Date: 30 May 92 21:08:09 EDT From: Gordon Meyer <72307.1502@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: File 5--GEnie RTC with Hafner (Co-author of CYBERPUNK) ______________________________________________________ | | | The Public Forum * NonProfit Connection RoundTable |______ |______________________________________________________| | | Sysops' GE Mail: PF$ RTC Sunday 9pm EDT: MOVE 545;2 |______ |___________________________________________________________| | | News, Current Events, Government, Societal Issues, Nonprofits | |________________________________________________________________| Real-time Conference on Cyberpunk with Katie Hafner (May 24, 1992) ==================================================================== (C) 1992 by GEnie (R) and Public Forum*NonProfit Connection This file may be distributed only in its entirety and with this notice intact. CYBERPUNK: Outlaws and Hackers on the Computer Frontier has intrigued everyone from William (Neuromancer) Gibson to Mitch (Lotus Development) Kapor. On May 24 at 9pm ET, author Katie Hafner joined us to talk about the social consequences of computer networks and the communities that have grown up around them. The government has both raided local BBSs and solicited proposals for a "weaponized virus." What rules of the road would you make for computer networks? Former news editor of Data Communications magazine, Katie was correspondent for Business Week specializing in technology and computers. A graduate of the University of California at Santa Barbara, with an M.A. from Columbia University School of Journalism, she's now working on a book about German reunification. The New York Times' John Markoff is co-author of Cyberpunk. This RTC is the third in the Public Forum's month-long program on Technology and Society. Our next RTC is May 31. And don't miss lively discussion of Science, Technology and Society in bulletin board category 7, and check out the files on technology and society in our library. See Cat 7/Topic 1 for details. An electronic meeting place for friends, family and national "town meetings," GEnie is an international online computer network for information, education and entertainment. For under $5.00/month, GEnie offers over 50 special interest bulletin boards and unlimited electronic mail at no extra charge during evenings, weekends and holidays. GEnie is offered by GE Information Services, a division of General Electric Company. In the Public Forum*NonProfit Connection, thousands of people every day discuss politics and a wide range of social and nonprofit issues. A neutral arena for all points of view, the PF*NPC is presented by Public Interest Media, a nonprofit organization devoted to empowering people through the socially productive use of information and communication technology. For more information about GEnie or the Public Forum, call 1-800-638-9636 or send electronic mail to tsherman@igc.org. To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem in HALF DUPLEX) 800-638-8369. Upon connection, type HHH. At the U#= prompt, type XTX88367,GENIE . The system will prompt you for information. ==================================================================== __________________________________________________________ -=(( The Public Forum * NonProfit Connection RoundTable ))=- -==((( GEnie Page 545 - Keywords PF or NPC )))==- -=((__________________________________________________________))=- I'd like to welcome everyone to the RTC. Katie, why don't you say a few words and introduce yourself. <[Katie] PRESS11> let's see... john markoff (my husband) and i wrote cyberpunk over a period... of about three years and it came out last summer. but the book isn't cheap, so luckily, the papberback is coming out next month let's see...what else?....oh yes, now i'm living in berlin... most of the time, working on a second book. Let me explain the process here . . . Before we get started, a word about the process . . . At the beginning, only Katie and people asking questions will be able to talk so that everyone gets a turn . . If you have a question, type /RAI to raise your hand. I'll call on you in order. Please type your question, but DON'T hit to send it. When you're called on, THEN hit to send your question quickly . . . so we'll have time for more questions . . . It's good to use three periods if you have more to say and to put GA for "go ahead" at the end of a final phrase . . . So let's see those /RAIsed hands and I'll start calling on you! GA <[Darryl] D.JENT> Katie, did you actually meet Kevin Mitnick & the others in your book ga <[Katie] PRESS11> yes. i met everyone in the book. the only one who didn't cooperate with the book was kevin... kevin is the hacker we wrote about in the first section of the book... a member of an l.a. gang of phone phreaks and hackers called the roscoe gang... he wanted to be paid to talk to us, and i explained to him (and his grandmother, who was working as his agent...) that journalists, for obvious ethical reasons, do not (if they're good journalists, that is)... pay sources fo information. <[Gene] G.STOVER> When do you think cyberspace will be available to the general public? What part will NREN and ISDN play in this? <[Katie] PRESS11> it already is... the more bandwidth, the more cyberspace! ga After a few more people have had a chance to ask questions . . . I'll give everyone a second or third or fourthchance . . . Richard, your question? <[Richard] R.GILLIAM3> Who was the publisher for each edition? <[Katie] PRESS11> simon & schuster did the hardcover, and an imprint of S&S... called Touchstone is doing the paperback. ga <[Richard] R.GILLIAM3> Who was your editor at the publishing house. (Sorry for my unfamiliarity with the commands) <[Katie] PRESS11> my editor? a very nice guy who doesn't know a lot about technology named Bob Bender ga Katie, I read _The Cuckoo's Egg_, and was fascinated -- and appalled. Have The Powers That Be become any more security conscious, or at least any more willing to listen in the event something like that happens again? <[Katie] PRESS11> it's still pretty bad, security-wise out there... there are lots of loopholes. everywhere. ga <[2] eric] E.SHCHNEIDER> did he give you permission to write about him ..... m <[Katie] PRESS11> no. no one gave us permission. we're journalists, not movie producers. ga <[Andrea] A.DUDA> We read about the really sensational cases of hackers. How much of a problem are they overall? And in trying to limit their activities, do we lose more than we gain (since we limit other, legitimate, users as well)? <[Katie] PRESS11> i think that the press reports that blow the hacking incidents out of proportion.... do a real disservice to society... that is, i think that now the public at large has an exaggerated fear of hackers. in the book... we tried to write very realistically about what really happened... and i do think that we're treading aline between restricting access too much and leaving systems too wide open. ga <[Darryl] D.JENT> Katie, What was your feelings about the chaos club in Germany? <[Katie] PRESS11> i like them a lot... they're very different from hackers in the united states, and that was kind of interesting... <[Darryl] D.JENT> How much of their activities did you get to witness ga <[Katie] PRESS11> wau holland, the founder of chaos, is an old 60's radical, and a liberatarian who's categorically opposed to authority ga <[Tom] SHERMAN> Katie, did you see Darryl's second qeustion -- how much of their activities did you get to witness? <[Katie] PRESS11> oops. sorry... yeah. i hung out with pengo in berlin for several weeks... and of course i witnessed quite a bit... he was good (at hacking, that is), but more of a talker, really, than anything else... the really talented one in that group was probably markus hess, the one who was in the berkeley computers and who gave cliff stoll such a heart attack... and in the end, they all got scared and ratted on each other and three of them went to jail (well, hess's parents bailed him out) ga <[Tom] SHERMAN> Katie, who do you think is going to draw that line between too little restriction and too much? What role does the public play? ga <[Katie] PRESS11> i guess we have to draw the line... i mean, we are all sitting in cyberspace right now, and we're pretty much respecting the rules of the road... and if we want to keep the feds from telling us what we can and cannot do in cyberspace then we have to come up with rules that are acceptable to us and to them. ga <[Andrea] A.DUDA> How do you think the "rules of the road" will change when commercial firms become more evident with NREN? Are they more concerned about security than universities, etc.? <[Katie] PRESS11> in a way it's too bad because anything that goes commercial takes on a formal flavor that can be restrictive... but that's not always the case... but yes, they are concerned about security, particularly because of all the security firms out there telling them they should be. ga <[Andrea] A.DUDA> One of the things I like about the Internet is being able to go to various computers for information. Do you think the whole system will become more restrictive to accommodate the commercial firms? <[Katie] PRESS11> new technology such as cryptography... will tend to make commercialization work because it will make breaking into systems more difficult. ga <[Tom] SHERMAN> Katie, would you say something about the differences between European and US regulations governing security and privacy -- and the potential for problems with the European Community? <[Katie] PRESS11> the europeans have always (like in all things) been a little bit behind the u.s.... in hacking laws. the most interesting thing about it is that as soon as a country makes it illegal to break into computers... then the hacking drops precipitously (or maybe the underground goes deeper)... the international folks at the ec are already trying to come up with uniform laws governing computer security throughout the european community. yawn. ga <[Phillip] P.MAY2> katie, do you feel there is a greater potential for abuse of systems from "insiders", i.e. employees of companies who implement the systems, or outsiders like those described in you r book .? ga <[Katie] PRESS11> of course there is... it's pretty widely known that almost all of the white-collar crime out there that uses computers and is most expensive to business is committed by insiders... but companies get very embarrassed by that... and they tend not to report those crimes... they'd rather report crimes that seem to be committed by juvenile delinquents... not their own people! ga <[Darryl] D.JENT> What is nren & Katie what is the new book about. More hackers or what?... I loved your first book, read it in two days ga <[Katie] PRESS11> national research and education network, designed to send data above a gigabit... and tie all the nation's supercomputer centers together and it's federally funded. the book i'm working on now... is about a particular house in gemrany. just over the glienicker bride (where all the spies used to be exchanged)... in berlin. nothing to do with computers. <[Tom] SHERMAN> Darryl, check out the article from the Whole Earth Review about data highways; it's in our file library (with permission, of course :-) Darryl, follow up question? <[Darryl] D.JENT> Sounds interesting still, I'll thanks <[Richard] R.GILLIAM3> Stock exchanges and currency exchanges are close to 24 hour world-wide operation. How possible will it be for insiders to undetectable manipulate the markets?GA <[Katie] PRESS11> quite possible. have you heard about the $170 million or so that disappeared mysteriously from volkswagen's books?... this happened a few years ago. ga <[Richard] R.GILLIAM3> No. I haven't heard the VW story. I think the potential for financial hacking is enormous GA <[Katie] PRESS11> i think you're absolutely right... and i think we (the public) only hear about a very small fraction of the stuff that goes on. ga <[Tom] SHERMAN> Before we move into open discussion, I want to take a second to . . . thank all of you for your question and, especially, . . . to thank Katie for joining us! <[Katie] PRESS11> it was fun! sorry about all my typing blunders :-) <[Tom] SHERMAN> And now for the winners of our contest . . . Thanks to Simon & Schuster, the publishers of CYBERPUNK, for donating four copies of the book to our contest winners. Thanks to everyone for submitting such imaginative entries!. . . The envelope please . . . For the best scenarios describing constructive uses of hacking, T.CAMPBELL11 and M.VANCE1. And for destructive uses, S.CURTISIII1 and D.TAMPLIN. Congratulations to Tim, Vance, Stan and David! I'll now open the room so that all of us can type . . . <[Tom] SHERMAN> No one counts typing blunders, Katie, not in here! <[Richard] R.GILLIAM3> RTC spell-checkers. The next cyber-frontier! <[Andrea] A.DUDA> Are the contest winners all in one place where we can read them? <[Tom] SHERMAN> Yes, the contest entries are in Cat 7/Topics 16 and 17, except . . . for one that was sent by e-mail because the author thought it too dangerous to post in public <[Tom] SHERMAN> Katie, what do you think about the FBI's interest in legislation requiring the phone companies to make digital phone transmission accessible to them? (Did you see Marc and Janlori on Koppel's program the other night?) <[Katie] PRESS11> it's the stupidest thing i've ever heard of. it will never work... people will just buy cheap encryption. <[Darryl] D.JENT> Katie, have you meet meet William Gibson & How surprised are you at the way his books have become reality? <[Tom] SHERMAN> Hmmm, say a little more about that, would you? <[Katie] PRESS11> i've talked to him on the phone. i'd like to meet him, though. he's extremely tall, i hear ... but what part has become reality? ga <[Fomalhaut] J.PAXSON> Darryl, pray that the world itself does not become that horrible. <[Katie] PRESS11> you're not kidding. <[Darryl] D.JENT> I was meaning the way virtual reality is shaping <[Darryl] D.JENT> Most of what I've read about VR lately was in his books <[Fomalhaut] J.PAXSON> I've had some success with virtual reality using x-specs and stereo headphones. <[Richard] R.GILLIAM3> Experiment surgery has been done for the hearing impaired, wiring the bones between the ear and the brain so that some sound can be heard. This is, I suggest, a rudimentary form of the cyber-wiring that is certain to come. <[Tom] SHERMAN> Richard, will they just wire digital jacks where our ears used to be? <[Katie] PRESS11> that's been done for the blind, too. <[Andrea] A.DUDA> Interesting thought, Richard. Imagine what happens if someone messes with that! I heard that on a talk show just this morning, Richard! <[Richard] R.GILLIAM3> Yes, Tom. Expect that eventually it will be done by radio receivers, not wires. <[Tom] SHERMAN> Will there be an OFF switch? <[Richard] R.GILLIAM3> Let's hope so, Tom That'll depend on whether or not we end up in 1984 or Brave New World. <[Tom] SHERMAN> Is this what Gene meant when he said we'd all be on the network? <[Darryl] D.JENT> Katie, what is the wildest computer lab you have visited as far as technologically advanced? <[Richard] R.GILLIAM3> I've often thought it was just a question of who got us first---the cyberpunks or the genetic engineers. Eventually it will be both. <[Katie] PRESS11> it's a toss-up between the media lab and xerox parc <[Darryl] D.JENT> It that the media lab at MIT? Is that Xerox in Leesburg, VA? <[Katie] PRESS11> yeah, and xerox parc in palo alto I haven't been to Palo Alto, but I've been to Leesburg. It's pretty wild too. ;) <[Darryl] D.JENT> hAVE YOU MET mARVIN mINSKY at MIT, He has wrote some wild books about the brain & AI <[Katie] PRESS11> yes. he's a wild guy. you should meet his daughter <[Darryl] D.JENT> Tom, I didn't get a chance to, but will I loved his book Society of the Mind. <[Katie] PRESS11> i've never read that. <[Darryl] D.JENT> It's about using Artificial Intelligence & trying to mimic the brain <[Darryl] D.JENT> About how the easiest things we do as humans are the hardest to get a computer to do. <[Tom] SHERMAN> Katie's already stayed longer than I asked and so . . I want to thank her again for joining us and . . . to remind all of you that Jerry Berman, formerly of the ACLU and now . . . head of the D.C. office of the Electronic Frontier Foundation will . . . be our guest next Sunday! . . . Do join us and, during the week, . . . take a minute to add your thoughts to our bulletin board discussion about . . . technology and society in Category 7 . . . All of you . . . are welcome to stay as long as you like. Katie. thanks again! <[Darryl] D.JENT> Such as moving Thanks, Katie, will have to read your new book. Good luck <[Richard] R.GILLIAM3> Thanks Katie, Tom. Enjoyed the RTC. Looking forward to visiting again. You can get to the PF*NPC bulletin board on page 8011;1 -- it's a Basic service. -----# Participants #----- <[Andrea] A.DUDA> <[Darryl] D.JENT> <[Dave] D.THOMPSON74> <[2] eric] E.SHCHNEIDER> <[Gene] G.STOVER> <[Fomalhaut] J.PAXSON> <[Lamont] L.INGALLS> <[Phillip] P.MAY2> <[Katie] PRESS11> <[Richard] R.GILLIAM3> <[Tom] SHERMAN> <[Tom] T.BARKER6> __________________________________________________________________ | Rights & responsibilities, government, politics, minority civil |_ | rights, volunteerism, nonprofit management, the media, the | | | environment, international issues, gay/lesbian/bisexual issues, | | | women & men, parenting, youth organizations and more! | | |__________________________________________________________________| | |__________________________________________________________________| ________ PF$ PF*NPC Sysops _____________ | |_ | Weekly RTC: |_ | The | | SHERMAN Tom Sherman | 9pm Eastern | | | PF*NPC | | SCOTT Scott Reed | on Sundays! | | | Staff: | | CHERNOFF Paul Chernoff | Type M545;2 | | |________| | GRAFFITI Ric Helton |_____________| | |________| SHERRY Sherry |_____________| __________________________________________________________ -=(( The Public Forum * NonProfit Connection RoundTable ))=- -==((( GEnie Page 545 - Keywords PF or NPC )))==- -=((__________________________________________________________))=- | | This listing was generated by LRTC Version 1.00 | (C)opyright by Hartmut W. 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