsion can be brought into the 1970s'' - Henry Spencer ------------------------------ Return-path: X-Andrew-Authenticated-as: 0;andrew.cmu.edu;Network-Mail Date: 14 Feb 91 13:52:44 GMT From: agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!peregrine!sei_4.lerc.nasa.gov!dbm0000@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Dave McKissock) Organization: sei Subject: Re:Technology Transfer Info Request Sender: space-request@andrew.cmu.edu To: space@andrew.cmu.edu In article <1264@h.cs.wvu.wvnet.edu>, jdm@cs.wvu.wvnet.edu (James D Mooney) asks ... > This is a request for my daughter who is doing an advanced high school >project on technology benefits from space, i.e., how has the space program >helped improve life on earth? I believe you would find the publication "Spinoff" useful. NASA publishes one each year (hence you would want the 1990 version). The document number is NP-138. The 1990 edition is 156 pages. To quote from the 1990 edition: " This publication is intended to foster that aim [broaden & accelerate the technology transfer proces] by heigtening awareness of the NASA technology available for transfer and its potential for benefit. Spinoff 1990 is organized in three main sections: Section 1 outlines NASA's mainline effort, the major programs that generate new technology and therefore replenish and expand the bank of knowledge available for transfer. Section 2, the focal point of this volume, contains a representative sampling of spinoff products that resulted from secondary application of technology originally developed to meet mainline goals. Section 3 describes the various mechanisms NASA employs to stimulate technology transfer and lists, in an appendix, contact sources for further information about the Technology Utilization Program" The appendix says: "For information of a general nature about the Technology Utilization program, address inquiries to the Manager, Technology Utilization Office, NASA Scientific and Technical Information Facility, Post Office Box 8757, Baltimore, Maryland 21240." Have you tried the "Industrial Applications Center Affiliate" at your University? The appendix lists a Mr. Donald F. Butcher, President, The Software Valley Association, c/o Department of Statistics & Computer Science, 311 Knapp Hall, University of West Virginia, Morgantown West Virginia 26056, Phone: (304), 293-3607? According to the appendix, Mr. Butcher is supposed to "provide access to NASA's technology transfer network." Finally, you could try contacting the "Technology Utilization Officer" here at LeRC. The address is NASA Lewis Research Center 21000 Brookpark Rd Cleveland, Ohio, 44135 Technology Utilization Officer: Anthony F. Ratajczak Mail Stop 7-3 Phone: (216) 433-5567 >Jim Mooney Dept. of Stat. & Computer Science >(304) 293-3607 West Virginia University > Morgantown, WV 26506 -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave McKissock sakissoc@mars.lerc.nasa.gov NASA Lewis Research Center, Cleveland Ohio. Opinions expressed herein probably bear absolutely no resemblance to the official NASA position. ------------------------------ Return-path: X-Andrew-Authenticated-as: 0;andrew.cmu.edu;Network-Mail Date: 11 Feb 91 16:16:22 GMT From: ogicse!emory!athena.cs.uga.edu!millians@decwrl.dec.com (David W. Millians) Organization: University of Georgia, Athens Subject: COPUOS Sender: space-request@andrew.cmu.edu To: space@andrew.cmu.edu I've been following discussion for a while, so I know this hasn't poppped up: Does anybody know the status of the UN committee on the peaceful uses of outer space? Reason for asking: I'm going to chair said topic at an upcoming Model UN, and I've got to get a book together. I'm well versed in the subjects of space (Dad worked on Gemini and Apollo, and I grew up on missile bases) but I need a kickstart about where to start finding COPUOS information. I hope this doesn't offend anybody (it's causing much disc. in other groups) but I would appreciate E-mail respoinses, and I will summarize to the group. I read this every day, but I can't imagine too much interest in the subject for other patrons of the group. Additionally, when I've got my guide together, I'll summarize MY info about where to get information. Thanks in advance, o'course. I appreciate it. -- David W. Millians millians@athena.cs.uga.edu University of Georgia, Athens GA USA. "What exactly is UNIX, Mr. IFF?" "It is a P2C2E, thief Haroun, on a M2C2D." (Apologies to Salman Rushdie) I guess all opinions are mine and only mine. ------------------------------ Return-path: X-Andrew-Authenticated-as: 0;andrew.cmu.edu;Network-Mail Date: 13 Feb 91 01:39:23 GMT From: usc!wuarchive!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!aplcen!warper.jhuapl.edu!sterner@ucsd.edu (Ray Sterner) Organization: Johns Hopkins University Subject: CRRES altazimuths Sender: space-request@andrew.cmu.edu To: space@andrew.cmu.edu Using the orbital positions posted to the net by Patricia Reiff I am providing the CRRES altazimuths for the first 3 of the possible release times for Wednesday night, 13 Feb (14 Feb UT). If the release comes at a later time perhaps you can extrapolate the numbers given here, I haven't really tested that possibility, you're on your own. At least call the hotline closer to the release time for the latest update. Sorry this can't be pinned down any better but if we are lucky this might give another chance to see a release. This program was written back in the days when there were 2 possible times given, so the alternate time is the next possible release time in a series starting at 14 Feb 4:30 UT until 14 Feb 11:00 in steps of 30 minutes. I would be interested in hearing how good (or bad) the RA and Dec estimates turn out to be. Remember they are for the given location and will vary due to parallax for observers at different locations, are the differences about what would be expected for your location? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Combined Release and Radiation Effects Satellite (CRRES) Marshall Space Flight Center hotline: 205-544-5356. Values are for a spherical earth with no atmospheric refraction. Distances in km, angles in degrees. Universal time is given. =========================== TIME NUMBER 1 ================================ Large barium or lithium release at 04:30:00 14 Feb 1991 UT. Satellite altitude = 28691. Sub-satellite lat, long (deg) = 7.30 90.50 ***************************************************** * An alternate time is 04:59:59 14 Feb 1991 UT. * * Table below does NOT apply to the alternate time! * ***************************************************** City Satellite Name Lat Long Azi Alt Dist RA Dec Anchorage, AK 61.2 149.8 114.2 10.5 33340 06:19 -1.9 Atlanta, GA 33.8 84.4 193.4 57.3 29531 05:56 1.8 Bermuda, UK 32.3 65.8 228.0 49.2 29993 05:43 2.0 Chicago, IL 41.8 87.6 185.0 48.5 30039 05:59 0.4 Columbus, OH 40.0 83.0 193.6 49.9 29949 05:56 0.7 Dallas, TX 32.8 96.8 165.7 58.4 29476 06:05 2.0 Denver, CO 39.7 105.0 154.3 48.1 30062 06:10 0.7 Detroit, MI 42.4 83.2 192.5 47.2 30117 05:56 0.3 Edmonton, ALB 53.5 113.5 149.6 31.2 31338 06:11 -1.2 El Paso, TX 31.8 106.4 145.3 55.4 29629 06:12 2.1 Flagstaff, AZ 35.3 111.7 140.2 49.1 29996 06:15 1.5 Honolulu, HI 21.3 157.8 91.3 13.5 33023 06:39 3.7 London, UK 51.5 0.0 274.9 -5.0 35049 05:35 -0.9 Los Angeles, CA 34.0 118.3 129.9 45.7 30218 06:19 1.7 Mexico City, MEX 19.5 99.2 144.2 72.0 28947 06:08 4.6 Miami, FL 25.8 80.2 209.9 64.6 29199 05:52 3.3 Montreal, QUE 45.5 73.6 206.2 41.2 30535 05:51 -0.2 New York, NY 40.7 74.0 208.3 46.3 30180 05:50 0.6 Paris, FR 48.8 2.3 273.4 -3.8 34905 05:33 -0.6 Phoenix, AZ 33.5 112.0 138.0 50.5 29914 06:16 1.8 Pittsburgh, PA 40.4 80.0 198.6 48.7 30025 05:54 0.6 San Juan, PR 18.5 66.2 247.9 58.3 29479 05:41 4.7 Salt Lake City, UT 40.8 111.9 144.5 44.0 30337 06:14 0.6 San Francisco, CA 37.8 122.3 128.4 40.1 30621 06:21 1.0 Seattle, WA 47.6 122.3 135.7 32.7 31214 06:17 -0.5 St. Louis, MO 38.7 90.3 180.5 52.3 29807 06:00 0.9 Tucson, AZ 32.3 111.0 138.2 52.2 29810 06:15 2.0 Washington, DC 38.8 77.0 204.6 49.4 29979 05:52 0.9 Winnipeg, MAN 50.6 96.3 171.6 38.2 30766 06:04 -0.9 =========================== TIME NUMBER 2 ================================ Large barium or lithium release at 04:59:59 14 Feb 1991 UT. Satellite altitude = 30845. Sub-satellite lat, long (deg) = 5.70 92.90 ***************************************************** * An alternate time is 05:30:00 14 Feb 1991 UT. * * Table below does NOT apply to the alternate time! * ***************************************************** City Satellite Name Lat Long Azi Alt Dist RA Dec Anchorage, AK 61.2 149.8 117.2 10.7 35504 06:38 -3.1 Atlanta, GA 33.8 84.4 197.6 55.3 31804 06:15 0.3 Bermuda, UK 32.3 65.8 229.4 46.5 32338 06:04 0.5 Chicago, IL 41.8 87.6 188.9 46.8 32313 06:18 -1.0 Columbus, OH 40.0 83.0 197.2 48.0 32239 06:15 -0.7 Dallas, TX 32.8 96.8 171.5 57.4 31690 06:24 0.4 Denver, CO 39.7 105.0 159.1 47.6 32261 06:28 -0.7 Detroit, MI 42.4 83.2 196.0 45.4 32409 06:15 -1.1 Edmonton, ALB 53.5 113.5 153.1 30.8 33548 06:30 -2.4 El Paso, TX 31.8 106.4 151.3 55.4 31795 06:30 0.6 Flagstaff, AZ 35.3 111.7 145.3 49.4 32151 06:33 0.0 Honolulu, HI 21.3 157.8 93.8 15.9 34965 06:57 2.3 London, UK 51.5 0.0 275.8 -7.1 37472 05:57 -2.0 Los Angeles, CA 34.0 118.3 134.6 46.4 32340 06:37 0.2 Mexico City, MEX 19.5 99.2 155.3 71.9 31108 06:26 2.9 Miami, FL 25.8 80.2 213.4 61.9 31474 06:12 1.7 Montreal, QUE 45.5 73.6 208.7 39.2 32864 06:11 -1.5 New York, NY 40.7 74.0 211.0 44.1 32504 06:10 -0.8 Paris, FR 48.8 2.3 274.2 -5.9 37333 05:55 -1.7 Phoenix, AZ 33.5 112.0 143.3 50.8 32060 06:34 0.3 Pittsburgh, PA 40.4 80.0 201.8 46.6 32327 06:13 -0.8 San Juan, PR 18.5 66.2 247.2 55.4 31797 06:01 3.0 Salt Lake City, UT 40.8 111.9 149.0 44.0 32510 06:32 -0.8 San Francisco, CA 37.8 122.3 132.7 40.8 32742 06:38 -0.4 Seattle, WA 47.6 122.3 139.5 32.9 33375 06:36 -1.7 St. Louis, MO 38.7 90.3 184.8 50.7 32065 06:19 -0.5 Tucson, AZ 32.3 111.0 143.7 52.5 31957 06:33 0.5 Washington, DC 38.8 77.0 207.5 47.2 32290 06:11 -0.5 Winnipeg, MAN 50.6 96.3 175.2 37.1 33024 06:23 -2.1 =========================== TIME NUMBER 3 ================================ Large barium or lithium release at 05:30:00 14 Feb 1991 UT. Satellite altitude = 32353. Sub-satellite lat, long (deg) = 4.30 95.80 ***************************************************** * An alternate time is 06:00:00 14 Feb 1991 UT. * * Table below does NOT apply to the alternate time! * ***************************************************** City Satellite Name Lat Long Azi Alt Dist RA Dec Anchorage, AK 61.2 149.8 120.6 11.1 36997 06:55 -4.2 Atlanta, GA 33.8 84.4 202.3 53.0 33446 06:32 -1.1 Bermuda, UK 32.3 65.8 231.4 43.4 34067 06:21 -0.9 Chicago, IL 41.8 87.6 193.3 45.1 33950 06:35 -2.3 Columbus, OH 40.0 83.0 201.3 45.9 33895 06:32 -2.0 Dallas, TX 32.8 96.8 177.9 56.3 33263 06:40 -0.9 Denver, CO 39.7 105.0 164.4 47.2 33809 06:45 -2.0 Detroit, MI 42.4 83.2 200.0 43.4 34068 06:33 -2.3 Edmonton, ALB 53.5 113.5 157.2 30.5 35101 06:47 -3.6 El Paso, TX 31.8 106.4 157.8 55.4 33311 06:46 -0.8 Flagstaff, AZ 35.3 111.7 151.0 49.6 33651 06:49 -1.3 Honolulu, HI 21.3 157.8 96.5 18.6 36222 07:13 0.9 London, UK 51.5 0.0 277.2 -9.6 39278 06:16 -3.0 Los Angeles, CA 34.0 118.3 140.0 47.3 33801 06:53 -1.1 Mexico City, MEX 19.5 99.2 167.4 71.5 32630 06:42 1.4 Miami, FL 25.8 80.2 217.5 59.0 33125 06:29 0.2 Montreal, QUE 45.5 73.6 211.9 36.9 34564 06:28 -2.7 New York, NY 40.7 74.0 214.2 41.6 34201 06:27 -2.1 Paris, FR 48.8 2.3 275.4 -8.4 39147 06:15 -2.8 Phoenix, AZ 33.5 112.0 149.2 51.2 33553 06:50 -1.1 Pittsburgh, PA 40.4 80.0 205.6 44.4 33998 06:31 -2.1 San Juan, PR 18.5 66.2 247.5 51.9 33509 06:19 1.5 Salt Lake City, UT 40.8 111.9 154.1 44.0 34028 06:49 -2.1 San Francisco, CA 37.8 122.3 137.5 41.6 34199 06:55 -1.7 Seattle, WA 47.6 122.3 143.8 33.1 34873 06:52 -3.0 St. Louis, MO 38.7 90.3 189.7 49.1 33685 06:36 -1.8 Tucson, AZ 32.3 111.0 149.8 52.9 33450 06:49 -0.9 Washington, DC 38.8 77.0 211.1 44.8 33973 06:29 -1.8 Winnipeg, MAN 50.6 96.3 179.3 36.0 34635 06:40 -3.4 Ray Sterner sterner%str.decnet@warper.jhuapl.edu Johns Hopkins University North latitude 39.16 degrees. Applied Physics Laboratory West longitude 76.90 degrees. Laurel, MD 20723-6099 ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V13 #156 *******************