Return-path: X-Andrew-Authenticated-as: 7997;andrew.cmu.edu;Ted Anderson Received: from corsica.andrew.cmu.edu via trymail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr1/ota/space/space.dl@andrew.cmu.edu (->+dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr1/ota/space/space.dl) (->ota+space.digests) ID ; Wed, 14 Jun 89 03:16:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Reply-To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU From: space-request+@Andrew.CMU.EDU To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU Date: Wed, 14 Jun 89 03:16:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SPACE Digest V9 #485 SPACE Digest Volume 9 : Issue 485 Today's Topics: Re: How Hubble will get there Re: Space Station computer system Space Station Computer System Re: Kremlin reveals space budget Re: Saturn 5 Booster Re: Space Station computer system Re: Private Space Companies Frequently asked SPACE questions The Space Magazine Re: SPACE Digest V9 #481 Re: Saturn 5 Booster NASA Prediction Bulletin Format Re: Space Station Computer System Re: Venus & the Greenhouse effect... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Jun 89 20:44:39 GMT From: hpda!hpcuhb!hpcllla!hpcllmv!jbc@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Jeff Caldwell) Subject: Re: How Hubble will get there > This changes everything... how come no-one thought of using pigs for > transportation before? Maybe NASA could ferry the shuttle from Edwards > to KSC with camels? Obviously this is a consequence of budgetary > constraints, since animals are non-union. > > Okay, pigs are not the same as boars... tusk, tusk... ^^^^ ^^^^ THAT'S IT! They should use elephants! They would never forget their instructions, they would have little or no problem with freeway traffic (just walk right over those little ferigner-type cars), and they would not be subject to fluctuating oil prices. And last I checked, an elephant could carry a heck of a lot more than a pig/boar (genus-species: pigus-oinkus I think). -Jeff "Compilers are my life" Caldwell P.S. Sorry, I thought I was reading farm-animals.pigs. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 89 23:16:56 GMT From: vsi1!daver!lynx!neal@apple.com (Neal Woodall) Subject: Re: Space Station computer system In article <09.Jun.89.09:45:31.BST.ZZASSGL@UK.AC.MCC.CMS> ZZASSGL@cms.manchester-computing-centre.ac.UK writes: >Why could not an existing computer available off the shelf be used? Hardware used in space is usually built to more stringent specs...it must surivive vibration during liftoff, and is exposed to very energetic particles (fast, heavy nuclei). The stuff being designed for the space station may be similar in architecture to the IBM PS systems, but it will most likely be built to space specs. >Why is a new version of Unix required? Unix is designed to be a timesharing system, and is not very good for process control and data acquisition. Presumably, the space station OS will need to be more oriented towards these things, with a more predictable interrupt response time. Neal ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jun 89 02:11 EDT From: John Taylor Subject: Space Station Computer System > highlights: they're talking about thirty to forty IBM PS/2 model 80's > pointing devices, with 4 megabytes of RAM and running X-Windows, > networked with Fiber Distributed Data Interface and perhaps IEEE 802 Why PS/2's? Why the Micro Channel bus in particular? If they want to use PC's, why not the (vastly superior) Apple Mac? Oh well... :( ------------- John Taylor -- State University of New York at Buffalo Bitnet : v131q5cg@ubvmsc Internet: v131q5cg@ubvmsc.cc.buffalo.edu ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 89 06:15:49 GMT From: cwjcc!mailrus!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo!henry@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Kremlin reveals space budget In article <1989Jun9.101859.10907@cs.rochester.edu> dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz) writes: >If Soviet economists think the USSR is this close to the brink... Economists, plural? The news report mentioned only one... and he got news coverage because (a) his opinion is unusual, and (b) it fits the West's preconceptions of The Desperate Plight Of The Soviet Economy. You can find economists who think the West is just as close to the brink. -- You *can* understand sendmail, | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology but it's not worth it. -Collyer| uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 89 06:11:22 GMT From: cwjcc!mailrus!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo!henry@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Saturn 5 Booster In article <43b69bd5.f89b@gtephx.UUCP> stymar@gtephx.UUCP (Robert E. Styma) writes: >...Saturn 5 booster. There is one laying on it's side at >the Johnson Space center. I this just a mock up or could >it be reverse engineered from this model? That's a real Saturn V, NOT a mockup, NOT a model. It was flight-ready hardware once, earmarked for Apollo 19 I believe. The one at KSC was likewise once flight-ready. The one at Huntsville was a "test article", a pre-production Saturn V (not "5", please!) that probably could have been flown in a pinch. Now they have birds nesting in them... Reverse-engineering from one of them is certainly possible but would be a very long and expensive job. The Saturn V is, alas, gone. -- You *can* understand sendmail, | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology but it's not worth it. -Collyer| uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 89 06:13:49 GMT From: cwjcc!mailrus!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo!henry@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Space Station computer system In article <09.Jun.89.09:45:31.BST.ZZASSGL@UK.AC.MCC.CMS> ZZASSGL@cms.manchester-computing-centre.ac.UK writes: >The recent description of the space station presented here sounded an >awful lot like a piece of "Gold Plating". Why could not an existing >computer available off the shelf be used? Why is a new version of Unix >required? You are the victim of a fundamental misunderstanding: that the highest priority of the space station program is to put a functioning space station into orbit. Wrong. The highest priority is to maximize the size of the station's bureaucratic empire within NASA. Second is the care and feeding of a number of large expensive pets, to wit the NASA contractors. Putting up working hardware runs a poor third, or the thing would be up and operational by now. -- You *can* understand sendmail, | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology but it's not worth it. -Collyer| uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 89 06:07:57 GMT From: mailrus!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo!henry@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Henry Spencer) Subject: Re: Private Space Companies In article shafer@drynix.dfrf.nasa.gov writes: >I'm sorry, I was thinking NASA = government, not DARPA. I thought >that DARPA was putting money into the developement phase, not just >buying a finished product... Unless it's changed lately, nope, they're just buying a launch or two. OSC and Hercules put up the develoment cash. It's not as if it were an enormous amount of money -- only about $70M as I recall. -- You *can* understand sendmail, | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology but it's not worth it. -Collyer| uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jun 89 04:00:21 PDT From: Eugene Miya Subject: Frequently asked SPACE questions This is a list of frequently asked questions on SPACE (which goes back before 1980). It is in development. Good summaries will be accepted in place of the answers given here. The point of this is to circulate existing information, and avoid rehashing old answers. Better to build on top than start again. Nothing more depressing than rehashing old topics for the 100th time. Questions fall into three basic types: 1) Where do I find some information about space? Try you local public library first. You do know how to use a library, don't you? Can't tell these days. The net is not a good place to ask for general information. Ask individuals if you must. There are other sources, use them, too. The net is a place for open ended discussion. 2) I have an idea which would improve space flight? Hope you aren't surprised but 9,999 out of 10,000 have usually been thought of before. Again, contact a direct individual source for evaluation. NASA fields thousands of these each day. 3) Miscellanous queries. Sorry, have to take them case by case. Initially, this message will be automatically posted once per month and hopefully, we can cut it back to quarterly. In time questions and good answers will be added (and maybe removed, nah). ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jun 89 10:36:01 EDT From: "GE: WE BRING GOOD THINGS TO LIFE" Subject: The Space Magazine X-Vms-Mail-To: EXOS%"space@andrew.cmu.edu" Ted, Can you subscribe me or send me info on how to subscribe to "The Space Magazine"? I currently receive Space Digest and enjoy it alot. In your most recent entry you mentioned The Space Magazine. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Tony Luberecki The Space Telescope Science Institute Johns Hopkins University Baltimore, Maryland 21218 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jun 1989 13:37-EDT From: Dale.Amon@H.GP.CS.CMU.EDU Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V9 #481 > can't even manage an operational flight program for a few years, how > can you believe that they can manage a sophisticated conspiracy? I agree. I really doubt that many people consider that there is a "conspiracy" per se. Just typical bureaucratic turf wars, infighting, peter-principle management, rational self-interest of the individuals in the aerospace-NASA-congress iron triangle. The system distorts the market place in ways that are seriously damaging to private space ventures. I refer you to books on Public Choice Theory, which allows you to examine the failures of the governmentplace with some of the same methodologies used for years on the marketplace. Conspiracy theories are nothing but pterodactyl plop. Most people are actually reasonably decent and do the best the can within the institutional bars they live within. When those institutions are not subject to market forces, the result is, ahh, shall we say, ahh, non-optimal? ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 89 04:01:00 GMT From: m.cs.uiuc.edu!zweig@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu Subject: Re: Saturn 5 Booster > /* ---------- "Saturn 5 Booster" ---------- */ > > I have heard that we no longer have the plans to build a > Saturn 5 booster. There is one laying on it's side at > the Johnson Space center. I this just a mock up or could > it be reverse engineered from this model? It's not the plans so much as the tools and dies that are no longer around. They are tricky to reverse engineer (i.e. can you design a lathe based on a table-leg?) ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 89 03:12:54 GMT From: ncis.tis.llnl.gov!blackbird!tkelso@lll-winken.llnl.gov (TS Kelso) Subject: NASA Prediction Bulletin Format As a service to the satellite user community, the following description of the NASA Prediction Bulletin's two-line orbital element set format is uploaded to sci.space on a monthly basis. The most current orbital elements from the NASA Prediction Bulletins are carried on the Celestial RCP/M, (513) 427-0674, and are updated several times weekly. Documentation and tracking software are also available on this system. The Celestial RCP/M may be accessed 24 hours/day at 300, 1200, or 2400 baud using 8 data bits, 1 stop bit, no parity. ============================================================================== Data for each satellite consists of three lines in the following format: AAAAAAAAAAA 1 NNNNNU NNNNNAAA NNNNN.NNNNNNNN +.NNNNNNNN +NNNNN-N +NNNNN-N N NNNNN 2 NNNNN NNN.NNNN NNN.NNNN NNNNNNN NNN.NNNN NNN.NNNN NN.NNNNNNNNNNNNNN Line 1 is a eleven-character name. Lines 2 and 3 are the standard Two-Line Orbital Element Set Format identical to that used by NASA and NORAD. The format description is: Line 2 Column Description 01-01 Line Number of Element Data 03-07 Satellite Number 10-11 International Designator (Last two digits of launch year) 12-14 International Designator (Launch number of the year) 15-17 International Designator (Piece of launch) 19-20 Epoch Year (Last two digits of year) 21-32 Epoch (Julian Day and fractional portion of the day) 34-43 First Time Derivative of the Mean Motion or Ballistic Coefficient (Depending on ephemeris type) 45-52 Second Time Derivative of Mean Motion (decimal point assumed; blank if N/A) 54-61 BSTAR drag term if GP4 general perturbation theory was used. Otherwise, radiation pressure coefficient. (Decimal point assumed) 63-63 Ephemeris type 65-68 Element number 69-69 Check Sum (Modulo 10) (Letters, blanks, periods = 0; minus sign = 1; plus sign = 2) Line 3 Column Description 01-01 Line Number of Element Data 03-07 Satellite Number 09-16 Inclination [Degrees] 18-25 Right Ascension of the Ascending Node [Degrees] 27-33 Eccentricity (decimal point assumed) 35-42 Argument of Perigee [Degrees] 44-51 Mean Anomaly [Degrees] 53-63 Mean Motion [Revs per day] 64-68 Revolution number at epoch [Revs] 69-69 Check Sum (Modulo 10) All other columns are blank or fixed. Example: NOAA 6 1 11416U 86 50.28438588 0.00000140 67960-4 0 5293 2 11416 98.5105 69.3305 0012788 63.2828 296.9658 14.24899292346978 Note that the International Designator fields are usually blank, as issued in the NASA Prediction Bulletins. -- Dr TS Kelso Asst Professor of Space Operations tkelso@blackbird.afit.af.mil Air Force Institute of Technology ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 89 05:36:49 GMT From: unmvax!polyslo!jmckerna@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (John McKernan) Subject: Re: Space Station Computer System In article V131Q5CG@UBVMSC.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (John Taylor) writes: > Why PS/2's? Why the Micro Channel bus in particular? If they want to >use PC's, why not the (vastly superior) Apple Mac? Oh well... :( The space station computers are going to use the UNIX operating system. UNIX on the Mac (A/UX) is still quite immature. SCO Xenix or even IBM AIX is a much more mature product. John L. McKernan. Student, Computer Science, Cal Poly S.L.O. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The future is rude and pushy. It won't wait for us to solve today's problems before it butts in with tomorrow's. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jun 89 12:38:02 PDT From: Peter Scott Subject: Re: Venus & the Greenhouse effect... jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo!henry@rutgers.edu (Henry Spencer) writes: >I saw, in JBIS I think, a proposal to use the half-dozen biggest >asteroids to kill two birds with one stone: blast most of the atmosphere >off into space and spin the planet up as well. You can guess how. :-) What sort of effect would this have on the temperature of the crust? Wouldn't it heat up most of the surface rock considerably? Peter Scott (pjs@grouch.jpl.nasa.gov.earth) ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V9 #485 *******************