Return-path: X-Andrew-Authenticated-as: 7997;andrew.cmu.edu;Ted Anderson Received: from beak.andrew.cmu.edu via trymail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl@andrew.cmu.edu (->+dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl) (->ota+space.digests) ID ; Mon, 23 Oct 89 19:19:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Reply-To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU From: space-request+@Andrew.CMU.EDU To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU Date: Mon, 23 Oct 89 19:19:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SPACE Digest V10 #159 SPACE Digest Volume 10 : Issue 159 Today's Topics: Try thinking before stinking potential fall of GALILEO Re: Try thinking before stinking Face on Mars (not the one you think) Re: Geyser-like plume discovered on Neptune's moon Triton (Forwarded) Re: Enterprise Utilization An Idea International participation on Freedom Re: NASA Headline News for 10/04/89 (Forwarded) Re: Plutonium (was: South Florida Environmental Reader #12) Re: More whining about Galileo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Oct 89 02:59:07 GMT From: cr10+@andrew.cmu.edu (Christopher John Rapier) Subject: Try thinking before stinking Okay, first a couple of things. 1) I am an ardent supporter of space exploration, especially manned mission. 2) I am a liberal by most definitions of the word okay thats a couple of things. My involvement with the Christic Institute started with the reading of a graphic-docunovel entitled Brought to Light. It dealt with questionable American activity in central america and the role of the CIA in subversive and covert operations thoughout the world. Really good peice of work. Read it if you can. Gives an interesting (not nessecarily the last) viewpoint on what we've been doing. They also included a brief on The Christic Institute. They are a predominantly Catholic organization, they have a number of priests and nuns (reminds me of a cousin of mine, was a nun that went to work in the Appalacias to fight the coal companies) working with lawyers and case specialists. They take cases on a basis like the ACLU but lately they've been working covert operation in Central America. They played an important part in uncovering much of the information about the Iran-Contra connection. For the most part though they are not "tree-hugging" environmentalists. Though I see no reason for this seeming hostility towards trees. Face it, mans greatest accomplishment pales in comparison to the beauty and marvel of a leaf of grass. Now from what I've been reading they have some valid questions that you really haven't been answering. Admittedly the plutonium (which is the most poisonous substance known to man, makes dioxin look like lemonade) is encased in "explosion proof" packings and the chance of a catastrophic failure is small. More than likely the thing will just zoom off and be placed in the wrong orbit anyway. But what chance is there of something wrong, very wrong happening? Now if something very wrong does happen what will the effects be? Okay lets say, god forbid, the shuttle explodes again. Lets say it it smashes into the ocean and, say, 5% of the packing fails and 2 pounds of plutonium escape. Can any of you give more than a hapazard guess as to what effect that will happen to the environment in that area? Or doesn't the environment matter in light of man's domination of space? What if something worse happens? Like the shuttle explodes at around 3 miles? Even if only 2 pound of plutonium escape into the atmosphere (only 5%) how many people will this kill over the next 20 years? Are you willing to take the responsibility for something like this? I support the mission. I personally feel that nothing is going to happen and everything will go fine. However, we cannot turn a blind eye to the dangers that something like this entails. We cannot dismiss everyone that wants more careful thinking done as an obstructionist. Sometimes we actually have to take a hard look at what we are doing and what the consequences will be. In our mad dash to escape the Earth we must be careful not to destroy it. enjoy all the sins of life vida loca christos del sinep p.s. Um, Greg Wilkins, why don't you try talking to them. I mean your basing your whole opinion of them on the basis of this newsgroup or so it seems. I mean how many of you people actually knew about the Christis Institute before this? Any of you. For the most part, I think they would be more than willing to talk to anyone that made the effort to get in touch with them. Just as long as you don't act like a bunch of flaming assholes hell bent on proving them to be the fanatics you think they are. p.p.s. I just wonder if any of this will actually get make you think. p.p.p.s. Interesting replies are welcome and will be answered. Flames will be dealt with as harshly as I am able. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Oct 89 09:23:30 GMT From: amethyst!adrian@noao.edu (Adrian Jones) Subject: potential fall of GALILEO Apparently, lot of folks are (or were) worrying about Galileo's launch. I read about it very funny (and much more stupid) article about it. Some hint that the NASA want (or wanted) to launch Galileo in order to prepare the mind of the public for orbital nuclear stations to power lasers....and even if that was true (and that's an ecologist's fantasm), what's wrong with nuclear spaceship's concept ? Even more stupid, I heard there exists a plot of the CIA associated with some Real Estate agents to blast Atlantis. Therefore, plutonium would be spread all over Florida. A lot of fellows would quickly get away from the (potentially) doomed zone. Hence, real estate prices would fall and speculators would buy huge properties, then calm the panick and make a nice profit. Ain't it nice ? James Bond and te nuts still live ------------------------------ Date: 16 Oct 89 14:30:43 GMT From: cloud9!cme@CS.BU.EDU (Carl Ellison) Subject: Re: Try thinking before stinking In article , cr10+@andrew.cmu.edu (Christopher John Rapier) writes: > What if something worse happens? Like the > shuttle explodes at around 3 miles? Even if only 2 pound of plutonium > escape into the atmosphere (only 5%) how many people will this kill over > the next 20 years? > > Are you willing to take the responsibility for something like this? Your posting smacks of panic -- your own or someone else's and an apparent desire to get the listener to emote along similar lines. The man who was faced with designing the explosion-proof package for the fuel pellets IS willing to take responsibility for serious accidents -- full shuttle explosions and worse. It was his or her job to make sure NOTHING escapes in case of disaster. I'm talking about someone who is a qualified engineer and concerned about safety. I'm not talking about a NASA bureaucrat concerned about the schedule for a very visible launch (eg., the culprits in the Challenger explosion). What evidence do you have to suggest that this design wasn't done by the kind of engineer I describe? --Carl Ellison UUCP:: cme@cloud9.Stratus.COM SNail:: Stratus Computer; 55 Fairbanks Blvd.; Marlborough MA 01752 Disclaimer:: (of course) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 89 12:08:40 PST From: Peter Scott Subject: Face on Mars (not the one you think) X-Vms-Mail-To: EXOS%"space@andrew.cmu.edu" I just discovered an issue of the JPL _Universe_ dated February 22, 1985, (before most of the current fuss) which contains the following: BEST FACE FORWARD - "Imagination", so goes the old song, "is crazy; your whole perspective gets hazy..." Lately, news stories have focused on the center photo of this trio [pic of Hoagland face], a feature strongly resembling human or anthropoid characteristics, reflecting the belief of some that the face was sculpted by another civilization [but how do we know that some feature that resembles an armadillo, say, wasn't created by a race of sentient armadillo-like creatures? - PJS]. These three [pix] are typical of many surface details found on Mars by the Viking Orbiters in the late 70s and which, with a little fantasy, could be transformed into serious or whimsical caricatures. A typical Martian impact crater, above, offers a smiling mouth and eyes formed by fractures caused by the original impact. (The area around the crater even reinforces our happy man's "sunny" disposition!) [Pic is of a smiley face-crater with bright rays. Eyes and mouth are distinct and in the right places, and there is a hint of a nose - PJS]. The main crater is about 8 km (5 mi) in diameter, creating the largest known "Happy Face" in the solar system. The center photo [Hoagland pic] was taken by Viking 1 orbiter in Mars' northern latitudes on July 25, 1976, while searching for a landing site for the Viking 2 lander. The speckled appearance is due to missing data, called "bit errors", and including the "face's" visible "nostril" and part of the "eye". [In other words, what looks like a nostril on the pic is actually an error in the picture; it's remarkable how un-lifelike the picture is without it - PJS]. Planetary geologists attribute the origin of the formation to purely natural processes. The feature is 1.5 km (1 mi) across. The third in this whimsical trio of Martian "creatures" is the piece de resistance. An unusual lava flow pattern lies on the flank of Alba Patera, a large volcano north of the Tharsis region in Mars' northern hemisphere. Any grade-school kid -- and maybe even a few adults -- will go to bed dreaming that the Muppets' "Kermit the Frog" had a prior life on Mars. [Pic shows a pretty good outline of upper part of Kermit, including eye, in profile - PJS] To forestall the inevitable - all I have is what I just told you, on paper. I don't have: latitude/longitude, picture catalog numbers, GIF/PostScript/TIFF images, or any other machine-readable form of the pictures mentioned. Sorry. Peter Scott (pjs@grouch.jpl.nasa.gov) ------------------------------ Date: 12 Oct 89 12:41:14 GMT From: gem.mps.ohio-state.edu!ginosko!shadooby!terminator!um.cc.umich.edu!Gavin_Eadie@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Gavin Eadie) Subject: Re: Geyser-like plume discovered on Neptune's moon Triton (Forwarded) In article <2500@ibmpa.UUCP> szabonj@ibmpa.UUCP (nick szabo) writes: > The "Voyager Interstellar Mission" is a new twist. There are a large > number of people working on Voyager right now, and quite naturally they > need something to do. The number of Voyager workers will be reduced from a Neptune encounter high of about 230 to more like 20-30 for the remainder of the Voyager missions. > ..... Both Voyagers, two of the Pioneers, and ICE all require the > use of our largest and rarest (70m) antennae. ... The VIM portion of the Voyagers' travels will be conducted at a low bit rate so it can be accomplished with 34m antennae. > A question for astronomers and planetary scientists on the net: does > the "Voyager Interstellar Mission" have enough scientific merit to sacrifice > data from Galileo and Magellan? It certainly has merit, but I don't know if there's truth in your assertion that Galilieo and Magellan will suffer as a result. Magellan's demands on antennae time are substantial during on-orbit operations. The two Voyagers and two Pioneers that are travelling out of the solar system are unique in that most of the currently planned planetary missions will end up at target planets and will not fly past them to points far from the Sun. This is the only chance in our lifetimes to get long range solar system data. > and deserve our best. We can let the Voyagers fly free, checking in > as schedules allow, ... Apart from the late-Feb/90 Voyager 1 'over the shoulder' mosaic portrait of the solar system, that's a pretty good description of the VIM actually! ---- Gavin Eadie, Associate Director/Software Engineer The University of Michigan Computing Center 535 West William Street, Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109-4943 (313) 936-0816 ------------------------------ Date: 13 Oct 89 17:29:13 GMT From: mailrus!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo!henry@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Enterprise Utilization In article <1256@orbit.UUCP> schaper@pnet51.orb.mn.org (S Schaper) writes: > Could the Orbiter Enterprise be refurbished as the Emergency Crew Return >Vehicle for the Space Station? Just dock it and plug it in. Would the tile >material hold up? APU's even though not in use? Enterprise doesn't even have tiles at the moment; that's one of the bits of refurbishing that would have been necessary to make it spaceworthy. As for APUs and such, that's one big issue with using a shuttle orbiter as a lifeboat (the other being the shortage of shuttle orbiters...): the hardware was not designed for a long stay in space and the problems would have to be studied very carefully. The Soviets solve this one by just rotating Soyuzes frequently. The short-visit Mir missions typically come back to Earth in the Soyuz that was parked at Mir, not the one they themselves went up in. That way, the current long-stay crew always has a reasonably fresh Soyuz on hand in a crisis. -- A bit of tolerance is worth a | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology megabyte of flaming. | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu ------------------------------ Date: 12 Oct 89 22:04:45 GMT From: agate!typhoon.Berkeley.EDU!gwh@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (George William Herbert) Subject: An Idea Does anyone have the competence to comment on this idea: Take a Pegasus rocket, being developed now, and mount it on top of a surplus A-12 (variant of SR-71, the ones outfitted to carry a drone on top). It can get probably a thoudand MPH and fifty thousand feet better launch position over the current B-52 platform. Seperation would probably need some mini solids to ensure distance, but it could be done easily enough,,.... I would (guesstimate) a hundred percent improvement in payload to orbit. Going from the 1.5Mg to 3Mg. Sound like a good idea? **************************************** George William Herbert UCB Naval Architecture Dpt. (my god, even on schedule!) maniac@garnet.berkeley.edu gwh@ocf.berkeley.edu ---------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 13 Oct 89 06:05:05 GMT From: hubcap!ncrcae!ncr-sd!crash!orbit!pnet51!schaper@gatech.edu (S Schaper) Subject: International participation on Freedom A Question for Dr. Spenser. Does Canada get anything in return from NASA for the Canadian Arm? They ought to. Any participation in Freedom? [if and when, at least Mir is _there_]. UUCP: {amdahl!bungia, uunet!rosevax, chinet, killer}!orbit!pnet51!schaper ARPA: crash!orbit!pnet51!schaper@nosc.mil INET: schaper@pnet51.cts.com ------------------------------ Date: 13 Oct 89 15:47:58 GMT From: gem.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!mailrus!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo!henry@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: NASA Headline News for 10/04/89 (Forwarded) In article <2443@uceng.UC.EDU> dmocsny@uceng.UC.EDU (daniel mocsny) writes: >The members of the Christic Institute do not appear to be opposing the >launch of Galileo because it will increase industrial productivity >enough to put them out of work. (What is their product, BTW?) So to >call them "luddites" is erroneous... Yes, if we're being pedantic [words do change meaning, folks, and nowadays "luddite" is often used to mean "mindless technophobe"], it is incorrect. More significantly, calling the Christics "luddites" is an insult to the original Luddites, who had rational reasons to dislike automated machinery. -- A bit of tolerance is worth a | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology megabyte of flaming. | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu ------------------------------ Date: 14 Oct 89 22:19:08 GMT From: jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo!henry@rutgers.edu (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Plutonium (was: South Florida Environmental Reader #12) In article <6144@tekgvs.LABS.TEK.COM> jans@tekgvs.LABS.TEK.COM (Jan Steinman) writes: >Danger from metallic plutonium contained in an inert environment is, therefore, >low. However, plutonium is a strong oxidant, spontaneously catching fire when >exposed to the atmosphere. The resulting fine, white plutonium oxide powder is >readily airborne... Except that as I recall, the plutonium in Galileo's RTGs is oxide already, not metallic plutonium. -- A bit of tolerance is worth a | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology megabyte of flaming. | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu ------------------------------ Date: 14 Oct 89 20:46:49 GMT From: portal!cup.portal.com!mmm@uunet.uu.net (Mark Robert Thorson) Subject: Re: More whining about Galileo pat@leadsv.UUCP (Pat Wimmer) says: > Dear Flatlander, > > Your outburst proves my observation of the mental powers and > sense of vision of your ilk. To paraphrase a quote from RFK, who > borrowed the original quote, "Some people look at a new challenge > and say WHY. I look at the same challenge and say WHY NOT?" > > If you are more worried about risk, which is a downward spiral > into mental midget mentality, than you are with risk management, > than you deserve the country you get! But you won't have to > worry too long about controlling your own fate, because your > country won't be yours much longer! > > Pat Spoken like a true Stalinist. Bleed the people today so we can build the great Utopia tomorrow. If you really believe a tiny minority has a right to loot the nation to achieve your own private goals, why don't you join your space-faring friends in Commie Russia. Remember we still live in a democracy, even if Joe Sixpack doesn't know how to spell "democracy". Our Congress cut funds for the last few flights of Apollo because the American people lost interest in it. Without the keen foresight of Congress, we wouldn't have that neat display of an authentic Saturn V booster in the National Air & Space Museum. If you want American consumers to support your expensive hobby, you gotta give them a consumer reason for it. You gotta let'em know that Galileo will provide the same improvement in astrological prediction that weather satellites provided to weather prediction. Educastion is the solution! ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V10 #159 *******************