From: Digestifier To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu Reply-To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu Date: Sat, 28 Aug 93 23:13:12 EDT Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #67 Linux-Misc Digest #67, Volume #1 Sat, 28 Aug 93 23:13:12 EDT Contents: Re: has anyone done booted a diskless Sun 3 from Linux? (jason bishop) Re: Which is more effecient on Linux? (Andrew R. Tefft) Re: Linux and Corporate America (Peter Mutsaers) Re: NT versus Linux (Peter Mutsaers) Re: NT versus Linux (Peter Mutsaers) Re: Mitsuimi CD comes up on the first try :-) (Peter Mutsaers) Re: NT versus Linux (Peter Mutsaers) Re: WABI available on Linux or not (Peter Mutsaers) *** PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE POSTING *** (misc-2.01) (Ian Jackson) ghostscript linux device (Hymie!) LINUX HARDWARE POLL (Matthew Dillon) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jason@galaxy.ucr.edu (jason bishop) Subject: Re: has anyone done booted a diskless Sun 3 from Linux? Date: 29 Aug 93 02:09:53 GMT I know where you can get the boot file. Any Sun server on the internet :) Seriously, to have a working sun you would need a server with a working xdm, tftp, bootp, portmap and nfs, right? anything else? And then you could use the sample setups from Xkernel. I have Xkernel running quite successfully here at school if anybody would like help debugging things... in fact im on one right now... xdm to manage X windows on the sun xterminal. tftp daemon on linux to answer tftp requests from sun's boot program. bootp on linux to respond to boot program on sun for its root and swap devices. portmap on linux to respond to NFS mount of root filesytem by sun. NFS for above. Perhaps syslogd on linux might be useful as well... ...Jason -- jason@galaxy.ucr.edu University of California, Riverside Unix Systems Group ------------------------------ From: teffta@cs690-3.erie.ge.com (Andrew R. Tefft) Subject: Re: Which is more effecient on Linux? Date: 29 Aug 93 01:47:40 GMT In article <1993Aug22.234500.16715@cc.gatech.edu> byron@cc.gatech.edu (Byron A Jeff) writes: >In article <1993Aug22.224714.4588@excaliber.uucp>, >Joel M. Hoffman wrote: >>Which is likely to be more efficient: Running several copies of a >>large program one after the other, or all at once. For example, >>suppose I have 10 files to print w/ Ghostscript, on my '386 with 10M. >>Am I better of running 10 copies of GS all at once, or running them >>one after the other? >you run 10 copies of GS simulteanously not only will they share but the >text and clean pages will only be loaded the first time. > But if there is a large amount of unshared data between the processes, and there are enough of them, there will be a ton of swapping, probably worse than if there is just one process taking up that total amount of unshared data. And it seems to me that ghostscript, composing large bitmaps, might just use a lot of memory for unshared data storage. ------------------------------ From: muts@compi.hobby.nl (Peter Mutsaers) Subject: Re: Linux and Corporate America Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1993 12:39:12 GMT >> On 26 Aug 1993 13:06:41 GMT, rick@ee.uwm.edu (Rick Miller - >> Practical Realist) said: RM> Give me a break. I'll lay even odds that *MOST* Sun users have RM> never even *HEARD* of the GNU project!! RM> Don't you get it? NO ONE HAS HEARD OF US!! WE ARE A *TINY* RM> MINORITY. ...and more importantly, we have little if any RM> control over cash flow. I disagree. Have you ever seen numbers on the amount of usenet readership? It is millions. I work in a company that makes their own software, and also regularly hires people from dedicated software houses to make things for us. Most of the guys I see from those companies do know about GNU, quite some even run Linux at home or intend to do so in the future. When I was working at the ESA (european space agency) I took, as always, my 'tape' with me, with my own X11 environment, GNU compilers, emacs, rcs, cvs, and many GNU tools. I want to have the same environment everywhere where I work, so I instist to install all my stuff where I come. The people from ESA were appalled by the quality of all this PD and GNU stuff; they had heard of it however, but had not used it before. Now even there they use a lot of it, and even they run Linux on some PC's and the graphical user interface of several large projects is made in Tcl/Tk, and many people have replaced the standard vi with emacs (if you give people a good introduction almost anyone will love the switch). Gcc is used as standard C compiler (they already knew that because the real-time operating system VxWorks, which is used for embedded control, uses gcc as cross-compiler for VME based CPU boards). I think you are being too pessimistic on the influence of Usenet and the GNU project. -- _______________________________________________________________ Peter Mutsaers, Bunnik (Ut), the Netherlands. Disclaimer: This reflects the official opinions of my employer. ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy From: muts@compi.hobby.nl (Peter Mutsaers) Subject: Re: NT versus Linux Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1993 12:49:11 GMT >> On Thu, 26 Aug 1993 02:27:00 EDT, rich@mulvey.com (Rich Mulvey) >> said: RM> folks? It's a for-profit company. They exist solely to make RM> money. What's the best way to make money? Kill your RM> competition, *especially* if they have a better product. Even RM> if they don't. What exactly does morality have to do with this? RM> Saying that they are 'evil' is basically saying that people RM> shouldn't strive to be successful. Gee, maybe we all should RM> spend the rest of our lives flipping burgers for each other. RM> But make sure that we avoid trying to provide a decent standard RM> of living for our families. RM> That would be moral by your logic, right? Yes, but they go too far. In the end it will damage themselves, like IBM was damaged too by the almost-monopoly they got in the 70s. First they get big profits, but the losses will be even bigger. Every company must fight its competitors, I agree; but they must also learn self-control. If you kill everyone you get an unhealthy situation, bad for everyone. The former eastern-block was a monopolized economy, the results are clear. Microsoft is evil in a way, but more so, the buyers are stupid. They fall in a trap with opened eyes. Blinded by the lies and marketing stories of Microsoft, and too incompetent to judge the different choices on their technical merits. There are too many incompetent people on decision-making positions in companies, especially in automation departments. -- _______________________________________________________________ Peter Mutsaers, Bunnik (Ut), the Netherlands. Disclaimer: This reflects the official opinions of my employer. ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy From: muts@compi.hobby.nl (Peter Mutsaers) Subject: Re: NT versus Linux Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1993 13:01:59 GMT >> On Thu, 26 Aug 93 17:54:47 GMT, terry@cs.weber.edu (A Wizard of >> Earth C) said: AWoEC> In article muts@compi.hobby.nl (Peter Mutsaers) writes: > On 24 Aug 1993 11:35:50 +0100, martin@chemeng.ed.ac.uk (Martin > Spenceley) said: > > MS> I wish Linux every success. Maybe one day I'll port my OPEN LOOK > MS> applications to Linux. The only problem with that is I'd have to > MS> sacific my other bug-bear and buy a PC ;-) > > Port? The chance is very big there will be hardly any porting to do. > Most UNIX applications run out of the box. AWoEC> Porting isn't just compiling so it will run; it includes AWoEC> running a validation suite, and, in many cases, regression AWoEC> testing as well. Depends on what you do with it. If the software will control a spacecraft, OK. If it is an openlook mailtool, or a game, that seems somewhat exaggerated. AWoEC> This is in line with ISO requirements for quality for AWoEC> products to be sold in Europe right now, and many other AWoEC> countries are in the process of adopting the same standards. ISO is a complot of companies selling ISO certificates. They make everyone believe their market chances increase when they have the certificate. Once they have it, they think they've done so much for it they demand it also from other companies they do business with. A clever system to get everyone to want to be qualified, and have a constant income because of the qualification has to be repeated constantly. And most companies who get the certificate, they only want to use it as a marketing argument, and are not really interested in better quality. -- _______________________________________________________________ Peter Mutsaers, Bunnik (Ut), the Netherlands. Disclaimer: This reflects the official opinions of my employer. ------------------------------ From: muts@compi.hobby.nl (Peter Mutsaers) Subject: Re: Mitsuimi CD comes up on the first try :-) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1993 12:42:14 GMT >> On 25 Aug 1993 17:50:45 -0700, vince@victrola.wa.com (Vince Skahan) >> said: VS> [...on the MS-DOS side I found that if you start up an audio Cd with VS> the 'playcd.exe' command and quit out of it without stopping VS> the CD, it keeps on playing the CD :-) - now if I can get linux VS> to do that too...] You don't need that for Linux. That's what we have multitasking for. Put the process in the background. -- _______________________________________________________________ Peter Mutsaers, Bunnik (Ut), the Netherlands. Disclaimer: This reflects the official opinions of my employer. ------------------------------ From: muts@compi.hobby.nl (Peter Mutsaers) Subject: Re: NT versus Linux Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1993 13:11:51 GMT >> On Thu, 26 Aug 93 17:44:30 GMT, terry@cs.weber.edu (A Wizard of >> Earth C) said: AWoEC> False. AWoEC> (1) Abstraction of interface from video hardware from applications AWoEC> means a good video driver in the kernel is a win. AWoEC> Knowledge of the video hardware can be shared between AWoEC> multiple applications (X, PostScript, MGR, DOSEM, AWoEC> etc.) rather than coded into each one. This saves AWoEC> reinventing the line draw each time. Videodriver is not equal to GUI! OK, you put a low level videodriver in the kernel; using these primitives you can still implement muliple GUI's outside of the kernel. A complete GUI is way too big for the kernel, or even for the operating system. I do agree that this could be improved on Linux since even the low level stuff (except for ioports) is in user space. But as long as you stay in X11 (within which still many look-and-feels are available) you won't notice the difference. AWoEC> (4) An integrated GUI buys you a common "look-and-feel" AWoEC> across all your applications -- thus reducing training costs, AWoEC> since training in one application generalizes to others. But what if you don't like the GUI that someone else has chosen for you? I like to make my own trade-off between my personal taste, and using a commonly used thing. Maybe it is more the individualists that like things like Linux, and the sheep that blindly follow Microsoft that like NT etc (just contrary to what the starter of this thread posed a while ago). AWoEC> (5) NT's GUI is not integrated, it is a configuration option AWoEC> that is only turned on by default, not required to be on for AWoEC> the system to operate. It's a false comparison in any case. At least for the time being, there are no alternatives. -- _______________________________________________________________ Peter Mutsaers, Bunnik (Ut), the Netherlands. Disclaimer: This reflects the official opinions of my employer. ------------------------------ From: muts@compi.hobby.nl (Peter Mutsaers) Subject: Re: WABI available on Linux or not Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1993 13:15:40 GMT >> On Thu, 26 Aug 1993 03:13:22 GMT, jcg@world.std.com (James A >> Robinson) said: JAR> Considering they had access to the Windows source code I can JAR> imagine it was a bit easier for them then it will be for us. Not so sure about that. If you look at such code (which must be horrible) you are inclined more to work along the same lines. If you don't have the code but concentrate only on the objective (the system-call interface that must be made available) you are not burdened with this and can make a fresh start. -- _______________________________________________________________ Peter Mutsaers, Bunnik (Ut), the Netherlands. Disclaimer: This reflects the official opinions of my employer. ------------------------------ From: ijackson@nyx.cs.du.edu (Ian Jackson) Subject: *** PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE POSTING *** (misc-2.01) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1993 02:23:02 GMT Please do not post questions to comp.os.linux.misc. If you have a question about Linux you should get and read the Linux Frequently Asked Questions with Answers list from sunsite.unc.edu, in /pub/Linux/docs, or from another Linux FTP site. In particular, read the question `You still haven't answered my question!' Then you should consider posting to comp.os.linux.help - not comp.os.linux.misc. Note that X Windows related questions should go to comp.windows.x.i386unix. The FAQ for this group is available on rtfm.mit.edu in /pub/usenet/news.answers/Intel-Unix-X-faq. Comments on this posting are welcomed - please email me ! -- Ian Jackson (urgent email: iwj10@phx.cam.ac.uk) 35 Molewood Close, Cambridge, CB4 3SR, England; phone: +44 223 327029 ------------------------------ From: hymowitz@hull.cs.jhu.edu (Hymie!) Subject: ghostscript linux device Reply-To: hymowitz@cs.jhu.edu (Hymie!) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1993 02:40:59 GMT hello. i forget where i posted this question last time, but i got no answers so i'm trying again. i think this is the right place. the split still has me confused. anyway, i'm looking for the source code for the linux device for ghostscript. the program compiled fine, but the only device i have is my printer, and it doesn't work quite right yet. the vga/tvga stuff is all msdos-based. somebody must have the source, because the sls version of ghostscript has the linux device built in. i couldn't find it on sunsite or tsx-11. can someone point me in the right direction? thanx in advnace. --hymie hymowitz@cs.jhu.edu =============================================================================== I am godlike... except that he's perfect, and I fuck up all the time. That would be the only real difference between us. --Andy Breckman =============================================================================== ------------------------------ From: dillon@moonshot.west.oic.com (Matthew Dillon) Subject: LINUX HARDWARE POLL Date: 28 Aug 1993 19:39:28 -0700 I'm interested in knowing what kind of hardware configurations people are using under Llinux. Specifically, ethernet controller, hard disk controller, serial port board if applicable, etc.... Not only what hardware works (which you can get out of the FAQ), but also how well it works... cavets or lack of, speed, stability... which is not in the FAQ. It occurs to me that many other people would be interested in this information as well so I have decided to conduct an email poll on it. If you have time, please fill out the below form and email it to poll@moonshot.west.oic.com ... do NOT respond to the net! I will post the complete results after one week of information collection (next saturday). ============================= snip snip snip =========================== POLL ON LINUX HARDWARE CONFIGURATIONS, I/O BOARDS, AND PERCEPTIONS A. This is a poll on linux hardware configurations, I/O boards, and your perceptions as to the reliability of same. If you are a Linux user with knowledge of the hardware configuration of your machine then this poll is for you! B. If you have time, please answer the below questions and send the results to: poll@moonshot.west.oic.com POLL ENDS ON SATURDAY SEPTEMBER 4 1993 12:00 HOURS AT WHICH TIME I WILL POST THE RESULTS TO COMP.OS.LINUX.MISC. COMPLETE RESULTS WILL BE AVAILABLE VIA FTP. ALL RESPONSES WILL BE KEPT PRIVATE (EMAIL HEADERS WILL ALL BE REMOVED) If you do not have the answer to all the questions, please fill in those answers that you do have! This poll is being conducted by Matthew Dillon, dillon@moonshot.west.oic.com . Please email poll answers to poll@moonshot.west.com 0. How would you categorize yourself? Mark appropriate boxes. This will help me organize the answers and my comments to them. 0A. [ ] Joe end user with little technical knowledge and little application knowledge (i.e. only used a few commercial applications in your lifetime). Hint: if you check this box maybe you shouldn't be filling out this survey! 0B. [ ] Joe end user with some application knowledge but no technical (i.e. hardware knowledge) 0C. [ ] end user with a reasonable amount of ability installing boards and using applications but not much on programming languages (shell, interpreted, or compiled). 0D. [ ] power user who knows his way around PC boxes and maybe knows something about programming, but not so much about UNIX. 0E. [ ] power user who has no problem with hardware and can even write shell scripts and modify text files in /etc without too much havoc. 0F. [ ] expert UNIX user 0G. [ ] expert UNIX user, reasonable operating systems / machine management skills. 0H. [ ] power expert UNIX user - highly skilled in most things. 0I. [ ] UNIX guru - highly skilled in all things, experience modifying kernel code, writing device drivers... can pick up random source code you've never seen before and hack on it, etc... Can become an expert on a program after ten minutes of fiddling with it. 0J. [ ] UNIX god - 0I + over 1000 hours of kernel hacking, includes network protocol hacking but not system level hacking. Also must have posted at least one clandestine message to the internet (mail or news) in his/her lifetime and be able to become root on any machine he/she has an account on (in order to fix problems, of course!). Also must have crashed the kernel while hacking at least two dozen times (or you aren't on the leading edge :-)). 1. What type of machine do you have? 1A. Brand (e.g. Dell) -> 1B. Cpu (e.g. 486DX2/66) -> 1C. Math co-processor? (Y/N) -> 1D. Base memory (before any additions) -> 1E. Approximate price -> 1F. EISA or ISA computer? (if not an intel 486) -> 1G. Is this a localbus computer? -> 1H. Is this a portable computer? -> 1I. Please comment on any hardware problems you had installing and using Linux on this platform (i.e. dip switches you had to fool with, etc..) -> -> -> -> 1J. If available, please give an approximate price for this platform NOT including any additional boards you might have purchased for it. PLEASE INDICATE WHAT I/O BOARDS, IF ANY, CAME WITH THE PLATFORM. I am specifically interested in hard disk, video, and ethernet boards. -> -> -> -> 2. What brand of physical hard drive do you have? (the bare drive, not the controller. Do not answer this question if you have a hard-card): 2A. Brand (e.g. Quantum, Fujitsu..) -> 2B. Approximate price of bare drive -> 2C. Please comment on any hardware specific problems you might have had and the reliability of the drive itself. -> -> -> -> 3. What type and brand of hard drive controller do you have? Note that ISA cards can be stuck into EISA busses (reason for question #3B). THIS QUESTION APPLIES ONLY TO CARDS, NOT TO MOTHERBOARD-BASED CONTROLLERS. 3A. Type (e.g. SCSI, IDE, STANDARD) -> 3B. Approximate price -> 3C. Bus Interface (e.g. EISA, ISA) -> 3D. Brand -> 3E. Please comment on any hardware specific problems you might have had and the reliability of the card itself (if you can discern between drive reliability and card reliability :-)) -> -> -> -> 4. What are your perceptions as to the speed of your disk controller? The two categories will help separate out power user from joe user perceptions. You can answer this question even if you have a motherboard-based controller. 4A. If you are NOT using the disk heavily -> -> -> -> 4B. If you ARE using the disk heavily -> -> -> -> 5. Questions related to your video hardware. Answer only if you are running X-Windows (or other graphical environment). These are questions related to your video controller. 5A. on-Card or on-motherboard? -> 5B. Approx. price, include expansion-> 5C. What brand are you using? -> 5D. Bus interface(EISA,LOCAL,ISA..) -> 5E. Screen resolution you use -> 5F. Screen depth / colors -> 5G. How do you perceive the speed of this video controller. If you have made any comparisons with other controllers please indicate relative impressions of BOTH controllers, and list the second controller. -> -> -> -> 5H. Please comment on any installation problems you might have had installing the board. This includes dip switches, kernel patches you may have had to made, and Xconfig problems beyond the normal dumb stuff. Please differentiate between problems installing the board so the system would boot using it and problems installing the board to make it run under X-Windows (or other graphical environment). -> -> -> -> 6. Questions related to your physical screen, only if you have a multi-sync and run it in a high resolution graphics mode (i.e. under X-Windows or other graphical environment under Linux). 6A. What brand of monitor? -> 6B. Approximate price -> 6C. Size, in inches (or approx) -> 6D. Please comment on any problems you may have had interfacing the monitor to your video board, leave blank if you did not have any problems (most people will not have had any problems!) -> -> -> -> 6E. Please comment on special attributes of the monitor you like or dislike (e.g. has a nice stand, display exceptionally dull, etc...) -> -> -> -> 7. Questions related to your ethernet adapter, if you use one. 7A. What brand of adaptor? -> 7B. Approximate price -> 7C. Bus interface (EISA, ISA, ...) -> 7D. Please comment on any installation problems you might have had installing the board, including having to change default IRQ, Kernel reconfigurations, etc. If you had any difficulties getting packets to start running across it beyond the normal dumb stuff, please comment on them. Do not comment on difficulties getting ifconfig or routing setup unless they are hardware-related. -> -> -> -> 7E. Ethernet boards all run at about the same speed, but if you have done any comparisons and found any significant differences, please comment on them below! DMA *can* make a small difference though at 10 MBits/sec even ISA DMA doesn't have much of a problem. -> -> -> -> ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is: Internet: Linux-Misc-Request@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.misc) via: Internet: Linux-Misc@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites: nic.funet.fi pub/OS/Linux tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux End of Linux-Misc Digest ******************************