From: Digestifier To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu Reply-To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu Date: Thu, 14 Oct 93 23:21:08 EDT Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #209 Linux-Misc Digest #209, Volume #1 Thu, 14 Oct 93 23:21:08 EDT Contents: Re: IMPORTANT: Island Office Package for Linux (Grant Edwards) >Re: *** PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE POSTING (Gareth Bult) Re: The %&#$@ speaks again -or- An apology (Steven Whitlatch) Re: ChatMUD 1.0 (Mark Buckaway) Re: Ab-initio under Linux; do you think it is feasible? (Bill Reynolds) Re: Hildesheim Open Programming Contest (Drinks All The Water) Re: The %&#$@ speaks again -or- An apology (Eric Youngdale) Re: [Announce] New util* packages uploaded (Arjan de Vet) Re: The %&#$@ speaks again -or- An apology (Marcus Daniels) Re: Slackware 1.04 Goof and Fix! (Ed H. Chi) Re: [Announce] New util* packages uploaded (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: grante@aquarius.rosemount.com (Grant Edwards) Subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Island Office Package for Linux Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1993 18:37:45 GMT Mark A. Davis (mark@taylor.wyvern.com) wrote: : Island is not even porting their Island Presents to SCO : (write/draw/paint IS available for SCO). I don't want to burst any : bubbles, but there is almost NO chance Island is going to port to : the tiny, tiny market of Linux (compared to SCO). I think Mark is right -- there's no way that Island is going to port their products to Linux. There isn't even an "offical" release of Linux to which a port could be done. I develop software for a living, and hitting a moving target is hard enough, but with Linux, there's no target at all. Don't get me wrong -- I think Linux is a great idea, and as soon as my SCSI controller and drive arrive, I'm going to give it a try! Why would a marketeer (they're the ones who decide such things) think that a large number (and I mean thousands) of Linux users would be willing to pay several hundred dollars for a word processor? Linux users as a group appear to be people who will go to great trouble to avoid paying dollar number one for software. (Nothing wrong with that, but let's face it -- the main reason alot of people have Linux instead of SCO or Interactive is Linux is FREE.) There is always more work than resources, and I doubt that the Linux market looks good enough to invest ten's of thousands of dollars to port a product. : COFF/Intel binary compatibility has to be the ONLY real hope.... : then the SCO version could be bought and run. And as has been : discussed in this group very recently, there are wonderful souls : working on this extremly noble task as we speak (not available now). Definitely! COFF/iBSC is the way to go. Compatiblity will mean access to a lot of commerical software for people interested in Island W/P/D or WP or 123 or whatever. -- Grant Edwards |Yow! One FISHWICH coming Rosemount Inc. |up!! | grante@rosemount.com | ------------------------------ From: gareth@gblinux.demon.co.uk (Gareth Bult) Subject: >Re: *** PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE POSTING Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1993 22:10:47 GMT On Wed, 13 Oct 93 21:00:23 GMT; ----Helmut Geyer (geyer@polyhymnia.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de) said: >The authority comes from the charter of the c.o.l.* hierarchy And the 'charter' is what exactly? Sorry, but you didn't answer the question. ------------------------------ From: swhitlat@nmt.edu (Steven Whitlatch) Subject: Re: The %&#$@ speaks again -or- An apology Date: 14 Oct 93 17:37:14 GMT In article kevin@frobozz.sccsi.com (Kevin Brown) writes: >Followups to comp.os.linux.misc. > >In article <1993Oct13.162636.8794@mulvey.com> rich@mulvey.com writes: >>Kevin Brown (kevin@frobozz.sccsi.com) wrote: [long thread, much deleted] > >>The morons who post things like "My smail doesn't work. >>What do I do?" have no place in any of these groups, or in society as >>a whole, for that matter, until they learn how to not waste other >>people's time. > >Welcome to the real world. :-) :-) > >Seriously, most people won't bother to learn more than they have to in >order to get the job done. If they did, then *everyone* would be >technologically literate. > >>Flaming the hell out of them is a useful memory-enhancing >>technique that makes them think twice before asking stupid >>questions again. > >Wrong. Flaming the hell out of them is a useful memory-enhancing technique >that makes them think twice before asking *any* question of the people they >asked before. You're ignoring a very basic principle of education: a question >is *never* a stupid question from the point of view of the person asking the >question. Very few people like to look stupid in front of other people. If >they're asking a question, it's because they DON'T KNOW HOW to get the answer >for themselves, or at the very least are very uncomfortable and uncertain >about it. > > An OS that is not easy to install and not easy to use simply stands a much smaller chance of being widely accepted. It is really no wonder that Microsoft dominates the software industry. If the more powerful OS's are also a great deal more trouble for the average user, well, you can guess which one they'll choose. The unfriendly attitude that newcomers sometimes encounter serves only to make Microsoft richer. Are Unix type OS's inherently difficult for programming user-friendly interfaces? I think not. So why the dominance of dos and ms-windows? The answer is the lack of user friendly interfaces for Unix systems. This is an issue that has been beat to death by the Society for Technical Communication. The question is: Do you want people to use Linux or not? Free software serves to help break the stranglehold that a few companies have developed in the software industry, but only when that free software can be used. If Joe Average (dos user) can't use Linux, for whatever reason, and dos/ms-windows comes pre-installed on his new PC, do you think he'll tolerate a mountain of trouble to run Linux, including insults? Steve Whitlatch swhitlat@prism.nmt.edu ------------------------------ From: mark@datasoft.com (Mark Buckaway) Subject: Re: ChatMUD 1.0 Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 02:29:40 GMT Mark Morley (morley@suncad.camosun.bc.ca) wrote: : W. Alan Krueger (krueger@atto.cs.umn.edu) wrote: : : Well, for a first attempt, you've done a very good job. I agree with this. Of the chat programs I have tried, this little gem is the best. : It's already up to 1.1 I added a news message file (/NEWS command), a : clear screen command (/CLS - only works on vt100's though), and a command : to change your prompt (/PROMPT). I also added a few more action verbs and : fixed some bugs. : Tomorrow I'm going to add a graffiti wall in the lobby where you can leave : a one-line message for others to read. That and an /EVICT command so you : can kick "nasty" people out of your room. Mark, if I may make a suggestion, move the action commands to a a text file. In this manner, adding action commands if as easy as running one's favorite editor. Mark -- ============================================================================== Mark Buckaway | root@datasoft.north.net | DataSoft Communications DataSoft Communications | uunorth!datasoft!root | 62 Rock Fernway System Administrator | Voice: +1 416 756 4497 | Willowdale, ON M2J 4N5 ============================================================================== "UNIX and OS/2 are operating systems. Windows is a shell, and DOS is an boot virus" ============================================================================== ------------------------------ From: bill@yossarian.ucsd.edu (Bill Reynolds) Crossposted-To: comp.lang.fortran Subject: Re: Ab-initio under Linux; do you think it is feasible? Date: 14 Oct 93 17:10:48 Reply-To: bill@goshawk.lanl.gov In article <1993Oct14.112627.24494@rulway.LeidenUniv.nl> frits@rulway.LeidenUniv.nl (Frits Daalmans) writes: My question is: Does anyone have experience with porting a large, numerically intensive, FORTRAN application to Linux, using the f2c/gcc tandem or g77? Do you consider it practical (i.e can you USE it) or did you find it was just "spielerei"? Can you share some of the problems you had compiling the application? (I can think of problems like having to link system dependent CPU timing or memory management routines in C to the package, or problems with compiling COMMON blocks, or problems with running the HUGE package on Linux which became only apparent after this large application was built, etc. etc.) I have been using Linux for about 8 months now to do some rather involved numerical computations (but not so involved that they couldn't be done on a 486 :-). I have had occasion to use many of the public domain F77-based numerical packages, including lsode, eispack and slatec. Although I typically write my code in C and link it to the f2c-translated routines, there is no reason why I couldn't (and many reasons why I should) just write everything in Fortran, and let f2c do all the work. I have yet to find a single problem that I cannot attribute to my own stupidity. With that in mind, I would say one of the biggest problems was that, initially, I was more willing to ascribe errors in programs I had written to the operating system rather than myself. At one point I actually filed a bug report on libc about core dumps in printf(). As it turned out, the code was bad; I was writing to unallocated memory, and Linux was doing the Right Thing: dumping core. Something, incidentally, that SunOS did *not* do. It happily let me scribble on memory and spit out garbage that it claimed was the answer. I did actually run into some fortran that f2c couldn't handle. In particular, some of the test driver routines for some of the BLAS packages made f2c ill. As I recall, they used some non-standard extensions (I think I reported this to the f2c maintainers and that's what they said. If anybody's interested, I can root around in my mail archives, and send it along). However, for anything that I've actually had to use (including the entire SLATEC library) f2c has worked like a champ. -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Bill Reynolds bill@goshawk.lanl.gov _____________________________________________________________________________ Out of circulation till the dogs get tired.... T. Waits ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: comp.unix.programmer,comp.graphics From: boutell@netcom.com (Drinks All The Water) Subject: Re: Hildesheim Open Programming Contest Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1993 17:55:52 GMT gerns@informatik.uni-hildesheim.de (Arnd Gerns) writes: > > Hildesheim Open Programming Contest > > Hildesheim, Germany > > January 28 - January 30 1994 ooOOOoo. A Linux At Large squad anyone? If you'd be willing to get on a team with me, send me mail. Decent C++ programmers only please, there's no room for "um what's a pointer?" in a 3- person squad. (My qualifications to lead this squad: I'm the author of the Internet C tutorial. Of course I'm a bum since it's been a long time since the 5th chapter, but moving across the continent had something to do with that. (: It won't be easy for me to afford to get there if we win, but one problem at a time!) -T -- i'll be under the floorboards with my face in the sun ------------------------------ From: eric@tantalus.nrl.navy.mil (Eric Youngdale) Subject: Re: The %&#$@ speaks again -or- An apology Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1993 23:43:32 GMT >The morons who post things like "My smail doesn't work. >What do I do?" have no place in any of these groups, or in society as >a whole, for that matter, until they learn how to not waste other >people's time. > >Flaming the hell out of them is a useful memory-enhancing >technique that makes them think twice before asking stupid >questions again. This is kind of like beating a child to stop him from peeing in his pants. The desired result is almost never achieved, but you are more likely to end up with a maladjusted child that will run away and/or beat his own children when he grows up. If the subtlety of that metaphor is beyond some people, then I suggest that all you accomplish by flaming the hell out of new users is to drive them away from linux and towards some commercial platform with friendly customer support and in the process create an enemy for life. Either that, or they will eventually grow up to be experienced users who will flame the hell out of the next generation of new users. We do not need any of this. Instead of flaming the new user, why not just send a polite note telling them to consult the FAQ or read the manual. Even better, why not just answer the damn question at the same time. You will make a friend for yourself and for linux. This does of course assume that you wish to have friends. If the new user flames you back, just ignore it. It is most unfortunate that some users choose to exercise their rights to free speech in such a harsh manner - if this were commercial software then employees who berate customers in such ways would be fired. Unfortunately this is USENET, and anyone can say more or less anything they want. New users need to realize that there are a few people who will say unkind things, and they should try and ignore flames like this and try to keep it all in perspective. I should add in passing that I do not condone new users asking FAQ in the non-c.o.l.help newsgroups, but this in no way excuses flaming them for their ignorance. -Eric -- "The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And lines to code before I sleep, And lines to code before I sleep." ------------------------------ From: devet@adv.win.tue.nl (Arjan de Vet) Subject: Re: [Announce] New util* packages uploaded Date: 14 Oct 1993 20:06:14 +0100 In article , Zeyd M. Ben-Halim wrote: >In article <29c0ad$ddq@samba.oit.unc.edu> Rik Faith writes: >>The following packages are available from: >> This is a distribution of all those (Linux-specific) programs that >> "belong" in /etc: >> >> agetty clock ctrlaltdel dmesg doshell fastboot fasthalt fdformat fdisk >> frag fsck fsck.minix halt ipcrm ipcs kbdrate makehole mkfs mkswap >> mount ramsize rdev reboot rootflags setfdprm setserial shutdown >> simpleinit swapdev swapon sync syslogd update vidmode > >Aren't most of these supposed to move to new digs at /sbin? Yes, according to the first drafts of the Linux Activists FSSTND channel and it makes /etc much more managable as I found out after moving the binaries from /etc to /sbin (my /etc fits on one screen with `ls' now :-). Arjan -- Arjan de Vet (home) Eindhoven University of Technology, the Netherlands (work) ------------------------------ From: marcus@ursula.ee.pdx.edu (Marcus Daniels) Subject: Re: The %&#$@ speaks again -or- An apology Date: 14 Oct 93 10:51:39 GMT eric@tantalus.nrl.navy.mil (Eric Youngdale) writes: >>The morons who post things like "My smail doesn't work. >>What do I do?" have no place in any of these groups, or in society as >>a whole, for that matter, until they learn how to not waste other >>people's time. >> >>Flaming the hell out of them is a useful memory-enhancing >>technique that makes them think twice before asking stupid >>questions again. > This is kind of like beating a child to stop him from peeing in his >pants. The desired result is almost never achieved, but you are more likely to >end up with a maladjusted child that will run away and/or beat his own >children when he grows up. > If the subtlety of that metaphor is beyond some people, then I suggest >that all you accomplish by flaming the hell out of new users is to drive them >away from linux and towards some commercial platform with friendly customer >support and in the process create an enemy for life. Either that, or they will >eventually grow up to be experienced users who will flame the hell out of the >next generation of new users. We do not need any of this. The metaphor is only occasionally accurate. I have no data to back this up other than my own experience, but Linux users seem to be considerably less appreciation of the cause than, say, FSF folks. Linux, and other more public-domain-type-software, seems to cultivate a mean spirited, selfish kind of laziness. I confess I'd be more likely to post to a GNU newsgroup, send the FSF donations, etc. because I sense greater stability there, and an awareness it costs money to make software. ------------------------------ From: ehhchi@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Ed H. Chi) Subject: Re: Slackware 1.04 Goof and Fix! Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1993 02:42:49 GMT >>>What is the official ftp site and directory for the Slackware distribution? >>> > >>It's ftp.cdrom.com: /pub/linux/slackware. > >>I've seen this question at least 5 times in the last couple of days. >>Does it qualify as a Frequently Asked Question yet? > >No way, I read "How to remove Lilo?" about 20 times before it was >included in the FAQ... :-) No way, I read "how to remove lilo?" about 100 times after it was included in the FAQ... :) -- o/ \ / \ / / \o email: ehhchi@epx.cis.umn.edu /# ##o # o## #\ chi@mermaid.micro.umn.edu / \ / \ /o\ / |\ / \ Dumping messy-dos, running Linux! ------------------------------ From: zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) Subject: Re: [Announce] New util* packages uploaded Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1993 01:52:41 GMT In article <29k7v6$lk@adv.win.tue.nl> devet@adv.win.tue.nl (Arjan de Vet) writes: >In article , >Zeyd M. Ben-Halim wrote: > >>In article <29c0ad$ddq@samba.oit.unc.edu> Rik Faith writes: >>>The following packages are available from: >>> This is a distribution of all those (Linux-specific) programs that >>> "belong" in /etc: >>> >>> agetty clock ctrlaltdel dmesg doshell fastboot fasthalt fdformat fdisk >>> frag fsck fsck.minix halt ipcrm ipcs kbdrate makehole mkfs mkswap >>> mount ramsize rdev reboot rootflags setfdprm setserial shutdown >>> simpleinit swapdev swapon sync syslogd update vidmode >> >>Aren't most of these supposed to move to new digs at /sbin? > >Yes, according to the first drafts of the Linux Activists FSSTND channel >and it makes /etc much more managable as I found out after moving the >binaries from /etc to /sbin (my /etc fits on one screen with `ls' now :-). Maybe somebody ought to tell Rik :-) or even better maybe the FSSTND people could keep the rest of the world of what is going on! Good work Rik, keep it up. >Arjan > >-- >Arjan de Vet (home) >Eindhoven University of Technology, the Netherlands (work) -- --- Zeyd M. Ben-Halim zmbenhal@netcom.com 10479 1/4 Santa Monica Blvd, LA, CA, 90025 (310) 470-0281 ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is: Internet: Linux-Misc-Request@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.misc) via: Internet: Linux-Misc@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites: nic.funet.fi pub/OS/Linux tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux End of Linux-Misc Digest ******************************