Return-path: X-Andrew-Authenticated-as: 7997;andrew.cmu.edu;Ted Anderson Received: from beak.andrew.cmu.edu via trymail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl@andrew.cmu.edu (->+dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl) (->ota+space.digests) ID ; Sun, 15 Apr 90 01:49:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Reply-To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU From: space-request+@Andrew.CMU.EDU To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU Date: Sun, 15 Apr 90 01:48:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SPACE Digest V11 #261 SPACE Digest Volume 11 : Issue 261 Today's Topics: Re: Fermi Paradox Re: Vandeburg Launch Schedules Re: Interstellar travel NASA Select - W.Pacific region ? Fermi Paradox ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 Apr 90 03:29:48 GMT From: samsung!cs.utexas.edu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo!henry@think.com (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Fermi Paradox In article <8868@pt.cs.cmu.edu> vac@sam.cs.cmu.edu (Vincent Cate) writes: >>so, in Fermi's words: "Where are they?". Why haven't we been visited? >>Why has native intelligence (ours) been able to develop undisturbed on a >>planet that has been ripe for colonization for a billion years or so? >>Why aren't the large engineering works of *really* advanced civilizations >>visible in the galaxy? > >What if there was some galaxy wide political organization that had set >aside our corner as sort of a nature reserve? In other words, it would not >allow any of the advanced civilizations to disturb us in any way. This still doesn't explain the other objections: lack of colonization and lack of visible engineering works. It's really rather hard to believe that a galactic government wouldn't allow exploitation of solar systems with no local intelligent life, and intelligent life here is quite recent. The galactic government would also have to hold together as a coherent entity with consistent policies for hundreds of millions of years with light-speed communications lags of tens of thousands of years between its parts, and have 100% effective enforcement. Possible, but really pushing it. -- With features like this, | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology who needs bugs? | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu ------------------------------ Date: 15 Apr 90 03:20:37 GMT From: ames.arc.nasa.gov!mike@ames.arc.nasa.gov (Mike Smithwick) Subject: Re: Vandeburg Launch Schedules In article <19621@boulder.Colorado.EDU> serre@boulder.Colorado.EDU (SERRE GLENN) writes: <>anyone know the likelyhood of being able to witness such launches? < harper@oravax.UUCP (Douglas Harper) writes: >What's always puzzled me about the Fermi Paradox is why it's considered >paradoxical. Since Fermi's argument is a strong one, it strongly >suggests that "what we know now", just isn't so. This is hardly >paradoxical... Of course it suggests that our current knowledge is inadequate -- but *which* current knowledge? The paradox is that two things we think we can make fair guesses about -- the incidence of intelligent life elsewhere in the galaxy, and the likelihood that such life would leave visible evidence that we should be able to see -- contradict each other. Either we are vastly overestimating the probability of intelligent life, or we are very seriously wrong about what an advanced civilization would do in the way of interstellar expansion. But which, and why? >So what if intelligent life is rare in the galaxy? Why not? Why not? Because by what we know now, it ought to be everywhere. This is like saying "so what if 2+2=5? why not?". (Well, okay, it's a bit less drastic than that, but you get my point, I hope...) If intelligent life is rare, something is *seriously* wrong with our theories on the subject. It would be comforting to know what. >I don't know about the rest of the human race, but I find the prospect >of an unpopulated galaxy for us to explore and populate to be >completely within reason, and very exhilarating besides. Personally, I'd postpone the exhilaration until we understand *why* the galaxy is unpopulated. One unpleasant group of ideas says that the galaxy is unpopulated because it is much more hostile to intelligent life than we think. If we've simply been lucky, great, but that doesn't mean we'll stay lucky. -- With features like this, | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology who needs bugs? | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu ------------------------------ Date: 15 Apr 90 14:15:36 GMT From: samsung!munnari.oz.au!csc!myb100@think.com Subject: NASA Select - W.Pacific region ? G'day y'all There was a posting a while back that NASA select was now being broadcast to the Pacific basin area via . Is this true, or was it just my imagination ? Our newssite has already wiped the article. If anyone could Email me / post the article again (with info on how to access the signal) I'd greatly appreciate it. Tanx heeps, Markus Buchhorn Mt Stromlo and Siding Spring Observatories, Canberra, Australia markus@mso.anu.oz.au -or- nssdca::psi%mssso::markus ------------------------------ Date: 15 Apr 90 01:48:45 GMT From: sam.cs.cmu.edu!vac@PT.CS.CMU.EDU (Vincent Cate) Subject: Fermi Paradox Henry: >To sum up *very* briefly, the Fermi Paradox is that interstellar flight at >substantial fractions of the speed of light doesn't seem too difficult for >a civilization not much older than ours, a single civilization can thereby >fill the entire galaxy in an eyeblink of geological time, and such >civilizations ought to be common in the galaxy by everything we know now... >so, in Fermi's words: "Where are they?". Why haven't we been visited? >Why has native intelligence (ours) been able to develop undisturbed on a >planet that has been ripe for colonization for a billion years or so? >Why aren't the large engineering works of *really* advanced civilizations >visible in the galaxy? What if there was some galaxy wide political organization that had set aside our corner as sort of a nature reserve? In other words, it would not allow any of the advanced civilizations to disturb us in any way. Such a government might go so far as to say advanced civilizations are only allowed in solar systems with other advanced civilizations or on non-stop trips between. This might be a real environmentalist government. Another excuse is that it is sort of like letting a chick peck its way out of its egg. If we are helped into the intersteller club we might not last as a separate culture (just be absorbed) and maybe the government does not want that. One problem with this is that which stars are nearby changes. Since it does not change too fast this might work. If the nature reserve is just our solar system, postulating some more advanced way to communicate than radio waves helps to explain why we have not heard our neighbors. This is not that hard to imagine. For example, use fiber for all ground based communication and lasers to go between spaceborn/airborn vehicles and ground to get really high bandwidth over many many links with no interference. Some really high frequency tight beam makes sense for communication. A government with big bad guns that claimed stray radio waves were pollution could probably keep "people" from generating them. A "cop" or two guarding each solar system could probably take care of things. You would not be able to sneek up on them since even at 1 g it takes a year to get up to C and if you head off toward a protected solar system, word would go out at C. Seems to me that you will probably take much longer than a year to get up to speed. Maybe space is not the "wild west" we think it will be. This is scary, -- Vince ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V11 #261 *******************