From: Digestifier To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu Reply-To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu Date: Sat, 16 Oct 93 18:13:16 EDT Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #217 Linux-Misc Digest #217, Volume #1 Sat, 16 Oct 93 18:13:16 EDT Contents: Re: Please do NOT reply mail (Ian Jackson) Re: Now 3.000 counted Linux users (Mark A. Davis) Re: Now 3.000 counted Linux users (Thomas Koenig) Re: Linux Magazines: paper and electronic (Jay Lawrence) Re: Does Library code inhibit commercial software? (Joe Buck) Re: PPP for Linux? Well... almost as good (Michael Will) Re: Now 3.000 counted Linux users (Ed Haymore) Re: CURSES: What are the correct compile line options & #include file? (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) Re: Does Library code inhibit commercial software? (Tim Smith) Re: Pentium, or better: 586 (Brandon S. Allbery) Re: The %&#$@ speaks again -or- An apology (Jason 'KodaK' Balicki) Re: Linux on Macintosh....Does it exist? (Philippe Bonal) Re: Linux Slowly Dying Off (Stephen Balbach) Re: Don't need BogoMips (Brett Michaels) Re: Does Library code inhibit commercial software? (Brandon S. Allbery) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.help From: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson) Subject: Re: Please do NOT reply mail Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1993 21:37:03 GMT (This thread belongs in col.misc, not col.help. Followups are redirected.) In article , Clemens Huebner wrote: >You forget a major point WHY many people ask for a reply by E-Mail: >Many people can't ,for various reasons follow the newsgroups >regularly. So it is much more convenient for them to get an e-mail >reply they can't miss. Note that most of them don't say: dont post a >follow-up. They say they want reply by e-mail for their convenience. >So feel free to post the reply, but honor their wish to get it per >e-mail On the contrary - what they are doing is very rude. If they don't have time to read the newsgroup they won't be able to tell whether their question has been answered. If they then post to the group they are implicitly valuing their time at 10 or 100 times that of each of the readers of col.help. This is extremely discourteous. The real reason answers should be sent by email is so that the questioner can, if appropriate, produce one single summary of the replies they received, rather than there being n dozen postings in the group. PS: Clemens, I had to reformat your posting to make it readable. Try using your editor's reformat paragraph command next time. Postings with lines lengths over 75-80 characters are hard to read. -- Ian Jackson, at home or PGP2 public key available on server. Urgent email: 2 Lexington Close, Cambridge, CB4 3LS, England; phone: +44 223 64238 ------------------------------ From: mark@taylor.wyvern.com (Mark A. Davis) Subject: Re: Now 3.000 counted Linux users Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1993 18:06:18 GMT wayne@backbone.uucp (Wayne Schlitt) writes: >In article <1993Oct15.170650.18416@taylor.wyvern.com> mark@taylor.wyvern.com (Mark A. Davis) writes: >> >> hta@uninett.no (Harald T. Alvestrand) writes: > ^^ >> >Yes, we've reached 3.000 counted! Now if we could only count the uncounted... >> >> Only 3 users?? :) :) >No, he said 3.000 users, not 3,000 users. 3,000 wouldn't make much >sense since you can't have fractional users. >(To those who don't know, many places in the world reverse the meaning >of "," and "." in numbers. There are also differences in the way >times are presented (13:37 vs 1:37pm), and dates 10/15/93 vs 15/10/93 >vs 93/15/10. I hear that there are actually places on the planet that >don't use english as their primary language too. :-) Hopefully Linuxers haven't become too serious and forgot about humor! -- /--------------------------------------------------------------------------\ | Mark A. Davis | Lake Taylor Hospital | Norfolk, VA (804)-461-5001x431 | | Sys.Administrator| Computer Services | mark@taylor.wyvern.com .uucp | \--------------------------------------------------------------------------/ ------------------------------ From: ig25@fg70.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de (Thomas Koenig) Subject: Re: Now 3.000 counted Linux users Date: 16 Oct 1993 18:35:42 GMT wayne@backbone.uucp (Wayne Schlitt) writes: >In article <1993Oct15.170650.18416@taylor.wyvern.com> mark@taylor.wyvern.com (Mark A. Davis) writes: >> >> hta@uninett.no (Harald T. Alvestrand) writes: > ^^ >> >Yes, we've reached 3.000 counted! Now if we could only count the uncounted... >> >> Only 3 users?? :) :) >No, he said 3.000 users, not 3,000 users. 3,000 wouldn't make much >sense since you can't have fractional users. >(To those who don't know, many places in the world reverse the meaning >of "," and "." in numbers. There are also differences in the way >times are presented (13:37 vs 1:37pm), and dates 10/15/93 vs 15/10/93 >vs 93/15/10. I hear that there are actually places on the planet that >don't use english as their primary language too. :-) But how can they be running Linux when it only supports the "C" and "POSIX" locales at the moment? :-) -- Thomas König, ig25@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de, ig25@dkauni2.bitnet The joy of engineering is to find a straight line on a double logarithmic diagram. ------------------------------ From: jjlawren@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Jay Lawrence) Subject: Re: Linux Magazines: paper and electronic Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1993 19:21:31 GMT Just as a small suggestion....if you want to make the magazine electroncically available to make the origial document easily hypertextified - into HTML. This was you can easily put it up on the web, it is easy to browse and you will generate alot of attention because e-journals are still kinda rare on the web, but definately welcome. There is a LaTex->html convertor that does a really nice job...but still the whole authoring issue is a big one to say the lest! If you need contributors, please keep me in mind (e-mail). Thanks, Jay Lawrence ------------------------------ From: jbuck@synopsys.com (Joe Buck) Subject: Re: Does Library code inhibit commercial software? Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1993 19:38:00 GMT david@omphalos.equinox.gen.nz (David Liebert) writes: >I may be completely wrong, but wouldn't the Gnu Copyleft prohibit >binary distributions of commercial software for Linux? You're completely wrong. The libraries are covered by the GLPL, not the GPL, so proprietary applications may link to them. In fact, Richard Stallman, head of the Free Software Foundation and author (together with his lawyers) of the GPL and LGPL, has said publicly, several times, that commercial binaries and things like the proprietary Motif library are legal under OSes with GPLed kernels and LGPLed libraries like Linux and the (as yet vaporware) GNU HURD system. There are already several proprietary programs and libraries for Linux (the Motif libraries are probably the most successful such product so far). However, the kernel is under the GPL, so at least under the FSF interpretation it's against the rules to ship proprietary code that links directly to the kernel (such as device drivers). However, this is a topic that people disagree on: some claim that the GPL has no power to legally forbid someone from shipping a proprietary device driver. Summary of FSF argument: kernel+device driver is a derivative work of the kernel, so GPL applies. Opponents' argument: I'm shipping only the device driver and it is my code: I can do what I want. FSF comeback: in developing it, you had Linux+device driver together. After shipping that is what your customer has -- so you have in effect distributed a derivative work. Opponents' comeback: but what about cases like Sega vs Accolade? FSF folks: that doesn't apply because blah blah blah ... and on and on for hundreds of messages. Given this dispute over what the law is, I think people of good will should fall back to honoring the intent of people like Linus, RMS, and others who've given you so much and keep the kernel and device driver code free, even if some lawyer tells you you could get away with not honoring the letter of the GPL. The interests of the Linux community are best served by convincing the manufacturers of devices and peripherals to provide enough information so that others can write programs that control them. Companies that want to hide all this information and sell their own proprietary device drivers (typically DOS-only) should be avoided. >I can't imagine any developers would want to write their own complete >library for linux, and there aren't any commercial C compilers/libraries >for linux around that I know of. They don't need to: commercial programs may use the Linux libraries and be compiled by the GNU compilers. No problem. -- -- Joe Buck jbuck@synopsys.com Posting from but not speaking for Synopsys, Inc. Formerly jbuck@.eecs.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ From: michaelw@desaster.hanse.de (Michael Will) Subject: Re: PPP for Linux? Well... almost as good Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1993 12:32:24 GMT rene@renux.frmug.fr.net (Rene COUGNENC) writes: >"René Cougnenc" or "Rémy Card". ( Sorry for the 8bits chars, which will >probably be stripped somewhere in the net...) At least here in germany they came out perfectly. No user would use a os here that requires it to say "Mueller" instead of "Müller". Cheers, Michael Will -- Michael Will Linux - share and enjoy :-) Life is not there if you can't share it... Hazel'O'Connor Breaking Glass Happily using Linux 0.99p12 with X11R5, \LaTeX, cnews/nn/uucp and: PGP! !!! new mailadress: will@peanuts.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de !!! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Oct 93 14:42:15 MDT From: haymoree@hawaii.et.byu.edu (Ed Haymore) Subject: Re: Now 3.000 counted Linux users Wayne Schlitt (wayne@backbone.uucp) wrote: | vs 93/15/10. I hear that there are actually places on the planet that | don't use english as their primary language too. :-) There sure are -- half of my computer manuals are written there. :) -- Ed Haymore ed@byu.edu ------------------------------ From: zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) Subject: Re: CURSES: What are the correct compile line options & #include file? Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1993 20:13:20 GMT In article <2CBF2A19.17074@news.service.uci.edu> jstern@aris.ss.uci.edu (Jeff Stern) writes: >Hi sorry to post 2x on same subject but our rn doesnt' allow me to >cancel articles and repost.. > >Just wanted to say I read the docs and have indeed tried the same >command line as recommended there, with approp. header: > >gcc -lncurses -o sample sample.c The above line should read: gcc -o sample sample.c -lcurses Libraries HAVE to be at the end and they are order sensitive. >(with #include ) > >=========================================================================== >Jeff Stern >"Timex Sinclair UNIX.. coming soon to a dealer near you." >=========================================================================== -- --- Zeyd M. Ben-Halim zmbenhal@netcom.com 10479 1/4 Santa Monica Blvd, LA, CA, 90025 (310) 470-0281 ------------------------------ From: tzs@stein2.u.washington.edu (Tim Smith) Subject: Re: Does Library code inhibit commercial software? Date: 16 Oct 1993 21:15:25 GMT Joe Buck wrote: >Summary of FSF argument: kernel+device driver is a derivative work of the >kernel, so GPL applies. Opponents' argument: I'm shipping only the device >driver and it is my code: I can do what I want. FSF comeback: in developing >it, you had Linux+device driver together. After shipping that is what your >customer has -- so you have in effect distributed a derivative work. >Opponents' comeback: but what about cases like Sega vs Accolade? FSF folks: >that doesn't apply because blah blah blah ... and on and on for hundreds >of messages. That's a pretty good summary, except for these things (assume an "as far as I know" in front of each, because I may have missed the answers to these): (1) Nintendo vs. Galoob is the case that really blows a hole in the FSF argument. I don't think they've answered this one. (2) I don't think they've posted an answer to the Sega vs. Accolade case, either. (3) It seems that in many arguments, they treat "derivative work" as English, rather than as a legal term of art. This leads to misconclusions. --Tim Smith ------------------------------ From: bsa@kf8nh.wariat.org (Brandon S. Allbery) Subject: Re: Pentium, or better: 586 Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1993 21:16:02 GMT In article <29nbrm$57h@mailgzrz.TU-Berlin.DE> wpp@marie.physik.tu-berlin.de (Kai Petzke) writes: >- One by emulating an 386. This mode is slow. However, library calls are > still done in ALPHA mode, so you won't see the low speed on a word processor > (which spends most of the time calling graphical libraries), but you will > see it in a programme, that does extensive calculations (like 3D rendering). No wonder Microsoft is upset about Wabi: they want to sell their own version! :-) (Wabi-NT: it is to throw up...) ++Brandon -- Brandon S. Allbery kf8nh@kf8nh.ampr.org bsa@kf8nh.wariat.org "MSDOS didn't get as bad as it is overnight -- it took over ten years of careful development." ---dmeggins@aix1.uottawa.ca ------------------------------ From: kodak@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Jason 'KodaK' Balicki) Subject: Re: The %&#$@ speaks again -or- An apology Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1993 20:50:40 GMT rich@mulvey.com writes: > If the instructor is giving the answer, or even the location of the >answer, he should be fired. Why? Because he is NOT doing his job, which Please tell me, kind sir, what an instructor is going to do if he doesn't instruct? How do you expect the students to learn for themselves if you don't give them the minimal tools to do that? In this case, the minimal tool is a pointer to the FAQ. I agree with you that students (and Linux users) should think for themselves, but there is nothing wrong with helping them along. There are some students out there who don't desire to learn and are only at school at mommy and daddies urging. However, people who want to run Linux are, on average, the fast learning hacker types. >: Besides, have you ever heard of common curtisy? ^^^^^^^ duh. I read this 10 times. > Yes. Have you ever heard of responsibility? Uh, huh. I have a responsibilty to take care of myself and my wife. I don't have a responsibilty to flame people. That's a leisure time activity. :) >You should try reading Renaissance literature. The insult was raised to >a high art form. Ever read Shakespeare? I wouldn't call him incapable, >by any measure. Yes, I have read Shakespeare, and more recently Douglas Adams ( :) ) both of whom are exelent insultants. Nevertheless, that was during Renaissance, not today, and "fcuk noff u luser" does not qualify as art. IMHO, of course. > Irrelevant in the case of Linux. How many people here are using >commercial software on thier Linux machines? How many are using the >plethora of PD software available for it? How in the world can you >make that statement when there are tens of thousands of applications on >the net whose authors have received NO COMPENSATION WHATSOEVER? Irrelevant? I can't belive that you don't want commercial quality apps. PD software is not commercial quality. Most shareware is, though. More people will be enticed to write (or port) shareware to Linux if there is a big user base. More people begat more money begat more software begat more people. . . >: Have you ever wondered how many budding hackers you may have shoved away >: with your flaming? > Then it's their loss, not ours. That is not true. You may have turned away the one with the talent to write a decent word processor, or other Linux app. You may have turned away the person who has the means to get Linux much needed positive publicity. You may have turned away the person who adds compressed file system support to Linux. You never know. >: > As I said above, it's preferable to induce them to use their minds. >: Yes, it is. It's more effective to tell them where to find the information >: than it is to flame them. Are you so trigger happy that you can't see that? > Again, you have just helped to train them to be vegetables. Can't you >see that? If they turn into vegetables it's their loss, not ours. (Don't you hate parroting?) >rich@mulvey.com "Ignorance should be painful." I realise that you aren't going to change. However be aware that I, for one, and probably others will continue to help new users in the Linux community. People are allowed mistakes, deities know I have made a few, that doesn't make them any less of a person though. I'm not going to reply to any more postings. We aren't getting, nor are we going, anywhere. If you wish to continue correspondance, email. I have set followups to me. -- Jason Balicki | kodak@mentor.cc.purdue.edu ------------------------------ From: philb@blips.frmug.fr.net (Philippe Bonal) Subject: Re: Linux on Macintosh....Does it exist? Date: Sat, 16 Oct 93 17:10:02 +0100 Reply-To: philb@frmug.fr.net atai@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (Andy Tai) writes: > > > Hi, I heard that Linux is being ported to the Apple Macintosh. I > wonder what is the current status? Thanks for any info. > > I think it was a joke for the 1st April 93. +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ philb@frmug.fr.net Philippe Bonal (France) Please,Not email > 25k without philb@blips.frmug.fr.net bonal_p@epita.fr inform me, No NeXT mail +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ From: stephen@clark.net (Stephen Balbach) Subject: Re: Linux Slowly Dying Off Date: 15 Oct 1993 20:29:08 -0400 >PUSH ON AND DONT LET THEM WIN. Who's THEM. WIN what? I don't mean to sound nit-picky but if history has proven anything there is plenty of room for competing technologies, in fact competition is the stimulas to make it all better. And when they hand out the goobie prizes when the winner wins, please mail mine I will be looking forward to it. Stephen -- Stephen Balbach . Clark Internet Services . Washington D.C./Balt. metro area . mail info@clark.net . FAX 410-730-9765 . Corp. accounts . Linux on Disk . 31 disks $45 . stephen@clark.net . voice 410-740-1157 ------------------------------ From: brettm@clark.net (Brett Michaels) Subject: Re: Don't need BogoMips Date: 16 Oct 1993 04:09:48 GMT While I know what a mip is, does anyone have a handle on how BogoMips relates to Xwindows and other system wide performance real ie. The 486sx seems a loy/a little fater than a 386sx? David E. Fox (root@Belvedere%hip-hop.suvl.ca.us) wrote: : Marko Klein (klein@informatik.uni-rostock.de) wrote: : : I have installed SLS 1.03 now and found the kernel computing BogoMips. : : I was not so happy about seeing that a benchmark is calculatet every time : : I boot linux because it's a waste of time (not too much but time is money). : I would advise leaving it in because I'm under the impression that : the linux kernel needs this loop to execute for calibration purposes. : : -- : : Email: klein@informatik.uni-rostock.de : : Paper mail: Marko Klein, Eutiner Str. 15, D-18109 Rostock : : --------------------------------------------------------------------------- : : "I never saw no military solution that did'nt always end up as something worse" : : Sting in "If I ever lose my faith in you" : -- : David Fox root@Belvedere%hip-hop.suvl.ca.us : 5479 Castle Manor Drive : San Jose, CA 95129 Thanks for letting me change : 408/253-7992 magnetic patterns on your hard disk. ------------------------------ From: bsa@kf8nh.wariat.org (Brandon S. Allbery) Subject: Re: Does Library code inhibit commercial software? Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1993 21:22:00 GMT In article <1993Oct16.000743.6476@omphalos.equinox.gen.nz> david@omphalos.equinox.gen.nz (David Liebert) writes: >I may be completely wrong, but wouldn't the Gnu Copyleft prohibit >binary distributions of commercial software for Linux? Nope. Most of the current Linux C library is protected by the GNU Library Public License, which allows linking to proprietary object files and therefore presents no legal difficulty. Those parts that are not will be in the future: some parts are being moved from GPL to GLPL, others are being replaced with GLPL'ed versions. I suspect the next libc release will be completely GLPL'ed (except for any parts which might be PD or be covered by e.g. BSD copyright). ++Brandon -- Brandon S. Allbery kf8nh@kf8nh.ampr.org bsa@kf8nh.wariat.org "MSDOS didn't get as bad as it is overnight -- it took over ten years of careful development." ---dmeggins@aix1.uottawa.ca ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is: Internet: Linux-Misc-Request@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.misc) via: Internet: Linux-Misc@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites: nic.funet.fi pub/OS/Linux tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux End of Linux-Misc Digest ******************************