Computer underground Digest    Sun June 7, 1992   Volume 4 : Issue 25

       Editors: Jim Thomas and Gordon Meyer (TK0JUT2@NIU.BITNET)
       Associate Editor: Etaion Shrdlu, Jr.
       Newest Authormeister: B. Kehoe
       Arcmeister: Bob Kusumoto
       Downundermeister: Dan Carosone

CONTENTS, #4.25 (June 7, 1992)
File 1--Detailed Summary of X-Press (Response to CuD 4.24)
File 2--Study of E-Mail/Computer-Mediated Communication
File 3--Major Congressional Candidates Commit to Elec. Civil Liberties
File 4--Internet Society Details
File 5--GEnie RTC with Hafner (Co-author of CYBERPUNK)

Issues of CuD can be found in the Usenet alt.society.cu-digest news
group, on CompuServe in DL0 and DL4 of the IBMBBS SIG, DL1 of LAWSIG,
and DL0 and DL12 of TELECOM, on Genie in the PF*NPC RT libraries, on
the PC-EXEC BBS at (414) 789-4210, and by anonymous ftp from
ftp.eff.org (192.88.144.4), chsun1.spc.uchicago.edu, and
ftp.ee.mu.oz.au.  To use the U. of Chicago email server, send mail
with the subject "help" (without the quotes) to
archive-server@chsun1.spc.uchicago.edu.  European distributor: ComNet
in Luxembourg BBS (++352) 466893.

COMPUTER UNDERGROUND DIGEST is an open forum dedicated to sharing
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is cited.  Some authors do copyright their material, and they should
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Readers are encouraged to submit reasoned articles relating to
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DISCLAIMER: The views represented herein do not necessarily represent
            the views of the moderators. Digest contributors assume all
            responsibility for ensuring that articles submitted do not
            violate copyright protections.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jun 92 04:48 EST
From: "Michael E. Marotta" <MERCURY@LCC.EDU>
Subject: File 1--Detailed Summary of X-Press (Response to CuD 4.24)

In CUD #4.24, the transcript of Cisler's forum on Genie mentioned
X-Press.  Here is a more detailed description of what X-Press is.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Excerpts from: "Connecting Your Computer to Cable TV
                Doubles the Dimensions of Cyberspace"
                by Michael E. Marotta
(originally published Aug 1991 by TELECOMPUTING, Albuq, NM)

X-PRESS Informations Services, Ltd., of Denver Colorado, makes it
possible for your home computer to receive and store news via cable
(or satellite) television.  X-PRESS X-Change is their basic service;
they also sell an "executive" connection geared to businesses.

X-PRESS X-Change is a basic consumer information service provided by
cable television companies to personal computers.  The service is a
constant stream of worldwide news, sports, and weather supplemented
with articles on lifestyle, shopping, and entertainment.  Conferencing
with other users is also possible.

International news is the key feature of X-Change.  In addition to the
Associated Press, there are nine other news feeds.  Tass and Xinhua
send news in English from the USSR and China.  English-language news
also comes from OPEC, Taiwan and Japan.  NOTIMEX sends out news in
Spanish from Mexico.  User can define up to 16 keywords for which the
computer will automatically scan.  The results can be stored to disk
for later evaluation.

The service is generally compatible with IBM-PC, Apple // and
Macintosh, Atari and Amiga computers.  It is most compatible with
IBM-PCs including the XT, AT and PC/2 lines.  To run with an Apple //c
or //e, requires a super serial card.  As you would expect, only the
Atari-ST series can be used and Amiga owners must have a 500, 1000 or
2000.  This is a 16-bit service.

Also, there are some differences in the kinds of special features the
various kinds of personal computers will support.  For example, all of
them will news and stock quotes and all can write news stories to disk
for future reference.  However, only IBM, Atari and Amiga systems can
accept futures and options information.

To connect to X-Change, you buy an interface kit for $99.95. If your
cable television service already offers X-change there is no other
charge.  Executive service costs $19.95 per month.  The cost of the
modem is higher, also, $149.95.  If your cable television provider
does not carry X-Change and doesn't want to, then you can use a
satellite dish.  The signal comes from Galaxy-1 transponders 7 (WTBS)
and 18 (CNN) but you don't have to subscribe to these to use the
InfoCipher equipment.  Via satellite the Executive service costs
$26.95 per month.

Both the Executive and basic products give you access to financial
information.  For instance basic service includes the ability to track
128 symbols from 2000 securities.  X-PRESS Executive provides quotes
on 30,000 securities.   In addition, stocks, Treasury rates, CDs,
Broker Call Loans and foreign exchange rate, and selected metal prices
are also available. X-PRESS also provides software for tracking and
analyzing financial data.  The output is compatible with Lotus 1-2-3.

Conferencing is also possible.  X-PRESS clients can dial in via a
Tymnet 800 number.  Users can read and post messages in several areas.
X-PRESS then selects messages to be posted on the television feeds.
The "Pen Pals" conference is popular with grade schoolers.  High
school students benefit from a "Science and Technology" conference
that leans toward NASA activities.  Thus, X-PRESS is basically a BBS
via cable television or satellite.  Of necessity, the information flow
is generally one way, from X-PRESS to you.

------------------------------

Date: Fri 53 Jun 1992 17:22:51 CST
From: Jim Thomas<tk0jut1@niu.bitnet>
Subject: File 2--Study of E-Mail/Computer-Mediated Communication

A novel study is being proposed by a number of participants of the
bitnet Computer-Mediated Communication (CMC) newsgroup.  It may be the
first such study--done by researchers scattered around the world who
have never met--of its kind.  The CMC forum focuses on academic
discussions related to the impact of computer and related technology
on forms, content, and structure of communication. Those interested
can subscribe by sending the command:  JOIN CMC <name> to:
COMSERVE@RPIECS Here is a summary of the research:

                 ++++++ original post follows +++++++


 Date-         Wed, 3 Jun 1992 19-19-00 IST
 From-         Sheizaf Rafaeli <KBUSR@HUJIVM1.BITNET>
 Subject-      E-Group study update

E-Groups study,  outline #3, update

As promised, here is a short summary of what has happened (for those
tuning-in late):

It began with a discussion of the dynamics of discussions. David
Levine, of UC Berkeley, proposed a 'bad posts drive out good'
postulate, that ignited many of us. A group of us have agreed to
attempt a joint study of the longevity and process of e-group
discussions.

We are now doing two things:

        1) Mobilizing: identifying participants and collecting 'pledges'.
        2) Conceptualizing: identifying research questions and hypotheses,
           with an eye toward a study or two.

There seem to be, in the works, two parallel efforts.  One line of
inquiry will be qualitative. The purpose in this study will be an
in-depth analysis of the dynamics occuring within a list. Prof. Brenda
Danet will, I hope, fill in more details on this effort.

The second project is shaping up to be a content-analysis of a
representative sample of archived discussions, which may (later) be
linked to surveys of users, moderators, participant observations, etc.
Under discussion are the hypotheses such a data set can address.

The e-group content analysis is an attempt to quantify group behavior
(formation, cohesion, dispersal) on e-lists. The hypotheses suggested so
far predict sensitivity of the threads of discussion to combinations of
the following variables:

        * Length of messages
        * language of message
        * presence and nature of subject header
        * presence and nature of stylized signature
        * writer status
        * writer gender
        * dependency on previous messages (posts)
        * use of quotes from previous posts
        * tone (sarcasm, information, plea, threat, support, 'lecture')
        * use of questions, challenges
        * extent of use of nonverbal cues in message
        * presence of "flames"
        * metacommunication, that is communication about communication
        * personal interest vested in post
        * reference to external communication sources

We intend to 'massage' these concepts into a workable codebook. If the
numbers of participants stay where they are right now, the onerous
nature of content analysis grunt work wont even be that bad. We should
be able to generate reliable data.

The codebook will then be used to content-analyze series of messages.
Hopefully, we will end up with enough data to identify threads of
discussions, and "communities" forming, lasting and/or disbanding.
Eventually, if this works, we'll have at least two products on our
hands:

        a. a large data set all can dip into.
        b. the experience of having collaborated without meeting.

I believe either of the two is good enough reason to try.

Under discussion, currently, are:

        1) Hypotheses and research questions.
        2) Items for inclusion in the codebook.
        3) Individual lists for inclusion in the sample,
           or - alternatively - a method for selecting lists.


Nothing is set in stone yet. It is all, literally, bits in the wind. So
join in, Please!



Sheizaf Rafaeli
Hebrew University of Jerusalem
sheizafr@shum.huji.ac.il
or KBUSR@HUJIVM1

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 92 10:59:51 PDT
From: jwarren@AUTODESK.COM(Jim Warren)
Subject: File 3--Major Congressional Candidates Commit to Elec. Civil Liberties

Five Leading San Francisco Peninsula Congressional Candidates Sign
Explicit Commitments to Protect "Electronic Civil Liberties"

All but one of the six leading candidates for California's 14th
Congressional District have formally committed to protect traditional
constitutional liberties against technological threats.  All three
Republican candidates and two of the three leading Democratic
candidates signed formal commitments.

The 14th District covers northern "Silicon Valley" and the southern
half of the San Francisco Peninsula.

This is believed to be the first time that major-party congressional
candidates have ever committed to explicit action to protect
technology-related civil liberties.

The candidates' signed statements that were much more than
nice-sounding, equivocating "God, mother and apple-pie" principles.
They made explicit commitments to take explicit action in their
first/next term in Congress.

Those 14th Dist candidates who signed the formal statement (below)
included:
Dixon Arnett (R),      Tom Huening (R),        Ted Lempert (D),
Tom Nolan (D),         Mike Maibach (R) and    Chuck Olson (L).

Gerry Andeen (D) sent a statement about the issues, but made NO
COMMITMENTS.

Anna Eshoo (D) FAILED TO RESPOND AFTER FOUR REQUESTS, as did
then-candidate James Blackman (D), after three requests.  The multiple
requests were faxed and mailed to the candidates between Apr. 4th and
Apr. 13th, along with an explanatory cover letter.

Lempert was the first to respond -- apparently by return mail -- and
added a two-page statement regarding technological threats to personal
privacy and his commitment to seek protection against them, as well.

  Arnett's response also noted that he was one of the cosponsors of
the Privacy Section that was added to the California Constitution
during his tenure in the state Assembly.

In addition, ten other Libertarian candidates signed the formal
statement, apparently circulated by Libertarian activists, primarily
using the computer nets.  Those signing included:
Alan F. Barksdale (U.S. Senate from Alabama),
Richard Boddie (U.S. Senate from California),
James Elwood (8th House Dist from California),
June R. Genis (U.S. Senate from California),
Robert D. Goodwyn (22nd California State Assembly Dist),
Chuck Hammill (47th California State Assembly Dist),
James J. Ludemann (California State Assembly),
George L. O'Brien (12th House Dist from California),
Anton Sherwood (12th California State Assembly Dist),
Mark Valverde (13th California State Assembly Dist) and
Will Wohler (3rd California State Senate Dist).

  Note:  This Libertarian sign-up resulted entirely from one copy
being sent by electronic-mail to June Genis (San Mateo County) and one
to Mark Hinkle (Santa Clara County activist).

Several others responded without committing to action:

  U.S. Senate candidate Tom Campbell (R) also sent a statement about
the issues, but offered NO COMMITMENTS TO EXPLICIT ACTION, as did
Glenn Tenney (D, 12th House).

  This effort was an outcome of disclosures before and during the
First Conference on Computers, Freedom & Privacy, held near San
Francisco International Airport in March, 1991.  It drew over eighty
pages of public and trade press coverage, internationally.

This is the statement that was signed by the indicated candidates:

           Guaranteeing Constitutional Freedoms into the 21st Century

Preface

    Harvard Law Professor Laurence H. Tribe, one of the nation's
leading Constitutional scholars, views technological threats to our
traditional constitutional freedoms and protections as so serious that --
for the first time in his career -- he has proposed a Constitutional
Amendment:

    "This Constitution's protections for the freedoms of speech,
press, petition and assembly, and its protections against unreasonable
searches and seizures and the deprivation of life, liberty or property
without due process of law, should be construed as fully applicable
without regard to the technological method or medium through which
information content is generated, stored, altered, transmitted or
controlled."

    -- First Conf. on Computers, Freedom & Privacy, 3/27/91, Burlingame CA

    In the absence of such a constitutional clarification, legislation
and regulation are the only alternatives to assure that citizens are
protected from technological threats against their constitutional
rights and freedoms.


                    Candidate's Commitment to Action

    Preface:  It has been over two centuries since our Constitution
and Bill of Rights were adopted.  The great technological changes in
the interim --especially in computing, telecommunications and
electronics -- now pose a clear and present danger to the rights and
protections guaranteed in those great documents.  Therefore:

    Commitment:  In the first legislative session after I am
[re]elected, I will author or co-author legislation reflecting the
following specifics, and I will actively support and testify in favor
of any similar legislation as may be introduced by others.  Further, I
will actively seek to include in such legislation, explicit personal
civil and/or criminal penalties against any agent, employee or
official of the government who violates any of these statutes.  And
finally, I will keep all citizens who express interest in legislative
progress on these matters fully and timely informed.

    The protections guaranteed in the Constitution and its Amendments
shall be fully applicable regardless of the current technology of the
time. This particularly includes, but is not limited to:

    Speech:  Freedom of speech shall be equally protected, whether by
voice or in written form as in the 18th Century, or by electronic
transmission or computer communication as in the 20th Century and
thereafter.

    Press:  Freedom of the press shall be equally protected, whether
its information is distributed by print as in the 18th Century, or by
networked computers or other electronic forms, as in the 20th Century
and thereafter.  Liability for content:  Just as a printer is not
liable for content of leaflets printed for a customer, so also shall
the owner or operator of a computer or electronic or
telecommunications facility be held harmless for the content of
information distributed by users of that facility, except as the owner
or operator may, by contract, control information content.  Those who
author statements and those who have contractual authority to control
content shall be the parties singularly responsible for such content.

    Assembly:  Freedom of assembly shall be equally protected, whether
by face-to-face meeting as in the 18th Century, or by computer-based
electronic-conference or other teleconference as in the 20th Century
and thereafter.  The right to hold confidential meetings shall be
equally protected, whether they be by personal meeting in private
chambers, or by computer-assisted or electronic-based means.

    Self-defense:  The right of the people to keep and use computers
and communications connections shall not be abridged by the
government.

    Search & seizure:  The right of the people to be secure in their
papers and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall
be fully applicable to their electronic mail, computerized information
and personal computer systems.

Warrants:  No warrants for search or seizure shall issue for
computerized information, but upon probable cause, supported by oath
or affirmation, and particularly describing the computer system to be
searched and the specific information to be seized.

Secure information vaults:  Just as search and seizure of letters in a
post-office, and papers in a bank-vault lock-box, and surveillance of
telephone conversations by wire-tap, each require a separate warrant
for each postal address, lock-box and telephone line, so also shall a
separate warrant be required for each electronic-mail address and/or
computer files of each suspect, when stored in a computer facility or
archive shared by others.  And further, computer files stored in a
shared facility or archive by or for a citizen who is neither named in
a warrant nor associated with a suspect so-named, may not be used
against that un-named citizen, if seized or discovered during legal
search of or for files of a suspect.

    Self-incrimination:  No person shall be compelled in any civil or
criminal case to be a witness against himself or herself, nor be
compelled to provide information retained only in their mind, nor
otherwise be compelled to assist the translation or decoding of
information that he or she believes may be self-incriminating.

    Property: Private property shall not be taken for public use without
just compensation, nor shall such property be used nor sold by any
government agency for less than fair market value, in which case all such
proceeds shall promptly derive singularly to its last owner prior to
government seizure.

    Speedy release:  Anyone not accused of a crime shall enjoy the
right to a speedy release and return of all of their property, as may
be seized under any warrant, particularly including their computerized
information.  The government shall be fully liable for any damage
befalling property or information they have seized.


[ Additional copies of this model candidate's position commitment are
available from:
  Jim Warren, Electronic Democracy Initiatives,
  345 Swett Road, Woodside CA 94062; (415)851-7075, fax/(415)851-2814;
  electronic-mail/  jwarren@autodesk.com  -or-  jwarren@well.sf.ca.us
For identification purposes, only:  organized and chaired the First
Conference on Computers, Freedom & Privacy (3/91), received one of the
Electronic Frontier Foundation's first Pioneer Awards (3/92), is a
"futures" columnist for MicroTimes, an Autodesk Board member, the founder
of InfoWorld, PBS-TV "Computer Chronicles" founding host, etc. ]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 2 Jun 1992 17:54:44 GMT
From: NEELY_MP@DARWIN.NTU.EDU.AU(Mark P. Neely, Northern Territory Univ.)
Subject: File 4--Internet Society Details

Details of the Internet Society for the readers of CuD:-

   >From: Geoff Huston <G.Huston@aarnet.edu.au

   >The Internet Society Newsletter is a publication of the Internet
   >Society, sent to members of the Internet Society free of charge.

   >To receive a subscription you need to join the Internet Society
   >as a personal member. Regular membership is $70 US p.a. and
   >student membership is $25 US p.a. The Internet Society is a
   >non-profit professional society whose objective
   >is facilitate and support the technical evolution of the
   >Internet  as a research and education infrastructure.

   >To join send you details (name, address, email) to the Internet
   >Society at
   >isoc@nri.reston.va.us

   >cheers

   >Geoff Huston

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 92 21:08:09 EDT
From: Gordon Meyer <72307.1502@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: File 5--GEnie RTC with Hafner (Co-author of CYBERPUNK)

  ______________________________________________________
 |                                                      |
 |  The Public Forum * NonProfit Connection RoundTable  |______
 |______________________________________________________|      |
   |  Sysops' GE Mail: PF$    RTC Sunday 9pm EDT:  MOVE 545;2  |______
   |___________________________________________________________|      |
     |  News, Current Events, Government, Societal Issues, Nonprofits |
     |________________________________________________________________|

                   Real-time Conference on Cyberpunk
                                  with
                              Katie Hafner
                             (May 24, 1992)
  ====================================================================

      (C) 1992 by GEnie (R) and Public Forum*NonProfit Connection

           This file may be distributed only in its entirety
                      and with this notice intact.


CYBERPUNK: Outlaws and Hackers on the Computer Frontier has intrigued
everyone from William (Neuromancer) Gibson to Mitch (Lotus Development)
Kapor.

On May 24 at 9pm ET, author Katie Hafner joined us to talk about the
social consequences of computer networks and the communities that have
grown up around them.  The government has both raided local BBSs and
solicited proposals for a "weaponized virus." What rules of the road
would you make for computer networks? Former news editor of Data
Communications magazine, Katie was correspondent for Business Week
specializing in technology and computers.  A graduate of the University
of California at Santa Barbara, with an M.A. from Columbia University
School of Journalism, she's now working on a book about German
reunification. The New York Times' John Markoff is co-author of
Cyberpunk.

This RTC is the third in the Public Forum's month-long program on
Technology and Society.  Our next RTC is May 31. And don't miss lively
discussion of Science, Technology and Society in bulletin board category
7, and check out the files on technology and society in our library.
See Cat 7/Topic 1 for details.

An electronic meeting place for friends, family and national "town
meetings," GEnie is an international online computer network for
information, education and entertainment. For under $5.00/month, GEnie
offers over 50 special interest bulletin boards and unlimited electronic
mail at no extra charge during evenings, weekends and holidays. GEnie is
offered by GE Information Services, a division of General Electric
Company.

In the Public Forum*NonProfit Connection, thousands of people every day
discuss politics and a wide range of social and nonprofit issues.  A
neutral arena for all points of view, the PF*NPC is presented by Public
Interest Media, a nonprofit organization devoted to empowering people
through the socially productive use of information and communication
technology. For more information about GEnie or the Public Forum, call
1-800-638-9636 or send electronic mail to tsherman@igc.org.

 To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem in HALF DUPLEX)
 800-638-8369.  Upon connection, type HHH.  At the U#= prompt, type
 XTX88367,GENIE <RETURN>.  The system will prompt you for information.

 ====================================================================

        __________________________________________________________
    -=((    The Public Forum * NonProfit Connection RoundTable    ))=-
  -==(((           GEnie Page 545 - Keywords PF or NPC            )))==-
    -=((__________________________________________________________))=-



<SHERRY.PF>              I'd like to welcome everyone to the RTC. Katie, why
			 don't you say a few words and introduce yourself.

<[Katie] PRESS11>        let's see... john markoff (my husband) and i wrote
                         cyberpunk over a period... of about three years and
                         it came out last summer. but the book isn't cheap, so
                         luckily, the papberback is coming out next month
                         let's see...what else?....oh yes, now i'm living in
                         berlin... most of the time, working on a second book.

<SHERMAN>                Let me explain the process here . . . Before we get
			 started, a word about the process . . . At the
			 beginning, only Katie and people asking questions
			 will be able to talk so that everyone gets a turn . .
                         If you have a question, type /RAI to raise your
			 hand. I'll call on you in order. Please type your
			 question, but DON'T hit <return> to send it. When
			 you're called on, THEN hit <return> to send your
			 question quickly . . . so we'll have time for more
			 questions . . . It's good to use three periods if you
			 have more to say and to put GA for "go ahead" at the
			 end of a final phrase . . . So let's see those
			 /RAIsed hands and I'll start calling on you! GA

<[Darryl] D.JENT>        Katie, did you actually meet Kevin Mitnick & the
			 others in your book ga

<[Katie] PRESS11>        yes. i met everyone in the book. the only one who
			 didn't cooperate with the book was kevin... kevin is
			 the hacker we wrote about in the first section of the
			 book... a member of an l.a. gang of phone phreaks and
			 hackers called the roscoe gang... he wanted to be
			 paid to talk to us, and i explained to him (and his
			 grandmother, who was working as his agent...) that
			 journalists, for obvious ethical reasons, do not (if
			 they're good journalists, that is)... pay sources fo
			 information.

<[Gene] G.STOVER>        When do you think cyberspace will be available to the
			 general public? What part will NREN and ISDN play in
			 this? <ga>

<[Katie] PRESS11>        it already is... the more bandwidth, the more
			 cyberspace! ga

<SHERMAN>                After a few more people have had a chance to ask
			 questions . . . I'll give everyone a second or third
			 or fourthchance . . . <grin> Richard, your question?

<[Richard] R.GILLIAM3>   Who was the publisher for each edition?

<[Katie] PRESS11>        simon & schuster did the hardcover, and an imprint of
                         S&S... called Touchstone is doing the paperback. ga

<[Richard] R.GILLIAM3>   Who was your editor at the publishing house. (Sorry
			 for my unfamiliarity with the commands)

<[Katie] PRESS11>        my editor? a very nice guy who doesn't know a lot
                         about technology named Bob Bender ga

<SHERRY.PF>              Katie, I read _The Cuckoo's Egg_, and was fascinated
			 -- and appalled. Have The Powers That Be become any
			 more security conscious, or at least any more willing
			 to listen in the event something like that happens
			 again?

<[Katie] PRESS11>        it's still pretty bad, security-wise out there...
			 there are lots of loopholes. everywhere. ga

<[2] eric] E.SHCHNEIDER> did he give you permission to write about him ..... m

<[Katie] PRESS11>        no. no one gave us permission. we're journalists, not
			 movie producers. ga

<[Andrea] A.DUDA>        We read about the really sensational cases of
			 hackers. How much of a problem are they overall? And
			 in trying to limit their activities, do we lose more
			 than we gain (since we limit other, legitimate, users
			 as well)?

<[Katie] PRESS11>        i think that the press reports that blow the hacking
			 incidents out of proportion.... do a real disservice
			 to society... that is, i think that now the public at
			 large has an exaggerated fear of hackers. in the
			 book... we tried to write very realistically about
			 what really happened... and i do think that we're
			 treading aline between restricting access too much
			 and leaving systems too wide open. ga

<[Darryl] D.JENT>        Katie, What was your feelings about the chaos club in
                         Germany?

<[Katie] PRESS11>        i like them a lot... they're very different from
                         hackers in the united states, and that was kind of
                         interesting...

<[Darryl] D.JENT>        How much of their activities did you get to witness
			 ga

<[Katie] PRESS11>        wau holland, the founder of chaos, is an old 60's
			 radical, and a liberatarian who's categorically
			 opposed to authority ga

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Katie, did you see Darryl's second qeustion -- how
			 much of their activities did you get to witness?

<[Katie] PRESS11>        oops. sorry... yeah. i hung out with pengo in berlin
			 for several weeks... and of course i witnessed quite
			 a bit... he was good (at hacking, that is), but more
			 of a talker, really, than anything else... the really
			 talented one in that group was probably markus hess,
			 the one who was in the berkeley computers and who
			 gave cliff stoll such a heart attack... and in the
			 end, they all got scared and ratted on each other and
			 three of them went to jail (well, hess's parents
			 bailed him out) ga

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Katie, who do you think is going to draw that line
			 between too little restriction and too much? What
			 role does the public play? ga

<[Katie] PRESS11>        i guess we have to draw the line... i mean, we are
			 all sitting in cyberspace right now, and we're pretty
			 much respecting the rules of the road... and if we
			 want to keep the feds from telling us what we can and
			 cannot do in cyberspace then we have to come up with
			 rules that are acceptable to us and to them. ga

<[Andrea] A.DUDA>        How do you think the "rules of the road" will change
			 when commercial firms become more evident with NREN?
			 Are they more concerned about security than
			 universities, etc.?

<[Katie] PRESS11>        in a way it's too bad because anything that goes
			 commercial takes on a formal flavor that can be
			 restrictive... but that's not always the case... but
			 yes, they are concerned about security, particularly
			 because of all the security firms out there telling
			 them they should be. ga

<[Andrea] A.DUDA>        One of the things I like about the Internet is being
			 able to go to various computers for information. Do
			 you think the whole system will become more
			 restrictive to accommodate the commercial firms?

<[Katie] PRESS11>        new technology such as cryptography... will tend to
			 make commercialization work because it will make
			 breaking into systems more difficult. ga

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Katie, would you say something about the differences
			 between European and US regulations governing
			 security and privacy -- and the potential for
			 problems with the European Community?

<[Katie] PRESS11>        the europeans have always (like in all things) been a
			 little bit behind the u.s.... in hacking laws. the
			 most interesting thing about it is that as soon as a
			 country makes it illegal to break into computers...
			 then the hacking drops precipitously (or maybe the
			 underground goes deeper)... the international folks
			 at the ec are already trying to come up with uniform
			 laws governing computer security throughout the
			 european community. yawn. ga

<[Phillip] P.MAY2>       katie, do you feel there is a greater potential for
			 abuse of systems from "insiders", i.e. employees of
			 companies who implement the systems, or outsiders
			 like those described in you r book .? ga

<[Katie] PRESS11>        of course there is... it's pretty widely known that
			 almost all of the white-collar crime out there that
			 uses computers and is most expensive to business is
			 committed by insiders... but companies get very
			 embarrassed by that... and they tend not to report
			 those crimes... they'd rather report crimes that seem
			 to be committed by juvenile delinquents... not their
			 own people! ga

<[Darryl] D.JENT>        What is nren & Katie what is the new book about. More
			 hackers or what?... I loved your first book, read it
			 in two days ga

<[Katie] PRESS11>        national research and education network, designed to
			 send data above a gigabit... and tie all the nation's
			 supercomputer centers together and it's federally
			 funded. the book i'm working on now... is about a
			 particular house in gemrany. just over the glienicker
			 bride (where all the spies used to be exchanged)...
			 in berlin. nothing to do with computers.

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Darryl, check out the article from the Whole Earth
			 Review about data highways; it's in our file library
			 (with permission, of course :-) Darryl, follow up
			 question?

<[Darryl] D.JENT>        Sounds interesting still, I'll thanks

<[Richard] R.GILLIAM3>   Stock exchanges and currency exchanges are close to
			 24 hour world-wide operation. How possible will it be
			 for insiders to undetectable manipulate the
			 markets?GA

<[Katie] PRESS11>        quite possible. have you heard about the $170
			 million or so that disappeared mysteriously from
			 volkswagen's books?... this happened a few years
			 ago. ga

<[Richard] R.GILLIAM3>   No. I haven't heard the VW story. I think the
			 potential for financial hacking is enormous GA

<[Katie] PRESS11>        i think you're absolutely right... and i think we
			 (the public) only hear about a very small fraction of
			 the stuff that goes on. ga

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Before we move into open discussion, I want to take a
                         second to . . . thank all of you for your question
                         and, especially, . . . to thank Katie for joining us!

<[Katie] PRESS11>        it was fun! sorry about all my typing blunders :-)

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          And now for the winners of our contest . . . Thanks
                         to Simon & Schuster, the publishers of CYBERPUNK, for
                         donating four copies of the book to our contest
                         winners. Thanks to everyone for submitting such
                         imaginative entries!. . . The envelope please . . .

                         For the best scenarios describing constructive uses
                         of hacking, T.CAMPBELL11 and M.VANCE1. And for
                         destructive uses, S.CURTISIII1 and D.TAMPLIN.
                         Congratulations to Tim, Vance, Stan and David! I'll
                         now open the room so that all of us can type . . .

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          No one counts typing blunders, Katie, not in here!

<[Richard] R.GILLIAM3>   RTC spell-checkers. The next cyber-frontier! <g>

<[Andrea] A.DUDA>        Are the contest winners all in one place where we can
			 read them?

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Yes, the contest entries are in Cat 7/Topics 16 and
                         17, except . . . for one that was sent by e-mail
                         because the author thought it too dangerous to post
                         in public

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Katie, what do you think about the FBI's interest in
			 legislation requiring the phone companies to make
                         digital phone transmission accessible to them? (Did
                         you see Marc and Janlori on Koppel's program the
                         other night?)

<[Katie] PRESS11>        it's the stupidest thing i've ever heard of. it will
			 never work... people will just buy cheap encryption.

<[Darryl] D.JENT>        Katie, have you meet meet William Gibson & How
			 surprised are you at the way his books have become
			 reality?

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Hmmm, say a little more about that, would you?

<[Katie] PRESS11>        i've talked to him on the phone. i'd like to meet
			 him, though. he's extremely tall, i hear ... but what
			 part has become reality? ga

<[Fomalhaut] J.PAXSON>   Darryl, pray that the world itself does not become
			 that horrible.

<[Katie] PRESS11>        you're not kidding.

<[Darryl] D.JENT>        I was meaning the way virtual reality is shaping

<[Darryl] D.JENT>        Most of what I've read about VR lately was in his
			 books

<[Fomalhaut] J.PAXSON>   I've had some success with virtual reality using
			 x-specs and stereo headphones.

<[Richard] R.GILLIAM3>   Experiment surgery has been done for the hearing
			 impaired, wiring the bones between the ear and the
			 brain so that some sound can be heard. This is, I
			 suggest, a rudimentary form of the cyber-wiring that
			 is certain to come.

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Richard, will they just wire digital jacks where our
			 ears used to be?

<[Katie] PRESS11>        that's been done for the blind, too.

<[Andrea] A.DUDA>        Interesting thought, Richard. Imagine what happens if
			 someone messes with that!

<SHERRY.PF>              I heard that on a talk show just this morning,
			 Richard!

<[Richard] R.GILLIAM3>   Yes, Tom. Expect that eventually it will be done by
			 radio receivers, not wires.

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Will there be an OFF switch?

<[Richard] R.GILLIAM3>   Let's hope so, Tom

<SHERRY.PF>              That'll depend on whether or not we end up in 1984 or
			 Brave New World.

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Is this what Gene meant when he said we'd all be on
			 the network?

<[Darryl] D.JENT>        Katie, what is the wildest computer lab you have
			 visited as far as technologically advanced?

<[Richard] R.GILLIAM3>   I've often thought it was just a question of who got
			 us first---the cyberpunks or the genetic engineers.
			 Eventually it will be both.

<[Katie] PRESS11>        it's a toss-up between the media lab and xerox parc

<[Darryl] D.JENT>        It that the media lab at MIT?

<SHERRY.PF>              Is that Xerox in Leesburg, VA?

<[Katie] PRESS11>        yeah, and xerox parc in palo alto

<SHERRY.PF>              I haven't been to Palo Alto, but I've been to
			 Leesburg. It's pretty wild too. ;)

<[Darryl] D.JENT>        hAVE YOU MET mARVIN mINSKY at MIT, He has wrote some
			 wild books about the brain & AI

<[Katie] PRESS11>        yes. he's a wild guy. you should meet his daughter

<[Darryl] D.JENT>        Tom, I didn't get a chance to, but will I loved his
			 book Society of the Mind.

<[Katie] PRESS11>        i've never read that.

<[Darryl] D.JENT>        It's about using Artificial Intelligence & trying to
			 mimic the brain

<[Darryl] D.JENT>        About how the easiest things we do as humans are the
			 hardest to get a computer to do.

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Katie's already stayed longer than I asked and so . .
                         I want to thank her again for joining us and . . . to
                         remind all of you that Jerry Berman, formerly of the
                         ACLU and now . . . head of the D.C. office of the
                         Electronic Frontier Foundation will . . . be our
                         guest next Sunday! . . . Do join us and, during the
                         week, . . . take a minute to add your thoughts to our
                         bulletin board discussion about . . . technology and
                         society in Category 7 . . . All of you . . . are
                         welcome to stay as long as you like. Katie. thanks
                         again!

<[Darryl] D.JENT>        Such as moving Thanks, Katie, will have to read your
                         new book. Good luck

<[Richard] R.GILLIAM3>   Thanks Katie, Tom. Enjoyed the RTC. Looking forward
			 to visiting again.

<SHERRY.PF>              You can get to the PF*NPC bulletin board on page
			 8011;1 -- it's a Basic service.


    -----# Participants #-----

<[Andrea] A.DUDA>
<[Darryl] D.JENT>
<[Dave] D.THOMPSON74>
<[2] eric] E.SHCHNEIDER>
<[Gene] G.STOVER>
<[Fomalhaut] J.PAXSON>
<J.PRESLEY1>
<[Lamont] L.INGALLS>
<MCFARMER>
<[Phillip] P.MAY2>
<[Katie] PRESS11>
<[Richard] R.GILLIAM3>
<[Tom] SHERMAN>
<SHERRY.PF>
<[Tom] T.BARKER6>

   __________________________________________________________________
  |  Rights & responsibilities, government, politics, minority civil |_
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  |  environment, international issues, gay/lesbian/bisexual issues, | |
  |       women & men, parenting, youth organizations and more!      | |
  |__________________________________________________________________| |
    |__________________________________________________________________|

       ________             PF$  PF*NPC Sysops      _____________
      |        |_                                  | Weekly RTC: |_
      | The    | |      SHERMAN  Tom Sherman       | 9pm Eastern | |
      | PF*NPC | |        SCOTT  Scott Reed        | on Sundays! | |
      | Staff: | |     CHERNOFF  Paul Chernoff     | Type M545;2 | |
      |________| |     GRAFFITI  Ric Helton        |_____________| |
        |________|       SHERRY  Sherry              |_____________|

        __________________________________________________________
    -=((    The Public Forum * NonProfit Connection RoundTable    ))=-
  -==(((           GEnie Page 545 - Keywords PF or NPC            )))==-
    -=((__________________________________________________________))=-


 |
 | This listing was generated by LRTC Version 1.00
 | (C)opyright by Hartmut W. Malzahn, 1991. All rights reserved.
 |

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End of Computer Underground Digest #4.25
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