From: Digestifier To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu Reply-To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu Date: Mon, 30 Aug 93 12:13:14 EDT Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #72 Linux-Misc Digest #72, Volume #1 Mon, 30 Aug 93 12:13:14 EDT Contents: Re: SLS considered harmful (wasRe: Bashing Peter (Michael Chapman K8/EIS1. Tel. 1662) Re: SLS considered harmful (wasRe: Bashing Peter MacDonald) (Lars Wirzenius) Re: 64K Vs 128K Cache:-is difference worth $40.00 (Wolfgang Jung) Re: NT versus Linux (Gary Houston) Re: Zyxel modems & Linux (Wolfgang Jung) ASETUP4.ARJ (Mike Strock) Re: High speed modems & Linux --- UUCP throughput (John Henders) Linux and Tcsh: Soooo Funny!! (A Joke) Re: NT versus Linux (Rich Mulvey) Re: postscript (Byron A Jeff) None (mail relay) (Tim Towers) None (mail relay) (Tim Towers) Re: NT versus Linux (Tim Towers) Linux Systems Laboratories ??? (Dan Newcombe) Re: None (mail relay) (David C. Niemi) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mchapman@argos.eis (Michael Chapman K8/EIS1. Tel. 1662) Subject: Re: SLS considered harmful (wasRe: Bashing Peter Date: 30 Aug 93 07:45:25 GMT Reply-To: mchapman@argos.eis In article ijackson@nyx.cs.du.edu, ijackson@nyx.cs.du.edu (Ian Jackson) writes: >MCC is a very good starting point; from the experiences >I've had with going to see other people's Linux installations locally >(often resulting in curses after 5 minutes or so) it is almost always >a better idea for even a complete newbie to put together their system >by untarring a bunch of separate packages over the top of MCC. > Many of us (most of the Linux community?) don't have the luxury of being able to easily get hold of any separate packages. We don't have ftp, I don't even have a modem on my Linux machine. From work I can e-mail, read news etc, but not ftp, and I cannot write a floppy disk (because the management here forbids floppies because of virus paranoia). Some Linux users I know of to not have any (electronic) access to the outside world. For people in my situtation, and I am not alone, the SLS distribution is much better than MCC precisely because more or less everything is there. I have the SLS 1.01 release on CD and I am VERY PLEASED with it. What is good for you is not necessarily the best for everyone else. There is a lot of stuff in SLS, packages change and updates come in the Linux world at break neck speed and it is a mamouth task to keep SLS anything like upto date and working. I think Peter does a GREAT but (and I think he will be the first to admit) not quite perfect job. SLS has done a great service to the Linux community. Because of it there are many 1000's more Linux users now than there would have been otherwise. Please do not forget those of us (the majority??) who do not have the luxury of being able to ftp anything from anywhere. We like to be able to get everything at one go for as few $$ as possible. SLS has made the Linux community much bigger than it otherwise would have been. Do not bash it until you can do better. Do not bash something which is free. A Linux user (and x friends of mine) thanks to SLS, Mike ============================================================================== Mike Chapman _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ mchapman@eis.k8.rt.bosch.de _/_/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ fax: (+49) 7121/35-1746 _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ tel: (+49) 7121/35-1662 _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ ------------------------------ From: wirzeniu@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Lars Wirzenius) Subject: Re: SLS considered harmful (wasRe: Bashing Peter MacDonald) Date: 30 Aug 1993 11:04:25 +0300 pmacdona@sanjuan (Peter MacDonald) writes: > It is much easier to criticise and tear down, than it is to > particpate and become the target of criticism. Hear, hear! Even with all the real and perceived problems that SLS has, whining and flaming doesn't do anyone any good. Personal attacks are also not productive. All in all, Peter's done a _lot_ for Linux, even if we don't mention SLS (which _is_ a good thing to have around, even if not perfect and even if there are other distributions that are better in at least some ways). IMHO, the only people with the right to whine and flame, are the people who paid Peter for support. I say the above even if I don't like SLS myself. When I installed my system from scratch recently, I decided to avoid SLS this time (I used MCC), because I had had so many problems with the version of SLS I used to use (a very old version, and the problems may or may not exist today; I don't know, nor do I care). (To avoid giving the wrong impression, I didn't reinstall because SLS was bad, but because my system was getting unusable due to my hacking and mucking around with it. But that's OK, that's part of the reason why I have my own computer anyway, to be able to screw up when I want to. :-) After we agree that attacking SLS or Peter is not a good idea, we don't have to avoid saying negative things about it. That's not the point. There is no problem saying, e.g., "MCC is much better than SLS", or "SLS has a lot of problems and things don't seem to be fixed very quickly", as long as it is said without with the usual amount of viciousness. -- Lars.Wirzenius@helsinki.fi (finger wirzeniu@klaava.helsinki.fi) MS-DOS, you can't live with it, you can live without it. ------------------------------ From: wong@cs.tu-berlin.de (Wolfgang Jung) Subject: Re: 64K Vs 128K Cache:-is difference worth $40.00 Date: 30 Aug 1993 09:44:52 GMT This question came to my mind while reading this thread :-) Does somebody know which Boards (interest: 486 Boards) use which caching scheme ? ie: A list ? Gruss Wolfgang ------------------------------ From: ghouston@stats.govt.nz (Gary Houston) Subject: Re: NT versus Linux Date: Mon, 30 Aug 93 08:06:51 GMT In article muts@compi.hobby.nl (Peter Mutsaers) writes: > >ISO is a complot of companies selling ISO certificates. They make >everyone believe their market chances increase when they have the >certificate. Once they have it, they think they've done so much for it >they demand it also from other companies they do business with. A >clever system to get everyone to want to be qualified, and have a >constant income because of the qualification has to be repeated >constantly. > >And most companies who get the certificate, they only want to use it >as a marketing argument, and are not really interested in better >quality. If you are writing about ISO 9000 here, I'm inclined to agree. It's remarkable how this standard seems to have much higher visibility than any related to computing: obviously there's money to be made. Even for the computer related standards, the process is currently flawed, and must surely be improved through better use of the Internet. In the meantime however, the status of the ISO is the best chance we have of keeping computer companies in line. Computing tends naturally towards standards: common network protocols and file formats and standard versions of programming languages and operating systems make it possible for people to cooperate. Once a technology has reached a given stage of maturity, more is gained by standardization than by innovation. What benefit is gained by having numerous ways in C to put a string into the environment? It is perfectly natural to choose one and make it a "standard". New languages can continue to evolve of course, so the standard will eventually become obsolete. But I don't see how it can be accepted for a company to produce a new operating system, without at least taking all possible measures to remain compatible with standards which exist. I don't think Microsoft would be facing the same hostility to their new OS if they built it on top of POSIX (all of it!) and X Windows. Are these standards really so broken that they need to be redesigned from the ground up, or is this just an attempt to split the computer industry for their own profit? And if the standards *are* broken they need to be fixed or replaced, not abandoned. What will happen in the long term if people continue confusing standards and products? What if they permit companies to flout the standards which exist, in the hope of gaining sufficient market share that their product becomes a standard? Obviously it's a good idea to have shares in such companies: control of a standard is a license to print money. Given a license to print money, it becomes possible to hire an arbitrary number of programmers, thus maintaining the status-quo. Look at how long it took to escape from IBM the last time, and computers are much more important now. It seems highly unlikely that Microsoft will gain the OS monopoly they are after. However even an excessive market share for products like Word and Excell is undesirable, if you need to buy the things before you can access the electronic libraries of the future. ------------------------------ From: wong@cs.tu-berlin.de (Wolfgang Jung) Subject: Re: Zyxel modems & Linux Date: 30 Aug 1993 09:50:00 GMT David Fox (dfox@hip-hop.suvl.ca.us) wrote: : Enrico Scotoni (Enrico.Scotoni@p46.f520.n301.z2.fido.imp.com) wrote: : : hi 2u2, : : > Hi. Zyxel modems were mentioned several times as a good modem : : ^^^^ : : simply the best : : Features: : : - 14'400 bps (V32bis, V42bis) : : - up to 16'800 bps + 19'200 bsp proprietery : : - Fax up to 14'400 bps : : - Voice (your pc turnes into a phone-answring machine) : Yum. I've heard something about a thing called 'modgetty' or is it : 'mgetty'? that you can use to run on Linux and use the box as a : phone answering machine without any extra hardware. This is nice, but : where to get the needed files? It's definitly modgetty which supports 3 Things with the ZyXEL modems (All Models with the Firmware >5.00,) It is able to send FAX, Receive FAX, Receive Data, Send Data, Receive VOICE Send VOICE. And it's major Patcher is Olaf Titz You need: The TK/TCL library and the modgetty Source--- both can be dound on ftp.cs.tu-berlin.de (Beware it's a slow line, :-() mgetty is currently (my current information) just doing Data & FAX Gruss Wolfgang ------------------------------ From: mstrock@eskimo.com (Mike Strock) Subject: ASETUP4.ARJ Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1993 04:17:27 GMT I'm looking for a setup program called ASETUP4.ARJ, from Bernd Herd in Germany. It is a public domain setup program for Windows, supposedly available on a BBS in Germany. I've not been able to connect to that bulletin board system, so I thought I'd send a plea out to the Internet. The name of the BBS is Anker Box at 0049-6202-55845 Fidonet node 2:244/7202. I'd like to get ahold of the setup program, if possible. Does anyone in Germany have access to this BBS? If so, could you email me a copy of ASETUP4.ARJ from this bbs? I'd greatly appreciate it. Mike Strock mstrock@eskimo.com * RM 1.1 B0013 * I'm practicing assertiveness. Do you think that's okay? ------------------------------ From: jhenders@jonh.wimsey.bc.ca (John Henders) Subject: Re: High speed modems & Linux --- UUCP throughput Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1993 10:18:24 GMT jim@n5ial.mythical.com (Jim Graham) writes: >One thing you need to be careful about---it's possible (probable) that >these stats include times for transferring the control files, and will >also probably include transfer of files that are really too small to be >of any value in a throughput measure. Well, I was going to send my stats file, but it was rather large. As what it says contradicts what you say, I'll include parts of it. I've clipped a bunch out, but tried to leave seperate calls marked out to show differences, possibly from line noise on some calls. Note the first 3 packages are probably mail, thus the higher throughput. UUCP transmission history: 5760 bytes received( van-bc) in 3.84 sec = 15008 baud, 90.0K / min 142 bytes received( van-bc) in 0.11 sec = 13028 baud, 78.2K / min 4558 bytes received( van-bc) in 2.30 sec = 19835 baud, 119.0K / min 153 bytes received( van-bc) in 0.08 sec = 19615 baud, 117.7K / min 2212 bytes received( van-bc) in 1.13 sec = 19610 baud, 117.7K / min 153 bytes received( van-bc) in 0.08 sec = 18659 baud, 112.0K / min 13184 bytes received( van-bc) in 8.64 sec = 15254 baud, 91.5K / min 142 bytes received( van-bc) in 0.11 sec = 12909 baud, 77.5K / min 34354 bytes received( van-bc) in 22.49 sec = 15275 baud, 91.6K / min 142 bytes received( van-bc) in 0.10 sec = 14490 baud, 86.9K / min 69513 bytes received( van-bc) in 46.99 sec = 14793 baud, 88.8K / min 142 bytes received( van-bc) in 0.11 sec = 12793 baud, 76.8K / min 44905 bytes received( van-bc) in 30.02 sec = 14961 baud, 89.8K / min 142 bytes received( van-bc) in 0.11 sec = 13148 baud, 78.9K / min 25311 bytes received( van-bc) in 17.01 sec = 14882 baud, 89.3K / min 142 bytes received( van-bc) in 0.10 sec = 14059 baud, 84.4K / min average speed 13113 baud >It's better to look in your Stats file and look at incoming files that >are *AT LEAST* 200k (and if at all possible, twice that size). Otherwise, >your measurements are, at best, uncertain. I hardly ever see a batch bigger than 100k, most are closer to 60. -- John Henders GO/MU/E d* -p+ c+++ l++ t- m--- s/++ g+ w+++ -x+ ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux From: karel@icce.rug.nl () Subject: Linux and Tcsh: Soooo Funny!! (A Joke) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1993 12:03:20 GMT Hi Linuxers: Just a semi-rancid joke to help you pass the day. You need the tcsh to run this; it won't work for bash users. So, if you do use bash: just startup a (temporary) tcsh and try it out. At the prompt, type: %blow The % is necessary. Then watch for the output.... [Har har.. bangs his head against the wall whilst laughing madly.] -- The ICCE usenet account providing access to usenet news for the ICCE Experience _WERKEN_AAN_DE_GRENZEN_VAN_HET_KUNNEN_ ------------------------------ From: rich@mulvey.com (Rich Mulvey) Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: NT versus Linux Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1993 08:28:11 EDT muts@compi.hobby.nl (Peter Mutsaers) writes: >>> On Thu, 26 Aug 1993 02:27:00 EDT, rich@mulvey.com (Rich Mulvey) >>> said: > > RM> folks? It's a for-profit company. They exist solely to make > RM> money. What's the best way to make money? Kill your > RM> competition, *especially* if they have a better product. Even > RM> if they don't. What exactly does morality have to do with this? > RM> Saying that they are 'evil' is basically saying that people > RM> shouldn't strive to be successful. Gee, maybe we all should > RM> spend the rest of our lives flipping burgers for each other. > RM> But make sure that we avoid trying to provide a decent standard > RM> of living for our families. > > RM> That would be moral by your logic, right? > > Yes, but they go too far. In the end it will damage themselves, like > IBM was damaged too by the almost-monopoly they got in the 70s. First > they get big profits, but the losses will be even bigger. If they damage themselves, that's *their* problem. New companies will spring up to fill the void - just as it has always happened. And *those* companies will probably be lean and mean at first, until *they* kill themselves with bloat. That's the way that capitalism works. > > Every company must fight its competitors, I agree; but they must also > learn self-control. If you kill everyone you get an unhealthy > situation, bad for everyone. But you just said that they are going to kill themselves as well, so what's the problem if they will eliminate themselves as players in the game? > The former eastern-block was a > monopolized economy, the results are clear. Microsoft is evil in a > way, but more so, the buyers are stupid. They fall in a trap with > opened eyes. Blinded by the lies and marketing stories of Microsoft, > and too incompetent to judge the different choices on their technical > merits. There are too many incompetent people on decision-making positions > in companies, especially in automation departments. I have no sympathy for stupid/ignorant people. If they make decisions about software and hardware without doing the proper research, they deserve what they get. It is their responsibility. If a person is so clueless that they think a salesman's sole interest isn't in padding his and his company's pockets, and actually *believe* what the salesman tells them, they shouldn't be making purchasing decisions. And if, as often happens, the company fails because of poor decision-making, then we're only seeing natural selection in action. Which, in the end, is a *good* thing. - Rich -- Rich Mulvey Amateur Radio: N2VDS 787 Elmwood Terrace rich@mulvey.com Rochester, NY 14620 ------------------------------ From: byron@cc.gatech.edu (Byron A Jeff) Subject: Re: postscript Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1993 13:11:45 GMT In article <1993Aug30.005340.6896@wixer.bga.com>, Bob Tadlock wrote: >I need help printing postscript files on a non-postscript printer. >My Cannon Bubble Jet 300 is not a postscript printer, however, >I know that I read somewhere that I caould print postscript >files on my printer using ghostscript or some other utility. >I want to print not only Documents but graphics as well. >Is this possible or am I dreaming??? HELP ! You're awake so don't worry. gs will translate PS, which includes text and graphics, into something your printer understands. There is a bj10e driver in the stock gs release on the distributions so try it first. One caveat: Your printer must have enough memory to print a page at the resolution reqired. 1 megabyte at the very least at 300 DPI. Hope this helps, BAJ --- Another random extraction from the mental bit stream of... Byron A. Jeff - PhD student operating in parallel! Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332 Internet: byron@cc.gatech.edu ------------------------------ From: tim@lorien.demon.co.uk (Tim Towers) Subject: None (mail relay) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1993 11:18:00 +0000 Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc Subject: SLS 1.03 in UK (unofficial) Summary: UK unofficial distribution Distribution: world Organization: Dragonscale Keywords: linux, SLS, distribution Hello Linuxers, After seeing all the offers of people putting Linux onto disk were ALL US based, I figured that someone in the UK should also do this, especially for those with slow modems and the large connection fees within the UK. I will consider putting to 3 1/2" disk anything which can be found on the internet, (for a price :-) ). Seriously folks, the price charged will be 0.1UKP/minute taken for the download and 2 UKP for the handling. If I already have it downloaded (eg SLS) then the cost is 3 UKP/disk. All disks will be checked on my machine, if they prove faulty, then send it back for a replacement. Mail me for special offers eg. SLS 1.03 30 disk set for 60 UKP Info: I am running pl12 and average 1k/s on downloads. I do not expect to make much of a profit - connection costs, admin and postage will probably be all thats covered. I _WILL_ supply Linux support if asked. I would prefer to deal entirely within the UK since this was my reason for starting the service. Since this is a first announcement, my figures are liable to change once I find out how expensive this project is to run. A UKP is a UK pound, which I did not type in as a "" not knowing how it would come out on your terminal. Constructive criticism welcomed. Tim Towers -- +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Tim Towers | Don't believe everything you read | tim@lorien.demon.co.uk | | +44 952 811506 | or everything you write.. | PC Linux machine YEAH! | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ From: tim@lorien.demon.co.uk (Tim Towers) Subject: None (mail relay) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1993 11:16:00 +0000 Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc Subject: Re: oops, I broke the link for /lib/libc.so.4 Summary: shared libs are not all good References: <24eqrm$jkv@belfort.daimi.aau.dk> Organization: Dragonscale Keywords: shared libs rootdisk Okay folks, This happens TOO often, using shared libaries for all utilities is a disaster waiting to happen. I know that binaries which use shared libraries are smaller, but it is a very weak link, as we have seen so often (no, I haven't been bitten - yet). For the extra few k which statically linked binaries take up I think it is reasonable for some commands (ls, ln, rm, mv, cp, mount, tar, zcat) to be statically linked. Since space on bootdisks is so short, a saving may even be made by trading off larger binaries with being able to have NO libraries on the rootdisks. I feel that the SLS and other distributions are the route to fix this, maybe next time :-) In the interim, if anyone is interested I could locate sources for a reasonable subset of commands and post the statically linked binaries (though I pay for bandwidth to access the internet). Suggestions for the minimal commands needed to recover from a trashed library would be welcome, since I would use floppy only - your mileage would differ. Not wingeing - doing something to fix it! Tim Towers ---- +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Tim Towers | Don't believe everything you read | tim@lorien.demon.co.uk | | +44 952 811506 | or everything you write.. | PC Linux machine YEAH! | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy From: tim@lorien.demon.co.uk (Tim Towers) Subject: Re: NT versus Linux Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1993 13:00:00 +0000 In article nathans@pacifier.rain.com (Nathan Silva) writes: > >Yeah, like Microsoft Word! What a piece of junk. How did it ever manage >to be the number one Mac WP for the last eight years? > >Or, that worthless program Excel, that, just by sheer accident manages to >be the number one spreadsheet for Mac and Windows. > >Or Visual Basic -- who needs that? > Hmm, couldn't let this pass... I know that Microsoft Word and Excel aren't the best, most bug-free pieces of software available anywhere, but they work well together, enabling the sum usefulness of the packages to exceed the usefulness of each individual program. IMHO Microsoft have used dubious tactics to slow other manufacturers down in the windows arena and shouldn't be supported for this, however, when I need a graph in my text document I have no choice, since Quattro pro for Windows seems to make a hash of putting graphs into Wordperfect 5.2 (which is even more of a piece of buggy junk than word :-( ). Nothing gets to be the number one application by accident - there has to be some reason. ------------------------------ From: dnewcomb@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Dan Newcombe) Subject: Linux Systems Laboratories ??? Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1993 14:57:22 GMT Does anyone know anything about these people? I saw their add with the Linux logo (looks nice) in the back of UnixReview. I filled out the little Reader Service card and sent it in. Just curious if anyone else knew anything about them. -me ------------------------------ From: niemidc@oasis.gtefsd.com (David C. Niemi) Subject: Re: None (mail relay) Date: 30 Aug 1993 15:58:57 GMT Reply-To: niemidc@oasis.gtefsd.com In article 0003lwC@lorien.demon.co.uk, tim@lorien.demon.co.uk (Tim Towers) writes: > This happens TOO often, using shared libaries for all utilities is a >disaster waiting to happen. > > I know that binaries which use shared libraries are smaller, but it >is a very weak link, as we have seen so often (no, I haven't been >bitten - yet). For the extra few k which statically linked binaries take >up I think it is reasonable for some commands (ls, ln, rm, mv, cp, mount, >tar, zcat) to be statically linked. Since space on bootdisks is so short, >a saving may even be made by trading off larger binaries with being able >to have NO libraries on the rootdisks. Dang, I was just about to say that!!!! The key commands in my book are "mv", "ln", "sync", "halt", "mount" and suchlike. I can theoretically do without the rest, but they are nice too. If we at least had "mv" statically linked, it would be far easier to upgrade libc.so (hint,hint). DCN --- David C. Niemi: David.Niemi@oasis.gtegsc.com I have seen th' darkness an' th' pain, Griffy... I have frolicked in th' Devil's Themepark...I have lain down with dawgs... ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is: Internet: Linux-Misc-Request@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.misc) via: Internet: Linux-Misc@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites: nic.funet.fi pub/OS/Linux tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux End of Linux-Misc Digest ******************************